I learned this in 1988 when I read Greg LeMond's Complete Book Of Cycling published in 1987. I also learned from him how to 'spin'. Nice video for those don't know how to adjust bearings.
yeah, definitely old knowledge, and it's out there in plenty of places. However I'd not seen a video of a decent way to check this, and since I'd knocked my head against it several times (having had to set the initial preload on more than a dozen hand-built wheels for the weird carbon fiber recumbents I make, as well as maintain other bikes) I figured I'd share my method. I should do another one showing how to check this when the wheel is in the frame, which also gets to the point of proper tensioning of the quick releases.
Thank you for posting this vid. It makes complete sense & I understand its purpose, function, how to do it, etc. I've made some by super glueing some 3/8" ID hole 1 1/2" OD fender washers together (4 for each one/side) & they'll work, can always add more if need to be thicker. Ironically, on my way to get those last night, I stopped at the local bike co-op, & talked to the main/lead mechanic about your vid here. He told me both his grandpa & Dad had made these & used them, was familiar with them & understood them, etc. I kind of asked him if they were willing to just let me cut the rear dropouts off of one of their junk frames that they'll wind up throwing away for this & he kind of just didn't answer, somewhat laughed under his breath & walked away. I went & got/bought the fender washers. Then this morning it hit me, I'm transferring all the parts off of an old '80s road bike frame & fork I've got to another old '80s road bike frame & fork, 'cause the 1st one got bent/destroyed running into something. Duh, there are my rear dropouts, just waiting for me, smh..., 🤦♂️😉 Time to get that transfer done & get out the angle grinder! 👍 Thanks for sharing the knowledge though, it's not something I had 100% completely realized, & it makes perfect sense! I plan on making my wheels/hubs last as long as possible, & this, was the missing tidbit of knowledge that makes that completely possible & realistic. I might wind up being a prifessional wheel builder too, time will tell, & money, but if nothing else, I definitely plan on at least making a couple sets for myself, for real! Anyway, later, & thanks again, ✌️..., 🙂
Seepage showed that oil was separating from the OEM grease in my front hub. Before repacking, I opened it to see if there was measurable wear on the balls. An allen wrench wouldn't hold my quick-release hub, but I discovered something better. The threads between the cone and the axle were dry. When I repacked, I degreased the axle and the cone. I found that the axle threads had a rough black coating. Friction would keep the axle from turning when the threads outboard of the cone were greased and the locknut screwed down. To reassemble, I slipped a 12-inch vinyl tube over the axle to keep the threads dry as I packed grease. The difference in friction between dry and greased threads meant that my adjustments wouldn't slip. I like your idea for using the skewer without mounting the wheel. It's quicker, and I can check axle rotation and play with my fingertips. Instead of drilling, I stacked washers. Sure enough, I had to back off my original adjustment about 30 degrees. Thanks.
Seth..great idea with the aluminum blocks..generally when you are adjusting a cup and cone bearing you want to make sure that the drive side cone is firmly locked in place and make all adjustments from the non drive side.. If a bearing is loose on the drive side the hub will tend to tighten itself as you ride..if it's loose on non drive side it will tend to loosen..( less catastrophic damage) on many older British bicycle axles there is a small shoulder that fixes the drive side hub..this is the reason that the fixed cup on the BB is on the right side.. On front wheels make sure cone is locked on right side (drive side) and make adjustment on non drive side..
Interesting. I usually work the drive side on rear wheels because I am usually doing a single initial setup or maint, which for me includes packing the freehub with grease at the same time. (Have never been able to figure out how to remove the inside seal on these M8000s though, which sucks, I can get a non XT Deore to be silent by removing seal, heating freehub body with heat gun and dripping in Phils tenacious...) Never considered the rotation if loose. OTOH I check the bearings for play pretty regularly and they seem to stay put after I crank them sufficiently. Part of me prefers cartridge bearings, but I have had some wheels with those turn into crazy jobs when manufacturers used high-strength loctite on one side and (possibly) reverse threads so it became impossible to pull the cartridge.
Not Flexes, it Compresses/Squashes makes the axle shorter. HTH Yours is a Very good method. well done. I use a home made wheel truing stand when adjusting the bearings on mine, but then again I like building my own wheels and have one readily available. You can also use your method of aluminium blocks to check the pre-load on sealed bearing hubs. P.S. Only do this on QR axles, solid/bolt on doesn't have this problem so set them without any play.
Very helpful. The idea of making the drilled aluminum blocks is brilliant. I'll make a pair. I too would like to know if this 'tightening' also applies to solid threaded axles that accept a nut.
While the blocks are a good idea, the implementation of their use as shown in the video is wrong, or at least inefficient. You only need one block; Stein Tool has been making these for decades. Actually, you don't even need a block. I do this on the bike. On a freehub rear wheel, you put the quick release skewer in with the lever on the freehub side, and clamp that side into the left rear dropout. Then make the adjustment on the non-drive side cone. The skewer is already adding the compression, so you adjust it until there is no play. Done. The only time you need the Stein tool or a separate block is when the outer dropout design prevents the wheel from being clamped to the frame outboard of the dropout.
Thanks very much for replying, especially after so long a time. I'll give your method a try. To anyone else who arrives here looking for a solution, a stack of plain, flat 'fender washers' might suffice instead of the blocks, drilling, etc. Thanks again.@@trekkeruss
Is this the case with both aluminum and steel axles? I cant imagine the quick release skewer can bend the steel axle enough to make the bearings tighter. Maybe with aluminum.
steel. You might not imagine QRs could flex the axle, but it's real (and very well known...) It absolutely flexes the axle enough to make a difference in bearing preload -- as shown in the video! Not setting it correctly can be the difference between getting 500 miles out of a hub or a lifetime of use.
It is not "bending" the axle. What is happening is that the quick release is compressing the cones and locknuts on the threads of the axle. The threads have a minute amount of play in themselves; if they did not, it would be impossible to thread parts together.
Seth thank you for this video! I’ve been trying to figure out why my wheel feels perfect out of the frame and spins way too slowly in the frame. Any chance I could pay you to make a pair of those blocks and ship them to me (Utah)? Or suggest what I could buy? Googling has gotten me nowhere. Thanks.
You don't have a drill press? A set of metric bits is fairly cheap on Amazon, and a strip of 1/4" thick aluminum would do the trick. (I use 3/8", I think, a bit easier to grab, but I had excess aluminum left over from a project.)
@@SethJayson great timing! I just watched a Park Tool video where they showed using wrenches to do the same thing so I'm going to give that a shot. Thanks! (no drill press at home for me).
Ref too tight from the factory, I believe they do that because there is a break-in period for hubs during which they wear rapidly when first put in service. Also, according to Jobst Brandt, on Sheldon Brown website, all bearings should have a small amount of preload to last the longest, which means they probably won't pendulm as Sheldon suggests!
Whether they "pedulum" or not is a pretty bad way to try and judge bearing preload anyway. Addition of a tire and tube will change that, or the existence or lack of hub end cap seals, or even just greasing those. The method here is = to Park, and the "preload" is provided by the clamping force of the skewer, because it it's already provided by the hug adjustment, it'll be too tight. They come too tight from the factory because the factory expects a mechanic to adjust them properly before sending the bike out the door. (Same reason frame pieces need checking, facing, etc.)
I have a little play on my FH QC 500 ms like barely noticeable only if you really focus your hand on it, is it normal or do they have to be completely tight?
With the QR done up tightly, that play should disappear. Try tightening the nut to get the QR to put a bit more pressure on, but if that doesn't do it, it may need adjusting to work as shown in this vid. Play with no QR or very lightly applied, but should disappear when QR is done tightly for riding.
No...on a solid axle when you are tightening it you actually are loosening the hub..on QR wheel you set it little loose and on a solid axle a little tight..I hope this helps..
Strange how we think we have it correct and then when we tighten the quick release it over tightens the cones. It must somehow apply a slight extra pressure to the cones.
The locknuts tighten and flex everything, so yup! I had a rear wheel come on a brand new bike from a bike shop and they didn't check this and the cups in the hub were destroyed after only 1,500 miles or so, so it pays to get this right. They'll last pretty much forever if you do.
How should the wheel be checked at the rim for play? Usual recommendation is to lift the wheel from the ground and push the rim side to side with one hand only. What could be done if there is no play when checking with one hand and some play when twisting the rim with both hand from opposite sides? Also there can be some play when the wheel is on the ground. Another thing is sometimes it's hard to leave right amount of play before tightening the qr sqever. If there is too little play then the qr sqever might not hold the wheel in the dropouts sufficiently enough. One more thing is if the dropouts are not completely parallel then they can now the axle creating uneven play compared to dummy dropouts, so then one has no other choice but to over tighten the qr sqever. Cartridge bearings never seem to develop uneven play but there seems to be some uneven freehub drag for some reason if the qr sqever is tightened sufficiently enough.
My biggest question is what bearings to get Chrome Steel, Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel and what grade G25, G10 or G3? I have Chrome Steel G25 but thinking there is a better option what is your view?
lolz -- you should alert Campi and Shimano then so they can swap it out of their flagship lines. It'll outlast anything else if set up correctly, and it's easy to swap bearings with basic tools. I have plenty of cartridge bearing hubs on allegedly higher-end wheels, and I'd usually rather have cup and cone any day of the week, though don't ask me that while I'm wrestling with getting one to the perfect preload. Some of those cartridge bearing hubs require a blind-hole bearing puller, and for one, I had to fabricate a reverse-thread race press to pull the bearing. Even the manufacturer (velocity) couldn't tell me which way the thread went on the older axle. Pulling or pressing out cartridge bearings even with my regular threaded puller and drifts is always nerve-wracking. Get them in crooked and goodbye hub. I don't think it's any easier or less time consuming, though it used to seem that way when I was a lousier mechanic and couldn't dial in cup and cone quickly.
I learned this in 1988 when I read Greg LeMond's Complete Book Of Cycling published in 1987. I also learned from him how to 'spin'. Nice video for those don't know how to adjust bearings.
yeah, definitely old knowledge, and it's out there in plenty of places. However I'd not seen a video of a decent way to check this, and since I'd knocked my head against it several times (having had to set the initial preload on more than a dozen hand-built wheels for the weird carbon fiber recumbents I make, as well as maintain other bikes) I figured I'd share my method. I should do another one showing how to check this when the wheel is in the frame, which also gets to the point of proper tensioning of the quick releases.
Thank you for posting this vid. It makes complete sense & I understand its purpose, function, how to do it, etc. I've made some by super glueing some 3/8" ID hole 1 1/2" OD fender washers together (4 for each one/side) & they'll work, can always add more if need to be thicker. Ironically, on my way to get those last night, I stopped at the local bike co-op, & talked to the main/lead mechanic about your vid here. He told me both his grandpa & Dad had made these & used them, was familiar with them & understood them, etc. I kind of asked him if they were willing to just let me cut the rear dropouts off of one of their junk frames that they'll wind up throwing away for this & he kind of just didn't answer, somewhat laughed under his breath & walked away. I went & got/bought the fender washers. Then this morning it hit me, I'm transferring all the parts off of an old '80s road bike frame & fork I've got to another old '80s road bike frame & fork, 'cause the 1st one got bent/destroyed running into something. Duh, there are my rear dropouts, just waiting for me, smh..., 🤦♂️😉
Time to get that transfer done & get out the angle grinder! 👍
Thanks for sharing the knowledge though, it's not something I had 100% completely realized, & it makes perfect sense! I plan on making my wheels/hubs last as long as possible, & this, was the missing tidbit of knowledge that makes that completely possible & realistic. I might wind up being a prifessional wheel builder too, time will tell, & money, but if nothing else, I definitely plan on at least making a couple sets for myself, for real!
Anyway, later, & thanks again, ✌️..., 🙂
Seepage showed that oil was separating from the OEM grease in my front hub. Before repacking, I opened it to see if there was measurable wear on the balls. An allen wrench wouldn't hold my quick-release hub, but I discovered something better. The threads between the cone and the axle were dry. When I repacked, I degreased the axle and the cone. I found that the axle threads had a rough black coating. Friction would keep the axle from turning when the threads outboard of the cone were greased and the locknut screwed down. To reassemble, I slipped a 12-inch vinyl tube over the axle to keep the threads dry as I packed grease. The difference in friction between dry and greased threads meant that my adjustments wouldn't slip. I like your idea for using the skewer without mounting the wheel. It's quicker, and I can check axle rotation and play with my fingertips. Instead of drilling, I stacked washers. Sure enough, I had to back off my original adjustment about 30 degrees. Thanks.
Excellent ! Love the dropout blocks, will certainly make a set thx
Thanks, this was very helpful!
Seth..great idea with the aluminum blocks..generally when you are adjusting a cup and cone bearing you want to make sure that the drive side cone is firmly locked in place and make all adjustments from the non drive side..
If a bearing is loose on the drive side the hub will tend to tighten itself as you ride..if it's loose on non drive side it will tend to loosen..( less catastrophic damage) on many older British bicycle axles there is a small shoulder that fixes the drive side hub..this is the reason that the fixed cup on the BB is on the right side..
On front wheels make sure cone is locked on right side (drive side) and make adjustment on non drive side..
Interesting. I usually work the drive side on rear wheels because I am usually doing a single initial setup or maint, which for me includes packing the freehub with grease at the same time. (Have never been able to figure out how to remove the inside seal on these M8000s though, which sucks, I can get a non XT Deore to be silent by removing seal, heating freehub body with heat gun and dripping in Phils tenacious...) Never considered the rotation if loose. OTOH I check the bearings for play pretty regularly and they seem to stay put after I crank them sufficiently. Part of me prefers cartridge bearings, but I have had some wheels with those turn into crazy jobs when manufacturers used high-strength loctite on one side and (possibly) reverse threads so it became impossible to pull the cartridge.
Thanks, I was searching for exactly this
Not Flexes, it Compresses/Squashes makes the axle shorter.
HTH
Yours is a Very good method. well done.
I use a home made wheel truing stand when adjusting the bearings on mine, but then again I like building my own wheels and have one readily available.
You can also use your method of aluminium blocks to check the pre-load on sealed bearing hubs.
P.S.
Only do this on QR axles, solid/bolt on doesn't have this problem so set them without any play.
I build wheels too but my stand is plastic fork ends, so useless for hub adjustments.
Very helpful. The idea of making the drilled aluminum blocks is brilliant. I'll make a pair. I too would like to know if this 'tightening' also applies to solid threaded axles that accept a nut.
I did the same thing with some hard wood. Perfect!
Really good idea! 💚
While the blocks are a good idea, the implementation of their use as shown in the video is wrong, or at least inefficient. You only need one block; Stein Tool has been making these for decades. Actually, you don't even need a block. I do this on the bike. On a freehub rear wheel, you put the quick release skewer in with the lever on the freehub side, and clamp that side into the left rear dropout. Then make the adjustment on the non-drive side cone. The skewer is already adding the compression, so you adjust it until there is no play. Done. The only time you need the Stein tool or a separate block is when the outer dropout design prevents the wheel from being clamped to the frame outboard of the dropout.
Thanks very much for replying, especially after so long a time. I'll give your method a try. To anyone else who arrives here looking for a solution, a stack of plain, flat 'fender washers' might suffice instead of the blocks, drilling, etc. Thanks again.@@trekkeruss
Thank you, very helpful!
Hit up 4:00 if you want to get straight to the sound/play I get from adjusted bearings.
Is this the case with both aluminum and steel axles? I cant imagine the quick release skewer can bend the steel axle enough to make the bearings tighter. Maybe with aluminum.
steel. You might not imagine QRs could flex the axle, but it's real (and very well known...) It absolutely flexes the axle enough to make a difference in bearing preload -- as shown in the video! Not setting it correctly can be the difference between getting 500 miles out of a hub or a lifetime of use.
It is not "bending" the axle. What is happening is that the quick release is compressing the cones and locknuts on the threads of the axle. The threads have a minute amount of play in themselves; if they did not, it would be impossible to thread parts together.
Seth thank you for this video! I’ve been trying to figure out why my wheel feels perfect out of the frame and spins way too slowly in the frame.
Any chance I could pay you to make a pair of those blocks and ship them to me (Utah)? Or suggest what I could buy? Googling has gotten me nowhere. Thanks.
You don't have a drill press? A set of metric bits is fairly cheap on Amazon, and a strip of 1/4" thick aluminum would do the trick. (I use 3/8", I think, a bit easier to grab, but I had excess aluminum left over from a project.)
@@SethJayson great timing! I just watched a Park Tool video where they showed using wrenches to do the same thing so I'm going to give that a shot. Thanks! (no drill press at home for me).
@@SethJayson You can also use some 10mm flat washers stacked on each side.
OR some m10X10mm bonnet stand offs/spacers, I've used both before.
Ref too tight from the factory, I believe they do that because there is a break-in period for hubs during which they wear rapidly when first put in service. Also, according to Jobst Brandt, on Sheldon Brown website, all bearings should have a small amount of preload to last the longest, which means they probably won't pendulm as Sheldon suggests!
Whether they "pedulum" or not is a pretty bad way to try and judge bearing preload anyway. Addition of a tire and tube will change that, or the existence or lack of hub end cap seals, or even just greasing those. The method here is = to Park, and the "preload" is provided by the clamping force of the skewer, because it it's already provided by the hug adjustment, it'll be too tight. They come too tight from the factory because the factory expects a mechanic to adjust them properly before sending the bike out the door. (Same reason frame pieces need checking, facing, etc.)
I have a little play on my FH QC 500 ms like barely noticeable only if you really focus your hand on it, is it normal or do they have to be completely tight?
With the QR done up tightly, that play should disappear. Try tightening the nut to get the QR to put a bit more pressure on, but if that doesn't do it, it may need adjusting to work as shown in this vid. Play with no QR or very lightly applied, but should disappear when QR is done tightly for riding.
Update: my bike shop switched it up to a fh mt401. The bearing cartridge decided to spontaneously fail after a couple days. It was bent very slightly
*_Does this apply to solid nut axle?_*
No...on a solid axle when you are tightening it you actually are loosening the hub..on QR wheel you set it little loose and on a solid axle a little tight..I hope this helps..
@@sprocketandwheel I have a solid axle thanks for the advice
Strange how we think we have it correct and then when we tighten the quick release it over tightens the cones. It must somehow apply a slight extra pressure to the cones.
The locknuts tighten and flex everything, so yup! I had a rear wheel come on a brand new bike from a bike shop and they didn't check this and the cups in the hub were destroyed after only 1,500 miles or so, so it pays to get this right. They'll last pretty much forever if you do.
How should the wheel be checked at the rim for play? Usual recommendation is to lift the wheel from the ground and push the rim side to side with one hand only. What could be done if there is no play when checking with one hand and some play when twisting the rim with both hand from opposite sides? Also there can be some play when the wheel is on the ground. Another thing is sometimes it's hard to leave right amount of play before tightening the qr sqever. If there is too little play then the qr sqever might not hold the wheel in the dropouts sufficiently enough.
One more thing is if the dropouts are not completely parallel then they can now the axle creating uneven play compared to dummy dropouts, so then one has no other choice but to over tighten the qr sqever. Cartridge bearings never seem to develop uneven play but there seems to be some uneven freehub drag for some reason if the qr sqever is tightened sufficiently enough.
My biggest question is what bearings to get Chrome Steel, Carbon Steel or Stainless Steel and what grade G25, G10 or G3? I have Chrome Steel G25 but thinking there is a better option what is your view?
I don't think I have ever used anything but G25s.
@@SethJayson Why surely they would cause more wear on your cups and cones? Have you ever tried ceramic lose bearings in a cup and cone?
@@paulb9769 DON'T! The ceramic bearings WILL destroy the cup and cone as they're not hard enough and it is almost impossible to replace the cups.
Can the cassette put pressure on these if overtightened. My free hub is making a crunching noise since I last tightened it up.
I've never experienced any difference in axle bearing preload as a result of cassette lockring tightening.
Just put the wheel on the bike tight bearing and you done
The right amount of play for this technology is the distance to the trash can.
lolz -- you should alert Campi and Shimano then so they can swap it out of their flagship lines. It'll outlast anything else if set up correctly, and it's easy to swap bearings with basic tools. I have plenty of cartridge bearing hubs on allegedly higher-end wheels, and I'd usually rather have cup and cone any day of the week, though don't ask me that while I'm wrestling with getting one to the perfect preload. Some of those cartridge bearing hubs require a blind-hole bearing puller, and for one, I had to fabricate a reverse-thread race press to pull the bearing. Even the manufacturer (velocity) couldn't tell me which way the thread went on the older axle. Pulling or pressing out cartridge bearings even with my regular threaded puller and drifts is always nerve-wracking. Get them in crooked and goodbye hub. I don't think it's any easier or less time consuming, though it used to seem that way when I was a lousier mechanic and couldn't dial in cup and cone quickly.
cup and cone is not for OCD person 😂
Or is it PERFECT for the obsessed?