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The Lord Of The Rings VS The Wheel Of Time
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2024
- Which fantasy series comes out on top? The Lord Of The Rings VS The Wheel of Time.
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What VS video should I do next??
Malazan VS ASOIAF!
Stormlight vs GoT since both are unfinished. but there will definitely be butt hurt fans on both sides
The Witcher VS ASOIAF
Witcher Vs LoTR
ASOIAF vs FIrst Law (but only when you read the standalones).
Something I love about the Lord of the Rings is that it completely side-steps the "chosen one" trope. It's explicitly stated that Bilbo finding the ring was an accident that nobody expected including the ring itself
Aragorn?
@@333pinkelephant333 Aragorn is not the main character. Also he is not "chosen" the way Rand is, he just happens to be the available heir at the right time. There are no prophecies regarding Aragorn, the famous poem all that is gold does not glitter is written by Bilbo.
Not entirely accurate. All things that occur were sung in the song of creation and are contained in the mind of Illuvatar. All things occur according to his will in the end. In which case Bilbo and Frodo were both meant to have the ring. It is a minor subversion of the trope though.
@@adamplentl5588 Well if everything is prophecy then it's not really a chosen one in a particular sense.
@@dpolaristar4634 not everything is prophecy per we but the LOTR setting is deterministic.
me, clutching my Return of the King book,
“it better win”
Mason Allott really🤪
I got silmarillion in my lap lmao
Fëanáro Curufinwë no offense to any WOT fans, but this video wasn’t worth the breath it took to begin.
@@kenobi5230 The Sil is Tolkien’s greatest achievement IMHO.
In the words of Anakin Sandwalker, "This is where the fun begins"
How to start a nerd knife fight, compare Lord of the rings to wheel of Time
Skywalker
@@marc4art7 That was intentional
Lol right
More like Anak in Sandhater
he's finally gone and made it people, living for this incoming controversy
nah m8 u just a h8r gindalf would kill Rand easily with his spells you know nufin
Obviously we have to settle this with a RUclipsr boxing match! It’s the 2019 way.
I'm willing to be the referee
I don't even know what spells Gandalf could do based on the text within the Lord of the Rings books.
@@michaelsauls1142 Self-Revive is pretty OP.
@@DanielGreeneReviews Boxing is so 2018. MMA it is, the Octagon awaits!
On readability: Readers who experience their introduction to fantasy told with modern voice often struggle with LOTR. Those who read Tolkien first or at a younger age are less likely to. In fact, they might even enjoy the more elegant prose - not a dig at Jordan - from the experience.
I think I'm safe when I say Tolkien is the superior wordsmith. But then Mozart is a superior composer to John Lennon. Both are great, but....
Well, it certainly fits for me. I read LotR for the first time at 11 years or something like that.
Read LoTR when I was in the 3rd grade. Had a tremendous influence on my tastes and grasp of prose. Kids are capable, we just don't push them to explore their own language.
It's sad.
@@palarious same. I read The Hobbit first in second grade and that set me on the path. Had LOTR finished by the end of 5th. Even had the school librarian try and disuade me from LOTR because of my age. Has has an incalculable impact on my tastes.
Though I must say I really dig some of the modern grimdark authors like Joe Abercrombie. Im glad I started with Tolkien so I could really grasp the evolution of the genre.
@@adamplentl5588 I haven't heard of him. What's the scoop? I'm always looking for new stories
@@tyrelfroese3340 funny that you mention it, as Guy Gavriel Kay is the only other author to write a text that is consider Middle-Erth cannon (as far as cannon even applies to Legendarium)
When I first finished LoTR, I unintentionally started speaking with a hint of Tolkien's writing style for like a month after.
I know the feeling. I read LotR in English (not a native speaker) for the first time in the summer holidays between 7th and 8th grade (if I remember correctly). When I got back my first english essay the following school year my teacher was a little baffled 😂
Me 2
As you should
Wait, it stopped for you after a month? I figured it was permanent after half a year. Then I got a third of the way into the WoT and started talking like Nynaeve on top of that, pretty soon my speech will be completely unintelligible.
@@michaelcherokee8906 dang, sounds rough. I wouldn't mind if the classy Tolkien speach as permanent though
Lord of the Rings was one of my introductions into Fantasy in the mid 70s, Wheel of time is one of my top 3 but I have to go with my first love here
only Asoiaf and maybe lovecraft is up there with lotr for me. But Asoiaf is unfinished as of yet and Lovecraft isnt one overarching story but they are all connected.
@@Blackhawk211 i think in malazan can be compared with lotr but i don't know if it surpasses it
The Silmarillion - aka "How to Build a World"
It would be odd if Tolkien's magic system were spelled out, since his books are from the perspective of races that don't use magic.
Greg Camp, good point.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.
What magic system
After Lord of the Rings, people want another one. The first book of Wheel of Time was like the Fellowship of the Rings. But then it starts to take its own direction. For that, I say LOR is the foundation which all future fantasy comes after, WOT sets another standard of what fantasy can be.
I am '87 born and i found Lotr more smooth to read... I found the experience to be magical. I did not feel like skipping anything. Each thing savoured deeply. Lotr is satisfying... WoT is great in some aspects, especially character... But it is very nervous, anxiety feeling, swagger (Aeil), heroism, but rarely brings the Peace that flows through Lotr... Which is a Master Work in my opinion
The WOT books have a more modern prose (not always an issue with a well realized fantasy), but I could have done without the 60 times braids were tugged, or the 123 times skirts were smoothed, let alone the arms crossed/folded beneath breasts, and ears boxed.
I am however totally down with the 49 times mustaches were knuckled though.
Merillin vs Bashere is the only real competition here
On average thats only 1 braid tugged every 150+ pages though. It's really not that bad as people make it out to be.
It’s like all the female characters are based on one woman. Some of them just have slightly different ideas.
At least I don't have to read guys singing every 100 pages.
Wool-headed sheepherder 🙄
Lord of the rings in my opinion still has a richer sharper story because it's not as long as WoT that at times gets muddled down. Also it came first so it could not improve upon itself which is what other writers tried to do, make something like LoTR but better or flip it on its head. So I'd have to give it to LoTR it is a blue print to fantasy writers in my opinion.
Well, couldn't it be argued that he in fact tried to improve upon an even older story? The Art(h)urian legend? Arthur(Aragorn), Merlin(Gandalf).. But i agree that LoTR still is the "blue print" to modern fantasy, even though i -think- it could be said that it's still based on another blue print.
I found this channel like 3 days ago and THIS IS THE DREAM CONTENT
It gets better!
Okay same (like a week ago)!
Reminder, all of these points have different values depending on the reader! One point will be worth more. Depending on who YOU are. You choose the winner based off your preferences.
For me lotr is better just a reminder this is only my opinion
LotR to seems to me more like old time faerie tale, while WoT is a personal journey. In the LotR books you have next to zero first person perspectives. You get very little on what a character is thinking, you get what you get through being a passive observer. In WoT most of the story is through the thoughts and feelings of the characters. LotR is tale being told. WoT is a life being lived.
Agree
Agree with your points, however for me LoTR will always be more amazing. Mainly just because when i consider the fact that it was the first, the original. Wheel of Time is my favourite series of all time.. but it would not exist without the foundation that Tolkien laid...
LOTR was the first and the "original" that inspired all others, and we have to pay proper respect for that, of course. But putting that aside, WoT has more content; more complexity; characters are way better developed and their interactions with one another are more profound. Each major and minor character ends up having their own plot and climax. I think RJ had way more time to sculpt his masterpiece , and way more fantasies books to take inspiration from and make examples out of.... All in all.... Yes, LoTR is a historic masterpiece, but if i had to pick a BETTER BOOK (the content, and not the book's impact in history), id pick WoT .
- My opinion based on the fact that i've read LOTR 3 times and WoT only 1 time (it is too long to read it frequently).
- WoT has a better ending.
- I think Stormlight arching from Sanderson also has the capacity to surpass LOTR once it's finished.
@Craig Rideout truly the way she goes when you die before it's done lol
Once you get past the Shire, I feel like the readability of LOTR goes way up. I really struggled with it as a teen, burned out on it big. But when I was like 23 I reread it and found it to be both GORGEOUS and easy to read.
i mean. i think Lord of the Rings is definitely more readable, not just because of size, (although that alone would be enough for me) but also because while the language is definitely older, Tolkien is an absolute wordsmith. his prose requires more concentration, but it’s absolutely gorgeous and pulls you in in a way WOT just can’t. that’s like half of why his worldbuilding feels so real to me. can you imagine how flat middle earth would feel described with modern prose? i know the last half of that isn’t as much about readability, but still i read all of LOTR when i was 11 or 12 in weeks, and it took me years to get past the first book of WOT. Tolkien’s words just suck you (or me at least lol) into the story. also, LOTR is much better paced. WOT drags so much in certain parts of the story, which is a product of its length, and even though it pays off on the end it was nearly impossible for me to get through.
I'm a huge LOTR buff, and the winner for me is obviously LOTR, but that doesn't negate all the amazing things that WOT has got going for it, I think it just depends on which you personally grew up on and have the most nostalgia with, bc every time I hear Daniel talk about WOT, I feel the exact same only in reference to LOTR instead lol
Anyone else find that the Lord of the Rings becomes more readable the further you go? I struggled at first and over time began to like and finally be in awe of it.
Lord Of The Rings was my youth, back in 1974. I skipped endless classes to get through the books faster.
I didn’t discover Wheel Of Time until 1992, by which time I was raising 4 children. For me, there’s no way to objectively compare the content. They were both perfect reading for the times at which I read them.
Their respective personal impacts boiled down to this: There was no way I could read LOTR to my children as bedtime books. I tried a couple of times, the attempts just pissed them off. But they adored WOT.
That’s got to be the most singularly subjective measure I’ve ever heard of, but… One of the children I read to sleep with tales of Rand, Loial, Perrin and Matt, in the 90’s, sent me the link to this video today.
If I’d never had children, this would be an impossible choice. They’re both excellent in their individual contexts. With shout-outs to JRR for being a pioneer.
But the value of mystery and wonder and literary joys shared with your children is unparalleled.
So, for me, World Of Time wins this one 😀
That's why you should have started with The Hobbit, it's better for bedtime story hehe :). Jokes aside it all depends on individual, for me the language in Lotr was never a problem. When it comes to 're-readability' factor I find Lotr more rewarding since you discover new things as you read again, things you may have previously missed, besides Lotr is from the start more 'mature' story than Hobbit and so more difficult, as Tolkien said, the tale grew in the telling, to think it started as another light hearted adventure a sequel to Hobbit, with first intentions of it being another treasure hunt for Bilbo :).
This is the best comment!
Ok boomer
I don't really know how to react to that.
I had The Lord of the Rings (without The Hobbit) read to me when I was seven years old.
It was one of the highlights of my childhood.
Your point is indeed very subjective. I'm not a father, but i am an uncle. And tbh, as long as it makes him happy and brings him joy, it hands down win over something i might like better but he does not :) Ofc, i still like WoT better. But mainly because it brings me more joy because it is more.
Daniel, I am a solid Lotr fan. I did purchase eye of the world recently and plan to read it soon, willing to read it with an open mind since I've been a Tolkien fan for half of my life... Here's a question for you; Where do you feel GOT stands amidst these two other worlds (Middle earth/Wheel of time)?
Kyle
Im 17 and straight up, that readability point makes no sense to me.
I started Lotr twice before I got myself to finish it because it was so hard to read...
Andrew Sawyer same. Lotr is pretty easy to read.
Read LOTR when I was 13/14 and absolutely loved it.
Readability is certainly a factor but I would argue that the linguistic experience one gains from reading TLOTR is of some value to readers. I loved WOT but I feel it has rather gaping flaws in many respects (that will hopefully be tightened up with the TV adaptation). But Tolkein's work is a pure and damn near perfect masterpiece.
The fact that Tolkein actually FINISHED his work puts LOTR on another scale but there is also something to be said about brevity and doing more with less. With 4 books (Tolkein would say 2) Tolkein accomplished far more than modern writers do with 7 (Martin), 10 (Sanderson) or 15 (Jordan) books. This is a lesson that I think fantasy authors today are in desperate need of. Get to the freakin point and do it with style!
Hear, hear!
@AeonReign A lot of FILLER. Most of what happened towards the end of WoT was barely worth mentioning to characters we didn't care about. If I ever re-read WoT, I'll probably skip 5 of the books...
Yeh, better appendices
I felt you agonized over the magic system decision too much. The Wheel of Time magic system is one of the most amazing, deep, and just awesome magic systems out there. No disrespect to LOTR, but for me this one is not even close.
Agreed. Tolkien very much deliberately uses magic sparingly in LotR, so that it doesn't become the focus of narration.
Agreed 100%. I'm always confused about mentions of the magic system in LOTR, because, honestly, there isn't one. There are the palantir, the impacts of the rings on wearers, the mirror of galadriel, Gandalf vs. the balrog, the healing power of the king...but he picked and chose magic elements at random, to advance the story, with no framework supporting any of it.
I love both, but the prose of Tolkien is eons ahead of Jordan.
But Wheel of Time will never get referenced in a Led Zeppelin song, which is definitely a point in LotR's favor.
Don't forget Blind Guardian
For me, LoTR wins it. But then again, I was literally named after it, so I might be biased lol.
I'm a bit late to the party, but I feel like I have to add my voice here. So, in general, I'm surprised how much I agree with you. I am a huge Tolkien fan and in my opinion, the Lord of The Rings is the single best piece of literature ever composed, while the Legendarium as a whole is the most amazing collection of lore and stories I have ever had the joy of exploring. For that reason, I would have given the world point to LoTR without hesitation. For readability, while I agree with you in general, for me, Tolkien's prose is precisely why I love reading LoTR. I am convinced that there will never be a scene so epic as the fight between Gandalf and the Black Captain of the Nazgûl at the Gate of Gondor. "Rohan had come at last". No other sentence will ever shake me that much. I understand that people have difficulties with it, but I would love to read a lot more authors that employ this style.
Oh and I should add that I am 19 years old now. You are a bit too generalising here. Although I do love Kant, Kleist, and Shakespeare, too (the former two are German) for their style, so I guess I am a bit of an exception in that regard.
However, I am just finishing A Memory of Light and have definitely enjoyed WoT. Many points you brought up I completely agree with.
Never struggled with LOTR but I did struggle with a few of the middle books in WOT
To be fair; three books versus 14/15…..Jordan maybe deserves a bit of grace there, given how much bigger of a task he took on. Even with Sanderson writing three of them.
You’re gonna hit parts you don’t like in a story that big. It’s just gonna happen. Meanwhile, a trilogy is quite a bit more manageable.
To Tolkien’s credit there tho, most people can’t make a trilogy without at least one of the books being mediocre at best….
@@odile8701 I totally agree and the WOT series is really worth the effort of pushing through books 8 - 10. My husband just gave up halfway through book 8 says it’s too complicated with too many characters for him to keep track of in his head which is where a lot of people struggle. For me it was how long the Faile being captured storyline dragged that started to feel like a drag.
What’s the name of the song at the end?
And I love and respect WoT. But I think you can tell by my profile picture where I stand. :)
Been wondering that myself for the last few videos! Finally found it - "On My Way" by Gio Gio :)
Mitch A ah yes a man of culture :]
The debates of who is better when it’s the original creator of something vs the new version for modern audiences is always interesting. Is one better because it made the other possible or is the other better because it had the ability to see what didn’t work about the old version and fix it. I don’t think a consensus can be reached because WOT would not exists without LOTR but WOT continues its legacy to new readers continuing the fantasy genre.
As much as I'm a Lord of the Rings nerd, I definitely concede that Wheel of Time is better realized. However, I prefer Lord of the Rings, but I've never read wheel of time. This video has been the final Straw, I'm gonna pick it up I think, probably first on Audible to hear how it sounds on my ears. I'll get through it regardleds cuz it's importany
2:20
bold of you to assume the human race will not eradicate itself long before the sun explodes
Yes. This. I've read LotR once a year since age 10 (i'm 35). It was hands-down my favorite series ever written. But when I was pregnant and on bed rest in 08, a friend gave me EotW. It broke my heart that LotR was no longer my favorite, but I still find myself reading all of WoT repeatedly. I'm on re-read 8 overall, Currently I'm on my second time through the audiobooks. It's easier to read, more colorfully imagined, and easier to follow. LotR is like the first 10 Final Fantasy games: amazing, culturally relevant, forever impactful, and linear. WoT is like every FF since: non-linear but infinitely more complete as a world, as a story, as characters, as non-main storylines. LotR follows the main protagonists beautifully. WoT follows hundreds of storylines that criss cross, go separate ways, and somehow weave back in together at the end of it all. LotR will always be my second favorite. But WoT will probably never be toppled.
The Wheel of Time will start selling way more books when the series comes on Amazon.
So will lotr when it’s amazon series comes out
@@kenobi5230 i feel like most people already own Lord of the Rings because of the massively popular movie series. People will buy it, for sure, but, assuming WoT does well on TV, more people will buy it as a result of the show.
Steven Cundy yes you are probably right. I guess I should’ve said the other books in the legendarium. I believe it will spark a greater interest in the silmarillion, unfinished tales etc.. I believe WoT will really grow too and I can’t wait!
@@stevencundy4501 to be fair though there is a whole generation now that wasn't raised on the movies. Return of the king was in 2003, Granted the hobbit is closer but it's still been years. I love both series anyways though. I hope they both do great and sell tons more and bring a younger generation that really doesn't read a lot to books.
Same thing happened with a song of ice and fire, the books were actually fairly obscure before the series came out.
Largely agree with the points being made here, although I would argue that the "Setting" point isn't as close as you make it here. The Lord of the Rings IS setting---the plot, themes, characters, communities and lore all grow out of the setting like a garden grown from the best soil. It's all woven together so tightly, each thread is dependant on another in a way that makes it impossible to remove or adjust any one piece. To me, this is the most impressive aspect of LOTR, the fact that everything comes together in a way that feels so inherent and inevitable... nothing feels out of place. Not that I don't think Wheel of Time is amazing, I just feel that this point was a bit understated in the video. The shape and structure of Middle-earth is so unified that to this day (for me) it feels impossible that it's an invention of the human mind. Thanks for the great video Daniel!
Sales might be interesting to look at, but really don't say anything about their quality.
Maybe the amount of authors that have been inspired by the novel(s) would be a better measurement of their impact.
Voxdalian but you can’t really measure that at all
I can push through the LotR more easily than I can books 7-11 of WoT. I had to resort to chapter summaries thanks to the white tower and menagerie bogging down the plot progression. Once i got to book 12 after chapter summaries I flew through it again.
I really don't get how the lord of the rings is hard to read "old English"
I read the series in fourth grade.
Luther Floyd haha yeah I found LOTR more readable in grade 4 than I do wheel of time at age 29. I’m in the thick of the slog now so that might be skewing my opinion 😝I like both though.
@@frmaha Me, too! I am reading WOT now at 27, and I found LOTR much easier than this when I was in grade 6. WOT is one of the most boring series I've ever read.
Yeah, pretty sure I read it when I was eleven or twelve. My mum said she couldn't read it because it was 'too much for kids' - it's way more light and campy than the movies.
It’s not old English jhkgjkfkgfjkfkftjfk Although Tolkien does take heavy influence in his conlangs, the books itself are just Modern English
Yeah, I first read LOTR in the 7th grade and how little to no problem with it.
This was a lot fairer than I expected. As an anthropology major reading Wheel of Time is amazing with the culture and people acting like people. But Lord of the Rings is so full and so realized as well that we know everything about previous ages. As much as I love WOT I think LOTR would win the setting.
lucasstone24 Anthropology for the win.
@@BooksRebound I have not had started reading Malazan yet but I really want to. Especially since I'm going for an archeology career myself
I think wheel of time should probably lose out on a point or two because of the frustrating romance plots and love triangles.
I started TWOT after watching all your videos about it. I finised the 4th book (Shadow Rising) yesterday but my adventure in this series stops here. I really like the four books I've read and the characters were amazing. But I don't feel like reading the rest of the series. The books are too long and most of the time for nothing. I feel like sometimes he just wrote to fullfill pages and pages because there are some chapters he could have deleted. I really pushed myself to finish the 4th book and I can't do it anymore.
But I can't wait for the TV show 😍
Should of kept pushing through, so worth it.
In general I agree with most of your points. I am also amazed that I am on read thru seven. I find something new every time, Sanderson described the difference between the magic system. LOTR magic is not really defined, it just is. Gandy is not much short of a deity figure. Magic in WoT is a scientific system with rules, boundaries, controls, etc. WoT is my absolutely favorite. I used to just read science fiction but WoT made me a convert. Thank you RJ.
Broooo the ending music on Daniel’s videos is such strait 🔥🔥🔥
I think both worlds are equally good in their different ways. Lord of the Rings is written in an some what awkward to read intellectual English, whereas Wheel of Time is modern American English. Wheel of times biggest flaw is it’s over descriptiveness, it’s endless recaps and reminders and repetitive phrases with very few pages dedicated to plot movement and character building.
9:20 I think Brandon Sanderson is on a similar level to both of them, and I think that by the time he finishes the Stormlight Archive it will be on the same level as LOTR and WoT.
I can't speak to WoT because I have not yet read it. You've convinced me to at least give it a try. The sheer length of this series has always intimidated me!
But just as a general comment, it doesn't have to be a competition. Series can have different qualities, strengths & differences, and work out even.
Surprisingly I agree with you 100%
Also of important note: The Wheel Of Time' series was the second highest selling fantasy series about 16 months ago until 'aSoIaF' took it's place.
I myself am a many decades long Tolkien fan. However, since reading Jordan's 14 book mega series I just CANNOT stop doing re-reads of it. It is THAT great! It has taken over my number#1 spot of fantasy from Tolkien which is something that I would never have thought would happen!
Cha-Faile!
I disagree, but I think that's probably an aesthetic choice more than anything. As far as I'm concerned, LOTR and WoT is basically a 1A vs 1B question, they're that close. To quote WoT "A mouse could starve to death on the difference."
I agree - maybe I just reread LOTR too much, but I have had no temptation to reread it since I started wot in the mid-90s, not even when the LOTR movies came out. I have gone through the full wot at least 5 times, and I will probably do it again a couple more times this year (tts of the epub makes it more feasible).
How do you compare two sunrises?
See each one repeatedly until one stops surprising you and the other continues to offer new joys.
I honestly think they are pretty damn even. I would say one thing that breaks the tie is the classic excuse for Tolkien, that without Tolkien there is no wheel of time, no authors like Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson, George RR Martin, Jk Rowling, Steven King, etc and those are just the easy to list money makers.
On the other hand, I love the Silmarillion but it is incomplete and has flaws admitted both by Tolkien and his son. Many times Christopher found this or that pieced/fragmented note left behind only to find another contradicting or re-written idea (neither actualized in many cases sometimes both oddly).
While wheel of time had a gap of three books that could have been combined into one book, I think the wheel of time through its series as a whole has an immensely clean and rather complete world history while also including some Tolkien-ess mythos beyond dated years and within several ages. Tolkien has a lot of norse ideologies and christian obviously but so does RJ plus many other types of culture with their own individual ideologies (like the Aiel and pretty much every country)
And while he is judged for his own version of male and female roles (which I don't mind and think people take too serious sometimes because Women are the powerful ones throughout) I truly believe he doesn't get enough credit for having and "weaving" seamlessly a dozen peoples/races/cultures/ethnicities (how ever you want to name it) in a way that lets the reader know we are talking about people with different regional features, skin tones, blood lines, cultures etc and yet it doesn't matter in the best way. That's why as all these tv series castings come out people cant really complain because they all work and they could even be different and still work.
There's always a few dumbasses who comment "Oh Perran and Nyeneve are casted with black actors? What?" And to real wheel of time fans most of us are like yeah ok it actually can make sense without a leap in forcing it. For one easy example "The breaking of the world" would strand mix every race and culture in not only a location sense but also a racial sense. Two there is this guy Artur Hawkwing Paendrag i.e. the Forefather of the Seanchan (A darker skinned people based on Tuon's description) who dominated half the world. Conquerors end up adding other peoples to their own culture like Alexander the great introducing greek ways of life to peoples of India. Also Manetheren was a great kingdom, one surrounded by rivers and known to gain its wealth through military power and through gold and silver mining all these things would indicate that a whole melting pot of people would have lived in a place like this. (Kind of like our own world during the settlement of the American west, just about every nationality came to the west even though all but the whites were abused.)
My point in short is that RJ doesn't get enough credit for many ideas Tolkien didn't even dive into and that it shouldn't be overlooked especially for the shift of whats happening currently in our own world and America's problem with racism (especially considering we are the worlds melting pot). Tolkien's character are rich in culture but lacking in race and don't tell me the men elves and dwarves symbolize real world race because if you do youll only dig your own grave. (And here come all the questionable racist replies...)
I love both these are just some opinions, don't go crazy and crucify me internet commenters. (I know I know Long post, sorry. It's been a while Daniel)
A huge issue with LOTR that few people verbalize is that Tolkien was interested in the history of the world largely in how it impacted language, and it can be seen in the appendices
The Silmarillion is more of the same - it is a history text book far more than a story, and I think that JRR was right not to publish. I wish the the estate would have put it in limited academic sales, because The Silmarillion does a disservice to the overall LOTR enjoyment (I couldn't stay awake).
Yup, I've also put down The Fellowship of the Ring twice. I think it gets even harder to read for someone like me who is, not only not familiar with the old English, but isn't a native English speaker either, but still wants to read it in its original language. I don't remember having that problem while reading The Eye of the World(even thought, at the time I have read it, I didn't find it interesting enough to continue on with the Wheel of Time series). All that being said, "What about second breakfast?" 😁
I think the LOTR has alot of themes on hope too and despair.
I will admit that I am a literature snob. I have a dual doctorate in Comparative Literature and Modern Languages. I love The Wheel of Time. I am thirty-nine years old, and I picked up The Eye of the World when it was published. I lived with the story for decades. The series has many wonderful themes, is very character driven, and the plot is sinfully immersive. Yet for readability, in the end it is a work read for story not language. I first read The Hobbit when I was six years old. The language is beautiful, sophisticated, and poetic. I can pick the books up just to have the prose inundate my mind. The language does not shut me out; it pulls me along. This will sound harsh and judgmental, but I consider it a criticism upon the younger generation that they find Tolkien difficult to read.
The younger generation is trained on YA books, like Harry Potter, or Percy Jackson. Older fantasy will seem a bit harder. That's like a teen going into a new hope and saying the special effects are bad.
I agree about the poetry of the LOTR; it's also in the Silmarilion. There is an elegance and poignancy to the works. WoT is a great series of fully realized story, character, and world building, but nowhere near as beautifully written IMHO. (Plus, I could make a drinking game out of SO MANY phrases in WoT. It drove me a little nuts)
I've read a good amount of
fantasy, but LoTR will always be my number 1, I think, for the beauty of the writing.
I see the The Wheel Of Time , I pause whatever I'm doing!
Lotr is better, go read that
CreepyCreep 333 not in my opinion
A video where you go deeper into the themeing of LotR would be very much appreciated I can Imagine.
I agree with most of your points (even though my personal preference is for LOTRs magic system, but I agree that it's personal preference!) But I gotta give world building to LOTR! They have the lore you mentioned, but Tolkien also explored the culture of the different peoples in his book. For example the differences between men from Rohan and Gondor, or even different cities within Gondor! Anywho, even though I loved WoT, take this with a grain of salt from someone who may be a bit biased, as I definitely do have an LOTR tattoo...
I heartily disagree on readability, WoT is a true slog to get through in the middle where the only difficult bit about LotR is getting the ball rolling, it is far more difficult to keep going when you get your reading motivation sapped after having already gone through several books than a mere slow start.
I read LotR in the early 80s. WoT is more readable. I don't know how that can be debated. I mean, in a real sense, Twilight is more readable than Hamlet. I don't think that says anything about the quality of one vs the other.
Yes, this point of reability doesn't make sense to me. And if i think for example that Lotr has a better writing i can argue that is more readable
@@gut.6925 When I think of readability, I think of how understandable the book is to the reader. That depends a lot on the reader's vocabulary, and the time period the book was written in. Of course, that can be a very subjective point. Some people love to read books written in Older English or 50s English if you want to call it that. Others prefer modern verse and prose, like what WOT has on offer. It's a matter of subjective taste.
@@Sherlock910 Yes, i understand that is how fast you read, not necessarily the quality of the prose
"Readability" is a pretty nebulous term. Like, sure, WoT has a more modern writing style and is probably "easier" to read on a page by page basis. However, I feel pacing also plays a role in how "readable" a series is. While LotR may be a bit drier in it prose, its also a well paced story that keeps the plot moving and always has something interesting happening. Whereas WoT made me want to drop the series entirely on multiple occasions because Jordan's writing meandered to a frankly absurd degree. Really, what would you rather read, an intesting book with dry prose, or a book where literally nothing happens (I'm looking at you Crossroads of Twilight).
I give the readability point to Tolkien myself. His every word is chosen with care and precision. It is not that he wrote in an older form of English, but that the writing style for the modern reader stops at the sixth grade. Tolkien actually makes interesting use of his language as did Shakespear, Dickens, Poe, Lovecraft, and other writers prior to the 1970s. Very few authors actually have their own voices anymore, and are nearly interchangeable. This is true even of Christopher Tolkien who adapted some of the great stories of the Silmarillion to novelization. Give me prose where every word is carefully weighed and considered to any of the newspeak that streams from a modern author's pen like an overfilled sewer.
This is not saying that all authors are so vilely inept. Certainly Jordan was not, and the same is true of Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Cherryh, or Martin. But most of the modern authors combine bland plots with boring prose and are hailed as paragons of penmanship. The great George Orwell would be appalled.
Lastly, I love the good old KJV Bible, but I will for fun read the original text of the Tyndale, Coverdale, Wycliffe, Bishop's, and Great Bibles.
I have never heard of wheel of time until I’ve ran into your channel and heard your ploys of its greatness.. I’m going to def start the series!!
Just finished The Hobbit and lotr for the first time. I’ll check back with you after I’ve read the first book 📖
14:33 anyone notice Dan's very cool peace at the end :)
The only thing that would falter the readability for wheel of Time is the fact that Robert Jordan is very descriptive and has lots of details. Which I love.
What and Tolkien isn't??
I wouldn't call what Jordan writes, especially early on, "modern language." He's definitely trying to emulate an older, more descriptive style without the lyricism that such a style requires. I have to do a lot of speed reading to get through his stuff.
Well i have only read about 10 pages of WoT but i just wanted to mention two things regarding readability for LotR: The first one is that it depends on if you are reading in the original English or a translation. When i read mine, it was a more recent translation which took away some of the difficulty. The other point in readability is more prominent in Silmarilion, and it is related to names. I have my copy for well over 20 years and i have never passed the first few pages because of how similar the names are and the confusion it causes.
I think you would have interesting things to add to a discussion on the Lord of the Rings.
Personally, some of the things that I like the most about the Lord of the Rings are things that I have never heard any youtuber mention. Or anyone for that matter. I think LOTR is something that everybody likes and they kinda forget why they like it. Its got a beautiful core, with all kinds of great doodads added onto it. And people usually spend all of their time thinking about the doodads. The language system, the maps, the lore, the linguistics. Naturally I would have misidentified these things as the core as well, if their hadn't been SOOOO many off-brand Tolkein copycats who hang all the same ornaments on a dead Christmas tree. Tolkein had a beautiful heart
I'm slowly reading wheel of time now. The only reason why I haven't devoted more time to it is because there are an endless amount of books that I want to read
You should do a Sword of Truth vs. Wheel of Time on April 1st and act like it's a really tough decision every time.
Jordan is a great storyteller but Tolkien is a literary genius. He can say in one paragraph what takes Martin or Jordan an entire book to say.
The thing that is putting me off reading the wheel of time isnt its length, but its length coupled with the fact that it apparently has a "boring" middle. People seem to say it comes in three parts: The 1st part is good, the 2nd is middling and not a lot happens and then the end is spectacular. I dont think i could sit through 4-5 books of middling quality for a good ending. But i bought the 1st book today and put it on my TBR.
Both are perhaps a bit too descriptive, it is why I would recommend someone new to fantasy a mist borne or storm light archive book instead. Even Rift War Cycle purely based on the effortless read and storytelling style of yarns.
If I had to pick lord of the rings and Tolkien would win this match up, but that is personal preference. Likeability of characters is why, because you even kinda root for the flawed characters. Whilst in the WoT from what I have read/listened to so far, you kind despise the evil or flawed characters. Just my two cents. Let the triggered/conflicted war begin.
Saw the title and thought *So, it begins*
Sidenote: LOTR is not hard to read, christ people, I get that it's a pretty old series in the fantasy genre but it's not like your reading Shakespeare. However to get used to Tolkien's writing style, I suggest you read his series in the proper order. Reading the Hobbit will prepare you for the LOTR.
Readability I'd give to LOTR. LOTR was a slog the first time... right up until the Council of Elrond halfway through, and then I couldn't put it down and plowed through the other books AND even ended up reading the Silmarillion after a little break! To this day the only thing I still can't stand is Tom Bombadil, and I'm so glad the films left him out, haha.
Wheel of Time had the other problem. It started out solid, I breezed through book 2 which I just couldn't put down, and then the pacing of the plot started to slow down with book 3 and then I got to book 6... a slog nearly as long as all three LOTR books combined, that followed characters I didn't care for (I was so sick of the Forsaken plotting) and hardly moved any substantial plot forward. I got halfway through book 7 and nothing felt any better and then I just... stopped reading.
I've always intended to go back to Wheel of Time, especially once the series finally concluded (when I quit, book 9 or 10 was the most recently released), but haven't yet, and I am concerned I'll hit that same roadblock I did with the "middle books" prior.
Awesome video, I would love Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn vs The Powdermage trilogy. Both are great and so different
Agree on the magic system. Tolkien really only uses magic when it's absolutely necessary and it's unclear what the rules are besides plot advancement.
I feel like the Silmarillion gives more of the mythos that give more context and thus a lot more meaning to the characters of the Lord of the Rings. Thus the character point I would give to LotR. As for readability I'd definitely got LofR, personally it's not hard to read and I've never heard anyone say that, but I have personally felt and been told by many others that the WoT is too big a task often taking people over a year to read. But that's just me.
I don’t agree about the character point. The Silmarillion expands the world and history (and it does so beautifully, might I add), but it does very little for character. I would argue that Unfinished Tales did that more then the Silmarillion (there’s an entire part dedicated to Galadriel and Celeborn, which explores there history and development to who they are in Lord of the Rong. Meanwhile the Wheel of Time fleshes our it’s characters to an insane degree, to where you could write essays on them. I would say that most characters in The Lord of The Rings are actually more shallow. Don’t get me wrong, there is some depth to them, but most of them are just likeable heroes. The deepest character is Frodo, but even his depth can’t compare to the characters in the Wheel of Tome, who make more mistakes, are more relatable (to me at least) and are explored at a deeper level in every way.
I would like to add that I don’t look down upon the characters of the Lord of The Rings. Tolkien did a phenomenal job establishing his characters, and I think they deserve a hefty amount of praise.
@@lordofdarkness4204 I think you miss understand what I wrote. I said it gave more mythos and more context to actions and thus meaning to the characters.
Not that it actually talked much about the characters in the LotR.
And I disagree whole heartedly about the characters being shallow.
The main characters of the books were the 4 hobbits. Which is often forgotten. They are anything but shallow. The others are support characters and like most books are not nearly as well fleshed out as the main cast.
The 'glares malazan' flash was amusing, yet i'd love to see you expand upon that.
Thanks for the video! Will you put the score in the top left moving forward? It's difficult to see while subtitles are enabled.
Oh boy, this is going to be a good one
It was obvious who's going to win. I completely disagree with the last point. LoTR was not as discriptive and the pacing was amazing unlike WoT. What more can I expect from a WoT lover😒
The readablity point is a really interesting one. I have read and throughly enjoyed the LoTR trilogy for the first time this year, once i was able to get into the right mind set i found it was more engaging and more emersive! (Which i crave in a book) My Bloke has been trying to get me to read WoT for years now, but i am put off by the size of the series! And yet he struggles to read the LoTR? It really is subjective :)
(I often watch your WOT video's to encourge me to start the series......but its just so damn intimidating)
It's as though you read my mind. 14 books is intimidating because it is a considerable investment, I've side stepped the WoT for years because of this alone.
But I will read it one day. I have to.
I'm just curious. Does anyone else know the name of the outro beat/song that is used at the end of Daniel videos and also where I can find it????? Please help ASAP!!!!
This is a very well put together video and I have to appreciate just how objective it was (not that there weren't subjective elements). I know the people wanted these two titans to battle it out, but it's so hard to compare a 14+1 book world that almost exclusively takes place over the course of a short period of time but contains thousands of pages to fill in the history vs. a 3+7 book (depending on whether you include things like The Silmarillion, Children of Hurin, Book of Lost Tales, The Hobbit etc.) story that spans a history from the creation of the world through thousands of years. Obviously LotR is only 3 books and stands on its own just fine, but if you are truly comparing the depth of the story, world, etc., and you take into account everything that has been established in the lore, it's totally different. I'm a die-hard LotR fan and it wins my vote vs. WoT, but they're both exceptional and I think both shine in different ways, as you pointed out so well.
For me, as a young reader at the time Tolkien made a life changing impact. I love his writing and world building - so deep and rich. I came across WOT many years later. It stands on its own merits. I enjoyed it quite a bit - despite the slower middle books - and I thought Brandon Sanderson did a masterful job of finishing the books.
Don’t have an issue with most of this, except...
To me LOtR is the clear winner when it comes to lore/world building. RJ only invented fragments of the Old Tongue, but Quenya, Sindarin, Westron, Khuzdul... I mean, it helps that JRRT was a linguistics professsor, but the history and depth of Middle Earth vastly outclass Randland, in my humble opinion.
Second, while I would definitely give “readability” to TWoT (I only recently made it through the Silmarillion as an adult on my 4th or 5th try), I think that, to be fair, you should have mentioned that:
1) Eye of the World starts out quite a bit more “high fantasy” than the rest of the series, as RJ was still figuring out character voices and personalities.
2) A fair number of readers feel like RJ lost his way a bit in the later books (10-11 especially), and some readers get very tired of the way he describes female behaviors, e.g. sniffing and braid pulling.
3) When Brandon took over after RJ’s death for books 12-14, some fans (I’m one) appreciated Brandon’s more kinetic style of writing, while others (and I agree here too) think he struggled a bit with maintaining character personalities/voices, especially Mat’s.
I think it's hilarious that no one sees Jordan's connection to BDSM in his worldbuilding lol
@@palarious I do. It's pretty unsettling.
I disagree on the world building. Tolkien focused primarily on the elves and numenoreans, and their links to the gods and angels (cbf to look up the right words), and the associated languages. Very little about day to day life, nothing about hobbits, little about men other than from numenor, scanty on dwarves, a gloss over everything that didn't impact the languages of the elves.
To begin with I'd like to say that your channel is amazing. I've watched you for a while now and I am so excited to see your growth. I will continue to follow your work and can't wait to see what you do next. Also on a side now you should consider doing a video with helo future me. You both has some great ideas on classic fantasy, and A dialog between you 2 would make my day
Glad I found your channel, Daniel. Keep up the good work
Whilst I agree that the lot of the books in WOT are more readable, I would argue that when you get to books 8 9 and 10 you stumble big time and I personally found I didn’t want to continue (I did btw but they did ruin the story for me in a massive way). I would say after you get the flow of LoR they are better reads. Personal opinion 😊
Also dragonlance vs. Forgotten Realms
An excellent video! I can't get past the amazing fact that Tolkien created a language for his story. Now I need to read Wheel of Time.
Thanks to you Daniel I’m starting the the Wheel of Time soon (for Christmas). Wish me luck.
Have you ever read any of Micheal Moorcocks Eternal Champion Books, Elric of Melebone, Hawkmoon,, Count Brass., etc...?
Elric is an absolute classic of the genre, and another ‘oroginal’ Like LOTR which has influenced modern fantasy authors. It was certainly the first to have a true antihero as the protagonist.
Actually, the more I think on it, the last book of the Elric saga ‘Stornbringer’ has a real feel which is similar to the feeling of the end of the WoT series. I wonder if Jordan was influenced by it?
TheDabus1 the antihero path is the thing I live most about that those stories.
Does WoT have flaws...sure. Does LotR have flaws...absolutely. Are both completely awesome? Hell yeah!
I wonder if these sales figures are for brand new copies or include second hand? (which im almost positive is impossible to calculate). But if you add in second hand buying of lotr, I think you could easily double that sales number. havent read wheel of time or really even heard of it before so I wont comment on it yet, but interesting conversation and definitely has me looking forward to reading it as my next big book series!
Just out of interest (apologies if already asked) but are the sales for the entire series or for individual books from the series?
Daniel: "I just don't want to alinate a bunch of people who haven't read the Wheel of Time."
Me: have read WoT but not LoTR
Hur är det möjligt
@@turtleanton6539 Bra fråga
@@turtleanton6539 Försökte läsa ringens brödraskap några gånger, men den var bara för seg. Jag har senare förstått att det blir bättre i de senare böckerna, men just nu har jag annat att läsa.
@@simonholmqvist8017 läst WoT 5 gånger men LotR har jag bara lyckats ta mig igenom en gång och efter det var jag helt slut 😂
Great video. The readability factor troubles me; as I fear that an appreciation for the English language, as well as other tongues, is a fundamental part of Fantasy. Modernization is fine, to some extent...though language, for me, should fit the emulated societies, time periods and cultures. A Nordic culture should speak as such. A reverential order, a priory...any well understood trope, unless the Worldbuilding of the story focuses on the subversion of a trope as part of the narrative hook.
A fictional culture should reflect the tone and tense of the source culture. JMO
Can we get a Top 10 books of all time (any genre) from you? I would love this video or any highlighting more books from other genres. It would be great to see where some of these fantasy books rank for you across all genres.
The big advantage of wheel of time is it has 14 books. More books means more lore and everything just more.