I love how he mentioned that he often wondered what man would emerge had he been tested. And then you see him frail and dying yet forcing himself to march into the throne room and ascend the stairs. And you realize this was anything but a weak man
He is weak, but at the same time, he is the strongest WHEN he is at his weakest. The damage has been done, the family enmity has gone beyond Alicent-Rhaenyra, and has bled into the future generations who he spent no time with, the hate between the blacks and greens is not going anywhere, he didn't do anything to repair the damage when it was NEEDED, but that moment was definitely his strongest as he defends the honor of his daughter, but at the same time, it is sad too, because we know it is nothing more than just a drowning man's attempt to grab at a straw when he knows it's not gonna save him. He's wondering what would have happened if he was truly tested, without even realizing that through the growing hate between his family, he WAS being tested and was ignorant to it, proving that he failed the test, and the Targaryen dynasty as his long term actions (or lack therof) lead to the dying of the dragons.
@@MrBazBake That's ignoring the fact that he's the king who came after Jaehaerys I. Viserys I was largely untested because the realm was largely stable because of the hard work of his grandfather. That's like when idiots laud Trump for improving the economy, when the changes were first set in motion during Obama's time in office. Viserys rid on the coattails of his grandfather Jaehaerys. You'd have a different opinion if he was not Paddy Considine in the show and if show Viserys was characterized instead as a lazy drunkard as in the book. The character and his motivations may be different, but he is still worthless as a king
That last throne room scene was too little too late. He could have quashed every opposition and naysayer from the moment he named Rhaenyra heir all the way to his death but he didn't. No heads rolled until Vaemond when plenty of treason have been suggested over decades. This guy is a weak king and a people pleaser. Being useful for a single time at his deathbed doesn't change the fact that 90% of his life is him being fking useless as a king and father.
His biggest mistake was not making Rhaenyra hand of the king after dismissing Otto Hightower, or at least making her Master of Coin. Keeping her in a position of power at court was super important, and he failed to do so when it was within his power
But then he'd actually have to deal with the fact that his sons and wife hate his daughter and why do that when you can just pretend there's no problem until you die and it inevitably leads to a civil war lul.
in my opinion Viserys was a horrible father overall....he might have loved Rhaenyra but betrayed her with marrying her best friend and then killing also her mother and so on...he also had trouble with connecting with her...they hardly had any relationship , so now we have Aegon who is psychopath cause he felt unloved and uncared for and on the other hand we have Rhaenyra who just doesnt know how to rule cause she was never taught how to do that , Viserys should have kept Daemon and Rhaenyra as close as possible while also loving his other children...Aegon and Aemond clearly feel betrayed by him and thats why they turned out to be monsters
My heart broke for him when, as a dying old man at his last family dinner, he begs them for his sake to put their quarrels aside. He was a broken, lonely man that just wanted to love his family and live a peaceful life. The iron throne took everything from him.
Yet, Rhaenyra's sons agitated Aemond (Twice) with a pig after Viserys left, knowing they've blinded him for life; leaving such a scar to be shown to all. Daemon molesting Rhaenyra and taking her chasity because of his anger towards his brother is something else. Yet, I know it's based on fiction, that's based on real events within royal families from the past. It's still sickening.
People who say “why didn’t he stop having kids, since he had a child already?” Are thinking too much in modern and normal standards. We very clearly see in the show and in history that strength in numbers is important, since one successor could just as well die or get killed, and then what? Hell, it wasn’t even a certainty that your child would live to see 5 back then.
Imagine if Rhaenyra had died before Viserys and now it was Daemon as presumed heir - random distant Targaryen cousins would have been coming out of the woodwork to try their luck at the throne, descendants of ruling houses from before the conquest, a free for all! That would likely have been just as bad.
Notably Viserys *himself* became king because of this exact issue. His grandparents King Jaehaerys I. and Queen Alysanne had thirteen children, and yet he had to call a council to decide on an heir because all his sons predeceased him. Visery's first wife Aemma also went through multiple pregnancies, and all children except Rhaenyra either were stillborn or died shortly after their birth. Rhaenyra being a woman makes this even riskier, because as heir to the throne she is required to have children, and childbirth was notoriously dangerous. There was a good chance that she could die young due to pregnancy complications, and that the child produced may not live either. There is a real life precedent on why relying on a single female heir can backfire: Princess Charlotte of Wales, only child of King George IV of England and heir presumptive to the English crown after him, died after giving birth to a stillborn son at only 21 years of age, leaving her unmarried uncles to scramble to produce a new heir - thats how the English got Queen Victoria!
Having TOO many successors results in a succession war, having not enough successors means your dynasty might not live to see the next generation. It’s a hard line to walk.
I think the main reason no Targaryen kings after Maegor took more than one wife is because it was a compromise struck between the crown and the faith in Jaeherys time. Kind of like "You can marry siblings but you can only have one spouse". Pretty sure if he did take a second wife there would have been a possible second uprising of the faith and pious houses. I mean if you look at Maegor's time a faith militant uprising has the potential to beggar the realm and plunge it into years of civil war.
Yeah this and also him saying Viserys should marry his daughter, two giant no-no's with the faith. The show doesn't begin to demonstrate the tension between the starry sept and the iron throne. Viserys was only lifetime removed from a civil war with the poor fellows and warriors sons
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Also even for the Dragonlords, a parent-child relationship is never mentioned as a viable option, only sibling-sibling or avuncular (child to the sibling of a parent, Daenerys with Jon, Rhaenerya with Daemon, et cetra). The only Targaryen known to have *potentially* slept with a child is Aegon IV, and he was considered just a flat out monstrous degenerate.
And honestly, it's easy to pick apart what he did now as observers, but that job he had was insane... All while battling a painful crippling disease, a headstrong AF brother, and a headstrong AF daughter.
no he didn't, that's literally why the Dance of Dragons happens, because he is a bad king that didn't deal with the issue of succession before his death, his inaction lead to the near complete destruction of his family and the fall of their rule
@@Dell-ol6hbwhat inaction? You can disagree with his choices but what inaction. To me the proper feud between rhaenyra and alicent did not really boil until sometime during the 10 time skip where viserys is deteriorating significantly.
Princess Rhaenyra repeatedly crossed that line between precocious and spoiled. One solution that could have averted much strife would have been to place Rhaenyra as a ward with another house. What lordly house could discipline a princess when she would outrank any Lord or Lady as a princess? Perhaps a house with a princess already married into it as the wife of its lord, such as House Velaryon's Princess Rhaenys. It would have also bound House Velaryon to King Viserys by showing the trust he has in letting them raise his daughter and presumed heir.
Think the issue is that Otto would of done his damn best to whisper into viserys ears about how thats a bad idea and how Rhaenyra will have an accident while there.
Or perhaps, Viserys could've listened to the one advisor who wasn't being a sycophant or power hungry, Lionel Strong, and swallow his pride to marry Laena Velaryon. Sure, it would've been uncomfortable, but no one would've objected or protested outright. That way you don't marry your daughter's childhood friend, undermining all trust and confidence in both those relationships for years. That moment in episode 2, where he announced his marriage to Alicent, on top of not recognizing Rhaenyra's potential and initiative as a leader and problem solver when she recovered the egg from Daemon, sealed their fate as Rhaenyra would begin to act more on impulse and resentment as the years went on, squandering the budding potential she had when she was younger. Also, why would the Velaryons accept a wardship when they were denied a marriage in the beginning? Lord Corlys left with Daemon to the Stepstones in the first place, because turning down the marriage proposal with Laena was the last straw on top of Viserys not acting against the Triarchy.
@@nate742 YES! Lyonel was a truly loyal servant dedicated to serving the Iron Throne and protecting the realm. Lyonel won my girlfriend over with his impartial counsel and his son Harwin did so in just a few scenes (Harwin Smash and Harwin/Laenor working together to be good dads). When they left for Harrenhal, she was like, "Oh, Rhaenyra's gonna try and get to Harrenhal for her baby-daddy, right?" and I had to bite my tongue and not remind her his was a Game of Thrones prequel.
The best way to prevent this is the biggest sacrifice that anyone would think. Viserys had to abdicate the throne in favor of his daughter at the moment when his health began to fail. Stop being the King to dedicate all his time to what really moved him, being a good father. But on how to run the House of the Dragon, his main mistake in fact, is one that Ned Stark in the original saga did understand. "Cohesiveness" and objective. He has many children, but even so, he lacked goals or ideals for them, beyond being "sons of the dragon". As an example, Ned Stark always mentions how each of his children has a role in the family. Robb is the heir, Bran would be a steward with a Tower or stronghold in the North, Arya and Sansa would strengthen Robb's position and, even Jon, was saw as a future champion for his brother. Here Viserys let his sons have a lot of free time. Me being Viserys in his position. The moment Rhaenyra began to have heirs, I make her the king's hand (I would abdicate when she fell ill), and I would manage my children better. Since he was little, I would have pushed myself to make Aegon a warrior, a knight, perhaps send him to a loyal house as a ward so that he develops that devotion to honor (Stark or Arryn would have worked). Aemond as the second male, would have educated him, he is intelligent, somewhat proud, but a good education would have helped him maintain a good position on the council. But yes, I would have married them to medium or small houses. Celtigars, Umbers, Waynwood, it doesn't matter. A small house to reduce the temptation to rebellion. In this way, I would be alive for the first years of Rhaenyra's reign, I would see my children with a bright future and they would not be idle in the capital. I would even encourage Aegon, if he is born with ambition, to conquer Pentos or whatever xD
Viserys' biggest mistake was not keeping Rhaenyra close. He never prepped her for the throne at all. She was never given seat on the council and by extension never taught to rule the realm, was never taught to foster bonds with the lords who swore her fealty, never taught her how to improve her standing with the small folk, and never taught her how to act in a royal manner. Hill's Alive did an excellent video on Rhaenyra's shortcomings being at the forefront when she was looking for suitors. While overall, I agree with your argument that he wasn't the terrible king history knew him as, this fault makes him a bad king and father/man.
We do see the youngest generation of Targaryens receiving lessons on things from combat to politics. Children of a royal family were not just left to their own devices to stand around and look pretty. They are well educated, and prepared for their possible position, in case something happens. Rhaenyra had to have been educated like any royal family member would be when she was younger, even if she didn't have things like a council seat (it could have been in the period before the series, or in the many years between some episodes). The show more indicates that she was rebellious about her lessons, that she knew her duties and necessary sacrifices, but resented them. Despite being told repeatedly to make a good impression with the suitors, Rhaenyra makes the choice to not do so, and possibly sows more discourse as a result. A father can teach, but it is up to the children when/if the lesson takes root.
That's COMPLETELY WRONG entirely that any of that makes him a "bad king" at all from THAT single shortcoming at all as the video said and proves he was a GOOD king from not having any war and keeping Damond in check as a brother while fighting off a disease that was eating away at his body. Viserys WAS a good king despite all the things he had to deal with and Rhaenyra not acting in a "Royal manner" was ALL on HER for not doing so as she was SENT to meet with suitors but she didn't care for any of them. Rhaenyra needs to take responsibilities of her own actions, not have her father do everything for her. Which you're not getting here.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Had Viserys only married Rhaenyra to Daemon sooner this wouldn't have happened. Viserys really doesn't care all that much about what her daughter felt at that time. Clearly those suitors were no match for her. The one she had eyes for, Viserys didn't make him an option because he didn't annull his brother's marriage. He married his brother to the heir to Vale coz of Otto's advice, a woman he doesn't like and rumoured to be barren. Otto kept sabotaging Daemon which caused the rift between the two brothers and then he went on to sabotage Rhaenyra. Yet Viserys still kept listening to that snake. He tried being good to all but essentially failed at it miserably, because he really didn't care to understand them.
@@happilyevernever4289 Lol Just no, he didn’t marry Rhaenyra to Daemon because it’s sick and disgusting to being marrying uncle and niece like that. It’s bafffingly sad how you people don’t see the problematic incest with these characters and don’t see how it’s not instantly a problem. Viserys DID care about his daughter thoughts and feelings entirely so, but he was NOT putting her anywhere near Daemon because Daemon is a vicious terrible mess of a person who loves to start trouble JUST for the sake of it, daemon is not suitable for literally anyone for his psychotic nature. No sane person would EVER trust Daemond with anyone. He’s like a likable psychopath but he’s still a violent trouble making psychopath, that should be obvious. Daemon sabotaged himself because he didn’t know how to be reasonable in the slightest Or responsible, daemond gave Viserys EVERY good reason to not trust his own brother as his own brother can’t handle the most simplest tasks without screwing it up as it’s been stated and SHOWN. It’s just sad that you’re show how trying to blame Viserys for ANY of this as Viserys is the only few people who actually care about doing the right and responsible thing. Viserys listened to Otto because not matter how leecherous Otto ultimately was, he still acted reasonably AND appropriately to every given situation on HOW to act and behave. Unlike Rhaenyra and Daemond who are an absolute mess of two people who don’t know what responsibilities are, they just want absolute freedom at the cost of doing everything else which can AND has proven to be destructive. Viserys understood them perfectly, he understood how terrible people his own brother and how immature his own daughter really were as they NEVER grew up. That should be obvious here, seriously. Viserys didn’t “fAiLed” at all, his family failed him despite all the good that he’s been doing for them.
Well though he made some questionable decision, he did try, unlike Bobby B. He even tried to be a good father, making her daughter happy. When he told Otto he didn't wish to command Rhaenyra; he wanted her to be happy, Otto's expression was like "why in the seven hells would you give a shit about that???"
@@theelectricprince8231 none of them were supposed to be heir. Besides, Alicent ended up raising a bunch of little sociopaths, what was Viserys supposed to do, shame Aegon even more for being a depraved little shit? Maybe tell Aemond that he shouldn’t want to kill his nephew for taking his eye? Yeah, I’m sure that would work. Aemond probably could’ve been kept from turning our horrible, he at least has some good things going for him, but Aegon was beyond saving, with nothing to apply any positive reinforcement to.
@@Slender_Man_186 You are insane. The whole reason why they were so messed up is because of Viserys. He proved that he either hated them or didn't care about them. He didn't even discipline Lucy when he cut out Aemond's eye or even speak out against Rhaenyra saying torture Aemond for speaking out the obvious fact that everyone there knows is true. The only reason Aegon was how he was, was because he was crying out to get his father's attention. This is all 100% on Viserys.
@@Slender_Man_186 Alicent was a young teen when she had Aegon 2, and Viserys was a terrible father to his kids with Alicent. Aegon 2 needed a father figure, didn't have one. Aemond was better off since Alicent had him as a 3rd kid and was more mature. Helaena.. well, she's "simple-minded" so that's nothing any parent can really change. (And Daeron in the books is supposedly a chill kid but, he's not in the show so) And so what if they're not all the heirs? That means he can just not give a crap about the rest of his kids? Why'd he bother have them at all honestly, he pampers his adult daughter more than his little kids. Aemond lost his eye and he basically didn't care about it. Aegon 2 knew his father didn't care for him, as did Aemond. How you can support Viserys as a father whatsoever, he enables Rhaenyra in her bad decisions as well.
If Viserys had no choice but to maintain Rhaenyra as heir and any future children only as spares, he should not have married the daughter of one of the most ambitious men in Westeros. Daemon is a wildcard but Viserys should've realised Otto's intentions long before his health started deteriorated. Atleast, he should've strongly supported the alliance between Rhaenyra and Alicent's children to avoid any potential in-fighting. If abdicating would be breaking a precedent, then so was declaring a woman an heir and keeping her the heir even after producing male children. Btw, if we are talking about precedents, we should remember that Targaryen rule is still just a 100 years old and had arguably had only two competent (or at least well-loved) rulers (Aegon and Jahaerys I). The peace during Viserys's reign should partly be attributed to Jahaerys and Alyssane as well as to Otto, and later to Alicent even (according to the show, she seems to be in control towards the end). While the Hightowers are ambitious and seek to delegitimize Rhaenyra, they are still competent enough to ensure that the realm doesn't fall into chaos when the King is bed-ridden.
Otto wasn't the problem. Every lord in Otto's situation would've done the same exact thing, and the war would've still happened as long as Viserys was dumb and still tried to keep Rhaenyra as his heir for no other reason then he felt guilty. Also he knew that Otto was planning to get him to marry Alicent, and he did it anyway, he knew what was going on.
Yup it doesn't matter if her children were true born. Any ambitious lord would've tried to make their blood king. Viserys truly didn't believe that Otta was ambitious. The only way to have blocked ppl like Otto was to make Daemon hand of the king. To protect and ensure Rhaenyras ascension to queen.
I often see Viserys compared with Ned Stark in terms of role and I think it's an interesting thing to contemplate. Ned was a genuinely good *person*, a solid leader, but a rather incompetent player of the Game of Thrones itself. Viserys is a decent guy too, though not as ferociously moral as Ned, he's neither covetous nor cruel. His biggest fault is honestly being a fairly average man of his society, rather than a hero or genius. He did his best with the gifts he had. Great character, and I really enjoyed this analysis of him.
Decent men don't butcher their wives I get what you're saying, he's overall pleasant, has a moral code, earlier in his reign he has a pretty healthy outlook on how to handle dissent, a genuine care for his family, a lot of positive qualities But he crossed a line with Aemma that decency would never allow. As much as I can and do criticise Ned Stark too, there is no force in the seven kingdoms that could compell Ned Stark to hold down his fighting, unmedicated wife to be crudely butchered. Viserys is a complex man with many good qualities, but not a decent man in my estimation
I would not absolve Viserys of responsibility in planting the seeds of the Dance. Like it or not, his choices made an impact and the fact that he did not withdraw his claim in favor of his cousin before all of this is one of the reasons why the dance started. I will agree with you largely that he is a much better King than people will give him credit for based on the books. But you giving him a complete pass on his failures and how they led to the dance is a bit much.
I disagree the succession problem and the dance of the dragon seeds was planted since jaehearis great council and then viserys stop it from happening from another 37 years.
8:38 describing deamons actions as head of the city watch. perfect opportunity to define them as "draconian." extreme was used instead. absolutely fumbled
A second wife would not work. Aegon's polygamy was tolerated because he'd just conquered the realm. But it still lead to a succession crisis with Maegor usurping Aenys. Viserys having a son to a second wife would not bring stability to the realm. I don't recall the details but I'm sure when the Crown and Faith came to a compromise to stop the fighting, it was either incest that had to go or polygamy and the Targs chose to keep incest. As for Viserys marrying Rhaenyra, there's zero evidence of any Targs marrying their children. It's always been brother to sister, neice/nephew to aunt/uncle. It's difficult enough for GRRM to get his audience on board with incest, making the incest father/daughter mother/son is a boundary too far.
The point that viserys thinks he doesn’t have time to wait around to make a new heir falls a little short to me. If that was the case then he would’ve been looking for a new marriage as soon as he lost emma, but when corlys brings this up he admits he hangs even thought about marrying again, he definitely is not in a rush to make more heirs
viserys had a good rule, BUT he failed to make long term plans to maintain peace after his death. A good historical analogy is the emperorHadrian If you judge him by how the empire prospered under his rule, he was great. If you judge him by how things immediately went to shit when the long term problems her created came back to haunt the empire after his death, then he was not good at all. Viserys was kind, but short-sighted.
Hadrian created long term problems? That doesn't vibe with my understanding of Roman history, I'd peg him as being one of the more forward thinking emperors. Throughout the empire it's rare to see someone consider the state after they are gone beyond "my son(s) will rule". Augustus did it, Diocletian attempted it (with little success), and Hadrian in choosing both the immediate successor but also their successor in turn did it, and that second successor was Marcus Aurelius, who would turn out to be a good choice for handling the beginning of the downward slope for Rome. I'm not sure what cans Hadrian consciously kicked down the road.
@@RmsOceanic Excellent points, it is a classic debate amongst historians, but the way I heard it, there is a faction that insists that when Hadrain pulled out of the territories that Trajan conquered, it seemed like a good idea for about a generation, because those territories were expensive to maintain. But not long after Hadrian died, it became clear those territories had also served as a buffer against invasions, and the wars and difficulties that plague the reign of Marcus Aurelius were arguably the result of Hadrian giving up those buffer areas. It makes sense to me. But I 100% agree that Hadrian choosing not one, but two successors, both of whom also to great rulers was an incredible move. Hadrian might be my pick for the single best emperor actually. But being best is not the same as being perfect, he made mistakes and the pull out was probably one of them.
@@RmsOceanic Also, for the record, the reason Hadrian was able to move beyond "my son will rule" is because he was gay. That's not even speculation, Hadrian had a marriage ceremony and everything with a young man. It was considered very strange at the time, even people in the ancient world who engaged in homosexual sex did not really have marriage ceremonies. Hadrian is arguable the first person we know of to be "gay" in the modern sense. So he had no sons to pass power on too because he had no woman in his life capable of giving him sons. That's why he was in a position to put more thought into who his heirs would be. And he ended up picking 2 amazingly good choices who are still remembered as great almost 2000 years later. But just in case you didn't know: Hadrian was openly gay and had no children that we know of.
Definitely one of the most emotional and compelling characters/performance in either of the shows, and he definitely has fierce competition in that regard. Expertly written, and the fact that George RR Martin said so himself gives me a lot of trust in the direction of the show. I gotta say I didn't have high hopes for this show, but Viserys alone has totally sold me on looking forward to more seasons.
Well, the fact he's played by Patty Considine helps. That guy was an excellent protagonist in the 3rd season of Peaky Blinders and he's been on my radar ever since.
About the second wife thing, that would've destroyed any goodwill the throne had with the faith - the faith is monogomous, basically everyone in Westeros folows it, and when maegor took multiple wives it cause reign-long rebellions, and maybe got him killed (But I agree with everything else tho, I hope I don't come across as dickish, sorry if I do)
maegor is a perfect example of this. the followers of the seven have a larger following than anyone would think, which makes sense since it's based off middle-age christianity. maegor would have most likely been pushed out or killed either way, but the rebellion against him was pushed harder by the faith than anyone else.
That's a good point. I'm not sure it's fair to say he chose to murder his wife. His wife and child were either both going to die or one of them had an opportunity to live. I agree he definitely should've let her make the decision. But there was no option where his wive lives (at least according to the maester). I believe he continually got bad advice from the maesters due the Otto and the Hightowers scheming. He was the victim of medical malpractice in my opinion.
I don't know if the suggestion to marry with Rhaenyra was the best one too (or even a good one at all). Despite the fact that with Jaehaerys, the marriage between siblings were more accepted in Westeros, there is no precedent that we know of with the marriage of a father and a daughter. I think that also would generate a war with the faith and make the realm bleed too
Disagree. Meagre just was cruel ultimately and stoked too much fire with no willingness for diplomacy Jaherys literally made the Targyrean exceptionalism concept to legitimise their incest marriages in the eyes of the common man.
@@niccoloparker3548 incest is more more easy for the faith to rationalize since cousin marriage already exists in Westeros, but the faith very clearly draws the line for what they allow the Targaryens to get away with at point of polygamy, hence why no king from Jahaerys onward has no more than one wife at a time
In the show Rhaenyra values the song of ice and fire and she even considers letting Aegon be king in the finale. She even questioned if she should be heir to Viserys in ep. 8. Why do you assume she would start a dance of dragons if she was disinherited? Nothing in the show suggests she would risk the kingdom over bitterness
Well, many of her supporters, particularly Daemon, all would've pushed her to fight, like how most of Alicent's Council also pushed to take action sooner than later Viserys was an inept King and let the 2 Factions grow apart and fester till he died.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Daemon on his own really isn't much of a threat though. He'd still have the Hightowers and the Greens, with the absence of Rhaenyra and her Dragons, the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North. Daemon couldn't even take out Vaghar without dying in the process. His war would have probably been just a prolonged siege on Dragonstone.
@@amelancholybear1534 Kinda missing the point. Edit: Plus the point isn't to cause damage; it's to kill off the Greens. Maybe to do so in a wedding or something. Assassination or straight up murder is on the table.
@@thalmoragent9344 outside of Daemon, how many of Rhaenyra's supporters do you imagine would push her to fight if she wasn't the rightful heir? I'd also like to point out that she stood up to Daemon and/or challenged his ideas multiple times this season, even as a child
I mean it does help that HotD made Viserys into a *far* more compelling character than book Viserys. HotD Viserys is just such a better, more tragic character compared to Book Viserys just being "Fat Aenys", or "Jovial, Peaceful Robert". Also I know it's a little shallow but I love his "Baldwin IV"-style mask.
About your point that Viserys should have taken a second wife alongside Aemma... the Doctrine of Exeptionalism that Jahaerys I Targaryen worked out with the Faith of the Seven only allowed incestuous marriages, and not polygamy. Him taking a second wife would have annoyed the Faith again, and while the Faith Militant was already disbanded, Viserys probably did not want to take the risk and start another uprising when the last one was the biggest threat to the rule of the Targaryens since the Conquest. Otto would also have stopped him if he tried given that the Hightowers have traditionally been supportive of the Faith.
Your videos are always so on point that now when I click in, I automatically hit the like button just so I don't forget because I'm already completely confident in the quality of content you provide. You never disappoint. Thanks for so many great videos.
I've done this too! Even when I disagree, it's the kind of disagreement where I thought more deeply and learned something interesting about my own point of view, so I still feel like it deserves a like.
For me, one of Viserys' biggest fails as king was not calling Rhaenyra to King's Landing to take over as regent when his health was keeping him from most of his duties.
A concept not explored is Coregency (Joint Rule), something England, France, Spain, Russia the Scandinavian countries e.g. all have practice at some point. He could have named her his Co-Queen and have her rule when he wasn't around. Then slowly giving her more and more responsibilities. First make her the de facto ruler of first Kingslanding, expand it to all domestic affairs of Westeros (once she have proven herself), and give her complete rule once he was to sick to do it himself.
I can see why Viserys I is compared to Bobby B as a King. They do share similarities (conflict avoiders to the detriment of rising tensions in court; big on tourneys, royal hunts, food, drink, and other royal indulgences; never expected to be kings; definitely understand women and are fantastic husbands 🤨🤨, etc.) but it bothers me a bit bc at least Viserys TRIES. He dutifully attends each council meeting, he embraces his responsibilities and tries to react accordingly- even if it’s not always the best response, and he asserts his authority when he needs to (like sending Daemon away twice, unlike when Bobby B just refuses to step into conflict he doesn’t care about- which gets Lady the Direwolf killed). Alicent was right when she said that he’d have had a happier, longer life if he’d remained a lord at Court, but he never begrudged his lot in life like Robert did, but tried to do the best he could for the realm. I’m not a massive fan of the guy but I love the nuance HOTD imbued him with :,) he’s a very human king
I would not Robert as being a conflict avoider lmao, he’s kinda like the opposite of Viserys in that regard, he doesn’t care that much about keeping as many people happy as possible he’s sorta indifferent mostly and he’s certainly not the type to be afraid to exercise his authority unlike Viserys.
@@Dell-ol6hb not conflict avoidant in terms of placation, more in the sense that he himself avoids conflict 💀 his admitting to Ned that he dreams of abandoning it all and running east in pursuit of glory says it all, he wasn’t built for leadership and disregards all pretext of command whenever he can
LOL what? I know you saying "definitely understand women and are fantastic husbands" is sarcasm but except for what he did to his first wife at her final birthing scene which was sick to see but understandable given the situation of the era, Viserys DOES understand women and IS a fantastic husband as he's treated his first wife Emma VERY well and kinda. Robert Baratheon most certainly DOES NOT understand women and only cares to have sex with them and treats them like any other guy and he was a BAD husband unfortunately based on how he treated cersei. The same can NOT be said about Viserys because he ACTUALLY understood women and tried his wife VERY well like any good husband should, except for her final birth scene which as I said, was sick and twisted.
@@Gadget-Walkmen he married his first wife Aemma Arryn when she was eleven (in 93AC) and promptly forced as many children on her as possible in pursuit of a male heir- she is said to have suffered many miscarriages and cradle deaths because of how young she was. Finally he butchers her without even informing her first because he very obviously valued a potential son over her physical and emotional wellbeing. He married a fifteen year old Alicent Hightower next and impregnated her 3/4 times despite her being the same age as his daughter, and despite her very clearly not wanting him. Obviously it’s a different world and time period and men were not beholden to the same standards as they are today, but for a franchise which has a primary focus on gender inequality and the brutal silencing of women, he is not nor was he ever a “fantastic husband”. He loved his first wife, but he very clearly utilized her life and death for his own ends. I would go so far as to say that NO men in Westeros truly understand the perspective of the women in their lives, they are just so fundamentally removed
@@Sophie-vq1xw Most of what you said here are completely narrow minded views in perspective of what the series and the people are about in the series AND in real life, seemingly because of sensitivity of the subject. "he married his first wife Aemma Arryn when she was eleven (in 93AC) and promptly forced as many children on her as possible in pursuit of a male heir- she is said to have suffered many miscarriages and cradle deaths because of how young she was." We have NO idea on how old she was when they got married. What happened in the books is NOT what happened in the show as the video explains they are written differently and the characters are vastly much more aged up in the show compared to the books. Yes. the women in this era are treated like cattle but that's the whole point of SHOWING how the inequality of such a medieval era that women were ultimately used to produce more babies, even WHEN they're in the highest position in the world as Queen. "Finally he butchers her without even informing her first because he very obviously valued a potential son over her physical and emotional wellbeing." Someone else already said this perfectly in the comment section so I'm just going to quote him here, "I just don't understand why people act like Viserys killed his wife. They state in plain Jane English that she's dead either way, but the only way to possibly save the baby is through an emergency C-Section. So the choice was either give Aemma a slow, painful death that will guarantee both the baby dies with his wife, or a quicker, painful death that has a chance to save the baby. There is literally no logical reason to choose the first option. The next argument is always "well he should have told her first" and I guess? But she's inebriated to hell and back on basically heroine (milk of the poppy) so by any standard of consent, she can't give it. Telling her what's about to happen is a surefire way to get her to start panicking before she can be properly restrained, further risking the procedure and therefore the baby. And some kind of decision needs to be made as soon as possible to minimize risk. In the cold brutal calculus of the scene, Viserys made literally the only choice that might have salvaged anything from the situation, and I can't help but feel people's empathy for Aemma gets in the way of that reality. She was dead. There was no hope for her. He did not sentence her to death because she was already dead. If the procedure wasn't shown in such gruesome, gut wrenching detail, I feel like more people would be sympathetic to his choice. It's an effective scene in that regard but people come to the wrong conclusions over it." Yes it was BRUTAL thing to do in that era regradless but it was the only thing TO DO to get anything out of it. "He married a fifteen year old Alicent Hightower next and impregnated her 3/4 times despite her being the same age as his daughter, and despite her very clearly not wanting him." He married her because he HAD to marry someone and she presenting herself as a suitor. That's something of a VERY common norm. We have no idea if he "forced her" to have sex with him at all. You say "despite her very clearly not wanting him" because we the audience SAW her face as she was upset with the situation but that was it. As far as we can tell, She owned up to the situation and had kids because she was She reluctantly had sex with him obviously as we saw but Viserys didn't see or know that as we saw. You're taking that out of context. Viserys having sex with his wives to produce more children is expected out of him and EVERYONE of that time and era. He's not doing anything that he's doing out of selfish purposes. He's doing these things out of obligation to the crown he serves which ALL men and women are expected to do. "Obviously it’s a different world and time period and men were not beholden to the same standards as they are today" You say this but there are several times you show that you don't understand this at all based on what you're saying as it seems you're just taking offense of the situation REGRADLESS of the era. All you're doing is projecting 21th century morals to a medieval time period where kids were made to wed each other as soon as they were 12 to 13 years old and seen as adults and even go off to war even at that same age. What you're saying doesn't make any sense as Alicent was of age to have kids at teenage (We don't know how old she was nor was it said she was 15 in the show at all) because she was seen as a women during that time. Even a century ago teenagers were considered adults, times change perspective ALL the time. You're not seeing the big picture of this at all. "He loved his first wife, but he very clearly utilized her life and death for his own ends." That's not true at all as he didn't "utilized her life and death for his own ends" as he was had to make use of what he had based on what was expected of him. Yes, it was a sick and twisted thing to do, but he didn't have much of any other choice because she was already dead. He WAS a good enough fantastic husband based on what on the time of the era (before the accident as far as we can tell on how Aemma and Viserys cared for each other) as he AND his wife were expected to have children and especially sons as it was their duty to do so, not out of some callous ambition. He's not forcing his wife to have kids because he's trying to be cruel, he's doing so because it's expected out of HIM and every other men in that era TO produce more heirs. That's JUST the way how the world works and Viserys is doing the best he could given the situation. Even Aegon was forced to be king despite him not wanting to be so as everyone had their roles to play. Everyone has aa role to play in order to keep things going during a medieval era Simple as that but you're not getting this and you're saying REALLY nonsensical statements here about the men in westeros here. I would go so far as to say that NO men in Westeros truly understand the perspective of the women in their lives, they are just so fundamentally removed That's so wrong as it's unbelievable for you to even say as there are men who are most certainly NOT "fundamentally removed" at all. You say that "no men" in westeros doesn't understand the "perspective of the women in their lives" is just plain wrong as there's been several men who DO understand the position of women as to NOT abuse or forceful against any of them like Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Jon Snow, Samwise Tarly, and even Tyrion Lannister. You're JUST being over sensitive about the subject and badly upset over past era stuff that was JUST done for it's time. JUST like in real life because for you to say that "no men in westeros doesn't understand the perspective of women" is just plain nonsensical to say and just wrong. Seriously, WHAT is that you're even saying right now because that's so obviously wrong it's painful to see someone even say.
I think Viserys is the best onscreen king of the entire franchise. The books barely describe him, and as you stated what we know from the literature are highlights of the negative things from his reign.
He was a fool. He knew his daughter was performing adultery and bore bastards but he chose to protect her honor without ANY punishment. He should've stripped her status as crown princess and named Aegon instead. This would stop the quarrel and maintain order in court.
Someone said perfectly "He is actually a great administrator and ruler, but a poor family mediator, which, in a feudal system; sadly effects the former"
I think him bringing his second batch of kids together with Rhaenyra was almost impossible TBH, at least how it's shown on the show. I'd wager like you mentioned the thing that kept him away from Alicents kids was simply his sickness and nothing really else. It would be hard to believe that a man like that with so much joy would dismiss those children, and he seemed to love watching them spar when they were between 8-14 in the courtyard. It likely wasn't shown why he grew disinterested in Alicent's children, but up until that age I doubt very much that's the case. It's pretty clear to me that the divide came from Otto and Otto alone, with Alicent passing on that paranoia to her very own children from a young age. The last episode of the season had Rhaenyra being queen much like her fatherwas king, in that peace was the best answer... until she had probably one of the worst 48 hours of her life. Otto told Alicent in the earlier parts of the season that she would come after her children and I just don't see that happening based on how Rhaenyra acted initially towards anyone. The fear was struck into Alicent when her kids were young and it's fairly obvious she put the same fear into them that her father put into her years prior. To me there's just no chance that Rhaenrya, Aegon, Aemond and Haelena would ever truly get along. Viserys could never give the same attention to his second batch of kids due to an aliment and Alicent had been raising her children with a clear intention of dividing them from Rhaenyra's children. Jace and Luke seemed to get along quite well with Aegon initially in a couple scenes, whether it be pranked Aemond or the initial scene where they were fighting in the court yard. Only when prodded by Criston Cole were Alicents kids, especially Aegon reminded about their 'loyalties', which brought Harwin into the picture as well. This is all unbeknownst to Viserys and not really his fault, it's clear Alicents children were always pushed towards "us vs them" from a young age.
His health was critical when his kids by Alicent were 18 or more. On the first time jump, with the kids being adolescents he was sane despite he lacking in mobility. I honestly don’t feel like they were not close just because of his sickness. He didn’t make a connection with his children, the scene after Aemond loses his eye shows some that, he only defends the princess even with his other kid severely injured. Aegon was a drunk and Halaena had antisocial behavior. Viserys didn’t seem to care much for them, only for Rhaenyra
@@danielhenrique4466 when Aemond lost his eye Viserys was put into an impossible situation really. Yes he obviously cares about Rhaenyra more (parents IRL do show favorites too), but he's being asked to go along with maiming one of his grandsons because it's fair. No grandfather, let alone King would allow that to happen. Children fight and children do maim each other accidently. Even though in this case it wasn't really an accident. The first big time jump showed him watching them in the courtyard and visibly in bad shape. That's just a glimpse or a moment, but it clearly shows that he cares about both his grandsons and his sons. Keep in mind this is also the portion of the show where the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children is flaunted around far more openly, by both Alicent, Criston Cole (in the courtyard) and Viserys/Alicents children as we later found out. It was probably at that moment that Viserys figured out what was truly happening and his only real recourse was to stand behind his daughter. He couldn't execute Alicent or punish her, after Alicent lunged towards Rhaenyra. He wasn't going to punish his own sons, let alone his grand children. His only recourse was to stand firm by Rhaenyra being his heir because doing anything else would've sown even more chaos, even though he knew the kids weren't legitimate. It's very true that he favorites Rhaenyra, but it's also fairly likely that the way Alicent raised her kids (regardless of how present Viserys was) was always going to push them into the direction that they already were. Paranoid, uncaring, or weird in the case of the daughter. Rhaenyra is no angel and she was raised by Viserys in his prime. Very few Targaryen's regardless of whether they have a healthy or unhealthy relationship with their parents turn out well. Viserys is an exception, not the rule. Luke and Jace both turned out far better than any of Alicents kids did, and it probably has far more to do with the mother raising them than the father (which is pretty common in history anyway).
The snippets do show he was happy that Rhaes kids were getting along with Alicents, following Aegon in his tessing of Aemond notwithstanding. Heck Helaena is even shown to be comfortable around Jace, something she’s only shown with Aemond. Not even liking Alicent touching her.
14:11 Don't forget targs don't marry twice anymore because of the faith's uprising that happened because Maegor had two wives, after him there isn't a king that had two wives at the same time
He failed at every turn. Failed to control his brother, faild to control his wife ,failed to raise any of his children properly ,failed to pick good advisors ,failed to make good political decisions, failed to fix his mistakes. There is not one person in his life he didn't fail in some crucial way.
The homie coming through, yet again, as ever, with the most essential knowledge on how to make sense of story, in the diagesis of the story itself. Thank you, sir.
A second wife while he was married to Aemma would've just brought unfavorable comparisons to Maegor, i think. I doubt anyone would've taken well to Viserys doing anything remotely like Jaehaerys' hated predecessor, it would've been such a bad move that would've alienated a lot of people left over from the old king's reign
No, a good king puts the future of his people and the realm first. He would have set Aegon up as his successor as soon as he was born, or keep Rhaenyra and not marry at all. He was a bad King, that had some good scenes but made tons of mistakes while being extremely naive and disrespecting the succession law that his predecessors vassals voted for. And he was indecisive when it came to the stepstones. He completely neglected the children he had with Alicent, so he was also not a good father to anyone besides Rhaenyra.
I just don't understand why people act like Viserys killed his wife. They state in plain Jane English that she's dead either way, but the only way to possibly save the baby is through an emergency C-Section. So the choice was either give Aemma a slow, painful death that will guarantee both the baby dies with his wife, or a quicker, painful death that has a chance to save the baby. There is literally no logical reason to choose the first option. The next argument is always "well he should have told her first" and I guess? But she's inebriated to hell and back on basically heroine (milk of the poppy) so by any standard of consent, she can't give it. Telling her what's about to happen is a surefire way to get her to start panicking before she can be properly restrained, further risking the procedure and therefore the baby. And some kind of decision needs to be made as soon as possible to minimize risk. In the cold brutal calculus of the scene, Viserys made literally the only choice that might have salvaged anything from the situation, and I can't help but feel people's empathy for Aemma gets in the way of that reality. She was dead. There was no hope for her. He did not sentence her to death because she was already dead. If the procedure wasn't shown in such gruesome, gut wrenching detail, I feel like more people would be sympathetic to his choice. It's an effective scene in that regard but people come to the wrong conclusions over it.
100% agree, plus what would these same people do in that situation? Knowing their wife was dead either way, would they not attempt to save their child?
THIS THIS THIS. The scene makes pains to tell us she will not survive this labour. There is no option where she lives, or where Viserys can choose to save her. Of course she’s terrified, who wouldn’t be? That’s the only human reaction to what is happening to her, and it’s heart breaking. But I can’t see any alternative. And even the idea that he should have stopped trying to have children with her…. I just can’t see that being conceivable to either of them in that time, in their position. For him to just stop going to her bed? For her to drink abortifacients after? As king and queen responsible for propagating the royal line? Even Aemma herself has that whole conversation with Rhaenyra where she impresses on her that bearing children is the highest and almost only duty of royal and noble women. On a human level, yeah, it’s awful. But in the social reality of that situation, it was what it was, fair or no.
Right? I thought the exact same thing. There didn't seem to be any way to save the queen. What should he have done differently? Let both, the child and mother die? Asking the mother for her opinion is a strange point. We don't ask patients while they are in severe pain, stress and under the influence for their opinion.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 exactly... there really was no way to give her a choice or even a warning. A warning would have panicked her just as much and not made it any less painful. The only other option was letting her and the baby die much more slowly, sadly.
I so agree with the last point. At the very least, he should have made Rhaenyra hand so that she could gradually take power as he was dying. It was a massive failure of judgement for her to leave and for him to let her. (I still agree with the previous points about him overall having better judgement than people give him credit for.)
You lost me at the Aemma situation, it was horrible thing and heartbreaking. But the Maestors gave him no choice, one lives or both die. She was going to die either way, wether the baby got out or not her fate was sealed. Viserys is at fault for not noticing sooner the risk Aemma was in and seeing Rhaenyra’s potential but the way her death went was necessary for the baby, ofc Baelon died as well but his fate was sealed as well, die in the womb or have a chance to live even if it was a very thin chance. I don’t justify Viserys’s actions here but there wasn’t any other choice, save one or lose both. Also it’s not Corlys who married Rhaenyra it was his son Leanor, just noticed that little mistake
@@Alexwright12 that was happening during the childbirthing and Aemma could have died anytime and the child with her. Sadly, there was no time to give her a choice.
@@Alexwright12he was sacrificing the love of his life for the prince that was promised to protect millions of people from the oncoming doom of the white walkers
Am I the only one to think Otto was smart to be spying on Daemon? In fact I would say it was his job as hand of the king to be spying on the next heir and greatest threat to the throne. Of course the King should have tabs on Daemon. And Otto deserves more credit for actually governing the realm for so long.
13:28 Setting aside the obvious debate, this truly was loathsome, as you put it; Viserys should’ve let Aemma have her say in this, since it’s her life on the line.
Great video ! I think you forgot one mistake (and a big one) : taking back Otto Hightower as his Hand. He rightly identified him as a threat to the peace and should have stuck to that call. Otto's influence was definitly a big factor in Allicent's turn for the worse and their kid's entitlement. Viserys should have choosen a Hand to would facilitated the succession instead of opposing it.
Viserys already recognized Otto was trying to scheme Aegon onto the throne when he fired him the first time, bringing him back was just about the worst call he could've made. It was at that point after the death of Lyonel Strong that he should've asked Daemon to be Hand of the King, or even had Rhaenyra do it as Baelon had under Jaehaerys. Really there was only one wrong answer, and Viserys picked it
I think Viserys' biggest mistake was reinstating Otto as hand of the king. He knew Otto would always put his house and personal ambitions before the realm, but he let Allicent manipulate him into making Otto hand. Which to the surprise of no one he used to usurp Rhaenyra's throne. He also should've had Crisitin Cole executed after murdering Joffrey, and sent Allicent back to Oldtown after she attacked Rhaenyra.
At the end of the day his lack of action to truly settle the dispute of succession started a civil war, just because he was a good man does not make him a good king, he was great at keeping the realm prosperous during his reign yes, but his inaction caused a civil war and downfall of his house.
Good? Sure. Great? I think that’s a stretch. His straight up denial of his grandsons being bastards was pretty bad. Then there’s the fact he tries to break tradition that the male inherits first in siblings. Yes, from our viewpoint we may not see an issue, but from those who live in this story, Viserys is breaking tradition. Hell, even Jahaerys made it clear during the great council that even if you try to claim through the mother to their male heir it won’t be socially accepted. So Viserys playing nilly with succession laws was always going to be a bad idea. And lastly I disagree about Alicent being a good match in the political sense. The Hightowers were already solid with Otto being on the council. Outside of the Hightowers getting more power, I don’t see any real benefit in marrying her in the political sense. Now as for the Valareon’s it makes a lot of sense as Corlys felt cheated, and every slight was going to create problems.
I agree on everything but you saying Alicent wasn't a good match. The Hightowers were one of the strongest and richest houses in the realm. The show didn't show how powerful they were.
@@AaronGuest oh I know the Hightowers are powerful. But I just don’t see how giving a house who already had at one point, had the hand of the king position more power would be a good idea. You want to limit how much power a house has so the can’t overthrow you. And although I don’t believe Otto would’ve overthrown Viserys while he was alive, it’s still just good politics to cover your back.
@@ryanelliott71698 The Hightowers wouldn't just be able to overthrow him. Especially not when the next king would have Hightower blood, and why would Otto even attempt to overthrow Aegon or Viserys, the Targaryens have dragons, doing that would be nothing more then suicide. And by that logic, he definitely shouldn't have married a Velaryon, because they have a lot of power also.
@@AaronGuest wrong way of phrasing it. What I was thinking in my head was that high positions such as the small council where you don’t want to just fill it with one house of kingdom. As doing so could anger other lords who want a position on the council. Marriage is no different. It’s a political tool. So giving the Hightowers another “position” when they’ve already got one would mean it’s going to waste. That’s why marrying Leana would’ve been a better option as it pacifies Corlys, who feels bitter after being wronged several times to getting his blood on the iron throne.
Viserys breaking tradition wouldn't have mattered if he hadn't divided house Targaryen, even if the lords had rebelled when Rhaenyra became queen they wouldn't had stood a chance against the mfckers with dragons.
I knew someone once who said that making a good choice requires you to have good options. I've never forgotten that, and I think it applies well to Viserys.
I absolutely love your videos. One of the most interesting arcs to me from HOTD was Ser Criston Cole's, from lowborn nobody to Rhaenyra's bodyguard, then her (debateably willingly) boytoy, then finally Alicent's man. I would love to hear your insight on this if you choose to examine this in a future video. Thank you for making this content for us!
I also think a marriage with Laena would be a failure because the new child, if ever conceived, would have the exact same outcome with the Hightowers replaced by Velaryons with mightier armies and dragons. The new "son" would have a much stronger backing making Rhaenyra's claim even worse.
Honestly if his last words about some prophecy hadn’t been misinterpreted, then probably he would have handled a tense political situation and narrowly avoided war.
For Rhaenyras kids it’s also a known fact Laenor was gay. That + the fact they are Rhaenyras kids makes turning a blind eye easy, and indeed Rhaenyra still had loyal lords even in spite of the unspoken truth of her kids.
What a fantastic video. Throughout the show I was constantly upset with viserys' decisions. But he was still my favorite character by a mile, a flawed but good man. A flawed king who did some very good things.
He could have renewed the pledge that names Rhaenyra as his heir even after Aegon was born, and he should have appointed her as hand and regent to rule in his stead. The first gives the greens the pretense to usurp the throne after his passing, the second hands them the means to do so. If you wanted a civil war after your death, how would you do that? I'd align two factions against eachother, keep my prefered succesor vague, and make sure that the least legitimate side is given the opportunity to make a move. Viserys could hardly have done worse if he tried, unless he privately told Alicent that he intended for Aegon to succeed him right before his death for laughs. Wouldn't that be stupid.
I do not think Viserys is a bad king at all. But the first banishment of Daemon was a trigger to Viserys losing to Otto. Without Daemon in Kings landing, there was no one to point out that Alicent getting close to Viserys was Otto's ploy. Whether grief stricken or not Daemon wouldve been honest right away to Viserys. In the books ASOIAF, When Janos Slynt was Commander of the City Watch, Roberts tourney to celebrate Ned Stark's appointment as hand experienced a lot of crimes before or during the tourney. Daemon's actions was cruel and harsh, but it made sense since Lords and Ladies of different houses would be in Kings landing as much as its a cleanup it also served as a warning.
allowed needs to be in BOLD there. He made some risks and it cost him, but he made them consciously believing that he was making the right choice. I really liked how a lot of people thought they had fooled him when in fact he knew about most of what was happening and was instead playing his own game and got mostly everything he wanted
@@AN-sm9ju I disagree. The house was already in disarray before. Jaehaerys was considered "the best king" but look closely and you see how much his house was ALREADY a mess and all he did was postpone the fall. Hell, most of his children died before him, some a direct result of his actions. And this is THE BEST King. His daughter's illegitimate children was not his fault which was a big part of what caused the war. Yes, naming his daughter heir was a bold move, but is it really that much of a mistake? He did it cause he believed that she was the best choice, and wasn't he right? Even with her being a woman (a risk he was aware of) and her children (again, not his fault) it still ONLY doesn't work out because of a miscommunication with his wife when he was SICK AND DYING. All the man did was try to put a woman on the throne, and it only failed because of things out of his control, I don't know if i can call that a mistake. Marrying Alicent was a mistake and it was all a plan of the Hightowers, but Jaehaerys was actually the one that named Otto hand of the king in the first place, and Viserys trusted his father's judgement but, as we know, he discovered later on that Otto didn't have his best interests in mind. And it's not like that mistake changes much, does it? He still makes the marriage alliance with the Velaryon, and Alicent was actually a good Queen. When i truly look at it, despite his mistake of marrying for love, and his risky bet of putting a woman on the throne, he did a pretty good job of handling the mess that he was dealt. Again, Jaehaerys was called the best King and yet it was clear that during his reign the Targaryen house was already crumbling. Jaehaerys was able to hold it, Viserys was not, but let's not pretend he caused something that was brewing way before he was born. Sure, he could have done better, but, like this video arguees, when you look at the finer details, Viserys did a fine job with the hand he was dealt
@@Mananpicar Jaehaerys is not Viserys' father, he's his grandfather. And making Rhaenyra heir was fine when he had no other children but then he decided to marry again and have tons of other kids and doubled down on keeping Rhaenyra as heir despite having 3 sons now. This pretty much made it guarenteed that there would be civil war upon his death and yet he did basically nothing for decades to try and prevent it or stop it, causing one of the worst wars in the history of the continent killing countless people, crippling his house and killing all the Targaryen dragons, you know I don't know man that seems like an enormous failure to me. And you're right that this started with Jaehaerys ultimately since he was the one who set the precedent on female succession but Viserys was absolutely not dealt a bad hand at all, his bad choices were what made most of the issues of his reign.
On the topic of Viserys accepting Rhaenyra's first three sons, the only thing that would've likely improved the situation was him privately accepting the fact that they were bastards-even while proclaiming legitimacy. Rhaenyra states that she and Laenor tried to have legitimate children, but it just wasn't happening. Meanwhile, as you stated, Viserys feels the the Targaryen line needs to be strengthened through more heirs. Especially Rhaenyra as heir apparent. Making her annul her marriage to Laenor in favor of a spouse who could "provide heirs" would've been political suicide. It would have publicly alienated House Velaryon through their own heir apparent. Not to mention the loss of the benefits they reaped at bridging the gap between the houses since the Great Council decision between Viserys and Rhaenys. However, Laenor seemed willing and even happy to declare the children as his own. So, as far as Viserys is concerned, there's no disservice being done to his son-in-law (who seems happy enough as a father/husband) and his daughter has solidified her line with three male heirs to follow her. The major issue, aside from the outward appearances of the kids as a dead giveaway of illegitimacy, was the constant contention brought up by Alicent and the Greens. Viserys seemed to believe if he just "faked it till he made it" the issue would go away. But clearly Alicent in particular was not having it, and no doubt was sick of being gaslit about an obvious fact. A smarter thing to do, or attempt quietly at least, would be to have total honesty on the matter with only Alicent, Rhaenyra, and Laenor. No one else. This should have been hashed out in the utmost privacy between the four of them, where Viserys could have said: Rhaenyra and Laenor have an arrangement, as long as they are willing to keep to it then publicly we'll declare the boy legitimate. But no one is being fooled. Subsequently, in the best case scenario, they could even strategize and think of ways to deal with the pitfalls of this arrangement for the sake of the children and themselves. For example, what Viserys did with the dragon eggs in their cradles to strengthen legitimacy. Or, maybe even bringing up that one idea of marrying Helaena to Jaecerys. Etc, etc. Do I personally think Alicent would've accepted this or been happy about it? No. Of course not. But it is clear that blatantly ignoring the issue to her face and giving weak excuses was only making the tension worse. As we saw with the scene where Alicent tries to take Lucerys's eye for Aemond's, it's clear she's most frustrated about doing her duty and being ignored when she's wronged or when someone else doesn't get the same consequences to their actions as she would. As her husband, Viserys knows that Alicent was getting continually frustrated at talking around the issue and being ignored. Although it wouldn't fix it, Viserys being honest and open (even privately) with his wife would've at least eased the tension. Best case, though unlikely, scenario is that Alicent feels included in resolving the issue and is more willing to seal the breach with a marriage between her children and Rhaenyra's. Probably one of the reasons that she rejected this suggestion in the show was due to her already mounting frustration, it would essentially be forcing her to accept the gaslighting by her husband and Rhaenyra publicly for THEIR sake-not hers. Meanwhile, honesty about their legitimacy in private would've given her a better sense of autonomy in making the decision. Rather than feeling pressured by public opinion of the council or the kingdom. Remember, Rhaenyra made the betrothal suggestion in a public setting rather than approaching Alicent and Viserys privately. This was almost definitely an attempt to help force Alicent's hand on the matter. Even Lord Otto, Lord Strong, and the Velaryons respectfully approached Viserys privately when making their betrothal suggestions.
The Dance was mostly caused by Otto and Daemon. They are both second sons that are selfish and ambitious (though they express it in different ways). More than anyone else, they push the realm to war. You could argue that the political system itself pushes second sons to behave like this as they will always have a legitimate bone to pick with the status quo. Rhaenyra also gets a big portion of the blame. Having three bastards sons really weakened her political position and she has to own that foolishness.z Don't forget Lary's Strong influence either. He clearly helps advance the Dance and wields a power Visery's can't really fight. King Viserys really only real mistake was trusting Otto too much. I think the falling out with his Hightower children was inevitable one he realized the true scope of Otto's treachery. it's hard to really connect with children once you know they're pawns being used against you. It's only natural to what to keep some professional distance.
Thank you. The other characters are grown adults with their own choices to make and own. Just because Viserys left room for them to engage in shitty behavior does not absolve them of responsibility for their own actions.
Let's not forget Laenor was obvious in his interest in men and was not good at acting loving or doting with Rhaenyra. Viserys most likely saw this too and understood that after a few years his daughter would have to do what she had to do to keep the line going, if Laenor could not perform Rhaenyra had to continue the line herself. She even states this to Daemon when reunited. When Viserys second of his name is born from Daemon and Rhaenyra the King Viserys states, "Now that is the name of a King." Take that as you will but King Viserys knew his nephew -grandson was true born.
You mentioned about the (political) pragmatism of Viserys marrying Rhaenyra, and of course we know the Targaryens did practice dynastic incest, but were there ever any parent/child marriages? I was under the impression that was a bridge too far even for them.
I think they did, but usually it wasn't the royal heirs doing that, it was the cousins and kin from the time they were living on Dragonstone in the wake of the Doom.
He is my favourite character in the whole series, even though a lot could have been avoided if he had just married the 12 year old 😂😂🥲 I loved his loyalty and love for Rhaenyra, even if it wasn't always easy
Bro no, Otto was making up the claims of Daemon to try and have him removed from the council entirely, Daemon wanted to be his hand, his most trusted advisor but there was always Otto who was scheming against Viserys and Viserys was too weak to see it, so sorry that one counts against Viserys.
@@unmarkd7123 when Otto is telling Viserys how brutal he was with the kingsguard, (not defending that, he was) Viserys tells Otto, when he was master of laws you said he was corrupt etc. Otto always tried to get rid of Daemon and made every excuse to get him out of his council positions, had Viserys made Daemon hand instead of Otto then Otto wouldn’t have been there to shuffle Daemon into all these other meaningless council positions.
Definitely, I mean, Viserys states that being a "tyrant" and a "man who would bankrupt the realm" was things that Daemon WOULD do, not have done or was doing. It was pretty likely that Otto was sabotaging Daemon, we don't have any evidence despite Otto`s biased opinion that he was that bad on those jobs. Viserys was completely blind and tightly manipulated by his hand.
This makes me think of all those leaders who go unnoticed because they don’t cause or less during great upheavals or changes, like things aren’t improving or event getting worse just peaceful and consistent which is better than the probably years of war or disasters that happened before or around them
Viserys biggest mistake was making Rhaenyra heir in the first place. Daemon was the best option, even tho he wasn't responsible and had done many awful things, Viserys knew that he loved his family. In the later episodes of the show Daemon is mature and detriment to have one of his own sons to sit on the throne. If Viserys had trusted him with the dream of Aegon Daemon would have understood the seriousness of the situation and his anger towards Viserys would have dissapated. He could also marry Rhaenyra and than Viserys didn't have to marry, or atleast would have more time to choose.
Aegon's prophecy was an input from GRRM to Ryan Condell, and it has been hinted that Aegon may have had this motivation when he conquered the Seven Kingdoms in the books. So I think it's fair to presume this existed in ASOIAF.
The analysis in this video is excellent, but I think I'd disagree on the point about abdication potentially angering the lords as a female heir would. IMO, a major reason that many of the lords voted against Rhaenys' queenship (apart from misogyny), was that it could potentially establish a precedent that might call their own succession into question if they had elder sisters etc. It wasn't just that they didn't like new things or 'woman bad' - it was that the precedent set by a woman ascending to the Iron Throne was potentially an active threat to their own power.
Taking two wives is actually pretty controversial in Westeros. With Aegon, no one could really say shit because he conquered the world and the grand Sept gave his blessing, and Maegor was a cruel unchecked dictator. A second wife could turn the Sept against him and that’s never good as a king
As much as I'm sympathetic for your take, Viserys failed at strenghtening Rhaenyra's claim. This whole time, he had the power to do so. Maybe if he acknowledged that Rhaenyra had bastards he could have given something to them, while legitimizing Viserys (his grandson from Daemon) as the heir to Rhaenyra. That way, the Velaryon would have been livid, but there would have been a clear line of succession.
Viserys inherited a kingdom at its peak from jaeherys the councilor, the man who ruled the longest and probably the best Saying his reign was good and peaceful so he was a good king is disangenuos because he is riding on the wind of a far superior ruler than he Viserys could have literally done nothing and the kindom would have survived but he fcked it up , he wanted to be tested and was tested ever since aegon was born
him declaring Princess Rhaenyra heiress AND remarrying were both compatible and not only sound but necessary choices. If it was the master schemers and politickers from both the current era like Otto or even the succeeding one like Tywin and Littlefinger in the king's position, they would very much do the same thing with even less hindrance. It is absolutely vital to secure by public annuoncement the current lineage in term of succession with his only heir at the time (girl or boy) as well as crucial to ensure more "backup" heirs as soon as possible given how precarious their family dynasty is in the first few episodes. what he arguably did really wrong however is not reverse this decision when Aegon was born, and in turn pass over his heirage to him over his daughter (something that Tywin would do so in a heartbeat over cercei). He chose instead to stand on his laurels and integrity of both his words and for the trust he placed on his daughter. Great, honest and family man (reminds me of eddard stark in a lot of ways). Not a great political machiavellian like Tywin or Otto though. So depends on how you define a "king" in the end.
THAT scene When he struggles his way to the throne, still send me to tears Its the first time he actually conquers the throne. And he does it for the person he loves more than anything Considine should definitely get the Emmy However the Emmys are a joke so I fear for the worst All hail king Viserys
There was nothing wrong with Rhaenyra being queen. The realm would have bickered, maybe a small rebellion or two, but all in all things would continue on. Rhaenyra ruined all of this by having Strongs kids. It fueled so much into the infighting, Otto thrived in it, Alicent and Rhaenyras children grew to hate one another over it. Rhaenyra destroyed her fathers peace.
He meant well but his actions directly lead to the dance of the dragons so he killed a ridiculous amount of people and damn near his whole bloodline unintentionally
People saying Viserys shouldn't have had more kids are forgetting the recent history of his family. Viserys succeeded his grandfather, and his own father, the previous heir, was the FOURTH born child, the third son. He would be WAY too aware of how easy it was for heirs to die, since he wouldn't have ever become king otherwise. For all he knew, Rhaenyra would inherit the same luck all of Jaehaerys' daughters got.
Yes a great king who committed to nothing sowed the seeds for a succession crisis and only made major decisions when he was bullied or manipulated into making them. Amazing king.
It's easier to place the blame on one person than for everyone in the room to take accountability for their actions, regardless of their intentions. "Everyone could do better but paradoxically are doing the best they can" is a thing I have to remind myself daily
Now if Viserys had claimed Vermithor after his grandfather's death, his position would not be so easily challenged by Daemon and Corlys since Vermithor is second only to Vhagar in size and therefore he is older and larger than Caraxes.
Tbh, him getting her pregnant again and again fully knowing how it was weakening and endangering her was certainly a horrible decision. No doubt about that. However, not sure how the actual event of the birth could have been handled better, other than the obvious of trying to give her a sedative or pain reliever like milk of the poppy. I mean, by that point, the mistakes had already been made, and all he could do was try to salvage a horrific situation. Without the benefit of hindsight, it looked like a choice between losing both of them or saving the child. Yes, if he had prophetic powers and could accurately predict that the baby would die regardless, then sure, the best choice would have been to make Aema as comfortable as possible while she and her baby died. But he had no prophetic powers. And if someone is losing their wife no matter what but is told they may be able to save their child, of course they would try to save their child. The only horribly unjust thing that happened was not trying to reduce Aema's pain, because I seriously doubt the maesters had no way to do that.
I mean, he could've asked for her input on what they should do. Or asked the Maesters if there was some way to save her at the cost of the child's life, as an inverse of what they actually suggested.
The "Obsession" with having a male heir with Aemma was related to his obsession with Aegon's dream...which was correct. He was making a decision here that could have possibly doomed the entire continent if he chose wrongly.
But also in the short sight: if he had no male heir, there would be another situation similar to Jaehaerys' succession. The first thing a king must provide is an heir who could move forward the dynasty and strenghten the security of the rule. And if he had taken another wife alongside Aemma, he'd probably caused another rebellion of the Faith, since polygamy wasn't an option (something that even Rhaegar should have known when, as many think, he intended to have both Elia and Lyanna as wives). Probably the best thing Viserys should have done on this matter was cast aside Aemma and take another wife _before conceiving Baelon_ after many miscarriages. But the couple genuinely loved each other, and how House Arryn would have react to the member of their family who became Queen being discarded? Viserys had many burdens on his shoulders.
Was there no one in the Vale or the Stormlands for Viserys to marry? Or the North? I mean, the Stark words match up with the Conqueror's Dream, and the children of such a match could result in dragons in the North, to protect the realm...
Your opening sentences about GOT (and more broadly ASOIAF) summarized my thoughts EXACTLY. And I think we're not the only ones, hence the popularity of this series. BTW - GRRM himself said he prefers the show version of Viserys!
Targaryens dont marry with their sons or doughters. They draw the line in siblings. An Laenna was the best match; targaryen blood, strengthens the bond between the two most important Valyrian families (fuck u, house Celtigar), repairs the wounds of the council of 101 avoiding that the other only house with dragons start having ideas.
@@thecountbrothers2287 book wise she was older than rhaenyra alicent was born in 88 AC being 18 at this time and laena 92 AC being fourteen and rhaenyra in 97 AC being 9
The second Rhaenys decided to turn a crowd of peasants into powder just to prove a point, I realized how much of a bullet Westeros dodged with Viserys. A deeply flawed man who recognized how dangerous their WMDs with teeth are, and tried his best to keep everyone together -- lowkey a great fictional leader.
Love the show (and your video), but the biggest failing of HOTD is that we ran through the setup for the dance of the dragons so quickly. 20 years of time can't be covered in 10 hours of TV.
I love how he mentioned that he often wondered what man would emerge had he been tested. And then you see him frail and dying yet forcing himself to march into the throne room and ascend the stairs. And you realize this was anything but a weak man
That scene said something to me about daemon as well ngl
A king who lives his whole life feeling untested is a king who has already passed every test.
He is weak, but at the same time, he is the strongest WHEN he is at his weakest. The damage has been done, the family enmity has gone beyond Alicent-Rhaenyra, and has bled into the future generations who he spent no time with, the hate between the blacks and greens is not going anywhere, he didn't do anything to repair the damage when it was NEEDED, but that moment was definitely his strongest as he defends the honor of his daughter, but at the same time, it is sad too, because we know it is nothing more than just a drowning man's attempt to grab at a straw when he knows it's not gonna save him.
He's wondering what would have happened if he was truly tested, without even realizing that through the growing hate between his family, he WAS being tested and was ignorant to it, proving that he failed the test, and the Targaryen dynasty as his long term actions (or lack therof) lead to the dying of the dragons.
@@MrBazBake That's ignoring the fact that he's the king who came after Jaehaerys I. Viserys I was largely untested because the realm was largely stable because of the hard work of his grandfather. That's like when idiots laud Trump for improving the economy, when the changes were first set in motion during Obama's time in office. Viserys rid on the coattails of his grandfather Jaehaerys.
You'd have a different opinion if he was not Paddy Considine in the show and if show Viserys was characterized instead as a lazy drunkard as in the book. The character and his motivations may be different, but he is still worthless as a king
That last throne room scene was too little too late. He could have quashed every opposition and naysayer from the moment he named Rhaenyra heir all the way to his death but he didn't. No heads rolled until Vaemond when plenty of treason have been suggested over decades. This guy is a weak king and a people pleaser. Being useful for a single time at his deathbed doesn't change the fact that 90% of his life is him being fking useless as a king and father.
His biggest mistake was not making Rhaenyra hand of the king after dismissing Otto Hightower, or at least making her Master of Coin. Keeping her in a position of power at court was super important, and he failed to do so when it was within his power
Very true .
But then he'd actually have to deal with the fact that his sons and wife hate his daughter and why do that when you can just pretend there's no problem until you die and it inevitably leads to a civil war lul.
in my opinion Viserys was a horrible father overall....he might have loved Rhaenyra but betrayed her with marrying her best friend and then killing also her mother and so on...he also had trouble with connecting with her...they hardly had any relationship , so now we have Aegon who is psychopath cause he felt unloved and uncared for and on the other hand we have Rhaenyra who just doesnt know how to rule cause she was never taught how to do that , Viserys should have kept Daemon and Rhaenyra as close as possible while also loving his other children...Aegon and Aemond clearly feel betrayed by him and thats why they turned out to be monsters
she was a kid!
And you think she could manage such a position? With zero experience???
well it had worked for him, couldnt be that it would be necessary for her to have a strong positiion
My heart broke for him when, as a dying old man at his last family dinner, he begs them for his sake to put their quarrels aside. He was a broken, lonely man that just wanted to love his family and live a peaceful life. The iron throne took everything from him.
That scene still makes me choke up, the first time I watched it, I was bawling like a baby
Fuk that.
I only felt pity in knowing how utterly he screwed his family, tbh
@@stephenjenkins7971 Well if he was harsher there would be no show, cause they'd all be dead or in jail.
Yet, Rhaenyra's sons agitated Aemond (Twice) with a pig after Viserys left, knowing they've blinded him for life; leaving such a scar to be shown to all.
Daemon molesting Rhaenyra and taking her chasity because of his anger towards his brother is something else. Yet, I know it's based on fiction, that's based on real events within royal families from the past.
It's still sickening.
People who say “why didn’t he stop having kids, since he had a child already?” Are thinking too much in modern and normal standards. We very clearly see in the show and in history that strength in numbers is important, since one successor could just as well die or get killed, and then what? Hell, it wasn’t even a certainty that your child would live to see 5 back then.
Imagine if Rhaenyra had died before Viserys and now it was Daemon as presumed heir - random distant Targaryen cousins would have been coming out of the woodwork to try their luck at the throne, descendants of ruling houses from before the conquest, a free for all! That would likely have been just as bad.
They might as well do that, since they have the modern mentality of oversexualized assholes
Notably Viserys *himself* became king because of this exact issue. His grandparents King Jaehaerys I. and Queen Alysanne had thirteen children, and yet he had to call a council to decide on an heir because all his sons predeceased him. Visery's first wife Aemma also went through multiple pregnancies, and all children except Rhaenyra either were stillborn or died shortly after their birth. Rhaenyra being a woman makes this even riskier, because as heir to the throne she is required to have children, and childbirth was notoriously dangerous. There was a good chance that she could die young due to pregnancy complications, and that the child produced may not live either.
There is a real life precedent on why relying on a single female heir can backfire: Princess Charlotte of Wales, only child of King George IV of England and heir presumptive to the English crown after him, died after giving birth to a stillborn son at only 21 years of age, leaving her unmarried uncles to scramble to produce a new heir - thats how the English got Queen Victoria!
Having TOO many successors results in a succession war, having not enough successors means your dynasty might not live to see the next generation. It’s a hard line to walk.
@@danb9460 I’m not saying to have 20 successors, but don’t rely on one or two either.
I think the main reason no Targaryen kings after Maegor took more than one wife is because it was a compromise struck between the crown and the faith in Jaeherys time. Kind of like "You can marry siblings but you can only have one spouse". Pretty sure if he did take a second wife there would have been a possible second uprising of the faith and pious houses. I mean if you look at Maegor's time a faith militant uprising has the potential to beggar the realm and plunge it into years of civil war.
Yes
Yeah this and also him saying Viserys should marry his daughter, two giant no-no's with the faith. The show doesn't begin to demonstrate the tension between the starry sept and the iron throne. Viserys was only lifetime removed from a civil war with the poor fellows and warriors sons
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Also even for the Dragonlords, a parent-child relationship is never mentioned as a viable option, only sibling-sibling or avuncular (child to the sibling of a parent, Daenerys with Jon, Rhaenerya with Daemon, et cetra). The only Targaryen known to have *potentially* slept with a child is Aegon IV, and he was considered just a flat out monstrous degenerate.
And ironically enough, a civil war is what happened later anyway.
The thing is Daemon was more than capable enough taking care of such things.
This video asks the question "What did King Viserys actually do?" and the answer is "His best".
Damn, that's true😂😂
And honestly, it's easy to pick apart what he did now as observers, but that job he had was insane...
All while battling a painful crippling disease, a headstrong AF brother, and a headstrong AF daughter.
no he didn't, that's literally why the Dance of Dragons happens, because he is a bad king that didn't deal with the issue of succession before his death, his inaction lead to the near complete destruction of his family and the fall of their rule
@@Dell-ol6hbwhat inaction? You can disagree with his choices but what inaction. To me the proper feud between rhaenyra and alicent did not really boil until sometime during the 10 time skip where viserys is deteriorating significantly.
Princess Rhaenyra repeatedly crossed that line between precocious and spoiled.
One solution that could have averted much strife would have been to place Rhaenyra as a ward with another house.
What lordly house could discipline a princess when she would outrank any Lord or Lady as a princess?
Perhaps a house with a princess already married into it as the wife of its lord, such as House Velaryon's Princess Rhaenys.
It would have also bound House Velaryon to King Viserys by showing the trust he has in letting them raise his daughter and presumed heir.
Think the issue is that Otto would of done his damn best to whisper into viserys ears about how thats a bad idea and how Rhaenyra will have an accident while there.
Or perhaps, Viserys could've listened to the one advisor who wasn't being a sycophant or power hungry, Lionel Strong, and swallow his pride to marry Laena Velaryon. Sure, it would've been uncomfortable, but no one would've objected or protested outright. That way you don't marry your daughter's childhood friend, undermining all trust and confidence in both those relationships for years. That moment in episode 2, where he announced his marriage to Alicent, on top of not recognizing Rhaenyra's potential and initiative as a leader and problem solver when she recovered the egg from Daemon, sealed their fate as Rhaenyra would begin to act more on impulse and resentment as the years went on, squandering the budding potential she had when she was younger.
Also, why would the Velaryons accept a wardship when they were denied a marriage in the beginning? Lord Corlys left with Daemon to the Stepstones in the first place, because turning down the marriage proposal with Laena was the last straw on top of Viserys not acting against the Triarchy.
@@nate742 YES! Lyonel was a truly loyal servant dedicated to serving the Iron Throne and protecting the realm. Lyonel won my girlfriend over with his impartial counsel and his son Harwin did so in just a few scenes (Harwin Smash and Harwin/Laenor working together to be good dads). When they left for Harrenhal, she was like, "Oh, Rhaenyra's gonna try and get to Harrenhal for her baby-daddy, right?" and I had to bite my tongue and not remind her his was a Game of Thrones prequel.
She should of been sent to the Starks 😂
The best way to prevent this is the biggest sacrifice that anyone would think. Viserys had to abdicate the throne in favor of his daughter at the moment when his health began to fail. Stop being the King to dedicate all his time to what really moved him, being a good father.
But on how to run the House of the Dragon, his main mistake in fact, is one that Ned Stark in the original saga did understand. "Cohesiveness" and objective. He has many children, but even so, he lacked goals or ideals for them, beyond being "sons of the dragon". As an example, Ned Stark always mentions how each of his children has a role in the family. Robb is the heir, Bran would be a steward with a Tower or stronghold in the North, Arya and Sansa would strengthen Robb's position and, even Jon, was saw as a future champion for his brother. Here Viserys let his sons have a lot of free time.
Me being Viserys in his position. The moment Rhaenyra began to have heirs, I make her the king's hand (I would abdicate when she fell ill), and I would manage my children better. Since he was little, I would have pushed myself to make Aegon a warrior, a knight, perhaps send him to a loyal house as a ward so that he develops that devotion to honor (Stark or Arryn would have worked). Aemond as the second male, would have educated him, he is intelligent, somewhat proud, but a good education would have helped him maintain a good position on the council. But yes, I would have married them to medium or small houses. Celtigars, Umbers, Waynwood, it doesn't matter. A small house to reduce the temptation to rebellion.
In this way, I would be alive for the first years of Rhaenyra's reign, I would see my children with a bright future and they would not be idle in the capital. I would even encourage Aegon, if he is born with ambition, to conquer Pentos or whatever xD
Viserys' biggest mistake was not keeping Rhaenyra close. He never prepped her for the throne at all. She was never given seat on the council and by extension never taught to rule the realm, was never taught to foster bonds with the lords who swore her fealty, never taught her how to improve her standing with the small folk, and never taught her how to act in a royal manner. Hill's Alive did an excellent video on Rhaenyra's shortcomings being at the forefront when she was looking for suitors. While overall, I agree with your argument that he wasn't the terrible king history knew him as, this fault makes him a bad king and father/man.
THIS.
We do see the youngest generation of Targaryens receiving lessons on things from combat to politics. Children of a royal family were not just left to their own devices to stand around and look pretty. They are well educated, and prepared for their possible position, in case something happens. Rhaenyra had to have been educated like any royal family member would be when she was younger, even if she didn't have things like a council seat (it could have been in the period before the series, or in the many years between some episodes). The show more indicates that she was rebellious about her lessons, that she knew her duties and necessary sacrifices, but resented them. Despite being told repeatedly to make a good impression with the suitors, Rhaenyra makes the choice to not do so, and possibly sows more discourse as a result.
A father can teach, but it is up to the children when/if the lesson takes root.
That's COMPLETELY WRONG entirely that any of that makes him a "bad king" at all from THAT single shortcoming at all as the video said and proves he was a GOOD king from not having any war and keeping Damond in check as a brother while fighting off a disease that was eating away at his body. Viserys WAS a good king despite all the things he had to deal with and Rhaenyra not acting in a "Royal manner" was ALL on HER for not doing so as she was SENT to meet with suitors but she didn't care for any of them. Rhaenyra needs to take responsibilities of her own actions, not have her father do everything for her. Which you're not getting here.
@@Gadget-Walkmen
Had Viserys only married Rhaenyra to Daemon sooner this wouldn't have happened. Viserys really doesn't care all that much about what her daughter felt at that time. Clearly those suitors were no match for her. The one she had eyes for, Viserys didn't make him an option because he didn't annull his brother's marriage. He married his brother to the heir to Vale coz of Otto's advice, a woman he doesn't like and rumoured to be barren.
Otto kept sabotaging Daemon which caused the rift between the two brothers and then he went on to sabotage Rhaenyra. Yet Viserys still kept listening to that snake. He tried being good to all but essentially failed at it miserably, because he really didn't care to understand them.
@@happilyevernever4289 Lol Just no, he didn’t marry Rhaenyra to Daemon because it’s sick and disgusting to being marrying uncle and niece like that. It’s bafffingly sad how you people don’t see the problematic incest with these characters and don’t see how it’s not instantly a problem. Viserys DID care about his daughter thoughts and feelings entirely so, but he was NOT putting her anywhere near Daemon because Daemon is a vicious terrible mess of a person who loves to start trouble JUST for the sake of it, daemon is not suitable for literally anyone for his psychotic nature. No sane person would EVER trust Daemond with anyone. He’s like a likable psychopath but he’s still a violent trouble making psychopath, that should be obvious.
Daemon sabotaged himself because he didn’t know how to be reasonable in the slightest Or responsible, daemond gave Viserys EVERY good reason to not trust his own brother as his own brother can’t handle the most simplest tasks without screwing it up as it’s been stated and SHOWN. It’s just sad that you’re show how trying to blame Viserys for ANY of this as Viserys is the only few people who actually care about doing the right and responsible thing.
Viserys listened to Otto because not matter how leecherous Otto ultimately was, he still acted reasonably AND appropriately to every given situation on HOW to act and behave. Unlike Rhaenyra and Daemond who are an absolute mess of two people who don’t know what responsibilities are, they just want absolute freedom at the cost of doing everything else which can AND has proven to be destructive.
Viserys understood them perfectly, he understood how terrible people his own brother and how immature his own daughter really were as they NEVER grew up. That should be obvious here, seriously. Viserys didn’t “fAiLed” at all, his family failed him despite all the good that he’s been doing for them.
Well though he made some questionable decision, he did try, unlike Bobby B. He even tried to be a good father, making her daughter happy. When he told Otto he didn't wish to command Rhaenyra; he wanted her to be happy, Otto's expression was like "why in the seven hells would you give a shit about that???"
He was a horrible father. He neglected his 4 other kids. He didn't even care when Aemond lost his eye. He spoilt Rhaenyra
@@theelectricprince8231 none of them were supposed to be heir. Besides, Alicent ended up raising a bunch of little sociopaths, what was Viserys supposed to do, shame Aegon even more for being a depraved little shit? Maybe tell Aemond that he shouldn’t want to kill his nephew for taking his eye? Yeah, I’m sure that would work. Aemond probably could’ve been kept from turning our horrible, he at least has some good things going for him, but Aegon was beyond saving, with nothing to apply any positive reinforcement to.
@@Slender_Man_186 Maybe they could have used a father. He was a bad one. Rhaenyra was spoiled and the rest were ignored.
@@Slender_Man_186 You are insane. The whole reason why they were so messed up is because of Viserys. He proved that he either hated them or didn't care about them. He didn't even discipline Lucy when he cut out Aemond's eye or even speak out against Rhaenyra saying torture Aemond for speaking out the obvious fact that everyone there knows is true. The only reason Aegon was how he was, was because he was crying out to get his father's attention. This is all 100% on Viserys.
@@Slender_Man_186
Alicent was a young teen when she had Aegon 2, and Viserys was a terrible father to his kids with Alicent.
Aegon 2 needed a father figure, didn't have one. Aemond was better off since Alicent had him as a 3rd kid and was more mature. Helaena.. well, she's "simple-minded" so that's nothing any parent can really change. (And Daeron in the books is supposedly a chill kid but, he's not in the show so)
And so what if they're not all the heirs? That means he can just not give a crap about the rest of his kids? Why'd he bother have them at all honestly, he pampers his adult daughter more than his little kids.
Aemond lost his eye and he basically didn't care about it. Aegon 2 knew his father didn't care for him, as did Aemond.
How you can support Viserys as a father whatsoever, he enables Rhaenyra in her bad decisions as well.
If Viserys had no choice but to maintain Rhaenyra as heir and any future children only as spares, he should not have married the daughter of one of the most ambitious men in Westeros. Daemon is a wildcard but Viserys should've realised Otto's intentions long before his health started deteriorated. Atleast, he should've strongly supported the alliance between Rhaenyra and Alicent's children to avoid any potential in-fighting.
If abdicating would be breaking a precedent, then so was declaring a woman an heir and keeping her the heir even after producing male children. Btw, if we are talking about precedents, we should remember that Targaryen rule is still just a 100 years old and had arguably had only two competent (or at least well-loved) rulers (Aegon and Jahaerys I). The peace during Viserys's reign should partly be attributed to Jahaerys and Alyssane as well as to Otto, and later to Alicent even (according to the show, she seems to be in control towards the end). While the Hightowers are ambitious and seek to delegitimize Rhaenyra, they are still competent enough to ensure that the realm doesn't fall into chaos when the King is bed-ridden.
Otto wasn't the problem. Every lord in Otto's situation would've done the same exact thing, and the war would've still happened as long as Viserys was dumb and still tried to keep Rhaenyra as his heir for no other reason then he felt guilty. Also he knew that Otto was planning to get him to marry Alicent, and he did it anyway, he knew what was going on.
@@AaronGuest
True. Otto wasn't some villain from the start. If anything, he took matters into his own hands since his King was a fool.
@@thalmoragent9344 Fact
Yup it doesn't matter if her children were true born. Any ambitious lord would've tried to make their blood king. Viserys truly didn't believe that Otta was ambitious.
The only way to have blocked ppl like Otto was to make Daemon hand of the king. To protect and ensure Rhaenyras ascension to queen.
I often see Viserys compared with Ned Stark in terms of role and I think it's an interesting thing to contemplate. Ned was a genuinely good *person*, a solid leader, but a rather incompetent player of the Game of Thrones itself. Viserys is a decent guy too, though not as ferociously moral as Ned, he's neither covetous nor cruel. His biggest fault is honestly being a fairly average man of his society, rather than a hero or genius. He did his best with the gifts he had. Great character, and I really enjoyed this analysis of him.
Viserys had a soft-heart, I think that was both his greatest strength and sadly his biggest weakness.
Decent men don't butcher their wives
I get what you're saying, he's overall pleasant, has a moral code, earlier in his reign he has a pretty healthy outlook on how to handle dissent, a genuine care for his family, a lot of positive qualities
But he crossed a line with Aemma that decency would never allow.
As much as I can and do criticise Ned Stark too, there is no force in the seven kingdoms that could compell Ned Stark to hold down his
fighting, unmedicated wife to be crudely butchered. Viserys is a complex man with many good qualities, but not a decent man in my estimation
Maybe instead of abdicating, he could have made Rhaenyra his Hand... She could have kept the small council conspiracy from happening.
I would not absolve Viserys of responsibility in planting the seeds of the Dance. Like it or not, his choices made an impact and the fact that he did not withdraw his claim in favor of his cousin before all of this is one of the reasons why the dance started. I will agree with you largely that he is a much better King than people will give him credit for based on the books. But you giving him a complete pass on his failures and how they led to the dance is a bit much.
You’re kind. Viserys DIRECTLY caused the Dance
@@Dakotastx Nahhh, Thats fucking Daemon, Rhaeynra and Otto's fault. An arrogant uncaring brother, A spoiled bitchy Daughter and a Scheming fuck.
I disagree the succession problem and the dance of the dragon seeds was planted since jaehearis great council and then viserys stop it from happening from another 37 years.
8:38 describing deamons actions as head of the city watch. perfect opportunity to define them as "draconian." extreme was used instead. absolutely fumbled
A second wife would not work. Aegon's polygamy was tolerated because he'd just conquered the realm. But it still lead to a succession crisis with Maegor usurping Aenys. Viserys having a son to a second wife would not bring stability to the realm.
I don't recall the details but I'm sure when the Crown and Faith came to a compromise to stop the fighting, it was either incest that had to go or polygamy and the Targs chose to keep incest.
As for Viserys marrying Rhaenyra, there's zero evidence of any Targs marrying their children. It's always been brother to sister, neice/nephew to aunt/uncle. It's difficult enough for GRRM to get his audience on board with incest, making the incest father/daughter mother/son is a boundary too far.
The point that viserys thinks he doesn’t have time to wait around to make a new heir falls a little short to me. If that was the case then he would’ve been looking for a new marriage as soon as he lost emma, but when corlys brings this up he admits he hangs even thought about marrying again, he definitely is not in a rush to make more heirs
viserys had a good rule, BUT he failed to make long term plans to maintain peace after his death. A good historical analogy is the emperorHadrian If you judge him by how the empire prospered under his rule, he was great. If you judge him by how things immediately went to shit when the long term problems her created came back to haunt the empire after his death, then he was not good at all.
Viserys was kind, but short-sighted.
Hadrian created long term problems? That doesn't vibe with my understanding of Roman history, I'd peg him as being one of the more forward thinking emperors. Throughout the empire it's rare to see someone consider the state after they are gone beyond "my son(s) will rule". Augustus did it, Diocletian attempted it (with little success), and Hadrian in choosing both the immediate successor but also their successor in turn did it, and that second successor was Marcus Aurelius, who would turn out to be a good choice for handling the beginning of the downward slope for Rome. I'm not sure what cans Hadrian consciously kicked down the road.
@@RmsOceanic Excellent points, it is a classic debate amongst historians, but the way I heard it, there is a faction that insists that when Hadrain pulled out of the territories that Trajan conquered, it seemed like a good idea for about a generation, because those territories were expensive to maintain. But not long after Hadrian died, it became clear those territories had also served as a buffer against invasions, and the wars and difficulties that plague the reign of Marcus Aurelius were arguably the result of Hadrian giving up those buffer areas.
It makes sense to me. But I 100% agree that Hadrian choosing not one, but two successors, both of whom also to great rulers was an incredible move. Hadrian might be my pick for the single best emperor actually. But being best is not the same as being perfect, he made mistakes and the pull out was probably one of them.
@@RmsOceanic Also, for the record, the reason Hadrian was able to move beyond "my son will rule" is because he was gay. That's not even speculation, Hadrian had a marriage ceremony and everything with a young man. It was considered very strange at the time, even people in the ancient world who engaged in homosexual sex did not really have marriage ceremonies. Hadrian is arguable the first person we know of to be "gay" in the modern sense. So he had no sons to pass power on too because he had no woman in his life capable of giving him sons. That's why he was in a position to put more thought into who his heirs would be. And he ended up picking 2 amazingly good choices who are still remembered as great almost 2000 years later. But just in case you didn't know: Hadrian was openly gay and had no children that we know of.
Definitely one of the most emotional and compelling characters/performance in either of the shows, and he definitely has fierce competition in that regard. Expertly written, and the fact that George RR Martin said so himself gives me a lot of trust in the direction of the show.
I gotta say I didn't have high hopes for this show, but Viserys alone has totally sold me on looking forward to more seasons.
Well, the fact he's played by Patty Considine helps. That guy was an excellent protagonist in the 3rd season of Peaky Blinders and he's been on my radar ever since.
About the second wife thing, that would've destroyed any goodwill the throne had with the faith - the faith is monogomous, basically everyone in Westeros folows it, and when maegor took multiple wives it cause reign-long rebellions, and maybe got him killed
(But I agree with everything else tho, I hope I don't come across as dickish, sorry if I do)
maegor is a perfect example of this. the followers of the seven have a larger following than anyone would think, which makes sense since it's based off middle-age christianity. maegor would have most likely been pushed out or killed either way, but the rebellion against him was pushed harder by the faith than anyone else.
That's a good point. I'm not sure it's fair to say he chose to murder his wife. His wife and child were either both going to die or one of them had an opportunity to live. I agree he definitely should've let her make the decision. But there was no option where his wive lives (at least according to the maester).
I believe he continually got bad advice from the maesters due the Otto and the Hightowers scheming. He was the victim of medical malpractice in my opinion.
I don't know if the suggestion to marry with Rhaenyra was the best one too (or even a good one at all). Despite the fact that with Jaehaerys, the marriage between siblings were more accepted in Westeros, there is no precedent that we know of with the marriage of a father and a daughter. I think that also would generate a war with the faith and make the realm bleed too
Disagree. Meagre just was cruel ultimately and stoked too much fire with no willingness for diplomacy
Jaherys literally made the Targyrean exceptionalism concept to legitimise their incest marriages in the eyes of the common man.
@@niccoloparker3548 incest is more more easy for the faith to rationalize since cousin marriage already exists in Westeros, but the faith very clearly draws the line for what they allow the Targaryens to get away with at point of polygamy, hence why no king from Jahaerys onward has no more than one wife at a time
In the show Rhaenyra values the song of ice and fire and she even considers letting Aegon be king in the finale. She even questioned if she should be heir to Viserys in ep. 8.
Why do you assume she would start a dance of dragons if she was disinherited? Nothing in the show suggests she would risk the kingdom over bitterness
Well, many of her supporters, particularly Daemon, all would've pushed her to fight, like how most of Alicent's Council also pushed to take action sooner than later
Viserys was an inept King and let the 2 Factions grow apart and fester till he died.
Even if she didn't, the likes of Daemon 100% would start a war to obtain power. And we all know that she can't control him.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Daemon on his own really isn't much of a threat though. He'd still have the Hightowers and the Greens, with the absence of Rhaenyra and her Dragons, the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North. Daemon couldn't even take out Vaghar without dying in the process. His war would have probably been just a prolonged siege on Dragonstone.
@@amelancholybear1534 Kinda missing the point.
Edit: Plus the point isn't to cause damage; it's to kill off the Greens. Maybe to do so in a wedding or something. Assassination or straight up murder is on the table.
@@thalmoragent9344 outside of Daemon, how many of Rhaenyra's supporters do you imagine would push her to fight if she wasn't the rightful heir? I'd also like to point out that she stood up to Daemon and/or challenged his ideas multiple times this season, even as a child
I mean it does help that HotD made Viserys into a *far* more compelling character than book Viserys. HotD Viserys is just such a better, more tragic character compared to Book Viserys just being "Fat Aenys", or "Jovial, Peaceful Robert". Also I know it's a little shallow but I love his "Baldwin IV"-style mask.
About your point that Viserys should have taken a second wife alongside Aemma... the Doctrine of Exeptionalism that Jahaerys I Targaryen worked out with the Faith of the Seven only allowed incestuous marriages, and not polygamy. Him taking a second wife would have annoyed the Faith again, and while the Faith Militant was already disbanded, Viserys probably did not want to take the risk and start another uprising when the last one was the biggest threat to the rule of the Targaryens since the Conquest. Otto would also have stopped him if he tried given that the Hightowers have traditionally been supportive of the Faith.
Your videos are always so on point that now when I click in, I automatically hit the like button just so I don't forget because I'm already completely confident in the quality of content you provide. You never disappoint. Thanks for so many great videos.
I've done this too! Even when I disagree, it's the kind of disagreement where I thought more deeply and learned something interesting about my own point of view, so I still feel like it deserves a like.
For me, one of Viserys' biggest fails as king was not calling Rhaenyra to King's Landing to take over as regent when his health was keeping him from most of his duties.
A concept not explored is Coregency (Joint Rule), something England, France, Spain, Russia the Scandinavian countries e.g. all have practice at some point. He could have named her his Co-Queen and have her rule when he wasn't around. Then slowly giving her more and more responsibilities. First make her the de facto ruler of first Kingslanding, expand it to all domestic affairs of Westeros (once she have proven herself), and give her complete rule once he was to sick to do it himself.
Paddy has made fall in love with viserys’s character. I hope he gets a few awards
I can see why Viserys I is compared to Bobby B as a King. They do share similarities (conflict avoiders to the detriment of rising tensions in court; big on tourneys, royal hunts, food, drink, and other royal indulgences; never expected to be kings; definitely understand women and are fantastic husbands 🤨🤨, etc.) but it bothers me a bit bc at least Viserys TRIES. He dutifully attends each council meeting, he embraces his responsibilities and tries to react accordingly- even if it’s not always the best response, and he asserts his authority when he needs to (like sending Daemon away twice, unlike when Bobby B just refuses to step into conflict he doesn’t care about- which gets Lady the Direwolf killed). Alicent was right when she said that he’d have had a happier, longer life if he’d remained a lord at Court, but he never begrudged his lot in life like Robert did, but tried to do the best he could for the realm. I’m not a massive fan of the guy but I love the nuance HOTD imbued him with :,) he’s a very human king
I would not Robert as being a conflict avoider lmao, he’s kinda like the opposite of Viserys in that regard, he doesn’t care that much about keeping as many people happy as possible he’s sorta indifferent mostly and he’s certainly not the type to be afraid to exercise his authority unlike Viserys.
@@Dell-ol6hb not conflict avoidant in terms of placation, more in the sense that he himself avoids conflict 💀 his admitting to Ned that he dreams of abandoning it all and running east in pursuit of glory says it all, he wasn’t built for leadership and disregards all pretext of command whenever he can
LOL what? I know you saying "definitely understand women and are fantastic husbands" is sarcasm but except for what he did to his first wife at her final birthing scene which was sick to see but understandable given the situation of the era, Viserys DOES understand women and IS a fantastic husband as he's treated his first wife Emma VERY well and kinda.
Robert Baratheon most certainly DOES NOT understand women and only cares to have sex with them and treats them like any other guy and he was a BAD husband unfortunately based on how he treated cersei. The same can NOT be said about Viserys because he ACTUALLY understood women and tried his wife VERY well like any good husband should, except for her final birth scene which as I said, was sick and twisted.
@@Gadget-Walkmen he married his first wife Aemma Arryn when she was eleven (in 93AC) and promptly forced as many children on her as possible in pursuit of a male heir- she is said to have suffered many miscarriages and cradle deaths because of how young she was. Finally he butchers her without even informing her first because he very obviously valued a potential son over her physical and emotional wellbeing. He married a fifteen year old Alicent Hightower next and impregnated her 3/4 times despite her being the same age as his daughter, and despite her very clearly not wanting him. Obviously it’s a different world and time period and men were not beholden to the same standards as they are today, but for a franchise which has a primary focus on gender inequality and the brutal silencing of women, he is not nor was he ever a “fantastic husband”. He loved his first wife, but he very clearly utilized her life and death for his own ends. I would go so far as to say that NO men in Westeros truly understand the perspective of the women in their lives, they are just so fundamentally removed
@@Sophie-vq1xw Most of what you said here are completely narrow minded views in perspective of what the series and the people are about in the series AND in real life, seemingly because of sensitivity of the subject.
"he married his first wife Aemma Arryn when she was eleven (in 93AC) and promptly forced as many children on her as possible in pursuit of a male heir- she is said to have suffered many miscarriages and cradle deaths because of how young she was."
We have NO idea on how old she was when they got married. What happened in the books is NOT what happened in the show as the video explains they are written differently and the characters are vastly much more aged up in the show compared to the books.
Yes. the women in this era are treated like cattle but that's the whole point of SHOWING how the inequality of such a medieval era that women were ultimately used to produce more babies, even WHEN they're in the highest position in the world as Queen.
"Finally he butchers her without even informing her first because he very obviously valued a potential son over her physical and emotional wellbeing."
Someone else already said this perfectly in the comment section so I'm just going to quote him here, "I just don't understand why people act like Viserys killed his wife. They state in plain Jane English that she's dead either way, but the only way to possibly save the baby is through an emergency C-Section. So the choice was either give Aemma a slow, painful death that will guarantee both the baby dies with his wife, or a quicker, painful death that has a chance to save the baby. There is literally no logical reason to choose the first option. The next argument is always "well he should have told her first" and I guess? But she's inebriated to hell and back on basically heroine (milk of the poppy) so by any standard of consent, she can't give it. Telling her what's about to happen is a surefire way to get her to start panicking before she can be properly restrained, further risking the procedure and therefore the baby. And some kind of decision needs to be made as soon as possible to minimize risk.
In the cold brutal calculus of the scene, Viserys made literally the only choice that might have salvaged anything from the situation, and I can't help but feel people's empathy for Aemma gets in the way of that reality. She was dead. There was no hope for her. He did not sentence her to death because she was already dead. If the procedure wasn't shown in such gruesome, gut wrenching detail, I feel like more people would be sympathetic to his choice. It's an effective scene in that regard but people come to the wrong conclusions over it."
Yes it was BRUTAL thing to do in that era regradless but it was the only thing TO DO to get anything out of it.
"He married a fifteen year old Alicent Hightower next and impregnated her 3/4 times despite her being the same age as his daughter, and despite her very clearly not wanting him."
He married her because he HAD to marry someone and she presenting herself as a suitor. That's something of a VERY common norm.
We have no idea if he "forced her" to have sex with him at all. You say "despite her very clearly not wanting him" because we the audience SAW her face as she was upset with the situation but that was it.
As far as we can tell, She owned up to the situation and had kids because she was
She reluctantly had sex with him obviously as we saw but Viserys didn't see or know that as we saw.
You're taking that out of context.
Viserys having sex with his wives to produce more children is expected out of him and EVERYONE of that time and era.
He's not doing anything that he's doing out of selfish purposes. He's doing these things out of obligation to the crown he serves which ALL men and women are expected to do.
"Obviously it’s a different world and time period and men were not beholden to the same standards as they are today"
You say this but there are several times you show that you don't understand this at all based on what you're saying as it seems you're just taking offense of the situation REGRADLESS of the era.
All you're doing is projecting 21th century morals to a medieval time period where kids were made to wed each other as soon as they were 12 to 13 years old and seen as adults and even go off to war even at that same age.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense as Alicent was of age to have kids at teenage (We don't know how old she was nor was it said she was 15 in the show at all) because she was seen as a women during that time.
Even a century ago teenagers were considered adults, times change perspective ALL the time. You're not seeing the big picture of this at all.
"He loved his first wife, but he very clearly utilized her life and death for his own ends."
That's not true at all as he didn't "utilized her life and death for his own ends" as he was had to make use of what he had based on what was expected of him.
Yes, it was a sick and twisted thing to do, but he didn't have much of any other choice because she was already dead.
He WAS a good enough fantastic husband based on what on the time of the era (before the accident as far as we can tell on how Aemma and Viserys cared for each other) as he AND his wife were expected to have children and especially sons as it was their duty to do so, not out of some callous ambition.
He's not forcing his wife to have kids because he's trying to be cruel, he's doing so because it's expected out of HIM and every other men in that era TO produce more heirs.
That's JUST the way how the world works and Viserys is doing the best he could given the situation. Even Aegon was forced to be king despite him not wanting to be so as everyone had their roles to play.
Everyone has aa role to play in order to keep things going during a medieval era Simple as that but you're not getting this and you're saying REALLY nonsensical statements here about the men in westeros here.
I would go so far as to say that NO men in Westeros truly understand the perspective of the women in their lives, they are just so fundamentally removed
That's so wrong as it's unbelievable for you to even say as there are men who are most certainly NOT "fundamentally removed" at all.
You say that "no men" in westeros doesn't understand the "perspective of the women in their lives" is just plain wrong as there's been several men who DO understand the position of women as to NOT abuse or forceful against any of them like Ned Stark, Rob Stark, Jon Snow, Samwise Tarly, and even Tyrion Lannister.
You're JUST being over sensitive about the subject and badly upset over past era stuff that was JUST done for it's time. JUST like in real life because for you to say that "no men in westeros doesn't understand the perspective of women" is just plain nonsensical to say and just wrong. Seriously, WHAT is that you're even saying right now because that's so obviously wrong it's painful to see someone even say.
I think Viserys is the best onscreen king of the entire franchise. The books barely describe him, and as you stated what we know from the literature are highlights of the negative things from his reign.
they are two diffrent chars to be honest
Thats not really difficult when the others are Robert, joff, tommen & cercei
He literally caused a civil war that killed 90% of his family
Watching Viserys climb the stairs to the throne was only time any film (series or otherwise) has brought me to happy tears
He was a fool. He knew his daughter was performing adultery and bore bastards but he chose to protect her honor without ANY punishment. He should've stripped her status as crown princess and named Aegon instead. This would stop the quarrel and maintain order in court.
Someone said perfectly "He is actually a great administrator and ruler, but a poor family mediator, which, in a feudal system; sadly effects the former"
I think him bringing his second batch of kids together with Rhaenyra was almost impossible TBH, at least how it's shown on the show. I'd wager like you mentioned the thing that kept him away from Alicents kids was simply his sickness and nothing really else. It would be hard to believe that a man like that with so much joy would dismiss those children, and he seemed to love watching them spar when they were between 8-14 in the courtyard. It likely wasn't shown why he grew disinterested in Alicent's children, but up until that age I doubt very much that's the case.
It's pretty clear to me that the divide came from Otto and Otto alone, with Alicent passing on that paranoia to her very own children from a young age. The last episode of the season had Rhaenyra being queen much like her fatherwas king, in that peace was the best answer... until she had probably one of the worst 48 hours of her life. Otto told Alicent in the earlier parts of the season that she would come after her children and I just don't see that happening based on how Rhaenyra acted initially towards anyone. The fear was struck into Alicent when her kids were young and it's fairly obvious she put the same fear into them that her father put into her years prior.
To me there's just no chance that Rhaenrya, Aegon, Aemond and Haelena would ever truly get along. Viserys could never give the same attention to his second batch of kids due to an aliment and Alicent had been raising her children with a clear intention of dividing them from Rhaenyra's children. Jace and Luke seemed to get along quite well with Aegon initially in a couple scenes, whether it be pranked Aemond or the initial scene where they were fighting in the court yard. Only when prodded by Criston Cole were Alicents kids, especially Aegon reminded about their 'loyalties', which brought Harwin into the picture as well. This is all unbeknownst to Viserys and not really his fault, it's clear Alicents children were always pushed towards "us vs them" from a young age.
His health was critical when his kids by Alicent were 18 or more. On the first time jump, with the kids being adolescents he was sane despite he lacking in mobility. I honestly don’t feel like they were not close just because of his sickness. He didn’t make a connection with his children, the scene after Aemond loses his eye shows some that, he only defends the princess even with his other kid severely injured. Aegon was a drunk and Halaena had antisocial behavior. Viserys didn’t seem to care much for them, only for Rhaenyra
@@danielhenrique4466 when Aemond lost his eye Viserys was put into an impossible situation really. Yes he obviously cares about Rhaenyra more (parents IRL do show favorites too), but he's being asked to go along with maiming one of his grandsons because it's fair. No grandfather, let alone King would allow that to happen.
Children fight and children do maim each other accidently. Even though in this case it wasn't really an accident.
The first big time jump showed him watching them in the courtyard and visibly in bad shape. That's just a glimpse or a moment, but it clearly shows that he cares about both his grandsons and his sons.
Keep in mind this is also the portion of the show where the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children is flaunted around far more openly, by both Alicent, Criston Cole (in the courtyard) and Viserys/Alicents children as we later found out. It was probably at that moment that Viserys figured out what was truly happening and his only real recourse was to stand behind his daughter.
He couldn't execute Alicent or punish her, after Alicent lunged towards Rhaenyra. He wasn't going to punish his own sons, let alone his grand children. His only recourse was to stand firm by Rhaenyra being his heir because doing anything else would've sown even more chaos, even though he knew the kids weren't legitimate. It's very true that he favorites Rhaenyra, but it's also fairly likely that the way Alicent raised her kids (regardless of how present Viserys was) was always going to push them into the direction that they already were. Paranoid, uncaring, or weird in the case of the daughter.
Rhaenyra is no angel and she was raised by Viserys in his prime. Very few Targaryen's regardless of whether they have a healthy or unhealthy relationship with their parents turn out well. Viserys is an exception, not the rule.
Luke and Jace both turned out far better than any of Alicents kids did, and it probably has far more to do with the mother raising them than the father (which is pretty common in history anyway).
The snippets do show he was happy that Rhaes kids were getting along with Alicents, following Aegon in his tessing of Aemond notwithstanding.
Heck Helaena is even shown to be comfortable around Jace, something she’s only shown with Aemond. Not even liking Alicent touching her.
B.S. he wasn't always sick, he hated them, even the actors said that Viserys hated them. Viserys was a shid king and a horrible father.
@@AaronGuest Typical Eggmond supporter. Why support eye-patch Legolas when instead you can support goofy dementia zombie.
14:11 Don't forget targs don't marry twice anymore because of the faith's uprising that happened because Maegor had two wives, after him there isn't a king that had two wives at the same time
He failed at every turn. Failed to control his brother, faild to control his wife ,failed to raise any of his children properly ,failed to pick good advisors ,failed to make good political decisions, failed to fix his mistakes. There is not one person in his life he didn't fail in some crucial way.
The homie coming through, yet again, as ever, with the most essential knowledge on how to make sense of story, in the diagesis of the story itself.
Thank you, sir.
A second wife while he was married to Aemma would've just brought unfavorable comparisons to Maegor, i think. I doubt anyone would've taken well to Viserys doing anything remotely like Jaehaerys' hated predecessor, it would've been such a bad move that would've alienated a lot of people left over from the old king's reign
Your insightful and well delivered video essay has earned my subscription. Hope to see more in the future
No, a good king puts the future of his people and the realm first. He would have set Aegon up as his successor as soon as he was born, or keep Rhaenyra and not marry at all. He was a bad King, that had some good scenes but made tons of mistakes while being extremely naive and disrespecting the succession law that his predecessors vassals voted for. And he was indecisive when it came to the stepstones. He completely neglected the children he had with Alicent, so he was also not a good father to anyone besides Rhaenyra.
15:07 “what are they gonna do to him? He’s the king” that’s pretty Maegor of you.
I just don't understand why people act like Viserys killed his wife. They state in plain Jane English that she's dead either way, but the only way to possibly save the baby is through an emergency C-Section. So the choice was either give Aemma a slow, painful death that will guarantee both the baby dies with his wife, or a quicker, painful death that has a chance to save the baby. There is literally no logical reason to choose the first option. The next argument is always "well he should have told her first" and I guess? But she's inebriated to hell and back on basically heroine (milk of the poppy) so by any standard of consent, she can't give it. Telling her what's about to happen is a surefire way to get her to start panicking before she can be properly restrained, further risking the procedure and therefore the baby. And some kind of decision needs to be made as soon as possible to minimize risk.
In the cold brutal calculus of the scene, Viserys made literally the only choice that might have salvaged anything from the situation, and I can't help but feel people's empathy for Aemma gets in the way of that reality. She was dead. There was no hope for her. He did not sentence her to death because she was already dead. If the procedure wasn't shown in such gruesome, gut wrenching detail, I feel like more people would be sympathetic to his choice. It's an effective scene in that regard but people come to the wrong conclusions over it.
100% agree, plus what would these same people do in that situation? Knowing their wife was dead either way, would they not attempt to save their child?
Probably skipped biology class
THIS THIS THIS. The scene makes pains to tell us she will not survive this labour. There is no option where she lives, or where Viserys can choose to save her. Of course she’s terrified, who wouldn’t be? That’s the only human reaction to what is happening to her, and it’s heart breaking. But I can’t see any alternative.
And even the idea that he should have stopped trying to have children with her…. I just can’t see that being conceivable to either of them in that time, in their position. For him to just stop going to her bed? For her to drink abortifacients after? As king and queen responsible for propagating the royal line? Even Aemma herself has that whole conversation with Rhaenyra where she impresses on her that bearing children is the highest and almost only duty of royal and noble women. On a human level, yeah, it’s awful. But in the social reality of that situation, it was what it was, fair or no.
Right? I thought the exact same thing. There didn't seem to be any way to save the queen. What should he have done differently? Let both, the child and mother die? Asking the mother for her opinion is a strange point. We don't ask patients while they are in severe pain, stress and under the influence for their opinion.
@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 exactly... there really was no way to give her a choice or even a warning. A warning would have panicked her just as much and not made it any less painful. The only other option was letting her and the baby die much more slowly, sadly.
I so agree with the last point. At the very least, he should have made Rhaenyra hand so that she could gradually take power as he was dying. It was a massive failure of judgement for her to leave and for him to let her.
(I still agree with the previous points about him overall having better judgement than people give him credit for.)
You lost me at the Aemma situation, it was horrible thing and heartbreaking. But the Maestors gave him no choice, one lives or both die. She was going to die either way, wether the baby got out or not her fate was sealed. Viserys is at fault for not noticing sooner the risk Aemma was in and seeing Rhaenyra’s potential but the way her death went was necessary for the baby, ofc Baelon died as well but his fate was sealed as well, die in the womb or have a chance to live even if it was a very thin chance. I don’t justify Viserys’s actions here but there wasn’t any other choice, save one or lose both.
Also it’s not Corlys who married Rhaenyra it was his son Leanor, just noticed that little mistake
i agree with you. but it was still viserys' mistake not to tell his wife what was happening to her and at least try to give her the choice
Hard agree
@@Alexwright12 some people don’t give the choice of killing their child, even if their spouse wants to.
@@Alexwright12 that was happening during the childbirthing and Aemma could have died anytime and the child with her. Sadly, there was no time to give her a choice.
@@Alexwright12he was sacrificing the love of his life for the prince that was promised to protect millions of people from the oncoming doom of the white walkers
Am I the only one to think Otto was smart to be spying on Daemon? In fact I would say it was his job as hand of the king to be spying on the next heir and greatest threat to the throne. Of course the King should have tabs on Daemon. And Otto deserves more credit for actually governing the realm for so long.
Yes Otto was in the right 100%.
13:28
Setting aside the obvious debate, this truly was loathsome, as you put it; Viserys should’ve let Aemma have her say in this, since it’s her life on the line.
Great video ! I think you forgot one mistake (and a big one) : taking back Otto Hightower as his Hand. He rightly identified him as a threat to the peace and should have stuck to that call. Otto's influence was definitly a big factor in Allicent's turn for the worse and their kid's entitlement. Viserys should have choosen a Hand to would facilitated the succession instead of opposing it.
Viserys already recognized Otto was trying to scheme Aegon onto the throne when he fired him the first time, bringing him back was just about the worst call he could've made. It was at that point after the death of Lyonel Strong that he should've asked Daemon to be Hand of the King, or even had Rhaenyra do it as Baelon had under Jaehaerys. Really there was only one wrong answer, and Viserys picked it
I think Viserys' biggest mistake was reinstating Otto as hand of the king. He knew Otto would always put his house and personal ambitions before the realm, but he let Allicent manipulate him into making Otto hand. Which to the surprise of no one he used to usurp Rhaenyra's throne.
He also should've had Crisitin Cole executed after murdering Joffrey, and sent Allicent back to Oldtown after she attacked Rhaenyra.
At the end of the day his lack of action to truly settle the dispute of succession started a civil war, just because he was a good man does not make him a good king, he was great at keeping the realm prosperous during his reign yes, but his inaction caused a civil war and downfall of his house.
Never thought I, along with George R.R Martin, would PREFER show Viserys to his book counterpart!
Good? Sure. Great? I think that’s a stretch. His straight up denial of his grandsons being bastards was pretty bad.
Then there’s the fact he tries to break tradition that the male inherits first in siblings. Yes, from our viewpoint we may not see an issue, but from those who live in this story, Viserys is breaking tradition. Hell, even Jahaerys made it clear during the great council that even if you try to claim through the mother to their male heir it won’t be socially accepted. So Viserys playing nilly with succession laws was always going to be a bad idea.
And lastly I disagree about Alicent being a good match in the political sense. The Hightowers were already solid with Otto being on the council. Outside of the Hightowers getting more power, I don’t see any real benefit in marrying her in the political sense. Now as for the Valareon’s it makes a lot of sense as Corlys felt cheated, and every slight was going to create problems.
I agree on everything but you saying Alicent wasn't a good match. The Hightowers were one of the strongest and richest houses in the realm. The show didn't show how powerful they were.
@@AaronGuest oh I know the Hightowers are powerful. But I just don’t see how giving a house who already had at one point, had the hand of the king position more power would be a good idea. You want to limit how much power a house has so the can’t overthrow you. And although I don’t believe Otto would’ve overthrown Viserys while he was alive, it’s still just good politics to cover your back.
@@ryanelliott71698 The Hightowers wouldn't just be able to overthrow him. Especially not when the next king would have Hightower blood, and why would Otto even attempt to overthrow Aegon or Viserys, the Targaryens have dragons, doing that would be nothing more then suicide. And by that logic, he definitely shouldn't have married a Velaryon, because they have a lot of power also.
@@AaronGuest wrong way of phrasing it. What I was thinking in my head was that high positions such as the small council where you don’t want to just fill it with one house of kingdom. As doing so could anger other lords who want a position on the council. Marriage is no different. It’s a political tool. So giving the Hightowers another “position” when they’ve already got one would mean it’s going to waste. That’s why marrying Leana would’ve been a better option as it pacifies Corlys, who feels bitter after being wronged several times to getting his blood on the iron throne.
Viserys breaking tradition wouldn't have mattered if he hadn't divided house Targaryen, even if the lords had rebelled when Rhaenyra became queen they wouldn't had stood a chance against the mfckers with dragons.
I knew someone once who said that making a good choice requires you to have good options. I've never forgotten that, and I think it applies well to Viserys.
I absolutely love your videos. One of the most interesting arcs to me from HOTD was Ser Criston Cole's, from lowborn nobody to Rhaenyra's bodyguard, then her (debateably willingly) boytoy, then finally Alicent's man. I would love to hear your insight on this if you choose to examine this in a future video. Thank you for making this content for us!
Eventually, Ser Criston was known as “The Kingmaker” in the book. Such a meteoric rise, but GRRM doesn’t make him a stereotypical knight.
Cole was a knight from a family of them. Not noble level of noble, but still not lowborn
I also think a marriage with Laena would be a failure because the new child, if ever conceived, would have the exact same outcome with the Hightowers replaced by Velaryons with mightier armies and dragons. The new "son" would have a much stronger backing making Rhaenyra's claim even worse.
Honestly if his last words about some prophecy hadn’t been misinterpreted, then probably he would have handled a tense political situation and narrowly avoided war.
His last words affected nothing but Alicent's opinion. Otto was already preparing the throne for Aegon
Part of jaehaerys’ peace was to end polygamy.
For Rhaenyras kids it’s also a known fact Laenor was gay. That + the fact they are Rhaenyras kids makes turning a blind eye easy, and indeed Rhaenyra still had loyal lords even in spite of the unspoken truth of her kids.
What a fantastic video. Throughout the show I was constantly upset with viserys' decisions. But he was still my favorite character by a mile, a flawed but good man. A flawed king who did some very good things.
He could have renewed the pledge that names Rhaenyra as his heir even after Aegon was born, and he should have appointed her as hand and regent to rule in his stead.
The first gives the greens the pretense to usurp the throne after his passing, the second hands them the means to do so.
If you wanted a civil war after your death, how would you do that? I'd align two factions against eachother, keep my prefered succesor vague, and make sure that the least legitimate side is given the opportunity to make a move. Viserys could hardly have done worse if he tried, unless he privately told Alicent that he intended for Aegon to succeed him right before his death for laughs. Wouldn't that be stupid.
I do not think Viserys is a bad king at all. But the first banishment of Daemon was a trigger to Viserys losing to Otto. Without Daemon in Kings landing, there was no one to point out that Alicent getting close to Viserys was Otto's ploy. Whether grief stricken or not Daemon wouldve been honest right away to Viserys.
In the books ASOIAF, When Janos Slynt was Commander of the City Watch, Roberts tourney to celebrate Ned Stark's appointment as hand experienced a lot of crimes before or during the tourney. Daemon's actions was cruel and harsh, but it made sense since Lords and Ladies of different houses would be in Kings landing as much as its a cleanup it also served as a warning.
He's a great man, made a few mistakes, allowed himself to be taken advantage of, and didn't do anything significant to change that before his death.
allowed needs to be in BOLD there.
He made some risks and it cost him, but he made them consciously believing that he was making the right choice.
I really liked how a lot of people thought they had fooled him when in fact he knew about most of what was happening and was instead playing his own game and got mostly everything he wanted
A few mistakes that only led to a war and the destruction of his house.
@@AN-sm9ju i'm just downgrading the gravity of his fuckups cause of that entrance in ep 8
@@AN-sm9ju I disagree.
The house was already in disarray before.
Jaehaerys was considered "the best king" but look closely and you see how much his house was ALREADY a mess and all he did was postpone the fall. Hell, most of his children died before him, some a direct result of his actions. And this is THE BEST King.
His daughter's illegitimate children was not his fault which was a big part of what caused the war.
Yes, naming his daughter heir was a bold move, but is it really that much of a mistake?
He did it cause he believed that she was the best choice, and wasn't he right?
Even with her being a woman (a risk he was aware of) and her children (again, not his fault) it still ONLY doesn't work out because of a miscommunication with his wife when he was SICK AND DYING.
All the man did was try to put a woman on the throne, and it only failed because of things out of his control, I don't know if i can call that a mistake.
Marrying Alicent was a mistake and it was all a plan of the Hightowers, but Jaehaerys was actually the one that named Otto hand of the king in the first place, and Viserys trusted his father's judgement but, as we know, he discovered later on that Otto didn't have his best interests in mind.
And it's not like that mistake changes much, does it? He still makes the marriage alliance with the Velaryon, and Alicent was actually a good Queen.
When i truly look at it, despite his mistake of marrying for love, and his risky bet of putting a woman on the throne, he did a pretty good job of handling the mess that he was dealt.
Again, Jaehaerys was called the best King and yet it was clear that during his reign the Targaryen house was already crumbling.
Jaehaerys was able to hold it, Viserys was not, but let's not pretend he caused something that was brewing way before he was born.
Sure, he could have done better, but, like this video arguees, when you look at the finer details, Viserys did a fine job with the hand he was dealt
@@Mananpicar Jaehaerys is not Viserys' father, he's his grandfather. And making Rhaenyra heir was fine when he had no other children but then he decided to marry again and have tons of other kids and doubled down on keeping Rhaenyra as heir despite having 3 sons now. This pretty much made it guarenteed that there would be civil war upon his death and yet he did basically nothing for decades to try and prevent it or stop it, causing one of the worst wars in the history of the continent killing countless people, crippling his house and killing all the Targaryen dragons, you know I don't know man that seems like an enormous failure to me. And you're right that this started with Jaehaerys ultimately since he was the one who set the precedent on female succession but Viserys was absolutely not dealt a bad hand at all, his bad choices were what made most of the issues of his reign.
On the topic of Viserys accepting Rhaenyra's first three sons, the only thing that would've likely improved the situation was him privately accepting the fact that they were bastards-even while proclaiming legitimacy.
Rhaenyra states that she and Laenor tried to have legitimate children, but it just wasn't happening. Meanwhile, as you stated, Viserys feels the the Targaryen line needs to be strengthened through more heirs. Especially Rhaenyra as heir apparent. Making her annul her marriage to Laenor in favor of a spouse who could "provide heirs" would've been political suicide. It would have publicly alienated House Velaryon through their own heir apparent. Not to mention the loss of the benefits they reaped at bridging the gap between the houses since the Great Council decision between Viserys and Rhaenys.
However, Laenor seemed willing and even happy to declare the children as his own. So, as far as Viserys is concerned, there's no disservice being done to his son-in-law (who seems happy enough as a father/husband) and his daughter has solidified her line with three male heirs to follow her.
The major issue, aside from the outward appearances of the kids as a dead giveaway of illegitimacy, was the constant contention brought up by Alicent and the Greens. Viserys seemed to believe if he just "faked it till he made it" the issue would go away. But clearly Alicent in particular was not having it, and no doubt was sick of being gaslit about an obvious fact.
A smarter thing to do, or attempt quietly at least, would be to have total honesty on the matter with only Alicent, Rhaenyra, and Laenor. No one else. This should have been hashed out in the utmost privacy between the four of them, where Viserys could have said: Rhaenyra and Laenor have an arrangement, as long as they are willing to keep to it then publicly we'll declare the boy legitimate. But no one is being fooled.
Subsequently, in the best case scenario, they could even strategize and think of ways to deal with the pitfalls of this arrangement for the sake of the children and themselves. For example, what Viserys did with the dragon eggs in their cradles to strengthen legitimacy. Or, maybe even bringing up that one idea of marrying Helaena to Jaecerys. Etc, etc.
Do I personally think Alicent would've accepted this or been happy about it? No. Of course not. But it is clear that blatantly ignoring the issue to her face and giving weak excuses was only making the tension worse. As we saw with the scene where Alicent tries to take Lucerys's eye for Aemond's, it's clear she's most frustrated about doing her duty and being ignored when she's wronged or when someone else doesn't get the same consequences to their actions as she would. As her husband, Viserys knows that Alicent was getting continually frustrated at talking around the issue and being ignored.
Although it wouldn't fix it, Viserys being honest and open (even privately) with his wife would've at least eased the tension. Best case, though unlikely, scenario is that Alicent feels included in resolving the issue and is more willing to seal the breach with a marriage between her children and Rhaenyra's. Probably one of the reasons that she rejected this suggestion in the show was due to her already mounting frustration, it would essentially be forcing her to accept the gaslighting by her husband and Rhaenyra publicly for THEIR sake-not hers. Meanwhile, honesty about their legitimacy in private would've given her a better sense of autonomy in making the decision. Rather than feeling pressured by public opinion of the council or the kingdom. Remember, Rhaenyra made the betrothal suggestion in a public setting rather than approaching Alicent and Viserys privately. This was almost definitely an attempt to help force Alicent's hand on the matter. Even Lord Otto, Lord Strong, and the Velaryons respectfully approached Viserys privately when making their betrothal suggestions.
The Dance was mostly caused by Otto and Daemon. They are both second sons that are selfish and ambitious (though they express it in different ways). More than anyone else, they push the realm to war. You could argue that the political system itself pushes second sons to behave like this as they will always have a legitimate bone to pick with the status quo.
Rhaenyra also gets a big portion of the blame. Having three bastards sons really weakened her political position and she has to own that foolishness.z
Don't forget Lary's Strong influence either. He clearly helps advance the Dance and wields a power Visery's can't really fight.
King Viserys really only real mistake was trusting Otto too much. I think the falling out with his Hightower children was inevitable one he realized the true scope of Otto's treachery. it's hard to really connect with children once you know they're pawns being used against you. It's only natural to what to keep some professional distance.
Damn, it really is a war of Second Sons, huh?
Thank you. The other characters are grown adults with their own choices to make and own. Just because Viserys left room for them to engage in shitty behavior does not absolve them of responsibility for their own actions.
@@abekrappeflinger108 he is their superior he should make sure their no shiity behavior by principle
Let's not forget Laenor was obvious in his interest in men and was not good at acting loving or doting with Rhaenyra. Viserys most likely saw this too and understood that after a few years his daughter would have to do what she had to do to keep the line going, if Laenor could not perform Rhaenyra had to continue the line herself. She even states this to Daemon when reunited.
When Viserys second of his name is born from Daemon and Rhaenyra the King Viserys states, "Now that is the name of a King."
Take that as you will but King Viserys knew his nephew -grandson was true born.
You mentioned about the (political) pragmatism of Viserys marrying Rhaenyra, and of course we know the Targaryens did practice dynastic incest, but were there ever any parent/child marriages? I was under the impression that was a bridge too far even for them.
I think they did, but usually it wasn't the royal heirs doing that, it was the cousins and kin from the time they were living on Dragonstone in the wake of the Doom.
@@lindenshepherd6085 no, in the entire targaryen history no child married their parent
24:34 blud pulled a classic CK2 & 3’s AGOT type move 😂
He is my favourite character in the whole series, even though a lot could have been avoided if he had just married the 12 year old 😂😂🥲 I loved his loyalty and love for Rhaenyra, even if it wasn't always easy
Bro no, Otto was making up the claims of Daemon to try and have him removed from the council entirely, Daemon wanted to be his hand, his most trusted advisor but there was always Otto who was scheming against Viserys and Viserys was too weak to see it, so sorry that one counts against Viserys.
What claims did he make up?
@@unmarkd7123 I assume he's talking about the "heir for a day" line Daemon supposedly said regarding the death of Viserys's son, Baelyon.
@@unmarkd7123 when Otto is telling Viserys how brutal he was with the kingsguard, (not defending that, he was) Viserys tells Otto, when he was master of laws you said he was corrupt etc. Otto always tried to get rid of Daemon and made every excuse to get him out of his council positions, had Viserys made Daemon hand instead of Otto then Otto wouldn’t have been there to shuffle Daemon into all these other meaningless council positions.
Yeah, I fail to see how a weak man who makes horrible decisions can possibly be a good ruler.
Definitely, I mean, Viserys states that being a "tyrant" and a "man who would bankrupt the realm" was things that Daemon WOULD do, not have done or was doing. It was pretty likely that Otto was sabotaging Daemon, we don't have any evidence despite Otto`s biased opinion that he was that bad on those jobs. Viserys was completely blind and tightly manipulated by his hand.
This makes me think of all those leaders who go unnoticed because they don’t cause or less during great upheavals or changes, like things aren’t improving or event getting worse just peaceful and consistent which is better than the probably years of war or disasters that happened before or around them
Viserys biggest mistake was making Rhaenyra heir in the first place. Daemon was the best option, even tho he wasn't responsible and had done many awful things, Viserys knew that he loved his family. In the later episodes of the show Daemon is mature and detriment to have one of his own sons to sit on the throne. If Viserys had trusted him with the dream of Aegon Daemon would have understood the seriousness of the situation and his anger towards Viserys would have dissapated. He could also marry Rhaenyra and than Viserys didn't have to marry, or atleast would have more time to choose.
I shan't fight you on this, lol. I loved King Viserys. Paddy absolutely smashed his role
Aegon's prophecy was an input from GRRM to Ryan Condell, and it has been hinted that Aegon may have had this motivation when he conquered the Seven Kingdoms in the books. So I think it's fair to presume this existed in ASOIAF.
His last words said so much about him. And they were only two words. "My love." I could tell he had seen only Emma in those final moments.
The analysis in this video is excellent, but I think I'd disagree on the point about abdication potentially angering the lords as a female heir would. IMO, a major reason that many of the lords voted against Rhaenys' queenship (apart from misogyny), was that it could potentially establish a precedent that might call their own succession into question if they had elder sisters etc. It wasn't just that they didn't like new things or 'woman bad' - it was that the precedent set by a woman ascending to the Iron Throne was potentially an active threat to their own power.
Taking two wives is actually pretty controversial in Westeros. With Aegon, no one could really say shit because he conquered the world and the grand Sept gave his blessing, and Maegor was a cruel unchecked dictator.
A second wife could turn the Sept against him and that’s never good as a king
Viserys is a great father to his first child, a terrible father to his other children and a middling King.
15:01 you can't just bring that up lol, dude was literally suffering from dimentia. He even mistook Rhaenyra once. 😂😂
As much as I'm sympathetic for your take, Viserys failed at strenghtening Rhaenyra's claim. This whole time, he had the power to do so. Maybe if he acknowledged that Rhaenyra had bastards he could have given something to them, while legitimizing Viserys (his grandson from Daemon) as the heir to Rhaenyra. That way, the Velaryon would have been livid, but there would have been a clear line of succession.
Viserys inherited a kingdom at its peak from jaeherys the councilor, the man who ruled the longest and probably the best
Saying his reign was good and peaceful so he was a good king is disangenuos because he is riding on the wind of a far superior ruler than he
Viserys could have literally done nothing and the kindom would have survived but he fcked it up , he wanted to be tested and was tested ever since aegon was born
Sure, mate.
@@johnkonig865 Am I wrong??
@@marshalsunrise6582 Yes.
29:09 bro, this scene is pure gold, damn
him declaring Princess Rhaenyra heiress AND remarrying were both compatible and not only sound but necessary choices. If it was the master schemers and politickers from both the current era like Otto or even the succeeding one like Tywin and Littlefinger in the king's position, they would very much do the same thing with even less hindrance. It is absolutely vital to secure by public annuoncement the current lineage in term of succession with his only heir at the time (girl or boy) as well as crucial to ensure more "backup" heirs as soon as possible given how precarious their family dynasty is in the first few episodes.
what he arguably did really wrong however is not reverse this decision when Aegon was born, and in turn pass over his heirage to him over his daughter (something that Tywin would do so in a heartbeat over cercei). He chose instead to stand on his laurels and integrity of both his words and for the trust he placed on his daughter. Great, honest and family man (reminds me of eddard stark in a lot of ways). Not a great political machiavellian like Tywin or Otto though. So depends on how you define a "king" in the end.
Love it when you cant stop yourself and just sink teeths deep into an aspect of fiction you're passionate about.
THAT scene
When he struggles his way to the throne, still send me to tears
Its the first time he actually conquers the throne. And he does it for the person he loves more than anything
Considine should definitely get the Emmy
However the Emmys are a joke so I fear for the worst
All hail king Viserys
There was nothing wrong with Rhaenyra being queen. The realm would have bickered, maybe a small rebellion or two, but all in all things would continue on.
Rhaenyra ruined all of this by having Strongs kids. It fueled so much into the infighting, Otto thrived in it, Alicent and Rhaenyras children grew to hate one another over it.
Rhaenyra destroyed her fathers peace.
He meant well but his actions directly lead to the dance of the dragons so he killed a ridiculous amount of people and damn near his whole bloodline unintentionally
People saying Viserys shouldn't have had more kids are forgetting the recent history of his family. Viserys succeeded his grandfather, and his own father, the previous heir, was the FOURTH born child, the third son. He would be WAY too aware of how easy it was for heirs to die, since he wouldn't have ever become king otherwise. For all he knew, Rhaenyra would inherit the same luck all of Jaehaerys' daughters got.
Yes a great king who committed to nothing sowed the seeds for a succession crisis and only made major decisions when he was bullied or manipulated into making them. Amazing king.
Weep more greenie
It's easier to place the blame on one person than for everyone in the room to take accountability for their actions, regardless of their intentions. "Everyone could do better but paradoxically are doing the best they can" is a thing I have to remind myself daily
Now if Viserys had claimed Vermithor after his grandfather's death, his position would not be so easily challenged by Daemon and Corlys since Vermithor is second only to Vhagar in size and therefore he is older and larger than Caraxes.
Viserys had already ridden Balerion though, until he died, and it's unclear whether a rider even CAN claim another dragon if the first one dies
You should do a dialog dive video for House of The Dragon. I'd definitely watch
I really don't understand how you can argue a weak man who makes horrible decisions can possibly be a good ruler.
Tbh, him getting her pregnant again and again fully knowing how it was weakening and endangering her was certainly a horrible decision. No doubt about that. However, not sure how the actual event of the birth could have been handled better, other than the obvious of trying to give her a sedative or pain reliever like milk of the poppy. I mean, by that point, the mistakes had already been made, and all he could do was try to salvage a horrific situation.
Without the benefit of hindsight, it looked like a choice between losing both of them or saving the child. Yes, if he had prophetic powers and could accurately predict that the baby would die regardless, then sure, the best choice would have been to make Aema as comfortable as possible while she and her baby died. But he had no prophetic powers. And if someone is losing their wife no matter what but is told they may be able to save their child, of course they would try to save their child. The only horribly unjust thing that happened was not trying to reduce Aema's pain, because I seriously doubt the maesters had no way to do that.
I mean, he could've asked for her input on what they should do. Or asked the Maesters if there was some way to save her at the cost of the child's life, as an inverse of what they actually suggested.
The "Obsession" with having a male heir with Aemma was related to his obsession with Aegon's dream...which was correct. He was making a decision here that could have possibly doomed the entire continent if he chose wrongly.
But also in the short sight: if he had no male heir, there would be another situation similar to Jaehaerys' succession. The first thing a king must provide is an heir who could move forward the dynasty and strenghten the security of the rule. And if he had taken another wife alongside Aemma, he'd probably caused another rebellion of the Faith, since polygamy wasn't an option (something that even Rhaegar should have known when, as many think, he intended to have both Elia and Lyanna as wives).
Probably the best thing Viserys should have done on this matter was cast aside Aemma and take another wife _before conceiving Baelon_ after many miscarriages. But the couple genuinely loved each other, and how House Arryn would have react to the member of their family who became Queen being discarded?
Viserys had many burdens on his shoulders.
Was there no one in the Vale or the Stormlands for Viserys to marry?
Or the North? I mean, the Stark words match up with the Conqueror's Dream, and the children of such a match could result in dragons in the North, to protect the realm...
Your opening sentences about GOT (and more broadly ASOIAF) summarized my thoughts EXACTLY. And I think we're not the only ones, hence the popularity of this series.
BTW - GRRM himself said he prefers the show version of Viserys!
He did oversee one of the only and longest periods of peace Westeros had.
Actually that might be attributed to Jahaeris 😥 so
Targaryens dont marry with their sons or doughters. They draw the line in siblings. An Laenna was the best match; targaryen blood, strengthens the bond between the two most important Valyrian families (fuck u, house Celtigar), repairs the wounds of the council of 101 avoiding that the other only house with dragons start having ideas.
I mean, that's some Craster's shit
@@thecountbrothers2287 book wise she was older than rhaenyra alicent was born in 88 AC being 18 at this time and laena 92 AC being fourteen and rhaenyra in 97 AC being 9
The second Rhaenys decided to turn a crowd of peasants into powder just to prove a point, I realized how much of a bullet Westeros dodged with Viserys.
A deeply flawed man who recognized how dangerous their WMDs with teeth are, and tried his best to keep everyone together -- lowkey a great fictional leader.
Love the show (and your video), but the biggest failing of HOTD is that we ran through the setup for the dance of the dragons so quickly. 20 years of time can't be covered in 10 hours of TV.
I love any video that contains the words 'fight me.' I'm so ready.
I feel the same way already from reading the main series, Dunk & Egg, HotD, and deeply researching Fire & Blood. About to watch your video now
Viserys is pretty good at igniting civil war, S tier Targaryen king