Self-improvement is ugly | Krishnamurti
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- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2024
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David Bohm is one of the few people (maybe the only one) who never gets scolded by K. K agrees with pretty much everything Bohm says. It's pretty clear that Bohm understands K and his teachings, and the fondness they have for each other is obvious IMO.
Only he can sit with k
Bohms questions are so good and designed to bring clarity to Ks message that he cannot scold him. K is like Babe Ruth trying to tell someone how to hit a home run without Bohm interviews.
Bohms questions are so good and designed to bring clarity to Ks message that he cannot scold him. K is like Babe Ruth trying to tell someone how to hit a home run without Bohm interviews.
Beautiful
David Bohm and Allan W. Anderson were probably the only 2 people to truly understand what K. was trying to convey at depth.
To me this is de definition of a collaborative thinking method. They truly know how to explore one concept at a time.
We are already violent, envious, aggressive... I mean, those features are human, and acknowledging that stops the conflict. When we try to suppress, deny or modify it, it's like hiding it under the carpet. In a nutshell, what he is saying is to accept what is instead of resisting it.
Well, not really to accept what is. But to understand it
@@sthembisomazibuko9146 You are right. When you see it as it is, without any interpretation, understanding arises.
Thank You Very Very Very Much 🦋
Thank you Krishnaji 🙏🙏❤
Se lo ascoltiamo veramente e più volte è chiaro quello che dove Krishnamurti. ❤
Thank you. 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Thank you both Krishnamurti and David Bohm. 🌸
YOU CAN PLAN IT!! I experienced a breakthrough!!!
I love these conversations with JK and Bohm ❤
my boy JK knew some rules of the fight club.
Fr bro I’ve been thinking the same thing 😂
Yeah me the same feeling...self improvement is masturbation
I been thinking the same thing.
Didn't understand? Could you please explain
Wanting to be free is the greatest prison
Wanting is desire/thought. A prison of time.
Dang...
how can you want to be free if you are already? if all things already are.
but in the illusion of time and space we are tricked into thinking we must wait for it, or that it is over there somewhere. I think thats the core of this understanding.
to say there is a prison, or to say there is freedom, are both in itself not observing either of them.
to be able to have observations - is to be able to be free of their disorganising effect on us...
@@toomuchfandango to be able to have observations is to be able to be free of their effects...it almost sounds like a paradox. How can we observe something that doesn't exist? How can we observe something and it not have effects on us? Are we just refusing to believe what our observations imply? Is that a form of delusion? How can we psych ourselves out of time and space?
Good video
Wow, two brilliant minds at work here. Bohm's rapid understanding and deductions from K's subtle statements were impressive. Also, I think that the answer to K's last question is theoretically yes, but in reality, possibly no (depending on the extent to which a person can break free from the psychological tendency to 'cling' to ideals).
🙏Krishnamurti
There must be no time space between to be violent and non-violent. No psychological conflict. No ideal progress of our psyche in time. The moment you realise that violence is a false state of being, you cease to be violent in any senses all at once. You do not lie; you do not deceive the others to sell them something; you do not support wars falsely called peace keeping; you do not want to possess another human being calling it love; you do not want to enslave others; you do not justify starving others. Each one of us is humanity. There is no separation between me and you. I am you. We all cooperate to a violent society. What is violence?
They are all thoughts/time. None of that exists in observation, which has nothing to do with thoughts/time.
This is the first time I've seen Krishnamurti talk where he didn't seem totally annoyed.
Lol
I never saw him annoyed 😅😀
I imagine that we already are non violent. Peace. So to want to become non violent appears to be an illusion. Instead of wanting to change from violence to non violence, perhaps it would make more sense to see what’s blocking us from seeing our own peace, within and awaken to our true nature.
🙏❤🌻
When you are at war or need to survive it is impossible to think like that. One can only entertain this thoughts only when survival is taken care of and his/her future is secured Or else it is a great distraction.
Can we have the definition of survival from it starts till it ends?
@@LightuntoSelf I think ronandsorum main idea behind the thought is that people who are in the moment of choosing act such as violence wouldn't be going or had gone through such conditions which would allow them to get to the point where they give time to think about all that.
Remember this, that there are so many things to think and human mind just CANNOT cover all of it in even 30% of total 80 years lifespan.
If you start from that perspective, you find that your thoughts and the thinking that builts about those thoughts merely exists because of external influences. Like when we talk about non-violence which widely known personalities come to your mind? You know the answers of mine are going to be overlapped with yours because we have already resonated some historical figures with certain ideas. We have been taught about them since childhood.
The other question: Which widely known historical figures come to your mind who has climbed the Mount Everest? Or surfed the seven seas? There are far less common answers now
You understand where I'm going with this. The initial directional influence is required and it's unfortunate that those who are struggling to fill their empty stomach since early childhood, or some other basic needs such as freedom or need to live in peace without conflicts etc. wouldn't reach, or will get the proper influence to choose non-violence when it need to.
Such thoughts and conversation become mere entertainments for all of us if you look with my given information.
This extends to Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. The journey to self actualization is easier traveled when the bottom levels of the pyramid(food, shelter, etc) are met
War isn't so common for normal citizens. Being violent for survival and being violent for other purposes is not at all the same when your life is threatened your body will automatically react. But when your life isn't threatened you still get violent. Most people have their survival secured they have everything they need food, water, shelter and Medicine.
They are much more real in the subject then anyone i have seen before. Specially on video, which is common today, people imposing there social ego without knowing it. Because u know there are many people watching. Also it is much easier to achieve a high degree, because it is much easier to acquire the funds to do so because there is alot more money in circulation. U could say that the percentage of people is more educated, but the handful of people like Pr Bohm and K are a rare breed. Just imagine the real effort it takes to gain the knowledge and specially the insight. A lifetime is to short for that. And if the world suggest otherwise because it is easy to gain something upon a certain level, isnt that suggesting the opposite?
Because of society, we insist on being something we have never been. We already have a previous problem, what the world did to us, we are the world. And now, we want to create a new layer, a new facet on us, a kind of perfect personality. That´s why all the powerful egos, especially the politicians, die in extreme agony, sorrow. They show us, a great circus, that they are brilliant, intelligent, necessary, pacifist...and honest. That spoken image shocks itself directly into what they really are - ladine, rotten, violent wolves, foxes, worms. Minds avoiding other minds, attacking themselves, lying constantly ; what the world knows is one thing, what I hide is other. Thanks for the video, good insights.
Time is motion, just as all forms of violence require motion. In other words. The only way to end time and all of the violence that necessarily stems from it. Is to still ones mind. To simply be what I am NOW without thought. Best wishes 🙏
You've articulated some of the best ideas. Amazing. ❤
Violence requires motion, motion relates to time, hence to end time is to end motion thus ceasing the very source of violence.
Bro whosoever you're, you've literally shook me. 😅 ❤
Sorry motion isnt equated to violence, almost everything needs motion even at the subatomic scale. Life needs motion, seeking knowledge needs motion. If this is what he meant, we have to stop all beings from existing. Since stopping something from existing itself is violence, we need violence to achieve a state of non violence. Its analogous to say, that someone wants to be dead to be non violent.
Education is the manifestation of perfection already within man. The more we do deeds of love the lesser is the need to talk about goodness and self transformation
Non violence is a thought.
Non-violence was originally a weapon or tool used in order to beat a stronger opponent.
...and who told you that?
It’s a thought
Gandhi used it for his successful ' Quit India' movement
.. Ahimsa ... Against the British ... And Martin Luther king Jr used it for Civil Rights movement .
@@maishaferdousi4865 Quit India was not successful. Gandhi was a clever politician. In WW1, he was recruiting for the British Army. He only preached tolerance, non-violence and even complete surrender only to the Hindus, never to the Moslems. No one has twisted and corrupted the lofty teaching of Ahimsa in Hinduism more than Gandhi. Violence employed in self-defence or to uphold Dharma is necessary and even encouraged.
@@wulf67 Disarm your opponent before you enslave him. Just look around man.
And all this speculation is going on in the awareness of the self. Make finding this self more important than this speculation.
.Ideal scene help us to move towards that ideal gradually..
Duality, is within us, 2 opposing ideas/emotions We can travel from one to another. It is not an illusion.
There are persons who became non violent with psichoterapy.
He explains the discreteness of psychological time (chronological time is continuous). You can't comprehend a continuous process of future about yourself as discrete function in your mind, you will be speculating at most and that brings more pain/hope. So being mindfully at present is a worthy living. Doesnt mean you shouldnt be wanting to or planning to be non violent or vegan. Just know, being in the psychological time about self, isnt that real or valuable. Do what you can, but do it now. Your speculation and planning will be much different in the chronological time than the psychological time.
When the 'observer' is 'observed' its only possible in the present state.
Essere consapevole nel presente porta la risposta giusta.Chi ha provato in pratica nelle situazioni difficili di vita lo sa. Krishnamurti dice sempre Prova ,non pensare.Questo che lui parla sono le cose più semplici,più normali,più vitali ecc
True, yet people like being mystified by his answers. He wants people to think by themselves. Yet comment section of most of his videos are filled with people who are thrilled to not understand him.
@@suvakashdey6701 Si si ,ripetono certe frasi di K come dei zombi.Poi lo imitano e dicono sir ...
@@tanjaosilic6641 yes 'the speaker is trying to mimic sir' 😅
This is good
how can you want to be free if you are already? if all things already are.
but in the illusion of time and space we are tricked into thinking we must wait for it, or that it is over there somewhere. I think thats the core of this understanding.
to say there is a prison, or to say there is freedom, are both in itself not observing either of them.
to be able to have observations - is to be able to be free of their disorganising effect on us...
You can't take anything man has ever said seriously, he had no peace. Not to mention he was so damn certain of everything, you know, like a fool.
I agree
How did you know he didn't have peace? He was certain because it was an experience. If you had an experience of knowledge or discovered it yourself anyone would be certain.
“I need the postman, but if I use him to satisfy some inner urge, then the social need becomes a psychological necessity and our relationship has undergone a radical change. It is this psychological need and usage of another that makes for violence and misery. Psychological need creates the search for power, and power is used for gratification at different levels of our being. The man who is ambitious for himself or for his party, or who wants to achieve an ideal, is obviously a disintegrating factor in society.” - Jiddu Krishnamurti
It is very, very important not to have a self (a man made psychological program in the brain). The self creates the psychological need and this is where all our violence stems from. The psychological need is based on thought.
Thought is the instrument of psychological programming / brainwashing / conditioning. The ending of thought eliminates all psychological suffering.
All these bad memories that destroy everything.
To me, David Bohm shined more than Krishnamurti sahab. Bohms ideas were conflicting to Krishnamurti ideas, but was very clear in his criticism and negation.
Bohms ideas were conflicting with k's,Is it so?
JK❤
03:58
As Descartes rightly said - i think that's y I'm....as jk says here we r the mind. thinker is the thought.....
Actually, Decarte's quote is the exact opposite, not to mention the very basis of Western individualism. It is saying, look at me, I exist because I think. JK is saying there is no you as the thinker is dissolved into thought, another illusion.
No, Descartes' quote establishes dualism, K. says the opposite. Descartes means that as long I am thinking, I am, because even if all my knowledge were illusory, the thinker exists in so far as he is thinking. Thinking requires a subject (thinker) that contains it. Therefore this subject exists (actually). Thinking isn't possible without a thinker, just as the experiencer isn't possible without an experience, and vice versa. But K.'s point is that the entire concept of a thinking subject is a delusion. There is only thought going on inside the brain, which is just a process, but the duality of thinker and thought are just an invention of thought. Thought has a false notion of itself.
I can intellectualize about all he says about time and hope and self improvement, have for many decades, yet the movement of the whole has never entered my 'existence'. I realize it is because of the limited cleverness of the brain...
Why is a psychological ideal different than a physical ideal like a bridge. Why can’t you produce non violence in the same way you can produce a bridge.
We are already violent, envious, aggressive... I mean, those features are human, and acknowledging that stops the conflict. When we try to suppress, deny or modify it, it's like hiding it under the carpet. In a nutshell, what he is saying is to accept what is instead of resisting it.
I guess the way to check this is by knowing oneself deeply, without creating a mental image or an ideal of what you are. Try to never get angry or violent, and you will see the pressure that it creates within yourself. It will blow out sooner or later.
Trying to become non-violent when you are violent is apart of the same field of thought. A person who is truly non-violent doesn't need to come to the 'conclusion' of being non-violent, so therefore there's no method necessary to reach it. It's kind of like trying to build a bridge when it's already there.
I think the idea is that we humans, or rather the human psyque, is a whole. Psychologists illustrate this with the idea of the conscious-egoic mind and its complementary unconscious mind. If you are to produce non-violence, you're not eradicating violence, you're delegating it to the unconscious. This is a dualistic cosmogony.
By accepting that both pairs coexist simultaneously, you bring about harmonious balance. If you stress one side over the other, you create tension, imbalance.
Jk saying here that violence, fear,greed selfishness are fact of human psyche and saying that human being to be non greedy ,unselfish and no fear is illsuion the fear ,selfishness and fear should end and then one that remain is non violence , basically what we call ideal , these stages are not something u can achieve these are result of ending of what's before,and this is what causes division in psyche viplence wnd non violence ,"violent" which is me and I want to be that which is "non violent "and constant conflicts
This is whqt I understood I don't knwo how closw I am to his teaching
Since humans became humans (and stopped acting based off of instincts and started to think), the nature of humans became illusory. It is a realm we must operate in - both peace and violence are concepts made by humans. So he is wrong - because of the very nature of humans, we have no other option but to chose one or the other. Both are equally illusory and so is everything else a human experiences or perceives (except for the remains of primitivity still present). Then one could wonder about what it actually is - illusions or higher understanding, or a step of evolution?
Probably the first comment I have seen here that makes sense! You always have a choice. Saying humans are inherently violent is accepting something as a default where you have a choice.
No that's wrong. He is telling that you can't be non violent if you are violent because you are merely running away from the fact that you are violent. Both aren't equally illusionary if you are violent you are violent telling you aren't is illusionary. You have to live with what is not what should be. If you try to be non violent it wastes energy you maybe one for the time being but inside the violence still exists
Beautiful words and great people but what's the point? Why is self-improvement utterly ugly? Why is becoming it's illusory but building a bridge is not? ( if we want to be non-violent we can't become non-violent with one click of our fingers we need a graduate plan for step-to-step to change ourselves like that building process of the bridge) And why do all these questions make sense?
JK is the OG Tyler-Durden
Prime example of how a limited language like English cannot be used to explain complex ideas.
Dualistic language can never describe what is non-dual.
It can. It’s just a pointer. It’s not complex. Complexity is a deep thought. K’s speaking of being free of that. Simplicity. Observing/feeling/witnessing. Simple things. All the rest of it is just thoughts making themselves important.😊
brain is always struggling with the known and the journey of known begins with birth then without understanding itself gets educated and have a world view which is very narrow and limited out of that it forms opinions judgments about violence and non violence that’s what jk and db are conveying
I wish he didn't interrupt JK