Invaders tend to be more skilled simply because they spend more time fighting other players with the odds stacked against them. It's like swinging a bat with a weight on it all day, and then taking it off. There's also that by nature, the weakest invaders are going to get weeded out as they're more likely to quit, while stronger invaders see more success and thus stick around longer.
Definitely a fair point. It's very much a "train under 100x earth's gravity" and then land on Namek type scenario. Suddenly, you're better than any Ginyu gank out there and you're looking to fight. Even still, a lot of players who do have the requisite skill in PVP choose not to invade because they want the advantage and I think a lot of "regular" players don't get to see that side of invasions because to them it's always veteran v. noob.
You are most certainly my favorite “invasion philosopher” other than the man; the myth; the legend; saint_riot himself. Your thoughts are concise and eloquent and I have thoroughly enjoyed every video you’ve made thus far. Keep up the good work Mr. Jon
Any saint comparisons are high praise and much appreciated. Just trying to bring something worthwhile to the space and it means a lot that it's resonating.
I don't think Duels are boring or useless personally, there is definitely something or two one can learn from the PvP Arena, but my issue is that you can only Duel so much and eventually will hit a plateau where you can not only no longer improve, but also will start to realize how much potential you're missing from skipping Invasions, as they offer the actual intended experience FromSoft envisioned from the PvP mechanics of any of their games. Hope that made sense. Anyhow, another day, another banger!
Yeah, I definitely am more harsh on dueling just because I'm not getting my invasion fix the way I was in Elden Ring, so any time someone tries to turn an invasion into a duel I tend to get frustrated. I like dueling a lot to practice new weapons/ashes/spells just to see how easy/hard they are to counter but for me, the real test will always be "Can this fight 3 guys" and if not, I gotta reconsider. Duels can be fun when properly facilitated and they're a great learning opportunity. I'm just a die-hard invasions first last and always sort of person because I like the skewed odds and the chaos.
The only thing that I hate about Elden ring is the toxic behavior of some players. Whenever I can, I use the taunter’s tongue to get invaded and fight in a 1 v 1 like in old souls game, just because I think it’s nice to fight outside the arena and I like to give the invader a chance to fight in an honest 1 v 1 without being afraid of getting ganked by 3 people all at once, I believe that for someone this can be a breath of fresh air. But sometimes I got invaded by people that abuse of broken builds and ashes of war just because they wanted to win at all cost a 1 v 1 for then teabagging or throwing fetid pot. This kind of things makes me want to play pve for the rest of the evening, the point is that by doing this I am probably giving satisfaction to some people that enjoy making other players rage. It’s not about hiding behind the “get good” phrase, it’s about be kind with others.
true but the invaders goal is to kill the host.. that already makes it hard to be friendly :D but i get ya, some ppl turned into bots. not able to read the room anymore. although invaders have to face the most busted stuff in the game anyway.. its hard as an invader to be friendly if 90% of the time he gets ganked to hell
@@junoglrr9119lets be real here. People choose to act like total as#h0les and like a loser. I have experienced this community for a long time and i can tell how much such things are rooted into the community and just human behaviur. And the greatest joy in these games will always be putting these people in their place. But it can be pretty stressing to do it over and over again, especially nowadays in elden ring since the system rewards skill least than ever. These people complaining about invaders have no idea how easy they have it compared to the past and yet they still hate on the red bad man. Skill and knowledge were everything in older games. They are still fairly important now but more than ever nowadays a casual player can manage by sheer numbers,luck and spam win against a veteran. I speak for ds1 and ds3 and for those games against a veteran you would not ever have a chance. Both in skill and build making.
@@fangrowls6336 i think the majority of random players actually enjoy the pvp. since you get soo many players waiting for an invader show up to steamroll them. they only hate it and want to get rid of it if they die.
I think one small advantage that invaders have is preparations , they are ready to fight other players and their builds reflect that , where a lot of coop players just wanna PVE and thus make their build around fighting NPCs and bosses not other players That is why personally as a player that loves to coop and help randoms i always make sure that my build can both handle PVE and PVP "I do not believe in quickswapping from inventory btw , I don't chnage my weapons or other stuff if we get invaded , all my tools are already equipped"
I think that's a fair point, though I do find these games do a decent job of making a lot of the gear both PVE/PVP viable. I also think it's worth considering a player shouldn't be necessarily rewarded for choosing to not prepare for PVP knowing it's a part of the game, especially if they want to interact with multiplayer. Sort of the same idea as not being able to fight a certain type of enemy, it's just having a hole in your build and that's something I think people should factor in when build-crafting. I actually also strongly prefer to not hotswap. It's one thing if I'm out of combat, essentially an escape and regear, but in a fight I find it very immersion-breaking. I get that it's a high skill effort and I appreciate when people can do it well, I just like the idea that I have the stuff I brought during the fight and not assume I have infinite pockets.
I agree with almost everything you said ^^ Aside from the comments on most weapons and i am gonna also talk about spells too being decent in pvp , tbh its pretty obvious that most of the weapons and spells are made with PVE in mind mostly When you compare someone using gear that isnt very good in pvp to someone with gear that is more reliable in PVP the difference is quite insane
It comes down to this simply put, you cannot control how people will play the game. Toxic behavior has ALWAYS existed to different degree in all of these games for over a decade. Skilled players are better at the end of the day and numbers can equalize. The concept of "fun" is subjective when it comes to all game modes. Invaders are the bad guys and that's ok. These game modes are not going away either, it is what makes these games live past their prime. Period.
I do hope you're right. I'm terrified of FromSoft diminishing invasions further than they already have in the next title. Without covenants or invasion zones, they haven't given us much to chew on and it'll likely be years before we get a replacement.
The odds that a player just going through the game is going to be anywhere as prepared as a willful invader is the issue, not skill. An invader will come in with a complete build, max'd items for the level range they intend to invade, the perfect physick flask, max flasks for healing, all the buffs and consumables they want etc. They are just likely to win. Especially when you consider that all the enemy AI is on their side. Still watching the video but this is my opinion on pvp in general. I use a taunter's tongue and allow myself to be invaded when not in the arena, but it doesnt change the truth of what I said. Most players getting invaded are nowhere near prepared for a fight.
I've made a video centered around preparedness and advantages that touches on this issue. Long/short of it, invaders will be outnumbered so it's in their clear interest to come as prepared as possible given the situation, and that may or may not be enough to balance a fight. Fairness, however, is a more complicated metric, as is likelihood of victory. It is likely a player who is progressing through the game will have less preparedness than an invader who has finished their playthrough. The game is set up to function as such, as the only alternative would be for players to lure invaders once they've finished progressing (ganking) or for the invader to invade before their character is complete, halting their own progress. None of that is to say that's fair or unfair, it's just how the game works. If the invader weren't more prepared than the host, the odds of 2v1 or 3v1 suggest they are far more likely to lose, not to mention all the other nuances of matchmaking. In any case, what you're saying isn't wrong but I would probably not agree that it's an issue that invaders are more prepared. That's sort of the fun of being an invader and the danger of being invaded, with the invader trying to stack as many advantages as they can to counter a host and their cooperators. It's an invasion, after all, not a duel. Even-odds fights are facilitated through a completely different set of systems via Red Summon Sign and the colosseum.
@@emotionaljonxvx The part where you lose me is that you're not really bringing up the fact that its not a 2 or 3 v 1. It's a 2 or 3 v 100 if you count the enemies in the zone that the invader can and will use to their further advantage. I don't know how to keep things fun for an invader. I'm not trying to suggest that. I'm just saying that the reason most people take issue with being invaded is because they are not able to even stand a chance in most cases. For example, we both love ChaseTheBro's pvp invasion content. However, often in his videos he'll say something like "The host needs more health" or "invest in HP" etc. because he is surprised he is literally 1 and 2 shotting the host. Well, that's likely because the host hasn't finished their build, and so their health pool is just naturally going to be smaller. Couple that with them not having all the consumables and buffs to further increase their defense, and it's no wonder so many hosts die in one or two hits with any meta build. It'd be one thing if the host was stronger and the 3 being invaded were just fighting him without having already expended their resources or needing to contually expend their resources traversing the level. That is not the case though. Like you said, it's not a duel. So the host is at a very big disadvantage when their weapon deals 50 damage to the invader and he can one-shot them with the 12 weapons he has maxed out. I mean even in pvp with a meta build and 60 vigor I still get pretty much 1 or 2 shot from time to time. TLDR In my opinion the game isn't balanced in a way that really allows a host to fight off a well-prepared invader. It's more akin to dead by daylight's asymmetrical setup than one where you can win with sheer skill and force of arms. I'm not an invader though. Do invaders die more often or kill more often?
@@Timetiger It's a complicated thing for sure, but overall the enemies in the level aren't exactly all that helpful in a lot of scenarios. For example, any large creature can hit invaders as well as hosts, so invaders don't always want to be near them. Weapon level upgrade is also factored when matchmaking, so an invader can't have much higher upgrades than the host. The differences in damage are (when present) usually going to come down to build optimization. Hosts have a whole slew of other advantages to help compensate for their assumed unpreparedness, such as access to rune arc boosts and are almost guaranteed to have a level advantage. Their cooperators can also have every single bit of preparedness that an invader has and they have the added benefit of not being able to hit each other. Even still, two unprepared cooperators aren't exactly likely to win against a veteran invader, though that is where a lot of skill and prep come into play. It's not so much a problem (imo) as it is a feature of the game. If you get killed because you weren't prepared or skilled enough, that's a good learning opportunity. On the whole, the system isn't exactly balanced but that's sort of the point. It's lopsided PVP and it makes it a lot more interesting. Which way it tilts is contextual. I'd recommend giving invasions a shot some time just to get some perspective on what it's like. If for no other reason, it can be a lot of fun and can really open up the game for you.
As a primarily PvE player myself and Fromsoft vet(Been playing since 2015) I hated invasions at first as I also thought they were unfair. But over the past 9 nine years I started to get better at dealing with invaders while still not a pvp expert I do have enough experience now to kill invaders half the time but I still die as well. I just quit caring and fight invaders if I get invaded.
It's definitely an acquired taste. I used to hate them back in the Dark Souls 1 days but mostly because I just couldn't figure out how any part of the game worked. Once I got into the rhythm invading became the most engaging part of the experience. I know people don't always go in that direction but I really want to encourage people to give it their best shot.
For everything that Elden Ring does to plague our pvp wet dreams, it did a great job nullifying the “invasions are unfair” arguement. Like you’ve said, if you wanna play pve with an unfair advantage (coop) there will be a price to pay. The fallen leaves tell a story. And that story is, if you don’t want any challenge ever, I hear Diablo 4 is still operational
10:06 You CAN select regions. I do this alot. Invaders can select Near (Nearby only) or Far ( Both Near and Far). So If you want to invade At Castle Morne for example, just go to a site of grace there and select Near to only invade in that legacy dungeon. Even in the open world going to whatever grace you want to invade around select NEAR and You will within a hand full of graces. Also, Far can be regen selectable in its own way as well. You only invade where your character has been. So for example you can just avoid places to invade by never going to them on your invader build. Not sure if that resets on New game plus but Ill try. I love this about ER. I can roll play in certain regions as an invader or host. I find gankers as a blue and then when I get back to my own world I just fast travel to a grace nearby and challenge them by invading nearby and I almost always find the host (Instantly if they are taunters tongued) and its on! Love your videos as usual. Thank you for spreading perspective my friend.
Ah, yeah. When I said regions I actually meant like geographical regions (North America, Europe, Asia, etc.) rather than the in-game areas. A lot of latency issues are due to high ping which is caused by numerous factors but distance is a big one. If you fight people on the other side of the world, they're pretty much guaranteed to have much higher latency and thus a less reliable connection. But you are absolutely correct in the near/far options. If only Elden Ring allowed for something where you could invade by in-game regions such as Limgrave only or Caelid only, rather than by just nearby graces.
@@TheAzul_Indigo The only region the game considers is Japan and not Japan. Unless they changed something in the background from Dark Souls 3, it's a setting just for toggling Japanese play.
I do know that the new crop of souls players have totally ruined the culture of invading and especially duels. No bowing, no greetings, just immediate spamming. Guys used to stand by and let one on ones take place and then they would get thier turn. Fight clubs used to be areans of honor and dignity. I miss the old ways. I still come across it but it used to be a given. Of course none or these traditions applied to magic users. Wizards get no mercy, no respect.
Man I love your videos and they make me think, plus you are one of the few youtubers that I go running to see your videos immediately after they come out, I hope you continue uploading many more videos on these interesting topics I will be ready to see them
i love fighting invaders, but if my years helping friends with this game are anything to go by, i think people's only actual problem with invaders is that they want to co-op without PVP. that's not our world, obviously, but it is a shame that there's no place for those players in the vanilla experience. every other argument, valid or not, sane or not, i think stems from that frustration.
It's a very reasonable thing to cause frustration and I feel for them in a way. At the same time, practically every single other game in the genre caters to that sort of experience and it feels a little strange to me when people want that for a game that has an alternative experience built directly in. It's one of those things where I get it and I don't. I'll just try to convince them otherwise I suppose
Some invaders want to fight the players fairly, and some want to murder them and fuck up their day. Anyone who gives up on duels isn't invading because they like pvp. If they liked pvp they'd still be duelling, and they'd bow and show etiquette in an invasion. They like the buzz they get from attacking people who they have their hands full with a scion or a bunch of rats or some minors. Everything else is justification. But you do you
I think that's a very specific way to look at invasions but I hear you. Duels and etiquette sort of go against the whole thing for me, but people can absolutely do those things if they want to. I just think if you restrict invasions to the idea of a duel or any other "fair" 1v1 type scenario, you're sort of ignoring all the other mechanics at play.
I do believe that the average invader does have a slight skill advantage over the average pve player. Whether they’ve been at it since Demon’s Souls or a new player, they’re always having more exposure to fighting other players, typically while outnumbered as well. They also have the added benefit of not being able to be targeted by enemies in a notoriously difficult game, as well as (by merit of exposure to the invasion experience and past playthroughs) a better working knowledge of enemy placement and other hazards in the level. Being outnumbered also forces them to think more strategically, so they’re better at resource management, splitting the host from his buddies, and using the element of surprise. I believe Saint Riot put it best. “This is where an invader shines; in a single, beautiful moment of absolute fucking chaos.”
Very often the case and a well-made point. I think the only real difference between a bad invader and a good one is time. It's definitely a path that leads to skill almost invariably because it demands the most of the player. I really wish everyone saw the merits, even if they don't want to participate themselves.
@@emotionaljonxvx it actually translates into being a better pve player as well. You become more aware of enemy placements, which can help you develop strategies to overcome difficult encounters. Sometimes you’ll even see your invasion victims take on the enemies in really efficient or creative ways
I think the big issue with invasions in Elden ring, which was also an issue in previous games but more prevalent now is the matchmaking system for invasions. Too many times am I on a fresh low level just hit church Elleh and summoned a friend in to be invaded by a person that's not only levels higher but has a complete kitted character with pvp meta/cheese. It also doesn't help the insane amount of skips in the game that allow this so someone can make a twink character, do all the skips, then still be low level while having a full set up except for maybe a 4th talisman slot if they don't just have other summons come in and kill those bosses required. Matchmaking on both ends is terrible for either side. It's just sad that most invaders that are "skilled" are just abusing exploits like the serpent hunter chainsaw, or being able to cast lightning incants faster than what can be reacted too due to a little exploit...or doing other exploits for various effects. Personally I feel it's ridiculous cause you don't really get something serious out of invades that would constitute cheesing invades. Wouldn't you know those that don't cheese or exploit put up a legit fight and will have a pretty good fight even if it means I lose. It ain't about losing to me cause I get it, when playing online and with others you set yourself up for invades. My issue is the matchmaking/exploits/multitude of skips to set your character your up to be fully kitted and ready to stomp out players that aren't there or nowhere near there. They need to fix that matchmaking where not only does it work on upgrades but make it match the amount of talismans and make it so it's either same level or make the level difference even tighter than what it currently is cause a level 9 character shouldn't be getting invaded by a level 20 or whatever many levels higher that kitted while the level 9 player is fresh at church of elleh
Before anyone says anything yeah I'm advocating for making invades closer in level/set up more so than fair cause let's face it invades aren't fair for either side but there should be a better matchmaking system than what's currently in place cause not everyone is summoning in pvp gods that are waiting for smoke. Some players are just pve only but want to play with friends that are also pve only of course they're both gonna do bad in pvp especially if they only build for pve
So I think I get the essence of what you're getting at. Twinks can easily stomp new/ungeared players and that's something new players aren't going to appreciate. Invaders can cheese and cheat and exploit and they do so at an anecdotally high rate in your experience, which isn't necessarily wrong. I will say, twinking is something that can be done on both ends, not to mention overleveled summons, and exploits are obviously available to everyone. As far as invasion level ranges go, you can only invade 90% below your level so if you get invaded by someone while you're level 9, they can only be level 10 or lower. And a level 10 invader is capable of invading up to at least 31, and a level 31 host can have non-scaled phantoms up to at least 44 (downscaled phantoms can be any level of course) and there will be at least 2 if not 3 of them. So a lot of invaders in that range are going to fight both brand new characters co-oping at Elleh and gankers holding out at Stormveil. I've made twinks in this game and I'm currently (in this video even) running a level 20 +5/+2 character who only uses Limgrave gear and upgrades to try and give people a more authentic experience. I certainly have a great time fighting players who are just going through the game at-level but any time I encounter a gank or overleveld phantom, it's rough. Not to say any point you're making isn't true of your experience, just trying to give my perspective.
I definitely was more on board with this section of the series. I wasnt even aware of complaints of invaders having skill at the game was part of it. This is somethig that doesn't bother in ER or other from games. (except in Demon's Souls with the final boss in Tower of Latria. In that specific case, it guaranteed that long time players of great skill would always become a challenge and new players trying to finish the game for the first time wouldnt be able to catch up to while stuck with 1v1 duels.) I've always recognized that statistically the invader is at disadvantage against 3 coop teams, and have to rely on environment to make up for their disadvantage, even with high skill at the game. I've not heard this Twink slang used before, so maybe that shows how outside these debates around the game are. Personally, I would say that choosing to be a low level player with high-tuned gear goes a but against the spirit of being an invader. Being placed in unpredictable and disadvantaged positions is what makes winning an invasion enjoyable for me. It does develop skill that otherwise wouldnt exist. To try to circumvent facing other skilled players by playing dice over finding new players to invade just wouldnt hit thay engagement for me at all. Is the joy there winning for its own sake? Hm Elden Ring has far more advantage that can be gain from environment than other games. Too much use of environment has resulted in long periods of time just running across the map. To the point that I always carry a pocket spear and spectral lance with the bow talismans. Pretty sure this is the fastest/furthest projectile in the game. Beat 6 fleeing invaders with that just last night. Sadly, I was also sent home twice with coop being cancelled because the host didnt want to chase an invader fleeing across the map. People are starting to catch wise that the host can do this to cancel unfun or tedious invaders. (For anyone who wants to know how to dodge that, even with the tracking. You either need to sprint horizontally to the spectral lance, or dodge into the direction of the curve.)
I find the whole conversation to be vast and intriguing. Invasions are such a specific type of gameplay that people have lots of very conflicting feelings about them, often having never even heard the other side. I'm just trying my best to give people as much perspective as I can and hopefully bridge some gaps where possible. Thanks for the comment
You made good points about those with skills in PvP whether or not as an invader. Mostly when I invade, and find a group of players perhaps ready to gank with very cheesy and cheapshot ranged spamming to make it unavoidable, the best option is to retreat from that. Having actual skill and ganks by certain player groups are complicated depending on the players in question.
It's a complicated tapestry to be sure. I've had a lot of people over the years tell me invaders are always gonna have this huge advantage because they're so much more skilled but it's the sort of thing where anyone who has spent the time to invade knows just how often you'll run into a gank or even just regular cooperators who are clearly on the level and how difficult it can be. Can't blame people who have never experienced it, can only try to give them some perspective.
@@emotionaljonxvx maybe. There’s really no guarantee whether an invader is skillful. The advantage the invaders have is skill, true, as well as having the host’s enemies with said invaders if they’re not eradicated first. That said, the host and furled fingers usually have the most advantages in skill and/or by simply out powering the invader they find. In my experience, chances of being ganked in invasions are high, 9 out of 10 times. As I said, it is complicated depending on the players themselves, and how those players behave in-game. It’s about showing good sportsmanship at least through a bow or some generous gesture for trying.
Invaders could also be seen as just "really tough minibosses with good AI." They don't have some of the OP attacks that bosses do, and are balanced by their healing + knowledge. I'm in my first play through of ds3, it's my 2nd souls game after ds1. I was in Grand Archives and was getting stonewalled by the NPC trio on the exterior, before I said, "f*** it, and" used chameleon to sneak most of the way past them until they aggroed, allowing me to separate them using the elevator shortcut. Once that occurred I took them out one at a time b/c I guess their AI didn't know how to manipulate elevators. It was a somewhat fulfilling victory, but still felt a little hollow because I didn't really learn the gank mechanics and just used the level layout to my advtg. Now, imagine a player or team of players in their position who used the elevator shortcut properly. The npc trio turns into an entirely different kind of challenge, from a puzzle boss to a gank. Still hard, but in a different way, almost no different from the other kinds of challenges the game throws.
I don't always watch philosophising on a ridiculously niche issue, but when I do, it's Emotional Jon. "A build is representative of the character; skill of the player." I do like that. Nicely phrased.
Imo, skill is one of the less important issues in PVP. It doesn’t matter how good the invader is in a blender. Sure, hot swapping to stormhawk is a helpful skill, but a good supply of consumables, a ranged option, and a knowledge of the map are way more important when it comes to winning an invasion.
Very much so. The best duelist isn't necessarily any good at invasions, as they call for different considerations. Knowing where you're going is just as important as knowing how to quickswap to an appropriate weapon.
Jon just for you I’m gonna protect the erdtree sentinel with dual lighting naginatas at level 1 to make player Git Gud and stop cheesing the first boss they can encounter with 2 phantoms, I love your videos keep the good work
@@emotionaljonxvx almost everytime i see a wretch low level player i just equip my club and unequip all armor, wretch for life, i love your videos, do you stream? or do you have something so i can donate to you? you are really the best on yt rn tbh
@@Naim11443 I appreciate that! This whole thing has been going a little faster than I had hoped for so I still need to get memberships/patreon set up. I just want to make sure I'm giving people value for whatever it is. I've been considering streaming for a while and I'm leaning in that direction, maybe doing it once a week. Hopefully, I'll have them all setup before too long and then I can become a full-time bastard man.
@@emotionaljonxvx i really love your videos, they are really unique i have not seen people talk about twinks or the pvp in a more phiolosphical way and the way you explain it is great, be sure to let us know when you are gonna stream and when to donate so i dont miss it, i dont really donate and shit but you are the real deal, be quick tho, use the acceleration your channel is having
Call it shallow or callous on my part but I really wish this game was less accessible. The wave of invasion hate from a new player base that has no knowledge or appreciation for the existing culture of souls games is proof to me that sometimes gatekeeping is good, actually.
It's a tough thing to quantify but I understand where you're coming from. I want the games to be as accessible as possible because I want more people to play. I just wish they had taken efforts to better involve people in PVP on every end, instead of making it some obscure mechanic that new players would have to google to figure out. No covenants, no invasion zones, no real rewards, it's all such a bad effort where the games could just be way more inviting about their PVP and actually encourage people to do it. Instead, we're left with invaders who have very little incentive to stick with the game and co-opers who can't stand the idea of having their overly-long game interrupted for any reason.
yea surely the gatekeeping isnt gonna be cringe when you do it. obviously the thousands of other attempts to gatekeep stuff was cringe only because people werent trying hard enough. definitely not because the concept is dead in the water. surely.
I think you mean the multiplayer’s accessibility, not the game itself. The multiplayer isn’t going to improve just because Malenia or Margit or whomever becomes just a little more difficult to defeat. I would be interested to see what would change if a new player could only participate in summoning other people after some kind of roadblock. Maybe they have to fight and kill three NPC invaders, or maybe they have to be RL 50, or maybe they have to kill at least one shardbearer.
@@Zythryl No, I mean making the game as a whole including pve less accessible. Between spirit summons, password phantoms and busted ashes of war the game has more difficulty settings than ever before. The people allured by this are the same people who don't know about the existing pvp culture and have no appreciation for it and think invaders are as bad as serial killers. How many changes do you have to make to a game for it to have mass appeal before it no longer represents the qualities that attracted it's original audience? The new generation of players doesn't want pvp, it doesn't want to improve at the game by making more restrictions on iterative playthroughs, it doesn't like the mechanics that separate souls games from the over saturated ARPG market and that fucking sucks.
Last night I invaded like 35ish times, and I think I won about half of them. I have to disagree about preparation not being a "skill". Knowing what tool to use require situational awareness, and how to use that effectively requires practice and quick thinking. Hard swapping is also a skill to develop, and a big part of it is inventory management. So many of my wins came from just knowing how to use waves of darkness to clear overly aggressive attackers, and then switching to chase down to mop up. Map knowledge also help me get to favorable mob positions. The damage is so damn high in this game that prep alone can win you the game without even getting the fundamentals such as spacing, because often one good ash, bow shot or a mob as distractions wins you the invasion.
I do definitely consider preparation a skill and something that works best with practice. I just wanted to separate that there is a difference between bringing the right equipment and knowing how to use it effectively. A lot of people bring the right tools for the job but don't use them well, and that's where skill is the difference. The focus for this video was more directed at the idea that invaders are definitively more skilled and that builds/preparedness are representative of that. Plenty of invaders wandering around with "saw it on RUclips" builds and have no idea how to use them properly, but to the untrained eye it may look identical. I definitely agree with you though, sorry if that didn't come across.
I don't remember seing invaders with overpowered weapons while progressing the game. But just yesterday, my cooperator spawned with the Elden Beast's sword and I was level 30. I was confused because I thought at least the match making was supposed to take levels and gears in consideration.
It's a really simple but sort of unintuitive system where it only accounts for maximum upgrade level and character level. You can use any weapon or ash of war or whatever so long as you have the stats so long as its upgrade level is at or below your maximum. Lots of people keep themselves low level and low upgrade to play at lower level with a more robust character. Basically, they're twinks, except you don't necessarily need someone else to give you the gear. You can just play through the game and if you're good enough, you can get through the whole thing at low level and with low upgrade gear.
@@emotionaljonxvx Ok got it. In this case I'm pretty sure that was someone who had the weapon from someone else. They didn't play like someone who knew what they were doing, and why coop with randoms with that type of build anyway? I guess my point is that I see more cooperaters than invaders with high level gears in early game.
matchmaking doesnt account for summoned players.. you can summon your max level friend that has everything in the game on your rl30 build... and no, downscaling doesnt properly work so those phantoms be one shotting 90% of invaders showing up
@@junoglrr9119 What about invaders? I tried invading again yesterday because Vare gave me bloody finders but I was level 50. I had mostly 2v1 fights with cooperators using rivers of blood and end game AOE spells. All but 1they were hanging out in open swamps with no enemy to help me. I put up a fight regardless then they proceed to tea bag me... That can't all be people who hate invaders, they just get a kick out of ruining people's fun. Griefers.
@@fredbyoutubing they dont hate incaders. Well maybe a few but its just really people liking the pvp or just simply ganking. See, you might read some comments sometimes about how certain people hate pvp and want it removed from souls games but only if they loose to the invader otherwise they really liking pvp
Skill is interested in how it's viewed depends on the outcomes of whoever has gained sufficiency in it to the one viewing. If someone helping has skill, it's great. If someone hindering or attacking has it, then it's bad. Anything that helps one play the game better (better, meaning the player has an easier time) could be considered to be a skill. Skill is also not something some people "just have" or others "do not have". And due to there only being a set amount of tools in the box, while the combination of them is vast, it is finite. Anything I can do, you can do too. Oddly, skill is treated as less of something to develop and more equivalent to just something people have. This leads to interesting things in regard to invasions. The group of newcomer people trying them out easily get sidelined as it's inconvenient to address as being a thing. I'm one such person - never played a fromsoft game before. I find, so often, the conversation seems to center invasions as only something people who have played souls games for decades partake in doing. As opposed to there also being plenty of new people giving them a whirl. So does this idea "invaders are all just ultra skilled players" mean that any newcomer to invasions suddenly is a top tier player? I've fought against enough fledgling invaders as a co-op summon to understand many are still working on figuring things out. Just as much, as a beginner invader, I've gotten the stuffing beat out of me due to still needing to work on my tactical and situational awareness. It is not the domain of ancient hardcore vets alone - but many different skill tiers and such people. This is why I find it odd to assume invaders are in it out of malice for the real world players. It's very exciting to invade (and to be invaded, as all scramble to be ready with the hunt now officially afoot), and especially for a beginner it's a very powerful feeling to be on the hunt, where even if the hunter's objective is to kill the host, said host and their buddies can easily also put the invader down. Skill does weird things when combined with the subjectivity of fun. Is it really that bad to get shown one's skills could use some work by losing, in a game where that's kinda part of the deal? Never mind that nobody can always win. And even in a great game like Elden Ring there will always be a moment where despite having fun, the person playing finds a sore spot, or one instance where they feel they are not having it. What is the difference between getting devoured by Rykard for three hours before finally turning him into a pair of shoes, and an invader at random showing up to send one to their previous checkpoint? I suppose, again, it turns to the invader being piloted by a player. And how it causes less difficult emotions to get made into snake munchies by a boss for three hours than to every once in a blue moon get pummeled by another player. Git gud mentality seems to have caused many to think having skill is a virtue and those that have it are the best. Rather than viewing it as something to develop by just engaging in and with a hobby. I bet most players have gotten mocked with "just git gud" when they are trying to vent or discuss difficult emotions about a boss. And as a result, are quick to keep the chain going rather than just stopping the cycle and allowing people in a public space to talk about something they found infuriating without getting "git gudded". And it might have fostered an environment where people do not want to be shown to be lacking skill by another player, because such makes them feel they were proven to be without skill - and thus are prone to getting bullied again by people eager to do what was done to them onto others. In a sense, it makes people defensive because nobody wants to get bullied. And this can cause lashing out, like how Elden Ring invasions seem to do.
Well said and well thought! It's a whole mess of assumptions and opinions and heated arguments and belittling tension. Invasions spart animosity and I get why people hate it. Me going through all the different little arguments and niches of how people deride others for participating in the game is just how I like to cope. One day, I hope to have convinced enough people to rethink they're perspective enough to make a real change in how the bulk of the community addresses invasions. I need FromSoftware to pay more attention to multiplayer and give people a better long-term game experience. I hope the community can come together to ask for that on a unified front, but we just aren't there yet. Maybe one day.
Invading can b tough and kind of bs but there is no doubt that keeping at it improves your skills in the game. I wanna get super good and dominate any 3 player group eventually! Thanks for the inspo
Good at PVE doesn’t equal good at PVP and most people who like invasions have more time spent playing it and I’m a casual play player who likes cooperative play and don’t want to spend my free time playing the game in a way I don’t enjoy. I’m still going to play and just try to overcome the invasions that I typically don’t enjoy. ✌🏼
Skill is knowledge. More knowledge will always make you more skilled. Your skill limit is essentially your knowledge limit. Unless you happen to have lobster claws instead of hands, then knowledge probably won't help you. You have to be capable of adapting that knowledge, which itself is a skill. An invader, as in one who invades as an aspect of the game engaged with the most, will have a knowledge advantage. Not only in knowing PvP builds, but also common PvE builds. An invader knows what they're most likely to face and thus build to counter it. A PvE player doesn't. They also have a better handle on latency, they learn to recognise the delay and are quicker at adapting to it.
I have played souls games from Fromsoft since 2009 and invasions have grown tiresome imo. Now I know the people that enjoy the mechanic will have something negative to reply, but invasions in Demon's souls and DS3 were the best imo. My reasoning for this is because in Demon's souls when invaded the invader had to hunt you down but also had to contend with enemies in the stages. Which they could run past or fight through, their choice, but you could not just hide behind all enemies. In DS3 after 2 or more times of being killed by invaders you cou pick up an item in firelink shrine, which if used when invaded, that could make enemies no longer protect an invader but turn on him. Which was good since some areas you could be invaded by up to 3 people. I think these 2 ways of handling invasions overall was best. Both sides of the equation had a degree of unpredictablity which made those who don't enjoy invasions have a plan b instead of being forced offline or unalive/ember state themselves if invasions were not enjoyable for them to partake in.
I think there's a lot of room to add more mechanics in invasions to make them more dynamic. I think Elden Ring has one of the worst systems, not necessarily mechanically but in how it only allows you to have one sort of experience. It leaves an incentive void and really discourages people who aren't already well-acclimated from participating. I wish they'd be a little more diligent about how they handle multiplayer but so far it seems they're more interested in horses.
Every new big game from fromsoft has its growing pains, not to mention this game was especially hyped by people. Leading to alot of people who don’t particularly “get” how fromsoft and by extension its comunity rolls. Some people will eventually git gud and will be defending fromsoft with their next entry. And those who don’t (like always) won’t be missed. With the best way of understanding the “dark soul’s experience” is that dying is part of the fun. With lazy purple from tf2 describing it best - “who do you think is gonna make it? The guy throwing a tantrum and calling you a hacker or the guy who just had his head blown off and is taking notes?”
Typing here to signal boost because that is how this shit is working today. Regarding input: I'd like a video addressing the various aspects it takes to be a good coop player from the view point of an invader. I like all roles, got some more of that git gut attitude from your videos and promise to try to love those ganks.
@@bobsinclair8990 Maybe! I think it's something where RUclips doesn't like to tell people much other than what to try. Honestly, I think they might not even know as it's all just algorithmic nonsense.
@@emotionaljonxvx There are some interesting articles about how Disney & Co do their bot farms. Assuming they don't just fleece their contractor they should know a thing or two about what works.
There are absolutely idiot invaders and people who are cosplay or greatsword mash invaders. They entirely rely on oneshots or parries or play exclusively low level. imo the only skillful invaders are those who can survive 3v1s consistently on multiple latencies at META LEVEL like og1donut, chanchomcfly, aylidh, veill etc. That being said even if there is skill like spacing and risk assessment, one mage essentially negates that since they can just do damage to you at no risk to themselves with the most forgiving spacing especially if they have lightroll. They can also have max level phantoms as well which are insanely unfair with dragon bullshit plus optimal nagis armor and moonveil and full heal. At this point the invader has to rely completely on knowledge checks like map knowledge aka cat ring drops or level design or some form of aow oneshot to even have a chance at winning. Game knowledge is definitely what defines the skilled invader from an r/badredman buckler shield babies first invasion. and those people i mentioned earlier have extensive knowledge on ds3 invasions or have invaded in ds3 for thousands of hours.
Predicting a parry* on latency without spamming it is definitely a real skill, but I agree knowledge checks are most important at all levels of invasions.
I don't think it takes much skill to best noobs to pvp when they are clueless how pvp mechanics work. Picking on noobs shows how unskilled a person is. Won't improve by picking on the weak
If you fight enough you can just know they took the damage and run away till the lag kicks in ...I've literally one shot someone and just ran across the area and waited for them to catch up
In my last vid I had a guy that took damage 10-15 seconds after dealt and it was something special. Definitely could have played more carefully but I'm just too aggressive for my own good.
invaders also seem skilled because roughly half of them are literally cheating. infinite stamina, infinite heals, infinite physick flasks, etc. beyond annoying. the dinosaur client-based hosting needs to go.
Okay so, most people that complay about fairness should know, you are trying to make the game easier by getting friends, this is the way to balance that out, so either you try to improve and do it by yourself, or you face the consequences. Now if you complay about how invasions are unfair and you are the one invading... Dont talk to me please just dont, once i killed a guy (me beign a hunter), the guy was using crystallian SpearS with Sleep, i killed him by reacting to the cheap tactic with a cheap tactic of my own (spam low cost low dmg incatations while the host attacked him), We got him, and then he went out of his way to insult me through Steam. If you are like that, just dont do invasions bro, i swear you can have fun by yourself in this game
As much as ganks can be ridiculous, it's completely fair for people to do it. Invaders, at least good ones, know and appreciate that risk. It's an easy thing to work around and it can be a lot of fun to mess them up. Plus, as an invader, you're supposed to have at least a mechanical disadvantage so any uphill nature to the battle is better embraced than rejected.
I believe that skill should always be the top factor in a game of any genre. I would host endless 3v3s in DS3 for about 2 years and barely die. On top of that i could use any weapon and be an asset. Elden ring is riddled with gimmicks and the sole focus is build setup so now we have these meta goons with high poise off hand hand axes using flaming strike and thats it. If you dont use that then you are at a disadvantage. (Or some similar setup) Then they think they are good. I actually got hatemail from one of these losers the other day. Pathetic
A lot of people want to gatekeep and boot lick fromsoft....the pvp is just bad and annoying, the fights are a waste of time and the game needs better balancing... bloodborne was the only good invasion based game and the pvp was good, a fight felt like a fight...elden ring, 😂 yall get lucky making one hit using a cheap build....from soft needs more things to make the system better sure....but the game is annoying BECAUSE of you meta players...that game is too big to be wasting my time because you didnt know how to better cure your boredom.....cant yall like make a group thing?
Most invaders would get moped up by an average dualist thats why they spend their time fighting unfair fights against unprepared players, so they can feel better about being average. Then they say funny stuff like invaders are always the most skilled players 😂
Pack in the mail it’s gone She like how I smell cologne Just signed a deal I’m on Yeah yeah Also it’s because invaders always have more playtime and they’ve typically been playing since at least ds3 if they invade
I think it’s cool people like pvp but it’s not for me I usually just disconnect or jump off the nearest ledge then resummon my friends until I get invaded again then I repeat.
Tons of potential with this channel. Algorithm is getting to me and I only watch Chasethebro for PVP content. Get on that grind for the DLC, this was a really interesting video, and I think your view/sub counts might skyrocket if you put out similar calibre content. The way Fromsoft designs their multiplayer experience is so unique - coopers aren't directly asking to get invaded, so you are far more of a random boss encounter rather than just another PVP opponent like in duels or any other competitive multiplayer mode in any video game. The dynamic is completely different. You learn to relish being the "bad guy," "ruining" other people's fun by killing them just like a difficult PvE enemy, such that they learn from their death all the same. Viewers like polish more than anything. One thing I think you would benefit from is a planned solo intro or one with a friend to introduce the ideas you're talking about when its appropriate. A cheat code to getting people to stick is the music you choose in that moment as well, just throw in some recognizable ambient Skyrim music or something to get people talking, trigger their nostalgia. Seriously man, nicely done. Keep it up.
Invaders tend to be more skilled simply because they spend more time fighting other players with the odds stacked against them. It's like swinging a bat with a weight on it all day, and then taking it off.
There's also that by nature, the weakest invaders are going to get weeded out as they're more likely to quit, while stronger invaders see more success and thus stick around longer.
Definitely a fair point. It's very much a "train under 100x earth's gravity" and then land on Namek type scenario. Suddenly, you're better than any Ginyu gank out there and you're looking to fight.
Even still, a lot of players who do have the requisite skill in PVP choose not to invade because they want the advantage and I think a lot of "regular" players don't get to see that side of invasions because to them it's always veteran v. noob.
You are most certainly my favorite “invasion philosopher” other than the man; the myth; the legend; saint_riot himself. Your thoughts are concise and eloquent and I have thoroughly enjoyed every video you’ve made thus far. Keep up the good work Mr. Jon
Any saint comparisons are high praise and much appreciated. Just trying to bring something worthwhile to the space and it means a lot that it's resonating.
its martyrsbrigade99 2.0
I don't think Duels are boring or useless personally, there is definitely something or two one can learn from the PvP Arena, but my issue is that you can only Duel so much and eventually will hit a plateau where you can not only no longer improve, but also will start to realize how much potential you're missing from skipping Invasions, as they offer the actual intended experience FromSoft envisioned from the PvP mechanics of any of their games. Hope that made sense. Anyhow, another day, another banger!
Yeah, I definitely am more harsh on dueling just because I'm not getting my invasion fix the way I was in Elden Ring, so any time someone tries to turn an invasion into a duel I tend to get frustrated.
I like dueling a lot to practice new weapons/ashes/spells just to see how easy/hard they are to counter but for me, the real test will always be "Can this fight 3 guys" and if not, I gotta reconsider. Duels can be fun when properly facilitated and they're a great learning opportunity. I'm just a die-hard invasions first last and always sort of person because I like the skewed odds and the chaos.
The only thing that I hate about Elden ring is the toxic behavior of some players. Whenever I can, I use the taunter’s tongue to get invaded and fight in a 1 v 1 like in old souls game, just because I think it’s nice to fight outside the arena and I like to give the invader a chance to fight in an honest 1 v 1 without being afraid of getting ganked by 3 people all at once, I believe that for someone this can be a breath of fresh air.
But sometimes I got invaded by people that abuse of broken builds and ashes of war just because they wanted to win at all cost a 1 v 1 for then teabagging or throwing fetid pot.
This kind of things makes me want to play pve for the rest of the evening, the point is that by doing this I am probably giving satisfaction to some people that enjoy making other players rage.
It’s not about hiding behind the “get good” phrase, it’s about be kind with others.
true but the invaders goal is to kill the host.. that already makes it hard to be friendly :D
but i get ya, some ppl turned into bots. not able to read the room anymore.
although invaders have to face the most busted stuff in the game anyway.. its hard as an invader to be friendly if 90% of the time he gets ganked to hell
@@junoglrr9119lets be real here. People choose to act like total as#h0les and like a loser.
I have experienced this community for a long time and i can tell how much such things are rooted into the community and just human behaviur. And the greatest joy in these games will always be putting these people in their place.
But it can be pretty stressing to do it over and over again, especially nowadays in elden ring since the system rewards skill least than ever.
These people complaining about invaders have no idea how easy they have it compared to the past and yet they still hate on the red bad man.
Skill and knowledge were everything in older games. They are still fairly important now but more than ever nowadays a casual player can manage by sheer numbers,luck and spam win against a veteran.
I speak for ds1 and ds3 and for those games against a veteran you would not ever have a chance. Both in skill and build making.
@@fangrowls6336 i think the majority of random players actually enjoy the pvp. since you get soo many players waiting for an invader show up to steamroll them.
they only hate it and want to get rid of it if they die.
@@fangrowls6336 i disagree with ds3 though... imo was more casual friendly then elden ring
I hope this channel blows up, your insight needs to reach more people
I think one small advantage that invaders have is preparations , they are ready to fight other players and their builds reflect that , where a lot of coop players just wanna PVE and thus make their build around fighting NPCs and bosses not other players
That is why personally as a player that loves to coop and help randoms i always make sure that my build can both handle PVE and PVP "I do not believe in quickswapping from inventory btw , I don't chnage my weapons or other stuff if we get invaded , all my tools are already equipped"
I think that's a fair point, though I do find these games do a decent job of making a lot of the gear both PVE/PVP viable. I also think it's worth considering a player shouldn't be necessarily rewarded for choosing to not prepare for PVP knowing it's a part of the game, especially if they want to interact with multiplayer. Sort of the same idea as not being able to fight a certain type of enemy, it's just having a hole in your build and that's something I think people should factor in when build-crafting.
I actually also strongly prefer to not hotswap. It's one thing if I'm out of combat, essentially an escape and regear, but in a fight I find it very immersion-breaking. I get that it's a high skill effort and I appreciate when people can do it well, I just like the idea that I have the stuff I brought during the fight and not assume I have infinite pockets.
I agree with almost everything you said ^^
Aside from the comments on most weapons and i am gonna also talk about spells too being decent in pvp , tbh its pretty obvious that most of the weapons and spells are made with PVE in mind mostly
When you compare someone using gear that isnt very good in pvp to someone with gear that is more reliable in PVP the difference is quite insane
It comes down to this simply put, you cannot control how people will play the game. Toxic behavior has ALWAYS existed to different degree in all of these games for over a decade. Skilled players are better at the end of the day and numbers can equalize. The concept of "fun" is subjective when it comes to all game modes. Invaders are the bad guys and that's ok. These game modes are not going away either, it is what makes these games live past their prime. Period.
I do hope you're right. I'm terrified of FromSoft diminishing invasions further than they already have in the next title. Without covenants or invasion zones, they haven't given us much to chew on and it'll likely be years before we get a replacement.
The odds that a player just going through the game is going to be anywhere as prepared as a willful invader is the issue, not skill. An invader will come in with a complete build, max'd items for the level range they intend to invade, the perfect physick flask, max flasks for healing, all the buffs and consumables they want etc. They are just likely to win. Especially when you consider that all the enemy AI is on their side.
Still watching the video but this is my opinion on pvp in general. I use a taunter's tongue and allow myself to be invaded when not in the arena, but it doesnt change the truth of what I said. Most players getting invaded are nowhere near prepared for a fight.
I've made a video centered around preparedness and advantages that touches on this issue. Long/short of it, invaders will be outnumbered so it's in their clear interest to come as prepared as possible given the situation, and that may or may not be enough to balance a fight. Fairness, however, is a more complicated metric, as is likelihood of victory.
It is likely a player who is progressing through the game will have less preparedness than an invader who has finished their playthrough. The game is set up to function as such, as the only alternative would be for players to lure invaders once they've finished progressing (ganking) or for the invader to invade before their character is complete, halting their own progress.
None of that is to say that's fair or unfair, it's just how the game works. If the invader weren't more prepared than the host, the odds of 2v1 or 3v1 suggest they are far more likely to lose, not to mention all the other nuances of matchmaking.
In any case, what you're saying isn't wrong but I would probably not agree that it's an issue that invaders are more prepared. That's sort of the fun of being an invader and the danger of being invaded, with the invader trying to stack as many advantages as they can to counter a host and their cooperators. It's an invasion, after all, not a duel. Even-odds fights are facilitated through a completely different set of systems via Red Summon Sign and the colosseum.
@@emotionaljonxvx The part where you lose me is that you're not really bringing up the fact that its not a 2 or 3 v 1. It's a 2 or 3 v 100 if you count the enemies in the zone that the invader can and will use to their further advantage. I don't know how to keep things fun for an invader. I'm not trying to suggest that. I'm just saying that the reason most people take issue with being invaded is because they are not able to even stand a chance in most cases.
For example, we both love ChaseTheBro's pvp invasion content. However, often in his videos he'll say something like "The host needs more health" or "invest in HP" etc. because he is surprised he is literally 1 and 2 shotting the host. Well, that's likely because the host hasn't finished their build, and so their health pool is just naturally going to be smaller. Couple that with them not having all the consumables and buffs to further increase their defense, and it's no wonder so many hosts die in one or two hits with any meta build.
It'd be one thing if the host was stronger and the 3 being invaded were just fighting him without having already expended their resources or needing to contually expend their resources traversing the level.
That is not the case though. Like you said, it's not a duel. So the host is at a very big disadvantage when their weapon deals 50 damage to the invader and he can one-shot them with the 12 weapons he has maxed out.
I mean even in pvp with a meta build and 60 vigor I still get pretty much 1 or 2 shot from time to time.
TLDR In my opinion the game isn't balanced in a way that really allows a host to fight off a well-prepared invader. It's more akin to dead by daylight's asymmetrical setup than one where you can win with sheer skill and force of arms.
I'm not an invader though. Do invaders die more often or kill more often?
@@Timetiger It's a complicated thing for sure, but overall the enemies in the level aren't exactly all that helpful in a lot of scenarios. For example, any large creature can hit invaders as well as hosts, so invaders don't always want to be near them.
Weapon level upgrade is also factored when matchmaking, so an invader can't have much higher upgrades than the host. The differences in damage are (when present) usually going to come down to build optimization.
Hosts have a whole slew of other advantages to help compensate for their assumed unpreparedness, such as access to rune arc boosts and are almost guaranteed to have a level advantage. Their cooperators can also have every single bit of preparedness that an invader has and they have the added benefit of not being able to hit each other.
Even still, two unprepared cooperators aren't exactly likely to win against a veteran invader, though that is where a lot of skill and prep come into play. It's not so much a problem (imo) as it is a feature of the game. If you get killed because you weren't prepared or skilled enough, that's a good learning opportunity.
On the whole, the system isn't exactly balanced but that's sort of the point. It's lopsided PVP and it makes it a lot more interesting. Which way it tilts is contextual.
I'd recommend giving invasions a shot some time just to get some perspective on what it's like. If for no other reason, it can be a lot of fun and can really open up the game for you.
I've dabbled in pvp but watching these videos makes me want to play pvp more
As a primarily PvE player myself and Fromsoft vet(Been playing since 2015) I hated invasions at first as I also thought they were unfair. But over the past 9 nine years I started to get better at dealing with invaders while still not a pvp expert I do have enough experience now to kill invaders half the time but I still die as well. I just quit caring and fight invaders if I get invaded.
It's definitely an acquired taste. I used to hate them back in the Dark Souls 1 days but mostly because I just couldn't figure out how any part of the game worked. Once I got into the rhythm invading became the most engaging part of the experience.
I know people don't always go in that direction but I really want to encourage people to give it their best shot.
For everything that Elden Ring does to plague our pvp wet dreams, it did a great job nullifying the “invasions are unfair” arguement. Like you’ve said, if you wanna play pve with an unfair advantage (coop) there will be a price to pay. The fallen leaves tell a story. And that story is, if you don’t want any challenge ever, I hear Diablo 4 is still operational
Invaders definitely seem more skilled than your average non-invading player, but I'm glad for it. They make me want to get better.
10:06 You CAN select regions. I do this alot. Invaders can select Near (Nearby only) or Far ( Both Near and Far). So If you want to invade At Castle Morne for example, just go to a site of grace there and select Near to only invade in that legacy dungeon. Even in the open world going to whatever grace you want to invade around select NEAR and You will within a hand full of graces. Also, Far can be regen selectable in its own way as well. You only invade where your character has been. So for example you can just avoid places to invade by never going to them on your invader build. Not sure if that resets on New game plus but Ill try. I love this about ER. I can roll play in certain regions as an invader or host. I find gankers as a blue and then when I get back to my own world I just fast travel to a grace nearby and challenge them by invading nearby and I almost always find the host (Instantly if they are taunters tongued) and its on! Love your videos as usual. Thank you for spreading perspective my friend.
Ah, yeah. When I said regions I actually meant like geographical regions (North America, Europe, Asia, etc.) rather than the in-game areas. A lot of latency issues are due to high ping which is caused by numerous factors but distance is a big one. If you fight people on the other side of the world, they're pretty much guaranteed to have much higher latency and thus a less reliable connection.
But you are absolutely correct in the near/far options. If only Elden Ring allowed for something where you could invade by in-game regions such as Limgrave only or Caelid only, rather than by just nearby graces.
This is how you target players! I'm tired of random invasions. Ill try this when I get home.
You can actually disable cross regional matchmaking in the online options.
@@TheAzul_Indigo The only region the game considers is Japan and not Japan. Unless they changed something in the background from Dark Souls 3, it's a setting just for toggling Japanese play.
@@emotionaljonxvxthat’s so weird.
I do know that the new crop of souls players have totally ruined the culture of invading and especially duels. No bowing, no greetings, just immediate spamming. Guys used to stand by and let one on ones take place and then they would get thier turn. Fight clubs used to be areans of honor and dignity. I miss the old ways. I still come across it but it used to be a given. Of course none or these traditions applied to magic users. Wizards get no mercy, no respect.
👍👍👍
Lol, I've been here since DS1 and I've never had much patience for fight clubs. But I did use to at least bow in some way when I could still 1v1.
Man I love your videos and they make me think, plus you are one of the few youtubers that I go running to see your videos immediately after they come out, I hope you continue uploading many more videos on these interesting topics I will be ready to see them
i love fighting invaders, but if my years helping friends with this game are anything to go by, i think people's only actual problem with invaders is that they want to co-op without PVP. that's not our world, obviously, but it is a shame that there's no place for those players in the vanilla experience. every other argument, valid or not, sane or not, i think stems from that frustration.
It's a very reasonable thing to cause frustration and I feel for them in a way. At the same time, practically every single other game in the genre caters to that sort of experience and it feels a little strange to me when people want that for a game that has an alternative experience built directly in.
It's one of those things where I get it and I don't. I'll just try to convince them otherwise I suppose
Some invaders want to fight the players fairly, and some want to murder them and fuck up their day. Anyone who gives up on duels isn't invading because they like pvp. If they liked pvp they'd still be duelling, and they'd bow and show etiquette in an invasion. They like the buzz they get from attacking people who they have their hands full with a scion or a bunch of rats or some minors. Everything else is justification. But you do you
I think that's a very specific way to look at invasions but I hear you. Duels and etiquette sort of go against the whole thing for me, but people can absolutely do those things if they want to. I just think if you restrict invasions to the idea of a duel or any other "fair" 1v1 type scenario, you're sort of ignoring all the other mechanics at play.
I do believe that the average invader does have a slight skill advantage over the average pve player. Whether they’ve been at it since Demon’s Souls or a new player, they’re always having more exposure to fighting other players, typically while outnumbered as well. They also have the added benefit of not being able to be targeted by enemies in a notoriously difficult game, as well as (by merit of exposure to the invasion experience and past playthroughs) a better working knowledge of enemy placement and other hazards in the level. Being outnumbered also forces them to think more strategically, so they’re better at resource management, splitting the host from his buddies, and using the element of surprise.
I believe Saint Riot put it best. “This is where an invader shines; in a single, beautiful moment of absolute fucking chaos.”
Very often the case and a well-made point. I think the only real difference between a bad invader and a good one is time. It's definitely a path that leads to skill almost invariably because it demands the most of the player. I really wish everyone saw the merits, even if they don't want to participate themselves.
@@emotionaljonxvx it actually translates into being a better pve player as well. You become more aware of enemy placements, which can help you develop strategies to overcome difficult encounters. Sometimes you’ll even see your invasion victims take on the enemies in really efficient or creative ways
I think the big issue with invasions in Elden ring, which was also an issue in previous games but more prevalent now is the matchmaking system for invasions. Too many times am I on a fresh low level just hit church Elleh and summoned a friend in to be invaded by a person that's not only levels higher but has a complete kitted character with pvp meta/cheese. It also doesn't help the insane amount of skips in the game that allow this so someone can make a twink character, do all the skips, then still be low level while having a full set up except for maybe a 4th talisman slot if they don't just have other summons come in and kill those bosses required. Matchmaking on both ends is terrible for either side. It's just sad that most invaders that are "skilled" are just abusing exploits like the serpent hunter chainsaw, or being able to cast lightning incants faster than what can be reacted too due to a little exploit...or doing other exploits for various effects. Personally I feel it's ridiculous cause you don't really get something serious out of invades that would constitute cheesing invades. Wouldn't you know those that don't cheese or exploit put up a legit fight and will have a pretty good fight even if it means I lose. It ain't about losing to me cause I get it, when playing online and with others you set yourself up for invades. My issue is the matchmaking/exploits/multitude of skips to set your character your up to be fully kitted and ready to stomp out players that aren't there or nowhere near there. They need to fix that matchmaking where not only does it work on upgrades but make it match the amount of talismans and make it so it's either same level or make the level difference even tighter than what it currently is cause a level 9 character shouldn't be getting invaded by a level 20 or whatever many levels higher that kitted while the level 9 player is fresh at church of elleh
Before anyone says anything yeah I'm advocating for making invades closer in level/set up more so than fair cause let's face it invades aren't fair for either side but there should be a better matchmaking system than what's currently in place cause not everyone is summoning in pvp gods that are waiting for smoke. Some players are just pve only but want to play with friends that are also pve only of course they're both gonna do bad in pvp especially if they only build for pve
So I think I get the essence of what you're getting at. Twinks can easily stomp new/ungeared players and that's something new players aren't going to appreciate. Invaders can cheese and cheat and exploit and they do so at an anecdotally high rate in your experience, which isn't necessarily wrong.
I will say, twinking is something that can be done on both ends, not to mention overleveled summons, and exploits are obviously available to everyone.
As far as invasion level ranges go, you can only invade 90% below your level so if you get invaded by someone while you're level 9, they can only be level 10 or lower. And a level 10 invader is capable of invading up to at least 31, and a level 31 host can have non-scaled phantoms up to at least 44 (downscaled phantoms can be any level of course) and there will be at least 2 if not 3 of them. So a lot of invaders in that range are going to fight both brand new characters co-oping at Elleh and gankers holding out at Stormveil.
I've made twinks in this game and I'm currently (in this video even) running a level 20 +5/+2 character who only uses Limgrave gear and upgrades to try and give people a more authentic experience. I certainly have a great time fighting players who are just going through the game at-level but any time I encounter a gank or overleveld phantom, it's rough.
Not to say any point you're making isn't true of your experience, just trying to give my perspective.
One shot builds copied from online, doesn't make good pvp. The skill ceiling isn't actually that high.
I definitely was more on board with this section of the series. I wasnt even aware of complaints of invaders having skill at the game was part of it. This is somethig that doesn't bother in ER or other from games. (except in Demon's Souls with the final boss in Tower of Latria. In that specific case, it guaranteed that long time players of great skill would always become a challenge and new players trying to finish the game for the first time wouldnt be able to catch up to while stuck with 1v1 duels.)
I've always recognized that statistically the invader is at disadvantage against 3 coop teams, and have to rely on environment to make up for their disadvantage, even with high skill at the game.
I've not heard this Twink slang used before, so maybe that shows how outside these debates around the game are. Personally, I would say that choosing to be a low level player with high-tuned gear goes a but against the spirit of being an invader. Being placed in unpredictable and disadvantaged positions is what makes winning an invasion enjoyable for me. It does develop skill that otherwise wouldnt exist. To try to circumvent facing other skilled players by playing dice over finding new players to invade just wouldnt hit thay engagement for me at all. Is the joy there winning for its own sake? Hm
Elden Ring has far more advantage that can be gain from environment than other games. Too much use of environment has resulted in long periods of time just running across the map. To the point that I always carry a pocket spear and spectral lance with the bow talismans. Pretty sure this is the fastest/furthest projectile in the game. Beat 6 fleeing invaders with that just last night.
Sadly, I was also sent home twice with coop being cancelled because the host didnt want to chase an invader fleeing across the map. People are starting to catch wise that the host can do this to cancel unfun or tedious invaders.
(For anyone who wants to know how to dodge that, even with the tracking. You either need to sprint horizontally to the spectral lance, or dodge into the direction of the curve.)
I find the whole conversation to be vast and intriguing. Invasions are such a specific type of gameplay that people have lots of very conflicting feelings about them, often having never even heard the other side.
I'm just trying my best to give people as much perspective as I can and hopefully bridge some gaps where possible.
Thanks for the comment
You made good points about those with skills in PvP whether or not as an invader. Mostly when I invade, and find a group of players perhaps ready to gank with very cheesy and cheapshot ranged spamming to make it unavoidable, the best option is to retreat from that. Having actual skill and ganks by certain player groups are complicated depending on the players in question.
It's a complicated tapestry to be sure. I've had a lot of people over the years tell me invaders are always gonna have this huge advantage because they're so much more skilled but it's the sort of thing where anyone who has spent the time to invade knows just how often you'll run into a gank or even just regular cooperators who are clearly on the level and how difficult it can be.
Can't blame people who have never experienced it, can only try to give them some perspective.
@@emotionaljonxvx maybe. There’s really no guarantee whether an invader is skillful. The advantage the invaders have is skill, true, as well as having the host’s enemies with said invaders if they’re not eradicated first. That said, the host and furled fingers usually have the most advantages in skill and/or by simply out powering the invader they find. In my experience, chances of being ganked in invasions are high, 9 out of 10 times. As I said, it is complicated depending on the players themselves, and how those players behave in-game. It’s about showing good sportsmanship at least through a bow or some generous gesture for trying.
One does not simply walk into the blender lol I feel attacked as that is my method
Well we can't all be the best of the best. Some of us die when killed!
@@emotionaljonxvx skill issue
Invaders could also be seen as just "really tough minibosses with good AI." They don't have some of the OP attacks that bosses do, and are balanced by their healing + knowledge. I'm in my first play through of ds3, it's my 2nd souls game after ds1. I was in Grand Archives and was getting stonewalled by the NPC trio on the exterior, before I said, "f*** it, and" used chameleon to sneak most of the way past them until they aggroed, allowing me to separate them using the elevator shortcut. Once that occurred I took them out one at a time b/c I guess their AI didn't know how to manipulate elevators. It was a somewhat fulfilling victory, but still felt a little hollow because I didn't really learn the gank mechanics and just used the level layout to my advtg. Now, imagine a player or team of players in their position who used the elevator shortcut properly. The npc trio turns into an entirely different kind of challenge, from a puzzle boss to a gank. Still hard, but in a different way, almost no different from the other kinds of challenges the game throws.
That was incredible enemy placement.
I don't always watch philosophising on a ridiculously niche issue, but when I do, it's Emotional Jon.
"A build is representative of the character; skill of the player." I do like that. Nicely phrased.
Imo, skill is one of the less important issues in PVP. It doesn’t matter how good the invader is in a blender. Sure, hot swapping to stormhawk is a helpful skill, but a good supply of consumables, a ranged option, and a knowledge of the map are way more important when it comes to winning an invasion.
Very much so. The best duelist isn't necessarily any good at invasions, as they call for different considerations. Knowing where you're going is just as important as knowing how to quickswap to an appropriate weapon.
Jon just for you I’m gonna protect the erdtree sentinel with dual lighting naginatas at level 1 to make player Git Gud and stop cheesing the first boss they can encounter with 2 phantoms, I love your videos keep the good work
Be gentle, yet firm.
@@emotionaljonxvx almost everytime i see a wretch low level player i just equip my club and unequip all armor, wretch for life, i love your videos, do you stream? or do you have something so i can donate to you? you are really the best on yt rn tbh
@@Naim11443 I appreciate that! This whole thing has been going a little faster than I had hoped for so I still need to get memberships/patreon set up. I just want to make sure I'm giving people value for whatever it is.
I've been considering streaming for a while and I'm leaning in that direction, maybe doing it once a week.
Hopefully, I'll have them all setup before too long and then I can become a full-time bastard man.
@@emotionaljonxvx i really love your videos, they are really unique i have not seen people talk about twinks or the pvp in a more phiolosphical way and the way you explain it is great, be sure to let us know when you are gonna stream and when to donate so i dont miss it, i dont really donate and shit but you are the real deal, be quick tho, use the acceleration your channel is having
what a spring. an emotional rollercoaster.
i uh.. would like to say sorry about that comment. completely missed the mark. youre a shrewed one chief
Call it shallow or callous on my part but I really wish this game was less accessible. The wave of invasion hate from a new player base that has no knowledge or appreciation for the existing culture of souls games is proof to me that sometimes gatekeeping is good, actually.
It's a tough thing to quantify but I understand where you're coming from. I want the games to be as accessible as possible because I want more people to play. I just wish they had taken efforts to better involve people in PVP on every end, instead of making it some obscure mechanic that new players would have to google to figure out.
No covenants, no invasion zones, no real rewards, it's all such a bad effort where the games could just be way more inviting about their PVP and actually encourage people to do it. Instead, we're left with invaders who have very little incentive to stick with the game and co-opers who can't stand the idea of having their overly-long game interrupted for any reason.
yea surely the gatekeeping isnt gonna be cringe when you do it. obviously the thousands of other attempts to gatekeep stuff was cringe only because people werent trying hard enough. definitely not because the concept is dead in the water. surely.
@@UnknownRayDar thanks for the reductionist take
I think you mean the multiplayer’s accessibility, not the game itself. The multiplayer isn’t going to improve just because Malenia or Margit or whomever becomes just a little more difficult to defeat.
I would be interested to see what would change if a new player could only participate in summoning other people after some kind of roadblock. Maybe they have to fight and kill three NPC invaders, or maybe they have to be RL 50, or maybe they have to kill at least one shardbearer.
@@Zythryl No, I mean making the game as a whole including pve less accessible. Between spirit summons, password phantoms and busted ashes of war the game has more difficulty settings than ever before. The people allured by this are the same people who don't know about the existing pvp culture and have no appreciation for it and think invaders are as bad as serial killers. How many changes do you have to make to a game for it to have mass appeal before it no longer represents the qualities that attracted it's original audience? The new generation of players doesn't want pvp, it doesn't want to improve at the game by making more restrictions on iterative playthroughs, it doesn't like the mechanics that separate souls games from the over saturated ARPG market and that fucking sucks.
Last night I invaded like 35ish times, and I think I won about half of them. I have to disagree about preparation not being a "skill". Knowing what tool to use require situational awareness, and how to use that effectively requires practice and quick thinking. Hard swapping is also a skill to develop, and a big part of it is inventory management. So many of my wins came from just knowing how to use waves of darkness to clear overly aggressive attackers, and then switching to chase down to mop up. Map knowledge also help me get to favorable mob positions. The damage is so damn high in this game that prep alone can win you the game without even getting the fundamentals such as spacing, because often one good ash, bow shot or a mob as distractions wins you the invasion.
I do definitely consider preparation a skill and something that works best with practice. I just wanted to separate that there is a difference between bringing the right equipment and knowing how to use it effectively. A lot of people bring the right tools for the job but don't use them well, and that's where skill is the difference.
The focus for this video was more directed at the idea that invaders are definitively more skilled and that builds/preparedness are representative of that. Plenty of invaders wandering around with "saw it on RUclips" builds and have no idea how to use them properly, but to the untrained eye it may look identical.
I definitely agree with you though, sorry if that didn't come across.
@@emotionaljonxvx No you are good and thanks for clearing things up.
I don't remember seing invaders with overpowered weapons while progressing the game. But just yesterday, my cooperator spawned with the Elden Beast's sword and I was level 30. I was confused because I thought at least the match making was supposed to take levels and gears in consideration.
It's a really simple but sort of unintuitive system where it only accounts for maximum upgrade level and character level. You can use any weapon or ash of war or whatever so long as you have the stats so long as its upgrade level is at or below your maximum.
Lots of people keep themselves low level and low upgrade to play at lower level with a more robust character. Basically, they're twinks, except you don't necessarily need someone else to give you the gear. You can just play through the game and if you're good enough, you can get through the whole thing at low level and with low upgrade gear.
@@emotionaljonxvx Ok got it. In this case I'm pretty sure that was someone who had the weapon from someone else. They didn't play like someone who knew what they were doing, and why coop with randoms with that type of build anyway?
I guess my point is that I see more cooperaters than invaders with high level gears in early game.
matchmaking doesnt account for summoned players.. you can summon your max level friend that has everything in the game on your rl30 build... and no, downscaling doesnt properly work so those phantoms be one shotting 90% of invaders showing up
@@junoglrr9119 What about invaders? I tried invading again yesterday because Vare gave me bloody finders but I was level 50. I had mostly 2v1 fights with cooperators using rivers of blood and end game AOE spells. All but 1they were hanging out in open swamps with no enemy to help me. I put up a fight regardless then they proceed to tea bag me... That can't all be people who hate invaders, they just get a kick out of ruining people's fun. Griefers.
@@fredbyoutubing they dont hate incaders. Well maybe a few but its just really people liking the pvp or just simply ganking.
See, you might read some comments sometimes about how certain people hate pvp and want it removed from souls games but only if they loose to the invader otherwise they really liking pvp
Skill is interested in how it's viewed depends on the outcomes of whoever has gained sufficiency in it to the one viewing. If someone helping has skill, it's great. If someone hindering or attacking has it, then it's bad. Anything that helps one play the game better (better, meaning the player has an easier time) could be considered to be a skill. Skill is also not something some people "just have" or others "do not have". And due to there only being a set amount of tools in the box, while the combination of them is vast, it is finite. Anything I can do, you can do too. Oddly, skill is treated as less of something to develop and more equivalent to just something people have. This leads to interesting things in regard to invasions. The group of newcomer people trying them out easily get sidelined as it's inconvenient to address as being a thing. I'm one such person - never played a fromsoft game before.
I find, so often, the conversation seems to center invasions as only something people who have played souls games for decades partake in doing. As opposed to there also being plenty of new people giving them a whirl. So does this idea "invaders are all just ultra skilled players" mean that any newcomer to invasions suddenly is a top tier player? I've fought against enough fledgling invaders as a co-op summon to understand many are still working on figuring things out. Just as much, as a beginner invader, I've gotten the stuffing beat out of me due to still needing to work on my tactical and situational awareness. It is not the domain of ancient hardcore vets alone - but many different skill tiers and such people. This is why I find it odd to assume invaders are in it out of malice for the real world players. It's very exciting to invade (and to be invaded, as all scramble to be ready with the hunt now officially afoot), and especially for a beginner it's a very powerful feeling to be on the hunt, where even if the hunter's objective is to kill the host, said host and their buddies can easily also put the invader down.
Skill does weird things when combined with the subjectivity of fun. Is it really that bad to get shown one's skills could use some work by losing, in a game where that's kinda part of the deal? Never mind that nobody can always win. And even in a great game like Elden Ring there will always be a moment where despite having fun, the person playing finds a sore spot, or one instance where they feel they are not having it. What is the difference between getting devoured by Rykard for three hours before finally turning him into a pair of shoes, and an invader at random showing up to send one to their previous checkpoint? I suppose, again, it turns to the invader being piloted by a player. And how it causes less difficult emotions to get made into snake munchies by a boss for three hours than to every once in a blue moon get pummeled by another player.
Git gud mentality seems to have caused many to think having skill is a virtue and those that have it are the best. Rather than viewing it as something to develop by just engaging in and with a hobby. I bet most players have gotten mocked with "just git gud" when they are trying to vent or discuss difficult emotions about a boss. And as a result, are quick to keep the chain going rather than just stopping the cycle and allowing people in a public space to talk about something they found infuriating without getting "git gudded". And it might have fostered an environment where people do not want to be shown to be lacking skill by another player, because such makes them feel they were proven to be without skill - and thus are prone to getting bullied again by people eager to do what was done to them onto others. In a sense, it makes people defensive because nobody wants to get bullied. And this can cause lashing out, like how Elden Ring invasions seem to do.
Well said and well thought! It's a whole mess of assumptions and opinions and heated arguments and belittling tension. Invasions spart animosity and I get why people hate it. Me going through all the different little arguments and niches of how people deride others for participating in the game is just how I like to cope. One day, I hope to have convinced enough people to rethink they're perspective enough to make a real change in how the bulk of the community addresses invasions.
I need FromSoftware to pay more attention to multiplayer and give people a better long-term game experience. I hope the community can come together to ask for that on a unified front, but we just aren't there yet. Maybe one day.
Invading can b tough and kind of bs but there is no doubt that keeping at it improves your skills in the game. I wanna get super good and dominate any 3 player group eventually! Thanks for the inspo
Good at PVE doesn’t equal good at PVP and most people who like invasions have more time spent playing it and I’m a casual play player who likes cooperative play and don’t want to spend my free time playing the game in a way I don’t enjoy. I’m still going to play and just try to overcome the invasions that I typically don’t enjoy. ✌🏼
This is exhausting.
Skill is knowledge. More knowledge will always make you more skilled. Your skill limit is essentially your knowledge limit.
Unless you happen to have lobster claws instead of hands, then knowledge probably won't help you. You have to be capable of adapting that knowledge, which itself is a skill.
An invader, as in one who invades as an aspect of the game engaged with the most, will have a knowledge advantage. Not only in knowing PvP builds, but also common PvE builds. An invader knows what they're most likely to face and thus build to counter it. A PvE player doesn't. They also have a better handle on latency, they learn to recognise the delay and are quicker at adapting to it.
I have played souls games from Fromsoft since 2009 and invasions have grown tiresome imo. Now I know the people that enjoy the mechanic will have something negative to reply, but invasions in Demon's souls and DS3 were the best imo. My reasoning for this is because in Demon's souls when invaded the invader had to hunt you down but also had to contend with enemies in the stages. Which they could run past or fight through, their choice, but you could not just hide behind all enemies. In DS3 after 2 or more times of being killed by invaders you cou pick up an item in firelink shrine, which if used when invaded, that could make enemies no longer protect an invader but turn on him. Which was good since some areas you could be invaded by up to 3 people. I think these 2 ways of handling invasions overall was best. Both sides of the equation had a degree of unpredictablity which made those who don't enjoy invasions have a plan b instead of being forced offline or unalive/ember state themselves if invasions were not enjoyable for them to partake in.
I think there's a lot of room to add more mechanics in invasions to make them more dynamic. I think Elden Ring has one of the worst systems, not necessarily mechanically but in how it only allows you to have one sort of experience. It leaves an incentive void and really discourages people who aren't already well-acclimated from participating.
I wish they'd be a little more diligent about how they handle multiplayer but so far it seems they're more interested in horses.
Every new big game from fromsoft has its growing pains, not to mention this game was especially hyped by people. Leading to alot of people who don’t particularly “get” how fromsoft and by extension its comunity rolls. Some people will eventually git gud and will be defending fromsoft with their next entry. And those who don’t (like always) won’t be missed.
With the best way of understanding the “dark soul’s experience” is that dying is part of the fun. With lazy purple from tf2 describing it best - “who do you think is gonna make it? The guy throwing a tantrum and calling you a hacker or the guy who just had his head blown off and is taking notes?”
Typing here to signal boost because that is how this shit is working today. Regarding input: I'd like a video addressing the various aspects it takes to be a good coop player from the view point of an invader. I like all roles, got some more of that git gut attitude from your videos and promise to try to love those ganks.
RUclips loves its comment food and I appreciate you feeding it for me
@@emotionaljonxvx I'm wondering if a back and forth gets extra points for a while now.
@@bobsinclair8990 Maybe! I think it's something where RUclips doesn't like to tell people much other than what to try. Honestly, I think they might not even know as it's all just algorithmic nonsense.
@@emotionaljonxvx There are some interesting articles about how Disney & Co do their bot farms. Assuming they don't just fleece their contractor they should know a thing or two about what works.
There are absolutely idiot invaders and people who are cosplay or greatsword mash invaders. They entirely rely on oneshots or parries or play exclusively low level. imo the only skillful invaders are those who can survive 3v1s consistently on multiple latencies at META LEVEL like og1donut, chanchomcfly, aylidh, veill etc. That being said even if there is skill like spacing and risk assessment, one mage essentially negates that since they can just do damage to you at no risk to themselves with the most forgiving spacing especially if they have lightroll. They can also have max level phantoms as well which are insanely unfair with dragon bullshit plus optimal nagis armor and moonveil and full heal. At this point the invader has to rely completely on knowledge checks like map knowledge aka cat ring drops or level design or some form of aow oneshot to even have a chance at winning. Game knowledge is definitely what defines the skilled invader from an r/badredman buckler shield babies first invasion. and those people i mentioned earlier have extensive knowledge on ds3 invasions or have invaded in ds3 for thousands of hours.
Predicting a parry* on latency without spamming it is definitely a real skill, but I agree knowledge checks are most important at all levels of invasions.
I don't think it takes much skill to best noobs to pvp when they are clueless how pvp mechanics work. Picking on noobs shows how unskilled a person is. Won't improve by picking on the weak
If you fight enough you can just know they took the damage and run away till the lag kicks in ...I've literally one shot someone and just ran across the area and waited for them to catch up
In my last vid I had a guy that took damage 10-15 seconds after dealt and it was something special. Definitely could have played more carefully but I'm just too aggressive for my own good.
@emotionaljonxvx same here lol I need to find that clip I think I was live and counted it down
Helping out with the algorithm.
Can't defeat my chainsaw? Sounds like a skill issue.
invaders also seem skilled because roughly half of them are literally cheating. infinite stamina, infinite heals, infinite physick flasks, etc. beyond annoying. the dinosaur client-based hosting needs to go.
Okay so, most people that complay about fairness should know, you are trying to make the game easier by getting friends, this is the way to balance that out, so either you try to improve and do it by yourself, or you face the consequences.
Now if you complay about how invasions are unfair and you are the one invading... Dont talk to me please just dont, once i killed a guy (me beign a hunter), the guy was using crystallian SpearS with Sleep, i killed him by reacting to the cheap tactic with a cheap tactic of my own (spam low cost low dmg incatations while the host attacked him), We got him, and then he went out of his way to insult me through Steam.
If you are like that, just dont do invasions bro, i swear you can have fun by yourself in this game
As much as ganks can be ridiculous, it's completely fair for people to do it. Invaders, at least good ones, know and appreciate that risk. It's an easy thing to work around and it can be a lot of fun to mess them up.
Plus, as an invader, you're supposed to have at least a mechanical disadvantage so any uphill nature to the battle is better embraced than rejected.
good talk
show me the person who has been invading since demons souls i have not met them and would like to fight them
The popularity of games with sbmm bleeding into souls because zoomers can't take getting pointed down on
I believe that skill should always be the top factor in a game of any genre. I would host endless 3v3s in DS3 for about 2 years and barely die. On top of that i could use any weapon and be an asset. Elden ring is riddled with gimmicks and the sole focus is build setup so now we have these meta goons with high poise off hand hand axes using flaming strike and thats it. If you dont use that then you are at a disadvantage. (Or some similar setup) Then they think they are good. I actually got hatemail from one of these losers the other day. Pathetic
A lot of people want to gatekeep and boot lick fromsoft....the pvp is just bad and annoying, the fights are a waste of time and the game needs better balancing... bloodborne was the only good invasion based game and the pvp was good, a fight felt like a fight...elden ring, 😂 yall get lucky making one hit using a cheap build....from soft needs more things to make the system better sure....but the game is annoying BECAUSE of you meta players...that game is too big to be wasting my time because you didnt know how to better cure your boredom.....cant yall like make a group thing?
Hell yeah, more moral dilema
People should invade if they want just don't twink in a low-level area (unless you run into gankers).
Only time I lose is when it’s clearly cheats being used
I lose because I'm an idiot who is bad at the game. Also when cheats
@@emotionaljonxvx I never understood why this game is competitive when their are no leaderboards
All invaders have great skill? Lmao, as someone who co-ops quite a bit I can tell you that this is most definitely not the case.
This is the best argument for get gud, put to video. Lol
Colloseum is not fun the next best thing is getting dicked down by aoe and wizards going all out against one person so mid but addicting
The colosseum needs a lot of work, for sure.
Guud get skill
Most invaders would get moped up by an average dualist thats why they spend their time fighting unfair fights against unprepared players, so they can feel better about being average. Then they say funny stuff like invaders are always the most skilled players 😂
Troglodyte 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Pack in the mail it’s gone
She like how I smell cologne
Just signed a deal I’m on
Yeah yeah
Also it’s because invaders always have more playtime and they’ve typically been playing since at least ds3 if they invade
I think it’s cool people like pvp but it’s not for me I usually just disconnect or jump off the nearest ledge then resummon my friends until I get invaded again then I repeat.
Maybe give it a shot sometime. It can be a lot of fun once you get into it.
Tons of potential with this channel. Algorithm is getting to me and I only watch Chasethebro for PVP content. Get on that grind for the DLC, this was a really interesting video, and I think your view/sub counts might skyrocket if you put out similar calibre content. The way Fromsoft designs their multiplayer experience is so unique - coopers aren't directly asking to get invaded, so you are far more of a random boss encounter rather than just another PVP opponent like in duels or any other competitive multiplayer mode in any video game. The dynamic is completely different. You learn to relish being the "bad guy," "ruining" other people's fun by killing them just like a difficult PvE enemy, such that they learn from their death all the same.
Viewers like polish more than anything. One thing I think you would benefit from is a planned solo intro or one with a friend to introduce the ideas you're talking about when its appropriate. A cheat code to getting people to stick is the music you choose in that moment as well, just throw in some recognizable ambient Skyrim music or something to get people talking, trigger their nostalgia. Seriously man, nicely done. Keep it up.
Listen Emo Jon….I’m taking a small break from invasions at the moment and I’m gonna need you to stop making me want to come back early👺🫶