As someone who only started invading in Elden Ring, I really wish that we had a covenant system or some way to feel like you’re invading for more than just the sake of invading. It’s interesting to hear about previous souls games and how the pvp was much more ingrained with the story. In Elden ring you’re either a crazy dude obsessed with blood or a crazy dude obsessed with killing your kin.
Yeah I've played ds1 and 3 pirated and also very late into their existence so I never got to experience any of that stuff. Honestly at the very least I wish I got more 1v1 invasions. Ig as is isn't too bad but my last attempt at a pvp character really soured me on it since it was low level and everyone had overlevelled people carrying
Demon's Souls invader here. Personally, I invade to protect the host against themselves- because after you beat the game, won't you feel empty? Disappointed? Forced to face reality again? Not on my watch. I invade to save players from all of that. The more times I stop you, the more times you respawn, the longer this dream can continue.
I don't like invading, but I love Invaders. Whether I'm Gold or Blue, fending off an Invasion is my favorite feeling, so I'm in complete agreement. I almost never summon for help myself, so I rarely get to be the host- but when I feel like it, I go to this lovely little copse north of the shack on the western edge of Liurnia, where the Harpy sings, and use the Taunter's Tongue so I can give Invaders a memorable duel set to music.
Unfortunately you are sort of ruining the experience for invaders because if they wanted to duel they would just go into the coliseum. Personally I sever everytime I get a solo host and usually just block them. Being a blue is fine, I just wish if this game detected that a blue was summoned then it would try to get a second invader because most of the time a blue comes along with 2 other people and now it’s 3v1 against the invader with no hopes for a 3v2 as the player count gets maxed out. There’s ways to make that work but situations like that lead to those invaders that everyone hates who will just run the whole time and camp the group out otherwise they will just get blendered in 2 seconds. The other way around that is for the invaders to use the most broken load outs in the game so they have a chance at winning a 3v1. Which is really a shame because I think the cosplay builds like the one being shown in the video are extremely fun for both parities but I’m sure he could attest that it falls short in a 3v1, often times with one of the summons being a level 200+
When you first get to farum azula you gotta try clearing the middle section of the map near the lightning dragon summoning a couple tarnished then you run down to where the worm faces are use taunters tongue near the worm face boss the worm faces there also attack invaders
Hell yeah bro, i fw the setting you provide! Don’t listen to the other guy, invaders who avoid duels are boring anyway. You aren’t “ruining” the experience, I’m always down for a 1v1 / 2v2 any day of the week, I don’t shy away from a friendly duel just because I’m queuing for an invasion. In all honesty, I’m just looking for a fun PvP experience. I might even have more fun in a 1v1 duel against a solid player than 3v1 gank where I then have to kill 2 more blues that get summoned instantly and then the host DCs at the end anyway lmao. Obviously I’d much prefer an organic invasion of players going through the level, but this far into the game’s lifecycle, i can’t reasonably always expect that and am perfectly fine with a duel or even ganks. Some ganks are incredibly spammy and toxic but it is what it is, the game isn’t designed to be in our favor.
When you spawn in as a hunter in the Lake of Rot, see a poor invader getting picked off by the host and sunbro with magic and arrows while desperately trying to reach them, dying to the damage and rot, then getting t-bagged by the other two while you watch on unwilling to attack the invader out of guilt, you'll realise that invaders are people too.
@@DataDrain02no, invaders aren’t out to “cause suffering”. It’s been said before that Invaders are meant to be just any other really strong enemy. If you’ve got the mindset that everything is just out to get you then nothing will be fun.
@@futuristicbus61 Tell that to the ones who intentionally use oneshot builds that are long range. And use the move from an area where they can't be seen or heard. Or, the ones who just endlessly run away from you on a field. (One time, I used the TT and had this exact thing happen.... I eventually had to jump off a cliff to make it stop.)
@@DataDrain02suffering is different for everyone. But the red that just made you " suffer" would most likely pull you out of a real fire and not keep pushing you back in it. It's just a game. For someone to win someone has to lose.
One thing I've noticed is the general invader culture. You would expect the invader to be a brutal and ruthless foe only out for their own, here to claim the host's resources for their own gain. (humanity in DS1 and embers in DS3) Yet there exist somewhat of a loose etiquette, most won't go for the host first, most will wait for you to deal with NPC enemies if you are on your own, some will even lead struggling players to the next grace before fighting, few will be the bastards you expect going for cheap tactics and twinking. That variety is what I love is about souls PVP.
Absolutely! Invaders, like every other type of player, are not a monolith. These games facilitate all sorts of playstyles and it really let's people's personality shine through their characters.
Yeah it’s part of how we play all games with other people an experience player will try to avoid ever beating an opponent 3 times in a row unless they want to stop playing
I dont mind invaders, i mind invaders who invade in early game areas (like Limgrave) with endgame spells then act like theyre the coolest players ever when they body you with sheer firepower.
It can be extremely frustrating to play against someone who has a clear advantage, but it can certainly go both ways. My point is really to highlight that the game never demands the player to be of a specific skill or power level and multiplayer can refute or reinforce that notion in a lot of ways. That's what makes it so cool, even if it sometimes sucks.
I dont mind co-opers, i mind co-opers who password summon in early game areas (like Limgrave) with endgame spells then act like theyre the coolest players ever when they body you with sheer firepower.
I love the invasion mechanic, but as it is, I don't find it very immersive. My reason for it is that the game tells you the invader's name, and is especially immersion-breaking to me when it's a real person's username. I feel like the best way to handle it is to keep the invader's identity vague until you meet him in the world. Instead of "Dark Spirit xXB1gD1CKD4ddYXx has invaded your world!" I think it would be cooler for a message to slowly fade in reading "You feel a dark presence lurking within your world..." with no further explaination.
Players complaining about invaders having "advantages" are ridiculous. Red by default has only two: PVEs don't attack him (and it can be taken away from him) and he knows more or less where the host is. That's it. Host has: at least one summoned co-op player, no friendly fire, full amount of flasks (invaders are halved), equal or (usually) higher level than invader, Blue Sentinels or equivalents. That's al lot of advantages. Oh, "the invader comes prepared and you are not"? That's not inherent quality of invader nor a host. A noob red might invade a gank of veterans, nothing guarantees skill level of connected players, this isn't a ladder game. I myself invaded a duo of players who ganked in a lake spamming lighting spells - oh, they were prepared. You open yourself to invasions be prepared to be invaded, it's simple. No one wants to admit it, but main reason people complain about invasions is beacause they were not only defeated, but defeated but a human player. That is the reason why someone might die 30 times to a boss and persevere, but when invaded they hide, commit suicide and even disconnect. This isn't the death that's the problem, but the fact that someone somewhere killed your character and (gasp!) might had a laugh at your cost. Also, about etiquette: if you think reds are mean, try invading yourself and see how scummy hosts can be. Cheaters, disconnecters, gankers, AFK farmers - eventually you will grow to hate the playerbase. First five invasions in Elden Ring (my first playtrough, I was doing them for a quest) teached me that acting freindly to host ends with his friends jumping out of the bushes and dragon beathing you. No thanks.
In dark souls 3 this one goober hiding inside Wolnir's arena whenever I invaded. It would've been fine if I could invade anybody other than him. Also he was literally right in the boss room, if he didn't want to fight he could have activated the boss and sent me home. He must've been farming for souls or really hated invaders
You really couldn’t have explained it any better the player base is full of prideful tumors after invading for so long you start to see this and you will come away hating most of them
This comment right here. There are rare occasions where I, as the invader, do some funny meme shit like Mimic Veil and fucking around for a few minutes before leaving - however that is only when I know the Host & co-op buddies will be similar memelords. Every other invasion I try and show no mercy. No, I will not let you fight overworld bosses or enemies normally. You also forgot to mention that Hosts can also have a Rune Arc active, hell, using Godrick's rune is essentially a free 40 levels for the Host. I have a lot of hours on Elden Ring and it's sickening to see how people play. I think my longest invasion was about 20 minutes running after a Host in the Consecrated Snowfield because he never had balls enough to fight me 1v1 and always waited for co-op buddies and Blue Hunters to help him.
The same can be said to you. Many people on the other side of this souls argument laugh at people like you knowing you start frothing at the mouth if we DC on you. Seems you can’t stand that either. Tit for tat aye? 🤷🏼♂️ fromsoft could just design a way for people to play online with invasions being disabled and the two sides of the community never have to play together again. 🤷🏼♂️
It's not only about PvP, but a connection between players as a whole. Messages with a limited choice of words, gestures, bloodstains, a random player that you see fighting for one's life out of nowhere and then quickly fading away before your own eyes. Invasion mechanic is a part of this system that also helps to realize how different and strange the world of the souls series is compared to any other game. It feels not like an average dark fantasy, but a dreadful, misty dream that you can't describe thoroughly. Both inviting and hostile, charming and horrifying.
I might suck as an invader but I have always love being invaded due to it adding to immersion of the world and the fact that I am not alone, or safe and that adds so much tension and immersion into the game+ the t rex velociraptor allegory was amazing. Very good video man an instant subscribe!
I feel like a lot of the disdain towards invaders comes from a place of ego? Why is it so infuriating to die to an invader maybe once or twice but bashing your head against a boss for the 100th time is totally fine? It's because they died to another player which hurt their ego.
For me the differences are that a) I know I will face the boss, whereas an invasion is only a chance of happening and b) I can repeat a boss over and over again to learn the patterns, wheras invaders are more or less random, no prior knowledge of moves, items etc. There's also point c) some people just don't like PvP.
@@Lynn3011people dont like the idea of being bad and less skillful at something than others. Its both a mental issue and a thing every human being has to face. You can take so many losses before you start doubting yourself and yet you can learn how to lose gracefully and basically eventually by trial and error not lose. If you lose and dont learn how to lose and learn you lost twice.
Having to reset every 15 mins because some tryhard invader jumps in to kill you is frustrating. It's like going to work except every Tuesday someone stabs you and steals your money. You invaders need such wild justifications for why people hate you. You are just evil people, that's all. That's why they hate you.
One issue with invasions is concentration of skill - at level 30, invaders vastly outskill their victims per capita because they're not 'new' invaders. At 100 or 150, it levels out. There's much noise around who has the advantage, but invaders have map enemies on their side and an already-prepared mindset. The real factor is who is more skilled, and it doesn't make sense for a new player to jump right into Malenia for instance, which is why the game is structured like that. I would be enthusiastic about invasions if I could ensure an experience for hosts more like Miyazaki's (and your) vision of it. I say this as an orange or blue man in these situations
That's an interesting point, though I'd say level and skill are not inherently tied. Builds are determined by level, which can help to augment skill greatly, but you can have devastating builds at low level and terrible builds at high level. For me, the biggest difference is you take a lot more damage at higher levels so there's less room for error, whereas at low level the damage is a lot more tame and you can do a little more back and forth. Neither is specifically skill-exclusive, just different types of fights. Thanks for the input
From a Co-Op phantoms perspective, My only problem with Elden Ring invasions is the frequency and the overall flaws in the system itself, in previous souls games you had a rather comfortably set cooldown timer in between invasions that could be overwritten by the dried finger. In Elden Ring they are NON-STOP, the cooldown barely works for more than 10 minutes which is hardly enough time to catch up to where you were and make actual progress without just sprinting through entire zones due to how massive levels are in this game. this issue was only exhasperated by the implementation of Wex Dust into the matchmaking which was tilted heavily in favor of invaders than it was co-opers in summoning pools( I.E. getting summoned from limgrave as a PYROMANCER to help fight the FIRE GIANT... And its not like I can just go to the grace and resort spells AS A PHANTOM *_FROMSOFTWARE_* ). Before frequent invasions could atleast be mitigated by going to less populated areas, something even DS3 made transparent with its multiplayer activity icons in the fast travel menu, It doesnt help that Spirit summons have kinda made co-op phantoms obsolete. Why summon Joe Schmoe, increase the bosses health bar and open your world to invasions when you can just pop in mimic tear and get all the boons of multiplayer for free. Theres not even really any incentives to co-op or invade in the first place. Rune Arcs? Seriously? Why are you giving me rewards that I CANT USE AS A PHANTOM. Rewards I can get much easier and faster from just farming rats! How have you brought EVERYTHING from previous souls games back BUT NOT THE DRIVING FORCE OF THE MULTIPLAYER, Where are all the covenants?? Its feast or famine levels of extreme, either you're not getting the full multiplayer experience, or you ARE and its being forced down your throat so fast that you're choking on it. I used to love invasions, they were a twist that would catch you by surprise and spice up your run, now its become a cesspool of endless harassment either by Ganker Hosts, or Twink Invaders, not a surprise, but an inevitability.
It's in a rough place, for sure. It all feels like they didn't realize just how much they had fundamentally broken the previous systems when adding the open world and just didn't have the time / inclination to address them. Taking systems designed for a very different playstyle and pushing them into an exploration-heavy romp isn't exactly a graceful transition and I think people are really feeling the friction it creates.
thats not true.. a few months after elden ring released they increased the invasion timer by a huge number.. making re invading people impossible unless they use the tounter tongue. that wasnt the case in previous games.. FS kinda killed the multiplayer longevity by doing so and i hope they fix that for dlc
@@junoglrr9119 The only thing killing the multiplayer longevity is the blatantly superior options to circumvent it, not fromsoft "Rebalancing" the invasion timer (Which im going to need a source cited on that because theres nothing in the patch notes and the multiplayer activity is OBVIOUSLY going to die down MONTHS after launch, thats true of ANY video game) People who want/need help are just going to use the Spirit Summons, People who want to play with their friends are just going to use the Seamless Co-Op mod which removes the chance of invasions entirely, which unless this is the last souls type game, theres a good chance Fromsoft could see the popularity of the mod and extend the "Opt in" aspect of invasions even to co-op players too. And if you think Mods arent going to impact the future of souls games, I got a question for you... _where do you think the idea of Spirit Summons came from in the first place?_ *_Where do you think the idea to invade anywhere from any location came from?_* Poorly regulated invasions are going to be the DEATH of invasions as a whole, Mark my words.
@@sasaki999pro fromsoft never mentions everything in the patch notes… i think it was on the second or third patch… Didnt ds2 blue covenant have the priority of invading or helping a host in all the areas even though you werent in the same area as the person you invade or help? I dont disagree with you, its just weird mecanics in elden ring that will hurt multiplayer longevity. I still get quite active invasions in all the older souls games bc for example solo host invasions are a thing. I dont see that happening with elden ring unless they bring some changes with the dlc
@@junoglrr9119 I think if you're a type of blue phantom you MIGHT get called into a different zone? Blue Sentinel/Dark Moon, that sorta thing. Which is another thing Elden Ring poorly implemented, the Blue Phantoms in Elden Ring are practically useless. There's no moderation, no progression or worthwhile reward. All the duelists are just going to the arena, all the noobs are just using spirits, all the co-opers are just playing Seamless. That just kinda leaves invasions mostly at the mercy of Griefers, sadistic people who are literally in purely for the fun of bullying. Twink Invaders who are functioning on the power level of "Batman with Prep Time" And Gank Squads with OP phantoms who are literally just taunters tongue and idle waiting for victims to overwhelm. As it stands now, I don't know if the DLC CAN add anything to fix it. Its not as simple as "Enable Solo Invasions" or "Remove Spirit Summons", hell I don't even think an extended invasion cool down is enough. It would take a monumental restructuring of the current matchmaking system to course correct the state of the games multiplayer. If I had to make starting suggestions however... >Add level range restrictions to password summons, the current level scaling system IS. NOT. WORKING. >Nerf Spirit Summons, like across the whole board. >Enable Solo Host Invasions with satisfying incentives, like buffed Great Rune effects or multiplying runes gained. >A 15 minute Invasion cooldown that only activates AFTER the invader has left your world, one way or another. Increase the timer with subsequent invasions like DS1 did. >Harsher penalties for Disconnecting a multiplayer session >Implement account tied Skill Based priority PvP Matchmaking, honestly seeing Armored Core 6 try this has made me slightly more hopeful for the future of Fromsofts multiplayer systems, and only scrubs would fear getting pitted against someone with an equal skill level. >Implement a proper faction ecosystem, including purple phantoms and covenants with progression trees. >Make Blue Phantoms spawn near the host (and prioritize solo hosts) >Add a boss/zone filter for summoning pools And this last one is just a personal pet peeve of mine I've had since DS1 that I would like to see changed going forward even though I know most souls fans will vehemently disagree; >Implement universal *_Friendly Fire HITSTUN_* to ALL parties both PvE and PvP. No one likes getting corner trapped by a bunch of ganking A-Holes overlapping their own attack animations freely with eachother while you're stuck helplessly panic rolling in place and awaiting your imminent demise, Monster Hunter has had this feature for AGES, the games would be WAY more fair and balanced this way, and with proper implementation the amount of "Trolling" that could be done with it is negligible at best compared to what options are already available in-game.
I expected some sort of goofy ahh rambling of the Saintriot variety, never truly committing to any of the claims being made and remanding oneself to the borders of humor and contrarianism fashioned as a persona... but this was actually rather well written and well delivered. The work of someone who loves these games but knows how to take a step back and see what's what.
Thanks! Honestly, I am a big fan of Saint but I know that style isn't always for everyone, as it's mostly streamer content built for longform entertainment, rather than scripted thinkpieces. I'm trying my best to remain objective about my very strong opinions because I don't want to misrepresent an argument that I think a lot of fans of the games have only experienced through the more toxic points of the culture. Essentially, I want to convince people who I think would genuinely hate me otherwise that there's so much more to these games beyond first glance.
@@emotionaljonxvxI like Saint a good deal as well, I think he's flat out the funniest when it comes to, well, the unique thing he does. But I don't like when this gets in the way of having a solid opinion, in which Saint usually turns into this weird contrarian as he inevitably veers towards some unavoidable funny bit. I'm not saying everyone needs to be like G9 or whatever, cuz that'd be insane. I was just surprised that your tone for the few first seconds hinted at something closer to Saint, but actually ended up being something that can be shown to literally anyone who's curious about why PvP arrived in DeS and never left, all the way to ER. If such people were curious and had 18min, I think this would be a great eye opener. Some people (a lot lol) just don't naturally seem to ask the question "why is this system here?" They treat it like the shortest straightsword or a crap ash of war: must be here for the memes! The truth is otherwise, if anyone cares to think about it.
I do just want to say that I disagree with a major concept you've put forth: That Elden Ring is about overcoming challenges with infinite attempts and refining your skills. Elden Ring is the daughter of the Dark Souls series, and deep in its DNA it does share that capacity. But to call Elden Ring a game about honing your skill over time to overcome a challenge is wrong. Elden Ring is its own creature, with a different intended experience. It CAN be that, if the player chooses so, but it's not about that. Elden Ring is, in reality, the marriage of Dark Souls and Armored Core. ER is a build tailoring game. You fight a boss, find what keeps you from beating it, and leave to find the answer to that problem. With Mohg, it's the Purifying tear. With Malenia, you can argue it's the frost pot. Rykard is an obvious example: NO ONE fights him without the Serpent Hunter at least once. That's a change in your build to tailor it better to the fight you're presented with. But that's the thing about build tailoring games, they require either you learning what challenge you're facing and taking time to change up and prepare, or they require you to already know and go in pre-prepared. Invaders are the diametric opposite of that fundamental concept. Nothing about them works in that framework. You don't have the luxury of spending a life to learn where the problem is because if you do, you just lose. And you can't go into the fight prepared, as... Well, the person that invades you is random. Their build is virtually random. You're dealing with layers of this randomness that utterly defies the careful planning of your build. This isn't to say PvP in Elden Ring defies its core philosophy, in reality it's the opposite. Duels and the coliseum are perfect representations of ways you can plan a build to be well rounded for a PvP scenario. It's specifically invasions that are designed to follow the old, Dark Souls method that doesn't work anymore in Elden Ring. I also disagree with your setting aside of the toxic culture within invading and PvP in general. Invading isn't inherently evil - I disagree with it being inherently well-made for Elden Ring specifically, but it's not inherently evil. But when invading is largely cheating, disrespect, and toxicity, can you really argue that there's no expectation of evil? Is it wrong for the general playerbase to expect nothing but pain from getting invaded? I still have trauma from going Human in Parish to summon Solaire (the real G of Dark Souls) immediately getting invaded by Giantdad or a full Dark Bead setup. I fully understand why so many folks just alt+F4 when they get invaded, because in almost every case there's no reason to expect enjoyment from invasions. You have the most charitable view of invading I can conceive of and it's because of your love and passion for the games and series. But I think it's negligent to assume as much of the invading experience is as good as you do. Now, I'm not an invader, and by no means do I participate in PvP in these games. I seek to master the world through knowledge, understanding, and planning. I'm not here for uncontrollable variables that take away from my ability to express myself through my carefully laid out plans. I like the feeling of watching my plan coming together because I spent hours working on it in game and away from the computer. As such, I'm not one to enjoy PvP in any sense. Furthermore, I don't know how Elden Ring PvP really feels. But from my few experiences in this game and in previous games, I haven't found any luck or joy. Bad faith is all I've experienced. You are the expert in this field, I will admit, and I don't want to come across as though I know more than you. You have the experience I don't and maybe through this you have a more accurate sense of the experiences that occur when engaging with this side of the game. Maybe it is much sunnier than I am aware of, and I come off as a cynic or pessimist. But your act and sense of roleplay, immersion, and honesty isn't something I think is reflected by many who do the same things you do. And that's a bad thing. More folk should be like you.
I think you've got a very valid view of the game, and though we may differ a lot in how we see things I want to address it in earnest here, though I will likely make a video on a related topic. To me, Elden Ring is Dark Souls 4. Specifically, it's Dark Souls 3 2. I know, that really doesn't feel like it's true and it's got a different name and specifically can deviate from the old conventions and all that. I think people who say it is it's own game have a perfectly reasonable point. My counterpoint is it just isn't different at all. It has extra steps, some forward, others back, and a lot to the side, but it is the same game. The way you make builds, the way you approach bosses, the way you explore dungeons, the way you interact with multiplayer, the way you do everything except travel the open world. The open world is the one thing that sets Elden Ring apart. For me, it's the worst part of the game by a mile, but it's still something that sets it apart. But every single other aspect is a direct copy-paste. I wish Elden Ring was a different game. Bloodborne is a different game and it's better for it. But Elden Ring is just Dark Souls. Frankly, it's a little worse than Dark Souls. Dark Souls had integrity. It had focus. It had a mission. Elden Ring is focused only on scope and spectacle. The map is big, the bosses are big, the hurdles are big, the lore is big. But if they just took out all the empty space between events, took out the duplicate bosses and catacombs, took out all the crafting and gathering, and took out the map, you'd have a really great Dark Souls game. Instead, we have a really good Open World game that hasn't managed to surpass it's predecessors. That has learned as much as it's forgotten. Elden Ring is as good as any other Dark Souls, but it's far from innovative where it counts. Maybe Shadow of the Erdtree can help to rectify all that, but a lot of the damage is done in my mind. I still love the game, I will continue to play it, but I find myself wishing another game was around the corner, rather than continuing to drag this one out. Regarding PVP, I think you just have to actually experience it from both ends to understand what it can be. Assuming it's toxic because it can be toxic isn't necessarily wrong, but it will stop you from ever truly understand it. That's really the whole point of the video. No one's experience is invalid because they don't care for a certain playstyle or aspect of the game, but if you don't engage with it in a sincere manner, you're leaving your opinions to stagnate. That's what I wanted to get across with my invasion story. I hated it, thought it was toxic, wanted to avoid it at all costs, blamed the invaders, talked myself out of it, everything I could do to make sure I didn't have to face it, but I was wrong. At least, I was wrong for what mattered to me. I wouldn't be the same sort of person I am today without learning invasions. I wouldn't have the same taste in games. I wouldn't be able to confidently say what I want in a game, because until I learned to invade I didn't know myself. Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Hopefully I don't come off as too jaded or hardline. I just want people to get the most from these games and I think multiplayer is too often overlooked in that regard.
I think invasions are fine in most souls games. The lack of covenants in elden ring was a good point that i hadn't given much thought on until you pointed it out, and definitely feels like a big missing part of elden ring. Usually the frustration with invasions come from the players themselves (twinking endgame gear, cheating with endless hp flasks, etc...) rather than the actual system itself. The exception in my experience where invasions really frustrated me was in dark souls 2, where there was no timer between invasions so somebody could camp one spot and invade you over and over as soon as you left the bonfire (especially as the playerbase dwindled and funneled the same people against the same people over and over). Couple that with the terrible soul memory system which made every death feel like a permanent black mark on your account which guaranteed being paired up with somebody higher level with every death (and possibly getting locked out of cooping with friends), and twink invaders/cheats- and well if you're lucky you can just go to another area and come back, if not you have to put that controller down for the night. One time where somebody with a 1shot twink mage build who clearly outgeared and outleveled me (no fighting chance) camped the bonfire at heide half a dozen times before i opted to go somewhere else stands out to me as an instance where it was definitely un-fun and trolling. Had no real issues with invasions in any other souls game, even the ones where i died often were fun and added variety and flavor to the game (and lots of great memorable moments) especially if doing a subsequent playthrough. Heck if nothing else that one annoying invasion was definitely memorable
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna talk about twinking in a future video. It's such an odd thing to address from a development stance. On the one end, it's really cool how powerful you can make a character even without traditional leveling. On the other end, being able to essentially guarantee a kill without giving the other player a chance isn't so much player vs player as it is player vs death. I personally draw a distinction between low level PVP, twinking for optimization, and griefing. It's a fine line that is pretty much guaranteed to do some damage. Dark Souls 2 is hilarious, and I love it for all its flaws. The PVP is so wonky and soul memory is borderline impossible to manage without a ton of foresight. They got it figured out a lot better in DS3 and Elden Ring, though there's still work to be done.
@emotionaljonxvx looking forward to it! You make a lot of good points and the videos are great. Also that point about the multi-player aspect of the game enhancing the singleplayer game, miyazaki probably couldn't say it better himself- I think iirc in an interview on ds1 or demon souls that's exactly the design decision he had in mind when asked about the multi-player aspect, so it's really cool seeing that implementation working out so well in practice
@@emotionaljonxvxsomething that's not talked about enough is everyone on Elden ring right now who's doing PVP is just camping there with Max summons turning off the taunters tongue as soon as you invade them so that it turns on to a 3 v 1 and with them always all the time to winking which is some people's reason for twinking as an invader then there's also just straight to people who will hide away like cowards and off to go somewhere where you can't reach and just wait for you to die or leave out of boredom you weren't able to do stuff like that and the other dark souls games because of their not being a mount like torrent and then there's just the AFK farmers who's depravity nose no bounds because they sit there and do f****** nothing they basically bought a game to sit down and not play the game and it can be frustrating as an invader myself constantly have to reach you or something because of a glitches or AFK farmers and such like that.
A timer is a good idea. Camping really is a problem, with the invader able to hide anywhere forever while being unable to deal against host side passivity.
the invasion system in ER is flawed itself. Every new souls game takes power away from the invader but ER took it a step too far. Most fights are 3 v 1 due to the limit of 4 players per session and while spammable aoe or projectile attacks are balanced when it comes to 1 v 1 in a 3 v 1 setting they become unbearable and all it takes is 3 brain dead players spamming smothing like storm blade for the invader to be unable to do anything. Then there is also the problem with overleveled phantoms wich is a first in souls games. You can be an invader at lvl 50 fighting a host that is around your level and 2 other phantoms that are lvl 500. Then there is also the problem of the pve enemies also hitting you (some of them at least). All this on top of the already present in other games things that tip the scales to the side of the host (like no friendly fire for host and phantoms) make invasions virtually impossible to win against any semi competent players. Twinking was always a problem in souls games but due to how invasions were made to be in ER it is a complete necessity at low levels since you will be fighting people that just aren't twinks because their level is actually too much to be considered that.
wow, you really opened my mind, i always play as co-op to help others bc i hated invaders (always i get invaded by some RoB user or one shot frenzy builds), but now i see those invasions as test to see if i get some better at the game or i must train more to be better, basically a new challenge. Thanks man
invasions in elden ring are just garbage a lot of the time, you spawn in, you realize all the enemies are gone, you roll your eyes and try to find the host, your turn the wrong corner, three people do the moon Viel ash of war at the same time, and then your back in que, fuck my life. it's not EVERY time, but fuck it might as well be.
Invasions without 6 player multiplayer and covenant invasion zones in an open world game where every weapon is a laser bomb that deals 1500 damage per second are pretty much guaranteed to be hot garbage. I'm so worried this game is going to kill souls-style PVP forever with the biggest title to date having among the worst experiences and turning off a lot of new players to the idea of PVP.
@@emotionaljonxvx as my first soulsborne game, elden ring had me worried about pvp in general going forward, I'm actually a little relieved that it's just this specific title that has it this bad. But yah elden ring pvp is pretty rancid right now
Very eloquent and nicely structured, and a very comprehensive address of the various perspectives on invasions and invaders, too! Very glad RUclips recommended this to me
My answer to start of the video yes you and other invaders are bad guys. My reasoning for this stance is within an hour of my first time playing dark souls I got invaded by a twink he allowed me to break my main weapon on him which took a while then parried me and killed me with the riposte. I put the game down for like six months had I not taken that break or had I been invaded every step of the way dark souls 1 would not be one of my favorite games. That invader and all the others after I picked the game back up made me dislike the very idea of pvp in souls games because they always popped up in the worst of times during my first run and the times that I did get the upper hand they just ran behind the army of enemies because there was no seed of giants in dark souls 1. Could I have gone offline? Yes but I didn't want to drop out because of player messages. I've tried pvp from both sides of the board and the only one I thought got it right was dark souls 2. if I had the option to play with friends with only ai invaders I doubt I would dislike elden ring as much as I do. I play for the lore I play for the story invaders for the most part aren't a part of that and as you asked at 6:10 it is different yes because I didn't buy the game for you I didn't buy the game to fight you I bought it to play elden ring. 6:40 other players aren't raptors they are other humans with a gun trying to off you and take your money while you are trying to deal of the velociraptors. 8:50 if this were the case there would be far more ai invaders nor is the spirit of the game hurt by playing offline. 9:30 You aren't the good guy you are breaking into someone's house and killing them or in the case of elden ring you as the invader see someone getting stomped out in the middle of the street and think my time to shine and you run in to start stomping as well. 10:38 Did being invaded immerse me? Nope takes me out of the game every time nor will I set any of what you asked aside due to invasions being in the game. You got to take the good with the bad if an invader cheats bunch of crap into my inventory and gets me banned that can only happen because he was allowed to invade me in the first place. 12:40 if I run out of content I put the game down till there is more pve content or when I want to revisit the same content otherwise I go play something else nor does an invader help me if my goal is to explore an invader in fact puts up walls that stop me from exploring. 13:55 I don't need you an invader for that I already spent 60 bucks for the game to do that. 16:52 Agreed the games are better when played with others but not invaders, invaders as you have mentioned many times in this video are not playing with others they are direct walls they are another thing stopping a player from passing go and collecting 200 dollars. 17:20 Again you overinflate the invader's worth not everyone wants to experience you.
You lost and couldn't handle it and that's OK but what's not ok is to apply some type of morality silly because you couldn't handle the loss. Do you act the same when you lose to a boss or powerful enemy? I picked up the og dark souls, got to the first enemy and quit for well over 6 months. But eventually I picked the game up again and had the patience to improve myself. I didn't go blaming everyone but myself like you. It takes awhile to like pvp because humans are tough opponents. I didn't start to proactively engage in pvp until ds3 the ringed city dlc because they had a boss that could be reset. I also only engaged when I had the advantage of summons at first. And then I started to enjoy fighting invaders and regular enemies and the chaos that caused. It took a long time before Invading became my reason for playing. But not once did I ever think invaders were bad people or a bad part of the game even when I got utterly destroyed
@@Lastofthefreenames Man I know I typed up a storm but you could at least read my comment in full because it feels like you didn't or you ignored every point I made in my comment, I know the souls community likes to say git gud on everything but come on. Here's the thing my friend I don't have to like pvp I don't want to play with you and I don't have to that's the end of the story. You and other folk that like to invade aren't entitled to my time you didn't buy my game. Silly morality? that is one of the key points this video is based on did you even watch it?
As someone who ever only play Sekiro and Elden Ring. I think the main issue is that invasion mechanic can not work with password summons. Looking at the past games, without password summon the co-op summon is a random stranger who helps you out. However in Elden Ring most coop summons that are going through the area are gonna be the host real life friend. The difference here is that when in past games its strangers fighting each other so if either of them died its "Goodbye Random stranger". While in Elden Ring Jimmy and Timmy just wants to play the game but now have to deal with a third party attacking them. and if ethier end up dying or taking too much damage they will have to reset the whole process again. Which means they feel there time got wasted, which leads to getting annoyed, which leads to animosity towards invaders. The "Interesting" experience falls apart if that experience is annoyance. Also doesn't help that you lose your mount(In a open world game) just to have access to multiplayer which leads to large zones being extra tiring. If fromsoft were to use these system again they have to straight up get rid of the password summonings or we just gonna have a repeat of what happened with elden ring multiplayer.
Yeah, the password system is a really good idea with really rough implementation. I think it worked pretty well in Dark Souls 3, though overleveled phantoms were about as much of a problem, just by virtue of having the areas be a lot more co-op friendly. Elden Ring discourages multiplayer at every turn and I think a lot of it is unintentional consequences of prioritizing exploration as opposed to dungeon crawling. When two or three friends want to get together to play, they have to give up a lot of other benefits and it makes everything take a lot longer. So with all the barriers and time sync bullshit, an ill-timed invader can be the last straw when they should actually be enhancing the experience. It's a domino effect. When I'm playing with friends, we're all just in discord running through the game separately, only summoning for challenging bosses as needed. It's honestly a big reason I have so few hours in Elden Ring compared to every other title. Not nearly as much fun for multiplayer, which overall really hurts my experience.
@@brojiro208 I only wish (and I understand why) that you could keep the same save between the mods. Because I'm so PVP focused I never get to indulge in a 4 Horseboys of the Frompocalyse playthrough.
I fully agree with this: the cost of losing an invasion should be losing your progress in a level, not that and having to go through an annoying rigamarole to resummon your friends. That and overlevelled phantoms need much more impactful automatic downscaling.
PVP works great in the legacy dungeons as it’s the closest experience to the one in the old games. You are actually an obstacle in their way. In the open world it’s just a drag for everyone, not to mention the solo hosts just taunters younger waiting to kill you
Agreed. It's a very obvious "This game is two games" sort of design flaw where they had this really cool new idea for an open world but it wasn't quite all that well suited to old mechanics. Maybe Shadow of the Erdtree can right the ship and give us a more focused evolution of their design.
If youre complaining about invaders, the answer is simple: Don't summon players Learn to play with the tools you have available without leaning on others to go kill all the mobs for you
The reason for invader to be is to balance the game. Having ur minions that can stun, dmg, heal, buff and can be ressumomed in any time without a risk, dosnt have much sense.
As an invader myself, I'm very glad to see a video put out like this that paints the picture in such a way from a philosophical standpoint behind what an invader actually is, and how it's actually a fundamental mechanic that is no different then other forms of enemies.
That's a good point to raise. What is a PVP build vs PVE build? I think these games have an incredible strength for making builds that work on both levels. I think more what you're highlighting is good build vs bad build, or often at lower levels, build against no build. It's certainly lopsided but that can be a big part of the fun, even though I'm sure plenty of people hate getting attacked while unprepared. I think there's a lot of room for discussion about how prepared you should ever be in a game that makes it clear you will face tremendous odds around every corner, but I also don't want to say that things can't ever be unfun. It's a spectrum with wide variance and I think that's a lot of what keeps it interesting. Thanks for the comment
"Jon! What is best in life?" Jon: "To take up arms against your peers and demonstrate the power you wield. Seek Violence. Seek Conflict. Seek Blood. Seek Death."
I've always viewed the invader (myself) as an intended, but not pre-determined part of the online experience. And invader dictates how they add friction/tension to a player's experience. A lot of Fromsoft enthusiasts will evangelize the "merit" of overcoming the challenge of these games, but seem to exclude invasions in that mentality. I became and invader because I got hooked on the experience of being invaded and not knowing what was going to be thrown at me.
I've always felt No-Hit runs in these games would be a lot more impressive if they weren't offline. Really demonstrate a mastery of every mechanic, rather than just the boss movesets and enemy placements.
@@emotionaljonxvx Couldn't agree more. I recently did a PvP runes only run and damn if it wasn't one of the toughest and most rewarding runs I've done in any of the games
@@emotionaljonxvx It's basically impossible to avoid every hit in pvp, not to say that subjecting your run to another guy's connection is just gambling.
One of the biggest problem with invasions in Elden Ring is how often hosts constantly get blues for back up or constantly summoning phantoms to help them like in DS3 or the other game. There's absolutely no drawback for hosts to just wait, if they can, for blues to help or retreating to the grace to summon their buddies over and over on top of the insane AoE spells and skills introduced in the game. I can't even use the Taunter's Tongue, which is dropped from a decently strong NPC you can't beat easily early on, to have a classic Soulsborne playthrough because odds are I'll be invaded by two players when I really only want the one player invading me at a time to spice up my run through a level which is also something I enjoyed doing as an invader. Also the lack of covenants for invaders, blues and co-op players to rise up in rank for tangible rewards really hurts the game's online co-op/invasion system. I have ZERO reason to invade or help other players since the most I get are a Rune Arc or furlcalling remedy I also won't use since the runes you get through co-op are a pittance. Volcano Manor and Mohg not having a covenant reward system was just terrible. Sure you do get the Volcano Manor rewards from Tanith but that's from beating NPCs which just isn't the same as invading players to rank up and earning the rewards. Like what if retrieving some blood item from Bloody Finger invasions to give Mohg or Varre or another Mohg related NPC to earn exclusive Mohg covenant spells and equipment like in the previous game's covenants? It'd be better than just invading for the sake of invading.
great video, man. my first ever soulslike was elden ring and i have been slowly getting into invasions and pvp in general. it's fun. i just wish i couldve experienced the covenants, and i might still do with the other souls games (cause im definitely playing em sometime)
Fortunately you can still interact with the multiplayer in at least one version of each game, so hopefully by the time you get around you'll be able to catch a glimpse of how cool they could be. Dark Souls 3 PVP is the most robust/reliable and the covenants are the most streamlined, but they're all incredibly jank (in good and bad ways).
Coming from someone who also started playing on Elden Ring : Do it The older games still hold up amazingly well and the covenants are an absolute blast; Ive been playing the older games while waiting for the DLC and im having an absolute blast
In college I took game design classes and something he said stuck with me. "Your job (as a game designer) is to lose, in the most elegant way possible". Also I really want to use the taunters tongue more now.
I love invasions, I have several characters made purely for them. My favorite one is one I roleplay as a Banished Knight Captain serving Godrick and invade purely in Stormveil with a Banished Knight halberd. I had a lot of fun there, no single invasion was boring
@@StreamlinedGaming_ Level 22 with +3 weapon. I use the halberd with the Stormcaller (frost-infused because it makes dealing with overlevelled phantoms easier but I'm gonna get a second one that's heavy to fight lone hosts), soreseal, great-jar's arsenal and erdtree's favor (the base one, I'm fighting my way to +1 now). And obviously the mirror talisman to look normally, I rp him as enemy in Stormveil so he's not a Bloody Finger, he's not even a Tarnished
My first encounter with an invader was at the beginning of Godrick’s castle. I had taken the side path, and had just taken down the guard before I saw that we were being invaded. I honestly felt scared since I felt like he could just jump out at me at any moment. However, when he walked underneath us, we both jumped down on him and took him down by surprise. Even though I won, it changed the way that I felt about summoning, since every time I summon, I risk an Invader coming in and making it more difficult than if I didn’t summon. If you get to call in a friend, the game does too.
I can live with invaders. It's fun jumping them with a friend or two. Gank City in ds3 was simply amazing for example. We spent hours there trying to survive as long as possible. Good memories.
Ganking in Ringed City, High Wall, Crucifixion Woods, and Post-Pontiff is literally how I got any of my friends to try PVP long-form. It's great fun and it's a really good way to learn the basics. Really wish they would have paid more attention to those sorts of facilities in Elden Ring, instead of making me run for 50 hours. I hate running.
I wish there was a covenant I could join to summon me to help invaders against hosts or a purple neutral "mad phantom". I like coop, but I'd rather help the reds than the ganking hosts.
I think Elden Ring invasions can add a little spice to the runs I have with my friend. Sometimes though, it is really frustrating to get to a certain point only to be faced by an opponent who either cheats (in a previously deleted comment, I touched on being invaded just 4 hours into the release of SotE and someone invaded, 1-shotting my friend and I with the Incant you get from beating the final boss of the DLC, and in another case, had someone who randomly invaded, and when we got close, what looked and sounded like 10+ Sorcery effects went off all at once accompanied an explosion and glintstone animations around the invader, we both died, and they teabagged.), or just runs for cover behind a bunch of enemies to take potshots, or in some cases, hides behind enemies like the Winter Lantern-like enemies near Midra's Manse and refuses to do anything until we approach (we repeatedly got invaded by the same guy who kept trying to do this, so we couldn't finish the area for HOURS). Sure, there are some good, fun invasions, even among those we lose, but there is no small amount that are just trash people trying to be d!cks, in my personal experience.
I love being invaded as a host in Elden Ring and DS3. Good times every time. I usually use Taunter's tongue and Dried Finger in most areas when I play in NG+
I agree that invasions are fair, but invaders also need to accept that some people are just trying to beat a boss with some help or have a chill time with friends, and those people will do whatever they can just to get you out of their world, including using “broken” stuff and spamming
I'm certainly of the mindset that all's far in invasions. People can be nice or mean or whatever, but nothing is off-limits. I think fairness is always gonna come second to chaos, and I love that. Even if people are just trying to chill, there are lots of better games for that sort of thing, not that they should necessarily have to go elsewhere. It just feels a little off to not embrace every aspect of the game just because it might chafe sometimes. Thanks for the comment!
In my circle, I haven’t ever heard anyone complain about invaders. Most of the time if they complain it’s about the players themselves and not the mechanic of invasions. Usually it’s someone who twinked end game gear or is using one of the many exploits that have been present that make people frustrated. I personally love invasions and I enjoy invading as well. With Elden ring I’ve seen more invaders complain about the fact that they can’t invade a single player. But to that I say “this isn’t dark souls”. This game was designed in a way that more people would play and actually get to complete the game. Miyazaki had made comments about his disappointment that not many of the people who bought dark souls games actually completed them. It’s pretty obvious that Elden ring was their way of addressing that. I do feel like the difficulty of this game is optional. summons, mixed physick, Great Runes, ashes, posture breaking, and no designated invasion areas all make this game incredibly easy. But also it’s optional. And really you can make the game as easy or difficult as you want. Anyways, great video man.
I's definitely the sort of thing that I feel most people who invade (or know someone who does) aren't all that confused by its value. I also see a lot of people leaving me comments and on the internet more broadly insist that invasions are a terrible mechanic and they should be removed from the game. The video is really just to talk through its value, though I'm sure those people wouldn't be convinced. Thanks for watching!
@@emotionaljonxvx definitely have seen people say things like that… I was hoping it was a loud minority lol for sure, appreciate the analysis/perspective your videos give! I’m actually making a game with a friend and videos like this and others you’ve made are very insightful. Helps understand what mechanics are actual fun to incorporate. Keep it up bro 👉😎👉
It's an intended game mechanic. That said, it's also totally valid to not like the invasion aspect, I know I don't. I basically never play PvP in any games, as it just isn't fun to me. I like, that you have to do something optional and avoidable to be invaded, but I don't know whether tying it to Co-op (aka an option mainly used by new and unexperienced players and by people who just want to goof around with friends) was the right solution.
Really what I'm getting after is that if more people engaged with it in an interested and sincere way, they could learn something about the game and about themselves that otherwise they might never experience. I'd never fault anyone for not liking it, but I think a lot of that mentality come from not giving it a real try and only experience it at its worst.
Are you the bad guy? yes, yes, no discussion, YES but that's fine now in ER you can ONLY invade people who have support to begin with, so i'd feel even less bad about it 😂
@@Sujamma_Enjoyer i'd say the other way around but then, either way is fine it is a gameplay-mechanic that was put in and balanced very intentionally not making use of it is an arbitrary limitation, plus it's fun (for me at least)
@@Sujamma_Enjoyer i assume they are not supportive of the feature? I see it this way: In ALL 'Souls-Games' since Demon's Soul (except Sekiro) have invasions been a feature. There have always been some who disliked this feature. Proponents would say either just play offline or don't play it. And no one had to unplug the ethernet-cable or unplug the router. There was an opion on the menu to play offline. But for Elden Ring they added even a further layer of protection from invasions. One can only be invaded of one ACTIVELY opens themselves up for multiplayer. 2-on1-situations for players are non existent in Elden Ring. I am not arguing from a lore perspective, but a gameplay perspective and what i believe what was the intention of developers for the experience of the game. And on this aspect i think i agree with this video. 'Good' or 'Bad' are moral labels based on our subjective judgements towards others. I simply would not call other players 'bad' or 'evil' - i disagree on that point with the video, but not for the content but for the semantics. And like i said, for me it's a fun part on top.
Never feel bad about invading especially if you like actually fighting as a taunter's tounge user the worst experience I can think of is sitting there waiting for someone to show up for like 5-8 minutes and when I finally do get someone they just run around the map hoping that I'm stupid enough to let them gank me
I wish there was a way for solo players to be open to invasion without having to be in co op or having to be actively inviting a fight club via taunter's tongue. Like maybe rune arcs should be more common, or even free, but also open players up to invasion. I also wish we had proper covenants. You can feel the empty holes in this game where covenants should have been.
I thought Dark Souls 3 had it down pretty well with the co-op/invasion mechanics but I'm sure they just forgot / focused elsewhere. It's a damn shame and I hope the DLC can be a return to form for a lot of those mechanics in at least some way.
Ah yes, give the player LESS reason to use Rune Arcs. Seriously, most players forget Great Runes are even in the game as is. Making a higher penalty for them would just make people never use them.
It was nice to see the perspective of my enemy... You've made a very good point. Though my biggest issue with invasions is the latency. It makes the game unpredictable in a bad way, which kinda sucks in my opinion
That and some other issues. I legit don't think invaders should stick around if you're fighting a field boss. If an HP bar shows up. The invader should be Thanos snapped back to their world, like with the fog walls. Don't mind me, venting a bit because this morning. I was helping a host fight the ice dragon on the frozen lake. And an invader backstabbed and killed them while the dragon was doing an AoE.... Plus, not fond of the meta for this game. From what friends have told me. DS2 had a pretty good invasion meta....
@@DataDrain02 The boss can damage the invader, he acts like a medium co-invader. A field boss can't act as a fog wall unless you kill invasions in the whole area.
Invading (typical red) is evil, in every souls game it is portrayed as such, it is part of the role playing aspect, you have cops that come in and help host, you have executioners who hunt the gulty, and you have defenders. Red invaders are even called a dark spirits. The reason people hate invaders is because (pvp is kinda ass and far removed from pve) and also because there is no consistent difficulty. Every enemy, every boss, every level is built on providing consistant difficulty throughout the game, dying is just an opportunity to learn and try again and ultimately win, miyazaki always wants the player to eventually beat the obstacles ahead with the tools given. (Stated in many interviews) Invaders are not that, they are a wildcard thats thrown in the level for the soul purpose of chaos, they do not provide the host with an opportunity to win eventually, the thing that every other part of the game is built around, theres no garanty youll even run into that same player again. So no, they are not the same as consistant boss AIs and enemy placements. Another thing that these games always got wrong was the balance for invasions, the host who is unskilled and unaware of pvp strats goes up against an experienced pvp player and as well as all the enemies from the level, it is extremely skewed against the host, when the invader uses the enemies in the level, (if you want a proper duel, just place your damn red sign on the ground.) It was only ever addressed in ds3 in the form of priority invasions but still, you can invade someone solo and you will always have the upper hand, and no the 30% health buff from ember is not enough help to the host who has to deal with an invader who can use the levels enemies against them. Elden ring did the right thing by removing default solo invasions and making it purely a counter balance for hosts summoning help, however they shouldve still kept some form of item that allows it for those who like that experience and actually like the shitty pvp in these games (like me), taunters tongue is just not it.
You're definitely raising some good points. I will say those experiences with unskilled hosts are not always true and there's a whole spectrum to how an invasion plays out. That's sort of the point. There is no guaranteed experience. Sure, anecdotally it may seem definitive that the invader will show up to grief you into oblivion because that's what they do, but in reality there are plenty of experienced hosts looking to grief invaders. If unskilled or fresh players are turned off by invasions, that's tragic, but the game gives them options to not interact with them. In that sense, the system works as intended. It's not perfect, far, far from it, but the imbalance and chaos are so much of what I find appealing about it. Thanks for the comment, always appreciate discussion
In lore invaders are bad guys but in reality that’s just not the case most new players likely think this that it’s just some guy who invades some new players world and ruins the experience for them But what it tends to be in invasion now and in dark souls is one of two things Either a new player who is being carried through the game by their friend, essentially truly ruining the experience for them giving them all these overpowered items and then killing the bosses for them Or it’s Gankers really the true bad guys of invasions these are players who will min Max and exploit every advantage they can to fight invaders as a team they typically sit in one area after killing off all of the NPC‘s surround it so that when an invader joins they have no support so they can just beat down on this invader and that really seems to be the only reason they do it they just are looking for someone to abuse Especially in Elden now their able to do this very easily because of things like the taunters tongue and you can really only invade players who have one or more players with them Ultimately from all my experience I’ve had from dark souls 2 dark soul 3 and Elden ring it’s pretty clear. Invaders are really the good guys who are there really just teach players the game, no different from fighting a boss but more times than not they are the victims of players with malicious intent
It's a complex topic for sure. I really try to embrace the idea that there is no such thing as a good guy or bad guy in competitive gaming, only opponents. Everyone is part of the experience and some people are going to do what they can to ruin it for others, but even on that level I still find it an interesting and at least somewhat valuable part of the overall experience. These games aren't balanced in any meaningful way and that's something I love about them.
@@emotionaljonxvx If we are going to use labels like bad guy it’s definitely the players who make it their mission to 3v1 using duel bleed naginata,sleep crescent halberd storm stomp ashs and numerous exploits like carian retaliation exploit or just straight up cheating Ultimately yes the game is unbalanced but that’s never stopped the souls borne series from having a thriving pvp community with content creators like Chasethebro oroboro Jeenine steelovsky etc everyones aware of it but it’s a good experience regardless of the many flaws
"Have you ever felt the joy of invading? With your whole being, the pox upon life itself. Feared and despised by all. The Reviled blessing. Apparently not. You are but a lamb. A stranger to invasions. Ignorant to your own ignorance. You no longer interest me. I've been long without peace. Don't spoil my quietude."
Hi Jon, Invader of 4 years here. I always (unless I immediately get ganked or see a perfect ambush opportunity) walk up and say hello and let my opponent power up because I want to beat them at their best. For me, invasion is all about the challenge like you said at the end of your video. I want to be able to beat 3-man teams on my own and get awesome clips, so that's why I try to let my opponent have a moment prepare themselves. Love your vid, have a great day!
I mean narratively, yeah. The Golden Order loyalists & Two Fingers faithful are far from 'good' guys, but the recusants & bloody fingers who hunt them are basically outright villainous. But a good game needs some good bad guys, right?
I’m sorry 9:35 is kinda ridiculous logic to me. Imagine breaking into a house and being like “ I’m not the bad guy robbing u , you’re the bad guys stopping me from stealing ur shit “ 😂 .
The only reasons I hate being invaded are never really about being invaded it self. It's more about if the invader is roided up to an insane degree, or the latency is so awful that the fight just sucks in general. I think being invaded is the coolest thing in these souls games. And I honestly think most players share my point of view. The bad guys in my opinion are Fromsoft. They absolutely butchered the Invasion gameplay in Elden Ring. I always try to invade since I liked that role before. But now when I invade, I'm up against 3 v 1 scenario where I'm never going to win. And whenever I did get close. They just ran in to the boss arena. I just want a good old 1v1 Invasion were a player needs to deal with the invander and respect it's pressence.
It depends on the invader I think. Watchdogs of Farron and Forest Guardians? They're cool guys. Bloody Fingers and Rosarias Fingers? They're just get a little silly. Aldritch Faithful? Brother, Red invaders and hosts teamed up against them for a reason. Also, you absolutely can memorize every single ability ever, I would be terrified if I ever encountered ChasetheBro. He is ALWAYS locked in.
Invasions are extremely immersive - until you hit the meta level and 95% of the invaders are using cheated consumables (namely golem great arrows and starlight shards) to spam you from a mile away or from around a corner.
Great video! ER was the first game I really started invading. I started by turning on TT while running through levels until I had the confidence to handle 1v1s. After that invading almost became an addiction, it was so fun!
I basically only play these games for the pve because I love the bosses and its just hard to enjoy the mechanic of invasion, when fighting other online players seems like its a endless back and forth of attacks that feel like they shouldn't hit but do then attacks that feel like they go right through someone, and shadow hits that don't do damage but proc bleed anyway. to me fighting a boss is great because every hit feels earned and every time I get hit its a mistake I made, but every time I fight a player its just someone abusing systems and tactics that I just am unaware of because I never pvp. all said though great video I just wish I could agree.
I get where you're coming from and anyone who tells you the PVP is high-quality is trying to abduct you. But seriously, it's the sort of thing where you won't get anything quite like it in another game, so I'd seriously recommend giving it a serious shot. There's a decently steep learning curve and it takes practice, but maybe even just ganking with a few friends might show you something about the game you never would experience otherwise. I've abducted countless friends into my blood cult using ganks and none of them are allowed to complain!
@@emotionaljonxvx I honestly have thought about invading before but exactly like you said I never really wanted to be "the bad guy" and also like you said the system has always felt weirdly complicated to me, but I might have to join the cult for new content on this painful wait for the dlc lol
Dark Souls 1 will always be the most fun invading. I used to invade Anor Londo before O&S relentlessly for months, and it was always a joy catching a freshly human host with their pants down, running for Solaire's sign. It will never be better than being able to invade a solo host the moment they decide they don't want to be made of beef jerky. Here's hoping they add an area in the DLC where you are open to solo invasions!
Subscribed, Always been Blue hunter thanks to playing the Darksouls series got invaded a lot so now I protect. I love the arena with 1v1 it's the top PvP matches I've ever had and an agreement, Invaders are never invited. I'm glad you have a choice in Elden ring, Darksouls you never had a choice. Thanks for the video Jon😀
In my initial and my recent replaythroughs of Dark Souls 3, invasions have always done one thing: pissed me off. They've never made me feel more immersed or awoken something "primal" within me, it has exclusively irritated me that another player makes the active decision to invade my world and kill me with the most aggravating builds and playstyles. I've had invaders that act like they want a duel until they run out of estus and go hide behind a group of knights. I've had invaders that utilize their pitiful connections to ruin my experience. I've had invaders that gank me while I'm playing solo because there is apparently a singular individual still playing DS3 as a Watchdog of Farron. I've had the whole rainbow of invaders and not one of them has improved my experience with the game, in fact detracting from my enjoyment and immersion in every single interaction. However, the way you have described invading in your video has caused me to reflect and think about it from a new perspective. From a world perspective. Of course, we can't do anything about metamancers, cheaters, spotty connections, etc. And those will all always be irritating, in any game. But I think that, when I play Elden Ring for the 9th time soon, I will opt into invading and being invaded. Somehow, you have made this sound so appealing to me. Even if half of them go to shit, and they're not always fun, I think it might add to the experience. I suppose I should see for myself. Thanks for giving me a new outlook on this!
Normally I am a Invasor with Honor and Pride, but as the Bow Bandit Leader, I love to gank and torture the big Streamer live. Most of them are delusional and uses Glitches to win hard fights, no mercy. Only Peeve, he has the Bow Bandit Leaders Respect 😌
I never had a problem with the concept of invasions in these games. I remember the sudden terror in the older Souls games, when I'm deep in a level, low on resources, and suddenly seeing the invasion prompt come up. I knew then that I had to do whatever it took to survive what was coming: it was like the ultimate boss was coming after me. It was visceral, it was thrilling... it was fun. If I died, well, then no real difference than what the game itself was doing to me. Hostile, uncaring world and all that. Hell, I did my own share of invasions as a Blue Sentinel/Darkmoon Blade. Hunting down the guilty was fun, and it gave it's own feeling of passing down righteous retribution. However, I can't help but feel that a small segment of players sort of ruined the experience. You had the overpowered twink type players who would show up with overpowered weapons and builds in lower level areas just to harass new players. You had gank squads set up just to bully invaders, seemly at first as retaliation for being harassed, but later just used as a trolling tool itself. It was like an arms race of jerk tactics going on, all while most other players just wanted to play the game. And don't get me started on the ones who were cheating... I honestly think it was stuff like this, and the resulting attitudes about invaders by a lot of players, that was the cause for how invasions were set up for Elden Ring. It's now something that has to be opted into. It's nice giving players a choice, but I can't help but think it's something more players would rather opt out of than experience.
I think the griefing and ganking and twinking definitely takes its toll on the community, but I think Elden Ring has just made a mistake by diminishing the experience rather than adjusting it. In Dark Souls 3 they made a big adjustment by added weapon level to the matchmaking. Made it a little harder to find people, but made low level invasions way more palatable. No more one-shot builds or anything like that. Still overpowered gear and whatnot, but I would have liked to see them expand on that sort of balancing rather than making the whole system opt-in. I really hate what Elden Ring has done to the multiplayer, despite being an incredible game. I think there's a good middle ground and they just haven't focused on it, but I remain hopeful. Thanks for the comment!
@@emotionaljonxvx I have to agree with you about the Elden Ring invasions being less impactful than in the older Souls games. While it is a nice gesture to let gamers opt in, it ultimately means that invasions aren't treated as a fully integrated part of the experience. Having other players be part of the overall threat of the game world was an important aspect of these games, and diminishing that just feels like a shame. I don't say this as someone who really invades others, as I really don't (not in Elden Ring, anyway), but as someone who appreciates the uncaring environment these games were putting us in.
i totally agree though, multiplayer suffered big time in elden ring.. i hope it was because of the huge world they made and not having enough time to refine multiplayer. which was a bad choice. i really hope they do something for the dlc otherwise elden ring multiplayer will die out quicker then any other souls game before
Mind that you can only invade when the invaded popped a remedy, which means in almost all cases it's a 2v1 and the odds are usually in the favour of the one being invaded
Yeah, they've tilted the odds pretty hard but there's still a wide range of experiences to be had. I miss solo invasions a little but really I miss 4v2 and 3v3. Those were fights!
It's a little tongue-in-cheek but it's meant to answer essentially a strawman argument I have in my head from comments I've seen here and elsewhere. All in good fun, I assure you.
As a veteran invader from og demon souls I invade to be prepared for anything. Fight clubs/ solo duels / 1v3 I come prepared and ready for blood I’ve slain many and with the new dlc coming out many more to be slain. I gotta a lot of hate mail or “ggs” I dedicate myself to craft a nice PvP build and go around wrecking havoc all over the lands betweens (:
absolute banger of a video. ive always had a respect for invasions but this video really makes me excited for them. there's some people i need to convince about invasions being good, actually, and this video puts it better than i ever could
Invasion and multiplayer in these games is the most fun, but its so poorly implemented it makes the experience so horrible. I hope for their next title or dlc they thoroughly look into this, looking at how many people are still online playing this after 2 years
They could stand to make it a lot better. I love it for what it is, especially since there's no real alternative, but I completely agree it needs a ton of work.
I have played every souls game offline. I don't see any appeal to connecting them online, only detriments. Summoning a cooperator increases the bosses health, player ghosts are annoying, and it opens you to griefing from other players. No thanks.
Hello my fellow invader! gotta keep Kaathe well-fed am I right? I appreciate all the points you make, especially your intro and its interrogation of the possible in-game moral alignments, very cool! Does anyone remember the moral alignment chart for covenants back in Dark Souls? I really like how you argue that being invaded: anywhere, anytime - adds an element of terror that allows the host to potentially rise to this challenge with bravery. I remember being invaded all through Dark Souls (1,2,3, blood, etc..) and while there were definitely times I got killed before I could reclaim my dropped souls (usually sitting in the boss room, or behind some tough enemy), and that this loss was frustrating; it never came close to the thrill pvp. Player to player engagement adds layers of chaos, intrigue, and unpredictability; that in my opinion, is the lifeblood of these games!
Absolutely well fuckin said man, it always irritated me when all these communities formed with nothing but ER casuals complaining about the idea of invasions and even pvp as a whole, but they refuse to acknowledge the fact that pvp was and always will be the veiled game mechanic that makes the souls game always shine. Other than close friends who are OG souls players like myself, you are one of the only people I’ve heard who actually gets it. 10/10 vid homie, you just earned a sub
Invasions were put in the game because Miyazaki thought it would be fun to have human controlled enemies. It is fun. I love getting invaded. As an invader am I the bad guy? Yes! I'm not in your world to help you I'm here to murder you! But its all in good fun. Its a video game. You don't lose anything if I win except a minute or two of progress from the last site of grace.
Exactly. I just wish more players new to the series understood that even if invasions were a personal attack, the consequences are basically non-existent. Maybe it's a compliment to just how immersive the design is.
I mean, as a co-operator. I usually lose that whole session. And, more often than not. Don't get summoned again. So, I get an incomplete story when a host dies. So, it's more than a "few minutes" on my end.
I've really only played ER, never been invaded since I never summoned a Coop, but I do enjoy being a cooperator , ya know helping people out. Never had a problem with imvaders, usually I just play silly around them with a torch or crossbow, until some funny guy chooses to pull out some weird glitch and instakill us all. Mad respect to any other type of not glitching invaders, they tend to be pretty chill.
As a regular invader i can safely say that Soulsborne PvP is a great example of everyone involved being shitty. I cannot tell you how many times i've been ganked or encountered people who had no actual intention of fighting, both being downright rude after despite me not getting to do literally anything. If you don't want invaders then please, *for fucks sake* , turn the tongue off. If you don't wanna fight, neither do we. It'll save us all precious time.
I just clicked on the video and haven’t heard you out yet, but wanted to give my 2 cents as both an invader and coop enjoyer. Yes, invaders are the bad guys, and I honestly love that about it. It’s kind of the truest form of good and evil in an online game imo. But what would you call someone who’s sole purpose is to hunt down and kill the host while he’s not bothering you in any way shape or form, that’s villainous; and I wouldn’t have it any other way 😂
The immersive aspect you pointed out is actively why I love invasions and hate what they did to them since, arguably, Bloodborne. When I started the series I considered invasions to be awful because why would a random asshole get into my world just to kill me ? That's bullshit. But the more I played and the more I enjoyed this aspect because this community feature (whether you like it or not, that's what it is) injects so much life into the world of those games as well as make the gameplay more intense. There's nothing more intense than going through an area of the game, having used most of you ressources, begging to find the next bonfire and having so much souls you don't want to lose. The level of DREAD that permeates the game now from the sole possibility that maybe an invader can come at any point is exhilarating. I don't think even overcoming a difficult boss is as satisfying as defeating an invader that was ready to end you when you had so little to help you out. And as a solo player, it's fucking incredible. But in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring ? The world felt empty. I was advancing through levels, not once afraid of what would happen because the invasion rate for solo players in DkS3 is abysmal and ER simply got rid of it. "Just use the Dried Finger/Taunter's Tongue" but it's not the same. If I use those items I'm not longer dreading the possibility of an invader to come, I'm ACTIVELY asking them to join my world. The experience is immediately different, the dread disappears because the certainty is here and it changes the perpective from you're in a world with other players that may come for you as much as some can help you to your world is your own and you decide who gets in. That's not as interesting to me. It's a shame that the invading system as been changed to focus on co-op only and while I know it's primarly to balance the strength of playing in a group, it's legitimately a loss on my part, I felt like I lost a feature that was the cornerstone of the Souls experience because a lot of people (and especially new players) complained about unfair it was that an enemy that wasn't braindead actually could adapt to them when those games never actually made you lose anything substantial when you died more than once.
I, too, lament the loss of that sense of dread that was in Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2. I love the PVP of Dark Souls 3, but mostly because of the large scale battles, rather than the novelty of what an invasion meant. It's a trade that is better for some playstyles and worse for others, but I think Elden Ring just made that trade worse. Maybe the next title will give us what we need.
@@emotionaljonxvx Yeah it's really a shame, I really don't enjoy this direction despite Elden Ring embracing PvP by creating balance specifically for that mechanic which I never thought would happen at all. It's one of the reason that Sekiro, despite being an incredible game, is probably the souls game I've played the least with Bloodborne (too lazy to boot up my ps4) BECAUSE it's devoid of any online interactions with other players.
Nice content, may I suggest the addition of subtitles? It's quite easy since you can just copy paste your script and youtube will figure out the timings.
It was never about the runes, it's about tradition. As my giant father before me, and his giant father before him
Well said
If only I could be so grossly incandescent 👑
Invaders were never the bad guys the real bad guy is flippin havel
THE LEGEND *NEVER* DIES
In memory of our giant dad
As someone who only started invading in Elden Ring, I really wish that we had a covenant system or some way to feel like you’re invading for more than just the sake of invading. It’s interesting to hear about previous souls games and how the pvp was much more ingrained with the story. In Elden ring you’re either a crazy dude obsessed with blood or a crazy dude obsessed with killing your kin.
Yeah I've played ds1 and 3 pirated and also very late into their existence so I never got to experience any of that stuff. Honestly at the very least I wish I got more 1v1 invasions. Ig as is isn't too bad but my last attempt at a pvp character really soured me on it since it was low level and everyone had overlevelled people carrying
May chaos take the world 🔥
being invaded reminded me to level my vigor 👍
Good man.
I didn’t get invaded for most of my first playthrough so I didn’t get that message Lol
Good lesson learned. It's all fun and games till someone with a weapon as big as they are presses 2 buttons and sends you back to your last grace lol
VIGOR CHECK!!!!!!!!!
Demon's Souls invader here. Personally, I invade to protect the host against themselves- because after you beat the game, won't you feel empty? Disappointed? Forced to face reality again?
Not on my watch. I invade to save players from all of that. The more times I stop you, the more times you respawn, the longer this dream can continue.
We are the thin red line
I like it, self-glorification through your own lens no one else will see through
@@M.A.R.S.i think 17 people and counting can see the vision bud
Based individual.
You provide an essential service to the community
I don't like invading, but I love Invaders. Whether I'm Gold or Blue, fending off an Invasion is my favorite feeling, so I'm in complete agreement. I almost never summon for help myself, so I rarely get to be the host- but when I feel like it, I go to this lovely little copse north of the shack on the western edge of Liurnia, where the Harpy sings, and use the Taunter's Tongue so I can give Invaders a memorable duel set to music.
Unfortunately you are sort of ruining the experience for invaders because if they wanted to duel they would just go into the coliseum. Personally I sever everytime I get a solo host and usually just block them. Being a blue is fine, I just wish if this game detected that a blue was summoned then it would try to get a second invader because most of the time a blue comes along with 2 other people and now it’s 3v1 against the invader with no hopes for a 3v2 as the player count gets maxed out. There’s ways to make that work but situations like that lead to those invaders that everyone hates who will just run the whole time and camp the group out otherwise they will just get blendered in 2 seconds. The other way around that is for the invaders to use the most broken load outs in the game so they have a chance at winning a 3v1. Which is really a shame because I think the cosplay builds like the one being shown in the video are extremely fun for both parities but I’m sure he could attest that it falls short in a 3v1, often times with one of the summons being a level 200+
When you first get to farum azula you gotta try clearing the middle section of the map near the lightning dragon summoning a couple tarnished then you run down to where the worm faces are use taunters tongue near the worm face boss the worm faces there also attack invaders
Hell yeah bro, i fw the setting you provide! Don’t listen to the other guy, invaders who avoid duels are boring anyway. You aren’t “ruining” the experience, I’m always down for a 1v1 / 2v2 any day of the week, I don’t shy away from a friendly duel just because I’m queuing for an invasion. In all honesty, I’m just looking for a fun PvP experience. I might even have more fun in a 1v1 duel against a solid player than 3v1 gank where I then have to kill 2 more blues that get summoned instantly and then the host DCs at the end anyway lmao. Obviously I’d much prefer an organic invasion of players going through the level, but this far into the game’s lifecycle, i can’t reasonably always expect that and am perfectly fine with a duel or even ganks. Some ganks are incredibly spammy and toxic but it is what it is, the game isn’t designed to be in our favor.
@@illusion6477 people had to work hard for most of the gank spells and weapons to be fair
Exactly, if your "invasion experience" gets "ruined" by having to 1v1 every now and then, you are mentally weak. @@illusion6477
I've tasted the blood of thousands; and thousands more will be tasted... wait that doesn't sound right
Vampire Chad
When you spawn in as a hunter in the Lake of Rot, see a poor invader getting picked off by the host and sunbro with magic and arrows while desperately trying to reach them, dying to the damage and rot, then getting t-bagged by the other two while you watch on unwilling to attack the invader out of guilt, you'll realise that invaders are people too.
Meh, it's called "karma". If the invaders want to cause suffering. You gotta be able to take that same suffering. So, I have no pity for them.
@@DataDrain02no, invaders aren’t out to “cause suffering”. It’s been said before that Invaders are meant to be just any other really strong enemy. If you’ve got the mindset that everything is just out to get you then nothing will be fun.
@@futuristicbus61 Tell that to the ones who intentionally use oneshot builds that are long range. And use the move from an area where they can't be seen or heard.
Or, the ones who just endlessly run away from you on a field. (One time, I used the TT and had this exact thing happen.... I eventually had to jump off a cliff to make it stop.)
@NicktheLongman This comment makes me feel so genuinely seen 🤣
@@DataDrain02suffering is different for everyone. But the red that just made you " suffer" would most likely pull you out of a real fire and not keep pushing you back in it. It's just a game. For someone to win someone has to lose.
One thing I've noticed is the general invader culture. You would expect the invader to be a brutal and ruthless foe only out for their own, here to claim the host's resources for their own gain. (humanity in DS1 and embers in DS3) Yet there exist somewhat of a loose etiquette, most won't go for the host first, most will wait for you to deal with NPC enemies if you are on your own, some will even lead struggling players to the next grace before fighting, few will be the bastards you expect going for cheap tactics and twinking. That variety is what I love is about souls PVP.
Absolutely! Invaders, like every other type of player, are not a monolith. These games facilitate all sorts of playstyles and it really let's people's personality shine through their characters.
Yeah it’s part of how we play all games with other people an experience player will try to avoid ever beating an opponent 3 times in a row unless they want to stop playing
Not on pc ... on pc its "get cheat engine for rot bolusses or play seamless"
Yeah we don't talk about the virgins with Rot pots and double infused Antspurs or rot breath users at lvl 20 and below.@@CrzyLion
I used to be like that, enough rot breaths and ganks made me instantly attack everyone unless they spot me first and clearly act friendly to me
I dont mind invaders, i mind invaders who invade in early game areas (like Limgrave) with endgame spells then act like theyre the coolest players ever when they body you with sheer firepower.
Considering passwords are a thing, it's the other way around. The invader also had to have the stats/actually play the game to grab said spells
It can be extremely frustrating to play against someone who has a clear advantage, but it can certainly go both ways. My point is really to highlight that the game never demands the player to be of a specific skill or power level and multiplayer can refute or reinforce that notion in a lot of ways. That's what makes it so cool, even if it sometimes sucks.
I dont mind co-opers, i mind co-opers who password summon in early game areas (like Limgrave) with endgame spells then act like theyre the coolest players ever when they body you with sheer firepower.
There r way more gankers and coopers with endgame loot, than invaders. Lol
@urufu1046 I hadn't started invading because I was still going through early game when I first made the comment. You are totally correct tho!
I love the invasion mechanic, but as it is, I don't find it very immersive. My reason for it is that the game tells you the invader's name, and is especially immersion-breaking to me when it's a real person's username. I feel like the best way to handle it is to keep the invader's identity vague until you meet him in the world. Instead of "Dark Spirit xXB1gD1CKD4ddYXx has invaded your world!" I think it would be cooler for a message to slowly fade in reading "You feel a dark presence lurking within your world..." with no further explaination.
"Someone has come to evict you from this palace" would also be a very apt touch
Players complaining about invaders having "advantages" are ridiculous. Red by default has only two: PVEs don't attack him (and it can be taken away from him) and he knows more or less where the host is. That's it. Host has: at least one summoned co-op player, no friendly fire, full amount of flasks (invaders are halved), equal or (usually) higher level than invader, Blue Sentinels or equivalents. That's al lot of advantages. Oh, "the invader comes prepared and you are not"? That's not inherent quality of invader nor a host. A noob red might invade a gank of veterans, nothing guarantees skill level of connected players, this isn't a ladder game. I myself invaded a duo of players who ganked in a lake spamming lighting spells - oh, they were prepared. You open yourself to invasions be prepared to be invaded, it's simple.
No one wants to admit it, but main reason people complain about invasions is beacause they were not only defeated, but defeated but a human player. That is the reason why someone might die 30 times to a boss and persevere, but when invaded they hide, commit suicide and even disconnect. This isn't the death that's the problem, but the fact that someone somewhere killed your character and (gasp!) might had a laugh at your cost.
Also, about etiquette: if you think reds are mean, try invading yourself and see how scummy hosts can be. Cheaters, disconnecters, gankers, AFK farmers - eventually you will grow to hate the playerbase. First five invasions in Elden Ring (my first playtrough, I was doing them for a quest) teached me that acting freindly to host ends with his friends jumping out of the bushes and dragon beathing you. No thanks.
In dark souls 3 this one goober hiding inside Wolnir's arena whenever I invaded. It would've been fine if I could invade anybody other than him. Also he was literally right in the boss room, if he didn't want to fight he could have activated the boss and sent me home. He must've been farming for souls or really hated invaders
You really couldn’t have explained it any better the player base is full of prideful tumors after invading for so long you start to see this and you will come away hating most of them
This comment right here. There are rare occasions where I, as the invader, do some funny meme shit like Mimic Veil and fucking around for a few minutes before leaving - however that is only when I know the Host & co-op buddies will be similar memelords.
Every other invasion I try and show no mercy. No, I will not let you fight overworld bosses or enemies normally. You also forgot to mention that Hosts can also have a Rune Arc active, hell, using Godrick's rune is essentially a free 40 levels for the Host. I have a lot of hours on Elden Ring and it's sickening to see how people play. I think my longest invasion was about 20 minutes running after a Host in the Consecrated Snowfield because he never had balls enough to fight me 1v1 and always waited for co-op buddies and Blue Hunters to help him.
PVE dont target but they can still hit you. Yesterday i invaded in that one cave with the runebear and you can guess how that went.
The same can be said to you. Many people on the other side of this souls argument laugh at people like you knowing you start frothing at the mouth if we DC on you. Seems you can’t stand that either. Tit for tat aye? 🤷🏼♂️ fromsoft could just design a way for people to play online with invasions being disabled and the two sides of the community never have to play together again. 🤷🏼♂️
It's not only about PvP, but a connection between players as a whole. Messages with a limited choice of words, gestures, bloodstains, a random player that you see fighting for one's life out of nowhere and then quickly fading away before your own eyes.
Invasion mechanic is a part of this system that also helps to realize how different and strange the world of the souls series is compared to any other game.
It feels not like an average dark fantasy, but a dreadful, misty dream that you can't describe thoroughly. Both inviting and hostile, charming and horrifying.
I might suck as an invader but I have always love being invaded due to it adding to immersion of the world and the fact that I am not alone, or safe
and that adds so much tension and immersion into the game+ the t rex velociraptor allegory was amazing. Very good video man an instant subscribe!
I feel like a lot of the disdain towards invaders comes from a place of ego? Why is it so infuriating to die to an invader maybe once or twice but bashing your head against a boss for the 100th time is totally fine? It's because they died to another player which hurt their ego.
Yeah, getting dunked on by someone you might hate in real life really doesn't mesh well with understanding and compassion. Such is the nature of PVP
For me the differences are that a) I know I will face the boss, whereas an invasion is only a chance of happening and b) I can repeat a boss over and over again to learn the patterns, wheras invaders are more or less random, no prior knowledge of moves, items etc. There's also point c) some people just don't like PvP.
@@Lynn3011people dont like the idea of being bad and less skillful at something than others.
Its both a mental issue and a thing every human being has to face.
You can take so many losses before you start doubting yourself and yet you can learn how to lose gracefully and basically eventually by trial and error not lose.
If you lose and dont learn how to lose and learn you lost twice.
@@Lynn3011players can be be predictable, there is only so many moves a player has access too.
But you won't learn that if you don't engage players
Having to reset every 15 mins because some tryhard invader jumps in to kill you is frustrating. It's like going to work except every Tuesday someone stabs you and steals your money. You invaders need such wild justifications for why people hate you. You are just evil people, that's all. That's why they hate you.
One issue with invasions is concentration of skill - at level 30, invaders vastly outskill their victims per capita because they're not 'new' invaders. At 100 or 150, it levels out. There's much noise around who has the advantage, but invaders have map enemies on their side and an already-prepared mindset. The real factor is who is more skilled, and it doesn't make sense for a new player to jump right into Malenia for instance, which is why the game is structured like that. I would be enthusiastic about invasions if I could ensure an experience for hosts more like Miyazaki's (and your) vision of it. I say this as an orange or blue man in these situations
That's an interesting point, though I'd say level and skill are not inherently tied. Builds are determined by level, which can help to augment skill greatly, but you can have devastating builds at low level and terrible builds at high level. For me, the biggest difference is you take a lot more damage at higher levels so there's less room for error, whereas at low level the damage is a lot more tame and you can do a little more back and forth. Neither is specifically skill-exclusive, just different types of fights.
Thanks for the input
Cheers
From a Co-Op phantoms perspective, My only problem with Elden Ring invasions is the frequency and the overall flaws in the system itself, in previous souls games you had a rather comfortably set cooldown timer in between invasions that could be overwritten by the dried finger. In Elden Ring they are NON-STOP, the cooldown barely works for more than 10 minutes which is hardly enough time to catch up to where you were and make actual progress without just sprinting through entire zones due to how massive levels are in this game. this issue was only exhasperated by the implementation of Wex Dust into the matchmaking which was tilted heavily in favor of invaders than it was co-opers in summoning pools( I.E. getting summoned from limgrave as a PYROMANCER to help fight the FIRE GIANT... And its not like I can just go to the grace and resort spells AS A PHANTOM *_FROMSOFTWARE_* ).
Before frequent invasions could atleast be mitigated by going to less populated areas, something even DS3 made transparent with its multiplayer activity icons in the fast travel menu,
It doesnt help that Spirit summons have kinda made co-op phantoms obsolete. Why summon Joe Schmoe, increase the bosses health bar and open your world to invasions when you can just pop in mimic tear and get all the boons of multiplayer for free.
Theres not even really any incentives to co-op or invade in the first place.
Rune Arcs? Seriously? Why are you giving me rewards that I CANT USE AS A PHANTOM. Rewards I can get much easier and faster from just farming rats! How have you brought EVERYTHING from previous souls games back BUT NOT THE DRIVING FORCE OF THE MULTIPLAYER, Where are all the covenants??
Its feast or famine levels of extreme, either you're not getting the full multiplayer experience, or you ARE and its being forced down your throat so fast that you're choking on it.
I used to love invasions, they were a twist that would catch you by surprise and spice up your run, now its become a cesspool of endless harassment either by Ganker Hosts, or Twink Invaders, not a surprise, but an inevitability.
It's in a rough place, for sure. It all feels like they didn't realize just how much they had fundamentally broken the previous systems when adding the open world and just didn't have the time / inclination to address them. Taking systems designed for a very different playstyle and pushing them into an exploration-heavy romp isn't exactly a graceful transition and I think people are really feeling the friction it creates.
thats not true..
a few months after elden ring released they increased the invasion timer by a huge number.. making re invading people impossible unless they use the tounter tongue.
that wasnt the case in previous games.. FS kinda killed the multiplayer longevity by doing so and i hope they fix that for dlc
@@junoglrr9119 The only thing killing the multiplayer longevity is the blatantly superior options to circumvent it, not fromsoft "Rebalancing" the invasion timer (Which im going to need a source cited on that because theres nothing in the patch notes and the multiplayer activity is OBVIOUSLY going to die down MONTHS after launch, thats true of ANY video game)
People who want/need help are just going to use the Spirit Summons, People who want to play with their friends are just going to use the Seamless Co-Op mod which removes the chance of invasions entirely, which unless this is the last souls type game, theres a good chance Fromsoft could see the popularity of the mod and extend the "Opt in" aspect of invasions even to co-op players too. And if you think Mods arent going to impact the future of souls games, I got a question for you... _where do you think the idea of Spirit Summons came from in the first place?_
*_Where do you think the idea to invade anywhere from any location came from?_*
Poorly regulated invasions are going to be the DEATH of invasions as a whole, Mark my words.
@@sasaki999pro fromsoft never mentions everything in the patch notes… i think it was on the second or third patch…
Didnt ds2 blue covenant have the priority of invading or helping a host in all the areas even though you werent in the same area as the person you invade or help?
I dont disagree with you, its just weird mecanics in elden ring that will hurt multiplayer longevity.
I still get quite active invasions in all the older souls games bc for example solo host invasions are a thing. I dont see that happening with elden ring unless they bring some changes with the dlc
@@junoglrr9119
I think if you're a type of blue phantom you MIGHT get called into a different zone? Blue Sentinel/Dark Moon, that sorta thing. Which is another thing Elden Ring poorly implemented, the Blue Phantoms in Elden Ring are practically useless.
There's no moderation, no progression or worthwhile reward. All the duelists are just going to the arena, all the noobs are just using spirits, all the co-opers are just playing Seamless. That just kinda leaves invasions mostly at the mercy of Griefers, sadistic people who are literally in purely for the fun of bullying.
Twink Invaders who are functioning on the power level of "Batman with Prep Time"
And Gank Squads with OP phantoms who are literally just taunters tongue and idle waiting for victims to overwhelm.
As it stands now, I don't know if the DLC CAN add anything to fix it. Its not as simple as "Enable Solo Invasions" or "Remove Spirit Summons", hell I don't even think an extended invasion cool down is enough.
It would take a monumental restructuring of the current matchmaking system to course correct the state of the games multiplayer. If I had to make starting suggestions however...
>Add level range restrictions to password summons, the current level scaling system IS. NOT. WORKING.
>Nerf Spirit Summons, like across the whole board.
>Enable Solo Host Invasions with satisfying incentives, like buffed Great Rune effects or multiplying runes gained.
>A 15 minute Invasion cooldown that only activates AFTER the invader has left your world, one way or another. Increase the timer with subsequent invasions like DS1 did.
>Harsher penalties for Disconnecting a multiplayer session
>Implement account tied Skill Based priority PvP Matchmaking, honestly seeing Armored Core 6 try this has made me slightly more hopeful for the future of Fromsofts multiplayer systems, and only scrubs would fear getting pitted against someone with an equal skill level.
>Implement a proper faction ecosystem, including purple phantoms and covenants with progression trees.
>Make Blue Phantoms spawn near the host (and prioritize solo hosts)
>Add a boss/zone filter for summoning pools
And this last one is just a personal pet peeve of mine I've had since DS1 that I would like to see changed going forward even though I know most souls fans will vehemently disagree;
>Implement universal *_Friendly Fire HITSTUN_* to ALL parties both PvE and PvP. No one likes getting corner trapped by a bunch of ganking A-Holes overlapping their own attack animations freely with eachother while you're stuck helplessly panic rolling in place and awaiting your imminent demise, Monster Hunter has had this feature for AGES, the games would be WAY more fair and balanced this way, and with proper implementation the amount of "Trolling" that could be done with it is negligible at best compared to what options are already available in-game.
yes, I love being bad red man
I expected some sort of goofy ahh rambling of the Saintriot variety, never truly committing to any of the claims being made and remanding oneself to the borders of humor and contrarianism fashioned as a persona... but this was actually rather well written and well delivered. The work of someone who loves these games but knows how to take a step back and see what's what.
Thanks! Honestly, I am a big fan of Saint but I know that style isn't always for everyone, as it's mostly streamer content built for longform entertainment, rather than scripted thinkpieces. I'm trying my best to remain objective about my very strong opinions because I don't want to misrepresent an argument that I think a lot of fans of the games have only experienced through the more toxic points of the culture. Essentially, I want to convince people who I think would genuinely hate me otherwise that there's so much more to these games beyond first glance.
@@emotionaljonxvxI like Saint a good deal as well, I think he's flat out the funniest when it comes to, well, the unique thing he does. But I don't like when this gets in the way of having a solid opinion, in which Saint usually turns into this weird contrarian as he inevitably veers towards some unavoidable funny bit. I'm not saying everyone needs to be like G9 or whatever, cuz that'd be insane. I was just surprised that your tone for the few first seconds hinted at something closer to Saint, but actually ended up being something that can be shown to literally anyone who's curious about why PvP arrived in DeS and never left, all the way to ER.
If such people were curious and had 18min, I think this would be a great eye opener. Some people (a lot lol) just don't naturally seem to ask the question "why is this system here?" They treat it like the shortest straightsword or a crap ash of war: must be here for the memes! The truth is otherwise, if anyone cares to think about it.
I do just want to say that I disagree with a major concept you've put forth: That Elden Ring is about overcoming challenges with infinite attempts and refining your skills.
Elden Ring is the daughter of the Dark Souls series, and deep in its DNA it does share that capacity. But to call Elden Ring a game about honing your skill over time to overcome a challenge is wrong. Elden Ring is its own creature, with a different intended experience. It CAN be that, if the player chooses so, but it's not about that. Elden Ring is, in reality, the marriage of Dark Souls and Armored Core. ER is a build tailoring game. You fight a boss, find what keeps you from beating it, and leave to find the answer to that problem. With Mohg, it's the Purifying tear. With Malenia, you can argue it's the frost pot. Rykard is an obvious example: NO ONE fights him without the Serpent Hunter at least once. That's a change in your build to tailor it better to the fight you're presented with. But that's the thing about build tailoring games, they require either you learning what challenge you're facing and taking time to change up and prepare, or they require you to already know and go in pre-prepared. Invaders are the diametric opposite of that fundamental concept. Nothing about them works in that framework. You don't have the luxury of spending a life to learn where the problem is because if you do, you just lose. And you can't go into the fight prepared, as... Well, the person that invades you is random. Their build is virtually random. You're dealing with layers of this randomness that utterly defies the careful planning of your build. This isn't to say PvP in Elden Ring defies its core philosophy, in reality it's the opposite. Duels and the coliseum are perfect representations of ways you can plan a build to be well rounded for a PvP scenario. It's specifically invasions that are designed to follow the old, Dark Souls method that doesn't work anymore in Elden Ring.
I also disagree with your setting aside of the toxic culture within invading and PvP in general. Invading isn't inherently evil - I disagree with it being inherently well-made for Elden Ring specifically, but it's not inherently evil. But when invading is largely cheating, disrespect, and toxicity, can you really argue that there's no expectation of evil? Is it wrong for the general playerbase to expect nothing but pain from getting invaded? I still have trauma from going Human in Parish to summon Solaire (the real G of Dark Souls) immediately getting invaded by Giantdad or a full Dark Bead setup. I fully understand why so many folks just alt+F4 when they get invaded, because in almost every case there's no reason to expect enjoyment from invasions.
You have the most charitable view of invading I can conceive of and it's because of your love and passion for the games and series. But I think it's negligent to assume as much of the invading experience is as good as you do. Now, I'm not an invader, and by no means do I participate in PvP in these games. I seek to master the world through knowledge, understanding, and planning. I'm not here for uncontrollable variables that take away from my ability to express myself through my carefully laid out plans. I like the feeling of watching my plan coming together because I spent hours working on it in game and away from the computer. As such, I'm not one to enjoy PvP in any sense. Furthermore, I don't know how Elden Ring PvP really feels. But from my few experiences in this game and in previous games, I haven't found any luck or joy. Bad faith is all I've experienced. You are the expert in this field, I will admit, and I don't want to come across as though I know more than you. You have the experience I don't and maybe through this you have a more accurate sense of the experiences that occur when engaging with this side of the game. Maybe it is much sunnier than I am aware of, and I come off as a cynic or pessimist. But your act and sense of roleplay, immersion, and honesty isn't something I think is reflected by many who do the same things you do. And that's a bad thing. More folk should be like you.
I think you've got a very valid view of the game, and though we may differ a lot in how we see things I want to address it in earnest here, though I will likely make a video on a related topic.
To me, Elden Ring is Dark Souls 4. Specifically, it's Dark Souls 3 2. I know, that really doesn't feel like it's true and it's got a different name and specifically can deviate from the old conventions and all that. I think people who say it is it's own game have a perfectly reasonable point.
My counterpoint is it just isn't different at all. It has extra steps, some forward, others back, and a lot to the side, but it is the same game. The way you make builds, the way you approach bosses, the way you explore dungeons, the way you interact with multiplayer, the way you do everything except travel the open world.
The open world is the one thing that sets Elden Ring apart. For me, it's the worst part of the game by a mile, but it's still something that sets it apart. But every single other aspect is a direct copy-paste. I wish Elden Ring was a different game. Bloodborne is a different game and it's better for it. But Elden Ring is just Dark Souls. Frankly, it's a little worse than Dark Souls.
Dark Souls had integrity. It had focus. It had a mission. Elden Ring is focused only on scope and spectacle. The map is big, the bosses are big, the hurdles are big, the lore is big. But if they just took out all the empty space between events, took out the duplicate bosses and catacombs, took out all the crafting and gathering, and took out the map, you'd have a really great Dark Souls game.
Instead, we have a really good Open World game that hasn't managed to surpass it's predecessors. That has learned as much as it's forgotten. Elden Ring is as good as any other Dark Souls, but it's far from innovative where it counts. Maybe Shadow of the Erdtree can help to rectify all that, but a lot of the damage is done in my mind. I still love the game, I will continue to play it, but I find myself wishing another game was around the corner, rather than continuing to drag this one out.
Regarding PVP, I think you just have to actually experience it from both ends to understand what it can be. Assuming it's toxic because it can be toxic isn't necessarily wrong, but it will stop you from ever truly understand it. That's really the whole point of the video. No one's experience is invalid because they don't care for a certain playstyle or aspect of the game, but if you don't engage with it in a sincere manner, you're leaving your opinions to stagnate. That's what I wanted to get across with my invasion story. I hated it, thought it was toxic, wanted to avoid it at all costs, blamed the invaders, talked myself out of it, everything I could do to make sure I didn't have to face it, but I was wrong. At least, I was wrong for what mattered to me.
I wouldn't be the same sort of person I am today without learning invasions. I wouldn't have the same taste in games. I wouldn't be able to confidently say what I want in a game, because until I learned to invade I didn't know myself.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Hopefully I don't come off as too jaded or hardline. I just want people to get the most from these games and I think multiplayer is too often overlooked in that regard.
I think invasions are fine in most souls games. The lack of covenants in elden ring was a good point that i hadn't given much thought on until you pointed it out, and definitely feels like a big missing part of elden ring.
Usually the frustration with invasions come from the players themselves (twinking endgame gear, cheating with endless hp flasks, etc...) rather than the actual system itself. The exception in my experience where invasions really frustrated me was in dark souls 2, where there was no timer between invasions so somebody could camp one spot and invade you over and over as soon as you left the bonfire (especially as the playerbase dwindled and funneled the same people against the same people over and over). Couple that with the terrible soul memory system which made every death feel like a permanent black mark on your account which guaranteed being paired up with somebody higher level with every death (and possibly getting locked out of cooping with friends), and twink invaders/cheats- and well if you're lucky you can just go to another area and come back, if not you have to put that controller down for the night.
One time where somebody with a 1shot twink mage build who clearly outgeared and outleveled me (no fighting chance) camped the bonfire at heide half a dozen times before i opted to go somewhere else stands out to me as an instance where it was definitely un-fun and trolling. Had no real issues with invasions in any other souls game, even the ones where i died often were fun and added variety and flavor to the game (and lots of great memorable moments) especially if doing a subsequent playthrough. Heck if nothing else that one annoying invasion was definitely memorable
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna talk about twinking in a future video. It's such an odd thing to address from a development stance. On the one end, it's really cool how powerful you can make a character even without traditional leveling. On the other end, being able to essentially guarantee a kill without giving the other player a chance isn't so much player vs player as it is player vs death. I personally draw a distinction between low level PVP, twinking for optimization, and griefing. It's a fine line that is pretty much guaranteed to do some damage.
Dark Souls 2 is hilarious, and I love it for all its flaws. The PVP is so wonky and soul memory is borderline impossible to manage without a ton of foresight. They got it figured out a lot better in DS3 and Elden Ring, though there's still work to be done.
@emotionaljonxvx looking forward to it! You make a lot of good points and the videos are great. Also that point about the multi-player aspect of the game enhancing the singleplayer game, miyazaki probably couldn't say it better himself- I think iirc in an interview on ds1 or demon souls that's exactly the design decision he had in mind when asked about the multi-player aspect, so it's really cool seeing that implementation working out so well in practice
@@emotionaljonxvxsomething that's not talked about enough is everyone on Elden ring right now who's doing PVP is just camping there with Max summons turning off the taunters tongue as soon as you invade them so that it turns on to a 3 v 1 and with them always all the time to winking which is some people's reason for twinking as an invader then there's also just straight to people who will hide away like cowards and off to go somewhere where you can't reach and just wait for you to die or leave out of boredom you weren't able to do stuff like that and the other dark souls games because of their not being a mount like torrent and then there's just the AFK farmers who's depravity nose no bounds because they sit there and do f****** nothing they basically bought a game to sit down and not play the game and it can be frustrating as an invader myself constantly have to reach you or something because of a glitches or AFK farmers and such like that.
A timer is a good idea. Camping really is a problem, with the invader able to hide anywhere forever while being unable to deal against host side passivity.
the invasion system in ER is flawed itself. Every new souls game takes power away from the invader but ER took it a step too far. Most fights are 3 v 1 due to the limit of 4 players per session and while spammable aoe or projectile attacks are balanced when it comes to 1 v 1 in a 3 v 1 setting they become unbearable and all it takes is 3 brain dead players spamming smothing like storm blade for the invader to be unable to do anything. Then there is also the problem with overleveled phantoms wich is a first in souls games. You can be an invader at lvl 50 fighting a host that is around your level and 2 other phantoms that are lvl 500. Then there is also the problem of the pve enemies also hitting you (some of them at least). All this on top of the already present in other games things that tip the scales to the side of the host (like no friendly fire for host and phantoms) make invasions virtually impossible to win against any semi competent players. Twinking was always a problem in souls games but due to how invasions were made to be in ER it is a complete necessity at low levels since you will be fighting people that just aren't twinks because their level is actually too much to be considered that.
“I hate god and seek conflict” I want that on my tombstone
wow, you really opened my mind, i always play as co-op to help others bc i hated invaders (always i get invaded by some RoB user or one shot frenzy builds), but now i see those invasions as test to see if i get some better at the game or i must train more to be better, basically a new challenge. Thanks man
Wished we had gravelords and forest hunters in elden ring.
invasions in elden ring are just garbage a lot of the time, you spawn in, you realize all the enemies are gone, you roll your eyes and try to find the host, your turn the wrong corner, three people do the moon Viel ash of war at the same time, and then your back in que, fuck my life.
it's not EVERY time, but fuck it might as well be.
oh and don't forget the part where they all t-bag you like they haven't been doing this literally all day.
Invasions without 6 player multiplayer and covenant invasion zones in an open world game where every weapon is a laser bomb that deals 1500 damage per second are pretty much guaranteed to be hot garbage. I'm so worried this game is going to kill souls-style PVP forever with the biggest title to date having among the worst experiences and turning off a lot of new players to the idea of PVP.
@@emotionaljonxvx as my first soulsborne game, elden ring had me worried about pvp in general going forward, I'm actually a little relieved that it's just this specific title that has it this bad.
But yah elden ring pvp is pretty rancid right now
Very eloquent and nicely structured, and a very comprehensive address of the various perspectives on invasions and invaders, too! Very glad RUclips recommended this to me
hai wyrd
My answer to start of the video yes you and other invaders are bad guys. My reasoning for this stance is within an hour of my first time playing dark souls I got invaded by a twink he allowed me to break my main weapon on him which took a while then parried me and killed me with the riposte. I put the game down for like six months had I not taken that break or had I been invaded every step of the way dark souls 1 would not be one of my favorite games. That invader and all the others after I picked the game back up made me dislike the very idea of pvp in souls games because they always popped up in the worst of times during my first run and the times that I did get the upper hand they just ran behind the army of enemies because there was no seed of giants in dark souls 1. Could I have gone offline? Yes but I didn't want to drop out because of player messages.
I've tried pvp from both sides of the board and the only one I thought got it right was dark souls 2. if I had the option to play with friends with only ai invaders I doubt I would dislike elden ring as much as I do. I play for the lore I play for the story invaders for the most part aren't a part of that and as you asked at 6:10 it is different yes because I didn't buy the game for you I didn't buy the game to fight you I bought it to play elden ring.
6:40 other players aren't raptors they are other humans with a gun trying to off you and take your money while you are trying to deal of the velociraptors.
8:50 if this were the case there would be far more ai invaders nor is the spirit of the game hurt by playing offline.
9:30 You aren't the good guy you are breaking into someone's house and killing them or in the case of elden ring you as the invader see someone getting stomped out in the middle of the street and think my time to shine and you run in to start stomping as well.
10:38 Did being invaded immerse me? Nope takes me out of the game every time nor will I set any of what you asked aside due to invasions being in the game. You got to take the good with the bad if an invader cheats bunch of crap into my inventory and gets me banned that can only happen because he was allowed to invade me in the first place.
12:40 if I run out of content I put the game down till there is more pve content or when I want to revisit the same content otherwise I go play something else nor does an invader help me if my goal is to explore an invader in fact puts up walls that stop me from exploring.
13:55 I don't need you an invader for that I already spent 60 bucks for the game to do that.
16:52 Agreed the games are better when played with others but not invaders, invaders as you have mentioned many times in this video are not playing with others they are direct walls they are another thing stopping a player from passing go and collecting 200 dollars.
17:20 Again you overinflate the invader's worth not everyone wants to experience you.
You lost and couldn't handle it and that's OK but what's not ok is to apply some type of morality silly because you couldn't handle the loss.
Do you act the same when you lose to a boss or powerful enemy?
I picked up the og dark souls, got to the first enemy and quit for well over 6 months.
But eventually I picked the game up again and had the patience to improve myself. I didn't go blaming everyone but myself like you.
It takes awhile to like pvp because humans are tough opponents. I didn't start to proactively engage in pvp until ds3 the ringed city dlc because they had a boss that could be reset.
I also only engaged when I had the advantage of summons at first. And then I started to enjoy fighting invaders and regular enemies and the chaos that caused.
It took a long time before Invading became my reason for playing.
But not once did I ever think invaders were bad people or a bad part of the game even when I got utterly destroyed
@@Lastofthefreenames Man I know I typed up a storm but you could at least read my comment in full because it feels like you didn't or you ignored every point I made in my comment, I know the souls community likes to say git gud on everything but come on. Here's the thing my friend I don't have to like pvp I don't want to play with you and I don't have to that's the end of the story. You and other folk that like to invade aren't entitled to my time you didn't buy my game. Silly morality? that is one of the key points this video is based on did you even watch it?
As someone who ever only play Sekiro and Elden Ring. I think the main issue is that invasion mechanic can not work with password summons. Looking at the past games, without password summon the co-op summon is a random stranger who helps you out. However in Elden Ring most coop summons that are going through the area are gonna be the host real life friend. The difference here is that when in past games its strangers fighting each other so if either of them died its "Goodbye Random stranger". While in Elden Ring Jimmy and Timmy just wants to play the game but now have to deal with a third party attacking them. and if ethier end up dying or taking too much damage they will have to reset the whole process again. Which means they feel there time got wasted, which leads to getting annoyed, which leads to animosity towards invaders. The "Interesting" experience falls apart if that experience is annoyance. Also doesn't help that you lose your mount(In a open world game) just to have access to multiplayer which leads to large zones being extra tiring. If fromsoft were to use these system again they have to straight up get rid of the password summonings or we just gonna have a repeat of what happened with elden ring multiplayer.
Yeah, the password system is a really good idea with really rough implementation. I think it worked pretty well in Dark Souls 3, though overleveled phantoms were about as much of a problem, just by virtue of having the areas be a lot more co-op friendly. Elden Ring discourages multiplayer at every turn and I think a lot of it is unintentional consequences of prioritizing exploration as opposed to dungeon crawling. When two or three friends want to get together to play, they have to give up a lot of other benefits and it makes everything take a lot longer. So with all the barriers and time sync bullshit, an ill-timed invader can be the last straw when they should actually be enhancing the experience. It's a domino effect.
When I'm playing with friends, we're all just in discord running through the game separately, only summoning for challenging bosses as needed. It's honestly a big reason I have so few hours in Elden Ring compared to every other title. Not nearly as much fun for multiplayer, which overall really hurts my experience.
Thats why i thank god everyday for the seemless coop
@@brojiro208 I only wish (and I understand why) that you could keep the same save between the mods. Because I'm so PVP focused I never get to indulge in a 4 Horseboys of the Frompocalyse playthrough.
@emotionaljonxvx yeah they just need to hire the dudes who made it
I fully agree with this: the cost of losing an invasion should be losing your progress in a level, not that and having to go through an annoying rigamarole to resummon your friends. That and overlevelled phantoms need much more impactful automatic downscaling.
PVP works great in the legacy dungeons as it’s the closest experience to the one in the old games. You are actually an obstacle in their way. In the open world it’s just a drag for everyone, not to mention the solo hosts just taunters younger waiting to kill you
Agreed. It's a very obvious "This game is two games" sort of design flaw where they had this really cool new idea for an open world but it wasn't quite all that well suited to old mechanics. Maybe Shadow of the Erdtree can right the ship and give us a more focused evolution of their design.
If youre complaining about invaders, the answer is simple:
Don't summon players
Learn to play with the tools you have available without leaning on others to go kill all the mobs for you
The reason for invader to be is to balance the game. Having ur minions that can stun, dmg, heal, buff and can be ressumomed in any time without a risk, dosnt have much sense.
Comments like these are even more proof that invaders don't have any friends.
As an invader myself, I'm very glad to see a video put out like this that paints the picture in such a way from a philosophical standpoint behind what an invader actually is, and how it's actually a fundamental mechanic that is no different then other forms of enemies.
Nah. A guy with a PVP focused build invades a guy with a PVE focused build. Unfun shit.
That's a good point to raise. What is a PVP build vs PVE build? I think these games have an incredible strength for making builds that work on both levels. I think more what you're highlighting is good build vs bad build, or often at lower levels, build against no build. It's certainly lopsided but that can be a big part of the fun, even though I'm sure plenty of people hate getting attacked while unprepared.
I think there's a lot of room for discussion about how prepared you should ever be in a game that makes it clear you will face tremendous odds around every corner, but I also don't want to say that things can't ever be unfun. It's a spectrum with wide variance and I think that's a lot of what keeps it interesting.
Thanks for the comment
"Jon! What is best in life?"
Jon: "To take up arms against your peers and demonstrate the power you wield. Seek Violence. Seek Conflict. Seek Blood. Seek Death."
Seek strength, the rest will follow.
Lore wise, yes. Realistically, we're the heros
I've always viewed the invader (myself) as an intended, but not pre-determined part of the online experience. And invader dictates how they add friction/tension to a player's experience. A lot of Fromsoft enthusiasts will evangelize the "merit" of overcoming the challenge of these games, but seem to exclude invasions in that mentality. I became and invader because I got hooked on the experience of being invaded and not knowing what was going to be thrown at me.
I've always felt No-Hit runs in these games would be a lot more impressive if they weren't offline. Really demonstrate a mastery of every mechanic, rather than just the boss movesets and enemy placements.
@@emotionaljonxvx Couldn't agree more. I recently did a PvP runes only run and damn if it wasn't one of the toughest and most rewarding runs I've done in any of the games
@@emotionaljonxvx It's basically impossible to avoid every hit in pvp, not to say that subjecting your run to another guy's connection is just gambling.
One of the biggest problem with invasions in Elden Ring is how often hosts constantly get blues for back up or constantly summoning phantoms to help them like in DS3 or the other game.
There's absolutely no drawback for hosts to just wait, if they can, for blues to help or retreating to the grace to summon their buddies over and over on top of the insane AoE spells and skills introduced in the game.
I can't even use the Taunter's Tongue, which is dropped from a decently strong NPC you can't beat easily early on, to have a classic Soulsborne playthrough because odds are I'll be invaded by two players when I really only want the one player invading me at a time to spice up my run through a level which is also something I enjoyed doing as an invader.
Also the lack of covenants for invaders, blues and co-op players to rise up in rank for tangible rewards really hurts the game's online co-op/invasion system. I have ZERO reason to invade or help other players since the most I get are a Rune Arc or furlcalling remedy I also won't use since the runes you get through co-op are a pittance.
Volcano Manor and Mohg not having a covenant reward system was just terrible. Sure you do get the Volcano Manor rewards from Tanith but that's from beating NPCs which just isn't the same as invading players to rank up and earning the rewards. Like what if retrieving some blood item from Bloody Finger invasions to give Mohg or Varre or another Mohg related NPC to earn exclusive Mohg covenant spells and equipment like in the previous game's covenants? It'd be better than just invading for the sake of invading.
You’ve inspired me. I’m on my first playthrough of DS3 and haven’t turned on invasions at all so far. Def going to go online purposefully for this
great video, man. my first ever soulslike was elden ring and i have been slowly getting into invasions and pvp in general. it's fun. i just wish i couldve experienced the covenants, and i might still do with the other souls games (cause im definitely playing em sometime)
Fortunately you can still interact with the multiplayer in at least one version of each game, so hopefully by the time you get around you'll be able to catch a glimpse of how cool they could be. Dark Souls 3 PVP is the most robust/reliable and the covenants are the most streamlined, but they're all incredibly jank (in good and bad ways).
Dark Souls 3 PvP and covenants are still extremely active! Dark souls 2 is as well I believe, I’ve just played far less of 2.
Coming from someone who also started playing on Elden Ring : Do it
The older games still hold up amazingly well and the covenants are an absolute blast; Ive been playing the older games while waiting for the DLC and im having an absolute blast
In college I took game design classes and something he said stuck with me. "Your job (as a game designer) is to lose, in the most elegant way possible". Also I really want to use the taunters tongue more now.
I love invasions, I have several characters made purely for them. My favorite one is one I roleplay as a Banished Knight Captain serving Godrick and invade purely in Stormveil with a Banished Knight halberd. I had a lot of fun there, no single invasion was boring
What level do you do those? Sounds fun
@@StreamlinedGaming_ Level 22 with +3 weapon. I use the halberd with the Stormcaller (frost-infused because it makes dealing with overlevelled phantoms easier but I'm gonna get a second one that's heavy to fight lone hosts), soreseal, great-jar's arsenal and erdtree's favor (the base one, I'm fighting my way to +1 now). And obviously the mirror talisman to look normally, I rp him as enemy in Stormveil so he's not a Bloody Finger, he's not even a Tarnished
My first encounter with an invader was at the beginning of Godrick’s castle. I had taken the side path, and had just taken down the guard before I saw that we were being invaded. I honestly felt scared since I felt like he could just jump out at me at any moment. However, when he walked underneath us, we both jumped down on him and took him down by surprise. Even though I won, it changed the way that I felt about summoning, since every time I summon, I risk an Invader coming in and making it more difficult than if I didn’t summon.
If you get to call in a friend, the game does too.
As an invader I consider myself an optional mini boss and a hunter of the most dangerous prey. Great video, I love thinking about this stuff.
I can live with invaders. It's fun jumping them with a friend or two. Gank City in ds3 was simply amazing for example. We spent hours there trying to survive as long as possible. Good memories.
Ganking in Ringed City, High Wall, Crucifixion Woods, and Post-Pontiff is literally how I got any of my friends to try PVP long-form. It's great fun and it's a really good way to learn the basics. Really wish they would have paid more attention to those sorts of facilities in Elden Ring, instead of making me run for 50 hours. I hate running.
invaders add so much to each playthrough. Wish I could be solo invaded normally.
I wish there was a covenant I could join to summon me to help invaders against hosts or a purple neutral "mad phantom". I like coop, but I'd rather help the reds than the ganking hosts.
I think Elden Ring invasions can add a little spice to the runs I have with my friend. Sometimes though, it is really frustrating to get to a certain point only to be faced by an opponent who either cheats (in a previously deleted comment, I touched on being invaded just 4 hours into the release of SotE and someone invaded, 1-shotting my friend and I with the Incant you get from beating the final boss of the DLC, and in another case, had someone who randomly invaded, and when we got close, what looked and sounded like 10+ Sorcery effects went off all at once accompanied an explosion and glintstone animations around the invader, we both died, and they teabagged.), or just runs for cover behind a bunch of enemies to take potshots, or in some cases, hides behind enemies like the Winter Lantern-like enemies near Midra's Manse and refuses to do anything until we approach (we repeatedly got invaded by the same guy who kept trying to do this, so we couldn't finish the area for HOURS). Sure, there are some good, fun invasions, even among those we lose, but there is no small amount that are just trash people trying to be d!cks, in my personal experience.
We are. They even call me "the bad red man" at school and at work
I love your input, thanks for making these videos.
I love being invaded as a host in Elden Ring and DS3. Good times every time. I usually use Taunter's tongue and Dried Finger in most areas when I play in NG+
Same , at the begining of a game it hard because of twinks, but when you go mid level this is where it shines
I have one rule, always let the invaded finish their fight before attacking.
They need to warm up before the boss fight
*laughs in bloodlust*
I agree that invasions are fair, but invaders also need to accept that some people are just trying to beat a boss with some help or have a chill time with friends, and those people will do whatever they can just to get you out of their world, including using “broken” stuff and spamming
I'm certainly of the mindset that all's far in invasions. People can be nice or mean or whatever, but nothing is off-limits. I think fairness is always gonna come second to chaos, and I love that. Even if people are just trying to chill, there are lots of better games for that sort of thing, not that they should necessarily have to go elsewhere. It just feels a little off to not embrace every aspect of the game just because it might chafe sometimes.
Thanks for the comment!
In my circle, I haven’t ever heard anyone complain about invaders. Most of the time if they complain it’s about the players themselves and not the mechanic of invasions. Usually it’s someone who twinked end game gear or is using one of the many exploits that have been present that make people frustrated. I personally love invasions and I enjoy invading as well. With Elden ring I’ve seen more invaders complain about the fact that they can’t invade a single player. But to that I say “this isn’t dark souls”. This game was designed in a way that more people would play and actually get to complete the game. Miyazaki had made comments about his disappointment that not many of the people who bought dark souls games actually completed them. It’s pretty obvious that Elden ring was their way of addressing that. I do feel like the difficulty of this game is optional. summons, mixed physick, Great Runes, ashes, posture breaking, and no designated invasion areas all make this game incredibly easy. But also it’s optional. And really you can make the game as easy or difficult as you want. Anyways, great video man.
I's definitely the sort of thing that I feel most people who invade (or know someone who does) aren't all that confused by its value. I also see a lot of people leaving me comments and on the internet more broadly insist that invasions are a terrible mechanic and they should be removed from the game. The video is really just to talk through its value, though I'm sure those people wouldn't be convinced. Thanks for watching!
@@emotionaljonxvx definitely have seen people say things like that… I was hoping it was a loud minority lol for sure, appreciate the analysis/perspective your videos give! I’m actually making a game with a friend and videos like this and others you’ve made are very insightful. Helps understand what mechanics are actual fun to incorporate. Keep it up bro 👉😎👉
It's an intended game mechanic. That said, it's also totally valid to not like the invasion aspect, I know I don't. I basically never play PvP in any games, as it just isn't fun to me. I like, that you have to do something optional and avoidable to be invaded, but I don't know whether tying it to Co-op (aka an option mainly used by new and unexperienced players and by people who just want to goof around with friends) was the right solution.
Really what I'm getting after is that if more people engaged with it in an interested and sincere way, they could learn something about the game and about themselves that otherwise they might never experience. I'd never fault anyone for not liking it, but I think a lot of that mentality come from not giving it a real try and only experience it at its worst.
Are you the bad guy?
yes, yes, no discussion, YES
but that's fine
now
in ER you can ONLY invade people who have support to begin with, so i'd feel even less bad about it 😂
Guiltless guilty, I'm here for it.
In lore yes but in reality that’s just not the case
@@Sujamma_Enjoyer i'd say the other way around
but then, either way is fine
it is a gameplay-mechanic that was put in and balanced very intentionally
not making use of it is an arbitrary limitation,
plus it's fun (for me at least)
@@Azur_Vita invader a couple times yourself and watch some RUclipsrs like Jeenine,steelovsky or oroboro and you’ll understand
@@Sujamma_Enjoyer i assume they are not supportive of the feature?
I see it this way:
In ALL 'Souls-Games' since Demon's Soul (except Sekiro) have invasions been a feature. There have always been some who disliked this feature. Proponents would say either just play offline or don't play it. And no one had to unplug the ethernet-cable or unplug the router. There was an opion on the menu to play offline.
But for Elden Ring they added even a further layer of protection from invasions. One can only be invaded of one ACTIVELY opens themselves up for multiplayer. 2-on1-situations for players are non existent in Elden Ring.
I am not arguing from a lore perspective, but a gameplay perspective and what i believe what was the intention of developers for the experience of the game.
And on this aspect i think i agree with this video.
'Good' or 'Bad' are moral labels based on our subjective judgements towards others.
I simply would not call other players 'bad' or 'evil' - i disagree on that point with the video, but not for the content but for the semantics.
And like i said, for me it's a fun part on top.
Never feel bad about invading especially if you like actually fighting as a taunter's tounge user the worst experience I can think of is sitting there waiting for someone to show up for like 5-8 minutes and when I finally do get someone they just run around the map hoping that I'm stupid enough to let them gank me
I wish there was a way for solo players to be open to invasion without having to be in co op or having to be actively inviting a fight club via taunter's tongue. Like maybe rune arcs should be more common, or even free, but also open players up to invasion. I also wish we had proper covenants. You can feel the empty holes in this game where covenants should have been.
I thought Dark Souls 3 had it down pretty well with the co-op/invasion mechanics but I'm sure they just forgot / focused elsewhere. It's a damn shame and I hope the DLC can be a return to form for a lot of those mechanics in at least some way.
Ah yes, give the player LESS reason to use Rune Arcs.
Seriously, most players forget Great Runes are even in the game as is.
Making a higher penalty for them would just make people never use them.
It was nice to see the perspective of my enemy... You've made a very good point. Though my biggest issue with invasions is the latency. It makes the game unpredictable in a bad way, which kinda sucks in my opinion
Latency is the real bad guy
That and some other issues. I legit don't think invaders should stick around if you're fighting a field boss.
If an HP bar shows up. The invader should be Thanos snapped back to their world, like with the fog walls.
Don't mind me, venting a bit because this morning. I was helping a host fight the ice dragon on the frozen lake. And an invader backstabbed and killed them while the dragon was doing an AoE....
Plus, not fond of the meta for this game. From what friends have told me. DS2 had a pretty good invasion meta....
@@DataDrain02 The boss can damage the invader, he acts like a medium co-invader.
A field boss can't act as a fog wall unless you kill invasions in the whole area.
@@DataDrain02 as an invader I’m very happy that doesn’t happen. I get fog walled enough as is
Invading (typical red) is evil, in every souls game it is portrayed as such, it is part of the role playing aspect, you have cops that come in and help host, you have executioners who hunt the gulty, and you have defenders. Red invaders are even called a dark spirits.
The reason people hate invaders is because (pvp is kinda ass and far removed from pve) and also because there is no consistent difficulty.
Every enemy, every boss, every level is built on providing consistant difficulty throughout the game, dying is just an opportunity to learn and try again and ultimately win, miyazaki always wants the player to eventually beat the obstacles ahead with the tools given. (Stated in many interviews)
Invaders are not that, they are a wildcard thats thrown in the level for the soul purpose of chaos, they do not provide the host with an opportunity to win eventually, the thing that every other part of the game is built around, theres no garanty youll even run into that same player again. So no, they are not the same as consistant boss AIs and enemy placements.
Another thing that these games always got wrong was the balance for invasions, the host who is unskilled and unaware of pvp strats goes up against an experienced pvp player and as well as all the enemies from the level, it is extremely skewed against the host, when the invader uses the enemies in the level, (if you want a proper duel, just place your damn red sign on the ground.)
It was only ever addressed in ds3 in the form of priority invasions but still, you can invade someone solo and you will always have the upper hand, and no the 30% health buff from ember is not enough help to the host who has to deal with an invader who can use the levels enemies against them.
Elden ring did the right thing by removing default solo invasions and making it purely a counter balance for hosts summoning help, however they shouldve still kept some form of item that allows it for those who like that experience and actually like the shitty pvp in these games (like me), taunters tongue is just not it.
You're definitely raising some good points. I will say those experiences with unskilled hosts are not always true and there's a whole spectrum to how an invasion plays out. That's sort of the point. There is no guaranteed experience. Sure, anecdotally it may seem definitive that the invader will show up to grief you into oblivion because that's what they do, but in reality there are plenty of experienced hosts looking to grief invaders. If unskilled or fresh players are turned off by invasions, that's tragic, but the game gives them options to not interact with them. In that sense, the system works as intended. It's not perfect, far, far from it, but the imbalance and chaos are so much of what I find appealing about it.
Thanks for the comment, always appreciate discussion
In lore invaders are bad guys but in reality that’s just not the case most new players likely think this that it’s just some guy who invades some new players world and ruins the experience for them
But what it tends to be in invasion now and in dark souls is one of two things Either a new player who is being carried through the game by their friend, essentially truly ruining the experience for them giving them all these overpowered items and then killing the bosses for them
Or it’s Gankers really the true bad guys of invasions these are players who will min Max and exploit every advantage they can to fight invaders as a team they typically sit in one area after killing off all of the NPC‘s surround it so that when an invader joins they have no support so they can just beat down on this invader and that really seems to be the only reason they do it they just are looking for someone to abuse
Especially in Elden now their able to do this very easily because of things like the taunters tongue and you can really only invade players who have one or more players with them
Ultimately from all my experience I’ve had from dark souls 2 dark soul 3 and Elden ring it’s pretty clear. Invaders are really the good guys who are there really just teach players the game, no different from fighting a boss but more times than not they are the victims of players with malicious intent
It's a complex topic for sure. I really try to embrace the idea that there is no such thing as a good guy or bad guy in competitive gaming, only opponents. Everyone is part of the experience and some people are going to do what they can to ruin it for others, but even on that level I still find it an interesting and at least somewhat valuable part of the overall experience. These games aren't balanced in any meaningful way and that's something I love about them.
@@emotionaljonxvx If we are going to use labels like bad guy it’s definitely the players who make it their mission to 3v1 using duel bleed naginata,sleep crescent halberd storm stomp ashs and numerous exploits like carian retaliation exploit or just straight up cheating
Ultimately yes the game is unbalanced but that’s never stopped the souls borne series from having a thriving pvp community with content creators like Chasethebro oroboro Jeenine steelovsky etc everyones aware of it but it’s a good experience regardless of the many flaws
I love you so much.
Dont worry lads, Ive been spending the past few years learning how to make games. I will implement invasions into any game I can
"Have you ever felt the joy of invading?
With your whole being, the pox upon life itself. Feared and despised by all. The Reviled blessing.
Apparently not.
You are but a lamb. A stranger to invasions. Ignorant to your own ignorance.
You no longer interest me.
I've been long without peace. Don't spoil my quietude."
Hi Jon, Invader of 4 years here. I always (unless I immediately get ganked or see a perfect ambush opportunity) walk up and say hello and let my opponent power up because I want to beat them at their best. For me, invasion is all about the challenge like you said at the end of your video. I want to be able to beat 3-man teams on my own and get awesome clips, so that's why I try to let my opponent have a moment prepare themselves. Love your vid, have a great day!
I mean narratively, yeah. The Golden Order loyalists & Two Fingers faithful are far from 'good' guys, but the recusants & bloody fingers who hunt them are basically outright villainous. But a good game needs some good bad guys, right?
Every hero needs a villain
I’m sorry 9:35 is kinda ridiculous logic to me. Imagine breaking into a house and being like “ I’m not the bad guy robbing u , you’re the bad guys stopping me from stealing ur shit “ 😂 .
these are some good takes in invasion, love the content Jon!
The only reasons I hate being invaded are never really about being invaded it self.
It's more about if the invader is roided up to an insane degree, or the latency is so awful that the fight just sucks in general.
I think being invaded is the coolest thing in these souls games.
And I honestly think most players share my point of view.
The bad guys in my opinion are Fromsoft.
They absolutely butchered the Invasion gameplay in Elden Ring.
I always try to invade since I liked that role before.
But now when I invade, I'm up against 3 v 1 scenario where I'm never going to win.
And whenever I did get close.
They just ran in to the boss arena.
I just want a good old 1v1 Invasion were a player needs to deal with the invander and respect it's pressence.
It depends on the invader I think. Watchdogs of Farron and Forest Guardians? They're cool guys. Bloody Fingers and Rosarias Fingers? They're just get a little silly. Aldritch Faithful? Brother, Red invaders and hosts teamed up against them for a reason. Also, you absolutely can memorize every single ability ever, I would be terrified if I ever encountered ChasetheBro. He is ALWAYS locked in.
Invasions are extremely immersive - until you hit the meta level and 95% of the invaders are using cheated consumables (namely golem great arrows and starlight shards) to spam you from a mile away or from around a corner.
Great video! ER was the first game I really started invading. I started by turning on TT while running through levels until I had the confidence to handle 1v1s. After that invading almost became an addiction, it was so fun!
We’re the games way to balance players bringing friends to help beat the areas and bosses.
I basically only play these games for the pve because I love the bosses and its just hard to enjoy the mechanic of invasion, when fighting other online players seems like its a endless back and forth of attacks that feel like they shouldn't hit but do then attacks that feel like they go right through someone, and shadow hits that don't do damage but proc bleed anyway. to me fighting a boss is great because every hit feels earned and every time I get hit its a mistake I made, but every time I fight a player its just someone abusing systems and tactics that I just am unaware of because I never pvp. all said though great video I just wish I could agree.
I get where you're coming from and anyone who tells you the PVP is high-quality is trying to abduct you. But seriously, it's the sort of thing where you won't get anything quite like it in another game, so I'd seriously recommend giving it a serious shot. There's a decently steep learning curve and it takes practice, but maybe even just ganking with a few friends might show you something about the game you never would experience otherwise. I've abducted countless friends into my blood cult using ganks and none of them are allowed to complain!
@@emotionaljonxvx I honestly have thought about invading before but exactly like you said I never really wanted to be "the bad guy" and also like you said the system has always felt weirdly complicated to me, but I might have to join the cult for new content on this painful wait for the dlc lol
Welcome aboard! We drink blood every day and every night with every meal, and we can't sleep unless covered in Slavic dirt.
Dark Souls 1 will always be the most fun invading. I used to invade Anor Londo before O&S relentlessly for months, and it was always a joy catching a freshly human host with their pants down, running for Solaire's sign. It will never be better than being able to invade a solo host the moment they decide they don't want to be made of beef jerky.
Here's hoping they add an area in the DLC where you are open to solo invasions!
Subscribed, Always been Blue hunter thanks to playing the Darksouls series got invaded a lot so now I protect. I love the arena with 1v1 it's the top PvP matches I've ever had and an agreement, Invaders are never invited. I'm glad you have a choice in Elden ring, Darksouls you never had a choice. Thanks for the video Jon😀
In my initial and my recent replaythroughs of Dark Souls 3, invasions have always done one thing: pissed me off. They've never made me feel more immersed or awoken something "primal" within me, it has exclusively irritated me that another player makes the active decision to invade my world and kill me with the most aggravating builds and playstyles. I've had invaders that act like they want a duel until they run out of estus and go hide behind a group of knights. I've had invaders that utilize their pitiful connections to ruin my experience. I've had invaders that gank me while I'm playing solo because there is apparently a singular individual still playing DS3 as a Watchdog of Farron. I've had the whole rainbow of invaders and not one of them has improved my experience with the game, in fact detracting from my enjoyment and immersion in every single interaction.
However, the way you have described invading in your video has caused me to reflect and think about it from a new perspective. From a world perspective. Of course, we can't do anything about metamancers, cheaters, spotty connections, etc. And those will all always be irritating, in any game. But I think that, when I play Elden Ring for the 9th time soon, I will opt into invading and being invaded. Somehow, you have made this sound so appealing to me. Even if half of them go to shit, and they're not always fun, I think it might add to the experience. I suppose I should see for myself. Thanks for giving me a new outlook on this!
I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.
Normally I am a Invasor with Honor and Pride, but as the Bow Bandit Leader, I love to gank and torture the big Streamer live. Most of them are delusional and uses Glitches to win hard fights, no mercy. Only Peeve, he has the Bow Bandit Leaders Respect 😌
Can you imagine the tears if you could invade a solo host 😂
The devs removed this late in development because they knew the game would lose players rapidly with such a crap mechanic.
I never had a problem with the concept of invasions in these games. I remember the sudden terror in the older Souls games, when I'm deep in a level, low on resources, and suddenly seeing the invasion prompt come up. I knew then that I had to do whatever it took to survive what was coming: it was like the ultimate boss was coming after me. It was visceral, it was thrilling... it was fun. If I died, well, then no real difference than what the game itself was doing to me. Hostile, uncaring world and all that. Hell, I did my own share of invasions as a Blue Sentinel/Darkmoon Blade. Hunting down the guilty was fun, and it gave it's own feeling of passing down righteous retribution.
However, I can't help but feel that a small segment of players sort of ruined the experience. You had the overpowered twink type players who would show up with overpowered weapons and builds in lower level areas just to harass new players. You had gank squads set up just to bully invaders, seemly at first as retaliation for being harassed, but later just used as a trolling tool itself. It was like an arms race of jerk tactics going on, all while most other players just wanted to play the game. And don't get me started on the ones who were cheating...
I honestly think it was stuff like this, and the resulting attitudes about invaders by a lot of players, that was the cause for how invasions were set up for Elden Ring. It's now something that has to be opted into. It's nice giving players a choice, but I can't help but think it's something more players would rather opt out of than experience.
I think the griefing and ganking and twinking definitely takes its toll on the community, but I think Elden Ring has just made a mistake by diminishing the experience rather than adjusting it. In Dark Souls 3 they made a big adjustment by added weapon level to the matchmaking. Made it a little harder to find people, but made low level invasions way more palatable. No more one-shot builds or anything like that. Still overpowered gear and whatnot, but I would have liked to see them expand on that sort of balancing rather than making the whole system opt-in. I really hate what Elden Ring has done to the multiplayer, despite being an incredible game. I think there's a good middle ground and they just haven't focused on it, but I remain hopeful.
Thanks for the comment!
@@emotionaljonxvx I have to agree with you about the Elden Ring invasions being less impactful than in the older Souls games. While it is a nice gesture to let gamers opt in, it ultimately means that invasions aren't treated as a fully integrated part of the experience. Having other players be part of the overall threat of the game world was an important aspect of these games, and diminishing that just feels like a shame. I don't say this as someone who really invades others, as I really don't (not in Elden Ring, anyway), but as someone who appreciates the uncaring environment these games were putting us in.
i totally agree though, multiplayer suffered big time in elden ring..
i hope it was because of the huge world they made and not having enough time to refine multiplayer. which was a bad choice.
i really hope they do something for the dlc otherwise elden ring multiplayer will die out quicker then any other souls game before
Yes you are the bad guys, and i am the good guy slaying you sorry folk for my gracious host
Mind that you can only invade when the invaded popped a remedy, which means in almost all cases it's a 2v1 and the odds are usually in the favour of the one being invaded
Yeah, they've tilted the odds pretty hard but there's still a wide range of experiences to be had. I miss solo invasions a little but really I miss 4v2 and 3v3. Those were fights!
yes, but like 99% of everything is trying to kill you anyways so i dont know if you can have such title my friend.
It's a little tongue-in-cheek but it's meant to answer essentially a strawman argument I have in my head from comments I've seen here and elsewhere. All in good fun, I assure you.
@@emotionaljonxvx ay no worries you are fine mate, just stating the obvious here
i love being invaded, its just fun
have no idea why people gets mad so much about invasions
Why should I believe you? You're Hitler!
@@emotionaljonxvx Believe him, he's the guy that killed hitler
@@emotionaljonxvx great guy shame he lost, love from thailand :)
As a veteran invader from og demon souls
I invade to be prepared for anything.
Fight clubs/ solo duels / 1v3
I come prepared and ready for blood I’ve slain many and with the new dlc coming out many more to be slain.
I gotta a lot of hate mail or “ggs”
I dedicate myself to craft a nice PvP build and go around wrecking havoc all over the lands betweens (:
absolute banger of a video. ive always had a respect for invasions but this video really makes me excited for them. there's some people i need to convince about invasions being good, actually, and this video puts it better than i ever could
Now just because you're a badguy doesn't make you a bad guy
I've always said ppl take things too personal when it comes to pvp. Miziyaki is teaching us not how to win but how to lose.
Invasion and multiplayer in these games is the most fun, but its so poorly implemented it makes the experience so horrible. I hope for their next title or dlc they thoroughly look into this, looking at how many people are still online playing this after 2 years
They could stand to make it a lot better. I love it for what it is, especially since there's no real alternative, but I completely agree it needs a ton of work.
Pop psychology that doesn’t actually realize the tradition it’s in as being well established is the best bro genre lemme tell ya.
I have played every souls game offline. I don't see any appeal to connecting them online, only detriments.
Summoning a cooperator increases the bosses health, player ghosts are annoying, and it opens you to griefing from other players. No thanks.
Hello my fellow invader! gotta keep Kaathe well-fed am I right? I appreciate all the points you make, especially your intro and its interrogation of the possible in-game moral alignments, very cool! Does anyone remember the moral alignment chart for covenants back in Dark Souls? I really like how you argue that being invaded: anywhere, anytime - adds an element of terror that allows the host to potentially rise to this challenge with bravery. I remember being invaded all through Dark Souls (1,2,3, blood, etc..) and while there were definitely times I got killed before I could reclaim my dropped souls (usually sitting in the boss room, or behind some tough enemy), and that this loss was frustrating; it never came close to the thrill pvp. Player to player engagement adds layers of chaos, intrigue, and unpredictability; that in my opinion, is the lifeblood of these games!
Im sharing this video EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!! bRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!
tHANK yOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely well fuckin said man, it always irritated me when all these communities formed with nothing but ER casuals complaining about the idea of invasions and even pvp as a whole, but they refuse to acknowledge the fact that pvp was and always will be the veiled game mechanic that makes the souls game always shine. Other than close friends who are OG souls players like myself, you are one of the only people I’ve heard who actually gets it. 10/10 vid homie, you just earned a sub
Evil? Hell nah. I've met ton of awesome Invaders. And one has to relish a fine battle. All in all....if it's an honorable battle, why not fight
Invasions were put in the game because Miyazaki thought it would be fun to have human controlled enemies. It is fun. I love getting invaded. As an invader am I the bad guy? Yes! I'm not in your world to help you I'm here to murder you! But its all in good fun. Its a video game. You don't lose anything if I win except a minute or two of progress from the last site of grace.
Exactly. I just wish more players new to the series understood that even if invasions were a personal attack, the consequences are basically non-existent. Maybe it's a compliment to just how immersive the design is.
I mean, as a co-operator. I usually lose that whole session.
And, more often than not. Don't get summoned again.
So, I get an incomplete story when a host dies. So, it's more than a "few minutes" on my end.
I've really only played ER, never been invaded since I never summoned a Coop, but I do enjoy being a cooperator , ya know helping people out. Never had a problem with imvaders, usually I just play silly around them with a torch or crossbow, until some funny guy chooses to pull out some weird glitch and instakill us all. Mad respect to any other type of not glitching invaders, they tend to be pretty chill.
As a regular invader i can safely say that Soulsborne PvP is a great example of everyone involved being shitty. I cannot tell you how many times i've been ganked or encountered people who had no actual intention of fighting, both being downright rude after despite me not getting to do literally anything.
If you don't want invaders then please, *for fucks sake* , turn the tongue off. If you don't wanna fight, neither do we. It'll save us all precious time.
Definitely a case where everyone is pointing the finger while shitting on someone's car. There are no good guys and I love it
I just clicked on the video and haven’t heard you out yet, but wanted to give my 2 cents as both an invader and coop enjoyer.
Yes, invaders are the bad guys, and I honestly love that about it. It’s kind of the truest form of good and evil in an online game imo. But what would you call someone who’s sole purpose is to hunt down and kill the host while he’s not bothering you in any way shape or form, that’s villainous; and I wouldn’t have it any other way 😂
"am i a bad guy?" No end of video.
The immersive aspect you pointed out is actively why I love invasions and hate what they did to them since, arguably, Bloodborne. When I started the series I considered invasions to be awful because why would a random asshole get into my world just to kill me ? That's bullshit. But the more I played and the more I enjoyed this aspect because this community feature (whether you like it or not, that's what it is) injects so much life into the world of those games as well as make the gameplay more intense.
There's nothing more intense than going through an area of the game, having used most of you ressources, begging to find the next bonfire and having so much souls you don't want to lose. The level of DREAD that permeates the game now from the sole possibility that maybe an invader can come at any point is exhilarating. I don't think even overcoming a difficult boss is as satisfying as defeating an invader that was ready to end you when you had so little to help you out. And as a solo player, it's fucking incredible.
But in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring ? The world felt empty. I was advancing through levels, not once afraid of what would happen because the invasion rate for solo players in DkS3 is abysmal and ER simply got rid of it. "Just use the Dried Finger/Taunter's Tongue" but it's not the same. If I use those items I'm not longer dreading the possibility of an invader to come, I'm ACTIVELY asking them to join my world. The experience is immediately different, the dread disappears because the certainty is here and it changes the perpective from you're in a world with other players that may come for you as much as some can help you to your world is your own and you decide who gets in. That's not as interesting to me.
It's a shame that the invading system as been changed to focus on co-op only and while I know it's primarly to balance the strength of playing in a group, it's legitimately a loss on my part, I felt like I lost a feature that was the cornerstone of the Souls experience because a lot of people (and especially new players) complained about unfair it was that an enemy that wasn't braindead actually could adapt to them when those games never actually made you lose anything substantial when you died more than once.
I, too, lament the loss of that sense of dread that was in Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2. I love the PVP of Dark Souls 3, but mostly because of the large scale battles, rather than the novelty of what an invasion meant. It's a trade that is better for some playstyles and worse for others, but I think Elden Ring just made that trade worse. Maybe the next title will give us what we need.
@@emotionaljonxvx Yeah it's really a shame, I really don't enjoy this direction despite Elden Ring embracing PvP by creating balance specifically for that mechanic which I never thought would happen at all. It's one of the reason that Sekiro, despite being an incredible game, is probably the souls game I've played the least with Bloodborne (too lazy to boot up my ps4) BECAUSE it's devoid of any online interactions with other players.
Nice content, may I suggest the addition of subtitles? It's quite easy since you can just copy paste your script and youtube will figure out the timings.
Yeah, I'll see what I can do
Actual new goated eldenring content creator! Love these videos