Thanks for watching this first episode of Video Game Law Review. I wrote the script during my lunch break, and recorded and edited just about all night in hopes that it might still be timely. I’m going to try and cover future pressing legal topics by making these shorter, less intensely edited videos. Let me know what you think! - Moony
sometimes it even feels like Japan has way more conventions than the rest of the world… especially with how prominent certain series and franchises are in Japan
I feel we are very lucky to have a lawyer like you in the gaming community to be able to explain things so we can understand why it is and how it affects us.otherwise it would be a constant blame game and whoever gets to have the most popular opinion wins kind of situation and I think it’s a very bad thing. thank you moony as always!
Can't blame them. Nintendo has pulled stunts like this so often people develop instinctive reflexes about it. And don't forget Nintendo sent actual Pinkerton goons to intimidate targeted individuals connected to the modding and pirating scenes...
Sad that every time so thing happens in the community ppl on the outside just say dumb shit like it’s cause of all the pedos in the community even Nintendo’s hated the smash scene LONG before then.
@@AllBladesCut Considering how the community split it two when it was found out that Brawl was slower-paced, lacked Wavedashing and L-Canceling, and had random tripping - and that the Melee community has never gotten over that... Considering how the same Melee community took Brawl and twisted it with a game mod to make it more like Melee... Considering how one of the big Smash players straight up told the creator that _he'll teach him how to make a game..._ Uh... Yeah, no doubt the company has ill-will towards the community.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Source on Nintendo sending Pinkertons? You may be confusing them with WotC doing that earlier, from my research Nintendo have done no such things. Plus it doesn't make sense for them to hire someone to do so when they have their own Ninjas to do so
I hypothesize that these guidelines are nothing but a legal barrier between Nintendo and the Smash scene that they can point to if/when something happens, and that they won't ever actually enforce any of it unless something egregious happens.
Yep. The smash scene is a ticking time bomb of controversy and Nintendo doesn't want anything to do with it because it would tarnish their "family friendly" brand image.
I don't know why you would infantilize people just for enjoying their favorite game. I think the smash community is generally well moderated, safe, and far less toxic than the Street Fighter community.@@RADkate
If you're planning on doing more of this kind of video in the future, as the episode one in the title seems to imply, do you mind if I make a suggestion for sometime? How come Nintendo hasn't taken down Pokemon showdown? It's a website that lets you build Pokemon teams and play with them against other players online. It completely recreates the games battle system and even uses assets ripped directly from the official games. It's very popular and used by many important competitive players, so I'm sure they have to be aware of it, so it's weird to me that they haven't taken action against it. I assume that might have something to do with how even the official competitive scene would be hurt if it was taken down without a replacement, but I can't really be certain.
That's a fantastic suggestion. I've been meaning to make a video of some kind about Pokemon Showdown for a long time, but never got around to it. Maybe a Law Review episode will be good for that topic. Showdown is a fine example of how to do things the right way though. I'll get around to that video eventually -- maybe over the winter!
Nintendo only has 32% ownership of Pokemon. It may be that Creatures and GameFreak are more reasonable and see the value in allowing it to exist, while Nintendo would prefer to ruin the life of whoever created it by putting them in legal debt for life
@@Adam_U Yeah I'm almost 100% sure that's what it is. I remember seeing a video on one of Alpharad's secondary channels (pretty sure it was the channel named Not Alpharad) where he said that the people behind Pokemon don't mind RUclipsrs/content creators emulating their games, but he stressed that this was the Pokemon Company saying this and not Nintendo. So yeah, safe to say that 1) Nintendo doesn't have much power over enforcing Pokemon IP protection and 2) Nintendo and the Pokemon Company's stance on certain things are vastly different from one another.
You speak of a lower level of quality, yet I still find this video to be incredibly concise, informative and high-quality, despite it's short production cycle. I suppose having experience as a lawyer does pay off in this regard. Fantastic video once again Moony!
It's also important to note that Smash Bros contains the IP of many other companies besides Nintendo, so they also need to keep those IP safe and keep their relations with those other companies in good standing
Is it possible that another reason for Smash's strictness is that not all of the characters are owned by Nintendo? It would definitely hurt their relationship with valuable publishers if Nintendo mishandled IPs they don't control
Wouldn't make sense for melee since it doesn't have any third party character or object in it apart from maybe the gadget bombs from 007 but i dont even know if that counts
@@FreshmanGrimm making separate guidelines for each Smash title is harder for Nintendo to enforce (and harder for fans to adhere to) than one that covers all of them succinctly.
One thing I've seen floating around that is potentially a good point is that this may kill the scene for older Smash games. If you can only do these tournaments with a license, Nintendo is 100% going to require original software. Obviously PM is going to die, but Melee and, to a lesser extent, Brawl are also going to face major challenges keeping their momentum going.
The license only applies for organisations, not tournaments hosted by individuals. That being said, Nintendo is never going to give out a license for anything other than the latest Smash game.
I mean they licensed panda cup which included melee and they understand how huge the melee scene is. Plus pretty much every important tournament runs both games so I doubt they’ll license one game but not the other, and if they do the tournament likely won’t run anyways. If anything Nintendo is trying to kill ult now that the competitive side of the game is starting to die
Unless Nintendo rereleases them yeah it’s gonna be very difficult. And a lot of Mario Kart fans are also worried since games like MKWii or MK7 don’t have online anymore and will make it difficult to host such tournaments.
I wish more people understood this. I support the smash community in this but so often I wish they would just shut up instead of trying to pitchfork NINTENDO I saw a bunch of people on the site formerly known as twitter saying they should just spam tournaments because "they cant sue all of us" and thats one of the most stupid things ive read on that site
Honestly if you've watched the rest of the Moony legal videos on copyright... this is 100% straight faced advice (but not legal advice, he is not our lawyer).
Nintendo wants to maintain the image of SSB as a "party game", not a competitive fighting game. They also don't want their game to be associated with a community that is prone to controversies. I mean, Smash players smelling bad is a meme for a reason.
The impression I’m getting from Nintendo is that it’s all about brand protection. Moon covered a few examples of players Nintendo doesn’t want to come. One not noted is the large amount of sexual harassment cases and child predators (allegedly) associated with the younger audience. Personally, I’m ok with these changes despite being a tournament enjoyer.
i wouldnt be surprise if this is a reacction to last few years series of cases around sex with the smash competitive comunity to the point it has become a joke to non nintendo fans.
And how is making it harder to host tournaments gonna deter or stop or incarcerate child predators? Is it gonna give peace back to the many who have been wrongfully accused of being child predators, one of then being the victim of a minor who sexually harassed them?
@@KyrieFortune Both in population and quality of players. It’s a lot easier to curate attendees when the numbers are smaller. While cases of sexual assault may still happen, it will be harder to hide it among 200 competitors versus let’s say 10,000. This also has the side effects of causing the community to monitor themselves more closely since the size difference will be more manageable. Such monitoring helps prevent false accusations as well but not guaranteed. While this might just be a band aid fix, at least it will be a deterrent from creating a hostile environment for children. I don’t know what camp you fall on but I believe this is for the best. For the tournament organizers, safety for the players should be paramount. This is just my nonprofessional opinion, of course.
@@PathBeyondTheDark Not necessarily, predators can be anywhere and can be LITERALLY ANYONE, including the event organizer, but certainly online events are less dangerous than physical ones in this sense, since online there cannot be sexual assault, at least not during the course of the event. We also have to always keep in mind that there are predators that are in fact very smart and will always look for any way to satisfy their twisted pleasures.
you know, those youtube influencers don't give a shit of nintendo, brand, they just want to ride it until they make money out of it then switch brands. That's why those youtube influencers are the ones who will be very concerned and cry the most out of it, since it is affecting them, not most people who love smash.
So what you're saying is that Smash players have been entitled brats for too long and they've had this coming? Yeah, that makes sense. Doesn't change the fact that some of the rules are completely asinine.
The hero we need! I was REALLY hoping you'd make a video about this. Edit: after watching, the one thing I would love to know more about is how you think this might affect melee as a competitive scene. Given the rules surrounding emulators and mods, this has a chance to really shut down the community.
I can see GC coming to the online service either with the next-gen Switch or shortly after, which would solve the issue for online events, and in-person can be done on console, be it GC, Wii, or the Switch 2.
Hungry box in an update on the issue said much of what you’ve pointed out, that this might actually be a positive step forward if they can keep tournament approval fast
@@moon-channelit definitely helps that Hbox is both passionate about Smash Bros as well as a successful business owner, so he plays on both sides of the coin
Generally speaking, I'm still wary on what this means for regional events (events that COULD be around 200 ish people) due to the restrictions in place between sponsors and general profit. The two extremes are fine in a way but it's that borderline that concerns me. There's also the timing for it that can affect a lot of the early 2024 major events. I'm sure it will work itself out but I hope it goes smoothly.
200 people is not a lot compared to say 1,000+ people spectating the event. It would be akin to that of the early days of European Speedster Assembly back in the early 2010s as well as Games Done Quick events from 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013.
Might Nintendo also want to be careful with Smash Bros. because it involves some IPs owned by companies outside of Nintendo and they wouldn't want to sour their relationship with their partners?
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 It's not so much about licensing, its about brand perception. Companies do not want their brand associated with scandal because its bad for business. So if they lent out their character to use in another game and that game ends up mired in controversy, they end up with egg on their face too.
There no good intention of nintendo by doing that... There NO SCENARY where local tournaments affect nintendos brand.... unless it was patronized by them , a thing that they NEVER would do.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 yeah but as with the licenses nintendo gives out they are very specific and usually not a "do everything you like" license
@Tobunari it’s bad for any grassroots scene, grassroots Smash ultimate literally already has plenty of tournaments that break the rules on size limit and funding; hosting even a midlevel tournament on a budget of $3,000 is really hard. Splatoon is a much newer community than Smash and *already* regularly occurring online tournaments break the participant limit. These guidelines gut the grassroots community, there’s just no question about it.
@@Cris_Blu we don't know what licenced tourneys would look like yet - it could be bad, but also once you're over 200-300 competitors I wouldn't call that "small" or "run by a single person" at that point.
It may end up not being that bad, but I think the comparison with, for instance, Capcom’s guideline is not very good. Even if their guidelines are similar, the point is that if you want to run bigger event, Capcom doesn’t make it difficult for you to get a license. If Nintendo end up also playing it like that, then, yeah, these guidelines are nothing to worry about. But that’s a very very big IF, given Nintendo’s history with the Smash community, and more specifically with the Melee community. The fear that Nintendo will simply not give out licenses for Melee events is not unfounded, and if that’s what ends up happening, that is the end of the Melee scene, because the restrictions set by the community guidelines definitely kills major events.
I think genesis is licensed alredy no? And panda cup included melee in the licensed circuit so unless mods like slippi or frozen stages are in there should be no problem.
there was a big emotional reaction from the smash community in response to this, understandably so after years of intervention. these rules are ass but thank you for making this video.
I didn't expect you to make a video on this so soon. I really enjoyed you pointing out that the Smash Community is very much an island within the FGC itself. With you saying that, I'm starting to wonder how you do actual lawyering, treat RUclips just as a hobby to make videos you want to do, and /still/ have a pulse on everything. I know you said that someone sent this to you, but for you to mention the insular interaction of the community I feel requires a bit of prior knowledge to just smoothly mention it as you did. Great stuff as always!
first off, good video, great channel, jus givin my 2 cents. i feel like promoting the narrative of smash players being overly-vocal reactionaries is disengenous when you consider the incredible amounts of damage nintendo has done to the scene through their targeted actions over the years. it feels like a lot of statements you make are reasonable in a broader context, but when applied to this specific situation come across as bad-faith criticism. yes, every other top fighting game has had intimate relation with their respective scenes for years, meanwhile nintendo has targeted active aggression at the smash community on numerous occasions for years, so them releasing a set of guidelines like this has a very different implication than say, capcom releasing updated guidelines for SF tournaments. this perception of nintendo is borne from years of verifiable evidence. i can understand some regulation, like not allowing the use of mods (this is not suprising) but even before such mods were used at tournaments, nintendo actively attempted to shut melee down, with the most famous case being the evo 2013 incident where the melee bracket was almost cancelled after they raised over 200k for charity to get that spot. the accesibility of licenses thus far seems to indicate that these guidelines will improve the relationship, but it's completely understandable for community members to read it without that knowledge in the beginning and make reasonable assumptions about how nintendo is going to treat them. especially when there are guidelines that appear strict to the point of being legitimately unenforcable. i just dislike the narrative that people like me just need to "take the L" when nintendo threatens to damage one of my favorite social outlets and pasttimes. this point of course, is not being applied to smash players who were guilty of heinous and disgusting behaviors and were outsted from their respective subcommunities. i would never imply the community is perfect, and vigilance to report innappropriate behaviors must remain resolute at all times.
You can have community without Smash. Smash is not and will never be an asset to Nintendo. Nintendo is a corporation with over 7500 employees that primarily trade on IP to generate revenue and profit. Hence, Nintendo will protect its IP from anyone including fans. Plus who told the Smash community they are entitled to exist as a money making entity anyway?
As usual, this is an excellently written and structured video. Congratulations on getting it out so quickly. That poll was what, three days ago? As much as I want agree with your predictions of a more sustainable future for Smash, Nintendo's past behavior leaves me anxious, to say the least. My concern doesn't lie in the guidelines for individuals. Rather, I fear Nintendo will use the existence of these guidelines as an excuse to place hard limits on the size and scope of the Smash scene moving forward. Smash World Tour tried to apply for a commercial license for years, while Nintendo remained silent, mercurial in their requirements, and were outright dismissive of what was set to be the most professional and beloved smash event the community could put together. Granted, to my knowledge there werent official licensing guidelines in place beyond applications and handshakes, but for Nintendo to essentially 180 in their approach with both community organizers and event licenses is something I'd need to see happen *repeatedly* in order to believe.
And that is completely fair: the Smash community has every reason to be skittish. I mentioned this a bit in the video, but these guidelines do look like both olive branch and crackdown -- it shows Nintendo is willing to invest more into the competitive Smash (and Splatoon, and Mario Kart, etc.) communities, as opposed to actively opposing their very existences before. But, investment in the communication and constructive side will also likely mean investment into policy enforcement, and how that pans out remains to be seen.
@@moon-channel From what I've seen, a lot of people are worried that this doesn't show that Nintendo is willing to invest more into its competitive scene. In terms of commercial licenses, there's two ways to read between the lines of these guidelines: More optimistically, "Moving forward, getting licenses for tournaments will be easier. These guidelines exist to tell you if we think that you're 'big enough' that you need to apply for a license." More pessimistically, "Moving forward, getting licenses for tournaments will be as difficult as it is now. These guidelines exist to tell you if we think your tournament is 'too big'." In your video, you assumed the more optimistic interpretation, and I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I think the more pessimistic interpretation is completely fair, especially considering Nintendo's history with certain competitive scenes. The prominent community leaders who are coming together to say "we're not going to follow these rules" aren't doing so out of spite - they're doing so because they're pessimistic, and see it as there only choice. And I think it's reasonable for them to come to that conclusion (assuming a pessimistic interpretation of the guidelines), because some of these rules are *very* restrictive. Sure the sponsor thing sucks, the participant limit is really low and the limit on admission fees is suffocating, but in my opinion the worst rule is the one about how a TO can only make up to $10,000 a year. There are people who's job it is to run these tournaments, and for those people there's only one way to "work around" these guidelines - get a new job, because you can't be a tournament organizer full-time anymore. What I'm really concerned about is if these licenses are applied unevenly. I think that you're right that Nintendo is going to start giving more licenses to the community, but what if when the time comes, all the Melee applicants get turned down? It's not a ridiculous scenario - after all, the melee scene has always been the one that was most at odds with Nintendo.
@@mogoscratcher5703 "after all, the melee scene has always been the one that was most at odds with Nintendo." Well of course it has been. I remember the fallout from the E for All thread on Smashboards when Gimpyfish reported Brawl had no Wavedashing or L-Canceling - that's when the community broke in two. And the whole The Big House situation, which iirc, Nintendo was a _sponsor,_ and the TO's tried to squeak by having people play Melee online with dumped ROMs (Which, you can't legally dump Melee due to requiring a hacked/modifed console to dump the ROM), on stream, in a Nintendo sponsored tournament - before Nintendo slapped them with the C&D, because letting the public see a Nintendo sponsored tournament where people play Melee, a game without inherent Online capabilities, on PCs not a Nintendo console, would be a _very bad image_ Nintendo would show to _investors_ by publicly admitting people could "pirate their games."
Hi Moonie, Melee representative here. I have followed your work since your first Nintendo video and have found it very eye-opening and interesting, but I wanted to add a cautionary note after watching a majority of this video based on my decade and a half in the Melee community. I agree with your points about Nintendo's concerns about branding and now IP after watching your videos. However, I believe the nature of our community does not fit neatly into Nintendo's need to keep their IP/branding clean, and will not after these guidelines are in place. After all, like you said, couldn't someone just say something awful or some other controversy could occur and now its partnered with an OFFICIALLY LICENSED Nintendo tournament? This could be much more dangerous for Nintendo. Their terms for community events also don't allow for any sustainability for the events, or for their growth into becoming an event that could be the size where partnering with Nintendo makes sense. Could small events also partner with Nintendo? Maybe, but given how Nintendo reacted to previous sponsor deals we had when they started to become lucrative, it seems that Nintendo is actively against tournament organizers being profitable even in a larger scale. I believe this will be made apparent when their licensed events guidelines release, but even if they do allow for reasonable profit, I have other concerns. Namely, they have shut down our community in particular in all kinds of ways over the years and even wanted to shut down non-licensed events with the cancellation of a previous circuit. A lot of this was done behind closed doors and with slow responses to whittle down the enthusiasm of various groups that wanted to just things out of passion for our scene. You can argue that these guidelines indicate a change of heart, but from our perspective there is no reason to see it that way. It seems far more likely that they will quickly have a lot of licensed events and therefore names and information of everyone running events. This would make the community much easier to act against as opposed to just striking occasionally or seemingly at random. Consider a community wide takedown of events because Nintendo decides a controversy is suddenly a community-wide problem that is unfixable and therefore the scene must be purged or punished to show they are doing something. Organizers go bankrupt, narratives are lost, years of work gone. Nintendo is a big company that doesn't make decisions quickly, which likely explains why things have been going more slowly. Nintendo didn't want us streaming our game at Evo 2013, an event that catapaulted Smash into the mainstream and still keeps us relevant to this day. The pushback was ENORMOUS and likely changed how Nintendo approached our scene as a whole. If not for our backlash we could be gone by now, which is much more preferable from an IP standpoint, no? For branding reasons too this would be true: Nintendo creates an image of fun for everyone and attempts to make games that way. So when competitions exist, some people must lose. This is an inherent push against Nintendo's branding and one which the developer himself has also spoken against many times over the years. Based on all of this, I believe their approach has changed to one of slowly gaining control of us as opposed to one of working with us. If they wanted to work with us, wouldn't they apologize for shutting us/trying to shut us down before? Wouldn't they say they want to make things right? Wouldn't they acknowledge that there are those of us that are hurt? Wouldn't they take community feedback into consideration? I would LOVE nothing more than Nintendo to work with us openly and warmly and talk to our organizers and come up with solutions that work best for everyone, as opposed to telling us how things have to be. I would be happy with them leaving us alone. I am worried about their current actions based on my entire time in this community. Thanks for your thoughtful videos, and your time reading this if you choose to.
Nintendo cannot work with the Smash community openly as they would be accused of condoning tournaments if anything went amiss at any one of them. Not enough is gained from the competitive Smash community to take that risk.
It's great to see such a detailed write-up from such a notable presence in the scene. You really know what you're talking about, which is admirable. If someone says something awful, or does something controversial, Nintendo would rather have direct and executive control over the situation than leave it to a third party which they can only indirectly influence through takedowns or other seemingly arbitrary means of enforcement. Could smaller events partner with Nintendo? Partner might be the wrong word here: the big events aren't necessarily partnered either, they are merely licensed, and the "Community Tournament Guidelines" are pursuant to a community tournament license (which happens to be free, if you follow the rules). Getting to the heart of your write-up though, right now, the most I can say is that this is a genuine change in direction for Nintendo. All community tournament guidelines, whether that's Capcom's, EA's, or Nintendo's, are drafted, in part, to provide the respective company control over their competitive community. Are these guidelines an invitation to cooperate? Are these guidelines an attempt to control and dismantle the scene? Are these guidelines drafted with the purpose of excluding the legacy competitive communities, while legitimizing the contemporary ones? It's just too early to say, but my intuition, given the language in the draft, is that these guidelines aren't a shot across the bow: they appear closer to an invitation to cooperate, which the Melee community understandably doesn't trust. It's drafted with stricter policies than everyone else's Community Tournament Guidelines, sure, but that's Nintendo for you. Don't expect Nintendo to ever state that they want to "make things right" with the melee community in any direct means. Big companies don't operate in those terms as we understand them: they reserve that language for shareholders, not fan communities. Think of them like bats: they echolocate -- they make decisions, and hear the echo -- they can gather more data than an individual, but they don't have an individual's clarity of vision. This may be Nintendo trying to figure out how to bring its long estranged competitive scene into a more cooperative embrace, albeit, in a graceless manner. This could also be a strangling hug: again, I'm afraid I can't say -- not yet. These are just Community Tournament Guidelines: the truly important thing to watch is how the licensing for larger events pans out. No matter what happens though, you can be sure that Nintendo won't just leave you alone. The law doesn't allow them to do that.
@@moon-channel Thank you so much for responding! It's great to get your expertise and also to use these times to establish dialogue to learn more. I am curious about why you feel optimistic seeing this. Would something more ominous, like another tournament takedown be what you consider to be against us? And furthermore, what financial incentive is there for them to work with us when their casual market is much larger and their entire branding? Why spend resources on this when we are, in their eyes, a liability? Big companies may not use emotional language like making things right, but surely there is a way individuals in places of authority could admit that to us, at least to some in private. Considering also how they treat their competitive Splatoon and Pokemon tournaments, having low prize money(the best splatoon players play for gift cards last I heard) and little marketing do not embolden us to think they will be asking for our cooperation but rather our compliance. I have more things I could say, but perhaps they will seem nit-picky or they just won't be helpful right now. In the end I am truly glad to see someone as thoughtful and informed as you covering this and having a discussion with me. I am always hoping for the best for our scene, however it can happen.
@@PPMD1 Yeah, might need to drop the bias, separate yourself from the community, and take a breath a little. Because otherwise I don't think you can approach this subject in much a mature manner, as you might think you could. Sure, Sakurai has some out spoken thoughts against Nintendo here and there, but not in a way that the Smash community has. As he has also spoken that he still will, and happily so, continue to work with Nintendo. So it's best not to conflate the two. Finally, I will say, your history with Nintendo, as from the community perspective, is not at all as Black and White as you may think. As is according to Kit and Krysta, who as when they actually mentioned it upon the Panda Global stuff, and therefore no longer an employee to Nintendo anymore at that time. Talk of the uncooperativeness of the community in the past. Made even further apparent in an interview involving one of the former Pro Melee Samus player, and someone who got to see behind the scenes in Nintendo, on PlayerEssence's channel. They talk about 2013 evo, and what really went on back then (it's pretty bad, considering Mr. Wizard was involved back then). Highlighting the fact that "trust" is a two way street, and that the community needs to earn Nintendo's trust as much as Nintendo does to them. Both sides are stubborn in the way that they are. Big difference between Nintendo and the community though, is that Nintendo has little to not much choice but to act in this way. Meanwhile the community, it isn't beholden to act in the way that they're doing. They're free to defy and butt heads, or go with Nintendo's guidelines and shake their hand. The community has the ability to be the bigger person here. But will they though, or will they go with their emotions and be stubborn? Unfortunately, as history has shown here, the chances of being stubborn is too high.
While I see your point that having clear rules can be helpful, I think your notion that people should be thankful for the giant corporation giving them strict rules so they can maximize their profits is kinda silly. Like I understand that it was the logical conclusion of the way everything works, but clearly something should be done by consumers to take those rights back, and it doesn't appear like there is going to be any meaningful help from legislators, so I think it's fine for people to flip out, and make a lot of noise.
An important difference to note between the Smash community and other fighting games like Street Fighter is that Nintendo really doesn't do large scale official tournaments to the degree that companies like Capcom does, so Smash fans are forced to pick up the slack in Nintendo's absence. Because of that, the guidelines feel much more offensive seeing as Nintendo not only does barely anything for the competitive community, but they're actively hurting its ability to function.
Nintendo does not want to be a pro tournament organizer because unlike Street Fighter the Smash franchise does not rely on e-sports for exposure and profitability. Nothing to gain for them other than being attached by the hip to a volatile community that refuses to grow up from their rag tag grassroot origins.
My 2 biggest frustrations which weren’t directly addressed here are 1- how restrictive the monetary caps on tournaments are, considering how underfunded the competitive smash scene already is, and 2- the fact that Nintendo still does not offer any official alternative to these tournaments that now appear to be under increased scrutiny. I appreciate your analysis but these two concerns still feel far from assuaged and the end of the runtime.
If I may, I might suggest a reason for both: 1. Possibly to limit community tournaments from requiring more legal mumbo jumbo associated with running bigger venues and things of that particular sort, or needing to acquire a license from Nintendo. 2. The official alternative tournaments are the much bigger tournaments that have received a license from Nintendo, not the smaller community ones that the guidelines focus on.
Competitive Smash, according to Nintendo, is not intended to turn a profit unless licenced by them. It's not "turning off the funding", it's "shutting down the concept". Personally I like that, and for Nintendo, it must seem good to them.
@@wilsan806These guidelines outline the difference with utmost clarity, the differences are: Size Profit motive Organisation Licencing. If your tournament is smaller than 200 people, not-for-profit, organised by one person and not licenced, it's community. If your tournament is licenced, or larger than 200 people, or explicitly for profit with sponsorships, or run by an organisation other than an individual, it is not community, and must be licenced.
I think the Smash Community listen to pro players and community members with no knowl of what their talking about. It's always the popular opinion or critical thinking. Nintendo didn't even shutdown Smash World Tour, that was all VGC. People still don't know that because they rather listen to one side or their favorite players. Think more.
I feel you overlooked a large thing that I feel is at the crux of this drama; these guidelines deliberately go after older titles. Particularly Smash Bros Melee. From excluding it from the games that are allowed to be run (they explicitly list 15 nintendo switch games as being allowed), to the banning of 3rd party networking methods (slippi dolphin), the banning of 3rd party controllers and accessories (box controllers, and arduino adapters), and the banning of game modifications (no qol mods), they are all guidelines that deliberately target that niche of competitive smash and the things that they've done to help not just with the competitive nature of the game but with the playability of the game in a current day context. Smash is still a multimedia product that nintendo has financial interest in, and Melee still being in the cultural zeitgeist draws attention away from their newest titles. So if wouldn't surprise me if the future licensing deals that we see for larger tournaments make a point to exclude older games and make tournaments into more of a vector for marketing instead of the more grassrooots driven events they currently are.
I'm going to select this comment to address this question, as it has been asked a few times. The video touches upon this, but doesn't go into detail: the Melee community has never been allowed to use 3rd party networking methods, or 3rd party controllers and accessories, or game modifications. Even prior to the new Community Tournament Guidelines, none of these have been allowed as per Nintendo's usage agreements. The Melee community uses them anyway, and Nintendo's enforcement has been relatively arbitrary, yet also not always present. What the new guidelines change in this respect is nothing: if the Melee community wants to use these utilities, they will continue to do so in defiance of Nintendo's rules and agreements. The guidelines do, however, provide some legitimate avenue to run a competitive melee scene, if the players are willing to play ball. That decision, ultimately, is up to the Melee community.
@moon-channel Holy crap, was not expecting you to respond! I want to clarify that I feel you managed to get your overall point across in a very clear and forward manner and I don't disagree with it. I just felt the need to add that bit of context behind everything as well as give a bit of perspective as to where the smash community is coming from and give my 2 cents on how I think Nintendo views melee and competitive smash in terms of them as a company and IP holder. Keep up the good work as usual! I look forward to the (sadly delayed) Halloween special.
After thinking it through, I've decided I'm also going to say the quiet part out loud, and make the subtext here a little more obvious. The flip side of this is, if the Melee community, or even a mere faction of it, does play ball, and Nintendo realizes "hey, wait, people like this way more than we thought, and there's opportunity for profit that we're leaving on the table", we may yet see better licensed controllers, maybe even cooperation with your favorite third party developers to make officially licensed products, or competitive netcode fixes, or a playable Melee deluxe with all the fix-ins, or what-have-you. Large corporations are like Ents in the Lord of the Rings: they are powerful, but consider things slowly, course correct ponderously, and do so from a very narrow perspective. These changes are, very possibly, just such a first attempt to course correct, as graceless as it appears to be. Think of it almost like echolocation: Nintendo (or any big company really) "hears" much better than a person, and can collect more data, but it can't really "see" with an individual's clarity. It makes a decision, and then weighs the response, before then making further decisions using the data that it has already collected.
Whether or not the this actually targets Melee, I do think that is where a lot of the concern is coming from. I know many in the Melee community have felt overlooked by Nintendo and the larger esports community for a while now. This may seem like confirmation of those feelings. I know people for whom local ad hoc Melee tournaments were an important part of their younger years. I can easily imagine them feeling defensive (justifiably or not) about something that might appear to be an end to that scene.
@@moon-channel The thing that worries me is if Nintendo were to make a Melee Deluxe or something for the switch. It is almost impossible to make a version that the current Melee community would be happy with. Considering the fact that input delay would completely mess up the scene. Melee is popular because of the amount of skill and responsive controls. If you add Ultimate input lag into it for instance. Certain stuff will just become impossible. Also Nintendo online has never been good. Just look at Ultimate online or the amount of Disconnects that happen in Splatoon. (Not claiming you stated that btw. Just saying i don't think Nintendo and Slippi could work together cause of Nintendos shitty online) The thing that makes the Melee community scared is all the mods and stuff we have in tournament is to make Melee the best it can possibly be. UCF is a huge example. Remove that and the game becomes hell to play for top players. Thank you very much for the video tho. More eyes and more perspective is amazing especially from someone like you. Looking forward to the other parts. :D
This is all well and good for Ult, but I am concerned this is going to set Melee back half a decade since no modifications means no online tournaments unless Nintendo suddenly decides to re-release Melee with online capabilities (not to mention the loss of UCF will make the highest levels of play inaccessible). Having said as much I'm not a Melee or an Ult player, I'm a PM player and this doesn't really change anything for us. Here's hoping Rivals 2 gets off the ground
All NSO apps have had online support, I don't see them not doing that for GameCube when that inevitably happens. They already have the emulator written for Mario 3D All Stars, so a lot of it will just be updating it to work with other games and add multiplayer & online support.
Ultimately it really comes down to how the licenses are handled. When systems like Splatoon's collegiate scene and low-level scene are exclusively operated by tournaments that break these guidelines it can be very worrying when Nintendo has historically been very stingy with them.
I think I’ve made a similar comment in a previous video, but thank you for always swooping in with level headed analysis and takes. Most people tend to look at the worst case scenario and run with it, so having videos like these to push the conversation in a more reasonable and informed direction is super helpful.
For older smash games like melee this is still very very bad. Nintendo will never allow modded versions of the game to be played, which kills all online melee tournaments. Even if you have a licensed in person tournament, you'd technically be in violation of Nintendo's guidelines if you use UCF.
Smash Competitive Community: Why Does Nintendo Hate us? Also SCC: *Over 100 players accused of Sexual crimes in a single year including rape and pedophilia*
I do think the way these laws can end online melee tournaments completely is something that cannot be ignored, a lot of the growth of melee recently has come from access to really good matchmaking and rollback netcode. After this passes, the only legal online tournaments will be on switches, with Ultimate's netcode being not great (to understate it). I know they have to protect their IP but at the same time it's understandably hard to see someone claim ownership of a thing that other than releasing a game in 2001, they've done very little to support and have tried to kill it several times, and be told "this is a good thing" when they place restrictions that if enforced negatively impact the community's ability to grow outside of offline tournaments, which can be hours away for some folks.
The Melee community brought that on itself. Doing major online events with modded, pirated software made by an entity that is a major opponent of ROMs and emulators isn't just poking the bear, its holding a bullhorn up to its ear.
@@nohrianscum9791 what alternative is there if you want to play a game during a major pandemic? sorry, but I don't think that IP law should be as powerful as it is and does nothing to help consumers and gives brands the ability to just wipe out tons of goodwill and claim shit they didn't work to create. give us an equivalent experience on switch, or hire the devs to make something official. telling people "you can't play this online" during an ongoing pandemic is not the answer.
@@a_dogpghyou can not mod a game in that way and expect to not be opposition. It does not only support modding it supports piracy, while it is fine it it remains low profile, when it is highlighted is when it becomes problematic. The option is to simply not play the game, the community does not own melee to claim it on their own, it was always done because nintendo let that to be. And the decision to make something with it is up to them. Sure we can ask constantly for it, but not force them to do it if they are not willing to, Why should ip laws help consumers when they have not been part of the creation and growth of said ip? If you argue they contribute to sales then everyone who buys a game then should be allowed to have a say in melee? I do not think that is right both legally and morally. Yeah it is sad that something so incredible is locked, but there is no available option that would not hurt or threaten nintendo that could work on my knowledge. Maybe if Nintendo provides the option by itself, but that is something up to them to decide, they know their resources, their manpower and their commitment to challenge that operation, not us, so only they know if they can make that thing happen. We as consumers, can only have a say in our consumption, we like it we buy, we do not like it, we do not buy, i myself have avoid certain nintendo products, like the fire emblem 1 collection, that are atractive to me but for abusive business practice is not something i am willing to support, maybe if the next smash game does not sell as well, the message can be clear, although of course is something difficult to achieve over the massive fanbase smash has. An how little smash community is in comparison.
@@a_dogpgh I'm sure NoA would also love better copyright laws, like not risking losing trademarks because a product or branding gets too widespread (such as the case with Velcro).
@@nohrianscum9791 To add to the other reply here, you have to consider that most other major fighting-game developers have fully embraced rollback netcode since COVID while Nintendo remains stuck in the stone age. Online play for fighting games is simply not viable at a competitive level without rollback, so of course the players are going to take matters in their own hands if they receive no official support on the matter. Other devs have been implementing rollback into their retro re-releases as well as previous newer games (e.g. Samurai Shodown, Dragon Ball FighterZ), so there's no excuse for Nintendo not to do so for Melee. There was nothing else they could've done here.
My big takeaway from this and the Minecraft EULA video is that the companies aren't preparing more and more "lightning bolts" like it feels like they are, they're simply letting us know what things provoke the bolts. While we all wish they would just stop throwing lightning bolts, as least they don't have to be coming at random; We know what provoked them when they strike.
Damn, even having watched the previous video about Nintendo from you I was a lil mad at them for what they did. Now I understand the topic more clearly, thank you! Expertise really is something huh
Even before watching this video, my hypothesis is that Nintendo is doing this precisely as a way to regain control of there Smash Bros IP which has been so unceremoniously dragged through the mud by the unprofessionalism and controversies coming out of the Smash community.
I see it as more 'follow the leader' scenario - apparently other companies revised their guidelines, so Nintendo did the same to be current. But I also don't have doubt part of it's to focus primarily on the latest entry than the 2nd of a currently six game franchise.
Guidelines so that you can run tournaments without incurring the wrath of Nintendo sounds good on paper, but these guidelines seem hyper targeted at making it inhospitable for the competitive scene to exist at all.
Yeah, there are some good points made in this video especially regarding how greater IP/Copyright Law is connected with the situation, but a **major** issue with this analysis is that it assumes Nintendo is a company that operates like any other company and just wants to defend itself. Nintendo despises us. Maybe Ultimate players will be fine, and this video would apply to their community, but they absolutely want Melee dead (and lets not even get into mods like Project M). These guidelines will, at best, be used to force compromise from the Melee community in order to specifically hurt it (particularly where modifications such as UCF, Frozen Stadium, and especially Slippi are concerned) and at worst outright crush it. I’d love to believe that it’s just Nintendo covering their ass, that’d be fine, but I cannot possibly give them the benefit of the doubt given their past behavior and interaction with the Melee community.
Emphasis on the “maybe” regarding Ultimate, btw. I still wouldn’t trust Nintendo even as an Ultimate player. Or a Splatoon player. And god help your souls if a new Smash game comes out and a non-insignificant amount of the players prefer Ultimate.
@@Ultimalockedget off your high horse, project m was a better version of their own game that also required ( for a time ) enabling piracy on your Wii. No fucking SHIT they wanted it slowed down.
I’ve watched this video from you Moony and I’ve watched a video from, in my opinion, a level headed ex tournament organizer that I respect, and I have a few comments I need to get off my chest. You’ve changed my mind on quite a few things but I feel like you lack the perspective of the tournament organizer in this video; I am not one myself, but maybe I can explain where their arguments have convinced me where yours have not. You express optimism over Nintendo’s clarification of what it likes and dislikes, and hope that it will bring an end to the “random lightning strikes from God” but the fundamental fact that I’m getting from TOs is that this problem will not be alleviated. The issue is that if grassroots nintendo games TOs follow these guidelines to the letter to avoid Nintendo’s wrath, either they completely **gut** their current grassroots scene (in the case of smash where many midsized tournaments already break these rules and could not be feasibly run within a budget of 3,000) or they destroy any chance that their grassroots community has to grow (such as the new scene for Splatoon 3, which has some tournaments already starting to break the participant cap). What is the result? The result is TOs unanimously agreeing that they will carry on as usual and hope that Nintendo just doesn’t enforce their rules, not because they are protesting, but because if they followed their their rules the reach of grassroots organizations would become insignificant. Thus, Nintendo’s whim on whether to enforce these rules or not becomes the new “random lightning strikes from God”. I do not blame Nintendo for wanting to hamper the profit potential of these events and protect their IP; but the lines they’ve drawn in the sand are suffocating and these events have historically been run at a loss anyways! This isn’t even mentioning the banning of selling food and water at these events or the fact that trying to get an official license from Nintendo could takes from months to a year just for the correspondence, or numerous other policies that make life hard for tournament organizers for little reason that other similar guidelines just don’t do! Finally, this last part is just a matter of opinion, but while we agree that US copyright laws are chaotic, I do not see these guidelines as a source of stability but as a toxic symptom of the US’s atrocious system. Personally, and I do not know how this is in other countries, but the fact that Nintendo can or maybe even needs to encroach *this* far into grassroots events is unacceptable, the fact that video game tournaments may constitute public performance akin to a public showing a movie is absolutely nonsense devoid of the context of what video games even are, and I don’t believe that, aside from the power to force others to remove your branding, logos, and IP names; companies should have any say in what events that involve their legally bought game do, especially not restricting the modification of those legally bought games. If you bothered to read through this, whoever you are, thank you and have a wonderful day
I'm not a lawyer, but I assumed this was similarly or less enforceable than a EULA due to noone agreeing. There's not even an official way to play melee online, and if there was it probably wouldn't be as good as Slippi. People will still use UCF, slippi, phobs,hitboxxes, and I just don't see anyone bending the knee on that. As someone who mods controllers as a hobbey, I certainly won't. It's an anti-competitive practice and anti-accesibility. I've sent messages to my State's representative hoping to get some law that allows sites to archive and preserve any game or software, but preserves the IP rights of the holder. The current laws are BS.
Overall a great video with some great points! Personally, I think Nintendo deserves a little more criticism for how restrictive these policies are compared to others. Virtually all other esports community guidelines offer official branding resources and explicitly allow you to use those resources AND the game's title for promotion, albeit with some caveats. The 10k **per year** prizing limit, in conjunction with the attendance limit, is also egregiously restrictive and unnecessarily hurts smaller tournaments that occur more often. Nintendo's approach is all stick with no carrot, and I think that those who are in support of these guidelines need to be transparent about how much more restrictive they are. For example, the Alex Gonzalez (CEO of Luminosity) tweet seemed disingenuous to say the least. I *really* appreciate that you went over the Street Fighter V Community License Agreement and mentioned how strict Nintendo's guidelines are by comparison. Nintendo's guidelines could also have used another editing pass given the typos and vague phrasings. Between that, the lack of transparency surrounding the enforcement of these guidelines, and the current absence of the license application, my outlook isn't quite as positive as yours. This is clearly not Nintendo putting their best foot forward. Honestly, I think it would be best for the community to transition towards non-Nintendo games that don't have **so much** valuable IP wrapped up in them, but that probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.
You understand Capcom and Namco are trying to subsume all tournaments for their fighting games right? They are not nicer than Nintendo to the fan base for fun, they are trying to become the only tournament organizer in town, like Riot games with League of Legends and Valorant. Street Fighter and Tekken life's blood is the tournament scene and without them those franchises would cease to be profitable enough to produce. The Smash community conversely is not the reason Smash is profitable and hence only serves as a threat to potentially lower sales of the game.
@@Shinjiduo , I understand that the motivations are fundamentally different for Nintendo and that the guidelines reflect that. Big people in the competitive Smash community have implied or outright said that Nintendo's guidelines are basically the same when they clearly are not, and that was the reason behind my comment.
@@Badum- I got ya now. Nintendo is not trying to get that e-sports money. In fact, they want to quell pro competition of their IP as much as possible. I think Nintendo makes these overtures just to maintain a status quo that paints them as hostile to the Pro competitive Smash community for appearance sake as widespread enforcement of these guidelines is likely not worth the expense to them.
@@Shinjiduo You're probably correct on that. Posturing is a weirdly important aspect of this in certain places; you need plausible deniability that you tried to protect your IP. There's also the PR aspect that you're referencing; they don't want to present themselves as endorsing the scene as a whole, especially after the big controversies. My main worry is that the community may not advocate enough for itself if people present these guidelines as standard. Enough bad PR could cause Nintendo to ease up a bit, and I guarantee that the license application process and the guideline enforcement are going to restrict things even more severely. Withholding those things, while also communicating with certain esports orgs *behind closed doors*, was probably a deliberate strategy to mitigate PR backlash.
people need to understand something. if you keep poking the bear, the bear will continue to get more angry. such as people saying "pirate nintendo" "fuck nintendo" or "fuck nintendo rules". i want to let you know something, you are not helping. our goal should be to build a relationship with nintendo, not dig ourselves a bigger hole. and also getting a license can remove multiple of of the guildlines. recently sumabato, a japanese smash major, just got a license for 10 more iterations.
also i want to say if we are in the middle of building a good relationship with nintendo and then some random controvery involving death threats, pedophila, etc. you will have no idea how mad i and possibly many people in the smash community will be really mad because of those person/s ruining it all.
this is as bad a take as telling someone to forgive and get back together with someone that straight up abused the fuck out of them and left them to die.
i like how tons of your content is just "yo, *insert community here* chill out. its not that bad." you are really good at diffusing these situations, and hopefully your channel grows much larger so you can help more people not panic about legal stuff.
Then providing virtually no substantial evidence showing how it's not terrible for the community while pandering to multi-billion dollar corporations. "It's not the bad because we now have guidelines showing how truly awful it is" isn't a positive thing.
Do you think that larger events for modded versions of Smash games, such as Project M/Project+, will now become impossible? Since modified versions of games are disallowed in the guidelines and will surly be denied on an application for a license. In 2021, the tournament Riptide got a CnD instructing it to remove Project+. Ever since then Project+ has been run at technically separate events in the same or nearby venue as the major smash tournaments. And Nintendo doesn’t do anything about that. They’re clearly aware of Project+ but only cared to put their foot down in that first instance with Riptide. Project+ majors usually hover around 100 entrants, less than the 200 entrants for unlicensed events. But some upcoming events the Project+ scene has been building may exceed 200. Based on your knowledge of tournament guidelines for other companies and how they’ve been enforced, do you think Nintendo cares enough to enforce the guidelines for every single event? Can Project+ continue to live under the radar? Do all Project+ events have to cap out at 200? If we’re breaking the guideline of no modified games, does it matter if we break another one? For our game and our community to survive we have no choice but to defy the guidelines every single event. By the very nature of our game. This may not be the end of the world for the broader smash community, but this could be the end of our world.
It's worth noting that Smash brothers differs itself from other esports in that the entirety of its competitive growth has been a result of these community tournaments. If the guidelines were strictly related to conduct and branding, it would be much more understandable than gutting the growth potential of independent tournaments that could become major events in the future.
it's criminal that not MORE nintendo aligned content creators watch you. so Much misinformation and panic could be destroyed if you would be more promoted by these people.
Slightly more intelligent hot takes are always better than the hot takes that dominate the first wave of reactions to stuff like this because it lets people take a moment to slow down and wonder if there really is something else going on
I’m so grateful for your channel and these types of analysis of these types of issues. Even more so that it comes from a place of both passion & understanding for the subject matter; coming at it not from one side or the other, but from a position of understanding of both sides.
Moony, you never fail to impress me with the quality of these videos, you know that? Even in the one that is supposed to be "quick and dirty" (this one) the value of the commentary and, by extension, the quality of the video is impeccable as always! Can't wait for the Halloween special (even if it comes out late)! Speaking of, you dressing Maya or Phoenix (or yourself) up as anything this year? I myself was watching this video as I was sewing my dress (Cirno from Touhou Project)! Tangent aside, amazing video as always! Much love from my little corner of the internet!
As always with the Smash controversies, the big voices try to sway using emotion over logic. Because if they took a step back they'd realize what its about. Melee players of course are upset, but considering how that side of the community has always been...
The more I watch moon channel the more I feel videogames guidelines are more "We don't mind just don't make our life hard" than "Please never do this ever again because we hate this." Correct me if im wrong.
The Internet has exposed the fact that a large percentage of every community is filled with ill intention-ed people thus if you have a family friendly IP you want to protect it from them.
it always felt more like a sorta. "In case of emergency" sorta thing. Honestly most companies dont care... but when things get loud.. people talk.. and your name gets dropped multiple times... you kinda need to take notice. There is also the difference between how a community treats a product, and what a product is intended for.
The way I see it is that Nintendo is just controversy-averse. They don't want their name to be out there in the same sentence as "scandal", regardless of how remote the connection is. Remember, Nintendo IP's are supposed to appear in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics but backed out because of the pandemic; it is argued that they don't want to be connected to the event should it flop. Nintendo never said anything about why they backed out but you can see a pattern...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Nintendo see themselves as the Disney of video games with Mario as their Mickey Mouse (which is probably right - I'd expect that Mario & Pikachu are probably the top 2 most recognisable video game characters), and as Moony said in the Nintendo copyright video, like Disney, Nintendo IS their IP. If they lose control of their IP then they're nothing.
Once again, you are the voice of reason where so many “passionate” Smash Bros fans and players are jumping the gun and complaining about stuff they barely understand (Mostly for clout).
I say this as the highest compliment, I always forget Moony is a lawyer because he is a lawyer with a soul. That isn't to say no lawyers have souls. it's just.... some of them... are kind of so aggressive about not having an opinion, it feels creepy and soulless. I'm really glad Moony isn't like that.
The fact he uses Maya Fey as a sort of mascot for his slideshows speaks how absolutely funny of a man he is, that Eula joke around 1:41 had me chuckling.
Whaaat, the competitive Smash community once again threw a totally out-of-proportion tantrum and unfairly painted Nintendo as a company that "hates their fans"? And then almost everybody on the internet simply copied that framing without doing any critical thinking whatsoever? Who would've thunk!
I'm really curious about how enforceable a lot of this actually is: Like, let's say a tournament doesn't stream the games, doesn't use Nintendo branding or copyrighted or trademarked material anywhere, doesn't make money off the event at all, and doesn't use hacks or pirated software and purely uses legally purchased copies of the game and consoles using official in game modes: Is there anything for Nintendo to even legally go after even if the event breaks the other guidelines they posted, since there'd be no instances of copyright or trademark infringement or commercially profiting off the event/Nintendo IP? Is the mere act of having a bunch of people play together somehow violating Nintendo IP protections or other commercial rights? I know there is some precedence with public vs private performance of legally purchased films (rulings I disagree with, but hey, I don't make the rules, sadly!) but i'm not sure how applicable that would be to games when the games have built in modes for multiplayer, some (like Melee!) even explicitly having tournament modes: That's sort of a implicit statement that multiple people playing together is okay? I also think it bears emphasizing that there are more Nintendo tournaments then just Smash Bros. I play Pokken competitively, for example, and that actually begs the question... would Pokken even be covered by these guidelines, or would they not be since it's technically a The Pokemon Company International published game? It doesn't even show up in Nintendo's quarterly earning reports as a result of that, despite other Nintendo branded titles doing so (I don't understand the exact legal publishing specifics for how that hashes out though, I admit!) Lastly, I think a major concern with these guidelines is how somebody would run tournaments for games which *don't* have modern online play, or may not be legally available for purchase anymore, where some sort of third party hardware or software is the only way to even access and play the titles.... obviously, doing so would be copyright infringement and violate the DMCA"s DRM anticircumvention provisions (may one day they finally be repealed), and as such it's not like they were ever allowed or Nintendo would ever allow those anyways, but I think people are concerned that with these guidelines there will be a heightened level of oversight (or even if not, that the community will enforce itself; and the people willing to skirt the rules may be pressured by their peers) and such events will be less common. Actually, lastly-lastly, you said you'd reply to my comment on the Pointcrow video about the absurdity of the Formgen descision and how the Petrella v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer ruling and other rulings stating laches isn't a factor with copyright intersects with your statements that copyright CAN be lost due to lack of enforcement, but you never got around to giving that more in depth comment... if you're sitll willing to, i'd love to hear your more detailed thoughts!
Having just watched a different video spouting outrage at this new policy, this has allowed me to better understand these and calm down. Maybe some of these RUclipsrs should do their homework before getting outraged about this stuff
Nintendo has not at all in the past showed a willingness to play nice with licensing. They’ve yet to even show what the new application system will look like. It could take years for popular tournaments to get that license. I think people are very right to be upset by this.
If they really wanted to play hardball with licensing, the expected move is to keep things vague, sandbag license applications, and generally be obstructive -- that is to say, to operate as they have been. A set of clear guidelines with the promise of a licensing application form to come within a set near term deadline suggests to me the exact opposite: potentially, a willingness to cooperate (keeping in mind, however, that this is still Nintendo we're talking about). I completely understand why people are upset though: once bitten, twice shy, one might say.
@@moon-channel Are you familiar with the WotC OGL controversy? These new "guidelines" (They are absolutely more of a THREAT to the community) remind me of that controversy.
How likely do you think Nintendo would be to do loosen some restrictions such as prize money, the amount of players, ect. if guidelines are followed? Let us say everyone followed the rules to perfection. Hypothetically speaking of course.
The smash scene has become so mired in controversy already that I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo just honestly doesn't want to take the risk at this point.
Something not mentioned directly in this video (as far as I can tell) that affects Smash Bros Tournaments beyond just uncertainty, is the fact that Melee and Project M are still played. Melee immediately disqualifies from the highlighted guidelines if it's played in any sort of online tournament, since that requires the use of 3rd party software (the game doesn''t have online capabilities but to my knowledge there are ways, using Dolphin). Project M disqualifies just for being what it is - not official but a fan romhack, in essence. At least, as far as I'm understanding it.
>I wrote the script during my lunch break Bruh, I can't even finish *lunch* during my lunch break. Your capacity to crank out top-notch creative content in addition to your day job astounds me.
If only the Smash community leaders are half as clear headed and unbiased as you, if they didn't let their ego get in their way they would have had an official tournament with Nintendo back with Panda. Those leaders said they ran tournaments because they love the game, not because they want profit, which they think the Panda CEO is doing, now Nintendo literally made it so that they can run non profit tournaments and guess what, they are still complaining. The Smash community really is their own enemy.
Na, Nintendo is the enemy and a bully. They attempt to control everyone that even looks at them wrong and should focus on making games instead of controlling people.
@@eyevou Why would Nintendo make the games and then sit aside and allow the public to sabotage the IP they are based on? Nintendo is interested in staying in business long term they have no choice but to protect their interest. Wouldn't you?
Great video! More ppl should watch this (to avoid protests that would make things even worse)... Though, perhaps if Nintendo had offered some contextualization/explanation for their actions (both past and present), there will be less hostility...
I think a lot of the concern comes from Super Smash Brothers Melee players, far less Ultimate. Of course, there are still agitated TO’s and players from the Ultimate community, but the general consensus among Melee players seems to be that the scene would essentially be vaporized upon tournaments making a license agreement because of the fact that only Nintendo Switch titles can be registered in the license application. While the license application isn’t yet available in NA, it is in Japan, and the agreement is globally congruent throughout. It’s worth noting that Melee has been the very soul of the grassroots scene and the one consistent pillar in terms of gameplay and community. Seeing Melee events come under fire could be catastrophic for the Smash scene as a whole.
More of a cultural question. The Slippy rollback netcode for Melee is considered the best thing to happen for the Smash community ever. Clearly, using it for tournaments is against the guidelines. How do you think the community will react?
I've addressed this in another comment, but will double-up to answer this one just in case. Slippy rollback netcode and, indeed, any modifications or third party controllers or mods, etc., have always been used in violation of Nintendo's Usage Agreements: they've never, at any point to my knowledge, been allowed. The Melee community is already using these things in defiance of Nintendo's policies, and these Community Tournament Guidelines merely reiterate, in this case, a policy that already exists.
That I get, and i totallyunderstand the legal argument. I was more asking about how a community that feels as though they brought their favorite game back from the dead is going to feel that they are explicitly excluded from building more. If you don't have time, I understand. I have always enjoyed your content and appreciate your insight
People are still going to practice on slippi which is by far the best part about slippi. Even if you can’t do tournaments, the fact that people have constant practice with other players is amazing
These guidelines aren’t bad for ultimate but melee might be different story. I’m pretty sure you can’t get a license for melee and all online tournaments break the rules. I still can’t understand why Nintendo hasn’t put melee on the switch though the online subscription as there is no way to play the 20 year old game without paying 100s of dollars to do so. There is a demand to the game that they are ignoring and the pirates are creating a better service because it. If Nintendo cares so much they should be doing better.
one thing I've learned from these videos is that most people are afraid (if not, than extremely apprehensive) about legal paperwork in general. I can't say I exactly blame them, but it's just a pattern I've noticed.
It's not about the legal paperwork, but the legal language. While it is theoretically written to be unambiguous, the text are often difficult to follow and most people can not properly parse it. Not unlike computer code, now that I think about it.
What an excellent video you've made. Very glad there is someone like you who could explain such a understanding way with little to no bias to either sides. I have my mixed thoughts on the guidelines, but overall I think it's somewhat necessary and Nintendo can always make some changes moving on like Capcom did. I do want to hear more clarifications on some of them, eventually change some as well. Not that it bothers me that much because of Nintendo's past actions and the guidelines does not affect me nowadays since I've on other things due to being frustrated by their choices in the past. But anyway, huge thanks for making this quick video. I'm looking forward for your next episode.
The difference between Capcom and Nintendo is that the former is making moves to takeover the tournament scene altogether as seen with the offline "World Warriors" Tournament series and Street Fighter League. The long term goal of Capcom is to subsume the Street Fighter Pro tournament scene and become its sole pro tournament organizer. Smash on the other hand, could have it's family friendly / casual friendly image hurt being widely associated with cash prize professional tournaments. Thus Nintendo would have no desire to make the same moves as Capcom as it would hurt sales and potentially create problems with other IP holders within Smash games as they would probably want a cut of the proceeds of official Nintendo Sponsored Smash tournaments.
@@ShinjiduoI don't know if Capcom being the sole organizor sounds like as a good thing overall, but I get what your point though. As for smash, I mostly agree but they did support Panda for example which was supporting the tournaments while giving an appeal that Nintendo want. Which implies they can support the competitive scene in some degree despite their horrible track on that. Still I don't disagree what Nintendo could do, plus that they want to eliminate older games/mods from competition.
@@Shing_ Panda proved however, that you cannot even create a single point of communication in the Smash community as that organization will get power hungry and the rest of the Smash Community will refuse to organize behind them. That community is like "herding cats" which I am sure Nintendo does not care for. Nintendo is not Bethesda it is not in their business model to release half done games as platforms to be modified. The problem is if you let the good mods get through without resistance then what can you say about the bad ones?
@@Shinjiduo I felt like the Panda thing was just a lot of miscommunication to both sides and too quick emotional reaction to it. It doesn't disprove your point, but I can't seem to personally agree with that statement of yours. Smash community is build like in lot of different sub groups where there are too many different opinions on everything. Point being that there will be people that would organize with them and some would not and labeling as rest as everyone does not sit me right. I think you misunderstood me on last segment, but that's probably because of my english isn't that good tbh. I were agreeing with you, but added more things that they don't needs deal with mods being a potential threat to their marketing sales so they can quickly eliminate the potential competition. I can go to your point though and say that Nintendo could decide to approve the ones they want, which would be neat on aspect such as controllers. Otherwise it comes down to the community approves the mod or rejects it, since bad ones won't be popular enough to the approved to the most people. Btw sorry if I make it hard to be understood. English's not my first language so I find some parts difficult to understand from yours. But appreciates your message a lot since it gets me to think differently. (Edit): Figured out what "Herding cats" meant and that just described what I just said. In that regard, you're right on that. I would only disagree most would refuse to organize if the communication between both was't too poor to begin with.
@@Shing_ Problems is when doing communication with a large group you really need a single point of contact so negotiations can be easily handled. If you have a negotiation table with one Nintendo representative on one side and 100 Smash representatives on the other there is going to be too many differences on what needs to be done among the Smash community side for effective communication to happen. If Smash community does not organize under one voice how can there be good communication with Nintendo? This is a all or nothing situation, the entirety of the professional Smash community must cooperate with any agreed upon negotiations with Nintendo. If you have renegade groups running around doing what they want you are just going to have the Panda Global situation all over again. The entire Smash community loses in that situation. The Smash community needs to understand they are no benefit to Nintendo because Smash will sell and be profitable with or without them. It behooves the Smash community to organize, unify and come to Nintendo realizing in the end Nintendo is doing them a favor by even coming to the negotiation table. If the Smash community can get back to the negotiation table again with Nintendo. As for mods, when I say "bad ones" I am referring to adult content like the recent mod in Super Mario Wonder where the talking flower were modded to curse / swear. Nintendo can shut mods like that easily because they are consistent across the board with their policy on mods. If they let mods like Slippi through without resistance despite it being in violation of the EULA agreement we entered by playing the game; when it came time to shut down this recent cursing mod its creators could claim they were unfairly singled out and even make an appeal to artistic freedom. Nintendo would invalidate it's own EULA agreement if it picked and chose what unauthorized mods were allowed to be used on their games.
Thinking I may have overreacted slightly (partly because of fear mongering, partly distrust as a former Project M player) and my only concern is that these guidelines still appear to kill off online melee tournaments because of the need for slippi?
@@Yoshizuyuner That fear is justified because, shocker, there WASN'T A WAY TO PLAY MELEE ONLINE BACK IN 2009. Do you not realize just how big of a portion of melee tournaments are online nowadays!?
I really do hope we all feel very stupid for panicking, but most of it is warranted for the PTSD Nintendo gave the community already. Biggest difference between Nintendo and every other company's guidelines isn't even how strict they are, but how hard Nintendo has been to work with historically. They take months to answer emails, give vague answers and are completely unpredictable. Lots of TOs worked with Nintendo and most of the time the whole thing got shutdown anyway. Every time Nintendo shows up to the community, even when they announce good intentions, everyone is skeptical because historically their good intentions ended up hurting the community. So yeah, excuse my skepticism and panic for the moment, even if the license terms and process of getting one are reasonable, me and a lot of us will remain skeptical as there is no telling what random thing they will pull to level everything to the ground like they've done for decades.
Can I make a suggestion for a future topic? You talked about Sega losing parts of Sonic's intellectual property in the past due to not guarding it from ex-artists. Which is probably why Sega wouldn't integrate the characters and storylines featured in the IDW Sonic comics into the main games, despite the new guidelines in place and Ian Flynn working directly in Sonic Frontiers. However, I want to understand why the mobile games Sonic Dash and Forces Speed Battle have original characters from the IDW comics. Is this a test? If someone from IDW claim authorship over those characters could these games be taken down?
Sega's supervision of the Sonic ip seems to be a lot more heavy than before, so if Ian Flynn wanted to claim those characters are his i believe he would have to take a lot more hoops than last time.
I think the part that my illness-impaired brain can handle retaining amounts to "IP Law does not really give Nintendo better options" or some such. Which begs the question: is ANYBODY making efforts to devise a better option? Also, thank you for being a fire extinguisher in these volatile times.
Nice video as always Moon! I was just wondering about the point that stated “Tournaments involving the sale of food, beverages, or merchandise” cannot happen. As my 20 person local, organized by a smal organization of TOs, in a free to use culture center run by the state every week. This center has a little cafe in the door next doors. Does this mean that even if we send a request for a license it will be denied as we cannot be affiliated with a place that sells foods/drinks?
I think that point is referring to tournaments selling their own food. I've participated in conventions hosting their own tournaments where the convention center itself has catering. The tournament is not affiliated with the convention catering, but the moment tournament staff begin to sell is when that rule applies. The wording in the document is a little vague in that regard, but I think it would be silly that events can't be hosted in venues that serve their own food separate from the tournament organizers. ( that being said, Nintendo is not foreign to doing silly things for the sake of their brand... )
Is it just me or could this have the consequence of splitting the local Smash Ultimate/Melee scenes, since Nintendo isn't offering licenses for Melee tournaments? Sure, this might be good for Smash Ultimate players and local community leaders, but the other 30% of the competitive Smash Bros community seems to be getting shafted as a result.
I do think the melee/brawl type of people will definitely get shafted and would have to resort to something illegal, or as the rich does it, find a loophole in the rules that bypass's nintendo's community guidelines and restrictions....They'll probably find one out but considering I don't bother with competitive gaming scenes at all, it's not a big deal for me nor do I care about it.
But you’re completely missing the point. This burden of honoring these guidelines is oppressive and will make it basically impossible to turn the smash scene into what the top players have been fighting for it to become.
Woah. Not what I was expecting after reading all the headlines and twitterx reactions. This makes things look much more hopeful. I hope the smash bros community sees this!
What was left out of this video is that you cannot get a license for games that aren't on the switch. The 2 biggest being Smash Melee and Mario Kart Wii. Competitive Mario Kart and Lounge is not super popular and mainstream so I don't think it's in too much danger but Melee is still a big game. That's like 30% of the entire competitive smash community just without being able to organize events for the game they love
@@lunchtreyy Which makes sense in retrospect - Ultimate's the latest game, it's going to be the one Nintendo prioritizes because it's the one they're currently selling. Same thing applies to Capcom. Capcom's not going to give Street Fighter 3 Third Strike priority over Street Fighter 6 because SF6 is the latest game... They're not going to prioritize Street Fighter 5 even.
@@lunchtreyy I've seen people saying that Panda, who are licensed already, were able to use Melee - and GameCube is next on the list for the Nintendo Online service so could come either with the next console or shortly after, making an official online mode for it as well.
The situation is definitely not as bad for Smash Ultimate as it first seemed, but online Melee is still 100% dead, though. Hopefully they don't prevent it from being featured for in-person tournaments as well. I'm not even a Melee player myself, but I do find it kinda inspiring how passionate its community has been for so many years. Also, I know you literally used him for your thumbnail twice, but Hungrybox actually chilled out now that he's been able to see how the licensing process will work. I think he got a bit scared of being specifically targetted since he's hosting one of the biggest regular online tournaments as of now and he's well-known for his emotional outbursts. 😂
So I guess that is fine. But my conspiracy theory still stands, that Nintendo wants people to stop playing their old games so everyone will buy their new games, and a way of doing that is "banning" all competitive scenes. So if some large tournament gets approved by Nintendo (like last year), they can still shut it down right before it starts (like last year)
Something you didn't address i'm curious about: how enforceable are some of these rules, even? Obviously Nintendo can crack down on people using pirated copies, mods, using Nintendo branding in ads, and maybe making money off the event, but assuming none of that is going on, is there any actual legal precedence establishing that they can dictate how many people can play together at once or offering food and drink at a venue where people are also playing the game? I'm sure the license for the game says it's only for you to play personally, but does is preventing people from getting together to play it collectively (especially when the games have multiplayer, or even built in tournament functions) really legally enforcable?
I've never respected the competitive Smash scene since one player threw a fit during a championship match and they gave him a redo instead of a ban. He "won" but not really, let's be honest.
I appreciate this review and your insight is always valuable. I am, however, left with a question and a comment. Question: To a layperson like myself, these guidelines seem to fully shut down regular local tournament scenes that are not big events. Am I wrong? While it may long-term benefit the big scene of top players, I fear that we will see less newcomers to that scene if the smaller local scenes are forced to operate outside of these guidelines. Again, I'm just a reactionary dumb-dumb so I would love some input. Comment: I almost missed this video due to the thumbnail. I know the video was rushed out and that Nintendo doesn't like IP being used in thumbnails, but just thought I'd leave that here. Thanks for the top notch commentary!!
I don't personally think Nintendo can pay attention to every locals, so you could get away with it. Not they would like to care or else they could try to remove every romhacks/fangames that exists online. Besides that they could probably makes change in the future.
![What do Undertale and Deltarune Say About the Meaning of Life? [SPOILERS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GbtQJsNjldY/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching this first episode of Video Game Law Review. I wrote the script during my lunch break, and recorded and edited just about all night in hopes that it might still be timely.
I’m going to try and cover future pressing legal topics by making these shorter, less intensely edited videos. Let me know what you think!
- Moony
I have a suggestion for a video topic: “Why does Japan always get more cool stuff compared to the rest of the world?”
@@pinksheep752 ?????????
and i’m not only talking about video games… but food, candy, music, movies, anime, and pretty much everything in general
sometimes it even feels like Japan has way more conventions than the rest of the world… especially with how prominent certain series and franchises are in Japan
no wonder why so many subbed anime franchises are a lot better than most dubbed versions…
I feel we are very lucky to have a lawyer like you in the gaming community to be able to explain things so we can understand why it is and how it affects us.otherwise it would be a constant blame game and whoever gets to have the most popular opinion wins kind of situation and I think it’s a very bad thing.
thank you moony as always!
Can't blame them. Nintendo has pulled stunts like this so often people develop instinctive reflexes about it. And don't forget Nintendo sent actual Pinkerton goons to intimidate targeted individuals connected to the modding and pirating scenes...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 I can. Sometimes people need to just take a deep breath and think logically instead of let their emotions strangle them.
Sad that every time so thing happens in the community ppl on the outside just say dumb shit like it’s cause of all the pedos in the community even Nintendo’s hated the smash scene LONG before then.
@@AllBladesCut Considering how the community split it two when it was found out that Brawl was slower-paced, lacked Wavedashing and L-Canceling, and had random tripping - and that the Melee community has never gotten over that...
Considering how the same Melee community took Brawl and twisted it with a game mod to make it more like Melee...
Considering how one of the big Smash players straight up told the creator that _he'll teach him how to make a game..._
Uh... Yeah, no doubt the company has ill-will towards the community.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Source on Nintendo sending Pinkertons? You may be confusing them with WotC doing that earlier, from my research Nintendo have done no such things. Plus it doesn't make sense for them to hire someone to do so when they have their own Ninjas to do so
I hypothesize that these guidelines are nothing but a legal barrier between Nintendo and the Smash scene that they can point to if/when something happens, and that they won't ever actually enforce any of it unless something egregious happens.
Yep. The smash scene is a ticking time bomb of controversy and Nintendo doesn't want anything to do with it because it would tarnish their "family friendly" brand image.
the smash scene is so oblivious to their image it hurts
@@RADkatewhat is there image?
I don't know why you would infantilize people just for enjoying their favorite game. I think the smash community is generally well moderated, safe, and far less toxic than the Street Fighter community.@@RADkate
@@lydiawilder5996 Yeah I don't get it either. As if the other various FGC communities have *never* had any kind of controversy like Smash has.
If you're planning on doing more of this kind of video in the future, as the episode one in the title seems to imply, do you mind if I make a suggestion for sometime? How come Nintendo hasn't taken down Pokemon showdown? It's a website that lets you build Pokemon teams and play with them against other players online. It completely recreates the games battle system and even uses assets ripped directly from the official games. It's very popular and used by many important competitive players, so I'm sure they have to be aware of it, so it's weird to me that they haven't taken action against it.
I assume that might have something to do with how even the official competitive scene would be hurt if it was taken down without a replacement, but I can't really be certain.
That's a fantastic suggestion. I've been meaning to make a video of some kind about Pokemon Showdown for a long time, but never got around to it. Maybe a Law Review episode will be good for that topic.
Showdown is a fine example of how to do things the right way though. I'll get around to that video eventually -- maybe over the winter!
Nintendo only has 32% ownership of Pokemon. It may be that Creatures and GameFreak are more reasonable and see the value in allowing it to exist, while Nintendo would prefer to ruin the life of whoever created it by putting them in legal debt for life
@@moon-channel thanks so much!
@@Adam_U oh yeah I forgot that
@@Adam_U Yeah I'm almost 100% sure that's what it is. I remember seeing a video on one of Alpharad's secondary channels (pretty sure it was the channel named Not Alpharad) where he said that the people behind Pokemon don't mind RUclipsrs/content creators emulating their games, but he stressed that this was the Pokemon Company saying this and not Nintendo.
So yeah, safe to say that 1) Nintendo doesn't have much power over enforcing Pokemon IP protection and 2) Nintendo and the Pokemon Company's stance on certain things are vastly different from one another.
Wow, huge respect for making a video so fast considering you have a job behind RUclips!
You speak of a lower level of quality, yet I still find this video to be incredibly concise, informative and high-quality, despite it's short production cycle. I suppose having experience as a lawyer does pay off in this regard.
Fantastic video once again Moony!
What the fuck are you talking about Jesse?
He’s a lawyer, so it is low effort by his standards
It's also important to note that Smash Bros contains the IP of many other companies besides Nintendo, so they also need to keep those IP safe and keep their relations with those other companies in good standing
Is it possible that another reason for Smash's strictness is that not all of the characters are owned by Nintendo? It would definitely hurt their relationship with valuable publishers if Nintendo mishandled IPs they don't control
Wouldn't make sense for melee since it doesn't have any third party character or object in it apart from maybe the gadget bombs from 007 but i dont even know if that counts
@Digipt Melee might not have any third party characters but it's still under the Smash umbrella.
@@FreshmanGrimm making separate guidelines for each Smash title is harder for Nintendo to enforce (and harder for fans to adhere to) than one that covers all of them succinctly.
Nintendo isn't "handling" anything when private tournaments operate.
there's probably more of a reason and its community orientated and that's all I'm gonna say
One thing I've seen floating around that is potentially a good point is that this may kill the scene for older Smash games. If you can only do these tournaments with a license, Nintendo is 100% going to require original software. Obviously PM is going to die, but Melee and, to a lesser extent, Brawl are also going to face major challenges keeping their momentum going.
The license only applies for organisations, not tournaments hosted by individuals. That being said, Nintendo is never going to give out a license for anything other than the latest Smash game.
I mean they licensed panda cup which included melee and they understand how huge the melee scene is. Plus pretty much every important tournament runs both games so I doubt they’ll license one game but not the other, and if they do the tournament likely won’t run anyways. If anything Nintendo is trying to kill ult now that the competitive side of the game is starting to die
Unless Nintendo rereleases them yeah it’s gonna be very difficult. And a lot of Mario Kart fans are also worried since games like MKWii or MK7 don’t have online anymore and will make it difficult to host such tournaments.
@@kyallon1213 Panda's dead bro.
@@Cr3zantis it? And how so?
"their vision is based on movement."
such an amazing line tbh
Also really good advice in general. Corpos are large hulking behemoths that don't want to move unless you make them.
@@godlyBlade Huh... and suddenly Regigigas comes to my mind for whatever reason. o.o
I wish more people understood this. I support the smash community in this but so often I wish they would just shut up instead of trying to pitchfork NINTENDO
I saw a bunch of people on the site formerly known as twitter saying they should just spam tournaments because "they cant sue all of us" and thats one of the most stupid things ive read on that site
And made terrifying with Dharkon in front of it lol
Honestly if you've watched the rest of the Moony legal videos on copyright... this is 100% straight faced advice (but not legal advice, he is not our lawyer).
Nintendo wants to maintain the image of SSB as a "party game", not a competitive fighting game. They also don't want their game to be associated with a community that is prone to controversies. I mean, Smash players smelling bad is a meme for a reason.
The impression I’m getting from Nintendo is that it’s all about brand protection. Moon covered a few examples of players Nintendo doesn’t want to come. One not noted is the large amount of sexual harassment cases and child predators (allegedly) associated with the younger audience. Personally, I’m ok with these changes despite being a tournament enjoyer.
i wouldnt be surprise if this is a reacction to last few years series of cases around sex with the smash competitive comunity to the point it has become a joke to non nintendo fans.
I recall there was a case where the predator WAS a child too and somehow the victim still got blamed for it.
And how is making it harder to host tournaments gonna deter or stop or incarcerate child predators? Is it gonna give peace back to the many who have been wrongfully accused of being child predators, one of then being the victim of a minor who sexually harassed them?
@@KyrieFortune Both in population and quality of players. It’s a lot easier to curate attendees when the numbers are smaller. While cases of sexual assault may still happen, it will be harder to hide it among 200 competitors versus let’s say 10,000.
This also has the side effects of causing the community to monitor themselves more closely since the size difference will be more manageable. Such monitoring helps prevent false accusations as well but not guaranteed.
While this might just be a band aid fix, at least it will be a deterrent from creating a hostile environment for children. I don’t know what camp you fall on but I believe this is for the best. For the tournament organizers, safety for the players should be paramount.
This is just my nonprofessional opinion, of course.
@@PathBeyondTheDark Not necessarily, predators can be anywhere and can be LITERALLY ANYONE, including the event organizer, but certainly online events are less dangerous than physical ones in this sense, since online there cannot be sexual assault, at least not during the course of the event. We also have to always keep in mind that there are predators that are in fact very smart and will always look for any way to satisfy their twisted pleasures.
you know, those youtube influencers don't give a shit of nintendo, brand, they just want to ride it until they make money out of it then switch brands. That's why those youtube influencers are the ones who will be very concerned and cry the most out of it, since it is affecting them, not most people who love smash.
So what you're saying is that Smash players have been entitled brats for too long and they've had this coming?
Yeah, that makes sense. Doesn't change the fact that some of the rules are completely asinine.
The hero we need! I was REALLY hoping you'd make a video about this.
Edit: after watching, the one thing I would love to know more about is how you think this might affect melee as a competitive scene. Given the rules surrounding emulators and mods, this has a chance to really shut down the community.
emulators and mods have always been outside of the EULA of Nintendo, it's just not something that has historically been enforced
I can see GC coming to the online service either with the next-gen Switch or shortly after, which would solve the issue for online events, and in-person can be done on console, be it GC, Wii, or the Switch 2.
Hungry box in an update on the issue said much of what you’ve pointed out, that this might actually be a positive step forward if they can keep tournament approval fast
I'm glad to hear that! If anyone can establish good relations with Nintendo on behalf of the Smash community, I am confident that Hungrybox can.
@@moon-channelit definitely helps that Hbox is both passionate about Smash Bros as well as a successful business owner, so he plays on both sides of the coin
Generally speaking, I'm still wary on what this means for regional events (events that COULD be around 200 ish people) due to the restrictions in place between sponsors and general profit. The two extremes are fine in a way but it's that borderline that concerns me. There's also the timing for it that can affect a lot of the early 2024 major events.
I'm sure it will work itself out but I hope it goes smoothly.
200 people is not a lot compared to say 1,000+ people spectating the event. It would be akin to that of the early days of European Speedster Assembly back in the early 2010s as well as Games Done Quick events from 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013.
Might Nintendo also want to be careful with Smash Bros. because it involves some IPs owned by companies outside of Nintendo and they wouldn't want to sour their relationship with their partners?
Doubtful. Nintendo paid for the licensing of those...
That is also a possibility though I doubt it's the main reason.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 It's not so much about licensing, its about brand perception. Companies do not want their brand associated with scandal because its bad for business. So if they lent out their character to use in another game and that game ends up mired in controversy, they end up with egg on their face too.
There no good intention of nintendo by doing that... There NO SCENARY where local tournaments affect nintendos brand.... unless it was patronized by them , a thing that they NEVER would do.
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 yeah but as with the licenses nintendo gives out they are very specific and usually not a "do everything you like" license
More people need to see this.
You're exactly what many people in these communities needed now.
Moony does a great job, doesn't let emotions get the better of him, remains calm and composed, and focuses on the logic first and foremost.
But he’s missing how bad the actual restrictions are for the scene
@@Cris_Blu For Melee perhaps, but probably not for Smash Ultimate.
@Tobunari it’s bad for any grassroots scene, grassroots Smash ultimate literally already has plenty of tournaments that break the rules on size limit and funding; hosting even a midlevel tournament on a budget of $3,000 is really hard. Splatoon is a much newer community than Smash and *already* regularly occurring online tournaments break the participant limit.
These guidelines gut the grassroots community, there’s just no question about it.
@@Cris_Blu we don't know what licenced tourneys would look like yet - it could be bad, but also once you're over 200-300 competitors I wouldn't call that "small" or "run by a single person" at that point.
It may end up not being that bad, but I think the comparison with, for instance, Capcom’s guideline is not very good. Even if their guidelines are similar, the point is that if you want to run bigger event, Capcom doesn’t make it difficult for you to get a license. If Nintendo end up also playing it like that, then, yeah, these guidelines are nothing to worry about. But that’s a very very big IF, given Nintendo’s history with the Smash community, and more specifically with the Melee community. The fear that Nintendo will simply not give out licenses for Melee events is not unfounded, and if that’s what ends up happening, that is the end of the Melee scene, because the restrictions set by the community guidelines definitely kills major events.
I think genesis is licensed alredy no? And panda cup included melee in the licensed circuit so unless mods like slippi or frozen stages are in there should be no problem.
But right now we don't know how hard it will be to get a license from Nintendo as the form isn't out yet, so it could turn out to be comparable
there was a big emotional reaction from the smash community in response to this, understandably so after years of intervention. these rules are ass but thank you for making this video.
I didn't expect you to make a video on this so soon. I really enjoyed you pointing out that the Smash Community is very much an island within the FGC itself. With you saying that, I'm starting to wonder how you do actual lawyering, treat RUclips just as a hobby to make videos you want to do, and /still/ have a pulse on everything. I know you said that someone sent this to you, but for you to mention the insular interaction of the community I feel requires a bit of prior knowledge to just smoothly mention it as you did. Great stuff as always!
first off, good video, great channel, jus givin my 2 cents. i feel like promoting the narrative of smash players being overly-vocal reactionaries is disengenous when you consider the incredible amounts of damage nintendo has done to the scene through their targeted actions over the years. it feels like a lot of statements you make are reasonable in a broader context, but when applied to this specific situation come across as bad-faith criticism. yes, every other top fighting game has had intimate relation with their respective scenes for years, meanwhile nintendo has targeted active aggression at the smash community on numerous occasions for years, so them releasing a set of guidelines like this has a very different implication than say, capcom releasing updated guidelines for SF tournaments. this perception of nintendo is borne from years of verifiable evidence. i can understand some regulation, like not allowing the use of mods (this is not suprising) but even before such mods were used at tournaments, nintendo actively attempted to shut melee down, with the most famous case being the evo 2013 incident where the melee bracket was almost cancelled after they raised over 200k for charity to get that spot. the accesibility of licenses thus far seems to indicate that these guidelines will improve the relationship, but it's completely understandable for community members to read it without that knowledge in the beginning and make reasonable assumptions about how nintendo is going to treat them. especially when there are guidelines that appear strict to the point of being legitimately unenforcable. i just dislike the narrative that people like me just need to "take the L" when nintendo threatens to damage one of my favorite social outlets and pasttimes.
this point of course, is not being applied to smash players who were guilty of heinous and disgusting behaviors and were outsted from their respective subcommunities. i would never imply the community is perfect, and vigilance to report innappropriate behaviors must remain resolute at all times.
You can have community without Smash. Smash is not and will never be an asset to Nintendo. Nintendo is a corporation with over 7500 employees that primarily trade on IP to generate revenue and profit. Hence, Nintendo will protect its IP from anyone including fans. Plus who told the Smash community they are entitled to exist as a money making entity anyway?
As usual, this is an excellently written and structured video. Congratulations on getting it out so quickly. That poll was what, three days ago?
As much as I want agree with your predictions of a more sustainable future for Smash, Nintendo's past behavior leaves me anxious, to say the least. My concern doesn't lie in the guidelines for individuals. Rather, I fear Nintendo will use the existence of these guidelines as an excuse to place hard limits on the size and scope of the Smash scene moving forward. Smash World Tour tried to apply for a commercial license for years, while Nintendo remained silent, mercurial in their requirements, and were outright dismissive of what was set to be the most professional and beloved smash event the community could put together. Granted, to my knowledge there werent official licensing guidelines in place beyond applications and handshakes, but for Nintendo to essentially 180 in their approach with both community organizers and event licenses is something I'd need to see happen *repeatedly* in order to believe.
And that is completely fair: the Smash community has every reason to be skittish. I mentioned this a bit in the video, but these guidelines do look like both olive branch and crackdown -- it shows Nintendo is willing to invest more into the competitive Smash (and Splatoon, and Mario Kart, etc.) communities, as opposed to actively opposing their very existences before. But, investment in the communication and constructive side will also likely mean investment into policy enforcement, and how that pans out remains to be seen.
@@moon-channel From what I've seen, a lot of people are worried that this doesn't show that Nintendo is willing to invest more into its competitive scene. In terms of commercial licenses, there's two ways to read between the lines of these guidelines:
More optimistically,
"Moving forward, getting licenses for tournaments will be easier. These guidelines exist to tell you if we think that you're 'big enough' that you need to apply for a license."
More pessimistically,
"Moving forward, getting licenses for tournaments will be as difficult as it is now. These guidelines exist to tell you if we think your tournament is 'too big'."
In your video, you assumed the more optimistic interpretation, and I'm inclined to agree with you. However, I think the more pessimistic interpretation is completely fair, especially considering Nintendo's history with certain competitive scenes. The prominent community leaders who are coming together to say "we're not going to follow these rules" aren't doing so out of spite - they're doing so because they're pessimistic, and see it as there only choice.
And I think it's reasonable for them to come to that conclusion (assuming a pessimistic interpretation of the guidelines), because some of these rules are *very* restrictive. Sure the sponsor thing sucks, the participant limit is really low and the limit on admission fees is suffocating, but in my opinion the worst rule is the one about how a TO can only make up to $10,000 a year. There are people who's job it is to run these tournaments, and for those people there's only one way to "work around" these guidelines - get a new job, because you can't be a tournament organizer full-time anymore.
What I'm really concerned about is if these licenses are applied unevenly. I think that you're right that Nintendo is going to start giving more licenses to the community, but what if when the time comes, all the Melee applicants get turned down? It's not a ridiculous scenario - after all, the melee scene has always been the one that was most at odds with Nintendo.
@@moon-channel I just realized that some of your channel's revenue goes to charity. That's very kind of you to do.
@@mogoscratcher5703 "after all, the melee scene has always been the one that was most at odds with Nintendo."
Well of course it has been. I remember the fallout from the E for All thread on Smashboards when Gimpyfish reported Brawl had no Wavedashing or L-Canceling - that's when the community broke in two.
And the whole The Big House situation, which iirc, Nintendo was a _sponsor,_ and the TO's tried to squeak by having people play Melee online with dumped ROMs (Which, you can't legally dump Melee due to requiring a hacked/modifed console to dump the ROM), on stream, in a Nintendo sponsored tournament - before Nintendo slapped them with the C&D, because letting the public see a Nintendo sponsored tournament where people play Melee, a game without inherent Online capabilities, on PCs not a Nintendo console, would be a _very bad image_ Nintendo would show to _investors_ by publicly admitting people could "pirate their games."
Hi Moonie, Melee representative here. I have followed your work since your first Nintendo video and have found it very eye-opening and interesting, but I wanted to add a cautionary note after watching a majority of this video based on my decade and a half in the Melee community.
I agree with your points about Nintendo's concerns about branding and now IP after watching your videos. However, I believe the nature of our community does not fit neatly into Nintendo's need to keep their IP/branding clean, and will not after these guidelines are in place. After all, like you said, couldn't someone just say something awful or some other controversy could occur and now its partnered with an OFFICIALLY LICENSED Nintendo tournament? This could be much more dangerous for Nintendo. Their terms for community events also don't allow for any sustainability for the events, or for their growth into becoming an event that could be the size where partnering with Nintendo makes sense. Could small events also partner with Nintendo? Maybe, but given how Nintendo reacted to previous sponsor deals we had when they started to become lucrative, it seems that Nintendo is actively against tournament organizers being profitable even in a larger scale. I believe this will be made apparent when their licensed events guidelines release, but even if they do allow for reasonable profit, I have other concerns.
Namely, they have shut down our community in particular in all kinds of ways over the years and even wanted to shut down non-licensed events with the cancellation of a previous circuit. A lot of this was done behind closed doors and with slow responses to whittle down the enthusiasm of various groups that wanted to just things out of passion for our scene. You can argue that these guidelines indicate a change of heart, but from our perspective there is no reason to see it that way. It seems far more likely that they will quickly have a lot of licensed events and therefore names and information of everyone running events. This would make the community much easier to act against as opposed to just striking occasionally or seemingly at random. Consider a community wide takedown of events because Nintendo decides a controversy is suddenly a community-wide problem that is unfixable and therefore the scene must be purged or punished to show they are doing something. Organizers go bankrupt, narratives are lost, years of work gone.
Nintendo is a big company that doesn't make decisions quickly, which likely explains why things have been going more slowly. Nintendo didn't want us streaming our game at Evo 2013, an event that catapaulted Smash into the mainstream and still keeps us relevant to this day. The pushback was ENORMOUS and likely changed how Nintendo approached our scene as a whole. If not for our backlash we could be gone by now, which is much more preferable from an IP standpoint, no? For branding reasons too this would be true: Nintendo creates an image of fun for everyone and attempts to make games that way. So when competitions exist, some people must lose. This is an inherent push against Nintendo's branding and one which the developer himself has also spoken against many times over the years.
Based on all of this, I believe their approach has changed to one of slowly gaining control of us as opposed to one of working with us. If they wanted to work with us, wouldn't they apologize for shutting us/trying to shut us down before? Wouldn't they say they want to make things right? Wouldn't they acknowledge that there are those of us that are hurt? Wouldn't they take community feedback into consideration?
I would LOVE nothing more than Nintendo to work with us openly and warmly and talk to our organizers and come up with solutions that work best for everyone, as opposed to telling us how things have to be. I would be happy with them leaving us alone. I am worried about their current actions based on my entire time in this community.
Thanks for your thoughtful videos, and your time reading this if you choose to.
Holy shit its PPMD
Nintendo cannot work with the Smash community openly as they would be accused of condoning tournaments if anything went amiss at any one of them. Not enough is gained from the competitive Smash community to take that risk.
It's great to see such a detailed write-up from such a notable presence in the scene. You really know what you're talking about, which is admirable.
If someone says something awful, or does something controversial, Nintendo would rather have direct and executive control over the situation than leave it to a third party which they can only indirectly influence through takedowns or other seemingly arbitrary means of enforcement. Could smaller events partner with Nintendo? Partner might be the wrong word here: the big events aren't necessarily partnered either, they are merely licensed, and the "Community Tournament Guidelines" are pursuant to a community tournament license (which happens to be free, if you follow the rules).
Getting to the heart of your write-up though, right now, the most I can say is that this is a genuine change in direction for Nintendo. All community tournament guidelines, whether that's Capcom's, EA's, or Nintendo's, are drafted, in part, to provide the respective company control over their competitive community.
Are these guidelines an invitation to cooperate? Are these guidelines an attempt to control and dismantle the scene? Are these guidelines drafted with the purpose of excluding the legacy competitive communities, while legitimizing the contemporary ones? It's just too early to say, but my intuition, given the language in the draft, is that these guidelines aren't a shot across the bow: they appear closer to an invitation to cooperate, which the Melee community understandably doesn't trust. It's drafted with stricter policies than everyone else's Community Tournament Guidelines, sure, but that's Nintendo for you.
Don't expect Nintendo to ever state that they want to "make things right" with the melee community in any direct means. Big companies don't operate in those terms as we understand them: they reserve that language for shareholders, not fan communities. Think of them like bats: they echolocate -- they make decisions, and hear the echo -- they can gather more data than an individual, but they don't have an individual's clarity of vision.
This may be Nintendo trying to figure out how to bring its long estranged competitive scene into a more cooperative embrace, albeit, in a graceless manner. This could also be a strangling hug: again, I'm afraid I can't say -- not yet. These are just Community Tournament Guidelines: the truly important thing to watch is how the licensing for larger events pans out.
No matter what happens though, you can be sure that Nintendo won't just leave you alone. The law doesn't allow them to do that.
@@moon-channel Thank you so much for responding! It's great to get your expertise and also to use these times to establish dialogue to learn more.
I am curious about why you feel optimistic seeing this. Would something more ominous, like another tournament takedown be what you consider to be against us? And furthermore, what financial incentive is there for them to work with us when their casual market is much larger and their entire branding? Why spend resources on this when we are, in their eyes, a liability?
Big companies may not use emotional language like making things right, but surely there is a way individuals in places of authority could admit that to us, at least to some in private. Considering also how they treat their competitive Splatoon and Pokemon tournaments, having low prize money(the best splatoon players play for gift cards last I heard) and little marketing do not embolden us to think they will be asking for our cooperation but rather our compliance.
I have more things I could say, but perhaps they will seem nit-picky or they just won't be helpful right now. In the end I am truly glad to see someone as thoughtful and informed as you covering this and having a discussion with me. I am always hoping for the best for our scene, however it can happen.
@@PPMD1 Yeah, might need to drop the bias, separate yourself from the community, and take a breath a little. Because otherwise I don't think you can approach this subject in much a mature manner, as you might think you could.
Sure, Sakurai has some out spoken thoughts against Nintendo here and there, but not in a way that the Smash community has. As he has also spoken that he still will, and happily so, continue to work with Nintendo. So it's best not to conflate the two.
Finally, I will say, your history with Nintendo, as from the community perspective, is not at all as Black and White as you may think. As is according to Kit and Krysta, who as when they actually mentioned it upon the Panda Global stuff, and therefore no longer an employee to Nintendo anymore at that time. Talk of the uncooperativeness of the community in the past. Made even further apparent in an interview involving one of the former Pro Melee Samus player, and someone who got to see behind the scenes in Nintendo, on PlayerEssence's channel. They talk about 2013 evo, and what really went on back then (it's pretty bad, considering Mr. Wizard was involved back then). Highlighting the fact that "trust" is a two way street, and that the community needs to earn Nintendo's trust as much as Nintendo does to them.
Both sides are stubborn in the way that they are. Big difference between Nintendo and the community though, is that Nintendo has little to not much choice but to act in this way. Meanwhile the community, it isn't beholden to act in the way that they're doing. They're free to defy and butt heads, or go with Nintendo's guidelines and shake their hand. The community has the ability to be the bigger person here. But will they though, or will they go with their emotions and be stubborn? Unfortunately, as history has shown here, the chances of being stubborn is too high.
While I see your point that having clear rules can be helpful, I think your notion that people should be thankful for the giant corporation giving them strict rules so they can maximize their profits is kinda silly.
Like I understand that it was the logical conclusion of the way everything works, but clearly something should be done by consumers to take those rights back, and it doesn't appear like there is going to be any meaningful help from legislators, so I think it's fine for people to flip out, and make a lot of noise.
An important difference to note between the Smash community and other fighting games like Street Fighter is that Nintendo really doesn't do large scale official tournaments to the degree that companies like Capcom does, so Smash fans are forced to pick up the slack in Nintendo's absence. Because of that, the guidelines feel much more offensive seeing as Nintendo not only does barely anything for the competitive community, but they're actively hurting its ability to function.
Nintendo does not want to be a pro tournament organizer because unlike Street Fighter the Smash franchise does not rely on e-sports for exposure and profitability. Nothing to gain for them other than being attached by the hip to a volatile community that refuses to grow up from their rag tag grassroot origins.
Likely because Smash isn’t made to be competitive.
Moony is a gift from gaming's legal department.
My 2 biggest frustrations which weren’t directly addressed here are 1- how restrictive the monetary caps on tournaments are, considering how underfunded the competitive smash scene already is, and 2- the fact that Nintendo still does not offer any official alternative to these tournaments that now appear to be under increased scrutiny. I appreciate your analysis but these two concerns still feel far from assuaged and the end of the runtime.
If I may, I might suggest a reason for both:
1. Possibly to limit community tournaments from requiring more legal mumbo jumbo associated with running bigger venues and things of that particular sort, or needing to acquire a license from Nintendo.
2. The official alternative tournaments are the much bigger tournaments that have received a license from Nintendo, not the smaller community ones that the guidelines focus on.
These guidelines are for community tournaments only, these dont apply to majors
@@Alphahunter456So... where lies the difference?
Competitive Smash, according to Nintendo, is not intended to turn a profit unless licenced by them.
It's not "turning off the funding", it's "shutting down the concept". Personally I like that, and for Nintendo, it must seem good to them.
@@wilsan806These guidelines outline the difference with utmost clarity, the differences are:
Size
Profit motive
Organisation
Licencing.
If your tournament is smaller than 200 people, not-for-profit, organised by one person and not licenced, it's community.
If your tournament is licenced, or larger than 200 people, or explicitly for profit with sponsorships, or run by an organisation other than an individual, it is not community, and must be licenced.
I think the Smash Community listen to pro players and community members with no knowl of what their talking about.
It's always the popular opinion or critical thinking.
Nintendo didn't even shutdown Smash World Tour, that was all VGC. People still don't know that because they rather listen to one side or their favorite players.
Think more.
I feel you overlooked a large thing that I feel is at the crux of this drama; these guidelines deliberately go after older titles. Particularly Smash Bros Melee.
From excluding it from the games that are allowed to be run (they explicitly list 15 nintendo switch games as being allowed), to the banning of 3rd party networking methods (slippi dolphin), the banning of 3rd party controllers and accessories (box controllers, and arduino adapters), and the banning of game modifications (no qol mods), they are all guidelines that deliberately target that niche of competitive smash and the things that they've done to help not just with the competitive nature of the game but with the playability of the game in a current day context. Smash is still a multimedia product that nintendo has financial interest in, and Melee still being in the cultural zeitgeist draws attention away from their newest titles. So if wouldn't surprise me if the future licensing deals that we see for larger tournaments make a point to exclude older games and make tournaments into more of a vector for marketing instead of the more grassrooots driven events they currently are.
I'm going to select this comment to address this question, as it has been asked a few times.
The video touches upon this, but doesn't go into detail: the Melee community has never been allowed to use 3rd party networking methods, or 3rd party controllers and accessories, or game modifications. Even prior to the new Community Tournament Guidelines, none of these have been allowed as per Nintendo's usage agreements.
The Melee community uses them anyway, and Nintendo's enforcement has been relatively arbitrary, yet also not always present.
What the new guidelines change in this respect is nothing: if the Melee community wants to use these utilities, they will continue to do so in defiance of Nintendo's rules and agreements. The guidelines do, however, provide some legitimate avenue to run a competitive melee scene, if the players are willing to play ball. That decision, ultimately, is up to the Melee community.
@moon-channel Holy crap, was not expecting you to respond!
I want to clarify that I feel you managed to get your overall point across in a very clear and forward manner and I don't disagree with it. I just felt the need to add that bit of context behind everything as well as give a bit of perspective as to where the smash community is coming from and give my 2 cents on how I think Nintendo views melee and competitive smash in terms of them as a company and IP holder.
Keep up the good work as usual! I look forward to the (sadly delayed) Halloween special.
After thinking it through, I've decided I'm also going to say the quiet part out loud, and make the subtext here a little more obvious.
The flip side of this is, if the Melee community, or even a mere faction of it, does play ball, and Nintendo realizes "hey, wait, people like this way more than we thought, and there's opportunity for profit that we're leaving on the table", we may yet see better licensed controllers, maybe even cooperation with your favorite third party developers to make officially licensed products, or competitive netcode fixes, or a playable Melee deluxe with all the fix-ins, or what-have-you.
Large corporations are like Ents in the Lord of the Rings: they are powerful, but consider things slowly, course correct ponderously, and do so from a very narrow perspective. These changes are, very possibly, just such a first attempt to course correct, as graceless as it appears to be.
Think of it almost like echolocation: Nintendo (or any big company really) "hears" much better than a person, and can collect more data, but it can't really "see" with an individual's clarity. It makes a decision, and then weighs the response, before then making further decisions using the data that it has already collected.
Whether or not the this actually targets Melee, I do think that is where a lot of the concern is coming from. I know many in the Melee community have felt overlooked by Nintendo and the larger esports community for a while now. This may seem like confirmation of those feelings. I know people for whom local ad hoc Melee tournaments were an important part of their younger years. I can easily imagine them feeling defensive (justifiably or not) about something that might appear to be an end to that scene.
@@moon-channel The thing that worries me is if Nintendo were to make a Melee Deluxe or something for the switch. It is almost impossible to make a version that the current Melee community would be happy with. Considering the fact that input delay would completely mess up the scene. Melee is popular because of the amount of skill and responsive controls. If you add Ultimate input lag into it for instance. Certain stuff will just become impossible. Also Nintendo online has never been good. Just look at Ultimate online or the amount of Disconnects that happen in Splatoon. (Not claiming you stated that btw. Just saying i don't think Nintendo and Slippi could work together cause of Nintendos shitty online)
The thing that makes the Melee community scared is all the mods and stuff we have in tournament is to make Melee the best it can possibly be. UCF is a huge example. Remove that and the game becomes hell to play for top players.
Thank you very much for the video tho. More eyes and more perspective is amazing especially from someone like you. Looking forward to the other parts. :D
This is all well and good for Ult, but I am concerned this is going to set Melee back half a decade since no modifications means no online tournaments unless Nintendo suddenly decides to re-release Melee with online capabilities (not to mention the loss of UCF will make the highest levels of play inaccessible). Having said as much I'm not a Melee or an Ult player, I'm a PM player and this doesn't really change anything for us. Here's hoping Rivals 2 gets off the ground
All NSO apps have had online support, I don't see them not doing that for GameCube when that inevitably happens. They already have the emulator written for Mario 3D All Stars, so a lot of it will just be updating it to work with other games and add multiplayer & online support.
Ultimately it really comes down to how the licenses are handled. When systems like Splatoon's collegiate scene and low-level scene are exclusively operated by tournaments that break these guidelines it can be very worrying when Nintendo has historically been very stingy with them.
I think I’ve made a similar comment in a previous video, but thank you for always swooping in with level headed analysis and takes. Most people tend to look at the worst case scenario and run with it, so having videos like these to push the conversation in a more reasonable and informed direction is super helpful.
For older smash games like melee this is still very very bad. Nintendo will never allow modded versions of the game to be played, which kills all online melee tournaments. Even if you have a licensed in person tournament, you'd technically be in violation of Nintendo's guidelines if you use UCF.
Smash Competitive Community: Why Does Nintendo Hate us?
Also SCC: *Over 100 players accused of Sexual crimes in a single year including rape and pedophilia*
I do think the way these laws can end online melee tournaments completely is something that cannot be ignored, a lot of the growth of melee recently has come from access to really good matchmaking and rollback netcode. After this passes, the only legal online tournaments will be on switches, with Ultimate's netcode being not great (to understate it).
I know they have to protect their IP but at the same time it's understandably hard to see someone claim ownership of a thing that other than releasing a game in 2001, they've done very little to support and have tried to kill it several times, and be told "this is a good thing" when they place restrictions that if enforced negatively impact the community's ability to grow outside of offline tournaments, which can be hours away for some folks.
The Melee community brought that on itself. Doing major online events with modded, pirated software made by an entity that is a major opponent of ROMs and emulators isn't just poking the bear, its holding a bullhorn up to its ear.
@@nohrianscum9791 what alternative is there if you want to play a game during a major pandemic? sorry, but I don't think that IP law should be as powerful as it is and does nothing to help consumers and gives brands the ability to just wipe out tons of goodwill and claim shit they didn't work to create. give us an equivalent experience on switch, or hire the devs to make something official. telling people "you can't play this online" during an ongoing pandemic is not the answer.
@@a_dogpghyou can not mod a game in that way and expect to not be opposition. It does not only support modding it supports piracy, while it is fine it it remains low profile, when it is highlighted is when it becomes problematic. The option is to simply not play the game, the community does not own melee to claim it on their own, it was always done because nintendo let that to be. And the decision to make something with it is up to them.
Sure we can ask constantly for it, but not force them to do it if they are not willing to,
Why should ip laws help consumers when they have not been part of the creation and growth of said ip? If you argue they contribute to sales then everyone who buys a game then should be allowed to have a say in melee? I do not think that is right both legally and morally. Yeah it is sad that something so incredible is locked, but there is no available option that would not hurt or threaten nintendo that could work on my knowledge. Maybe if Nintendo provides the option by itself, but that is something up to them to decide, they know their resources, their manpower and their commitment to challenge that operation, not us, so only they know if they can make that thing happen.
We as consumers, can only have a say in our consumption, we like it we buy, we do not like it, we do not buy, i myself have avoid certain nintendo products, like the fire emblem 1 collection, that are atractive to me but for abusive business practice is not something i am willing to support, maybe if the next smash game does not sell as well, the message can be clear, although of course is something difficult to achieve over the massive fanbase smash has. An how little smash community is in comparison.
@@a_dogpgh I'm sure NoA would also love better copyright laws, like not risking losing trademarks because a product or branding gets too widespread (such as the case with Velcro).
@@nohrianscum9791 To add to the other reply here, you have to consider that most other major fighting-game developers have fully embraced rollback netcode since COVID while Nintendo remains stuck in the stone age. Online play for fighting games is simply not viable at a competitive level without rollback, so of course the players are going to take matters in their own hands if they receive no official support on the matter. Other devs have been implementing rollback into their retro re-releases as well as previous newer games (e.g. Samurai Shodown, Dragon Ball FighterZ), so there's no excuse for Nintendo not to do so for Melee. There was nothing else they could've done here.
My big takeaway from this and the Minecraft EULA video is that the companies aren't preparing more and more "lightning bolts" like it feels like they are, they're simply letting us know what things provoke the bolts. While we all wish they would just stop throwing lightning bolts, as least they don't have to be coming at random; We know what provoked them when they strike.
Those lightning bolts are for the protection of their IPs.
Damn, even having watched the previous video about Nintendo from you I was a lil mad at them for what they did. Now I understand the topic more clearly, thank you! Expertise really is something huh
Even before watching this video, my hypothesis is that Nintendo is doing this precisely as a way to regain control of there Smash Bros IP which has been so unceremoniously dragged through the mud by the unprofessionalism and controversies coming out of the Smash community.
I see it as more 'follow the leader' scenario - apparently other companies revised their guidelines, so Nintendo did the same to be current.
But I also don't have doubt part of it's to focus primarily on the latest entry than the 2nd of a currently six game franchise.
Guidelines so that you can run tournaments without incurring the wrath of Nintendo sounds good on paper, but these guidelines seem hyper targeted at making it inhospitable for the competitive scene to exist at all.
Yeah, there are some good points made in this video especially regarding how greater IP/Copyright Law is connected with the situation, but a **major** issue with this analysis is that it assumes Nintendo is a company that operates like any other company and just wants to defend itself.
Nintendo despises us. Maybe Ultimate players will be fine, and this video would apply to their community, but they absolutely want Melee dead (and lets not even get into mods like Project M).
These guidelines will, at best, be used to force compromise from the Melee community in order to specifically hurt it (particularly where modifications such as UCF, Frozen Stadium, and especially Slippi are concerned) and at worst outright crush it.
I’d love to believe that it’s just Nintendo covering their ass, that’d be fine, but I cannot possibly give them the benefit of the doubt given their past behavior and interaction with the Melee community.
Emphasis on the “maybe” regarding Ultimate, btw. I still wouldn’t trust Nintendo even as an Ultimate player. Or a Splatoon player. And god help your souls if a new Smash game comes out and a non-insignificant amount of the players prefer Ultimate.
If the tourney scene is making a profit while also smirching the brand, then yeah, it deserves to be shut down.
Only this community would argue with a literal lawyer.
@@Ultimalockedget off your high horse, project m was a better version of their own game that also required ( for a time ) enabling piracy on your Wii. No fucking SHIT they wanted it slowed down.
Finally a nuanced take 😂
you didnt touch on how theres a very short list of games they offer licenses for. I think that's the biggest issue
I’ve watched this video from you Moony and I’ve watched a video from, in my opinion, a level headed ex tournament organizer that I respect, and I have a few comments I need to get off my chest. You’ve changed my mind on quite a few things but I feel like you lack the perspective of the tournament organizer in this video; I am not one myself, but maybe I can explain where their arguments have convinced me where yours have not.
You express optimism over Nintendo’s clarification of what it likes and dislikes, and hope that it will bring an end to the “random lightning strikes from God” but the fundamental fact that I’m getting from TOs is that this problem will not be alleviated.
The issue is that if grassroots nintendo games TOs follow these guidelines to the letter to avoid Nintendo’s wrath, either they completely **gut** their current grassroots scene (in the case of smash where many midsized tournaments already break these rules and could not be feasibly run within a budget of 3,000) or they destroy any chance that their grassroots community has to grow (such as the new scene for Splatoon 3, which has some tournaments already starting to break the participant cap).
What is the result? The result is TOs unanimously agreeing that they will carry on as usual and hope that Nintendo just doesn’t enforce their rules, not because they are protesting, but because if they followed their their rules the reach of grassroots organizations would become insignificant. Thus, Nintendo’s whim on whether to enforce these rules or not becomes the new “random lightning strikes from God”. I do not blame Nintendo for wanting to hamper the profit potential of these events and protect their IP; but the lines they’ve drawn in the sand are suffocating and these events have historically been run at a loss anyways! This isn’t even mentioning the banning of selling food and water at these events or the fact that trying to get an official license from Nintendo could takes from months to a year just for the correspondence, or numerous other policies that make life hard for tournament organizers for little reason that other similar guidelines just don’t do!
Finally, this last part is just a matter of opinion, but while we agree that US copyright laws are chaotic, I do not see these guidelines as a source of stability but as a toxic symptom of the US’s atrocious system. Personally, and I do not know how this is in other countries, but the fact that Nintendo can or maybe even needs to encroach *this* far into grassroots events is unacceptable, the fact that video game tournaments may constitute public performance akin to a public showing a movie is absolutely nonsense devoid of the context of what video games even are, and I don’t believe that, aside from the power to force others to remove your branding, logos, and IP names; companies should have any say in what events that involve their legally bought game do, especially not restricting the modification of those legally bought games.
If you bothered to read through this, whoever you are, thank you and have a wonderful day
I'm not a lawyer, but I assumed this was similarly or less enforceable than a EULA due to noone agreeing.
There's not even an official way to play melee online, and if there was it probably wouldn't be as good as Slippi.
People will still use UCF, slippi, phobs,hitboxxes, and I just don't see anyone bending the knee on that.
As someone who mods controllers as a hobbey, I certainly won't. It's an anti-competitive practice and anti-accesibility.
I've sent messages to my State's representative hoping to get some law that allows sites to archive and preserve any game or software, but preserves the IP rights of the holder. The current laws are BS.
Overall a great video with some great points! Personally, I think Nintendo deserves a little more criticism for how restrictive these policies are compared to others. Virtually all other esports community guidelines offer official branding resources and explicitly allow you to use those resources AND the game's title for promotion, albeit with some caveats. The 10k **per year** prizing limit, in conjunction with the attendance limit, is also egregiously restrictive and unnecessarily hurts smaller tournaments that occur more often. Nintendo's approach is all stick with no carrot, and I think that those who are in support of these guidelines need to be transparent about how much more restrictive they are. For example, the Alex Gonzalez (CEO of Luminosity) tweet seemed disingenuous to say the least. I *really* appreciate that you went over the Street Fighter V Community License Agreement and mentioned how strict Nintendo's guidelines are by comparison.
Nintendo's guidelines could also have used another editing pass given the typos and vague phrasings. Between that, the lack of transparency surrounding the enforcement of these guidelines, and the current absence of the license application, my outlook isn't quite as positive as yours. This is clearly not Nintendo putting their best foot forward.
Honestly, I think it would be best for the community to transition towards non-Nintendo games that don't have **so much** valuable IP wrapped up in them, but that probably isn't going to happen anytime soon.
You understand Capcom and Namco are trying to subsume all tournaments for their fighting games right? They are not nicer than Nintendo to the fan base for fun, they are trying to become the only tournament organizer in town, like Riot games with League of Legends and Valorant.
Street Fighter and Tekken life's blood is the tournament scene and without them those franchises would cease to be profitable enough to produce. The Smash community conversely is not the reason Smash is profitable and hence only serves as a threat to potentially lower sales of the game.
@@Shinjiduo , I understand that the motivations are fundamentally different for Nintendo and that the guidelines reflect that. Big people in the competitive Smash community have implied or outright said that Nintendo's guidelines are basically the same when they clearly are not, and that was the reason behind my comment.
@@Badum- I got ya now. Nintendo is not trying to get that e-sports money. In fact, they want to quell pro competition of their IP as much as possible. I think Nintendo makes these overtures just to maintain a status quo that paints them as hostile to the Pro competitive Smash community for appearance sake as widespread enforcement of these guidelines is likely not worth the expense to them.
@@Shinjiduo You're probably correct on that. Posturing is a weirdly important aspect of this in certain places; you need plausible deniability that you tried to protect your IP. There's also the PR aspect that you're referencing; they don't want to present themselves as endorsing the scene as a whole, especially after the big controversies.
My main worry is that the community may not advocate enough for itself if people present these guidelines as standard. Enough bad PR could cause Nintendo to ease up a bit, and I guarantee that the license application process and the guideline enforcement are going to restrict things even more severely. Withholding those things, while also communicating with certain esports orgs *behind closed doors*, was probably a deliberate strategy to mitigate PR backlash.
people need to understand something. if you keep poking the bear, the bear will continue to get more angry. such as people saying "pirate nintendo" "fuck nintendo" or "fuck nintendo rules". i want to let you know something, you are not helping. our goal should be to build a relationship with nintendo, not dig ourselves a bigger hole. and also getting a license can remove multiple of of the guildlines. recently sumabato, a japanese smash major, just got a license for 10 more iterations.
also i want to say if we are in the middle of building a good relationship with nintendo and then some random controvery involving death threats, pedophila, etc. you will have no idea how mad i and possibly many people in the smash community will be really mad because of those person/s ruining it all.
Thank you for saying this!!
this is as bad a take as telling someone to forgive and get back together with someone that straight up abused the fuck out of them and left them to die.
i like how tons of your content is just "yo, *insert community here* chill out. its not that bad." you are really good at diffusing these situations, and hopefully your channel grows much larger so you can help more people not panic about legal stuff.
Then providing virtually no substantial evidence showing how it's not terrible for the community while pandering to multi-billion dollar corporations. "It's not the bad because we now have guidelines showing how truly awful it is" isn't a positive thing.
@@ck9618It’s only bad if you’re greedy and entitled and trying to profit off of other people’s IP.
yo this is like the first time I have ever heard of Luxembourg being mentioned in a video about videogames. So people do know we exist lol.
Do you think that larger events for modded versions of Smash games, such as Project M/Project+, will now become impossible? Since modified versions of games are disallowed in the guidelines and will surly be denied on an application for a license.
In 2021, the tournament Riptide got a CnD instructing it to remove Project+. Ever since then Project+ has been run at technically separate events in the same or nearby venue as the major smash tournaments. And Nintendo doesn’t do anything about that. They’re clearly aware of Project+ but only cared to put their foot down in that first instance with Riptide.
Project+ majors usually hover around 100 entrants, less than the 200 entrants for unlicensed events. But some upcoming events the Project+ scene has been building may exceed 200.
Based on your knowledge of tournament guidelines for other companies and how they’ve been enforced, do you think Nintendo cares enough to enforce the guidelines for every single event? Can Project+ continue to live under the radar? Do all Project+ events have to cap out at 200? If we’re breaking the guideline of no modified games, does it matter if we break another one?
For our game and our community to survive we have no choice but to defy the guidelines every single event. By the very nature of our game. This may not be the end of the world for the broader smash community, but this could be the end of our world.
It's worth noting that Smash brothers differs itself from other esports in that the entirety of its competitive growth has been a result of these community tournaments. If the guidelines were strictly related to conduct and branding, it would be much more understandable than gutting the growth potential of independent tournaments that could become major events in the future.
it's criminal that not MORE nintendo aligned content creators watch you. so Much misinformation and panic could be destroyed if you would be more promoted by these people.
Slightly more intelligent hot takes are always better than the hot takes that dominate the first wave of reactions to stuff like this because it lets people take a moment to slow down and wonder if there really is something else going on
amazing video, as always. i hope Hungrybox and other community figures see this!
I’m so grateful for your channel and these types of analysis of these types of issues. Even more so that it comes from a place of both passion & understanding for the subject matter; coming at it not from one side or the other, but from a position of understanding of both sides.
Moony, you never fail to impress me with the quality of these videos, you know that? Even in the one that is supposed to be "quick and dirty" (this one) the value of the commentary and, by extension, the quality of the video is impeccable as always!
Can't wait for the Halloween special (even if it comes out late)! Speaking of, you dressing Maya or Phoenix (or yourself) up as anything this year? I myself was watching this video as I was sewing my dress (Cirno from Touhou Project)!
Tangent aside, amazing video as always! Much love from my little corner of the internet!
Was waiting for your take on this! Especially among a sea of fearmongering, you've always kept a cool and informed mind while discussing these topics.
As always with the Smash controversies, the big voices try to sway using emotion over logic. Because if they took a step back they'd realize what its about.
Melee players of course are upset, but considering how that side of the community has always been...
The more I watch moon channel the more I feel videogames guidelines are more "We don't mind just don't make our life hard" than "Please never do this ever again because we hate this."
Correct me if im wrong.
The Internet has exposed the fact that a large percentage of every community is filled with ill intention-ed people thus if you have a family friendly IP you want to protect it from them.
it always felt more like a sorta. "In case of emergency" sorta thing. Honestly most companies dont care... but when things get loud.. people talk.. and your name gets dropped multiple times... you kinda need to take notice.
There is also the difference between how a community treats a product, and what a product is intended for.
The way I see it is that Nintendo is just controversy-averse. They don't want their name to be out there in the same sentence as "scandal", regardless of how remote the connection is. Remember, Nintendo IP's are supposed to appear in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics but backed out because of the pandemic; it is argued that they don't want to be connected to the event should it flop. Nintendo never said anything about why they backed out but you can see a pattern...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Nintendo see themselves as the Disney of video games with Mario as their Mickey Mouse (which is probably right - I'd expect that Mario & Pikachu are probably the top 2 most recognisable video game characters), and as Moony said in the Nintendo copyright video, like Disney, Nintendo IS their IP. If they lose control of their IP then they're nothing.
I always appreciate your level headed explanations of these types of situations.
“not legal advice btw lol”
I love you so much, Moony.
Once again, you are the voice of reason where so many “passionate” Smash Bros fans and players are jumping the gun and complaining about stuff they barely understand (Mostly for clout).
I say this as the highest compliment, I always forget Moony is a lawyer because he is a lawyer with a soul. That isn't to say no lawyers have souls. it's just.... some of them... are kind of so aggressive about not having an opinion, it feels creepy and soulless. I'm really glad Moony isn't like that.
The fact he uses Maya Fey as a sort of mascot for his slideshows speaks how absolutely funny of a man he is, that Eula joke around 1:41 had me chuckling.
Whaaat, the competitive Smash community once again threw a totally out-of-proportion tantrum and unfairly painted Nintendo as a company that "hates their fans"? And then almost everybody on the internet simply copied that framing without doing any critical thinking whatsoever? Who would've thunk!
I'm really curious about how enforceable a lot of this actually is: Like, let's say a tournament doesn't stream the games, doesn't use Nintendo branding or copyrighted or trademarked material anywhere, doesn't make money off the event at all, and doesn't use hacks or pirated software and purely uses legally purchased copies of the game and consoles using official in game modes: Is there anything for Nintendo to even legally go after even if the event breaks the other guidelines they posted, since there'd be no instances of copyright or trademark infringement or commercially profiting off the event/Nintendo IP? Is the mere act of having a bunch of people play together somehow violating Nintendo IP protections or other commercial rights?
I know there is some precedence with public vs private performance of legally purchased films (rulings I disagree with, but hey, I don't make the rules, sadly!) but i'm not sure how applicable that would be to games when the games have built in modes for multiplayer, some (like Melee!) even explicitly having tournament modes: That's sort of a implicit statement that multiple people playing together is okay?
I also think it bears emphasizing that there are more Nintendo tournaments then just Smash Bros. I play Pokken competitively, for example, and that actually begs the question... would Pokken even be covered by these guidelines, or would they not be since it's technically a The Pokemon Company International published game? It doesn't even show up in Nintendo's quarterly earning reports as a result of that, despite other Nintendo branded titles doing so (I don't understand the exact legal publishing specifics for how that hashes out though, I admit!)
Lastly, I think a major concern with these guidelines is how somebody would run tournaments for games which *don't* have modern online play, or may not be legally available for purchase anymore, where some sort of third party hardware or software is the only way to even access and play the titles.... obviously, doing so would be copyright infringement and violate the DMCA"s DRM anticircumvention provisions (may one day they finally be repealed), and as such it's not like they were ever allowed or Nintendo would ever allow those anyways, but I think people are concerned that with these guidelines there will be a heightened level of oversight (or even if not, that the community will enforce itself; and the people willing to skirt the rules may be pressured by their peers) and such events will be less common.
Actually, lastly-lastly, you said you'd reply to my comment on the Pointcrow video about the absurdity of the Formgen descision and how the Petrella v. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer ruling and other rulings stating laches isn't a factor with copyright intersects with your statements that copyright CAN be lost due to lack of enforcement, but you never got around to giving that more in depth comment... if you're sitll willing to, i'd love to hear your more detailed thoughts!
Having just watched a different video spouting outrage at this new policy, this has allowed me to better understand these and calm down.
Maybe some of these RUclipsrs should do their homework before getting outraged about this stuff
What happens to Melee? Nintendo doesn’t allow people to apply for licenses for Melee tournaments. Can they still run Melee tournaments?
Nintendo has not at all in the past showed a willingness to play nice with licensing. They’ve yet to even show what the new application system will look like. It could take years for popular tournaments to get that license. I think people are very right to be upset by this.
If they really wanted to play hardball with licensing, the expected move is to keep things vague, sandbag license applications, and generally be obstructive -- that is to say, to operate as they have been.
A set of clear guidelines with the promise of a licensing application form to come within a set near term deadline suggests to me the exact opposite: potentially, a willingness to cooperate (keeping in mind, however, that this is still Nintendo we're talking about).
I completely understand why people are upset though: once bitten, twice shy, one might say.
@@moon-channel Are you familiar with the WotC OGL controversy? These new "guidelines" (They are absolutely more of a THREAT to the community) remind me of that controversy.
How likely do you think Nintendo would be to do loosen some restrictions such as prize money, the amount of players, ect. if guidelines are followed? Let us say everyone followed the rules to perfection. Hypothetically speaking of course.
The smash scene has become so mired in controversy already that I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo just honestly doesn't want to take the risk at this point.
lot of vaguing over really scary specifics which is very disappointing to see.
i think a lot of people freaked out because the commercial license part of the guidelines was not very prominent or clear
Something not mentioned directly in this video (as far as I can tell) that affects Smash Bros Tournaments beyond just uncertainty, is the fact that Melee and Project M are still played. Melee immediately disqualifies from the highlighted guidelines if it's played in any sort of online tournament, since that requires the use of 3rd party software (the game doesn''t have online capabilities but to my knowledge there are ways, using Dolphin). Project M disqualifies just for being what it is - not official but a fan romhack, in essence.
At least, as far as I'm understanding it.
>I wrote the script during my lunch break
Bruh, I can't even finish *lunch* during my lunch break. Your capacity to crank out top-notch creative content in addition to your day job astounds me.
OK this is amazing, but I have to ask...
What is that pokemon fan game that is shown with the lopunny?
If only the Smash community leaders are half as clear headed and unbiased as you, if they didn't let their ego get in their way they would have had an official tournament with Nintendo back with Panda.
Those leaders said they ran tournaments because they love the game, not because they want profit, which they think the Panda CEO is doing, now Nintendo literally made it so that they can run non profit tournaments and guess what, they are still complaining. The Smash community really is their own enemy.
Na, Nintendo is the enemy and a bully. They attempt to control everyone that even looks at them wrong and should focus on making games instead of controlling people.
@@eyevou Why would Nintendo make the games and then sit aside and allow the public to sabotage the IP they are based on? Nintendo is interested in staying in business long term they have no choice but to protect their interest. Wouldn't you?
Great video! More ppl should watch this (to avoid protests that would make things even worse)... Though, perhaps if Nintendo had offered some contextualization/explanation for their actions (both past and present), there will be less hostility...
I think a lot of the concern comes from Super Smash Brothers Melee players, far less Ultimate. Of course, there are still agitated TO’s and players from the Ultimate community, but the general consensus among Melee players seems to be that the scene would essentially be vaporized upon tournaments making a license agreement because of the fact that only Nintendo Switch titles can be registered in the license application. While the license application isn’t yet available in NA, it is in Japan, and the agreement is globally congruent throughout. It’s worth noting that Melee has been the very soul of the grassroots scene and the one consistent pillar in terms of gameplay and community. Seeing Melee events come under fire could be catastrophic for the Smash scene as a whole.
More of a cultural question. The Slippy rollback netcode for Melee is considered the best thing to happen for the Smash community ever. Clearly, using it for tournaments is against the guidelines. How do you think the community will react?
I've addressed this in another comment, but will double-up to answer this one just in case.
Slippy rollback netcode and, indeed, any modifications or third party controllers or mods, etc., have always been used in violation of Nintendo's Usage Agreements: they've never, at any point to my knowledge, been allowed.
The Melee community is already using these things in defiance of Nintendo's policies, and these Community Tournament Guidelines merely reiterate, in this case, a policy that already exists.
That I get, and i totallyunderstand the legal argument. I was more asking about how a community that feels as though they brought their favorite game back from the dead is going to feel that they are explicitly excluded from building more.
If you don't have time, I understand. I have always enjoyed your content and appreciate your insight
People are still going to practice on slippi which is by far the best part about slippi. Even if you can’t do tournaments, the fact that people have constant practice with other players is amazing
These guidelines aren’t bad for ultimate but melee might be different story. I’m pretty sure you can’t get a license for melee and all online tournaments break the rules. I still can’t understand why Nintendo hasn’t put melee on the switch though the online subscription as there is no way to play the 20 year old game without paying 100s of dollars to do so. There is a demand to the game that they are ignoring and the pirates are creating a better service because it. If Nintendo cares so much they should be doing better.
13:49 aw hell yeah, of course I wanna see a Moony video about the Zelda and Mario CD-i games!
one thing I've learned from these videos is that most people are afraid (if not, than extremely apprehensive) about legal paperwork in general. I can't say I exactly blame them, but it's just a pattern I've noticed.
It's not about the legal paperwork, but the legal language. While it is theoretically written to be unambiguous, the text are often difficult to follow and most people can not properly parse it. Not unlike computer code, now that I think about it.
@@SystemBDI think we'd all benefit from school at least teaching us how to understand the basics of legalese, but of course that would never happen
Moon Channel just can't stop winning
Need I remind you of the Mr. Wizard incident and it's impact on Evo
If we can't vet our own community shit, no duh the companies will do it for you
What an excellent video you've made. Very glad there is someone like you who could explain such a understanding way with little to no bias to either sides.
I have my mixed thoughts on the guidelines, but overall I think it's somewhat necessary and Nintendo can always make some changes moving on like Capcom did.
I do want to hear more clarifications on some of them, eventually change some as well. Not that it bothers me that much because of Nintendo's past actions and the guidelines does not affect me nowadays since I've on other things due to being frustrated by their choices in the past.
But anyway, huge thanks for making this quick video. I'm looking forward for your next episode.
The difference between Capcom and Nintendo is that the former is making moves to takeover the tournament scene altogether as seen with the offline "World Warriors" Tournament series and Street Fighter League. The long term goal of Capcom is to subsume the Street Fighter Pro tournament scene and become its sole pro tournament organizer.
Smash on the other hand, could have it's family friendly / casual friendly image hurt being widely associated with cash prize professional tournaments. Thus Nintendo would have no desire to make the same moves as Capcom as it would hurt sales and potentially create problems with other IP holders within Smash games as they would probably want a cut of the proceeds of official Nintendo Sponsored Smash tournaments.
@@ShinjiduoI don't know if Capcom being the sole organizor sounds like as a good thing overall, but I get what your point though.
As for smash, I mostly agree but they did support Panda for example which was supporting the tournaments while giving an appeal that Nintendo want. Which implies they can support the competitive scene in some degree despite their horrible track on that.
Still I don't disagree what Nintendo could do, plus that they want to eliminate older games/mods from competition.
@@Shing_ Panda proved however, that you cannot even create a single point of communication in the Smash community as that organization will get power hungry and the rest of the Smash Community will refuse to organize behind them. That community is like "herding cats" which I am sure Nintendo does not care for.
Nintendo is not Bethesda it is not in their business model to release half done games as platforms to be modified. The problem is if you let the good mods get through without resistance then what can you say about the bad ones?
@@Shinjiduo I felt like the Panda thing was just a lot of miscommunication to both sides and too quick emotional reaction to it. It doesn't disprove your point, but I can't seem to personally agree with that statement of yours. Smash community is build like in lot of different sub groups where there are too many different opinions on everything. Point being that there will be people that would organize with them and some would not and labeling as rest as everyone does not sit me right.
I think you misunderstood me on last segment, but that's probably because of my english isn't that good tbh. I were agreeing with you, but added more things that they don't needs deal with mods being a potential threat to their marketing sales so they can quickly eliminate the potential competition.
I can go to your point though and say that Nintendo could decide to approve the ones they want, which would be neat on aspect such as controllers. Otherwise it comes down to the community approves the mod or rejects it, since bad ones won't be popular enough to the approved to the most people.
Btw sorry if I make it hard to be understood. English's not my first language so I find some parts difficult to understand from yours. But appreciates your message a lot since it gets me to think differently.
(Edit): Figured out what "Herding cats" meant and that just described what I just said. In that regard, you're right on that. I would only disagree most would refuse to organize if the communication between both was't too poor to begin with.
@@Shing_ Problems is when doing communication with a large group you really need a single point of contact so negotiations can be easily handled. If you have a negotiation table with one Nintendo representative on one side and 100 Smash representatives on the other there is going to be too many differences on what needs to be done among the Smash community side for effective communication to happen. If Smash community does not organize under one voice how can there be good communication with Nintendo?
This is a all or nothing situation, the entirety of the professional Smash community must cooperate with any agreed upon negotiations with Nintendo. If you have renegade groups running around doing what they want you are just going to have the Panda Global situation all over again. The entire Smash community loses in that situation. The Smash community needs to understand they are no benefit to Nintendo because Smash will sell and be profitable with or without them. It behooves the Smash community to organize, unify and come to Nintendo realizing in the end Nintendo is doing them a favor by even coming to the negotiation table. If the Smash community can get back to the negotiation table again with Nintendo.
As for mods, when I say "bad ones" I am referring to adult content like the recent mod in Super Mario Wonder where the talking flower were modded to curse / swear. Nintendo can shut mods like that easily because they are consistent across the board with their policy on mods. If they let mods like Slippi through without resistance despite it being in violation of the EULA agreement we entered by playing the game; when it came time to shut down this recent cursing mod its creators could claim they were unfairly singled out and even make an appeal to artistic freedom. Nintendo would invalidate it's own EULA agreement if it picked and chose what unauthorized mods were allowed to be used on their games.
Thinking I may have overreacted slightly (partly because of fear mongering, partly distrust as a former Project M player) and my only concern is that these guidelines still appear to kill off online melee tournaments because of the need for slippi?
find it odd that people fear of slipppi going away when melee players still was playing melee just fine back in 2009
@@Yoshizuyuner That fear is justified because, shocker, there WASN'T A WAY TO PLAY MELEE ONLINE BACK IN 2009. Do you not realize just how big of a portion of melee tournaments are online nowadays!?
I really do hope we all feel very stupid for panicking, but most of it is warranted for the PTSD Nintendo gave the community already. Biggest difference between Nintendo and every other company's guidelines isn't even how strict they are, but how hard Nintendo has been to work with historically. They take months to answer emails, give vague answers and are completely unpredictable. Lots of TOs worked with Nintendo and most of the time the whole thing got shutdown anyway. Every time Nintendo shows up to the community, even when they announce good intentions, everyone is skeptical because historically their good intentions ended up hurting the community. So yeah, excuse my skepticism and panic for the moment, even if the license terms and process of getting one are reasonable, me and a lot of us will remain skeptical as there is no telling what random thing they will pull to level everything to the ground like they've done for decades.
4:21 and don’t enable even more child predation
Can I make a suggestion for a future topic? You talked about Sega losing parts of Sonic's intellectual property in the past due to not guarding it from ex-artists. Which is probably why Sega wouldn't integrate the characters and storylines featured in the IDW Sonic comics into the main games, despite the new guidelines in place and Ian Flynn working directly in Sonic Frontiers.
However, I want to understand why the mobile games Sonic Dash and Forces Speed Battle have original characters from the IDW comics. Is this a test? If someone from IDW claim authorship over those characters could these games be taken down?
I think they’re looking to merge those two worlds, considering Flynn’s involvement in Frontiers and the little easter egg referencing Tangle.
@@okayemjay The Tangle easter egg is not on the japanese script. I think Ian just sneaked that in without Sega noticing.
Sega's supervision of the Sonic ip seems to be a lot more heavy than before, so if Ian Flynn wanted to claim those characters are his i believe he would have to take a lot more hoops than last time.
I think the part that my illness-impaired brain can handle retaining amounts to "IP Law does not really give Nintendo better options" or some such. Which begs the question: is ANYBODY making efforts to devise a better option? Also, thank you for being a fire extinguisher in these volatile times.
Simply phenominal. Even when you rush video production it comes out concise and helpful. Thank you so much for explaining the situation Moony!
Nice video as always Moon! I was just wondering about the point that stated “Tournaments involving the sale of food, beverages, or merchandise” cannot happen.
As my 20 person local, organized by a smal organization of TOs, in a free to use culture center run by the state every week. This center has a little cafe in the door next doors. Does this mean that even if we send a request for a license it will be denied as we cannot be affiliated with a place that sells foods/drinks?
I think that point is referring to tournaments selling their own food. I've participated in conventions hosting their own tournaments where the convention center itself has catering. The tournament is not affiliated with the convention catering, but the moment tournament staff begin to sell is when that rule applies. The wording in the document is a little vague in that regard, but I think it would be silly that events can't be hosted in venues that serve their own food separate from the tournament organizers. ( that being said, Nintendo is not foreign to doing silly things for the sake of their brand... )
Is it just me or could this have the consequence of splitting the local Smash Ultimate/Melee scenes, since Nintendo isn't offering licenses for Melee tournaments?
Sure, this might be good for Smash Ultimate players and local community leaders, but the other 30% of the competitive Smash Bros community seems to be getting shafted as a result.
I do think the melee/brawl type of people will definitely get shafted and would have to resort to something illegal, or as the rich does it, find a loophole in the rules that bypass's nintendo's community guidelines and restrictions....They'll probably find one out but considering I don't bother with competitive gaming scenes at all, it's not a big deal for me nor do I care about it.
Lower level of quality? This is still better than most
But you’re completely missing the point. This burden of honoring these guidelines is oppressive and will make it basically impossible to turn the smash scene into what the top players have been fighting for it to become.
Woah. Not what I was expecting after reading all the headlines and twitterx reactions. This makes things look much more hopeful. I hope the smash bros community sees this!
What was left out of this video is that you cannot get a license for games that aren't on the switch. The 2 biggest being Smash Melee and Mario Kart Wii. Competitive Mario Kart and Lounge is not super popular and mainstream so I don't think it's in too much danger but Melee is still a big game. That's like 30% of the entire competitive smash community just without being able to organize events for the game they love
@@lunchtreyy Which makes sense in retrospect - Ultimate's the latest game, it's going to be the one Nintendo prioritizes because it's the one they're currently selling.
Same thing applies to Capcom. Capcom's not going to give Street Fighter 3 Third Strike priority over Street Fighter 6 because SF6 is the latest game... They're not going to prioritize Street Fighter 5 even.
@@lunchtreyy I've seen people saying that Panda, who are licensed already, were able to use Melee - and GameCube is next on the list for the Nintendo Online service so could come either with the next console or shortly after, making an official online mode for it as well.
The situation is definitely not as bad for Smash Ultimate as it first seemed, but online Melee is still 100% dead, though. Hopefully they don't prevent it from being featured for in-person tournaments as well.
I'm not even a Melee player myself, but I do find it kinda inspiring how passionate its community has been for so many years.
Also, I know you literally used him for your thumbnail twice, but Hungrybox actually chilled out now that he's been able to see how the licensing process will work. I think he got a bit scared of being specifically targetted since he's hosting one of the biggest regular online tournaments as of now and he's well-known for his emotional outbursts. 😂
So I guess that is fine. But my conspiracy theory still stands, that Nintendo wants people to stop playing their old games so everyone will buy their new games, and a way of doing that is "banning" all competitive scenes. So if some large tournament gets approved by Nintendo (like last year), they can still shut it down right before it starts (like last year)
Something you didn't address i'm curious about: how enforceable are some of these rules, even? Obviously Nintendo can crack down on people using pirated copies, mods, using Nintendo branding in ads, and maybe making money off the event, but assuming none of that is going on, is there any actual legal precedence establishing that they can dictate how many people can play together at once or offering food and drink at a venue where people are also playing the game? I'm sure the license for the game says it's only for you to play personally, but does is preventing people from getting together to play it collectively (especially when the games have multiplayer, or even built in tournament functions) really legally enforcable?
So, does Nintendo have the legal grounds to enforce such a policy on tournaments?
That's literally what I was expecting to hear in the video. Quite disappointed.
I've never respected the competitive Smash scene since one player threw a fit during a championship match and they gave him a redo instead of a ban.
He "won" but not really, let's be honest.
The amount of Jabs you gave to Hbox at the end was probably more than every Smash match he’s played this year, lol
I appreciate this review and your insight is always valuable. I am, however, left with a question and a comment.
Question: To a layperson like myself, these guidelines seem to fully shut down regular local tournament scenes that are not big events. Am I wrong? While it may long-term benefit the big scene of top players, I fear that we will see less newcomers to that scene if the smaller local scenes are forced to operate outside of these guidelines. Again, I'm just a reactionary dumb-dumb so I would love some input.
Comment: I almost missed this video due to the thumbnail. I know the video was rushed out and that Nintendo doesn't like IP being used in thumbnails, but just thought I'd leave that here.
Thanks for the top notch commentary!!
I don't personally think Nintendo can pay attention to every locals, so you could get away with it. Not they would like to care or else they could try to remove every romhacks/fangames that exists online. Besides that they could probably makes change in the future.