You hit the nail on the head. Lots of the builders over here in US/UK/EU have already identified and confirmed your thoughts on the double row chain being the issue causing the #1 failure. Your idea of a custom set for main bearing replacement is great, hopefully some of the suppliers can start supplying custom sets with a larger #1. Mahle Motorsport in the UK for example.
H2 Motors in Germany has seen this same type of failures and they also have the theory that the chains are pulling up on the crank shaft hence the increased wear on the upper shell
No they said the serpentine belt is the reasen why the late s65 engins (09 and later) have this problem. The early versions had an different serpentine belt. All versions have the same chain and main bearings.
@@boostedrede30 this is not my theory, you said that H2M have the same theory and that is false my frend they said it that they think it is the serpentine belt what lifts the crankshaft. They recognize that the late engines are more vulnerable for this issuse
@@stevenpower3780 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's after 15/05/2008 that BMW decided to change the layout of the serpentine belt. Before 05.08 BMW had the belt OVER the power steering pulley then UNDER the idler, after 05.08 the belt was rerouted UNDER power steering then OVER for some reason. BMW had a lot of these minor adjustments after the 2008, I think the manual transmission as well. The clutch and flywheel after 2008 are not compatible before 2008.
So nice to see block repaired instead of buying a new one. If the problem is with extra tension on chains, maybe tensioners could be modified to reduce tension and force applied?
Thank you for sharing the knowledge! BMW is still one of very few manufacturers that designs a bespoke racing engines for their sport version sedans, The fact that they last as long as they do is already impressive.
@@2nickles647 yes, they are engines that are designed for just one specific model and are made with all the features of Motorsport powertrains (at least used to before turbochargers).
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO. Way too many times do I see people thinking they are fine just doing rod bearing replacement on their S65 thinking they are fine. NOPE! If you want true piece of mind you need a FULL ENGINE TEARDOWN down to the crankshaft. Btw, Interesting repair for this issue.
Thanks for contributing you time and knowledge on the subject, please keep the community updated on possible solutions, it seems like such a shame for one of the most exciting M engines to be such a risky ownership proposition, I hope the collective knowledge of folks like yourself can solve this so we can enjoy these vehicles for years to come, it does seem unusual that some examples make it more 300,000kms while some die at 50,000 I would so like to know why?
There's one thing i tell all my customers: if you want a BMW just get an inline six one. N/A or turbocharged whatever but stay away from all the V-type engines they produced especially if you want to go fast on track. Always kept me out of trouble like the ones you adress here. Greetings from near the lovely Nordschleife very nice of you to adress this topic.
it's proven that the turbo inline 6's are less reliable than the s65. this is an issue yes, but S65 have lasted 250k+ miles that's over 300k kms if maintained correctly
Throttle actuators, rod bears, main bearings, vanos, the oil spec 10W60, seems quite a lot for a road going engine to manage. The S54, S65, & S85 were the last of the NA M engines. Mindset needs to be, service like a race engine...
10w60 paired with cooler temperatures and impatient owners was always gonna be a recipe for disaster. For the type of driving and temperatures that most people drive this cars at, 5w40 is the thickest they should go.
@@Legend57. I'm not sure this is true. Many of the early S85/S65 failures were noticed in warm So Cal. If the 10W were the problem, we would see a climate skew to failure distribution and I just don't think there's any evidence to point to that. It's quite possible that 5W-40 makes the problem worse, not better. A 10W is still ok below freezing. If it can be pumped it will circulate. If it was too think we would see high oil pressure and bypass action.
Very good video thank you, like you said not much info on this on the web. I am a lucky winner of a main bearing failure also. BMW should be responsible for this, the B7 RS4 is also a high revving motor but does not have this issue, very upset with BMW about this
Scary problem. When mine failed, the #1 main didn't even spin, but it was melted and wiped out. #1 rod spun consequently, but only just. No discoloration on the crank and the rod journal was still in spec, and I reckon the main journal could also be saved. Bad part is the block was cracked almost all the way up to the bores, so it can't be saved. Scariest thing is the engine ran perfectly beforehand, not even a knock until pulling it into the shed. Just found some metal in the oil. Great idea on that fix, excited to see how it does in the field!
@@01.k.p I changed the oil about 50 miles from home in a shop, and saw sparkly oil on the pan, but assumed it was from another car that had drained. Didn't think much of it. Filter was on backorder at the time and I got it a few days later, which is when I checked the filter and saw quite a bit of copper. That's when I pulled it into the shed, still running perfectly. Worst part is the crack goes almost all the way up to the bores, no saving this block. Had to get a used engine and had it remanned by Carbahn as it had a cracked piston and bore was scored. Pics on the "Another S65 main bearing failure" thread on m3post.
@@MrElectrify funny enough I’ve probably read it. Not funny situation though.But I’ll reread thanks for the info. It is very crazy the engine was running alright. Makes you wonder how long it would continue since the block was already trashed. I’m glad you got it back up and running. These engines are something. Enjoy in good health
@@01.k.p Still waiting on the Carbahn engine, things are still in flight lol. Hoping to have the car running at the end of the month. I really wish I knew it was already trash, I absolutely would've run it until something truly catastrophic happened, we've never seen an S65 split in half and I'm curious how long it would take. I'm sure it would've seized before long
These S65 should not be filled with 10W-60 group 4 POA. Cold start performance and shear resistance is poor with an engine of these tight of tolerances and rpm limit. 5W-50 Group 5 ester based oils with low mile change intervals essentially solve this issue along with the addition of tungsten disulfide.
Hard to believe that the timing chain tension is enough to distort the crankshaft upwards into the bearing, but as soon as wear becomes excessive the rotational cycles of the crankshaft will accelerate the frictional wear causing excessive heat and finally failure of the bearings. The timing chains must have an exceptionally high tensile strength to weight ratio, to bend the crank rather than stretch the chains. Thanks for the technical explanation and well done for engineering a solution.
It got me thinking: wouldnt engines with massive flywheels feel the same thing on the last bearing? Altough when it rotates it should be good, but initially it could introduce a bit of a trouble to that last bearing, at least i would think so. Lets say that flywheel weighs 26 kg + clutch and pressure plate, thats like a cement bag hanging on the end of the crank. I think adding bigger harmonic balancer on the front end could reduce that radial force on the first crankpin, altough it would mess with harmonics
Awesome video, great to see well engineered solutions for this S65 issue. Will you guys make a similar video for the S63? The number of cars with that engine I've seen latley with bearing failures (rods and mains) is quite scary. It would be good to better understand the anatomy of them and what's causing their issues.
Yep, still love my 2013 E92 - 335IS.. :Lemans blue, DCT, one of 269 (and now brembos, Konis, an LSD, Delrin Arms and Rods and //M parts up front) - and no S motor heartache. Just N54 leaks.. and only 80K miles.
The main bearing failure of the S65 engine might be caused by the extra gaped rod bearing. Although the extra gaped rod bearing has more clearance to save itself, the extra gap can also cause pressure loss inside the crankshaft oil channel that feeds oil to the rod bearing. This pressure loss can cause a lower flow rate and reduced pressure in the main bearing. Some S65 engines might survive this failure because the tolerance adds up between parts, and the main/rod bearing gaps aren't too big or too small. Two cars had main bearing issues in my local shop just after changing the rod bearing (3000-4000km), and now they both need a new engine.
I saw this when M359 restorations was rebuilding his S65 engine and thought to myself "Oh oh, this is gonna be a HUGE problem!" The biggest problem with this is that this is a whole engine rebuild and with the trouble M359 had to go through before he found a reputable shop, there are about to be a whole lot off blown up e92 m3 engines...
@@wojtech270the only help he had was with the alusil bore re-finish process. Yes M539 is a very good technician and a true enthusiast which equates to doing very good work. We watch him and think he is doing very well with his work.
Seems BMW suddenly forgot that chains in motion have high angular momentum (which increases with velocity squared). When it has to make a turn, it doesn't want to. Which leads to a snareing effect, tugging between the head(s) and the crank. Duplex chains are heavier than simplex, making it even worse. Choosing a duplex chain for a 8000rpm engine for inspirated driving is an engineering blunder on an embarrasing level, it's almost like it was designed to be stuck in traffic at low rpms. Angular momentum issues in addition to the lack of damping, is why I preffer belts over chains, the added benefit of belts being lighter in general is lower weigh in addition to less inertia, besides the lesser tug. Chains are also a wear item (but people don't seem to know, and is generally much more of a paint to replace) If one wants a valvetrain that reduces the load on the crank as much as possible in addition to inertia and drive losses, and lasts nearly forever, then spray lubricated spur gears pluss a really good harmonic dampener is the way to go...
E90 M3 owner here. How much more time/labor would the #1 main bearing fix add during a Rod bearing replacement job on the S65? Would higher clearance bearings be offered for supercharged setups than the increased clearances you’re using as a fix for NA? I too have been tracking this issue for a while and believe you are on the right track. H2 motors in Germany had very similar observations regarding the possible cause of S65 main bearing failures.
@@2nickles647 lol literally did not ask about how much more it would cost. I’m asking what other steps are required if you’re already replacing the rod bearings. I.e. If the crankshaft has to come out then do we need to retime the engine? You just sound like you listen to your service advisor at the dealership when he says your windshield washer fluid costs $500
@@jys8569 I'm not a mechanic so take all this with a grain of salt, but I did have an E90 M3 and looked into replacing the rod bearings myself when I bought it. I ended up bringing it to a shop because I didn't have the facilities, tools, or experience at the time. But I became familiar with the procedure. Doing the main bearing in addition to the rod bearings adds a large amout of extra labor to the job. The rod bearings can be replaced with the engine in the car and without removing the crankshaft or any of the timing assembly. In my opinion it would be crazy to ONLY replace the #1 main bearing if you're going to do all that work, I would replace all 5 at that point. This engine uses a "bedplate" style main bearing cap, which means all of the main bearings have to be installed/removed at the same time, it also means you have to pull the crankshaft completely to replace any of the upper bearings. Pulling the crankshaft means that you would have to retime the engine, unless you could mark/index EXACTLY where the timing chain was on the crankshaft when it was removed. I am pretty sure replacing the main bearings becomes an engine-out job by that point, where replacing the rod bearings is commonly done with the engine still in the car. There are lots of youtube videos of guys rebuilding these engines, I would recommend watching one of those videos to get an idea of what goes into installing the mains. Once again I'm not a mechanic so I hope that someone else can chime in and make any corrections for stuff I got wrong. Maybe the mains can be replaced with the engine in the car but I double most mechanics would want to do it that way.
@legend57 @vertvlogs675 I’ve been watching Sreten for a while but I don’t recall if he said a main bearings replacement require the engine to come out. Certainly makes sense if you need to but to be fair, his motor needed to come out regardless since he wanted to recondition the entire short block. @vertvlog676 big thanks for the write up. Certainly helped me bridge knowledge gaps.
Reasons why BMW chose a chain over a belt on these engines, the M10, and M30 have more oil clearance, not sure about M88-M90 oil clearances but stands to reason they have more than these S65 engines . Early M10 and M30 engines are double row chains, they later when with single row chains. It’s quite amazing that the tension on them causes crank to bend at high rpm. There an old hot rodders trick that was used on the SOCH V8 Ford engines, apparently the timing chains would stretch enough at high rpm that one bank on the engine would cause the cam timing to change, Ed Pink described the trick in detail about how he discovered the issue and corrected it for high rpm use in nitro methane drag cars. Two totally different things but somewhat related.
You're welcome mate. We share what we can to build a community of engine enthusiasts to discuss and help come up with solutions where possible. Hope the video helped and glad it was informative for you. Cheers
So basically S65 engines need a weird amount of preventative works done to ensure reliability…. How much would it cost to bring my car around to get all these works done? So far I’ve gathered: rod bearings, main bearing, throttle actuators, usual VANOS issues, engine mounts…. (And I’m sure host of other things such as Idle control valve or valve cover gaskets etc) Assuming drive-in and drive-out, how much would all these preventative/reinforcement work cost???
Increasing the oil flow to the front main bearing in particular seems to be a no brainer given the factors mentioned. Did BMW consider those factors I wonder. Another design point may be the capacity of the oil pump and how quickly it gets pressure to that front main on startup.
Excellent video and repair/improvement. Is there any obvious relationship to this type of damage and extreme usage? Can it be avoided or reduced with shorter oil service intervals and careful warm up?
Surely, increasing the bearing clearance in No. 1 main bearing means the crank can bend more? Will the crank fail more prematurely due to cyclical bending stresses? And opening up the oil port; if you increase the flow to No. 1, then there is less for No’s 2-5? Might not make a difference, but it’s a ballsy move if you’re not certain that you need the extra oil on No. 1.
NICE! I have also witnessed S85's with main bearing wear. Usually number 6 and would put to unbalanced clutch assy. Number 1 could be same issue with extra load from cam-timing going wrong and unbalanced. No way to know for sure, but love when I find new info. P
@@BrintechCustomswhat do you think about with my m6 manual swap and one mass flywheel? I wqnt to change it to m3 original flywheel. But it would be still unbalanced to the counter weight on the opposite side: the Vibration damper. Does the original m6 manual maybe has a different damper
@@mowa4820 So long as the rotating hardware is balanced this will help. However the other end certainly needs to be effective in doing the dampening required. Ideally a rotating assembly balance is the correct way to address end to end.
Yes have seen them. Good thing. We use our own local Aussie brand ACL bearings which also offer a coating as well. We could have our ACL bearings wpc treated I guess
In the last sentences, it sounds super att. Like the S85 or the S62, the S65 is constructively closer to a racing engine, because it needs more care and care to a "bread and butter series engine" and consequently. You can blame BMW for leaving the customer unclear about it. But, I think most customers would still not have liked it when buying a new one. But I stick to my opinion that these engines are anything but faulty designs!
Great informative video. Unrelated to the S65 engine, have you guys seen any issues with the B58 or S58 engines? They’re relatively new compared to the S65 and different architecture, but wondering if there are any design flaws we’ll see issue creep up later in their lifecycle. Thx!
Is it possible to increase the oil pressure through its range from idle to help the #1 main bearing supply. this could possibility be done with a reduced clearance inside of the oil pump.
Greetings from Sweden, I appreciate all Your in - dept techvideos. Isn't it a slight bit of oilpressure related as well? If we could increase it slightly, without spinning the bearings due to oilpressure, that would also help prevent this failure?
G'day to Sweden. Yes more oil pressure could also help. Another thing we have done is super-polish the crank with an Isotropic process and tumble which turns the running surfaces into mirrors
Why dont you measure home much tension is applied from the chains and calculate additional radial load from chain at speed. That main bearing does not have a lot of surface area. Opening up the clearance will make wear worse for the lower side. Is the front bearing wear from high rpm, or low rpm with cold oil running additional heavy loads through ac and alternator. That chain oil squirter is most likely reducing flow to the bearing also.
Is there any indicator what Mileage these start to fail? I just purchased a clean e92 M3 from Sydney with 115k kms on the clock now. RB done earlier this year
What is your opinion on running a thinner oil in the S65 like a 5W40? I suspect its better because the tight clearance but would it maybe also have a effect on the chain tensioners?
It is a good idea. Just keep in mind this engine sheers the oil quite fast because of the chain system. It is wise to do 5,000km or less service intervals to keep good functional oils in your engine. As the oil sheers and breaks down in molecular structure, the oil significantly reduces in effectiveness and could be attributed to this topic.
I'd like to know the mileage as well as usage leading up to this. I currently have 270,XXX miles and I've done my RB's twice along the way. No more than 6-8 track days and mostly DD duty. I'd like to know oil change intervals too. I"ve gone with 5k oil intervals since 25k miles as well as at least a 2-5 minute warm up daily. Socal car, 2011 M3 Coupe. Great video and information guys!
The lowest mileage engine we have had this happen to is 56,000kms (34,000 miles) which happened on a track day after 3 laps. This is the 2nd crank shown in this video with the black burnt journal. KMs / Miles dont seem to be a single factor to go by alone, all we know is the last 5 engines that have come to our shop for repair have been locked and all suffered #1 main bearing failure.
We should neutralize that excessive upward force by adding another force downwards. Something in the crank pulley, I don't know, just thinking loud. Zero engine inside work.
"Tight clearance engine" isn't a thing. Right clearance engine is. There's engines that are higher strung than this that last longer. Examples are easy to find in all types of road going and motorsport vehicles. It's a design issue. Nice car, nice engine when it runs, great engine after you guys re-work it. Thought the fact that it even requires re-work tells you that it has a design flaw.
I agree however. There are suggestions the engine was initially manufactured with lower than engineering textbook clearances to reduce noise emissions, with oe supplied bearings gaining clearance with subsequent production runs as the problem became more noticeable.... now I know, that sounds like a tall tale if ever there was one but it originated in circles not prone to indulging in repeating rubbish. And legislation often produces unintended and unforeseen consequences.
What evidence is there that oil pressure is the problem? You can’t just pump the bearing clearance up with more oil flow, the oil pressure pales in comparison to the hydrodynamic lift pressure of the oil film in operation. If this was a flow volume problem it would be most apparent in engines with a lot of low speed operation
@@yucannthahvitt251 On VW BXE engines, big end bearing overheats and lead to crankshaft failure due to lack of oil. Adding a lower bearing on main same as upper one increases oil flow to big end and cools the bearing more.
The higher redline these S65 are able to achieve likely means you have stiff valve springs and requires more force to turn hence the need for a double row chain, heavy duty tensioner, sprockets, etc. I assume during testing, there wasn't any issues found with this setup. But after hundreds of cycles of running the engine on and off, the oil isn't able to prevent contact. Could be a very brief period of lack of lubrication such as replacement of an oil cooler. I'm surprised to learn you're running an extra thousand in clearance. I would have gone for half a thousand only.
Curious how many miles/kilometers those engines had on them and side note if they tracked the cars had super chargers or let them warm up proper before flogging
Regarding the S85, what weight oil do you recommend before a rod bearing swap and after? stick with BMW specs or use a thinner oil? my S85 is currently around 80000 klm original bearings.everything all other common issues have been done.
If the engine is original and still running its tight clearances, then a 5w30 or 10w40 is not a bad idea, it also depends on your climate and time of year. Post bearings - 10w40 to 10w60 is good, again depending how hot/cold your climate is during use. We strongly recommend Penrite 10 Tenths race oil.
@@BrintechCustoms ok cool thanks. I'm in Sydney are you based in Melbourne? roughly whats the cost too do the rod bearings on the S85? yeah i only use Penrite in my cars, the Penrite gear oil fixed a clutch binding issue on the M5, BMW changed the gear oil specs too suit newer M5's but I had nothing but issues with it. Penrite all the way. 👍👍
But how much would it cost to do main bearings? I heard it was so expensive that at this point it doesn’t merit getting them done considering how much you can get a replacement engine for unfortunately
Right that definitely makes sense. Here in the states you can find an ok used engine for roughly 7-8k aud plus labor for the swap… It’s actually still pretty expensive and I’ve talked my way into just doing the service being a better idea lol
Great stuff, but kinda important OIC and oil brand and weight…bet these motors were beat on from cold and ran 10w60 for 10,000 like bmw recommended !!!
Hi Brintech Team, Would love to converse over these failures one S series engine lover to another, could I ask what mileage these failures are happening on average that you’ve seen? Is this something on average you see with 100km plus engines etc, I’ve also wondered if majority of wear happens on crank and initial fire up prior to oil pressure centralising the crank,, maybe acusump might help. Enjoying the videos many thanks
Given the double row pair of timing chains could be a contributing factor to the tension on the nose of the crank, adding oil pressure would also add pressure to the chain tensioners, this could work against the engine.
@@BrintechCustoms I think you’ve misunderstood, I’m talking about priming the oil system with the accusump prior to engine start in this case it would have 30-60 psi upon crank I’m wondering if some of this wear is from cold start mechanical advantage on the snout of the crank via chain tensioners prior to oil pressure being established, just a thought I haven’t checked if they are the same tensioner part number as the S85 either ,,, in my mind it’s establishing is this actually occurring in high speed operation or start up , you would think it would fail faster if it were to occur on governing pressure engine speed, it would be eating the upper 1st main as much big ends ,, I’m not saying your wrong at all just a thought, I’ve checked the mains with spares I have and they show similar wear patterns without doubt, definitely a step in the right direction, as an M engine fan it’s disappointing nobody loves them more than me but I’ve stripped Audi Rs4 engines with 200k and you could re use the bearings with less favourable on paper design …. Rod ratio etc etc … appreciate the videos and lengths you’ve gone to, and I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with peanuts insulting your business on a public forum with absolutely no grounds as it’s very clear from your videos your not beginners. Cheers thanks for the vids
@@simonmuirhead5930 Yes i understand now thank you. Yes there is a common things with an S65 on cold start especially if they have sat for days or weeks, a horrible rattle while oil pressure builds up and fill the VANOS hubs etc. I can see the advantage an a pre-start pressurising of the oil circuit. The S65 tensioner part numbers are 11317839053, and unique to the 65 only. The S85 are different, and single row chains as we know. Thanks for the encouragement, we try our best. Some people just dont have the capacity to have a constructive discussion when it comes to problems. We know that our efforts are recognised and acknowledged in the wider community of those who are here to learn with us. Thank you
BMW m crankshafts normally have almost an extra 0.001” of clearance in the main no.1 Journal anyways, however I always make sure no1 is the loosest when sorting bearings into size order. 👍
Just checked a e36 m3 S50B30 Euro crankshaft (brand new) and no.1 = 59.956mm and no.2 to no.6 are 59.980mm. 59.980-59.956=0.024mm, 0.0254mm is a 0.001”. Just incase I’m called out on this 👍😅
all engines should be measured at operating temperature also, boring and honing should be done with bed plate or girdle installed get your pistons true size using a lathe and blowtorch! heat up the piston to temperature and cut to size torque wrench procedure is also a huge factor. much like a conrod strain gauge- make a jig to measure stretch with head studs and mains after torque..while this isn't able to get you exactly accurate it can definitely measure if one thread has stretched more than the other.
I know sfa about bmw engines. But just watching this is the snout is so long and looks to be completely unsupported. I bet it its whiping causing your bearing failure. The weight of that balancer and pulley . The tension because of a daul chain opposed to single row is of little consequence. 8200 rpm as your stated unsupported is your answer not the chain.
Its a fine balance of maintenance and handling after they leave the factory. Its a 4.0L engine producing 400bhp compared to 6.0L Chev V8 making the same. The rods are narrow and internals under much higher loads. What could have been done better to prevent this by BMW? That is a good question and open to suggestion.
@@FairladyS130 maybe, but the Japanese have never made a V8 that comes close to the performance of an S65… the 2UR in the old ISF is the closest and it’s a larger, heavier, lower revving engine that still makes less power so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.
@@yucannthahvitt251 Obviously if the V8 BMW engine produces significantly more power per liter than other V8 engines it would require different engineering to those other engines to get similar life. Sports motorcycle engines engineering with their notably oversquare engines would be a good start. But perhaps BMW have also tried to make the engine too compact which would restrict bore size and reduce crankshaft length and hence bearing widths. Anyway BMW have stuffed up somewhere in the design.
Dont let is worry you too much - just try to plan a routine bearing maintenance process for is and this can be overcome with confidence. The engine deserves it as we also agree they are an amazing machine and generally one of the best Euro V8s built.
@@BrintechCustoms Hi, at what mileage would this main bearing becomes an issue? Are there any correlation with mileage? Some comments are suggesting that the production date after 05.08, when BMW switched up the accessory belt is the cause, I personally don't think it's possible.
is there any possible way to redesign the tensioning system to lessen the upwards pull? ive never seen the front of one of these engines disassembled so parden me if its a dumb question.
How many engine would be ok if just people change there oil in high rpm sports cars … like 3000 miles then change oil.. this nonsense with 15000-20000 miles interval longlife bla bla . Its just for the car maker to sell cars with a TCO of service that will look ok. But in high rpm v8 oil need to be change more often then people does
It's hard to imagine the cam chains having more upwards/pulling force compared to crank weight and 8 pistons pushing downwards lol,,.I think most v8s could do with a bit wider bearings/surface area.Even a Holden 308 will show some rod/main bearing wear at around 150k/km,with normal and some spirited driving,where as most 4 cylinder engines will have as nearly new bearings,but worn bores.If I had to build an S 65 engine for myself,I'd probably hog out the oil holes,put slightly oversize bearings ,and use a 20w 50 oil,,assuming they're designed for 0W 20/30
You hit the nail on the head! With 8 pistons driving the crank hard Into the block bedplate, and 4 rows of chain and a serpentine belt system out beyond #1 main, the crank snout is bent up and makes contact with the upper shell. Something is trying to bed the crank
the amount of issues i've had with my e46 m3 and having to unfuck the things brintech have done to my car. if they can't do basic maintenance and routine mods, imagine how bad getting your engine rebuild by them would be
Jake - I do not have any record of you as a customer. This is the first we have heard anything from you about any E46 M3 problems. Perhaps contact us and identify yourself so we can discuss in detail what you are talking about.
@@BrintechCustoms customer was the previous owner. I thought wrongly having brintech on all the receipts was worth something. long story short, csl airbox, rear dif, cooling and some odds and ends. The amount of time and money put in to attempt to fix the issues. redo improperly done work. definitely the joys of buying a old bmw. thank god nothing to do with the engine internally was touched by you.
@@F41LZZz Jake how about contacting us privately with the information of the customer and car. I'd like to know more and see who the tech was at the time. We have had ex staff issues and quality control is important to us.
@@BrintechCustoms the car is now out of state. I certainly bought it with rose coloured sunglasses on. due diligence is primarily at fault on my end. these things are such a hassle to try and fix, and throwing money at it hasn't worked.
@@F41LZZz if you email us and give some specifics of What you are battling with, whether you feel we are capable of helping or not, I'm sure I can shed some light and be of some assistance. We always address any issue given the chance, at this stage I'm still in the dark about what you are talking about. Get in touch Jake and let's work this out
these examples have to have tracked or steady redline with crap oil…..mildly driven opened up often but no sustained full on driving this cant be the same result
Shocking and unnecessary if designed properly. You've done an amazing job re-engineering it.
@@ametti000 it seems to be a good solution at this point.
You hit the nail on the head. Lots of the builders over here in US/UK/EU have already identified and confirmed your thoughts on the double row chain being the issue causing the #1 failure. Your idea of a custom set for main bearing replacement is great, hopefully some of the suppliers can start supplying custom sets with a larger #1. Mahle Motorsport in the UK for example.
H2 Motors in Germany has seen this same type of failures and they also have the theory that the chains are pulling up on the crank shaft hence the increased wear on the upper shell
No they said the serpentine belt is the reasen why the late s65 engins (09 and later) have this problem. The early versions had an different serpentine belt. All versions have the same chain and main bearings.
@@stevenpower3780 early motors have this issue as well so that doesn't make sense. I doubt serpintine belt would cause main bearings to wear lol
@@boostedrede30 this is not my theory, you said that H2M have the same theory and that is false my frend they said it that they think it is the serpentine belt what lifts the crankshaft. They recognize that the late engines are more vulnerable for this issuse
@@stevenpower3780 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's after 15/05/2008 that BMW decided to change the layout of the serpentine belt. Before 05.08 BMW had the belt OVER the power steering pulley then UNDER the idler, after 05.08 the belt was rerouted UNDER power steering then OVER for some reason. BMW had a lot of these minor adjustments after the 2008, I think the manual transmission as well. The clutch and flywheel after 2008 are not compatible before 2008.
@@SuperPandaren yeah that’s right FCP Euro had also a video about the S65 that shows the different in the belt layout.
So nice to see block repaired instead of buying a new one.
If the problem is with extra tension on chains, maybe tensioners could be modified to reduce tension and force applied?
Thank you for sharing the knowledge! BMW is still one of very few manufacturers that designs a bespoke racing engines for their sport version sedans, The fact that they last as long as they do is already impressive.
Totally agree with this
Bespoke?
@@2nickles647 yes, they are engines that are designed for just one specific model and are made with all the features of Motorsport powertrains (at least used to before turbochargers).
What a great video! I am now happy that I replaced my mains at 211.000km. Now at 232.000 and still going strong (80% racetrack km)
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO. Way too many times do I see people thinking they are fine just doing rod bearing replacement on their S65 thinking they are fine. NOPE! If you want true piece of mind you need a FULL ENGINE TEARDOWN down to the crankshaft. Btw, Interesting repair for this issue.
Thanks for contributing you time and knowledge on the subject, please keep the community updated on possible solutions, it seems like such a shame for one of the most exciting M engines to be such a risky ownership proposition, I hope the collective knowledge of folks like yourself can solve this so we can enjoy these vehicles for years to come, it does seem unusual that some examples make it more 300,000kms while some die at 50,000 I would so like to know why?
Owners that's the difference....not all pitbulls are dangerous but in the hands of a certain type of prick we'll its inevitable..
There's one thing i tell all my customers: if you want a BMW just get an inline six one. N/A or turbocharged whatever but stay away from all the V-type engines they produced especially if you want to go fast on track. Always kept me out of trouble like the ones you adress here.
Greetings from near the lovely Nordschleife very nice of you to adress this topic.
S54 inline 6 for example also has same rod bearing issue as s65 v8 and s85 v10
@@288gto7 exactly and thats why i trust japan in developing engines :D
it's proven that the turbo inline 6's are less reliable than the s65. this is an issue yes, but S65 have lasted 250k+ miles that's over 300k kms if maintained correctly
@@rengokusatslol ihave one with 400k
s85*
Excellent analysis!
Throttle actuators, rod bears, main bearings, vanos, the oil spec 10W60, seems quite a lot for a road going engine to manage. The S54, S65, & S85 were the last of the NA M engines. Mindset needs to be, service like a race engine...
10w60 paired with cooler temperatures and impatient owners was always gonna be a recipe for disaster.
For the type of driving and temperatures that most people drive this cars at, 5w40 is the thickest they should go.
@@Legend57. I'm not sure this is true. Many of the early S85/S65 failures were noticed in warm So Cal. If the 10W were the problem, we would see a climate skew to failure distribution and I just don't think there's any evidence to point to that. It's quite possible that 5W-40 makes the problem worse, not better. A 10W is still ok below freezing. If it can be pumped it will circulate. If it was too think we would see high oil pressure and bypass action.
Very good video thank you, like you said not much info on this on the web. I am a lucky winner of a main bearing failure also. BMW should be responsible for this, the B7 RS4 is also a high revving motor but does not have this issue, very upset with BMW about this
Scary problem. When mine failed, the #1 main didn't even spin, but it was melted and wiped out. #1 rod spun consequently, but only just. No discoloration on the crank and the rod journal was still in spec, and I reckon the main journal could also be saved. Bad part is the block was cracked almost all the way up to the bores, so it can't be saved. Scariest thing is the engine ran perfectly beforehand, not even a knock until pulling it into the shed. Just found some metal in the oil. Great idea on that fix, excited to see how it does in the field!
Wow scary. How much is "some metal" as in glitter bomb with the filter covered or a few scraps?
@@01.k.p I changed the oil about 50 miles from home in a shop, and saw sparkly oil on the pan, but assumed it was from another car that had drained. Didn't think much of it. Filter was on backorder at the time and I got it a few days later, which is when I checked the filter and saw quite a bit of copper. That's when I pulled it into the shed, still running perfectly. Worst part is the crack goes almost all the way up to the bores, no saving this block. Had to get a used engine and had it remanned by Carbahn as it had a cracked piston and bore was scored.
Pics on the "Another S65 main bearing failure" thread on m3post.
@@MrElectrify funny enough I’ve probably read it. Not funny situation though.But I’ll reread thanks for the info. It is very crazy the engine was running alright. Makes you wonder how long it would continue since the block was already trashed. I’m glad you got it back up and running. These engines are something. Enjoy in good health
@@01.k.p Still waiting on the Carbahn engine, things are still in flight lol. Hoping to have the car running at the end of the month.
I really wish I knew it was already trash, I absolutely would've run it until something truly catastrophic happened, we've never seen an S65 split in half and I'm curious how long it would take. I'm sure it would've seized before long
Exactly what i have seen in an engine i replaced. Front bearing spun with 0 discoloration or heat. Upper was fully wiped out.
These S65 should not be filled with 10W-60 group 4 POA. Cold start performance and shear resistance is poor with an engine of these tight of tolerances and rpm limit. 5W-50 Group 5 ester based oils with low mile change intervals essentially solve this issue along with the addition of tungsten disulfide.
How about 0W-50?
Hard to believe that the timing chain tension is enough to distort the crankshaft upwards into the bearing, but as soon as wear becomes excessive the rotational cycles of the crankshaft will accelerate the frictional wear causing excessive heat and finally failure of the bearings. The timing chains must have an exceptionally high tensile strength to weight ratio, to bend the crank rather than stretch the chains. Thanks for the technical explanation and well done for engineering a solution.
It got me thinking: wouldnt engines with massive flywheels feel the same thing on the last bearing? Altough when it rotates it should be good, but initially it could introduce a bit of a trouble to that last bearing, at least i would think so. Lets say that flywheel weighs 26 kg + clutch and pressure plate, thats like a cement bag hanging on the end of the crank. I think adding bigger harmonic balancer on the front end could reduce that radial force on the first crankpin, altough it would mess with harmonics
Awesome video, great to see well engineered solutions for this S65 issue.
Will you guys make a similar video for the S63? The number of cars with that engine I've seen latley with bearing failures (rods and mains) is quite scary. It would be good to better understand the anatomy of them and what's causing their issues.
Will do an S63 engine autopsy video shortly coming out of an F10 M5
Thanks chaps. Interesting.
And love your repowers
Thank you for watching and acknowledging.
To say that a road engine that requires maintenance rebuilds isn't flawed is very generous.
Yep, still love my 2013 E92 - 335IS.. :Lemans blue, DCT, one of 269 (and now brembos, Konis, an LSD, Delrin Arms and Rods and //M parts up front) - and no S motor heartache. Just N54 leaks.. and only 80K miles.
The main bearing failure of the S65 engine might be caused by the extra gaped rod bearing. Although the extra gaped rod bearing has more clearance to save itself, the extra gap can also cause pressure loss inside the crankshaft oil channel that feeds oil to the rod bearing. This pressure loss can cause a lower flow rate and reduced pressure in the main bearing. Some S65 engines might survive this failure because the tolerance adds up between parts, and the main/rod bearing gaps aren't too big or too small.
Two cars had main bearing issues in my local shop just after changing the rod bearing (3000-4000km), and now they both need a new engine.
amazing work sir's!
I saw this when M359 restorations was rebuilding his S65 engine and thought to myself "Oh oh, this is gonna be a HUGE problem!"
The biggest problem with this is that this is a whole engine rebuild and with the trouble M359 had to go through before he found a reputable shop, there are about to be a whole lot off blown up e92 m3 engines...
Yes we are trying to create awareness and show an option to repair so that these engines can live on
What do you mean by „found a reputable shop? M539 rebuild it himself😁
@@wojtech270the only help he had was with the alusil bore re-finish process. Yes M539 is a very good technician and a true enthusiast which equates to doing very good work. We watch him and think he is doing very well with his work.
@@wojtech270 Partly. H2Motors helped him a lot.
Seems BMW suddenly forgot that chains in motion have high angular momentum (which increases with velocity squared). When it has to make a turn, it doesn't want to. Which leads to a snareing effect, tugging between the head(s) and the crank. Duplex chains are heavier than simplex, making it even worse. Choosing a duplex chain for a 8000rpm engine for inspirated driving is an engineering blunder on an embarrasing level, it's almost like it was designed to be stuck in traffic at low rpms.
Angular momentum issues in addition to the lack of damping, is why I preffer belts over chains, the added benefit of belts being lighter in general is lower weigh in addition to less inertia, besides the lesser tug. Chains are also a wear item (but people don't seem to know, and is generally much more of a paint to replace)
If one wants a valvetrain that reduces the load on the crank as much as possible in addition to inertia and drive losses, and lasts nearly forever, then spray lubricated spur gears pluss a really good harmonic dampener is the way to go...
Chain speed is not very high due to a small drive sprocket, so there is not a lot more tension added to the chain.
E90 M3 owner here. How much more time/labor would the #1 main bearing fix add during a Rod bearing replacement job on the S65? Would higher clearance bearings be offered for supercharged setups than the increased clearances you’re using as a fix for NA? I too have been tracking this issue for a while and believe you are on the right track. H2 motors in Germany had very similar observations regarding the possible cause of S65 main bearing failures.
If you have to ask how much time and money to own your car. Then, it's time to get a vw beetle 🐞
@@2nickles647 lol literally did not ask about how much more it would cost. I’m asking what other steps are required if you’re already replacing the rod bearings. I.e. If the crankshaft has to come out then do we need to retime the engine? You just sound like you listen to your service advisor at the dealership when he says your windshield washer fluid costs $500
@@jys8569 I'm not a mechanic so take all this with a grain of salt, but I did have an E90 M3 and looked into replacing the rod bearings myself when I bought it. I ended up bringing it to a shop because I didn't have the facilities, tools, or experience at the time. But I became familiar with the procedure.
Doing the main bearing in addition to the rod bearings adds a large amout of extra labor to the job. The rod bearings can be replaced with the engine in the car and without removing the crankshaft or any of the timing assembly. In my opinion it would be crazy to ONLY replace the #1 main bearing if you're going to do all that work, I would replace all 5 at that point. This engine uses a "bedplate" style main bearing cap, which means all of the main bearings have to be installed/removed at the same time, it also means you have to pull the crankshaft completely to replace any of the upper bearings. Pulling the crankshaft means that you would have to retime the engine, unless you could mark/index EXACTLY where the timing chain was on the crankshaft when it was removed.
I am pretty sure replacing the main bearings becomes an engine-out job by that point, where replacing the rod bearings is commonly done with the engine still in the car. There are lots of youtube videos of guys rebuilding these engines, I would recommend watching one of those videos to get an idea of what goes into installing the mains. Once again I'm not a mechanic so I hope that someone else can chime in and make any corrections for stuff I got wrong. Maybe the mains can be replaced with the engine in the car but I double most mechanics would want to do it that way.
Go watch a channel called m359 restorations, he has a series rebuilding the s65 for his e92 m3.
@legend57 @vertvlogs675
I’ve been watching Sreten for a while but I don’t recall if he said a main bearings replacement require the engine to come out. Certainly makes sense if you need to but to be fair, his motor needed to come out regardless since he wanted to recondition the entire short block. @vertvlog676 big thanks for the write up. Certainly helped me bridge knowledge gaps.
Reasons why BMW chose a chain over a belt on these engines, the M10, and M30 have more oil clearance, not sure about M88-M90 oil clearances but stands to reason they have more than these S65 engines . Early M10 and M30 engines are double row chains, they later when with single row chains. It’s quite amazing that the tension on them causes crank to bend at high rpm. There an old hot rodders trick that was used on the SOCH V8 Ford engines, apparently the timing chains would stretch enough at high rpm that one bank on the engine would cause the cam timing to change, Ed Pink described the trick in detail about how he discovered the issue and corrected it for high rpm use in nitro methane drag cars. Two totally different things but somewhat related.
Very interesting thank you
Excellent video - in depth knowledge and great explanations 😊
Awesome stuff mates, cheers from USA
Old problem for s65 i have s85 with 400k km stil factory mains and chain.😊
Thank you for making this x2
You're welcome!
Great video guys
Thanks for video and informative information
You're welcome mate. We share what we can to build a community of engine enthusiasts to discuss and help come up with solutions where possible. Hope the video helped and glad it was informative for you. Cheers
This is all fine and dandy but do we know the oil change history of these s65’s?
So basically S65 engines need a weird amount of preventative works done to ensure reliability….
How much would it cost to bring my car around to get all these works done?
So far I’ve gathered: rod bearings, main bearing, throttle actuators, usual VANOS issues, engine mounts…. (And I’m sure host of other things such as Idle control valve or valve cover gaskets etc)
Assuming drive-in and drive-out, how much would all these preventative/reinforcement work cost???
Email us this and we will respond there. Cars@brintech.com.au
Increasing the oil flow to the front main bearing in particular seems to be a no brainer given the factors mentioned. Did BMW consider those factors I wonder. Another design point may be the capacity of the oil pump and how quickly it gets pressure to that front main on startup.
BMW would not have experienced any long term issues like these id imagine, therefore probably never did anything with it
Is there any estimate on the milage, when it is game over for the main bearing? (assume proper oil service)
Excellent video and repair/improvement. Is there any obvious relationship to this type of damage and extreme usage? Can it be avoided or reduced with shorter oil service intervals and careful warm up?
These things will help
Surely, increasing the bearing clearance in No. 1 main bearing means the crank can bend more?
Will the crank fail more prematurely due to cyclical bending stresses?
And opening up the oil port; if you increase the flow to No. 1, then there is less for No’s 2-5? Might not make a difference, but it’s a ballsy move if you’re not certain that you need the extra oil on No. 1.
Dang. Main bearings trying to compete with the rod bearings.
Thanks for making this
glad you watched - you're welcome and thanks
Thanks for making this video. Very informative. If i may ask, what was the lowest mileage amongst the 5 S65s that are being worked on?
56,000kms
Do you notice a difference in number of failures between the early AC/PS belt drive arrangement and the later one?
NICE!
I have also witnessed S85's with main bearing wear. Usually number 6 and would put to unbalanced clutch assy.
Number 1 could be same issue with extra load from cam-timing going wrong and unbalanced.
No way to know for sure, but love when I find new info.
P
PS: Look for bent rods! Fuel injectors know to leak and cause hydro-lock on s85
@@LSmiata we have also seen number 6 main fail on an S85. The flywheel end could be the issue in these instances yes.
@@BrintechCustomswhat do you think about with my m6 manual swap and one mass flywheel? I wqnt to change it to m3 original flywheel. But it would be still unbalanced to the counter weight on the opposite side: the Vibration damper. Does the original m6 manual maybe has a different damper
@@mowa4820 So long as the rotating hardware is balanced this will help. However the other end certainly needs to be effective in doing the dampening required. Ideally a rotating assembly balance is the correct way to address end to end.
Have you experimented with WPC treatment on both main and con-rod bearings when rebuilding?
Yes have seen them. Good thing. We use our own local Aussie brand ACL bearings which also offer a coating as well. We could have our ACL bearings wpc treated I guess
Is the S85 oil pump chain driven instead of gear driven? Helping to to move some load downwards?
Good old fashioned hot rodding can do right here. If this is a catastrophic design flaw soon the world is going to be running short of these blocks.
In the last sentences, it sounds super att. Like the S85 or the S62, the S65 is constructively closer to a racing engine, because it needs more care and care to a "bread and butter series engine" and consequently. You can blame BMW for leaving the customer unclear about it. But, I think most customers would still not have liked it when buying a new one. But I stick to my opinion that these engines are anything but faulty designs!
Great informative video. Unrelated to the S65 engine, have you guys seen any issues with the B58 or S58 engines? They’re relatively new compared to the S65 and different architecture, but wondering if there are any design flaws we’ll see issue creep up later in their lifecycle. Thx!
Havent one in our possession yet to know what these are like
Is it possible to increase the oil pressure through its range from idle to help the #1 main bearing supply. this could possibility be done with a reduced clearance inside of the oil pump.
This may be a newbie question but Is there consideration for the thermal expansion of the steel insert on the aluminum block?
The lower bed plate has steel inserts embedded in the aluminium also from factory. We havent has an issue from this to date, but it is a good question
Is this theory can be used on N57D30 engines ?
Thank you
Greetings from Sweden, I appreciate all Your in - dept techvideos. Isn't it a slight bit of oilpressure related as well? If we could increase it slightly, without spinning the bearings due to oilpressure, that would also help prevent this failure?
G'day to Sweden. Yes more oil pressure could also help. Another thing we have done is super-polish the crank with an Isotropic process and tumble which turns the running surfaces into mirrors
Why dont you measure home much tension is applied from the chains and calculate additional radial load from chain at speed. That main bearing does not have a lot of surface area. Opening up the clearance will make wear worse for the lower side. Is the front bearing wear from high rpm, or low rpm with cold oil running additional heavy loads through ac and alternator. That chain oil squirter is most likely reducing flow to the bearing also.
Is there any indicator what Mileage these start to fail? I just purchased a clean e92 M3 from Sydney with 115k kms on the clock now. RB done earlier this year
What is your opinion on running a thinner oil in the S65 like a 5W40? I suspect its better because the tight clearance but would it maybe also have a effect on the chain tensioners?
It is a good idea. Just keep in mind this engine sheers the oil quite fast because of the chain system. It is wise to do 5,000km or less service intervals to keep good functional oils in your engine. As the oil sheers and breaks down in molecular structure, the oil significantly reduces in effectiveness and could be attributed to this topic.
I'd like to know the mileage as well as usage leading up to this. I currently have 270,XXX miles and I've done my RB's twice along the way. No more than 6-8 track days and mostly DD duty. I'd like to know oil change intervals too. I"ve gone with 5k oil intervals since 25k miles as well as at least a 2-5 minute warm up daily. Socal car, 2011 M3 Coupe. Great video and information guys!
The lowest mileage engine we have had this happen to is 56,000kms (34,000 miles) which happened on a track day after 3 laps. This is the 2nd crank shown in this video with the black burnt journal. KMs / Miles dont seem to be a single factor to go by alone, all we know is the last 5 engines that have come to our shop for repair have been locked and all suffered #1 main bearing failure.
We should neutralize that excessive upward force by adding another force downwards. Something in the crank pulley, I don't know, just thinking loud. Zero engine inside work.
Were any of these damaged engines supercharged? The supercharger drive belt will have significant upwards load on the crank at the end point.
no, but that is also a thing to consider when they are
One of the reasons why i replaced my e92 competition with a m336 limo
"Tight clearance engine" isn't a thing. Right clearance engine is. There's engines that are higher strung than this that last longer. Examples are easy to find in all types of road going and motorsport vehicles. It's a design issue. Nice car, nice engine when it runs, great engine after you guys re-work it. Thought the fact that it even requires re-work tells you that it has a design flaw.
I agree however. There are suggestions the engine was initially manufactured with lower than engineering textbook clearances to reduce noise emissions, with oe supplied bearings gaining clearance with subsequent production runs as the problem became more noticeable.... now I know, that sounds like a tall tale if ever there was one but it originated in circles not prone to indulging in repeating rubbish. And legislation often produces unintended and unforeseen consequences.
How about increasing the oil pressure..flow? This spun bearings can also lead to crankshaft snapping
What evidence is there that oil pressure is the problem? You can’t just pump the bearing clearance up with more oil flow, the oil pressure pales in comparison to the hydrodynamic lift pressure of the oil film in operation. If this was a flow volume problem it would be most apparent in engines with a lot of low speed operation
@@yucannthahvitt251 On VW BXE engines, big end bearing overheats and lead to crankshaft failure due to lack of oil. Adding a lower bearing on main same as upper one increases oil flow to big end and cools the bearing more.
Is this main bearing issue the same in the S63 V8 in the F10 M5?
No we dont see this in the S63 engines?
The higher redline these S65 are able to achieve likely means you have stiff valve springs and requires more force to turn hence the need for a double row chain, heavy duty tensioner, sprockets, etc.
I assume during testing, there wasn't any issues found with this setup. But after hundreds of cycles of running the engine on and off, the oil isn't able to prevent contact. Could be a very brief period of lack of lubrication such as replacement of an oil cooler.
I'm surprised to learn you're running an extra thousand in clearance. I would have gone for half a thousand only.
Spring pressure doesnt have that effect
@@Funkyflykiwi you are telling me that having a higher spring rate would require more force to compress?
@@brarautorepairs im saying they dont need more force to turn
Curious how many miles/kilometers those engines had on them and side note if they tracked the cars had super chargers or let them warm up proper before flogging
lowest was 56,000kms. All naturally aspirated engines
Regarding the S85, what weight oil do you recommend before a rod bearing swap and after? stick with BMW specs or use a thinner oil?
my S85 is currently around 80000 klm original bearings.everything all other common issues have been done.
If the engine is original and still running its tight clearances, then a 5w30 or 10w40 is not a bad idea, it also depends on your climate and time of year. Post bearings - 10w40 to 10w60 is good, again depending how hot/cold your climate is during use. We strongly recommend Penrite 10 Tenths race oil.
@@BrintechCustoms ok cool thanks. I'm in Sydney are you based in Melbourne? roughly whats the cost too do the rod bearings on the S85? yeah i only use Penrite in my cars, the Penrite gear oil fixed a clutch binding issue on the M5, BMW changed the gear oil specs too suit newer M5's but I had nothing but issues with it. Penrite all the way. 👍👍
How many miles do your engines with this main bearing fix gone thus far?
@@rubindastoor5629 our earliest one was done 5 years ago. Car still going KMs unknown. It's a customer car
@@BrintechCustoms thanks!!! It would be cool if you tracked it for prosperity sake!!!
But how much would it cost to do main bearings?
I heard it was so expensive that at this point it doesn’t merit getting them done considering how much you can get a replacement engine for unfortunately
We replace main and rod bearings for $6k aud. Not expensive compared to a replacement engine at $25k
Right that definitely makes sense. Here in the states you can find an ok used engine for roughly 7-8k aud plus labor for the swap…
It’s actually still pretty expensive and I’ve talked my way into just doing the service being a better idea lol
What is the cost of replacing the main bearings? The whole engine has to come out?
We do the process in car. $3800
Great stuff, but kinda important OIC and oil brand and weight…bet these motors were beat on from cold and ran 10w60 for 10,000 like bmw recommended !!!
2 other factors we feel get these engines to this point. 10w40 is a good number. Penrite 10 Tenths race oil
Another solution would be to throw an s85 in there. If you could get the dct to work with in on the stock tcu would be bonus points
I have been thinking for a while that the bearing oil galleries and supply lines needed to be opened up a bit.
This may be an improvement, certainly any small changes in the right direction will help this engine live longer
Just curious, how many manual vs dct motors do you have that are bad ?
No real relationship. We see both
lots of knowledge here! consider me a new subscriber! im in tech school aiming to becoming a BMW tech.
can the main bearings be replaced while the engine is still in the car?
yes they can
wear happening on start up. edit: do these cars have start stop? cranks dont touch bearings if there is oil, thats my little rule
Hi Brintech Team,
Would love to converse over these failures one S series engine lover to another, could I ask what mileage these failures are happening on average that you’ve seen? Is this something on average you see with 100km plus engines etc, I’ve also wondered if majority of wear happens on crank and initial fire up prior to oil pressure centralising the crank,, maybe acusump might help.
Enjoying the videos many thanks
Given the double row pair of timing chains could be a contributing factor to the tension on the nose of the crank, adding oil pressure would also add pressure to the chain tensioners, this could work against the engine.
@@BrintechCustoms
I think you’ve misunderstood, I’m talking about priming the oil system with the accusump prior to engine start in this case it would have 30-60 psi upon crank I’m wondering if some of this wear is from cold start mechanical advantage on the snout of the crank via chain tensioners prior to oil pressure being established, just a thought I haven’t checked if they are the same tensioner part number as the S85 either ,,, in my mind it’s establishing is this actually occurring in high speed operation or start up , you would think it would fail faster if it were to occur on governing pressure engine speed, it would be eating the upper 1st main as much big ends ,, I’m not saying your wrong at all just a thought, I’ve checked the mains with spares I have and they show similar wear patterns without doubt, definitely a step in the right direction, as an M engine fan it’s disappointing nobody loves them more than me but I’ve stripped Audi Rs4 engines with 200k and you could re use the bearings with less favourable on paper design …. Rod ratio etc etc … appreciate the videos and lengths you’ve gone to, and I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with peanuts insulting your business on a public forum with absolutely no grounds as it’s very clear from your videos your not beginners.
Cheers thanks for the vids
@@simonmuirhead5930 Yes i understand now thank you. Yes there is a common things with an S65 on cold start especially if they have sat for days or weeks, a horrible rattle while oil pressure builds up and fill the VANOS hubs etc. I can see the advantage an a pre-start pressurising of the oil circuit. The S65 tensioner part numbers are 11317839053, and unique to the 65 only. The S85 are different, and single row chains as we know. Thanks for the encouragement, we try our best. Some people just dont have the capacity to have a constructive discussion when it comes to problems. We know that our efforts are recognised and acknowledged in the wider community of those who are here to learn with us. Thank you
Why not just develop a softer tensioner?
Straight six is the way to go..
BMW m crankshafts normally have almost an extra 0.001” of clearance in the main no.1 Journal anyways, however I always make sure no1 is the loosest when sorting bearings into size order. 👍
Just checked a e36 m3 S50B30 Euro crankshaft (brand new) and no.1 = 59.956mm and no.2 to no.6 are 59.980mm. 59.980-59.956=0.024mm, 0.0254mm is a 0.001”. Just incase I’m called out on this 👍😅
how much does it cost to put in new main bearings?
$3800
@@BrintechCustoms but, I imagine this is a engine tear down and require to remove the block?
@@crispcarguru303no can all be done in the car
@@BrintechCustoms more of a pain though?
@@crispcarguru303much easier than a full extraction and tear down. Cheaper also
If the clearances are so tight, could you use thinner oil, like a good 5w40 to help everything?
5w50 is what i run now
Like most new bmw equipment its built to last until the warranty runs out then they have no comebacks.
That's not true anymore...toyota helped bmw now they are by far the most reliable german car beating merc vw into oblivion
Ok so this just totally turned me off buying an e9x m3 😬
Reasons why a belt is better than a chain….?
More chains than brains. only stirring people.
all engines should be measured at operating temperature
also, boring and honing should be done with bed plate or girdle installed
get your pistons true size using a lathe and blowtorch! heat up the piston to temperature and cut to size
torque wrench procedure is also a huge factor. much like a conrod strain gauge- make a jig to measure stretch with head studs and mains after torque..while this isn't able to get you exactly accurate it can definitely measure if one thread has stretched more than the other.
Great tips and that does sound like a further improvement again that engines would benefit from. Cheers
Only cause is 10W60 oil.
I know sfa about bmw engines. But just watching this is the snout is so long and looks to be completely unsupported. I bet it its whiping causing your bearing failure. The weight of that balancer and pulley . The tension because of a daul chain opposed to single row is of little consequence. 8200 rpm as your stated unsupported is your answer not the chain.
Yes this is the other likely scenario. We have also started looking into a support bearing up behind the front crank seal housing.
@BrintechCustoms is this the engine in the M3 ? Looks like if you made a billet end you could fit a bearing .
@@stevesteve7089 yes a bearing support has been looked into
How a company building cars for more than 100 years couldn't get the bearings right?
Its a fine balance of maintenance and handling after they leave the factory. Its a 4.0L engine producing 400bhp compared to 6.0L Chev V8 making the same. The rods are narrow and internals under much higher loads. What could have been done better to prevent this by BMW? That is a good question and open to suggestion.
@@BrintechCustoms Ask the Japanese.
@@FairladyS130 maybe, but the Japanese have never made a V8 that comes close to the performance of an S65… the 2UR in the old ISF is the closest and it’s a larger, heavier, lower revving engine that still makes less power so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.
@@yucannthahvitt251 Obviously if the V8 BMW engine produces significantly more power per liter than other V8 engines it would require different engineering to those other engines to get similar life. Sports motorcycle engines engineering with their notably oversquare engines would be a good start. But perhaps BMW have also tried to make the engine too compact which would restrict bore size and reduce crankshaft length and hence bearing widths. Anyway BMW have stuffed up somewhere in the design.
Such a turn off for buying one of these otherwise incredible cars.
Dont let is worry you too much - just try to plan a routine bearing maintenance process for is and this can be overcome with confidence. The engine deserves it as we also agree they are an amazing machine and generally one of the best Euro V8s built.
just put a S85 in E92 lol
@@BrintechCustoms Hi, at what mileage would this main bearing becomes an issue? Are there any correlation with mileage? Some comments are suggesting that the production date after 05.08, when BMW switched up the accessory belt is the cause, I personally don't think it's possible.
@@SuperPandarenmileage alone is not enough of an indication. Just change them regardless
is there any possible way to redesign the tensioning system to lessen the upwards pull? ive never seen the front of one of these engines disassembled so parden me if its a dumb question.
We are thinking of running an outboard roller bearing
Jesus, just look how much crankshaft length there is beyond the front main bearing. That's a crazy dumb design.
What do you have there is complete disregard to correct oil change intervals
Mechanics Vs Engineers. The Age old battle. If only mechanics designed engines and such... Maybe mechanics wouldnt need to fix the engineers snafus'?
How many engine would be ok if just people change there oil in high rpm sports cars … like 3000 miles then change oil.. this nonsense with 15000-20000 miles interval longlife bla bla . Its just for the car maker to sell cars with a TCO of service that will look ok. But in high rpm v8 oil need to be change more often then people does
This is 1 of the critical things yes. 5000km max
It's hard to imagine the cam chains having more upwards/pulling force compared to crank weight and 8 pistons pushing downwards lol,,.I think most v8s could do with a bit wider bearings/surface area.Even a Holden 308 will show some rod/main bearing wear at around 150k/km,with normal and some spirited driving,where as most 4 cylinder engines will have as nearly new bearings,but worn bores.If I had to build an S 65 engine for myself,I'd probably hog out the oil holes,put slightly oversize bearings ,and use a 20w 50 oil,,assuming they're designed for 0W 20/30
You hit the nail on the head! With 8 pistons driving the crank hard Into the block bedplate, and 4 rows of chain and a serpentine belt system out beyond #1 main, the crank snout is bent up and makes contact with the upper shell. Something is trying to bed the crank
@@BrintechCustoms Yeah,,It's pretty obvious something is,,seeing that #1 bearing worn like that,,Keep up the good work,,cheers
This is old news lol
the amount of issues i've had with my e46 m3 and having to unfuck the things brintech have done to my car. if they can't do basic maintenance and routine mods, imagine how bad getting your engine rebuild by them would be
Jake - I do not have any record of you as a customer. This is the first we have heard anything from you about any E46 M3 problems. Perhaps contact us and identify yourself so we can discuss in detail what you are talking about.
@@BrintechCustoms customer was the previous owner.
I thought wrongly having brintech on all the receipts was worth something.
long story short, csl airbox, rear dif, cooling and some odds and ends.
The amount of time and money put in to attempt to fix the issues. redo improperly done work.
definitely the joys of buying a old bmw. thank god nothing to do with the engine internally was touched by you.
@@F41LZZz Jake how about contacting us privately with the information of the customer and car. I'd like to know more and see who the tech was at the time. We have had ex staff issues and quality control is important to us.
@@BrintechCustoms the car is now out of state. I certainly bought it with rose coloured sunglasses on. due diligence is primarily at fault on my end.
these things are such a hassle to try and fix, and throwing money at it hasn't worked.
@@F41LZZz if you email us and give some specifics of What you are battling with, whether you feel we are capable of helping or not, I'm sure I can shed some light and be of some assistance. We always address any issue given the chance, at this stage I'm still in the dark about what you are talking about. Get in touch Jake and let's work this out
these examples have to have tracked or steady redline with crap oil…..mildly driven opened up often but no sustained full on driving this cant be the same result