Great Battles: Was there a Trojan War? Recent Excavations at Troy
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Was there a Trojan War? Assessing the Evidence from Recent Excavations at Troy
In the course of the latest campaign of excavations at Troy, in northwestern Turkey, archaeologists have uncovered a wealth of evidence that enables us to situate the site within the political and military history of the late Bronze Age (14th/13th centuries BCE). Dr. C. Brian Rose, Curator, Mediterranean Section, Penn Museum, speaks at this "Great Battles: Moments in Time that Changed History" series lecture program.
Channels like this and the one from the Oriental Institute are such a wonderful antidote to all the channels that treat history as a branch of entertainment rather than a serious, grownup field of study. Thanks so much for making these lectures available, they are a wonderful resource!
Totally agree. The History Channel stuff is unwatchable, for example, with all that gravely voiced movie-trailer-esque BS. History can be an exiting story WITH nuanced details, fieldwork, and careful study. I tend to turn off even BBC docs these days, because they feel so sensationalized and fluffy. Lectures are the way to go!
BBC just tries to further an agenda, and actually warps and lies about history. BBC,s history department is part of their drama unit. (or may as well be).
Governments use history to promote agendas and bias which they tap into the minds of their citizens, historians gather reports and examine them with the help of fellow historians and experts in other fields without bias no agenda...
They dont even require it as entertaining in high school its just gone
@@robertarmstrong2470 'Twas not always thus: see Michael Wood's excellent early documentary on Troy (and his other historical work).
The answer is between 37:30 and 38:30, and it is a "yes" for wars between myceanean greeks and hittites, very likely involving Troy.
Excellent talk. Thank you for the update, Dr. Rose.
dr ros has no clue abaut trojan war in the homers iliad has never been mantionetd greeks or helens the ware was betwin east and west pelazgus i ges dr ros he needs to learn more abaut the trojan war
Thank you very much for this hugely entertaining presentation.
So even 4000 years ago there was some old guy yelling "Bloody Tourists!!!"
That was a good one, decent audio quality on this one too. Thanks.
The magnetic device scanning the ground down to 10ft (3m), would be ideal to use on the area of the ancient Wilusa bay (now silted over). Homer says the Greek ships were shored on the western shore of that bay.
The silting would mean interesting objects lie at a depth of less than 3m.
You would not need to scan the entire ancient lagoon/bay, just the area where you calculate the 1000 ships would have been shored, Greek encampment would have been made. The imaging would be a lot easier to read and less convoluted than the results you’d get at the mound itself.
Apart from proving the historicity of the amount of ships and Greek encampment (arguable), it might actually give an insight into the identity of those ships / Achaeans? Sea Peoples?
The Sea People were a ragtag bunch of marauders who took to the seas. Homer says Agamemnon collected 1000 over various tribes and took to the sea.
The idea that we have built tourist traps for literally 2500 years is hilarious.
Is there any legitimate evidence to substantiate that Troy VI was destroyed by an earthquake? I'm not familiar with the work that has been done at the site, but it would seem rather unconvincing that the only evidence of a supposed earthquake is the way the stones appear. Is there any way to tell the difference between stones being toppled by human hands, or stones falling because of an earthquake?
so they have yet to say definitively NO
This is dealt with by Michael Wood in the BBC series "In search of the Trojan War" - evidence to support the theory of destruction by earthquake are photos of fallen brickwork: but this could equally be caused by the city being sacked and burned.
This may be old, as it's now commonly held that Troy VI was either destroyed by war, or destroyed by war and an earthquake
@@schester159I was thinking about that series as well. It’s one of the very best. Unless something has changed and new actual evidence has emerged you just can’t prove it was an earthquake instead of a war that destroyed Troy VI. Something happened between the Myconian’s and Troy or that epic story wouldn’t match up so well with the archaeological evidence at Troy and it wasn’t a few Greeks joining the “Sea People”. I could go on but I’ll spare you lol.
Great lecture, great lecturer. Thank you.
Patrocles being dragged by Achilles. I don't think so. Hector?
Patroclus was dragged by Achilles around Troy's walls? And here I always thought that Achilles did this to Hector! Maybe I misread the Iliad?
no he just misspoke
He's talking about the reboot
Aeneas was a refuge from the Trojan War,fleeing to what is present day Rome,in ancient times of course,he was a original founder of Rome,along with Romulus and Remus,according to tradition.
Aeneas was created by Virgil for the pleasure of Augustus
@@pedroavellarcosta9389 I don't think so..
Aeneas is mentioned in Iliad many times by Homer..
@@BalkanCrusader I didn't doubt that, but really could say for sure. Meant more as the whole history, as a character. Or it is at least hinted somewhere how he ended up, and my whole world is a lie?
@@pedroavellarcosta9389 The Aeneas myth of Rome goes back at least to Rome's earliest historians in the 3rd century bc, but those works only survive in later quotes and references, like Quintus Fabius Pictor.
Excellent lecture!
We visited the ruins of Troy in 2012. Absolutely fascinating.
Yes . Turkey is simply amazing.
So much to see there .
jesus... You've got enough smart people there... couldn't one person figure how to set up the audio?
Literally nothing wrong with the audio of this video.
"Literally nothing wrong with the audio of this video." My left channel silently agrees.
Excellent and informative lecture,shame about the sound level it is too low even with my volume at max, sack the sound engineer!
This poor man spend 25 years digging up some obscure city, thinking it was Troy.
Schleimann was a disaster
See this makes me wonder. if troy is real. whos to say the legendary heros werent as well, and their feats could be real at the same time. as the saying goes. heros turn into storys, storys turn into myths and myths turn into legends
Check out 39.00 onwards he talks about a local Trojan leader called Paris. It seems likely heroic bards sang songs of local rulers and or heroic warriors and these oral stories passed through generations before ending up in mythic form the Illad etc. In other words I agree but the feats were most likely greatly exaggerated and distorted through time.
On the subject of the claims of various people to being descendants of the Trojan: modern genetics and populations studies would (cautiously no doubt) tend to support these claims. In fact it seems overwhelmingly likely that we in the West at least are all descended from every ancient person who passed on their genes to the modern population.
Buen video.
It’s the most ancient tourist trap! I still want to go!
Lights down mics up that's the way we like to......
Listen to our presentations...
I wonder what parallels can be drawn between the Sea Peoples and Homer's "catalogue of ships".
Agamemnon collecting various tribes and commanding "1000 ships" across the sea, does not sound all that different from actual LHIIIC marauding pirates with unknown origins wreaking havoc along the Aegean.
I think we need to stop seeing Homer as a global historian of the era. He didn't have all the global facts. If there is a kernel of truth to the orally transmitted origins of the Homeric epics it should be seen as localised history, not global.
Like an account of the D-day landings from a locals point of view without any broader knowledge of WWII or global geopolitics of the time.
Sure the Sea Peoples caused havoc all over the Mediterranean, but (if the Homeric account is based on a kernel of truth) Homer would not have known that in a geopolitically broad sense. He (or the sources of his/their work) were not regional historians, just local observers.
It has been proposed that, indeed, the Sea Peoples could have been mycenaeans. On the other hand, I think people get too harsh on Homer and his relation to History: he wrote like five hundred years later the possible facts, and wasn't a historician, but an epic poet, so to request details' accuracy is out of place.
Nevertheless, that doens't mean either that he invented everything up; Troy was real, there was a powerful greek civilization contemporaneous with Troy and the Hittites' Empire, and there were conflicts between Mycenaeans and Hittites. The back bone for a mythified version of loosely remembered, but real, historical events, is served, a mythified version designed to the major glory of the audience, which was of the same kin as the poet. It is not necessary to have full historical accuracy in order to have a "historical background".
@@migueladolforomeroblanco7659 They were in trade with each other so quite possibly Homer could have passed on more of a global perspective
Lol. Wtf has sea people do with Homer if others speak of it too?
@@migueladolforomeroblanco7659 Homer got a ton of details right that later classical authors wouldn't know, including the names of a multitude of cities that were gone in his own alleged era, what the cities were known for, the names and nicknames of their rulers, etc, what they wore, how they fought, their customs, and so forth.
@@AkakaDomenjer The Sea Peoples bruoght havoc to he Bronze Civilization, a few decades after the possible period for the Trojan War, and one of its victims were, precisely, the Miceaneans. It has even been claimed that possibly, the Peoples of the Sea WERE the Myceaneans, sent to the sea after the colapse of their civilization, and tha the sack of Troy colud have been performed by the Myceaneans as Peoples od the Sea.
Sound needs turning up. Spoils what could be a good lecture.
LOL! I am loving this Brian Rose guy! He orchestrated the literal sacrifice of a lamb in the pursuit of excavating sections of Ilium! LOL! 😆
Excellent stuff, thanx ;-)
I have been wondering about many of these things for years, ever since I read about the early excavations and watched Michael Wood's brilliant 6 part BBC series about Troy from the 80's - from way back, when they could still make proper TV and take their time to go into great detail about a topic ;-)
In search of the Trojan war - The Age of Heroes ( part 1 of 6 )
watch?v=CkbUQKyie_w ( I can really recommend this series - even though it's rather old now )
"In search of the trojan war" is something that I re-watch for enjoyment. Truly a well made documentary and exceptionally educational series (mini-series?) whatever it was.
yes, that was Woods masterpiece
I still have the Michael Wood In Search of the Trojan War series from 1985 on VHS,DVD and accompanied book too and London claims to have been founded by refugee Trojan Aeneas only proof a corner of a huge citadel with walls 15ft thick going down into the subsoil with a 4ft layer of burning on top which the excavator Prof. W Grimes thought was from Boudicca's Rebellion of AD61 He was not allowed to dig any further as a new office tower had precedence this site was at Bush Lane,City of London (Roman London) there is also the London Stone in nearby Cannon St which also goes well down into the subsoil too as is reputed to commerate Aeneas founding of London.
@@geoffhunter7704 It would be fantastic if MW would do a follow up series in the same style and detail about the more recent finds in Hisalik (Troy) outside the citadel(s), where a large lower city has been discovered.
@@Bjowolf2 There is more than one follow up,on you tube enter "The Truth about Troy" and a selection of programmes come up including Pete Kelly's a seminal work titled "The Sea Peoples and the Bronze Age Collapse" 2020,Eric Clines 1177 The Bronze Age Collapse series of lectures gives you up to date Troy info.
This is awesome but please buy a better microphone
It''s probably a great microphone. But it'd be better if they moved it inside the auditorium.
did he ever answer the question in the title?
Dr. Rose: we love you, but stop wandering back and forth across the stage (in front of your slides) or get a better light pointer. It’s disconcerting to see you appearing and disappearing into that badly lit stage.
He was making a live lecture, not a YT video.
@@RonJohn63 Yes, but laser pointers are hard to see sometimes even at live events. If a large screen tv is being used, they can be perilous as the damned things reflect.
The audio in ALL OF YOUR LECTURES, is terrible.
Which is a tragedy.
I'm expecting more than this.
Can you improve the audio?
Classical scholars snubbing the 2004 Troy movie should get down off their high horse.
The horse in the Alexander mosaic is almost certainly NOT Bucephalus - he would have been too old to ride at the battle of Issus, which is the subject. It's true he took him into Asia, but Alexander would have several spare horses to choose from! - and traditionally at least Bucephalus was black.
Poor Bucephalus, he was too old to take on campaign!
4:01 And it's why Turkey is in NATO.
1:13:14 That's the diplomatic way of saying, "give us the gold, or you can't dig here anymore!"
@Hoa Tattis the last sentence confuses me.
@Hoa Tattis good to know. Thanks.
How does the word Helen, relate to the word Hellene? Or Hellas?
It doesn't.
"Helen is a feminine given name derived from the Ancient Greek name Ἑλένη Helenē (dialectal variant: Ἑλένα Helena) whose etymology is unknown; a derivation of the latter from ἑλένη, a variant form of ἑλάνη, i.e. "torch", is considered "rather uncertain". Another possible derivation is from Greek Σελήνη Selene, meaning 'moon'."
"From Ἕλληνες (Héllēnes, “Greeks”), most probably a derivation of Ἑλλοί or Σελλοί, the Greek inhabitants of the area around the sanctuary of Dodona (Δωδώνη), itself of pre-Greek origin. In Greek mythology Ἕλλην (Héllēn), whom the Ἕλληνες (Héllēnes, “Greeks”) were named after, was the son of Δευκαλίων (Deukalíōn) and Πύρρα (Púrrha)."
So no one gave you a clear answer on that, though faarsight gave a lot of great details. The answer is that there might be a connection, or there might not be. It could be a coincidence. Both might have come from the same root a long, long time ago, either meaning 'mountainous' or 'torch-like.' The trouble is that you have people who see Homer as a reliable source to history, relating things that he/they had heard. It may have been a more convoluted process, where names and allegory, symbolism etc., had already been so mixed up that Homer was unaware of their significance OR that Homer him/themselves were intentionally being symbolic but we've lost the context to understand that symbolism. tl;dr we don't know. It's a fun question to think about, right? I tend to think that it IS related, and she represents the kidnap of a large number of greek women via piracy, etc. It's hard to believe a war would be fought for one woman sans compounded national interest.
Nicholas Thurn Hi!The names of the characters of Iliad and Odiseo are symbolic ones.They are given according to the characteristics ascribed to them.The albanian language offers an explanation for the meaning of most of the names.Es to Hellen,it may come from "e lena" which in albanian means "the one who left" because she left her husband.Menellaos may come from "men e la "that in albanian means "mind abandoned ,mad,because he made a war for a woman.Casandra may come from "qes ander"that means explain or make the interpretation of a dream because she had a frightull dream about the horse.Achile may come from "aq i Leht" which means "so lightweighted,agile"because Homer describes him as a deft,rapid,speedy foot".Odisey may come from "udhe ziu" which means "suffered tripper"because of the tormented trip he made on his way back home.Even the names of the greek gods find their meaning in albanian.Leibniz had sad that the truth stays in the albanian language.Maybe that's the reason why the turks and the bizantines accordingly prohibited and cursed the albanian language.Greetings!
@Jeremy Kirkpatrick Gee I bet it took him years to come up with such a complex explanation.
This presenter repeatedly refers to the earthquake at Troy around 1300 B.C. I assume he's talking about the destruction level dated elsewhere (Michael Wood and others) to about 1260 B.C.. It is this level Michael Wood attributes to the Achaean siege. This is because the Mycenean palace and political culture as described by Homer better fits the description of the Achaeans in their heyday than later on when they were in decline (the 1180 B.C. level). Schliemann himself found Mycenaean weapons in this earlier destruction level. I expect that now that Luwian archaeology and scholarship is finally getting traction archives will eventually be found that will clear up much of the mystery surrounding the Trojan War.
Michael Wood's series was nearly forty years ago, and the chronologies have been changed. Also, he mentions the earthquake theory as given by Blegen.
Can`t hear anything.
ok excuse me BUT the movie Troy was not horrific.. Not accruate to The Iliad but not horrific.
sound low
It sounds as if Kermit the Frog is making the presentation. Can't see Miss Piggy taking on the role of Helen, though.
I thought Neil Seddaca was the man - the style & tempo does detract from the content a bit...
Very doubtful that the siege lasted 10 years, 10 weeks maybe as a skirmish in a bigger war. The caloric needs of 100K-150K men that came in the 1096 ships would have been way beyond the capacity of the area. Life expectancy in the Bronze Age was 26 years, doubtful warriors would agree to spend half their lives on a foreign shore, separated from wife and family and means of supporting them. Granted the elite would have had better nutrition available to them so their life spans would have been longer. Plus the attrition from disease, weather, age, wounds, malnutrition would have taken a heavy toll on the Greeks.
!0 years sounds pretty heroic though doesn't it? The heroic age of Greece, the late bronze age, bards spoke of it for 700 years before Homer (maybe) wrote the Iliad. Some things should be looked at as, "this is how you tell a story." A great story that will be remembered for ever.
lol, so far at least
oh, you mean you don't buy into the WWF hulks portrayed in Pitt's Troy? That was so stupid. There wasn't enough protein to support men to that size. That movie was doomed from the start when you cast Brad Pitt as Achilles.
But they did as far as ongoing wars in the ancient world. They were farmers and fought seasonally.
The Afghan war lasted more than ten years for the Americans.
@@taroman7100 If you think the movie Troy was bad, try watching Troy: Fall of a city. Some sources describe Achilles to be light haired. But Troy: Fall of a city showed him to be black and him fighting Hector near a highway with road signs!!!
I thought it was pronounced Wilusha in Luwian, not Wilusa?
Lousy audio
Looks like it was a quality lecture, but I cant hear anything. Im out. Disappointed.
Did Alexander think he was the son of Zeus by the time he got to Troy?
I think that part started in earnest when he was winning and entered Egypt--after Issus?
Ok, the city itself turned out to be true.....but everything else.....just a story. Trust us....
Now, about that grant....
I wish they can rebuild it
+Noah Haddad They might be able to recreate it a few miles away, as they did with Jamestown, Virginia. You can visit the original site, which is still being excavated, I think, then go to the museum village where the town has been recreated in accordance with written records and archaeological findings. Time Team Special #32 deals with excavations at Jamestown done in 2007.
so...uhm...was there a Trojan war?
Probably more than one.
No sound, fact
city Skadar in Albania is real Troy.
Not audible.
Literally just deaf
Yes there was a Trojan war
He seems to not really be familiar with Jackson Pollock when he makes the comparison to his chart. A Corny attempt at humor Doctor. More like Kandinsky's geometric style.
1Horse free market money.2horse knowledge money 3 horse of social money.Olways is one person in one horse noone in two or three in one time.one house one person more is free market house and horse.some citys dont like troy sistem and economy.than come wood horse for money.tey stay so long on the city wall and waith for vapen,when is wooden horse fool of wapen then go with 400kg wapen back home.bronze was valiut,like gold.
Troy was 3 way of money sistem.global sistem.
Expert not
huh? what was that?
Troia was not at Turkey. Its a FAKE
Where was it?
At Grecce . You think ist unbelievable ?
It s true.
We have the smocking gun for it@@BalkanCrusader
@@oktober1839 Absolutely not true. Trojan war was basically an expedition to unknown, mysterious and dangerous land..
please don't pronounce Moscow like that.....Ever!
وتصير لم ت لم تفحص هاتفك وهتك بحاثه ثلاثي وهاتف تحت تهديد وبدايه ونهايه تحت علاسات وقرض واح وامحاء وتم تحديث خلفيات وخلق وخليق اال علاسه وتح @وتجسسي وتم تحديث ذب ذب وسلب وسكس واغتصابات @ وزحف ورا جو ومفر صداميه وشنكاف وسلفيه و@!وجيش مهدي وسلام مدعش وافشاء جيش مهدي وقادسيه وخميني وصدامي وزحف واغتصابات ابراهيميات وعمرانيات وال خضرويات وارقامهن بدايه واسيادها بدايه وطلعات نسخها بدايه واشجار طلعاتها وضواهر اتاري بدايه ومفر كاضمين غيض وعافين عن ناس ومفر سي س تاني ومقتدى وكاظمي وجورج وجنوب عراق دجاله وحراميه ابراهيميات وعمرانيات وخضرانيات وبيضانيات وسمرانيات واشجارها وعناوينها وصورها وزهراتها ووورداتها وجحيمها وجددها ومفر رؤساء عرب وغرب وجحيم وعجاج وتربان وريح وعواصف ومفر صبحا وعدي وقصب وقصي وزيد وزيداويه وام بنين وشيعه وسنه وعراقيات اسماء حسنى ومفر رسلها واسباطها سلابه وقطاعين طرق وعملاقاتها سر سريه ونشاله وكحبجيه وفروخ وكحاب@ ومفر كاضمي وبرلمان ومجمعات وناصر وام ضياء وام علي ومدينه صدر وحريه وبلد وبلاد جدد وسكس واغتصابات @وسبع دجيل ولقد اضل منكم جبلا كثيرا @@@@@@@@@@
Sad. Was expecting a little less glamour and a little more fact, but I guess that's scientific showmanship these days. Have to say the director's valley girl accent didn't help much either--but, I suppose you get what you pay for...
try buying a microphone. disliked.
Xerxes didn't lose his war in Greece. He burnt Athens, which was his aim.
gamesbok Xerxes' aim was to add Greece to his empire, which he failed to do. Burring Athens was a tactical victory, but was also a strategic defeat as it further unified the Hellenistic people against Persia.
MothMizzle
Why did Xerxes burn Athens when it was his city? Xerxes had stated his aim as punishing Athens for their involvement in Ionia, which he did.
If i may quote Wiki on the second Persian invasion;
'The Athenians and Spartans led the Greek resistance. About a tenth of the Greek city-states joined the 'Allied' effort; most remained neutral or submitted to Xerxes.'
Hardly a unified Hellenistic front.
Sounds like the Persians used the divide and conquer strategy with some success. However, if their goal was only to burn Athens to the ground, why didn't the Persians go back home right away? "It was the plan of Xerxes to subjugate the whole of Greece, and it was for this reason he had made such extensive preparations, including agreements with the Carthaginian and Phoenician Cities of the Western Mediterranean to attack the Greek Western Colonies and tie up Greek resources." (www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/greece_invasion.htm)
Question from a later war: Why did Alexander the Great burn down Persepolis when it was his city?
Xerxes did go home after the burnt Athens.
Why did Alexander burn Persepolis? he was drunk.
The Persians sacked and burned Athens, then continued on their campaign. The very next battle the Spartans were outflanked and forced to retreat toward Plataea. After that battle the Greeks laid siege to Thebes for about a month to force a Persian surrender. Meanwhile the Greeks managed to destroy the Persian fleet at Mycale. Without naval support, the Persians had no choice but to surrender. Kicking someone out your house is not the same as that person voluntarily leaving.
Troy is in Finland and futhermore faroe islands and denmark is involved in the Odysse .. read Felice Vinci's book on the subject
Come on. Respectfully, that's really farfetched. It's like the authorship behind Shakepeare debate. A lot of places COULD fit the bill, if we stretch it. But the corroborating details, names, etc, all point to it being in the Aegean. I'll check out the book, though.
Dummy everyone knows the Faroe Islands are just the washed-up foundation stones left over from Atlantis.
Okay I know this is a far fetch but is anyone keen to help a clueless girl out trying to do an ancient assignment?
Did you pass the class or did your professor give you the D?
Serbs are cross the straits Bosfor around 3000 years B.C.
Serbs constructed first Troy 2500. BC It was nice building on the dealers way between Europe and Asia!
First Troy are destroyed 2300BC. and on same place Serbs constructed new Troy ...New troy was better and bigger!
second Troy destroed Nino Belov (Nimrod) in first Aryan campaign 2025.BC
Serbs was building several fortress wich called Troy and all of them called ILION too... Troy was building in honor of Serbian God ELIJAS (ILIJA)
Troy from serbian poem about Troyan War was not in Asia Minor.Troy from the Iliad was on the serbian Helm (balkan)!.It is a city of Shkodra in the river Bojana ... It's serbian capital for thousands of years ..
Today that Serbian capital is under British occupation!
I heard that Serbs were also the original Atlanteans, built the Pyramids, the entire Roman empire, the Great Wall of China, and went to the moon 300 years before the Americans.
MP didn't the "Serbs" also invent water?
Gypsies are descended from the space aliens who planted human life on Earth. This is why they wander the Earth and take everyone's stuff. It actually already belongs to them. People don't give their proper respect though.
TROJAN WAR NEVER HAPPENED ANT TROY NEVER EXISTED !