Marina completely missed the point of the subtitles issue. It's not about people who prefer to watch with subtitles but people who feel they have to because THEY CAN'T HEAR WHAT IS BEING SAID. Maybe the sound mixers should put more work into their 'beautiful sound mixes' to MAKE SURE IT IS AUDIBLE to people who don't have as good hearing as they have and then guess what: more people will listen to their 'beautiful sound mix'! It's such an arrogant position to take that their wonderful artistry somehow trumps the practical requirement to make the sound accessible to a wide audience in the most mainstream genre of all: film and TV! What makes them think that their farts sound so good I want to spend an hour struggling to make out dialogue that is being drowned out by the sound of them.
And I’m sure this is more of a recent thing! If I’m watching an older show or film, there’s never any need for subtitles, but anything newer and I have to turn the volume up to 300 for dialogue only to be deafened by music and sound effects.
Agreed! Absolutely ridiculous that she just jumped straight to blaming it all on the younger generation. She completely missed there’s actually a very good reason why we can’t hear dialogue in recent movies/shows well anymore - there is a *very* good video called Why we all need subtitles now by Vox that explains this
@@cazstrife8635I will watch that video soon but here's my take on it. I think it's two contributing factors, 1, most streaming platforms seem to be releasing movies and series with default audio set to 5.1 surround. Majority of people are not listening on surround sound systems so the centre channel gets lost in translation. 2, Modern flat screen tv's simply sound awful, there just isn't the space within the panel to create a quality sound.
@@cazstrife8635 Eh? She specifically cited The Wire. That is perfect tv that is utterly legendary and is 20+(?) years old now. That didnt need subtitles when it was gaining its accolades and doesnt need them now. But apparently english people people struggle with english/american language now. This i find sad.
Another factor is that younger people are more likely to be living in houseshares or flatshares; even if fortunate enough to live on their own, they most likely have people above and below them or at the very least to the side of them and too many buildings have incredibly thin walls, ceilings and floors, so they have to be very conscious of noise levels so as not to disrupt their neighbours. Modern programmings tendency to lurch from very low dialogue to very loud other sounds within the program and/or adverts being several settings louder than the program means that rather than fumbling with the volume control all the time, just setting it at a level that the loudest bits are acceptable and muddling along with sub-titles the rest of the time. Of course you can watch/listen with headphones, but wildly lurching volume isn't good in that situation either, so back to subtitles it is to preserve your ear drums. Yes, Marina manages to spectacularly and unsympathetically miss the point.
No it's definitely the background music/noise that's getting louder. And all shows are getting darker. I don't need a realistic night if I can't see anything that's happening.
I have 'Cookie Bite' hearing loss, Even though I use bilateral hearing aids I still cannot hear dialogue on many films and TV programmes. I barely watch anything these days. Subtitles are helpful for some but I find they are distracting and they appear then disappear before I have finished reading them. Seriously I can't see the point of TV programmes anymore. I tried using headphones to spare my neighbour but there doesn't appear to be a outlet for the jack
Netflix (and lots of youtubers) are terrible for putting music over the top of talking (sounds like that). On Netflix documentaries, the music is sometimes really pumping, like from an action movie and I can barely hear what they're saying despite adjusting the settings. I've lost count of the number of documentaries I've bailed on within 5 mins. I just can't be arsed battling through it.
Majority of people use subs because they feel they need to, not because it's a lifestyle choice. Combo of sound design, flat screen tv's having rubbish sound properties and most streaming platforms broadcasting content in 5.1 surround by default means people are losing the centre channel (speech) in the mix. I've found using a sound bar +changing the audio format to 2.0 makes it easier to hear people's voices.
Thank you so much for answering my question! Great answer - now I understand those "airport editions" of books and will definitely be checking that shelf more carefully next time, for new releases!
I bought all the DVD box sets of The Wire back in the day - I bought them annually, as they were released - and for the first two seasons I watched with subtitles. I initially started out without the subtitles, but I was losing too much of the dialogue, I just couldn't make it out; so I turned on the subtitles. But at some point it was like a switch flipped in my brain, and I suddenly found that I could effortlessly understand it. So from season 3 onwards, and all subsequent rewatches, I did not use subtitles - I didn't need them anymore. Marina, you're fabulous, and that's a lovely top you're wearing, but it is FINE to watch The Wire with subtitles, particularly when first starting with the show.
Audio processing disorder is common with ADHD and autism. It's not hearing impairment, it's that your brain is slow at processing what it's hearing. If you can't take notes and listen at the same time, that's audio processing disorder. For some people they can't process conversation at pace. This Is why people who can hear will also use the subtitles. I'm an example of the former and my kid is an example of the latter, so we watch things with subtitles on. But subtitles are incredibly unreliable. I call it "The Haughty Courtyard Problem" after a bad subtitle from Rosemary and Thyme. I've gotten in the habit of correcting the subtitles automatically as it happens very often that they are wrong in a way that you couldn't guess what the actual subtitle is. Or they are wrong but still make sense and so you miss the set up for a joke or a call back. I am also annoyed that the subtitles don't respect comedic timing, there's no reason they couldn't. The example that really gets me is Miranda. There were a ton of mistakes in the normal dialogue (I watched on BritBox) but they took the time to make sure Sally Phillips's lines were transcribed perfectly. *This* is the problem with subtitles that people who can hear the dialogue should be talking about.
I watch everything with subtitles on because I often find it hard to understand or hear people. Especially in some things, the soundtrack is so much louder than the dialogue. I wonder if newer TV speakers are impacting the sound?
Just like thinner and thinner keyboards tend to fail more and be worse to type on, thinner and thinner TVs make it harder to have good speakers. A pixel doesn't need much depth, but speakers need some space to bounce air around.
Re Subtitles - 98 % of those who have a home cinema setup (3.1 ie most audiobars, 5.1, 7.1, Dolby Atmos etc. ) have either failed to set it up properly with a mic in your seating position or connected the TV wrong to the amp. or some combination of this. If the center speaker is not by far the loudest speaker whatever you are watching then it is setup wrong. Also most decent people in apartments, who don't use headphones tend to turn down the volume as a courtesy to the neighbors. Hence lots of use for subs.
As a Norwegian I feel like the subtitle takes here are very British/ English. Norwegian television has long had the tradition of having subtitles in Norwegian on their shows. In stead of dubbing (like a lot of other countries do). The increase of subtitles on Norwegian tv was in great part fought forward by the Norwegian deaf community. It had made television and news more accessible. Subtitles have made television with different dialects and languages more accessible. And I find it fascinating that anyone would have an issue with it. A bit of an English / American take, but if you had been used to consuming tv and movies in a different language than your native tongue, I’m sure you’d appreciate it more. (Also there are studies suggesting that more people are getting hearing loss, also younger people, so I don’t think the “if you could hear it before you can now” is correct).
Dialogue mixing has gotten worse, because there is more background music. Yes, it is valid to argue for less happening in the lower part of the screen for anyone that needs subtitles, but that does not mean that it is fine that the dialogue mix is as bad as it is today.
@@TheJonHolstein that could very well be true. I think it’s separate “issues”. I don’t think they make subtitles more available now than they did before because of sound mixing getting worse. I think maybe the streaming services and others have seen an increase in viewers and viewer retention when movies and shows have subtitles so they keep expanding on it. A lot of shows I could only watch with English subtitles before, now I can watch them with Norwegian subtitles as well. Only time I take issue with subtitles are when they are integrated in the movie/ show, and the subtitles you put on yourself overlap and you can’t read anything. That is so ridiculous and truly shows that when they make movies they think about an audience like themself, not the people who can’t understand the language and not the hard of hearing. And they assume nobody will put subtitles on.
@@cecilieailinn More native English speakers, use English subtitles, and complain about dialogue, than ever before. That is the whole reason they brought it up. But since native English speakers have gotten used to have to rely on subtitles, they are now more accepting of having to read subtitles on foreign language media. In general, except for like Godzilla, and a few other Japanese films, the UK and US viewers have rejected dubbing of media, and did not watch it either with dubbing or subtitles. So this is not like the Spanish or the German audience, choosing subtitles over having to see the media with dubbing. This is about native English speakers having to rely on subtitles. By the way, because of how dubbing usually is done, the dialogue it often easier to hear than the original English dialogue. A lot of cable TV boxes has had support for subtitles in the US, since the 90s. So it is not like they had not had the option. The only thing that might have changed, is those were probably often designed for hearing impaired, meaning that there where additional information in the text, like what song is playing, or if a phone is ringing, and so on. With streaming, there is more often than before an option for regular subtitles.
Not a legal thing, but footballers have received bans for things they said in books. Most notably Roy Keane was banned for 5 games for saying in his autobiography that he intended to injure Alf-Inge Haaland.
Can we talk about just how fast Marina was with that "this is Miramar" interjection less than a second after Richard said the phrase "top gun?" Even out of context, she nailed it like she had that quip locked and loaded in her pocket and ready to go for years. That's some Lee Mack level fastness.
Hhhm, not gonna lie, I've been tempted to put subtitles on for TRIE because sometimes Marina's articulation can't keep up with her thoughts. I have also had a conversation with a Head of Sound (oscar winner) who says he sometimes has difficulty with how actors deliver or are encouraged to deliver dialogue - the set is silent during a take, so actors don't always feel they need to use their voice, and I've also had other actors complaining that they cannot hear their scene partner because they are keeping their voice quiet and 'natural', only projecting as far as they need to for the body mic literally inches from their mouth, rather than to the other character in the scene - worth noting this is rarely an issue in comedies. The sound editor then wants to add in music or background sound that wasn't there during the take, but there is just no meat in the vocal track that can compete. And directors may not want to do ADR, because they liked the quality of the take they chose to use, which they listened to on a silent set through good headphones.
Fun fact: The original 80s version of Shogun never had subtitles for the Japanese parts on purpose They wanted the viewers to be as in the dark as the main character
I’m 60 - English and I quite often have subtitles on English language dramas and documentaries but not comedy. But I don’t read them all the time… I am fully listening to the sound mix too! (PS I have worked in film and TV as a director for most of my life) I’m not sure why I started having subtitles on… however I watch all my films and TV on a device or computer.
I've seen your comment before hearing him say this. I've been put off watching it haha. How can someone, seemingly, so intelligent, be THAT ignorant. Sickens me
I was watching Dune 2 recently on my TV and the dialogue was so quiet I had to turn the volume up high to hear it. But as soon as there was action, the music and audio effects were so loud, I had to turn the volume back down. So for 2.5 hours, it was a constant changing of volumes
There's a reason for that. Same recon adverts are so loud. Basically there's a volume range they can use. If they want a big explosion to sound loud, they have to minimise other sounds so when it explodes you notice it. Adverts don't meed a range so everything is broadcast at top volume regardless. Accents and mumbling on the other hand. No excuse.
The discussion about subtitels was also a thing in german tv. The complaint was dialogue-quality. They argued that they mix for cinema or home cinema setups. Problem is: people who watch this sort of stuff rarely have a home cinema setup
@@phill6859 - All Nolan films have nonsensically loud music over dialogue. It's one way to distract viewers from how corny the dialogue is. Did you see RLM's "trailer" for Christopher Nolan's _Twelve Angry Men?_
German Public broadcasters offer a seperate audio track with the dialogue being artificially enhanced for a few years now. Most people would benefit from chosing the stereo track instead of 5.1/7.1 mix already though.
I'd like to know why so many RUclipsrs and other content creators feel the need to include background music in their videos. It's always intrusive and annoying and makes the videos unlistenable.
Usually because (especially live content) you tube will demoniterise their content if copyrighted music is playing in the background. Some content makers pay for or use their own non copyrighted music to play in the background over the other music, some just talk louder over the music.
@@christopher7212 Yes, that makes sense. But I was really referring to people who simply talk to the camera and place background music on their videos even when there is no original copyrighted media to begin with.
It seems to keep people engaged, and that’s all they really care about. Obviously the biggest issue is rookie editors always putting the music too loud
Richard - I have a friend who works at the airport and always gets me the airport exclusive of your books! I love the big book but with the soft cover! ❤
Something related to how hard it is hear is dialogue, is that lots of tv shows and the vast majority of modern movies are mixed in surround sound (5.1/7.1). Hence, if you are watching on crappy stereo tv speakers you will have to constantly be adjusting the volume up to hear the dialog and down to when you hear explosions (tv speakers have less dynamic range). This is also part of the reason why people think old movies have clear dialog, these movies were mixed for stereo 2.0 in the first place.
No, that is not the actual reason, because even if you listen in surround, the dialogue mix is still crappy. It comes down to the ego of the director and sound engineer, because they are so familiar with the dialogue that they hear it in the mix, so they add on underscoring that causes frequency clashes. With surround sound, you still get scenes with explosions and music that is clearly louder than scenes with dialogue, so it doesn't solve the level issue either.
@TheJonHolstein what you're saying is also true, but a surround setup definitely helps. But yeah, there is a degree of artistic intent. I think Nolan said that for Dunkirk, he intentionally did not want the dialog to be clear. Then is also the style of mumble dialog that some actors use (True detective) in contrast to classic Hollywood style, which is influenced by clearer speech of theatre.
I think tv audio is just mixed terribly for tv speakers. I watch tv on my computer with earphones all the time and the audio is great. If I take the trip downstairs and watch something on the tv, the dialogue gets drowned by the music and action.
I have a surround system and haven't had any issues. Doctor Who used to get comments about the music drowning out the dialogue and that only appeared to affect those with standard TV speakers. Others had no issue.
@@Elwaves2925 Funnily enough, I've watched doctor who on tv since it came back in 2005, when Jodie Whittaker started and the entire production seemed to change, it was the first time i ever had a problem with the audio mix. We got a speaker to fix it but still it wasn't near as good as earphones+computer. These days its not as bad as it was, but it it's not as great as it was before that either. It shouldn't take a surround system to be able to comfortably watch telly. That's the kind of thing that's supposed to be additive, not required.
@@rextitan You may be the exception to the rule then, most comments I read were about Murray Gold's score, even though it wasn't his fault. Oddly, I found the theme music for Jodie's era to be really quiet compared to the rest of the episode. As it was only the theme it wasn't an issue.
This was my thought too. I still have the main TV hooked up to an old fashioned amp and surround speakers which both provide the full width of dynamic range to separate out all the sounds, and enable you to adjust the EQ to suit different types of shows and sources. I suspect many/most viewers these days, especially the young, are watching on small streaming devices with little soundbars, or on huge TV sets but with only the internal speakers which blast tinny sound out the back into the wall, meaning you only hear the muddy reflected sound. I'm not surprised it frustrates sound designers and mixers so much to hear complaints, they're artists in their own right and expected by studios to produce the highest quality output, yet the audience is watching on mobiles and tablets and 4K TVs with stunning visuals but crap speakers. The blame lies as much on the device makers to not sell to customers how to get the full experience from them, eg. bundling with quality headphones.
Subtitles are needed because film and tv makers feel the need to batter you with sound as an easy to ramp up the emotions of the audience. Its one of the reasons i stopped going to the cinema because you cant adjust the volume like you can at home.
We've got subtitles on because action scenes or specific moments are so loud that we can't hear the dialogue... Sounds like the sound mixers are the ones who could actually change the situation... But also, my 8yr old is subtitles on all the time
I had this problem for ages. I found that on most programmes, I had to have my TV on so loud just to hear the dialogue. Then I discovered a 'prioritise voice' setting on my TV, and it made a huge difference. So yeah, it's definitely something to do with the mixing, not just a young people thing. Having said that, social media has become a subtitles-always-on environment because you're often watching in a noisy environment, so I guess most young people are just used to it now.
And do you think that, in such a situation you _would_ be able to hear people talking clearly? Maybe you're not _supposed_ to hear the dialogue very well. Maybe that's kind of the point. I mean, it _could_ be just bad mixing (or bad TV speakers), but if "a specific moment is so loud", maybe that's intentional. Same thing when characters whisper. I wonder if some people complained that Alien's spaceship wasn't properly lit and made the monster hard to see. 😉
My work is practical and I watch as I work so I can't use any subtitles because I'm watching what I do. Podcasts, easy to watch tv, stand up comedy, musical performances are great but nothing too quiet and nothing where I would need subtitles. I know I am one of many. There are often posts where someone is asking what to watch as you work. So take heart sound people you still have an audience.
Just found this great show…great to be able to binge watch. I does annoy me that I am up and down with the volume on programmes. Turn it up for dialogue and then music suddenly blares out at a ridiculous level or an incredibly loud fight scene happens and I have to turn it down…..also my tv likes to tell me…next time ask Alexa to turn up or down…I am definitely looking for dialogue boost …thank you for the heads up.
I loved the accents and speech in The Wire. For me it’s like Shakespeare, it’s poetry. You have to concentrate and learn, you have to take time to understand the words and the rhythm of the language. It’s a beautiful thing.
The thing with The Wire is you can hear a whole conversation, not be able to make out a single word, and at the end you still know exactly what they meant. 😁
@@RFC3514 I remember many years ago, watching a TV show based in Glasgow, and it was subtitled because they were worried that us English wouldn't understand it. As a joke, some Scots programs started subtitling English characters.
@@MrRhurbarb yeah, it’s poetry. Not all the characters, but especially people like Omar and Proposition Joe speak with beautiful poetic language and structure. Avon too, has some wonderful lines. 'You only gotta f*ck up once. Be a little slow, be a little late. Just once. And how you ain’t gon' never be slow? Never be late? You can’t plan for no sh1t like this, man. It’s life. Yeah, it scares me.' That’s beautiful writing.
Trade paperback is the worst possible edition of a book. Would you like the impractical size of a hardback without the hard supporting cover of one so it flops around like a paperback and is more expensive? My god, do I?!!
Subtitles are interesting, living in Flanders, Belgium, most of our entertainment was subtitled when I was growing up (movies in the theatre were subtitled both in Dutch and French...). I never thought twice about it, however, when my English became good enough to turn subtitles off, I realized how much more details I was able to observe. To the point I can't go back, because I hate anything on top of the screen.
"Dialogue boost" should definitely NOT be on by default. I would only use it if you are having problems watching a particular programme, then turn it off when you have finished. Some TV programmes are rendered much worse with artificial boosting. See also "noise reduction" and "picture mode". My friend's brand-new High Definition TV looked like blurry VHS, until we took the TV off the "warm" setting.
The guys who sprung George Blake from Wormwood Scrubs wrote about it in a book. They were later charged AND tried. But the Jury chose to find them not guilty as they sympathised with why they did it!!
15 mins in, Marina mentioned about subtitles“The Irony is… something or other..” but the real irony is that on listening to the podcast on Spotify in the car, Marinas voice is so loud but Richard’s is so quiet that I need audio subtitles 😊
Thank you for validating my opinion on audio. My wife and I have a 10 year age gap and occasionally argue over the TV volume. We sometimes use Subtitles but this detracts, as Marina pointed out, from the visual production. I thought that audio was the forgotten technology with TV since the focus on flat screens and HD and 4k has moved audio to the low priority pile. Unfortunately, using the voice focus setting will push all the other audio to the background unless you have a theatre surround sound system. I pity sound engineers as they have to compromise between the Dolby Atmos users and those using a Chinese no brand with £2 speakers and compress the audio into a muddle.
I'm not going against anyone that has issues but I've never had a problem, although I do have a reasonable surround system. One of the fandoms I'm part of used to get regular mentions of audio issues with each new episode. That was about the music drowning out the dialogue sometimes. The divide between those with a problem, and those without, seemed to clearly be those with standard TV/computer speakers and those with surround or headphones. So it does seem like the issues come from mixing the full sounds down to stereo.
@@Elwaves2925 NO. Even with surround equipment, the dialogue mix is crappy. It may be more audible, but it is far from clear enough. Crappy TV speakers, will not help. But it all comes down to the director and the sound engineer being way to familiar with the dialogue, thus overpowering it with underscoring that causes frequency clashes, but they still think it is audible, because they know exactly what is being said. At least DTS:X came with dialogue lift feature as an option. But many directors rejected the idea, because they felt it hampered with their vision. Atmos does not even has that feature as an option, which is bad.
@@TheJonHolstein When did I say crappy TV speakers would help? I don't have any audio problems with my surround system and you don't get to state otherwise.
@@Elwaves2925 I have tried several of surround system, and I got one. No, they don't solve the issues. If you think it does, then I am sorry, you ar wrong. Dialogue mixing is really poor. And surround systems don't solve that. If you think it does for you, great for you. But the over all issue not solved that way. The issue comes from poor mixing, and way too much underscoring, with frequency clashing. And not from everyone using crappy TV speakers.
Making TVs thinner actually made speakers significantly _worse._ If it was just "shitty mixes", as some people seem to think, then older material would still sound great, and a lot of it doesn't (if you play it through TV speakers). Switch to good headphones (ex., DT-250s, which are very neutral and a favourite of studio mixers - though not very comfortable to wear for long periods) and suddenly you can hear both very loud and very quiet things much better.
Most audio seems to be terrible. For comparison, I watch this podcast on RUclips on my TV with the volume at 10. Perfect. With the 73 Yards episode of Doctor who, I was frantically switching from 45 when there was dialogue, to 6 when there was action. It was offensive.
They missed one of the main problems with dialogue. On Netflix, the default sound setting is usually surround. Most people don't have this. If you change it, you can often hear the dialogue again. You're welcome.
Would love a follow-up on Q1 about rap music. Half the genre is bragging about crimes, but would that be given the benefit of the doubt legally, as it's sort of what someone has to do to have a successful rap career?
No, some of us just genuinely have a hard time understanding/hearing what some people say. I never watch a film or show with distractions, and now and then someone will just sound like they have mush mouth to me. Not everyone speaks clear as a bell chime, sadly. They can be fantastic talents but their accent or just how they were mixed is off to some ears. Its the same with music for me, back when I listened to any of it with any regularity. I could not for the life of me make out 90% of what people are singing, even Queen songs, now and then I'll be befuddled by our sweet angel Freddie.
With things like the Chase i always feel like the "we cant let you go away empty handed" donation to the charities, helps. Since it becomes more about how much they get rather they get rather than if they are going to get money.
Watch Richard's appearance on Catchphrase. I'm not joking the other 2 contestants had something like 4-700 quid and Richard had thousands in the bank 😂 He wiped the floor with them, even when he obviously waited for them to get it and buzz in. Some charities need better celebrities is the message.
Richard says subtitles show how many times he says 'errr....' well since he mentions it, it's more like I how often he (and Mariana too) say 'you know'. Anybody else noticed? This is a very irritating tic at such frequency. No I don't know, that's why I am listening to what they have to say and even if I know, I am suspending my knowledge in that moment in time. Punctuating one's speech with constant 'you know's' actually denotes a lack of confidence a shrink once told me as in 'don't listen to me, you know it yourself'. Sorry if you can't unhear it after reading this!
I watch a tv show on Disney+ with my wife, I always have to switch the TV sound to use the tv speakers, instead of the expensive surround speakers otherwise she can’t hear the dialog. I have to admit, the dialog is clearer, and I feel that’s because the music in scenes is more subdued.
Auto-generated subtitles are fine as long as you don't mind the 95% chance that there will be mistakes. ps - as a one-time bookseller I hate trade paperbacks but what I hate more is publishers changing the format of books during the course of a series. I am thinking particularly (because I can see them on the shelf) of Boris Akunin's Fandorin books of which Weidenfeld published a dozen before getting to The Diamond Chariot which is an inch taller.. This will mean nothing to anyone but it's nice to share 🙂
I have the subtitles on because I have poor hearing but can hear somethings. It does annoy me when I can hear something and the subtitles don’t match and certain words are changed or left out.
I call it "The Haughty Courtyard Problem" after a bad subtitle from Rosemary and Thyme. I left a longer comment already so won't repeat here. But I agree this is the problem we should care about in subtitles first. Once they're of good quality then we can decide if they're annoying.
It isn't necessarily about subtitles, it's about the sound, i'm contstantly having to turn my TV up to hear what the actors/characters are saying. If you watch it on terrestrial TV or with adverts on Amazon Prime and Netflix, you turn the sound up to hear the actors/characters then when the adverts come on you have to turn the sound down because it's way too loud.
The incentive for the Chasers is that, if the contestants won every time, the show would become very dull very quickly, and the show would be cancelled. That being said, on celebrity versions where they play for charity, you can tell they're throwing the celebs a few easy chances.
In our house we started with the mandatory subtitles about 12-15 years ago with Doctor Who. The dialogue was just so muffled, and the music so loud that it was impossible to enjoy without it. We attributed it to the show being optimised for better home theatre setups than ours.
Something that others have touched on in these comments as well: Marina and Richard don't mention whether screen and speaker technology has an effect on perceived audio quality and picture quality. Along with inaudible dialogue, another common complaint is scenes which are too dark to see what is happening. It seems to me that it can't be a coincidence that this has coincided with the wide availability of screens that can display HDR, especially Dolby Vision and HDR+, OLED screens capable of almost true black, and soundbars which don't take up a lot of room but can support Dolby Atmos and other surround sound formats. I just assumed that productions were increasingly optimising their shows for these higher end devices. I must admit that when I invested in a better TV the "scenes-too-dark-to-see-what-is-going-on" problem went away. Any chance Richard and Marina could address this in a follow-up?
The dialogue mix is mostly crap even with surround equipment, so that one does not come down to the technology. it comes down to the ego of directors and sound engineers. They know the dialogue, so they can hear it clearly, even when the scene is underscored with music with frequency clashes. The issue with too dark scenes is nothing new. Perhaps it has gotten worse as TV series are produced more like films, so they use the same kind of processes.
Sony and Bose offer dialogue boosting. It does help in some busy series which have additional sounds and music . I do think it's easier to listen on the TV with this compared to a phone or tablet where I might turn on subtitles in some cases as the shows I play there are often background noise where I want to be able to catch up if I am distracted or lose focus on the voices. Often in EU countries there are more films shown with subtitles. It can be distracting if you're watching a VO of a film in English and are decently proficient in English. However you do learn to ignore them after awhile, especially if you've grown up with this being the norm.
The sound mixes have got worse. Ironically because over all home systems are much better. Sound mixers used to listen to final mixes through terrible domestic screens/speakers in order to make sure people at home with the worst equipment could hear clearly. Now they seem to assume that everyone has home cinema sound and mix for that. The home cinema enthusiast are very vocal compared to their actual number... "Hollywood" have fallen for this too, and often mixes have very loud explosions and gunfire, and very soft dialogue in order to emulate how loud these effects would be. The result is if you attempt to listen at a reasonable volume, you have to have a remote in hand turning up and down every few seconds.
I heard that in the past, nearly all dialogue was "looped" ie re-recorded in a studio studio after filming, because the sound technology just wasn't good enough to use the audio captured while filming, ie with the mics far away off screen and people moving around etc. But today it is mostly possible to keep that audio and so they do, but it still isn't as clear as looped dialogue. Not sure if this is correct or exaggerated but it seems plausible.
I'm too lazy to scroll the comments to see if this has been mentioned, but in the US the trade paperback edition of books comes out between the releases of the hardcover and mass-market paperback versions.
As a superannuated professional actor most of whose career has been spent on the stage (rather than in film or TV), I would also blame the contemporary obsession with naturalism. In a theatre one needs to be capable of reaching the back wall; this involves the enunciation of consonants, and paying attention to a good vocal technique. This is not naturalistic, but audiences soon dirsregard the artificiality. TV claims that naturalism is a virtue (!), so actors are encouraged to leave it all to the sound guy and the director. I would advocate greater sympathy with the audience.
Totally disagree about the sub titles - not concentrating?? Total BS. I use them a lot but only for some programs, often well shot 'moody' dramas. Sometimes even having seen the subs and knowing what they are say, when you re-wind to check, it's IMPOSSIBLE to figure it out just from the sound, it's not just about the relative volume.
Richard’s book series on The Thursday Murder Club are simply the best of it’s genre. I’m about to start the 1st of his latest series “We Solve Murders”. I’d love to see a series on Apple adapting “Thursday” but understand the difficulties in casting a gang of elderly actors with the intention of filming multiple seasons. Probably end up with a simplified movie that doesn’t do justice to the novel 🤦🏻♂️
Funny about the dialogue issue. I often find that Marina mumbles, although, not in this episode. And years ago I had to give up on The Wire, even though I really wanted to watch it because I couldn't understand much of the dialogue, regardless of which character was speaking. I know my hearing isn't great so I thought it was just me but several friends, with better hearing, have said the same thing. Also, even if the volume is turned up it seems to be muffled and as if it's being spoken under a pillow. The comments about insufficient speaker systems in flat screen TVs seems to make sense. I hadn't thought of that before
The great thing about RUclips us that you can change the speed you watch videos at. I always have to watch channels like this one at 0.75 speed at they gabble too quickly
On trade paperbacks: I’m going to start with I don’t know if this is still true, but this was true in Canada in the early 2000’s. Trade paperbacks were a part of the publishing cycle for books, especially from well established authors. It would go hardcover when the book was released & was the most expensive, after the book had been out a year it was time for the trade paperback & that could 5 to 10 dollars cheaper & then another year & you get your 10 paperback & then the paperback became the book the store would stock.
I am told Matthew McConaughey is a great actor. I have no idea if he is or not as I've never been able to understand him. Without subtitles he might as well not take a speaking role. Has anyone, like me, thought he hasn't bothered to learn his lines?
Re Subtitles you didn't deal with WHY we want subtitles! Dialogue on movies and TV has become far harder to understand. You talk about sound mixes being miffed because the public are missing out on their lovingly crafted audio mix, yet someone should tell them to pull their finger out and make the dialogue audible! And whilst we are at it, tell actors to talk clearly too. Finally, sorry Mariana, but you gabble and swallow words! Love you really.
I have subtitles on all the time when watching TV drama because otherwise neither I nor my partner can hear enough of the dialogue. I would assume our hearing is not as good as it was, but the only time we're aware of it is when watching TV so our hearing can't be that bad. Dialogue boosters don't really help. As a general rule, the more sophisticated the sound the harder it is to hear the dialogue - I have no difficulty hearing what is said on this video for example. If filmmakers don't want us to use subtitles they need to make dialogue more audible,
/*Sometimes, not always. Uploaders don't always enable them, automatic subtitles can detect the wrong language, can't detect it with background music, etc.
Set the volume so it's not too loud during the loud parts and the dialogue will be too quiet. Turn it up to hear the dialogue and you'll have to turn it down again when the explosions start. Put the subtitles on and the volume can be set at a good level and you'll still understand the dialogue.
About the subtitles, as someone who learnt English as a second language, I regularly switch on subtitles just to understand what was said. Too often I have problems with thick dialects or Advents, laughtracks or other loud background noises and actors mumbling through their script. So it's helpful for me to rewind the scene and read the subtitles to be onboard. But yes, soundmixing or elocution have become poorer, maybe both. I don't quite get Richard's point that the visually impaired get left behind on subtitles. It is true, as long as you imply an unknown language or some form of visual gags. But that's nothing new, and on the other hand you have the hearing impaired who can't participate without subtitles. Last I checked that has been true forever. I am curious, where I live the public broadcasters occasionally offer special audio tracks for visually impaired people, describing characters and actions between the dialogue. Is there something like that in the UK?
Subtitles, OMG, hate them. Any YT channel that does not make them optional I ban from my feed. My other issue is this mad trend for putting white text - like actual Titles, credits, narrative notes like locations etc - on light or white backgrounds! WTF, don't they want us to read them?
I often have to rewind tv shows to hear what they’re saying and I still don’t get it therefore I have to turn the subtitles on. I wouldn’t agree that it’s because we’re more distracted therefore we are concentrating less.
I have to use subtitles in any action film because the dialogue is just mumbling interspersed with ear splitting explosions/shoot outs/ car chases. If I modulate for the speech it’s impossible to tolerate the sound of the action.
One of the problems with dialogue is that there seems to be a trend for actors to whisper in the most odd places. Sure, if you're telling a secret but there are so many examples where we, the audience are going eh? what? In the truly terrible 'Battle of Los Angeles' Aaron Eckhart is whispering to a fellow soldier in a humvee in a war zone! Worse still and I'm sorry but Rebecca Ferguson going into whisper mode mid sentence countless times in the Mission Impossible Films. No one, no one, talks like that. STOP WHISPERING!!
Why when I’m watching a drama of one genre or another that the incidental music rises in volume until the dialogue is obscured. Is this to do with the format or platform the drama is being watched upon?
no no no, we're not 'reading television', the subtitles are there for a quick reference if you misshear/cant hear the dialogue, there is a knack to it where you're taking in the whole screen and subconsciously reading the subtitles. It doesn't take up all of your concentration if you're used to it.
When I start playing a new game I turn all the volume to about 70% and put the dialogue up to max and then usually end up putting the subtitles on anyway. If I'm watching TV and the dialogue audio is no good, I usually just find something else to watch. I'm 44. Never had an issue hearing quiz shows but a lot of dramas recently seem to have terrible sound quality so I just don't bother. I think the BBC was the worst for it but at least they don't suddenly switch to ad (at normal volume) when your sound is 4 times higher than it should be.
I find I have to use subtitles (I hate them) on Film 4. The sound on their channel is awful. It is muted and muddy except in the adverts which are always clear and LOUD! To give an idea of what I mean I usually have the tv volume set to 35-45 but for Film 4 I need to use 75+ and it’s still not loud enough. It is infuriating. I’ve tried every setting on my tv but it make very little difference. I’ve asked them about it on social media numerous times but they never respond.
I started subtitles on an english language show with Game of Thrones, mainly because i couldn't understand how people were related to each other, and the surnames were very different.
![Eminem - Fuel (feat. JID) [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t5H_CewqpKA/mqdefault.jpg)
Marina completely missed the point of the subtitles issue. It's not about people who prefer to watch with subtitles but people who feel they have to because THEY CAN'T HEAR WHAT IS BEING SAID. Maybe the sound mixers should put more work into their 'beautiful sound mixes' to MAKE SURE IT IS AUDIBLE to people who don't have as good hearing as they have and then guess what: more people will listen to their 'beautiful sound mix'! It's such an arrogant position to take that their wonderful artistry somehow trumps the practical requirement to make the sound accessible to a wide audience in the most mainstream genre of all: film and TV! What makes them think that their farts sound so good I want to spend an hour struggling to make out dialogue that is being drowned out by the sound of them.
And I’m sure this is more of a recent thing! If I’m watching an older show or film, there’s never any need for subtitles, but anything newer and I have to turn the volume up to 300 for dialogue only to be deafened by music and sound effects.
Agreed! Absolutely ridiculous that she just jumped straight to blaming it all on the younger generation. She completely missed there’s actually a very good reason why we can’t hear dialogue in recent movies/shows well anymore - there is a *very* good video called Why we all need subtitles now by Vox that explains this
@@cazstrife8635I will watch that video soon but here's my take on it.
I think it's two contributing factors, 1, most streaming platforms seem to be releasing movies and series with default audio set to 5.1 surround. Majority of people are not listening on surround sound systems so the centre channel gets lost in translation.
2, Modern flat screen tv's simply sound awful, there just isn't the space within the panel to create a quality sound.
@@cazstrife8635 Eh? She specifically cited The Wire. That is perfect tv that is utterly legendary and is 20+(?) years old now. That didnt need subtitles when it was gaining its accolades and doesnt need them now. But apparently english people people struggle with english/american language now. This i find sad.
Another factor is that younger people are more likely to be living in houseshares or flatshares; even if fortunate enough to live on their own, they most likely have people above and below them or at the very least to the side of them and too many buildings have incredibly thin walls, ceilings and floors, so they have to be very conscious of noise levels so as not to disrupt their neighbours.
Modern programmings tendency to lurch from very low dialogue to very loud other sounds within the program and/or adverts being several settings louder than the program means that rather than fumbling with the volume control all the time, just setting it at a level that the loudest bits are acceptable and muddling along with sub-titles the rest of the time.
Of course you can watch/listen with headphones, but wildly lurching volume isn't good in that situation either, so back to subtitles it is to preserve your ear drums.
Yes, Marina manages to spectacularly and unsympathetically miss the point.
No it's definitely the background music/noise that's getting louder. And all shows are getting darker. I don't need a realistic night if I can't see anything that's happening.
I have 'Cookie Bite' hearing loss, Even though I use bilateral hearing aids I still cannot hear dialogue on many films and TV programmes. I barely watch anything these days. Subtitles are helpful for some but I find they are distracting and they appear then disappear before I have finished reading them.
Seriously I can't see the point of TV programmes anymore.
I tried using headphones to spare my neighbour but there doesn't appear to be a outlet for the jack
“They accused him of stealing 18,000 shopping trolleys” 💀
The sound mixer hasn’t done “beautiful work” if you can’t hear the dialogue!
Netflix (and lots of youtubers) are terrible for putting music over the top of talking (sounds like that). On Netflix documentaries, the music is sometimes really pumping, like from an action movie and I can barely hear what they're saying despite adjusting the settings. I've lost count of the number of documentaries I've bailed on within 5 mins. I just can't be arsed battling through it.
Majority of people use subs because they feel they need to, not because it's a lifestyle choice.
Combo of sound design, flat screen tv's having rubbish sound properties and most streaming platforms broadcasting content in 5.1 surround by default means people are losing the centre channel (speech) in the mix.
I've found using a sound bar +changing the audio format to 2.0 makes it easier to hear people's voices.
Thank you so much for answering my question! Great answer - now I understand those "airport editions" of books and will definitely be checking that shelf more carefully next time, for new releases!
I bought all the DVD box sets of The Wire back in the day - I bought them annually, as they were released - and for the first two seasons I watched with subtitles. I initially started out without the subtitles, but I was losing too much of the dialogue, I just couldn't make it out; so I turned on the subtitles. But at some point it was like a switch flipped in my brain, and I suddenly found that I could effortlessly understand it. So from season 3 onwards, and all subsequent rewatches, I did not use subtitles - I didn't need them anymore. Marina, you're fabulous, and that's a lovely top you're wearing, but it is FINE to watch The Wire with subtitles, particularly when first starting with the show.
Audio processing disorder is common with ADHD and autism. It's not hearing impairment, it's that your brain is slow at processing what it's hearing. If you can't take notes and listen at the same time, that's audio processing disorder. For some people they can't process conversation at pace. This Is why people who can hear will also use the subtitles.
I'm an example of the former and my kid is an example of the latter, so we watch things with subtitles on. But subtitles are incredibly unreliable. I call it "The Haughty Courtyard Problem" after a bad subtitle from Rosemary and Thyme. I've gotten in the habit of correcting the subtitles automatically as it happens very often that they are wrong in a way that you couldn't guess what the actual subtitle is. Or they are wrong but still make sense and so you miss the set up for a joke or a call back. I am also annoyed that the subtitles don't respect comedic timing, there's no reason they couldn't.
The example that really gets me is Miranda. There were a ton of mistakes in the normal dialogue (I watched on BritBox) but they took the time to make sure Sally Phillips's lines were transcribed perfectly.
*This* is the problem with subtitles that people who can hear the dialogue should be talking about.
I watch everything with subtitles on because I often find it hard to understand or hear people. Especially in some things, the soundtrack is so much louder than the dialogue. I wonder if newer TV speakers are impacting the sound?
Just like thinner and thinner keyboards tend to fail more and be worse to type on, thinner and thinner TVs make it harder to have good speakers. A pixel doesn't need much depth, but speakers need some space to bounce air around.
Re Subtitles - 98 % of those who have a home cinema setup (3.1 ie most audiobars, 5.1, 7.1, Dolby Atmos etc. ) have either failed to set it up properly with a mic in your seating position or connected the TV wrong to the amp. or some combination of this. If the center speaker is not by far the loudest speaker whatever you are watching then it is setup wrong. Also most decent people in apartments, who don't use headphones tend to turn down the volume as a courtesy to the neighbors. Hence lots of use for subs.
As a Norwegian I feel like the subtitle takes here are very British/ English. Norwegian television has long had the tradition of having subtitles in Norwegian on their shows. In stead of dubbing (like a lot of other countries do). The increase of subtitles on Norwegian tv was in great part fought forward by the Norwegian deaf community. It had made television and news more accessible.
Subtitles have made television with different dialects and languages more accessible. And I find it fascinating that anyone would have an issue with it.
A bit of an English / American take, but if you had been used to consuming tv and movies in a different language than your native tongue, I’m sure you’d appreciate it more.
(Also there are studies suggesting that more people are getting hearing loss, also younger people, so I don’t think the “if you could hear it before you can now” is correct).
Agree 💯!! And I'm tempted to ask them the question "What are your 3 favourite foreign language TV series -- or failing that, could you name three?"😉
Dialogue mixing has gotten worse, because there is more background music.
Yes, it is valid to argue for less happening in the lower part of the screen for anyone that needs subtitles, but that does not mean that it is fine that the dialogue mix is as bad as it is today.
@@TheJonHolstein that could very well be true. I think it’s separate “issues”. I don’t think they make subtitles more available now than they did before because of sound mixing getting worse.
I think maybe the streaming services and others have seen an increase in viewers and viewer retention when movies and shows have subtitles so they keep expanding on it. A lot of shows I could only watch with English subtitles before, now I can watch them with Norwegian subtitles as well.
Only time I take issue with subtitles are when they are integrated in the movie/ show, and the subtitles you put on yourself overlap and you can’t read anything. That is so ridiculous and truly shows that when they make movies they think about an audience like themself, not the people who can’t understand the language and not the hard of hearing. And they assume nobody will put subtitles on.
@@cecilieailinn More native English speakers, use English subtitles, and complain about dialogue, than ever before. That is the whole reason they brought it up. But since native English speakers have gotten used to have to rely on subtitles, they are now more accepting of having to read subtitles on foreign language media.
In general, except for like Godzilla, and a few other Japanese films, the UK and US viewers have rejected dubbing of media, and did not watch it either with dubbing or subtitles. So this is not like the Spanish or the German audience, choosing subtitles over having to see the media with dubbing. This is about native English speakers having to rely on subtitles. By the way, because of how dubbing usually is done, the dialogue it often easier to hear than the original English dialogue.
A lot of cable TV boxes has had support for subtitles in the US, since the 90s. So it is not like they had not had the option. The only thing that might have changed, is those were probably often designed for hearing impaired, meaning that there where additional information in the text, like what song is playing, or if a phone is ringing, and so on. With streaming, there is more often than before an option for regular subtitles.
I'm the family sound engineer. My job is to straddle the volume between dialogue and battle scenes. It's annoying as hell!
😂😂 we have someone with that job in our house too, luckily it’s not me 😊
Not a legal thing, but footballers have received bans for things they said in books. Most notably Roy Keane was banned for 5 games for saying in his autobiography that he intended to injure Alf-Inge Haaland.
and he should have had a lifetime ban from anything football related
Beautiful little contribution Joe thank you
I enjoy the subtitles on RUclips, as even the auto-generated ones can be auto-translated, and give you another source in your target language.
Can we talk about just how fast Marina was with that "this is Miramar" interjection less than a second after Richard said the phrase "top gun?" Even out of context, she nailed it like she had that quip locked and loaded in her pocket and ready to go for years. That's some Lee Mack level fastness.
Yes we can. 😄
Hhhm, not gonna lie, I've been tempted to put subtitles on for TRIE because sometimes Marina's articulation can't keep up with her thoughts.
I have also had a conversation with a Head of Sound (oscar winner) who says he sometimes has difficulty with how actors deliver or are encouraged to deliver dialogue - the set is silent during a take, so actors don't always feel they need to use their voice, and I've also had other actors complaining that they cannot hear their scene partner because they are keeping their voice quiet and 'natural', only projecting as far as they need to for the body mic literally inches from their mouth, rather than to the other character in the scene - worth noting this is rarely an issue in comedies. The sound editor then wants to add in music or background sound that wasn't there during the take, but there is just no meat in the vocal track that can compete. And directors may not want to do ADR, because they liked the quality of the take they chose to use, which they listened to on a silent set through good headphones.
The director has good headphones and an indepth knowledge of the script.
I have to listen to this on RUclips at x0.75 speed
Fun fact: The original 80s version of Shogun never had subtitles for the Japanese parts on purpose
They wanted the viewers to be as in the dark as the main character
That was the best version. The new one is good, but strays from the book to its detriment.
@@jamesmaybrick2001 I agree
I’m 60 - English and I quite often have subtitles on English language dramas and documentaries but not comedy. But I don’t read them all the time… I am fully listening to the sound mix too! (PS I have worked in film and TV as a director for most of my life) I’m not sure why I started having subtitles on… however I watch all my films and TV on a device or computer.
Ireland is not a commonwealth country Richard
Colonial Britain is alive and well 😂
And we do have plenty of hardback books.
I've seen your comment before hearing him say this. I've been put off watching it haha. How can someone, seemingly, so intelligent, be THAT ignorant. Sickens me
Unbelievable that smart people like these guys have such an entitled British outlook, thinking the empire or Commonwealth has any relevance.
Didn't say that Ireland is a commonwealth country. You have conflated two statements.
I was watching Dune 2 recently on my TV and the dialogue was so quiet I had to turn the volume up high to hear it. But as soon as there was action, the music and audio effects were so loud, I had to turn the volume back down. So for 2.5 hours, it was a constant changing of volumes
There's a reason for that. Same recon adverts are so loud.
Basically there's a volume range they can use. If they want a big explosion to sound loud, they have to minimise other sounds so when it explodes you notice it.
Adverts don't meed a range so everything is broadcast at top volume regardless.
Accents and mumbling on the other hand. No excuse.
THE HORROR!!! How did you get over that ordeal? Are you okay now?
Have you got your audio set to 5.1 surround sound but don't have a centre speaker connected?
The discussion about subtitels was also a thing in german tv. The complaint was dialogue-quality. They argued that they mix for cinema or home cinema setups. Problem is: people who watch this sort of stuff rarely have a home cinema setup
I feel tenet was bad everywhere
@@phill6859 Surprised they managed to have this whole segment without a single mention of Chris-to-f***-with-audible-dialogue Nolan.
@@phill6859 - All Nolan films have nonsensically loud music over dialogue. It's one way to distract viewers from how corny the dialogue is.
Did you see RLM's "trailer" for Christopher Nolan's _Twelve Angry Men?_
German Public broadcasters offer a seperate audio track with the dialogue being artificially enhanced for a few years now. Most people would benefit from chosing the stereo track instead of 5.1/7.1 mix already though.
@@frenz20 why is that not thw standard? People who do 0 research arent the one with the 7.1 atmos systems
I'd like to know why so many RUclipsrs and other content creators feel the need to include background music in their videos. It's always intrusive and annoying and makes the videos unlistenable.
Usually because (especially live content) you tube will demoniterise their content if copyrighted music is playing in the background. Some content makers pay for or use their own non copyrighted music to play in the background over the other music, some just talk louder over the music.
@@christopher7212 Yes, that makes sense. But I was really referring to people who simply talk to the camera and place background music on their videos even when there is no original copyrighted media to begin with.
It seems to keep people engaged, and that’s all they really care about. Obviously the biggest issue is rookie editors always putting the music too loud
@@JohnRCWilson they may be worried thier voice is boring or if it generates feedback good or bad it all helps the algorithm probably the latter.
Sometimes due to background noise and reverb in a room that’s not treated (like a studio). Music hides some of that.
Richard - I have a friend who works at the airport and always gets me the airport exclusive of your books! I love the big book but with the soft cover! ❤
Something related to how hard it is hear is dialogue, is that lots of tv shows and the vast majority of modern movies are mixed in surround sound (5.1/7.1). Hence, if you are watching on crappy stereo tv speakers you will have to constantly be adjusting the volume up to hear the dialog and down to when you hear explosions (tv speakers have less dynamic range). This is also part of the reason why people think old movies have clear dialog, these movies were mixed for stereo 2.0 in the first place.
No, that is not the actual reason, because even if you listen in surround, the dialogue mix is still crappy. It comes down to the ego of the director and sound engineer, because they are so familiar with the dialogue that they hear it in the mix, so they add on underscoring that causes frequency clashes.
With surround sound, you still get scenes with explosions and music that is clearly louder than scenes with dialogue, so it doesn't solve the level issue either.
@TheJonHolstein what you're saying is also true, but a surround setup definitely helps. But yeah, there is a degree of artistic intent. I think Nolan said that for Dunkirk, he intentionally did not want the dialog to be clear. Then is also the style of mumble dialog that some actors use (True detective) in contrast to classic Hollywood style, which is influenced by clearer speech of theatre.
@@TheOfficialEmirati It may be less worse, I'm not used to using TV speakers. It clearly is an issue with surround system as well.
I think tv audio is just mixed terribly for tv speakers. I watch tv on my computer with earphones all the time and the audio is great. If I take the trip downstairs and watch something on the tv, the dialogue gets drowned by the music and action.
I have a surround system and haven't had any issues. Doctor Who used to get comments about the music drowning out the dialogue and that only appeared to affect those with standard TV speakers. Others had no issue.
@@Elwaves2925 Funnily enough, I've watched doctor who on tv since it came back in 2005, when Jodie Whittaker started and the entire production seemed to change, it was the first time i ever had a problem with the audio mix. We got a speaker to fix it but still it wasn't near as good as earphones+computer. These days its not as bad as it was, but it it's not as great as it was before that either. It shouldn't take a surround system to be able to comfortably watch telly. That's the kind of thing that's supposed to be additive, not required.
@@rextitan You may be the exception to the rule then, most comments I read were about Murray Gold's score, even though it wasn't his fault. Oddly, I found the theme music for Jodie's era to be really quiet compared to the rest of the episode. As it was only the theme it wasn't an issue.
Thin TVs = no space to bounce air around = crappy speakers.
This was my thought too. I still have the main TV hooked up to an old fashioned amp and surround speakers which both provide the full width of dynamic range to separate out all the sounds, and enable you to adjust the EQ to suit different types of shows and sources. I suspect many/most viewers these days, especially the young, are watching on small streaming devices with little soundbars, or on huge TV sets but with only the internal speakers which blast tinny sound out the back into the wall, meaning you only hear the muddy reflected sound. I'm not surprised it frustrates sound designers and mixers so much to hear complaints, they're artists in their own right and expected by studios to produce the highest quality output, yet the audience is watching on mobiles and tablets and 4K TVs with stunning visuals but crap speakers. The blame lies as much on the device makers to not sell to customers how to get the full experience from them, eg. bundling with quality headphones.
Subtitles are needed because film and tv makers feel the need to batter you with sound as an easy to ramp up the emotions of the audience. Its one of the reasons i stopped going to the cinema because you cant adjust the volume like you can at home.
We've got subtitles on because action scenes or specific moments are so loud that we can't hear the dialogue... Sounds like the sound mixers are the ones who could actually change the situation...
But also, my 8yr old is subtitles on all the time
I had this problem for ages. I found that on most programmes, I had to have my TV on so loud just to hear the dialogue. Then I discovered a 'prioritise voice' setting on my TV, and it made a huge difference. So yeah, it's definitely something to do with the mixing, not just a young people thing. Having said that, social media has become a subtitles-always-on environment because you're often watching in a noisy environment, so I guess most young people are just used to it now.
And do you think that, in such a situation you _would_ be able to hear people talking clearly? Maybe you're not _supposed_ to hear the dialogue very well. Maybe that's kind of the point.
I mean, it _could_ be just bad mixing (or bad TV speakers), but if "a specific moment is so loud", maybe that's intentional. Same thing when characters whisper.
I wonder if some people complained that Alien's spaceship wasn't properly lit and made the monster hard to see. 😉
My work is practical and I watch as I work so I can't use any subtitles because I'm watching what I do. Podcasts, easy to watch tv, stand up comedy, musical performances are great but nothing too quiet and nothing where I would need subtitles. I know I am one of many. There are often posts where someone is asking what to watch as you work. So take heart sound people you still have an audience.
Just found this great show…great to be able to binge watch. I does annoy me that I am up and down with the volume on programmes. Turn it up for dialogue and then music suddenly blares out at a ridiculous level or an incredibly loud fight scene happens and I have to turn it down…..also my tv likes to tell me…next time ask Alexa to turn up or down…I am definitely looking for dialogue boost …thank you for the heads up.
I loved the accents and speech in The Wire. For me it’s like Shakespeare, it’s poetry. You have to concentrate and learn, you have to take time to understand the words and the rhythm of the language. It’s a beautiful thing.
The thing with The Wire is you can hear a whole conversation, not be able to make out a single word, and at the end you still know exactly what they meant. 😁
@@RFC3514 I remember many years ago, watching a TV show based in Glasgow, and it was subtitled because they were worried that us English wouldn't understand it. As a joke, some Scots programs started subtitling English characters.
You wanted to be in the game, right? Now you're in the game.
Like Shakespeare? That gave me a real belly laugh!
@@MrRhurbarb yeah, it’s poetry. Not all the characters, but especially people like Omar and Proposition Joe speak with beautiful poetic language and structure. Avon too, has some wonderful lines.
'You only gotta f*ck up once.
Be a little slow, be a little late. Just once.
And how you ain’t gon' never be slow? Never be late?
You can’t plan for no sh1t like this, man.
It’s life.
Yeah, it scares me.'
That’s beautiful writing.
Also regarding crime confessions, Kim Woodburn was investigated after confessing in her book about burying her stillborn baby
How Clean Is Your Womb
Trade paperback is the worst possible edition of a book. Would you like the impractical size of a hardback without the hard supporting cover of one so it flops around like a paperback and is more expensive? My god, do I?!!
Subtitles are interesting, living in Flanders, Belgium, most of our entertainment was subtitled when I was growing up (movies in the theatre were subtitled both in Dutch and French...). I never thought twice about it, however, when my English became good enough to turn subtitles off, I realized how much more details I was able to observe. To the point I can't go back, because I hate anything on top of the screen.
@@Robalogot But do you watch any Japanese, Turkish, Korean or Scandi dramas? This entire podcast is Anglo-centric!
"Dialogue boost" should definitely NOT be on by default. I would only use it if you are having problems watching a particular programme, then turn it off when you have finished.
Some TV programmes are rendered much worse with artificial boosting. See also "noise reduction" and "picture mode". My friend's brand-new High Definition TV looked like blurry VHS, until we took the TV off the "warm" setting.
The guys who sprung George Blake from Wormwood Scrubs wrote about it in a book. They were later charged AND tried. But the Jury chose to find them not guilty as they sympathised with why they did it!!
15 mins in, Marina mentioned about subtitles“The Irony is… something or other..” but the real irony is that on listening to the podcast on Spotify in the car, Marinas voice is so loud but Richard’s is so quiet that I need audio subtitles 😊
I just learned about 'trade paperbacks', they are common in Australia. Richard's books are all released as TPs.
Thank you for validating my opinion on audio. My wife and I have a 10 year age gap and occasionally argue over the TV volume. We sometimes use Subtitles but this detracts, as Marina pointed out, from the visual production. I thought that audio was the forgotten technology with TV since the focus on flat screens and HD and 4k has moved audio to the low priority pile. Unfortunately, using the voice focus setting will push all the other audio to the background unless you have a theatre surround sound system. I pity sound engineers as they have to compromise between the Dolby Atmos users and those using a Chinese no brand with £2 speakers and compress the audio into a muddle.
I'm not going against anyone that has issues but I've never had a problem, although I do have a reasonable surround system. One of the fandoms I'm part of used to get regular mentions of audio issues with each new episode. That was about the music drowning out the dialogue sometimes. The divide between those with a problem, and those without, seemed to clearly be those with standard TV/computer speakers and those with surround or headphones. So it does seem like the issues come from mixing the full sounds down to stereo.
@@Elwaves2925 NO. Even with surround equipment, the dialogue mix is crappy. It may be more audible, but it is far from clear enough. Crappy TV speakers, will not help. But it all comes down to the director and the sound engineer being way to familiar with the dialogue, thus overpowering it with underscoring that causes frequency clashes, but they still think it is audible, because they know exactly what is being said.
At least DTS:X came with dialogue lift feature as an option. But many directors rejected the idea, because they felt it hampered with their vision.
Atmos does not even has that feature as an option, which is bad.
@@TheJonHolstein When did I say crappy TV speakers would help? I don't have any audio problems with my surround system and you don't get to state otherwise.
@@Elwaves2925 I have tried several of surround system, and I got one. No, they don't solve the issues. If you think it does, then I am sorry, you ar wrong. Dialogue mixing is really poor. And surround systems don't solve that. If you think it does for you, great for you. But the over all issue not solved that way. The issue comes from poor mixing, and way too much underscoring, with frequency clashing. And not from everyone using crappy TV speakers.
Making TVs thinner actually made speakers significantly _worse._
If it was just "shitty mixes", as some people seem to think, then older material would still sound great, and a lot of it doesn't (if you play it through TV speakers). Switch to good headphones (ex., DT-250s, which are very neutral and a favourite of studio mixers - though not very comfortable to wear for long periods) and suddenly you can hear both very loud and very quiet things much better.
Most audio seems to be terrible.
For comparison, I watch this podcast on RUclips on my TV with the volume at 10. Perfect.
With the 73 Yards episode of Doctor who, I was frantically switching from 45 when there was dialogue, to 6 when there was action.
It was offensive.
23:43 did he just imply that Ireland is in the commonwealth? 😅
comicon question made me think of Galaxy Quest,,smiles
Yes
They missed one of the main problems with dialogue. On Netflix, the default sound setting is usually surround. Most people don't have this. If you change it, you can often hear the dialogue again. You're welcome.
Because TV sound mixers are - mostly - terrible at their only job. We don't want subtitles, we're just forced to use them.
Would love a follow-up on Q1 about rap music. Half the genre is bragging about crimes, but would that be given the benefit of the doubt legally, as it's sort of what someone has to do to have a successful rap career?
Drill music lyrics specifically has been used as supporting evidence in trials but not afaik the main evidence or reason for prosecution.
No, some of us just genuinely have a hard time understanding/hearing what some people say. I never watch a film or show with distractions, and now and then someone will just sound like they have mush mouth to me. Not everyone speaks clear as a bell chime, sadly. They can be fantastic talents but their accent or just how they were mixed is off to some ears.
Its the same with music for me, back when I listened to any of it with any regularity. I could not for the life of me make out 90% of what people are singing, even Queen songs, now and then I'll be befuddled by our sweet angel Freddie.
"You hear this all the time in gameshows as well..." - wait, what? I need more details, what have I been missing! lol
With things like the Chase i always feel like the "we cant let you go away empty handed" donation to the charities, helps. Since it becomes more about how much they get rather they get rather than if they are going to get money.
should always be the public, sick of seeing the clique on every freaking programme
Watch Richard's appearance on Catchphrase.
I'm not joking the other 2 contestants had something like 4-700 quid and Richard had thousands in the bank 😂
He wiped the floor with them, even when he obviously waited for them to get it and buzz in.
Some charities need better celebrities is the message.
Richard says subtitles show how many times he says 'errr....' well since he mentions it, it's more like I how often he (and Mariana too) say 'you know'. Anybody else noticed? This is a very irritating tic at such frequency. No I don't know, that's why I am listening to what they have to say and even if I know, I am suspending my knowledge in that moment in time. Punctuating one's speech with constant 'you know's' actually denotes a lack of confidence a shrink once told me as in 'don't listen to me, you know it yourself'. Sorry if you can't unhear it after reading this!
I watch a tv show on Disney+ with my wife, I always have to switch the TV sound to use the tv speakers, instead of the expensive surround speakers otherwise she can’t hear the dialog. I have to admit, the dialog is clearer, and I feel that’s because the music in scenes is more subdued.
Auto-generated subtitles are fine as long as you don't mind the 95% chance that there will be mistakes.
ps - as a one-time bookseller I hate trade paperbacks but what I hate more is publishers changing the format of books during the course of a series. I am thinking particularly (because I can see them on the shelf) of Boris Akunin's Fandorin books of which Weidenfeld published a dozen before getting to The Diamond Chariot which is an inch taller.. This will mean nothing to anyone but it's nice to share 🙂
I can feel your pain!
I have the subtitles on because I have poor hearing but can hear somethings. It does annoy me when I can hear something and the subtitles don’t match and certain words are changed or left out.
I call it "The Haughty Courtyard Problem" after a bad subtitle from Rosemary and Thyme. I left a longer comment already so won't repeat here. But I agree this is the problem we should care about in subtitles first. Once they're of good quality then we can decide if they're annoying.
It isn't necessarily about subtitles, it's about the sound, i'm contstantly having to turn my TV up to hear what the actors/characters are saying. If you watch it on terrestrial TV or with adverts on Amazon Prime and Netflix, you turn the sound up to hear the actors/characters then when the adverts come on you have to turn the sound down because it's way too loud.
Somebody needs to count how many times Richard has described people as being brilliant
A drinking game ? Then possible hospital appointment
@@EastyyBlogspot HaHaHa 🤣😂
@@EastyyBlogspot That would be brilliant....
n+1
By and large, they're all brilliant.
The incentive for the Chasers is that, if the contestants won every time, the show would become very dull very quickly, and the show would be cancelled.
That being said, on celebrity versions where they play for charity, you can tell they're throwing the celebs a few easy chances.
Scar Tissue by Anthony Keidis springs to mind.
Thats good to know. For any particular reason than that you want to tell us what was on your mind at one moment in time?
@@redmed10 Takes 10 seconds to use google and find out. Come on, i reckon you can do it.
Autobiographies where the writer admits committing a crime @@redmed10
In our house we started with the mandatory subtitles about 12-15 years ago with Doctor Who. The dialogue was just so muffled, and the music so loud that it was impossible to enjoy without it. We attributed it to the show being optimised for better home theatre setups than ours.
I use subtitles because I have kids and they like to make it so you can hardly hear your own thoughts.
Something that others have touched on in these comments as well: Marina and Richard don't mention whether screen and speaker technology has an effect on perceived audio quality and picture quality. Along with inaudible dialogue, another common complaint is scenes which are too dark to see what is happening. It seems to me that it can't be a coincidence that this has coincided with the wide availability of screens that can display HDR, especially Dolby Vision and HDR+, OLED screens capable of almost true black, and soundbars which don't take up a lot of room but can support Dolby Atmos and other surround sound formats. I just assumed that productions were increasingly optimising their shows for these higher end devices. I must admit that when I invested in a better TV the "scenes-too-dark-to-see-what-is-going-on" problem went away. Any chance Richard and Marina could address this in a follow-up?
The dialogue mix is mostly crap even with surround equipment, so that one does not come down to the technology. it comes down to the ego of directors and sound engineers. They know the dialogue, so they can hear it clearly, even when the scene is underscored with music with frequency clashes.
The issue with too dark scenes is nothing new. Perhaps it has gotten worse as TV series are produced more like films, so they use the same kind of processes.
Sony and Bose offer dialogue boosting. It does help in some busy series which have additional sounds and music . I do think it's easier to listen on the TV with this compared to a phone or tablet where I might turn on subtitles in some cases as the shows I play there are often background noise where I want to be able to catch up if I am distracted or lose focus on the voices.
Often in EU countries there are more films shown with subtitles. It can be distracting if you're watching a VO of a film in English and are decently proficient in English. However you do learn to ignore them after awhile, especially if you've grown up with this being the norm.
I tried to watch pingu but the subtitles didn't help.
I had the same problem, back in the day, with The Plank.
The sound mixes have got worse. Ironically because over all home systems are much better. Sound mixers used to listen to final mixes through terrible domestic screens/speakers in order to make sure people at home with the worst equipment could hear clearly. Now they seem to assume that everyone has home cinema sound and mix for that. The home cinema enthusiast are very vocal compared to their actual number... "Hollywood" have fallen for this too, and often mixes have very loud explosions and gunfire, and very soft dialogue in order to emulate how loud these effects would be. The result is if you attempt to listen at a reasonable volume, you have to have a remote in hand turning up and down every few seconds.
I heard that in the past, nearly all dialogue was "looped" ie re-recorded in a studio studio after filming, because the sound technology just wasn't good enough to use the audio captured while filming, ie with the mics far away off screen and people moving around etc. But today it is mostly possible to keep that audio and so they do, but it still isn't as clear as looped dialogue. Not sure if this is correct or exaggerated but it seems plausible.
Did Marina just nail the intro?
I'm too lazy to scroll the comments to see if this has been mentioned, but in the US the trade paperback edition of books comes out between the releases of the hardcover and mass-market paperback versions.
As a superannuated professional actor most of whose career has been spent on the stage (rather than in film or TV), I would also blame the contemporary obsession with naturalism. In a theatre one needs to be capable of reaching the back wall; this involves the enunciation of consonants, and paying attention to a good vocal technique. This is not naturalistic, but audiences soon dirsregard the artificiality. TV claims that naturalism is a virtue (!), so actors are encouraged to leave it all to the sound guy and the director. I would advocate greater sympathy with the audience.
Best film blooper reels.
Pixar. Fully animated amazing.
Modern slimline TVs have less space for decent speakers
Totally disagree about the sub titles - not concentrating?? Total BS.
I use them a lot but only for some programs, often well shot 'moody' dramas. Sometimes even having seen the subs and knowing what they are say, when you re-wind to check, it's IMPOSSIBLE to figure it out just from the sound, it's not just about the relative volume.
I've got a 7.1 system which separates the speech from the background noise
Richard’s book series on The Thursday Murder Club are simply the best of it’s genre. I’m about to start the 1st of his latest series “We Solve Murders”. I’d love to see a series on Apple adapting “Thursday” but understand the difficulties in casting a gang of elderly actors with the intention of filming multiple seasons. Probably end up with a simplified movie that doesn’t do justice to the novel 🤦🏻♂️
Funny about the dialogue issue. I often find that Marina mumbles, although, not in this episode. And years ago I had to give up on The Wire, even though I really wanted to watch it because I couldn't understand much of the dialogue, regardless of which character was speaking. I know my hearing isn't great so I thought it was just me but several friends, with better hearing, have said the same thing. Also, even if the volume is turned up it seems to be muffled and as if it's being spoken under a pillow. The comments about insufficient speaker systems in flat screen TVs seems to make sense. I hadn't thought of that before
The great thing about RUclips us that you can change the speed you watch videos at. I always have to watch channels like this one at 0.75 speed at they gabble too quickly
@@ellie698 thanks for this advice
@@nixpuk75
You're very welcome 🙂
I started using sub titles when I was watching the series Karen Piri. I missed so much because of the Scottish accent.
How could I possibly be looking at a second screen and reading subtitles at the same time?
On trade paperbacks: I’m going to start with I don’t know if this is still true, but this was true in Canada in the early 2000’s. Trade paperbacks were a part of the publishing cycle for books, especially from well established authors. It would go hardcover when the book was released & was the most expensive, after the book had been out a year it was time for the trade paperback & that could 5 to 10 dollars cheaper & then another year & you get your 10 paperback & then the paperback became the book the store would stock.
I am told Matthew McConaughey is a great actor. I have no idea if he is or not as I've never been able to understand him. Without subtitles he might as well not take a speaking role. Has anyone, like me, thought he hasn't bothered to learn his lines?
Re Subtitles you didn't deal with WHY we want subtitles! Dialogue on movies and TV has become far harder to understand. You talk about sound mixes being miffed because the public are missing out on their lovingly crafted audio mix, yet someone should tell them to pull their finger out and make the dialogue audible! And whilst we are at it, tell actors to talk clearly too. Finally, sorry Mariana, but you gabble and swallow words! Love you really.
I have subtitles on all the time when watching TV drama because otherwise neither I nor my partner can hear enough of the dialogue. I would assume our hearing is not as good as it was, but the only time we're aware of it is when watching TV so our hearing can't be that bad. Dialogue boosters don't really help. As a general rule, the more sophisticated the sound the harder it is to hear the dialogue - I have no difficulty hearing what is said on this video for example. If filmmakers don't want us to use subtitles they need to make dialogue more audible,
The dialogue issue is keeping me away from the cinema. It's never high enough up in the mix especially if your local cinema has too much bass on.
It would be great if there was a Marina Hyde bi-weekly Guardian column convention for us fans, I'd be there!
RUclips do have a transcript. I use it when I watch “Wander with Mac”. I can’t understand Scottish accent 😊
/*Sometimes, not always. Uploaders don't always enable them, automatic subtitles can detect the wrong language, can't detect it with background music, etc.
Set the volume so it's not too loud during the loud parts and the dialogue will be too quiet. Turn it up to hear the dialogue and you'll have to turn it down again when the explosions start. Put the subtitles on and the volume can be set at a good level and you'll still understand the dialogue.
About the subtitles, as someone who learnt English as a second language, I regularly switch on subtitles just to understand what was said. Too often I have problems with thick dialects or Advents, laughtracks or other loud background noises and actors mumbling through their script. So it's helpful for me to rewind the scene and read the subtitles to be onboard. But yes, soundmixing or elocution have become poorer, maybe both.
I don't quite get Richard's point that the visually impaired get left behind on subtitles. It is true, as long as you imply an unknown language or some form of visual gags. But that's nothing new, and on the other hand you have the hearing impaired who can't participate without subtitles. Last I checked that has been true forever.
I am curious, where I live the public broadcasters occasionally offer special audio tracks for visually impaired people, describing characters and actions between the dialogue. Is there something like that in the UK?
Audio is mixed so poorly on series and films currently that I use subtitles just so as to not get deafened by sfx while straining to hear dialogue.
I’m 54 now. I had to start watching with subtitles a few years ago when show music would drown out the actors. Doctor Who was horrible with this.
Subtitles, OMG, hate them. Any YT channel that does not make them optional I ban from my feed. My other issue is this mad trend for putting white text - like actual Titles, credits, narrative notes like locations etc - on light or white backgrounds! WTF, don't they want us to read them?
sorry richard but your scientifically acurate statement that as you age your hearing gets worse was shot down straight away :) love this podcast
I have finally managed to get subtitles turned off on the tv ( partner now has hearing aids) and it’s bliss. They drove me mad
I often have to rewind tv shows to hear what they’re saying and I still don’t get it therefore I have to turn the subtitles on. I wouldn’t agree that it’s because we’re more distracted therefore we are concentrating less.
Why is a great acting performance if you can’t recognise the actor because of the make up? Colin Farrell in The Penguin could be any male actor.
I have to use subtitles in any action film because the dialogue is just mumbling interspersed with ear splitting explosions/shoot outs/ car chases. If I modulate for the speech it’s impossible to tolerate the sound of the action.
One of the problems with dialogue is that there seems to be a trend for actors to whisper in the most odd places. Sure, if you're telling a secret but there are so many examples where we, the audience are going eh? what? In the truly terrible 'Battle of Los Angeles' Aaron Eckhart is whispering to a fellow soldier in a humvee in a war zone! Worse still and I'm sorry but Rebecca Ferguson going into whisper mode mid sentence countless times in the Mission Impossible Films. No one, no one, talks like that. STOP WHISPERING!!
Why when I’m watching a drama of one genre or another that the incidental music rises in volume until the dialogue is obscured. Is this to do with the format or platform the drama is being watched upon?
no no no, we're not 'reading television', the subtitles are there for a quick reference if you misshear/cant hear the dialogue, there is a knack to it where you're taking in the whole screen and subconsciously reading the subtitles. It doesn't take up all of your concentration if you're used to it.
We have subs on so we dont have to keep turning the adverts down in the break.
Has anybody noticed how alike Richard is to Rolf Harris??😮
When I start playing a new game I turn all the volume to about 70% and put the dialogue up to max and then usually end up putting the subtitles on anyway. If I'm watching TV and the dialogue audio is no good, I usually just find something else to watch. I'm 44. Never had an issue hearing quiz shows but a lot of dramas recently seem to have terrible sound quality so I just don't bother. I think the BBC was the worst for it but at least they don't suddenly switch to ad (at normal volume) when your sound is 4 times higher than it should be.
Who thought the 2 shot with Richard's hand waving about in front of Marina was a good idea?
I know right!
Richard's massive have and arm waving in and out of shot, obliterating vision of Marina.
For heaven's sake people, sort it out
I find I have to use subtitles (I hate them) on Film 4. The sound on their channel is awful. It is muted and muddy except in the adverts which are always clear and LOUD! To give an idea of what I mean I usually have the tv volume set to 35-45 but for Film 4 I need to use 75+ and it’s still not loud enough. It is infuriating. I’ve tried every setting on my tv but it make very little difference. I’ve asked them about it on social media numerous times but they never respond.
I started subtitles on an english language show with Game of Thrones, mainly because i couldn't understand how people were related to each other, and the surnames were very different.