I made the wood ash varnish. I just put all the ingredients in a big pot and cooked it all the entire process. When i got the proper string length, I then let it cool to a safe temperature and filtered it. I left all the gunk in the pan. Then rewarmed the varnish and turpentine(not hot) and mixed it together. It turned out great! Felt like high grade motor oil ,and smelled wonderful.
@@Wolfgang3418 I used pinion pine sap and cold pressed linseed oil mixed with half a shovel of wood ash from my fireplace along with a half-gallon of water. Boiled it till i got a 3-inch length of string using the spoon test. Then mixed the warmed varnish with warmed turpentine (not hot!)
I use the same varnish (inspired by David Ireland) on my violins. It will dry only in UV light. I hang my violins to dry in the sun for 14 days for every layer of varnish. In the winter I use a self build UV cabinet. I sand down with my finest sandpaper (1200) after every layer, and polish with propolis and oil on the last (3rd) layer. It takes time, but is absolutely worth it. I love to watch your videos. Best regards from Norway. Ingar Sørensen
That’s fascinating to me as a dabbler in fine furniture and knifemaking. Do you do anything to slowly further reduce moisture content before putting in the sun? I’m assuming you don’t do it when it’s 80 F and with a dry wind? I would be terrified of warpage.
my grandfather used to make his own varnish, I wish I had asked him to show me how because it was beautiful when he applied it to wood. that was quite a flame! that'd make for a wicked thumbnail lol
All credit to you Jerry for trying something new (old). Not many people in business would spare all that time to devolop their own varnish, hope it works out great for you.
The most you learn by making mistakes. Look at our children. As an adult we often hesitate to do something because of the possibility of making mistakes. I find it wonderful that you take the risk of doing something new which could be a failure. At the end of the day if success or failure you learned something and that counts. I would appreciate hearing of further experiments with varnish.
Hay, the best lessons are learned by doing things and making mistakes. Now many of us will not make the same mistake. I really liked the color of the first trial. I, am wondering if you had added the drying agent to it at that point if it would have maintained the color and still dried better. I would appreciate more videos on varnish. Even experimenting with color in some. Thanks for sharing your experience in doing this first trial. Your honesty is one of the reasons I really like your videos. Please never leave out the things that don't work. They are real teaching experiences that teach us what won't work well for us either.
Thank you, Jerry! You're right; we DO benefit from seeing how Not to do things. And it's no shame for you. Far more mistakes have been made in the pursuit of perfection than have "one and done" procedures. But you insisted on persisting, and came up a success! For a first effort, that's a pretty good one!
Jerry you weren't fooling.... Boom! That was a very interesting video....super glad you're okay. I did look hard in the footage after and it looked like you still had your real eyebrows. Thanks so much for sharing.
Hello, I made the varnish or lacquer after Roger Clark down here in the comments. My first trial with error, but maybe some usefull hints for somebody. I took 150g raw linseed oil together with 50g of fir resin (cleared by heat, melted through a 150µm mesh) and sieved wood ash from beechwood, same volume as the oil and one liter of rainwater. This mixture cooked lively for 4 hours and stood to cool down. The above layer of varnish looked nearly black and was applied to a glas plate. It cured within two days in cold darkness. Maybe faster in sunlight. A thin layer has a reddish brown. Not so bad so far. Adding lime isn't nescessary since wood ash contains 50% of quicklime.
In my experience, the alcohol type varnish dries super fast and requires high quality fan brushes and you must be super fast in applying the warm varnish, otherwise you get streaks. The oil varnish type you are using takes up to a week or more to dry and a few weeks to cure, when mixed right it will get hard enough to buff out. I used an empty closet and hung the fiddles with news paper covering on the floor. It is definitely an art that I have not mastered. The old Italian varnishes had beatles and flower pedals ground up in the mixture. Keep going, your an inspiration to many tubers. Thumbs up!
Just ran across your video. Curious if you've given varnish making another go. I can say the reason your varnish didn't set is because you added the extra oil to it. Linseed oil and turpentine. What makes the oil set quickly is the oil content being polymerized by the heat. The temperature of the oil has to reach at least 430 degrees to become polymerized. So your original mix reached those temperatures. But the added oil was only heated to water boil temperature, 210 degrees. Not nearly enough to polymerize the added oil at all. Hence the slow drying. If you had just added turpentine to thin your original, thick varnish you would have had exactly what you wanted. But great going! And I too have had the surprise fun of bursting an oil resin mix into flames. Learned a new lesson. There are levels of flame. There's fire... and then, there's FIRE. Oil. Resin. Turps.... those things burn REAL good. Talk about a robust, wicked flame.
Mr. Rosa... That was great! fire and all! After all is said and done, what you ended up with is sorta what the old masters called a medium. 1/3 Damar varnish, 1/3 turp, and1/3 linseed oil. I thought you did great. Thinkers make their stumbling stones stepping stones.
Intereting experiment. Dammar resin also known as frankincense, disolves in pure turpentine, no heat. If you need to add rosin then use a double boiler to melt the rosin, do not put on direct heat. You need to strain the dammar as it may have tree particles in it. I wrap my dammar in cheese cloth and then submerge in the turpentine. Dammar base varnish takes up to 2 weeks to dry. I use dammar/ turps 1:1. Once disolved strain ans add up to 50% extra turps. You can add linseed oil later. Good luck
Such fun watching, comments and humor included! You probably know by now but I’ve heard that oil varnishes are supposed to dry for weeks. It’s amazing because you don’t seem to need a sealant on the wood, probably mostly the alcohol based varnishes need egg white sealant or some other sealant.
Traditionally Damar Varnishes take many days to even lose any tackiness, and weeks to have any measurable hardness of finish. I'm an oil painter and a former art materials tradesman, so I'm very certain of my drying times when dealing with the layered film your applying. Had it been cut with some more turpentine to a thinner consistency it will dry far faster, but require an additional coat or two. Damar Garnishes are usually considered dry enough after 120 days, since the film created must slowly evaporate the turpentine through the solids in the resins used. Your darker color may well have been caused by the oxidation resulting in the combustion of the fixture while mixing, but some thought must be given any impurities in the resin materials as well. Hope you find the sweet-spot your looking for with experience. Very best wishes my friend.
Jerry, I am seriously not an expert but from my violin making classes, one of the tutors did make his own varnish and the other was a seriously expert oil varnisher (Chris Beament from Cambridgeshire UK). The one thing that I leant from Chris, and understand is that all pine-resin varnishes must be put in a 'black-light' / UV cabinet for a couple of days for each coat that is applied. The UV light cures the varnish. In Cremona, they used to hang their violins out in the sun for days to cure. It is also my understanding that the oil varnish never truly ever fully cures even when hard to the touch. Some say it can take up to 50 years to cure fully. The process that we were taught was to apply the varnish with upstrokes to stop it running, UV cabinet for a few days, take it out level with 400 grit lubricated with a few drops of linseed oil (to get rid of the sparkles) - wipe down with kitchen towel, apply the next coat, back in the UV cabinet etc., etc. Probably about four or five coats. Be interesting to see if this helps you. Without the UV light, it will never cure.
What's weird is I've used oil varnish before. Haider sign was the brand. It always cured in just a couple of days and I never had any problem. Unfortunately that brand is not available anymore. I did apply the varnish I made to a mandolin just this morning. It went on absolutely beautiful. I couldn't believe how nice it went on. And it really look beautiful. I did hang it in a confined area with a UV light. So I think everything is good.
@@RosaStringWorks Just wondering. After all oil varnish comes in many forms with different chemistry and some have special chemical hardeners added. So, some do cure by air but my understanding is that pine resin requires UV light to chemically change it, locking the polymers. I am no chemist but that is my understanding. Be interesting to me if any viewers are chemists and can explain it more fully.
I think what you say is true for a varnish that is maximal transparent. If it can be a bit on the brown side, it's much easier, and I achieved a varnish, that cured within two days without UV.
Thank you for this video, I learned a lot. Thanks for keeping in the part about the turpentine, it is actually very useful to see that. Someone probably mentioned this already, sorry if I'm repeating anyone. The other videos I've watched on this process say to rub in the varnish onto the instrument. It looks like each layer is rubbed in and allowed to soak and dry into the wood. Brushing it on probably makes it too thick.
Your first batch was perfect. You need to apply it very thinly. You need to push it around with a very stiff brush or dab it with your finger. Then, very importantly, you need to put it in the sun, the direct sun for just 1 hour and it will be almost dry.
Dear Mr. Jerry, a thought just occured to me. I have had good luck with using clear nail polish on violin bridges. Why not just use clear nail polish. Ididnt use any thinners. Use direct from the bottle. Sets up in about 20 minutes. Drys hard in 6 to 8 hours cures overnight. Ive had the clear nail polish on my violin bridge since last summer. Ive played my violin and it sounds sweet. If you did need to thin it down I would add a couple drops of acetone. I personally think its best to apply full strength but you have to work fast and in well ventillated room. I believe its called nitrocellulose lacquer.but not sure. The thing i like is it drys in only several hours. Hope this helps. Ps make sure room has good fan and open windows lacquer fumes very nasty. If you want a glossy varnish why not flecto varathane? All you have to do is thin it with paint thinner. Sets up over night. Hope this helps.😅
Many years ago (i think 15 maybe) there was a very detailed article on doing this in the Muzzleblast publication from the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. I do remember they made up a "double boiler" to heat the mixture up and used sand as a heating medium between both pots. I think this made the temperature more stable. Try to reach out to them as they used to be great people and would appreciate what your doing. Could also reach out to colonial williamsburg as they also would be into creating these authentic oil based finishes.
I've never tried this before but have researched it when looking for a nitrocellulose lacquer recipe. The varnish is too thick, about twice as thick as it should be. You can thin it with either boiled or polymerized linseed oil or turpentine. With the BLO, you get the Japan dryer. Turpentine has oxidizing properties that can help it dry. Straight linseed oil will take longer to dry since the molecules aren't crosslinked by a polymerization process. Can also try cooking the oil a little less before adding the resin. Oh, some people put it in a large jar and use an aquarium bubble pump to aereate (spelling) the varnish or even the oil prior to boiling.
@@RosaStringWorks oh, some people dissolve the resin into the turpentine and boil it then add with the oil. I think the oil and turpentine mixture has to be within 20° to reduce flashing. Some people pour the oil into the resin mixture but should be done off the heat with a couple of minutes to cool first. I'm trying to remember everything. When I did my research was right after Lawrence McFadden went out of business.
ooh ! ... when doing this you need your pot lid at the ready . . . flash point turp: 86 ~114 (F) . . . one of my first memorable experience(s) in semiconductor de-encapsulation (of epoxy packages 4 failure analysis ) was in a heated pot with solvents, over a hot plate, was not realizing the hot plate's thermostat was a simple bi-metal switch . . . that " occasionally sparked " .... and ignited the fumes ( well below the flash point of the solvent ) ... thanks for the memory!
As a former painter (back in the 80's) I am mildly familiar with Japan dryer and it is a great substance. We would occasionally use it when we needed a finish to dry faster due to the job requirements. As a suggestion I would say NOT to add the dryer to the entire supply. Instead I would advise adding the appropriate amount (dong the math) to a smaller batch that you are going to use immediately. I suspect if added to the entire batch you are going to either have it get overly thick or skin over and then you may be back to not drying. Just a thought....
Thank you VERY much for doing this video. I have been wanting to try making my own varnish from the myriad of recipes I've collected. Some of them are even more dangerous than the one you chose, and seeing the flash from that turpentine was very impressive. I think I'll start with one of the less dangerous ones. Looking at your final product, I'd mix in some more turpentine and thin that batch out a little. Nice color, though, especially on that maple piece. For a first attempt, I think you did just fine. And you've probably inspired a fair number of us violin maker wannabes some inspiration to do this ourselves. Again, thank you VERY much.
Whoops, spoke too soon. I should have known that you'd come up with the solution to the varnish being too thick. Great minds think alike, and US, TOO! One thing to consider, oil varnish will stay soft for months after it's used on an instrument. At least that's what I've read in all the violin building books I've read. That's why the old makers would have a slew of instruments hanging up for a month or two after varnishing. Heron-Allen talks about it taking at least a month. Patience, my friend!
@@RosaStringWorks I'm with you there. I used to find oil varnish at the local Ace hardware, now it's not available. They get us old geezers used to something then take it away. Again. I'm going to have to get myself one of those dual hot plates, I guess... Oh, while I think of it, there are a LOT of other resins besides pine resin one can use, and it seems to me that a lot of people don't use pine because it does take a long time to cure. There are some really good articles on this topic from the Guild of American Luthiers that you might want to check out if you haven't already. But knowing you as little as I do, I suspect you've already memorized them all.
First I want to clarify that I don’t know anything about making farnish, however, I recently read that linseed oil is a drying agent used in oil based paint. Japan Dryer has three main components - Maganesse, linseed oil and turpentine. Lead my also be a component. I think you were on the right track when you started adding the oil and turpentine. You just need to find a good recipe. Hope you find the right mix for your project. Thanks for another very informative video.
Thank you very much for demonstrating this, and yes I would be grateful if you made more Varnish videos. I’m considering making some varnish at some point and hope to learn from your experiments. At the moment I’m going to use shellac for the ground coat, and follow up with Yacht Varnish, I’ve been looking at dyes for tinting varnish. I might make a video showing the results. At the moment I’m experimenting with different arching on two violins, which I will be showing when their completed to see the effect on sound.
Fascinating experiment. When you said you had added Japan dryers I said Bingo! Lots of good information on varnish in Bob Flexner's columns for Popular Woodworking. One of the points he makes is that "boiled" linseed oil isn't so much boiled as it has drying agents added. If you had used "boiled" linseed oil you might have gotten your result faster but in the end the chemistry would have been the same.
Look in the RW Wilson Majestic Maple stain is for curly tiger Maple flame maple that's what I use on my knife handles for what I did use on my knife handles and I'm going to tell you what Jerry and does a wonderful job on curly tiger Maple and Flame Maple I just thought I'd have a curly wood out there you would love it
I use to do boat work for a living and paint and varnish was in my lexicon. Too thick? I would add Penetrol, a colorless natural oil to thin the paint/varnish out. It did not change the color but did accelerate the drying time and "paintability" of the finish. Also the Japanese Drier would almost do the same thing but it thinned the finish more than the Penetrol.
Put two drops of sinnymold in a beaker, place it with chibble juice, add two fly’s lebbers and a pinch of snovvery and chant the magic words, Abbra Cadaver and eeny miny mocus, then woof all trickly little flames creeping along the tabloid all joined together in fiery fiery! What an awful calafestral!
You might try odorless mineral spirts (OMS) instead of turp. for the final thinning. The varnish should dry faster. Btw, artists oil paints typically take a couple of days to dry and months to finally set. Quicker drying artist paints use alkyd binders. These will dry in a few hours. One brand of alkyd, with no pigment, is Liquin, sold at most art stores. Also, a good art store will stock a number of different varnishes one of which might fill your needs. I really like your videos. Someday, I hope to have my ‘57 Martin repaired.
Quite impressive, thank you for the recipe, and the video. you've picked up a new subscriber. Replacing the resin with gilsonite might make a great Japanning fluid.
When making varnish you have to be very very precise! or it will never dry, you need a perfect recipe and a scale! that being said if you're looking for oil and Damar varnish the easiest route! is your local fine art store, japan dryer etc.. which can be mixed will oil and a little solvent no heat required! I know I have a bachelor in arts! But Jerry! I highly recommend Birchwood Casey True-Oil , it will do exactly what you want and more it's quick! luthiers have all switched to tru-oil for natural finishes. Give that a go I feel you'll be extremely pleased!
@@RosaStringWorks A lot of luthiers have switched to it, it is a mixture of oils. I agree with you on acoustics oils do age better, and help the sound.
Oils don't dry as in a solvent (water, alcohol, etc) evaporates, but polymerize/oxidize, i.e. a chemical reaction takes place which usually just takes a lot of time. Using oil on wood (e.g. furniture), it can take a week to cure a thin layer that has been basically wiped off after shortly after application. The siccatives (japan dryer) do help with the time it takes to dry, but then you're introducing chemicals one may not want to include. There seems to be quite a bit to choosing and preparing the oil as it can be filtered, washed, heated, aired and whatnot (and I'm not an expert on that, I found Edgar Russ's video helpful to understand the oil part better: ruclips.net/video/ZpD251wcFpc/видео.html). And then it can be boiled for a long time before starting to add the resin. I'm not building music instruments, but I want to try give oil and resin varnish a try with some small woodworking projects, so thanks for the insights you share in this video.
Jerry you ain't gonna get away with not giving us some updates on this varnish! I have for years wanted the old masters varnish and you are on the Right Track! Did they have turpentine in Stratovarous's time? What would they have used? I know shellac is very old. I read somewhere they cut the shellac flakes with whiskey or brandy, any spirt they had. Those resins you got may be harder than nitrocellulose. Please, you have to keep us updated on your progress. If this stuff works, you may be on to Something! Love Ya! Thanxz
Turpentine comes from evergreen trees I believe. So I'm sure that was available. Barney's shoes that dilute with alcohol are referred to as spirit varnishes. And I'm not wanting to use those. Actually I did use shellac for the base below the oil varnish. The oil varnish will completely cover the shellac though.
Your varnish recipe will not air dry; it is cured by UV light. Apply in thin coats and expose to sunlight, or UV bulbs. You can make a drying cabinet with some 4 foot fluorescent FL40 BL bulbs. Oil varnish will air dry only if you at a catalyst, some kind of metal or metal oxide (usually toxic) as someone mentions below. Oil varnishes that are UV cured and made without catalysts resist cracking and checking with age better than modern formulations.
I've always dried oil varnish without any UV assistance. Done it for thirty-some years. This particular oil varnish just didn't have any dryers in it. Having said that I have built a UV set up and am currently using that. The oil varnish I made is working very well. But mainly because I put the Japan drier in it.
I think it is just like shellac. You probably need to cut it with white spirit. Yeah playing with flammables in shorts is not recommended. Getting hot oil based products on you will sure spoil your day. When doing experiments like these make notes on what you are doing, so when you get to the right place, you will know exactly how you got there, and so can replicate it. Otherwise you will just have whatever you made, and no idea how to get back there. Oil finish takes a while too dry. The linseed is the problem. It just takes forever to dry. That is the idea. Think oil paint. Use more volatiles, which will flash off easily.
No Stress Jerry, we all make boo boos. And for others it is a really good lesson. Like I taught my boys, Learn from other people's mistakes, you don't have time to make them all for yourself.
Two grown men messing with science "BRILLIANT". Jerry I did notice after the fire you voice did go a little higher hahahahaha. And your comment "Ron + I went to lunch" did you mean to say "Ron + I went to the local A + E", enjoyed the video so much and can we have more of the same featuring "Ron + I"?
Im not an expert at these varnishes either. But I will advise with the string test, it did not get thick enough, your string was around just under an inch, which is 2.5 cm, a good string test is 2 inches or 5 cm, but even longer is better. And also the varnish is supposed to take that long to dry. It takes 3 or 4 days to dry when its outside with good sunlight, it takes UV light to dry. In the summer you just need to sit it out in the sun but during the winter its better to keep it inside under a UV light. And lastly with the color of the varnish, alot of variables go into that, such as the amount of your ashes, the types and amounts of resin or rosin, and the amount of time you reduced your oil. Hope this helps if you still have hopes for these varnishes.
question? why did you not start with boiled linseed oil? i think part of the problem may be the linseed wasnt boiled long enough. second i would have thinned only with turpentine and not added more oil. linseed oil is whats in oil paints so it will take a week or more to dry when ground into a ton of powdered pigment. adding only thinner would increase drying time theorhetically
sorry meant to say adding only thinner should decrease drying time. i am an artist and have dealt alot with linseed and in restoring antique radios/console record players i use varnish,laquer etc. i think once you had cooked it just add thinner like you would thin other clear coats that were too thin, prob give you the lighter tone you wanted too because theres less resin in the varnish mix. i am not a pro varnish maker but tinkering throughout my life makes these educated guesses
Just made mine in the microwave stirring the resin into the Turp after heating, dissolved about 50/50 and added tung oil. Where did your guidelines come from, I wonder..? (its gotta cool before you get a string, then you will) Mine dries in 20 minutes..
My moto practice makes perfect he who knows everything knows nothing it's the same in anything you do believe I've been a panel beater and paint sprayer for 45 years and still learning still make mistakes with new techniques if you dont try you dont know and if it means making mistakes so be it 👍
Thanks, Jer. This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. Would it help in the saturation into the grains if you put it on very warm to slightly hot? Sort of like you did heating it to thin it out in boiling water...
u sure u don't wanna make it extra crispy. and cook it longer. lol. but how would u do it, where it wouldn't flash? like how cool would u need it to b to add the turpentine so it doesnt flash??? but either way that is a pretty color.
If you remove it from the heat source and let it cool just slightly, pouring in the turpentine will not cause a combustion. If you look closely, it flashed because the evaporating fumes hit the heat source (the burner plate) directly and ignited. Turpentine self-ignition temperature is about 250 Celsius or slightly below 500 Fahrenheit. All parts of this varnish are flammable and none of the ingredients should ever come in direct contact with a heat source that is hot enough to start a fire.
Im doing this, shore pine resin. Turp. you dont want too much pine resin, Oxidation is the hardening process. I prefer tung oil..(you dont have to tell us turpentine is flammable man!)
Reminds me of the first time I tried to cook varnish. I think I lost my eyebrows! Linseed based varnish needs strong sunlight to polymerize but it takes much longer than commercial varnish. It can take months to fully varnish a violin.
you know that smoke coming out? if u can get that into a copper mineral, then that will directly add to the varnish. (copper additive varnish.) - "copper linseedate" its a carboxylate mineral.
Check out, wood by wright, he makes his own boiled linseed oil from flax seed oil and has at least one video on it. I am wondering if the oil was not boiled long enough.? Raw linseed takes forever to cure.(don't ask me how I know!)
"It's pretty much finished I believe" LOL!! What color you call that? Burnt Umber? It's too thick to dry. Speaking as someone who has never done it, I wouldn't bother with the oil and just thin it with the turpentine. Turpentine will evaporate, but oil won't.
That type of varnish takes a very long time to drive. If you add Japan drier to it it help speed it up. I am not an expert in it and I am still working on improving the process.
I made the wood ash varnish. I just put all the ingredients in a big pot and cooked it all the entire process. When i got the proper string length, I then let it cool to a safe temperature and filtered it. I left all the gunk in the pan. Then rewarmed the varnish and turpentine(not hot) and mixed it together. It turned out great! Felt like high grade motor oil ,and smelled wonderful.
Hi, gooxl only gives ash wood ... hehe. How did you make that varnish? Any receipes on hand? Thanks a lot!
@@Wolfgang3418 I used pinion pine sap and cold pressed linseed oil mixed with half a shovel of wood ash from my fireplace along with a half-gallon of water. Boiled it till i got a 3-inch length of string using the spoon test. Then mixed the warmed varnish
with warmed turpentine (not hot!)
Prevrdi
Fantastic video. Best I've seen so far. Honest, too the point and funny as well. Really enjoyed this
I use the same varnish (inspired by
David Ireland) on my violins. It will dry only in UV light. I hang my violins to dry in the sun for 14 days for every layer of varnish. In the winter I use a self build UV cabinet. I sand down with my finest sandpaper (1200) after every layer, and polish with propolis and oil on the last (3rd) layer.
It takes time, but is absolutely worth it.
I love to watch your videos.
Best regards from Norway.
Ingar Sørensen
Japan dryer... I will give that a try :)
I polish with tripoli, not propolis. Just mixed up the words in my head. :)
That’s fascinating to me as a dabbler in fine furniture and knifemaking. Do you do anything to slowly further reduce moisture content before putting in the sun? I’m assuming you don’t do it when it’s 80 F and with a dry wind? I would be terrified of warpage.
uv curing resin like 3d printers!!!
my grandfather used to make his own varnish, I wish I had asked him to show me how because it was beautiful when he applied it to wood. that was quite a flame! that'd make for a wicked thumbnail lol
All credit to you Jerry for trying something new (old). Not many people in business would spare all that time to devolop their own varnish, hope it works out great for you.
I use Cobalt dryer with my home made varnish and I use mostly Tung oil in lieu of linseed oil.
I can see Jerry going door to door, collecting old pots and pans :oD Joke aside, please do some more on making varnish the old fashioned way. Love it!
Oxidation is the process of molecules, atoms, or ions losing electrons through a chemical reaction. Love the different content.
The most you learn by making mistakes. Look at our children. As an adult we often hesitate to do something because of the possibility of making mistakes.
I find it wonderful that you take the risk of doing something new which could be a failure. At the end of the day if success or failure you learned something and that counts.
I would appreciate hearing of further experiments with varnish.
Hay, the best lessons are learned by doing things and making mistakes. Now many of us will not make the same mistake. I really liked the color of the first trial. I, am wondering if you had added the drying agent to it at that point if it would have maintained the color and still dried better.
I would appreciate more videos on varnish. Even experimenting with color in some. Thanks for sharing your experience in doing this first trial. Your honesty is one of the reasons I really like your videos. Please never leave out the things that don't work. They are real teaching experiences that teach us what won't work well for us either.
Jerry, you're a good man. Forget the trolls. They're just mad because you have a life and they don't.
Criticism help people get better ..... sensitive people are the only ones that have issues with it.
Like you said, you got to start somewhere. Hope you don't give up. "No significant issues except it caught on fire." 🙂
Thank you, Jerry! You're right; we DO benefit from seeing how Not to do things. And it's no shame for you. Far more mistakes have been made in the pursuit of perfection than have "one and done" procedures. But you insisted on persisting, and came up a success! For a first effort, that's a pretty good one!
Jerry you weren't fooling....
Boom! That was a very interesting video....super glad you're okay. I did look hard in the footage after and it looked like you still had your real eyebrows. Thanks so much for sharing.
Flambé all good cooks know how to do that! I am glad everything was ok. Thanks for being vulnerable! I always enjoy your problem solving process.
linseed oil paints and varnishes take many days to dry and cure
Hello, I made the varnish or lacquer after Roger Clark down here in the comments. My first trial with error, but maybe some usefull hints for somebody. I took 150g raw linseed oil together with 50g of fir resin (cleared by heat, melted through a 150µm mesh) and sieved wood ash from beechwood, same volume as the oil and one liter of rainwater. This mixture cooked lively for 4 hours and stood to cool down. The above layer of varnish looked nearly black and was applied to a glas plate. It cured within two days in cold darkness. Maybe faster in sunlight. A thin layer has a reddish brown. Not so bad so far. Adding lime isn't nescessary since wood ash contains 50% of quicklime.
In my experience, the alcohol type varnish dries super fast and requires high quality fan brushes and you must be super fast in applying the warm varnish, otherwise you get streaks. The oil varnish type you are using takes up to a week or more to dry and a few weeks to cure, when mixed right it will get hard enough to buff out. I used an empty closet and hung the fiddles with news paper covering on the floor. It is definitely an art that I have not mastered. The old Italian varnishes had beatles and flower pedals ground up in the mixture. Keep going, your an inspiration to many tubers. Thumbs up!
Just ran across your video. Curious if you've given varnish making another go. I can say the reason your varnish didn't set is because you added the extra oil to it. Linseed oil and turpentine. What makes the oil set quickly is the oil content being polymerized by the heat. The temperature of the oil has to reach at least 430 degrees to become polymerized. So your original mix reached those temperatures. But the added oil was only heated to water boil temperature, 210 degrees. Not nearly enough to polymerize the added oil at all. Hence the slow drying. If you had just added turpentine to thin your original, thick varnish you would have had exactly what you wanted. But great going! And I too have had the surprise fun of bursting an oil resin mix into flames. Learned a new lesson. There are levels of flame. There's fire... and then, there's FIRE. Oil. Resin. Turps.... those things burn REAL good. Talk about a robust, wicked flame.
A+ for effort. Never afraid to try new things.
This was interesting! Thank you for posting. I've never thought of making my own varnish!
Very interesting. I never thought about making my own varnish.
Mr. Rosa... That was great! fire and all! After all is said and done, what you ended up with is sorta what the old masters called a medium. 1/3 Damar varnish, 1/3 turp, and1/3 linseed oil. I thought you did great. Thinkers make their stumbling stones stepping stones.
Intereting experiment. Dammar resin also known as frankincense, disolves in pure turpentine, no heat. If you need to add rosin then use a double boiler to melt the rosin, do not put on direct heat. You need to strain the dammar as it may have tree particles in it. I wrap my dammar in cheese cloth and then submerge in the turpentine. Dammar base varnish takes up to 2 weeks to dry. I use dammar/ turps 1:1. Once disolved strain ans add up to 50% extra turps. You can add linseed oil later. Good luck
More tension than watching a Stephen King movie!
Such fun watching, comments and humor included! You probably know by now but I’ve heard that oil varnishes are supposed to dry for weeks. It’s amazing because you don’t seem to need a sealant on the wood, probably mostly the alcohol based varnishes need egg white sealant or some other sealant.
We all need a close shave every now and then.
holy hell. wow. that was a huge fireball. so glad y'all r ok. maybe missing eyebrows, lol, but alive.
Excellent job Jerry
Would love to see another varnish video. And that was not a mistake, but a learning opportunity.
Traditionally Damar Varnishes take many days to even lose any tackiness, and weeks to have any measurable hardness of finish. I'm an oil painter and a former art materials tradesman, so I'm very certain of my drying times when dealing with the layered film your applying. Had it been cut with some more turpentine to a thinner consistency it will dry far faster, but require an additional coat or two. Damar Garnishes are usually considered dry enough after 120 days, since the film created must slowly evaporate the turpentine through the solids in the resins used. Your darker color may well have been caused by the oxidation resulting in the combustion of the fixture while mixing, but some thought must be given any impurities in the resin materials as well. Hope you find the sweet-spot your looking for with experience. Very best wishes my friend.
Jerry, I am seriously not an expert but from my violin making classes, one of the tutors did make his own varnish and the other was a seriously expert oil varnisher (Chris Beament from Cambridgeshire UK). The one thing that I leant from Chris, and understand is that all pine-resin varnishes must be put in a 'black-light' / UV cabinet for a couple of days for each coat that is applied. The UV light cures the varnish. In Cremona, they used to hang their violins out in the sun for days to cure. It is also my understanding that the oil varnish never truly ever fully cures even when hard to the touch. Some say it can take up to 50 years to cure fully.
The process that we were taught was to apply the varnish with upstrokes to stop it running, UV cabinet for a few days, take it out level with 400 grit lubricated with a few drops of linseed oil (to get rid of the sparkles) - wipe down with kitchen towel, apply the next coat, back in the UV cabinet etc., etc. Probably about four or five coats. Be interesting to see if this helps you. Without the UV light, it will never cure.
What's weird is I've used oil varnish before. Haider sign was the brand. It always cured in just a couple of days and I never had any problem. Unfortunately that brand is not available anymore. I did apply the varnish I made to a mandolin just this morning. It went on absolutely beautiful. I couldn't believe how nice it went on. And it really look beautiful. I did hang it in a confined area with a UV light. So I think everything is good.
@@RosaStringWorks Just wondering. After all oil varnish comes in many forms with different chemistry and some have special chemical hardeners added. So, some do cure by air but my understanding is that pine resin requires UV light to chemically change it, locking the polymers. I am no chemist but that is my understanding. Be interesting to me if any viewers are chemists and can explain it more fully.
I think what you say is true for a varnish that is maximal transparent. If it can be a bit on the brown side, it's much easier, and I achieved a varnish, that cured within two days without UV.
Thank you for this video, I learned a lot. Thanks for keeping in the part about the turpentine, it is actually very useful to see that. Someone probably mentioned this already, sorry if I'm repeating anyone. The other videos I've watched on this process say to rub in the varnish onto the instrument. It looks like each layer is rubbed in and allowed to soak and dry into the wood. Brushing it on probably makes it too thick.
Your first batch was perfect. You need to apply it very thinly. You need to push it around with a very stiff brush or dab it with your finger. Then, very importantly, you need to put it in the sun, the direct sun for just 1 hour and it will be almost dry.
Dear Mr. Jerry, a thought just occured to me. I have had good luck with using clear nail polish on violin bridges. Why not just use clear nail polish. Ididnt use any thinners. Use direct from the bottle. Sets up in about 20 minutes. Drys hard in 6 to 8 hours cures overnight. Ive had the clear nail polish on my violin bridge since last summer. Ive played my violin and it sounds sweet. If you did need to thin it down I would add a couple drops of acetone. I personally think its best to apply full strength but you have to work fast and in well ventillated room. I believe its called nitrocellulose lacquer.but not sure. The thing i like is it drys in only several hours. Hope this helps. Ps make sure room has good fan and open windows lacquer fumes very nasty. If you want a glossy varnish why not flecto varathane? All you have to do is thin it with paint thinner. Sets up over night. Hope this helps.😅
Many years ago (i think 15 maybe) there was a very detailed article on doing this in the Muzzleblast publication from the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association. I do remember they made up a "double boiler" to heat the mixture up and used sand as a heating medium between both pots. I think this made the temperature more stable. Try to reach out to them as they used to be great people and would appreciate what your doing. Could also reach out to colonial williamsburg as they also would be into creating these authentic oil based finishes.
Momma is going to be mad, you raided her kitchen!
Yes please show us your next varnish attempt.
I've never tried this before but have researched it when looking for a nitrocellulose lacquer recipe. The varnish is too thick, about twice as thick as it should be. You can thin it with either boiled or polymerized linseed oil or turpentine. With the BLO, you get the Japan dryer. Turpentine has oxidizing properties that can help it dry. Straight linseed oil will take longer to dry since the molecules aren't crosslinked by a polymerization process.
Can also try cooking the oil a little less before adding the resin.
Oh, some people put it in a large jar and use an aquarium bubble pump to aereate (spelling) the varnish or even the oil prior to boiling.
That's pretty much what I thinned it with.
@@RosaStringWorks oh, some people dissolve the resin into the turpentine and boil it then add with the oil. I think the oil and turpentine mixture has to be within 20° to reduce flashing. Some people pour the oil into the resin mixture but should be done off the heat with a couple of minutes to cool first. I'm trying to remember everything. When I did my research was right after Lawrence McFadden went out of business.
ooh ! ... when doing this you need your pot lid at the ready . . . flash point turp: 86 ~114 (F) . . . one of my first memorable experience(s) in semiconductor de-encapsulation (of epoxy packages 4 failure analysis ) was in a heated pot with solvents, over a hot plate, was not realizing the hot plate's thermostat was a simple bi-metal switch . . . that " occasionally sparked " .... and ignited the fumes ( well below the flash point of the solvent ) ... thanks for the memory!
As a former painter (back in the 80's) I am mildly familiar with Japan dryer and it is a great substance. We would occasionally use it when we needed a finish to dry faster due to the job requirements. As a suggestion I would say NOT to add the dryer to the entire supply. Instead I would advise adding the appropriate amount (dong the math) to a smaller batch that you are going to use immediately. I suspect if added to the entire batch you are going to either have it get overly thick or skin over and then you may be back to not drying. Just a thought....
That's how I did it. I took part of the varnish and added the dryer to it.
Thank you VERY much for doing this video. I have been wanting to try making my own varnish from the myriad of recipes I've collected. Some of them are even more dangerous than the one you chose, and seeing the flash from that turpentine was very impressive. I think I'll start with one of the less dangerous ones.
Looking at your final product, I'd mix in some more turpentine and thin that batch out a little. Nice color, though, especially on that maple piece. For a first attempt, I think you did just fine. And you've probably inspired a fair number of us violin maker wannabes some inspiration to do this ourselves. Again, thank you VERY much.
Whoops, spoke too soon. I should have known that you'd come up with the solution to the varnish being too thick. Great minds think alike, and US, TOO!
One thing to consider, oil varnish will stay soft for months after it's used on an instrument. At least that's what I've read in all the violin building books I've read. That's why the old makers would have a slew of instruments hanging up for a month or two after varnishing. Heron-Allen talks about it taking at least a month. Patience, my friend!
The oil varnish I used to use dried much faster. But it's no longer available.
@@RosaStringWorks I'm with you there. I used to find oil varnish at the local Ace hardware, now it's not available. They get us old geezers used to something then take it away. Again. I'm going to have to get myself one of those dual hot plates, I guess...
Oh, while I think of it, there are a LOT of other resins besides pine resin one can use, and it seems to me that a lot of people don't use pine because it does take a long time to cure. There are some really good articles on this topic from the Guild of American Luthiers that you might want to check out if you haven't already. But knowing you as little as I do, I suspect you've already memorized them all.
Yes, more.... this is very interesting.👍. Be safe
First I want to clarify that I don’t know anything about making farnish, however, I recently read that linseed oil is a drying agent used in oil based paint. Japan Dryer has three main components - Maganesse, linseed oil and turpentine. Lead my also be a component. I think you were on the right track when you started adding the oil and turpentine. You just need to find a good recipe. Hope you find the right mix for your project. Thanks for another very informative video.
It looks like a successful experiment, i'm looking forward to seeing how the varnish looks on an instrument!
Thank you very much for demonstrating this, and yes I would be grateful if you made more Varnish videos. I’m considering making some varnish at some point and hope to learn from your experiments. At the moment I’m going to use shellac for the ground coat, and follow up with Yacht Varnish, I’ve been looking at dyes for tinting varnish. I might make a video showing the results. At the moment I’m experimenting with different arching on two violins, which I will be showing when their completed to see the effect on sound.
"...it didn't look that dark... until the fire!"
lol
I looooove pine rosin. The aroma is amaaaaazing
Good Luck Jerry.
Fascinating experiment. When you said you had added Japan dryers I said Bingo! Lots of good information on varnish in Bob Flexner's columns for Popular Woodworking. One of the points he makes is that "boiled" linseed oil isn't so much boiled as it has drying agents added. If you had used "boiled" linseed oil you might have gotten your result faster but in the end the chemistry would have been the same.
Loved it! Nothing ventured nothing gained.. why reinvent the wheel? No oil varnishes available? Just curious why England has some and we don’t?
That's why we like you Jerry, no B.S
Look in the RW Wilson Majestic Maple stain is for curly tiger Maple flame maple that's what I use on my knife handles for what I did use on my knife handles and I'm going to tell you what Jerry and does a wonderful job on curly tiger Maple and Flame Maple I just thought I'd have a curly wood out there you would love it
GREAT COLOUR!!!!
I use to do boat work for a living and paint and varnish was in my lexicon. Too thick? I would add Penetrol, a colorless natural oil to thin the paint/varnish out. It did not change the color but did accelerate the drying time and "paintability" of the finish. Also the Japanese Drier would almost do the same thing but it thinned the finish more than the Penetrol.
Great video!! Reminded me of my ex-wife's cooking. Ragu Flambe was her specialty.
If you let the oil and resin cool then mix lacquer thinner that works real good also you can use all natural boiled linseed oil
Cool and educational video! Another use for your product, maybe while it was in the real thick stage, use in your manscaping endeavors!😁
Put two drops of sinnymold in a beaker, place it with chibble juice, add two fly’s lebbers and a pinch of snovvery and chant the magic words, Abbra Cadaver and eeny miny mocus, then woof all trickly little flames creeping along the tabloid all joined together in fiery fiery! What an awful calafestral!
You might try odorless mineral spirts (OMS) instead of turp. for the final thinning. The varnish should dry faster. Btw, artists oil paints typically take a couple of days to dry and months to finally set. Quicker drying artist paints use alkyd binders. These will dry in a few hours. One brand of alkyd, with no pigment, is Liquin, sold at most art stores. Also, a good art store will stock a number of different varnishes one of which might fill your needs. I really like your videos. Someday, I hope to have my ‘57 Martin repaired.
Quite impressive, thank you for the recipe, and the video. you've picked up a new subscriber. Replacing the resin with gilsonite might make a great Japanning fluid.
If I needed a recipe for a varnish I'd probably go to the, "Artist's Handbook Materials and Techniques" first published in 1940.
I use japan dryer, you might want to try using boiled linseed oil. Test your turpentine to see if it will ever dry.
When making varnish you have to be very very precise! or it will never dry, you need a perfect recipe and a scale! that being said if you're looking for oil and Damar varnish the easiest route! is your local fine art store, japan dryer etc.. which can be mixed will oil and a little solvent no heat required! I know I have a bachelor in arts! But Jerry! I highly recommend Birchwood Casey True-Oil , it will do exactly what you want and more it's quick! luthiers have all switched to tru-oil for natural finishes. Give that a go I feel you'll be extremely pleased!
I'm familiar with the true oil. I have used it on gun stocks in the past. I've never tried it on an instrument. I'll give it some thought.
@@RosaStringWorks A lot of luthiers have switched to it, it is a mixture of oils. I agree with you on acoustics oils do age better, and help the sound.
Great , very informative .
Priceless.
Oils don't dry as in a solvent (water, alcohol, etc) evaporates, but polymerize/oxidize, i.e. a chemical reaction takes place which usually just takes a lot of time. Using oil on wood (e.g. furniture), it can take a week to cure a thin layer that has been basically wiped off after shortly after application. The siccatives (japan dryer) do help with the time it takes to dry, but then you're introducing chemicals one may not want to include.
There seems to be quite a bit to choosing and preparing the oil as it can be filtered, washed, heated, aired and whatnot (and I'm not an expert on that, I found Edgar Russ's video helpful to understand the oil part better: ruclips.net/video/ZpD251wcFpc/видео.html). And then it can be boiled for a long time before starting to add the resin.
I'm not building music instruments, but I want to try give oil and resin varnish a try with some small woodworking projects, so thanks for the insights you share in this video.
Any results yet, David? Would be interesting. I'm still trying to get a reliable varnish the easiest way.
@@Wolfgang3418 not gotten around to it yet. Have you checked luthier or conservator supplies? I doubt making varnish will be an easy way. :)
Jerry you ain't gonna get away with not giving us some updates on this varnish! I have for years wanted the old masters varnish and you are on the Right Track! Did they have turpentine in Stratovarous's time? What would they have used? I know shellac is very old. I read somewhere they cut the shellac flakes with whiskey or brandy, any spirt they had. Those resins you got may be harder than nitrocellulose. Please, you have to keep us updated on your progress. If this stuff works, you may be on to Something! Love Ya! Thanxz
Turpentine comes from evergreen trees I believe. So I'm sure that was available. Barney's shoes that dilute with alcohol are referred to as spirit varnishes. And I'm not wanting to use those. Actually I did use shellac for the base below the oil varnish. The oil varnish will completely cover the shellac though.
Tar, creosote and turpentine all used to come from 🌲 and still do to some extent. Regular whiskey would raise the grain, need higher proof.
Your varnish recipe will not air dry; it is cured by UV light. Apply in thin coats and expose to sunlight, or UV bulbs. You can make a drying cabinet with some 4 foot fluorescent FL40 BL bulbs. Oil varnish will air dry only if you at a catalyst, some kind of metal or metal oxide (usually toxic) as someone mentions below. Oil varnishes that are UV cured and made without catalysts resist cracking and checking with age better than modern formulations.
I've always dried oil varnish without any UV assistance. Done it for thirty-some years. This particular oil varnish just didn't have any dryers in it. Having said that I have built a UV set up and am currently using that. The oil varnish I made is working very well. But mainly because I put the Japan drier in it.
Glad you finally got it to dry.😅
I think it is just like shellac. You probably need to cut it with white spirit. Yeah playing with flammables in shorts is not recommended. Getting hot oil based products on you will sure spoil your day. When doing experiments like these make notes on what you are doing, so when you get to the right place, you will know exactly how you got there, and so can replicate it. Otherwise you will just have whatever you made, and no idea how to get back there. Oil finish takes a while too dry. The linseed is the problem. It just takes forever to dry. That is the idea. Think oil paint. Use more volatiles, which will flash off easily.
I Imagine in a few months it'll be the best finish ever.
Hi I have a question
My acoustic flat top guitar has a scratch on the top that goes through to the bare wood would I use shellac to seal it up?
shellac is perfectly fine for that repair.
No Stress Jerry, we all make boo boos. And for others it is a really good lesson. Like I taught my boys, Learn from other people's mistakes, you don't have time to make them all for yourself.
Two grown men messing with science "BRILLIANT". Jerry I did notice after the fire you voice did go a little higher hahahahaha. And your comment "Ron + I went to lunch" did you mean to say "Ron + I went to the local A + E", enjoyed the video so much and can we have more of the same featuring "Ron + I"?
Im not an expert at these varnishes either. But I will advise with the string test, it did not get thick enough, your string was around just under an inch, which is 2.5 cm, a good string test is 2 inches or 5 cm, but even longer is better. And also the varnish is supposed to take that long to dry. It takes 3 or 4 days to dry when its outside with good sunlight, it takes UV light to dry. In the summer you just need to sit it out in the sun but during the winter its better to keep it inside under a UV light. And lastly with the color of the varnish, alot of variables go into that, such as the amount of your ashes, the types and amounts of resin or rosin, and the amount of time you reduced your oil. Hope this helps if you still have hopes for these varnishes.
Great Video!!!
question? why did you not start with boiled linseed oil? i think part of the problem may be the linseed wasnt boiled long enough. second i would have thinned only with turpentine and not added more oil. linseed oil is whats in oil paints so it will take a week or more to dry when ground into a ton of powdered pigment. adding only thinner would increase drying time theorhetically
sorry meant to say adding only thinner should decrease drying time. i am an artist and have dealt alot with linseed and in restoring antique radios/console record players i use varnish,laquer etc. i think once you had cooked it just add thinner like you would thin other clear coats that were too thin, prob give you the lighter tone you wanted too because theres less resin in the varnish mix. i am not a pro varnish maker but tinkering throughout my life makes these educated guesses
Fascinating experiment. Hope you do a follow-up.Thanks, Jerry.
The first one that didnt dry is beautiful.
Looked like a outdoor Turkey fryer gone bad .
informative .. as always .. thank you
All very interesting Jerry. Fire ball and all! Did the English product ever dry? maybe a little Japan Dryer in that jar?
Just made mine in the microwave stirring the resin into the Turp after heating, dissolved about 50/50 and added tung oil. Where did your guidelines come from, I wonder..? (its gotta cool before you get a string, then you will) Mine dries in 20 minutes..
My moto practice makes perfect he who knows everything knows nothing it's the same in anything you do believe I've been a panel beater and paint sprayer for 45 years and still learning still make mistakes with new techniques if you dont try you dont know and if it means making mistakes so be it 👍
Hey Jerry I had to laugh to then the varnish out ad a cap or two of turpentine and that should thin it out great video Jerry take care my friend
I actually did that several times.
Terrabine oil should make it dry . It will yellow it slightly. Please no more oil !! , maybe a touch of turps for consistency. good luck !
Thanks, Jer. This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway. Would it help in the saturation into the grains if you put it on very warm to slightly hot? Sort of like you did heating it to thin it out in boiling water...
u sure u don't wanna make it extra crispy. and cook it longer. lol. but how would u do it, where it wouldn't flash? like how cool would u need it to b to add the turpentine so it doesnt flash??? but either way that is a pretty color.
If you remove it from the heat source and let it cool just slightly, pouring in the turpentine will not cause a combustion. If you look closely, it flashed because the evaporating fumes hit the heat source (the burner plate) directly and ignited. Turpentine self-ignition temperature is about 250 Celsius or slightly below 500 Fahrenheit. All parts of this varnish are flammable and none of the ingredients should ever come in direct contact with a heat source that is hot enough to start a fire.
Look up and Edgar Russ on RUclips who is a luthier he has an entire tutorial on how he makes varnish.
My biggest question is did Mrs Rosa get some new cookware out of this?
Im doing this, shore pine resin. Turp. you dont want too much pine resin, Oxidation is the hardening process. I prefer tung oil..(you dont have to tell us turpentine is flammable man!)
Jerry test it how you intend to use it. You may have to find dryers to add ( ? )
hy... you might try putting a dust free cardboard box... up side down over your work.... it worked for me....thx dave.
Oxidation is a process where a substance reacts with air (oxygen) and changes colour with time. . .
Reminds me of the first time I tried to cook varnish. I think I lost my eyebrows!
Linseed based varnish needs strong sunlight to polymerize but it takes much longer than commercial varnish. It can take months to fully varnish a violin.
you know that smoke coming out? if u can get that into a copper mineral, then that will directly add to the varnish. (copper additive varnish.) - "copper linseedate" its a carboxylate mineral.
Can you use any of these homemade varnishes on paper?
Check out, wood by wright, he makes his own boiled linseed oil from flax seed oil and has at least one video on it. I am wondering if the oil was not boiled long enough.? Raw linseed takes forever to cure.(don't ask me how I know!)
"It's pretty much finished I believe" LOL!! What color you call that? Burnt Umber? It's too thick to dry. Speaking as someone who has never done it, I wouldn't bother with the oil and just thin it with the turpentine. Turpentine will evaporate, but oil won't.
I did bring it with turpentine several more times. That was in the video.
Yeah, I became the classic person I complain about. Make your comment before you get to the end!
sorry mr. I'm from Indonesia. after varnish, how long does it dry and can it be used? thank you
That type of varnish takes a very long time to drive. If you add Japan drier to it it help speed it up. I am not an expert in it and I am still working on improving the process.
@@RosaStringWorks Thank you very much for the information. This really helped me, to do next. And I will try again from the beginning. Thank you