I'm with you! As a hunter, if I can get consistent sub moa 3 shot groups at 100 yds and rarely shoot past 250 yds anyway, I'm good to go. Like you, my main accuracy verification is where that first cold bore shot goes.
Nice to hear someone talk about this from the real world. You're spot on. The internet has made a lot of guys unsatisfied and miserable when in all honesty their rifle and ammo is giving them all they need.
For hunting a 3 shot group is all you need! I might know since I have been hunting reloading and collecting bolt action rifles 60+ years and hundreds of rifles in about every brand and cartridge made and that group will kill anything walking out there if you go your part😳
Not only are the supply’s expensive. There are times in the past 4 years that they are not available at all. I haven’t been able to buy 215m primers in years with the exception of gunbroker.
@ntwtransam yes sir. Very true. I don't believe it will get better. H4198, haven't seen it for 4 years. The 45-70 has been sitting idle for 3 years now
This might be the smartest video you've ever put out. I knew there was a reason I stopped watching certain other youtubers but continued to watch yours.
@ReloadingWeatherby yes you should Nice things are rarely said on the internet. Not to just dunk on anyone specific but even guys like Ron Spoomer or even Backfire (whom i enjoy watching) just simply dont seem to understand what its like for the average hunter. Thats why im a fudd 270 lover. If a new hunter asked me what the perfect deer cartridge is i would say 270 win with a bonded bullet. Super flat shooting so you dont have to dial Also you can shoot further comfortably Tapered cartridge to eliminate any feeding issues Not to much power to destroy meat Not to little power helps forgive less than ideal shot placement Widely available ammo at reasonable prices Widely available chamberings in cheap guns Low recoil Also if you want to be super duper accurate you can do that with any custom gun if you get a long super heavy high end barrel in any cartridge. I hate watching videos were i get pounded over the head with bone headed stupidity Recently Ron spoomer did a video were his guest said that the 243 win was boring and underpowered for antelope and than picked up a 6mm creedmoor to use instead. Its literally the most similar possible cartridge he could have picked. But back on topic although I have seen you make mistakes they were honest mistakes
Depends on the use of the rifle. If it’s a bench gun 5 shot minimum. A sporting deer rifle, 3 is all you need. A cold bore 3 shot group ( over a period of time allowing cooling) is what I use.
I agree with you on the 3 shot groups. I will also shoot 3 shot groups while developing a load. If that particular powder charge, primer, ect won't produce a decent group the first time i shoot it i move on. I am doing another test this year that i havent done before. I have my own range so its probably easier for me than most. I am taking whatever rifle i plan on hunting with out and shooting 1 shot per day from 100 yards for 10 days at the same target, im excited to see my results with weather varying, and shooting at different times of the day
That is a great idea. I used to do five round groups in my target rifle and would usually get half moa or better groups with the occasional 3/4 moa or 1 moa group. I always attributed those 1 moa groups to my error as more often than not it would be a tight cluster of 4 with a "flier". I did however notice that my half moa groups seemed to wander a little bit from the point of aim. Sometimes they would be at the top 0.25" high and sometimes 0.25-0.5" low. It wasn't until I started doing 10-20 round groups with my target rifle (after the Hornady podcast) that I realized that the gun is legitimately a 1 moa rifle all day long. For hunting as long out to 400 yards a 2 moa rifle will realistically be accurate especially if it typically shoots inside of that. If you're keeping a series of 3 shot groups it would be interesting to overlay them on top of each other with a reference to the point of aim that way over time you can compile enough data to verify the accuracy of your rifle.
I'm going to check for zero wandering. And see if it happens and maybe what can be done to control it but this test will be all cold bore shots. Then I will probably shoot a 10 shot group after that to see how they compare. I also don't see the point in a hunting rifle to shoot a 20 shot string even if you broke it into 2 shot groups. And 1 of the 10 2 shot groups was great and the other 9 were not its still not telling you anything I think a smaller sample size in this instance over many days will be the best test for myself and my rifle
@@kody7316 I'm absolutely with you that there's no need to have a hunting rifle shoot 20 round strings. For my custom hunting rifles I do five round groups but compare the groups. For my factory hunting rifles it's the round groups and then comparing the groups.
@@user-sq5ix1uc3f This is the part guys completely miss the mark on buy not shooting larger groups or compiling their groups. Guys shoot (2) 3 shots groups lets say those individual groups measure exactly 1moa each. But each is opposite the point of aim by .25? They don't take that into consideration and think there gun is a 1moa gun when in reality the entire group size should be measured not the individual groups.
A primary reason for a true flyer is a function of the ignition system in the rifle, not the load, not the barrel temperature, not the barrel diameter. That's why top tier rifle builders handle that when putting together a rifle. If there are witness marks inside the bolt shroud, you'll get flyers, always. That's a more appropriate issue that can be fixed vs the notion that a bigger 5 shot group demonstrates a "true group dispersion." The best three shot group practice I do is when the barrel is completely cooled to current outside temps between each and every shot. That's why I show up at the range with 7-10 rifles at a time. I take up 2 tables. I shoot a rifle, prop it upright for the chimney effect to allow bore heat to escape quicker, and move on to the next rifle. By the time I log data with each shot and get back to the first rifle, the barrel has cooled off. This works well for me and 3 shot strings are all that's needed. I also noticed in all of my rifles this method typically produces the best groups anyway and it mimics what will actually happen while hunting. We all know that first shot is the one that matters most. The myth that more than 3 shots is necessary to establish "statistical significance" for a hunting rifle used only for hunting and within the most common distances, for me, is just laughable. But hey, it's their money, time, wasted components. The desirable benefit I see in that practice is just more trigger time, which is useful. Thanks for the video.
Skinny barrels dont matter…it just means you have to wait longer for them to cool. Get a barrel cooler and a temp gun if you really wanna test it. Its also a great idea to try fast fire strings to see what impact barrel heat has on your load and groups.
@@orr89rocz Not really though. Thin barrels do heat up quickly, but they also cool quicker. I use an external fan and an internal barrel cooler fan to cool both the inside and outside of the barrel at the same time. Cools down much quicker that way. Also temp guns don't get accurate reading from barrel steel, especially Stainless Steel barrels. Paint a spot on the barrel and it will give a much better temp reading from your temp gun. :)
@@Rico11b i meant wait longer between shots to allow it to cool. But it still takes a long time once they heat soak if only using air fans to cool, esp in warm ambient weather. But what is considered warm or hot varies between ppl. I can do 4-5 shots in a 1” barrel blank and there will be no heat in it. Pencil thin model 7, its usually 2 shots and a wait for the 3rd. Usually I’ll wait after 1 shot for a bit to fire the second.
@@orr89rocz That's true. For me, too hot is when I can't hold on to the barrel. If I can't grab it and hold on then I let it cool. I use a high speed fan blowing down the length of the barrel to cool the outside and a high speed blower with a tube attached to blow through the chamber and down the inside of the barrel. This combo moves a tremendous volume of air. It's cools quickly even on a really hot day. On a cool day, you hardly need it.
@@orr89rocz To a certain degree yes but I don't think 9 or 10-shot group in a short amount of time would be relevant for a skinny barrel compared to a bull-contoured PRS competition one. But 10 shots are common within a PRS comp stage since you do not have time to “cool” the barrel within a 90 or 120s timer on .
You are right on the money as far as I am concerned. I am 76 years old and I can not remember the last time I fired more than one shot big game hunting. Varmint hunting and target shooting is another matter.
3 shot groups are absolutely more than adequate for hunting rifles. It depends on the rifle whether someone should shoot 3, 5, or 10 shot groups. An even better idea for a hunting rifle is a one shot group over several different days to truly determine cold bore impact because most hunting rifles never require more than one shot as long as a good shot is made.
You can only do the best you can, always someone will do better than yourself, but that is in everything in life, but also people do a hell of a lot worse than you do to. Do what you are comfortable doing, it's coming out of you're pocket no one else's.
I would agree with you 100% Austin. 3 shot groups are enough of an indication of whether your rifle likes or dislikes any particular load combination without wasting valuable resources. I bought some rifle powder in my area several weeks ago and it was $65 a pound as I’m sure you are aware of! $80-100 for a box of bullets is ridiculous, also! The only time I would suggest going with 5 shot groups is when you are honing in on a load, after you have established that your rife shows potential with that load combination with a prior 3 shot group and, it’s a load you want to go with. Good content as usual Austin. I would definitely like to see more 257 Weatherby Magnum load content on your site from time to time if you don’t mind my suggestion. God Bless.
For a hunting rifle, 3 cold bore shots are what one should do. If one can consistently shoot in their target's kill zone on the first shot, that is enough. The "grouping" is to determine if the hit meets the aim. If one aims at the same point and the bullet is consistently hitting x-distance from the aimpoint, corrections should be made to bring the hits closer to the aim. Some of my hunting rifles get quite hot after only 3 shots and the groups seem to expand from that point onward, but once cooled they send that first shot pretty first to the earlier one. I can imagine how hot a 340 Weatherby gets after 3 shots with half again the powder in a 30-06 load. For target shooting rifles, the rifle should remain consistent for the course of fire.
I agree with you 100%, Austin. I load both ways, meaning for hunting and for long range. But, as you pointed out, different rifles for different jobs. I’m happy with .75” groups out of my .338 because that’s still minute of heart at 400 yards, the maximum I intend to use it for elk. I’m not happy with .75” from the 6.5 Man Bun because that’s 7.5” at 1000 yards. Still minute of pie plate, but you get the idea. I’m not happy with .5” groups out of the .223 or .22-250 because that’s still 2” at 400 yards and can easily mean a miss at a small varmint. Different job, different tool, different requirements. Don’t let Fudds or Armchair Keyboard Warriors ruin your perspective. You’re not running Mawhinny Magnums at 2500+ yards. Not everyone needs a Bugatti to buy groceries. Here’s my perspective. Your mileage may vary. But I’ll generally develop an acceptable hunting load under 1 MOA. As time and resources permit, I’ll incrementally adjust that load until I get it as good as I can get it. That load goes into a book. Next season I may try a new bullet or powder. Rinse and repeat. Sometimes you find a very accurate load that is easily verifiable and consistent. It moves into position number one. Sometimes that original load remains in position one for a long time. There’s a big difference between acceptable accuracy and expectable accuracy. I expect my varmint guns to do .5 or better because that is their expectable job performance. I accept that my .338 does .75” and is acceptable for its intended purpose. This video placed you on top as far as I’m concerned. I’d much rather hear your realistic perspective than have to listen to some snob who’s never shot at anything but a piece of paper.
Well said. I've been preaching that for 50 years especially the cold bore stuff. I have went so far as to shoot 1 bullet a day for 3 days to verify cold bore zero
@MTCKIE68 If I am "surprised" by anything at all. The distance will be 20 yards or less. If I print a 2 shot group at 100 at 2 inches. Probability of a miss at 20 yards is "ZERO". WILL A THIRD SHOT GO 2 FEET HIGH AND 3 FEET LEFT, I THINK NOT.
@MTCKIE68 what does any of that have to do with a 2 versus 3 shot group? I will hit what I am aiming at wether I shoot a 2 or 3 shot group. Perhaps you may be the one that doesent know what a gun does.
Good video. Some of us only need the 3 shot groups as hunters. As long as my hunting rifles perform well at that point I’m happy with them. Your definitely right about r22 and imr 7828 both are very difficult to source these day. I was lucky yesterday and was able to trade into 2 more pounds of r22 it helped make my day.
I just took a class and we were held to 2 shot attempts at a target because usually that is all you get. For magnum loads I would only do 2 shot groups anyway with a thin barrel. You will consistently get better groups. Nothing stopping you from repeating the two shot groups after cooling down.
Thank you for the realistic perspective! I'm an amateur reloader myself, but I did a buuunch of research and spent a decent amount of money on trying to develop loads for my 7mm-08 and 30-06. My groups were (and still are) averaging ~1.25 MOA and it was very frustrating because people always say that reloads are "SUPPOSED to be super accurate", and I'm sure they can be! but I was persistent on trying to improve my reloads and ultimately went spiraling down this path of disappointment... After so much frustration I finally 'woke up' and arrived at the same points that you mentioned in this video. At the end of the day, I'm just an occasional hunter that will not shoot past ~350 yds. I'm now able to be at peace with my ~1.25 MOA reloads haha. All the points you make in this video are valid!
@@ReloadingWeatherby oh they definitely do sometimes. For example, on a typical range day, I would fire a fouling round and then I'd shoot three 3-shot groups. One would be 1.1ish, one would be 0.7ish, and the last would be 1.4ish. All of my groups average out to about 1.25ish MOA. I'm also letting the barrel cool in between groups. Tbh I think ME, the shooter, am also imparting an additional .25 MOA to these groups. I'm shooting off of my hunting pack with a cheap rear bag - I can't quite isolate the accuracy of JUST my ammo... I watch Whoteewho shoot excellent groups all the time, and it makes me wonder if a 'shooting sled' is a huge part of the reason why. Not trying to discredit him tho! You'd still need a good trigger squeeze even with a sled!
@@richardc553 That's pretty normal. What you strive for is to find a load the gun really likes... where the worse group is around an inch instead of 1.25 or 1.5 inches.
I think top tier factory ammo is hard to beat and I’ve been reloading for a long time. Factory ammo is a lot better than it used to be. All my guns are 1-1/2” guns. Sure I’ve shot some tiny groups but plenty of big ones too. I think your rifle is shooting just like every one else’s.
Please keep going as you are now. Been shooting for years, did Bisley and service rifle competitively for 30 years. Never saw/experienced the necessity for 10-15 shot groups. Our load development was first 1 shot ladders, and then 3 shot group tests. And only the final load or maybe 2 loads were then pushed for larger groups. I am so over the keyboard warrior/professors. They will always know more, be better, are more awesome than mortal humans. They exist by jumping to non-existing conclusions.
That was an awesome last 3 shots. Thanks for sharing. I am still planning on try to reload my 270 win to shoot 165 grain Accubond long range bullets and see if I can get them to stabilize in my Browning X-bolt.
Only time I do anything more than 3 shot groups if I have a two close and one separated from the group. I normally follow up with one more to see if the bullet is tracking in a linear line. If you have tracking, means memory in the steel of barrel that was created during manufacturing is beginning to show.
My dad's Ruger American does same. Ruger told us to let barrel cool after 2 shots. 10 15 min. all 4 touch. They told me its the barrel harmonics change with temp.
Well that mean Ruger has terrible barrels. A well built barrel should not have poi changes due to heat (too a point) A barrel should shoot consistent well past the point the barrel is untouchable.
The three shot group has become an industry standard. If you have a firearm that cannot maintain under 1 inches within three shots, there’s usually an issue. I think that’s why it has been accepted. However, 10 to 15 shots will tell the true tale of a firearms capabilities. I shoot competition. I judge my zeros off 3 to 5 shots. I have never had any issues, making connections on targets out to 600 yards And it not be my fault. Most people complaining don’t shoot past 300. And some people complaining do bench rest competitions and are justified in doing so. However, they need to understand there are many different genres of shooting.
I agree with all points, especially the hunting rifle angle; how many hunters need more than 3 shots? And the first is the most important, always! Thank you!
Spot on! The availability of things makes load development costly an time consuming an as you said as long as the cold bore is where you want it for hunting that's the most important.
You're one of the very few guys I watch on RUclips. Like your approach and your taste in rifles and cartridges. Just ignore the Hornady fan boyz they are the worst sometimes lol.
If my HUNTING rifle would always shoot two shots almost touching and third one is always a flyer I would be 100% tickled pink about that, that a good rifle.
Excellent Video, 100% correct. As a hunter myself, my 1st cold bore shot is my most importantwith a possible but rarely happens a follow up, on mid to large game.
I only shoot 3 shot...unless...its a varmint rifle where i might be doing a,lot of shooting with a hot barrel. 3 shot groups with big game rifle perfect
I agree with you man!👍 I feel most of us on here are hunters interested in other calibers. I would also add that the 3 shot groups you post are confidence with that slinger going into a hunt! That super model Mark V tho😍😍😍
I agree mate and it's about time someone said it. If a reloader/hunter can't understand what's happening from a handful of three shot groups on a given load, they're not paying attention.
Three shot groups are standard fare. Can you shoot more, sure but you’ll actually end up at about the same place. Most of the time it is the shooter behind the rifle that is making the mistakes when more shots are used. 3 shot groups are great when you’re working up handloads on a hunting rifle. Austin, you’re on the right track as you well know!
I have a request for a video. I realize it’s not related to this video, but here goes; I’d like to see one on the economics of reloading. For example. If I wanted to fire a 95 grain 6mm bullet at 2800 fps I could go with a 6mm ARC stuffed full of an expensive powder, but perhaps it’s also an option to choose a .243 Win or 6mm Creedmoor and use a little more of a less expensive powder. There is also the effect of that on barrel life. Perhaps a lowe pressure load with more powder could achieve the same objective? Also, what is the cost and value of small rifle primers vs large rifle primers? Will a large rifle primer paired with a short barrel allow you to run a little less powder for the same max pressure, and get fuller powder burn in a short barrel? I see a lot of videos of people trying to get the best velocity out of a cartridge, but I would like to see a video on getting the most energy down range for the least cost.
Austin, this ranks at a minimum of top 3 video ive seen when its pertains to hunting and rifle accuracy. Sure, occasionally i shoot 5 shot groups with my 6.5 cm or my other rifles, but 3 shots will generally tell what you need to know. And that is whether a particular load is repeatable or not.
Big game rifles I shoot 3 shot groups because I habe never needed more than 1 shot 99.9% of the time. Varmint rifles I'll shoot 5 shot groups just because I use less powder and the projectiles are cheap. Keep up the good work
That first shot out of a cold bore is the most important. If you don't give that barrel 15 minutes between shots, the group will expand because the barrel hasn't had the time to retract from the heat.
False...but do whatever makes you feel good. A well built stress treated barrel should have no issue putting together multiple shot strings before cooling.
Completely agree, if you are a hunter you might carry that rifle for days on end. When you do pull (squeeze) the trigger, it is only shot 1 that will count (and needs to count) if you know where the cold bore shot will land. Knowing where shot 10 in the dispersion will fall becomes immaterial if you cannot put it in the vitals with shot 1. If you cannot kill with shot 1 you are reliant on accuracy by volume.
@@wcb5890 I've never seen a barrel that doesn't expand from the heat. I haven't ever even heard of a steel that didn't expand from heat. Please tell me what steel doesn't.
I agree with you and most rifle manufacturers only give 3 shot MOA because of the barrel most of us are like you can't afford to shoot good hunting bullets that much
Absolutely right on the money. 3 shots verify hunting accuracy. Load development accuracy. And economy, we all shoot quality bullets and have a moderate investment in each shot string
I think 3 shot groups are fine when you’re exploring. When it comes time to validate a load you intend to use in the field, I think a few different 5 shot groups in different conditions is a good test to know if a load will perform. I think just make it clear that this is testing and don’t present it like a load is totally wrapped up from one 3 shot group (not saying that you ever go that far). If you have a load for a gun already then just clarify this is just load testing for fun and you’re not looking for a hunting load and most people will probably get off your back about it. Load testing with different bullets is fun even if you’re not intending to use for more than range work. It’s still practice and there’s always a chance you’ll stumble on a banger load that’s so good you can’t ignore it.
I don't disagree, though for me (as someone who ALSO plans on reloading) I think it depends on the phase of your shooting. For load developing/truing, I would want multiple 10 shot groups for a given load (maybe 30-40 rounds total, moving on when its obvious something is wrong). For skill and accuracy of YOURSELF, then I think 3 shot groups are perfectly fine, especially for the hunter types. I'm personally more interesting in Target/Comp shooting at range, so I would probably want to develop skills in long range precision, follow-through, and recovery for a follow-up shot and so should probably shoot more per string
Yes you need an appropriate amount of data. Controlling variables for 'actual accuracy ' is also important. In which case wouldn't 10 shots with the same barrel conditions give you the answer you're looking for?
Excellent topic. Well explained, the fact that we need such a video is more troubling than the explanation of it. We all should do ourselves. We should do what we like to do for our own reasons. We're not hurting anyone harming anyone altering anyone's anything, it's called America. You do you fella? I'll do me how boring we would be if we all were exactly the same for the exact same reason. 🙏🙏❤️🩹🙏🙏
exactly correct..on hunting barrels, heat is real problem and shooting magnums after 3 shots your barrel is moving and changing. a huge waste of time and money to push your barrel into excessive heat just to test 5-10 shot groups. In a hunting scerario 2 shots is the most common.. It is like shooting groups in archery> do you think the deer or elk will stand there until you get your 5-10 shots at it? like you practiced all summer..If you can't hit it on the first shot? why bother shooting at all? Yes things happen out of your control and maybe a 2nd shot happens, but it is not something to believe in.. cold bore/1st shot has to be right or go to safeway for meat.
One 3shoot group doesn't say anything when you do a load development, but it can give you some hint of what the gun like you need to confirm that with many 3shoots groups or 5shoots or 10 etc ... People dislike it because you think you found the ultimate load after 3shoots and one type of powder, next time i shots like shits because the first time you tested it was a lucky group etc
Bingo! One sample is not enough. Had this happen to me many times. What you need is repeatability. Shoot 3 shot groups is fine, and if it does that several times across different days then you know you found something.
Don't feel like you have to defend yourself and your good content. Your attention to detail in reloading and ballistics is still leaps and bounds ahead of most keyboard warriors. At the end of the day our goals as hunters is to take game as closely as we can, as accurately and as ethically as we can, and dispatch the animal with as few shots as possible to reduce suffering and meat damage.
yes as a hunter only cold barrels shots count and if your not shooting past 200/300 yards you don't have to be so picky about sub moa groups, the lethal zone is much bigger than that and the expansion of bullets is there to correct this margin of error, but It's still smart to be picky about our results because it's always better to have too much requirements than not enough. ( and if I take myself for example I shoot 3 bullets one by one every 10 minutes for my groups, to be sure that my barrel is cold,thing that I repeat 2/3 times, I often spend 2 hours at the shooting range for 6/9 bullets shots, so it's certain that for a RUclipsr it's neither profitable nor fun for the viewer.)
i only do 3 shot groups because i do not own an armoury and can not afford to screw a new barrel on every year. to the 5 shot gang, i say, you do you. mine rifles will last longer than i will. it is, in fact, your first shot that matters most.
5 or 10 shot groups give additional opportunities to have variability in ammo and gives you more opportunities to make an error in your shooting. opening up groups because you shoot more may have absolutely nothing to do with the rifle.
Yeah it's true 3 shot groups aren't enough to tell who whole story but the smaller the group is the more valid a lesser shot count is. You can always just stack groups too 5x3 shot groups is the same as a 15 shot group. Fliers and cold bore always count as part of the group as well.
I do 5 shot groups, but I repeat them 5 or 6 times to get an idea of dispersion. But what most people don't understand, is that, rifles like anything else operate on gaussian distribution, and unless the load is just absolute garbage with a completely incompatible bullet/powder/cartridge combination, at hunting distances, it doesn't matter. Most pencil barreled hunting rifles average about 1-1.5moa, with some able to operate in that 3/4 to 1-1/4moa realm of dispersion and it just is what it is. Accept it, move on, and save the components.
I don’t understand why people are so resistant to this your groups are too small video by Hornady. It’s valuable information for anyone that is trying to work up an accurate load. I know plenty of guys that fire one shot at a paper plate before deer season and call it good and that’s good enough for them. Make fun of us hornady fan boys all you want but I appreciate what they’re doing.
I'm not upset at Hornady at all. It's interesting info. But now I get constant comments saying I need to do 20 shot groups to really see what my gun is doing. That is very applicable for precision rifles in competitions. It's just a waste of barrel life and components on a hunting rifle
30 shots as 10, 3 shot groups is the same amount of components as firing those 30 rounds into a single group or 3 groups of 10. I personally can’t afford to waste my components turning money into noise and not getting good data out of the deal, so I will keep shooting 10 shots as my minimum for a group.
Thats why I do 3 shit groups my self. I even go as far as let my rifle cool down for 5 to 10 minutes between shots. It just depends on the temperature. I got lucky about a week ago and found a pound of RL 22 at my local shop. Paid $75 for it. But my 280 Remington loves it with 160 class bullets.
I have that same problem I will get two touching then pull one to the side. Think it’s mental for me get all excited that there grouping so good throws me off .then I end up sending two more and they go back where I want them two.flyers happen that’s why we practice.Maybe it all these guys shooting 30 shot groups is why powder prices are so ridiculous right now! How are the rest of us supposed to afford to have fun!
Not to be a Hornady “defender” but every time I can remember when they spoke about 15-20+ shot groups it’s from a competition perspective and MAYBE a long range hunting scenario. If you’re competing at a national level then they’re likely spot on, or if you’re a guy that intends to shoot animals at 800+ yards they’re probably right. For most hunters inside 400? Not necessary
I feel 5 shot groups for a hunting rifle is a waste of ammo. If you need 5 shots to kill something you shouldn't be hunting. I use 3 shots for hunting rifles and 5 shots for target or varmint rifles.
For a big game hunting rifle there's no need for more than a 3 shot group in my opinion. You're not likely to shoot more than 3 shots at a time while hunting big game so what's the point in 5 or more shot groups. Magnums aren't meant for target shooting - they're meant for hunting. Maybe these jack legs who think you need to shoot 5 or 10 shot groups should come and shoot your 340 for you and pay for the ammo they shoot. I wonder if their opinion would change after that.
I'm with you! As a hunter, if I can get consistent sub moa 3 shot groups at 100 yds and rarely shoot past 250 yds anyway, I'm good to go.
Like you, my main accuracy verification is where that first cold bore shot goes.
Did you make this video?You was gonna make seven millimeter magnum versus seven millimeter p r c for accuracy
Nice to hear someone talk about this from the real world. You're spot on. The internet has made a lot of guys unsatisfied and miserable when in all honesty their rifle and ammo is giving them all they need.
Well said!
USMC calls it tri-fire.
For hunting a 3 shot group is all you need! I might know since I have been hunting reloading and collecting bolt action rifles 60+ years and hundreds of rifles in about every brand and cartridge made and that group will kill anything walking out there if you go your part😳
I dont actually do only 3 shots i do many many 3 shot groups and average them out
Not only are the supply’s expensive. There are times in the past 4 years that they are not available at all. I haven’t been able to buy 215m primers in years with the exception of gunbroker.
@ntwtransam yes sir. Very true. I don't believe it will get better. H4198, haven't seen it for 4 years. The 45-70 has been sitting idle for 3 years now
This might be the smartest video you've ever put out.
I knew there was a reason I stopped watching certain other youtubers but continued to watch yours.
I'll take that as a compliment?
@ReloadingWeatherby yes you should
Nice things are rarely said on the internet.
Not to just dunk on anyone specific but even guys like Ron Spoomer or even Backfire (whom i enjoy watching) just simply dont seem to understand what its like for the average hunter.
Thats why im a fudd 270 lover. If a new hunter asked me what the perfect deer cartridge is i would say 270 win with a bonded bullet.
Super flat shooting so you dont have to dial
Also you can shoot further comfortably
Tapered cartridge to eliminate any feeding issues
Not to much power to destroy meat
Not to little power helps forgive less than ideal shot placement
Widely available ammo at reasonable prices
Widely available chamberings in cheap guns
Low recoil
Also if you want to be super duper accurate you can do that with any custom gun if you get a long super heavy high end barrel in any cartridge.
I hate watching videos were i get pounded over the head with bone headed stupidity
Recently Ron spoomer did a video were his guest said that the 243 win was boring and underpowered for antelope and than picked up a 6mm creedmoor to use instead. Its literally the most similar possible cartridge he could have picked.
But back on topic although I have seen you make mistakes they were honest mistakes
I think of all the videos you done this is the only one, that sounds like you really know what you are talking about.
Depends on the use of the rifle. If it’s a bench gun 5 shot minimum. A sporting deer rifle, 3 is all you need. A cold bore 3 shot group ( over a period of time allowing cooling) is what I use.
I agree
I agree with you on the 3 shot groups. I will also shoot 3 shot groups while developing a load. If that particular powder charge, primer, ect won't produce a decent group the first time i shoot it i move on. I am doing another test this year that i havent done before. I have my own range so its probably easier for me than most. I am taking whatever rifle i plan on hunting with out and shooting 1 shot per day from 100 yards for 10 days at the same target, im excited to see my results with weather varying, and shooting at different times of the day
Let me know how it goes
That is a great idea. I used to do five round groups in my target rifle and would usually get half moa or better groups with the occasional 3/4 moa or 1 moa group. I always attributed those 1 moa groups to my error as more often than not it would be a tight cluster of 4 with a "flier". I did however notice that my half moa groups seemed to wander a little bit from the point of aim. Sometimes they would be at the top 0.25" high and sometimes 0.25-0.5" low. It wasn't until I started doing 10-20 round groups with my target rifle (after the Hornady podcast) that I realized that the gun is legitimately a 1 moa rifle all day long. For hunting as long out to 400 yards a 2 moa rifle will realistically be accurate especially if it typically shoots inside of that.
If you're keeping a series of 3 shot groups it would be interesting to overlay them on top of each other with a reference to the point of aim that way over time you can compile enough data to verify the accuracy of your rifle.
I'm going to check for zero wandering. And see if it happens and maybe what can be done to control it but this test will be all cold bore shots. Then I will probably shoot a 10 shot group after that to see how they compare. I also don't see the point in a hunting rifle to shoot a 20 shot string even if you broke it into 2 shot groups. And 1 of the 10 2 shot groups was great and the other 9 were not its still not telling you anything I think a smaller sample size in this instance over many days will be the best test for myself and my rifle
@@kody7316 I'm absolutely with you that there's no need to have a hunting rifle shoot 20 round strings. For my custom hunting rifles I do five round groups but compare the groups. For my factory hunting rifles it's the round groups and then comparing the groups.
@@user-sq5ix1uc3f This is the part guys completely miss the mark on buy not shooting larger groups or compiling their groups. Guys shoot (2) 3 shots groups lets say those individual groups measure exactly 1moa each. But each is opposite the point of aim by .25? They don't take that into consideration and think there gun is a 1moa gun when in reality the entire group size should be measured not the individual groups.
A primary reason for a true flyer is a function of the ignition system in the rifle, not the load, not the barrel temperature, not the barrel diameter. That's why top tier rifle builders handle that when putting together a rifle. If there are witness marks inside the bolt shroud, you'll get flyers, always. That's a more appropriate issue that can be fixed vs the notion that a bigger 5 shot group demonstrates a "true group dispersion."
The best three shot group practice I do is when the barrel is completely cooled to current outside temps between each and every shot. That's why I show up at the range with 7-10 rifles at a time. I take up 2 tables. I shoot a rifle, prop it upright for the chimney effect to allow bore heat to escape quicker, and move on to the next rifle. By the time I log data with each shot and get back to the first rifle, the barrel has cooled off.
This works well for me and 3 shot strings are all that's needed. I also noticed in all of my rifles this method typically produces the best groups anyway and it mimics what will actually happen while hunting. We all know that first shot is the one that matters most.
The myth that more than 3 shots is necessary to establish "statistical significance" for a hunting rifle used only for hunting and within the most common distances, for me, is just laughable. But hey, it's their money, time, wasted components. The desirable benefit I see in that practice is just more trigger time, which is useful.
Thanks for the video.
Thanks for your comment
Because of skinny Barrels...
Skinny barrels dont matter…it just means you have to wait longer for them to cool. Get a barrel cooler and a temp gun if you really wanna test it. Its also a great idea to try fast fire strings to see what impact barrel heat has on your load and groups.
@@orr89rocz Not really though. Thin barrels do heat up quickly, but they also cool quicker. I use an external fan and an internal barrel cooler fan to cool both the inside and outside of the barrel at the same time. Cools down much quicker that way. Also temp guns don't get accurate reading from barrel steel, especially Stainless Steel barrels. Paint a spot on the barrel and it will give a much better temp reading from your temp gun. :)
@@Rico11b i meant wait longer between shots to allow it to cool. But it still takes a long time once they heat soak if only using air fans to cool, esp in warm ambient weather. But what is considered warm or hot varies between ppl. I can do 4-5 shots in a 1” barrel blank and there will be no heat in it. Pencil thin model 7, its usually 2 shots and a wait for the 3rd. Usually I’ll wait after 1 shot for a bit to fire the second.
@@orr89rocz That's true. For me, too hot is when I can't hold on to the barrel. If I can't grab it and hold on then I let it cool. I use a high speed fan blowing down the length of the barrel to cool the outside and a high speed blower with a tube attached to blow through the chamber and down the inside of the barrel. This combo moves a tremendous volume of air. It's cools quickly even on a really hot day. On a cool day, you hardly need it.
@@orr89rocz To a certain degree yes but I don't think 9 or 10-shot group in a short amount of time would be relevant for a skinny barrel compared to a bull-contoured PRS competition one. But 10 shots are common within a PRS comp stage since you do not have time to “cool” the barrel within a 90 or 120s timer on .
You are right on the money as far as I am concerned. I am 76 years old and I can not remember the last time I fired more than one shot big game hunting. Varmint hunting and target shooting is another matter.
Yep
3 shot groups are absolutely more than adequate for hunting rifles. It depends on the rifle whether someone should shoot 3, 5, or 10 shot groups. An even better idea for a hunting rifle is a one shot group over several different days to truly determine cold bore impact because most hunting rifles never require more than one shot as long as a good shot is made.
You can only do the best you can, always someone will do better than yourself, but that is in everything in life, but also people do a hell of a lot worse than you do to.
Do what you are comfortable doing, it's coming out of you're pocket no one else's.
I would agree with you 100% Austin. 3 shot groups are enough of an indication of whether your rifle likes or dislikes any particular load combination without wasting valuable resources. I bought some rifle powder in my area several weeks ago and it was $65 a pound as I’m sure you are aware of! $80-100 for a box of bullets is ridiculous, also! The only time I would suggest going with 5 shot groups is when you are honing in on a load, after you have established that your rife shows potential with that load combination with a prior 3 shot group and, it’s a load you want to go with. Good content as usual Austin. I would definitely like to see more 257 Weatherby Magnum load content on your site from time to time if you don’t mind my suggestion. God Bless.
For a hunting rifle, 3 cold bore shots are what one should do. If one can consistently shoot in their target's kill zone on the first shot, that is enough. The "grouping" is to determine if the hit meets the aim. If one aims at the same point and the bullet is consistently hitting x-distance from the aimpoint, corrections should be made to bring the hits closer to the aim. Some of my hunting rifles get quite hot after only 3 shots and the groups seem to expand from that point onward, but once cooled they send that first shot pretty first to the earlier one. I can imagine how hot a 340 Weatherby gets after 3 shots with half again the powder in a 30-06 load.
For target shooting rifles, the rifle should remain consistent for the course of fire.
What your doing is fine mate, don’t stress on the comments, just keep doing you, cheers Yogi ✌️
Amen brother! Couldn't agree with you more.
I agree with you 100%, Austin. I load both ways, meaning for hunting and for long range. But, as you pointed out, different rifles for different jobs. I’m happy with .75” groups out of my .338 because that’s still minute of heart at 400 yards, the maximum I intend to use it for elk. I’m not happy with .75” from the 6.5 Man Bun because that’s 7.5” at 1000 yards. Still minute of pie plate, but you get the idea. I’m not happy with .5” groups out of the .223 or .22-250 because that’s still 2” at 400 yards and can easily mean a miss at a small varmint. Different job, different tool, different requirements. Don’t let Fudds or Armchair Keyboard Warriors ruin your perspective. You’re not running Mawhinny Magnums at 2500+ yards. Not everyone needs a Bugatti to buy groceries.
Here’s my perspective. Your mileage may vary. But I’ll generally develop an acceptable hunting load under 1 MOA. As time and resources permit, I’ll incrementally adjust that load until I get it as good as I can get it. That load goes into a book. Next season I may try a new bullet or powder. Rinse and repeat. Sometimes you find a very accurate load that is easily verifiable and consistent. It moves into position number one. Sometimes that original load remains in position one for a long time.
There’s a big difference between acceptable accuracy and expectable accuracy. I expect my varmint guns to do .5 or better because that is their expectable job performance. I accept that my .338 does .75” and is acceptable for its intended purpose.
This video placed you on top as far as I’m concerned. I’d much rather hear your realistic perspective than have to listen to some snob who’s never shot at anything but a piece of paper.
Well said. I've been preaching that for 50 years especially the cold bore stuff. I have went so far as to shoot 1 bullet a day for 3 days to verify cold bore zero
Amen brother. I do a two shot group. Only two shots that matter.
@MTCKIE68 If I am "surprised" by anything at all. The distance will be 20 yards or less. If I print a 2 shot group at 100 at 2 inches. Probability of a miss at 20 yards is "ZERO". WILL A THIRD SHOT
GO 2 FEET HIGH AND 3 FEET LEFT, I THINK NOT.
@MTCKIE68 what does any of that have to do with a 2 versus 3 shot group?
I will hit what I am aiming at wether I shoot a 2 or 3 shot group. Perhaps you may be the one that doesent know what a gun does.
@@MTCKIE68 you are grabbing at straws
I LIKE 🧀 CHEESE
Agreed on all points as a hunting reloader.
Good video. Some of us only need the 3 shot groups as hunters. As long as my hunting rifles perform well at that point I’m happy with them. Your definitely right about r22 and imr 7828 both are very difficult to source these day. I was lucky yesterday and was able to trade into 2 more pounds of r22 it helped make my day.
Lucky
Agreed 100%. Every hunting rifle that offers a moa guarantee is in a 3 shot group not a 5 shot.
Thanks for watching
I just took a class and we were held to 2 shot attempts at a target because usually that is all you get. For magnum loads I would only do 2 shot groups anyway with a thin barrel. You will consistently get better groups. Nothing stopping you from repeating the two shot groups after cooling down.
Thank you for the realistic perspective! I'm an amateur reloader myself, but I did a buuunch of research and spent a decent amount of money on trying to develop loads for my 7mm-08 and 30-06. My groups were (and still are) averaging ~1.25 MOA and it was very frustrating because people always say that reloads are "SUPPOSED to be super accurate", and I'm sure they can be! but I was persistent on trying to improve my reloads and ultimately went spiraling down this path of disappointment... After so much frustration I finally 'woke up' and arrived at the same points that you mentioned in this video. At the end of the day, I'm just an occasional hunter that will not shoot past ~350 yds. I'm now able to be at peace with my ~1.25 MOA reloads haha. All the points you make in this video are valid!
Did your guns ever get a sub MOA group?
@@ReloadingWeatherby oh they definitely do sometimes. For example, on a typical range day, I would fire a fouling round and then I'd shoot three 3-shot groups. One would be 1.1ish, one would be 0.7ish, and the last would be 1.4ish. All of my groups average out to about 1.25ish MOA. I'm also letting the barrel cool in between groups.
Tbh I think ME, the shooter, am also imparting an additional .25 MOA to these groups. I'm shooting off of my hunting pack with a cheap rear bag - I can't quite isolate the accuracy of JUST my ammo... I watch Whoteewho shoot excellent groups all the time, and it makes me wonder if a 'shooting sled' is a huge part of the reason why. Not trying to discredit him tho! You'd still need a good trigger squeeze even with a sled!
@@richardc553 That's pretty normal. What you strive for is to find a load the gun really likes... where the worse group is around an inch instead of 1.25 or 1.5 inches.
I think top tier factory ammo is hard to beat and I’ve been reloading for a long time. Factory ammo is a lot better than it used to be. All my guns are 1-1/2” guns. Sure I’ve shot some tiny groups but plenty of big ones too. I think your rifle is shooting just like every one else’s.
Bro I shoot three shot groups and sometimes less. I’m confident enough once I see I hit the same spot twice the third shot solidifies my skill.
Thanks for commenting
I always dig your videos and agree with what you’re saying here too. You put it out there and do your piece. To heck with them haters! 😂
Thanks for watching
Those are all really good reasons to me. And for people that have something negative to say about it, we have the middle finger emoji lol
Please keep going as you are now.
Been shooting for years, did Bisley and service rifle competitively for 30 years. Never saw/experienced the necessity for 10-15 shot groups. Our load development was first 1 shot ladders, and then 3 shot group tests. And only the final load or maybe 2 loads were then pushed for larger groups.
I am so over the keyboard warrior/professors.
They will always know more, be better, are more awesome than mortal humans. They exist by jumping to non-existing conclusions.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Keyboard Commando's always have something to complain about.
"No we Don't !"
3-5 cold bore shots for me..I always try to end on a good note before hunting to help with confidence in the rifle.. they will never be perfect
Thanks for commenting
I couldn't agree more! 😊
That was an awesome last 3 shots. Thanks for sharing.
I am still planning on try to reload my 270 win to shoot 165 grain Accubond long range bullets and see if I can get them to stabilize in my Browning X-bolt.
Only time I do anything more than 3 shot groups if I have a two close and one separated from the group. I normally follow up with one more to see if the bullet is tracking in a linear line.
If you have tracking, means memory in the steel of barrel that was created during manufacturing is beginning to show.
I do three shot groups because ammo is expensive
My dad's Ruger American does same. Ruger told us to let barrel cool after 2 shots. 10 15 min. all 4 touch. They told me its the barrel harmonics change with temp.
Thanks for sharing!
Well that mean Ruger has terrible barrels. A well built barrel should not have poi changes due to heat (too a point) A barrel should shoot consistent well past the point the barrel is untouchable.
The three shot group has become an industry standard. If you have a firearm that cannot maintain under 1 inches within three shots, there’s usually an issue. I think that’s why it has been accepted. However, 10 to 15 shots will tell the true tale of a firearms capabilities. I shoot competition. I judge my zeros off 3 to 5 shots. I have never had any issues, making connections on targets out to 600 yards And it not be my fault. Most people complaining don’t shoot past 300. And some people complaining do bench rest competitions and are justified in doing so. However, they need to understand there are many different genres of shooting.
Thanks for your comment
I agree with all points, especially the hunting rifle angle; how many hunters need more than 3 shots? And the first is the most important, always! Thank you!
Thanks for watching
Spot on! The availability of things makes load development costly an time consuming an as you said as long as the cold bore is where you want it for hunting that's the most important.
Yep!
Completely agree with u on this one been saying this for yrs i let my bore cool Completely ice cold in between shots
I'm with you...keep up the good videos.
Thanks
You're one of the very few guys I watch on RUclips. Like your approach and your taste in rifles and cartridges. Just ignore the Hornady fan boyz they are the worst sometimes lol.
Thanks for watching
If my HUNTING rifle would always shoot two shots almost touching and third one is always a flyer I would be 100% tickled pink about that, that a good rifle.
Well said!!!
New Brunswick Canada 🇨🇦
Thanks Andrew
The meaning of Accurate depends on the type of shooting you do. My hunting rifles i use 3 shot groups, my target rifle I use 5 shots.
Thanks for commenting!
Excellent Video, 100% correct. As a hunter myself, my 1st cold bore shot is my most importantwith a possible but rarely happens a follow up, on mid to large game.
I only shoot 3 shot...unless...its a varmint rifle where i might be doing a,lot of shooting with a hot barrel. 3 shot groups with big game rifle perfect
I agree with you man!👍 I feel most of us on here are hunters interested in other calibers. I would also add that the 3 shot groups you post are confidence with that slinger going into a hunt! That super model Mark V tho😍😍😍
I agree mate and it's about time someone said it. If a reloader/hunter can't understand what's happening from a handful of three shot groups on a given load, they're not paying attention.
Thanks for commenting
Agree 💯 keep up the good work 👍🏻
Three shot groups are standard fare. Can you shoot more, sure but you’ll actually end up at about the same place. Most of the time it is the shooter behind the rifle that is making the mistakes when more shots are used. 3 shot groups are great when you’re working up handloads on a hunting rifle. Austin, you’re on the right track as you well know!
Thanks for your comment
I have a request for a video. I realize it’s not related to this video, but here goes;
I’d like to see one on the economics of reloading. For example. If I wanted to fire a 95 grain 6mm bullet at 2800 fps I could go with a 6mm ARC stuffed full of an expensive powder, but perhaps it’s also an option to choose a .243 Win or 6mm Creedmoor and use a little more of a less expensive powder. There is also the effect of that on barrel life. Perhaps a lowe pressure load with more powder could achieve the same objective?
Also, what is the cost and value of small rifle primers vs large rifle primers? Will a large rifle primer paired with a short barrel allow you to run a little less powder for the same max pressure, and get fuller powder burn in a short barrel?
I see a lot of videos of people trying to get the best velocity out of a cartridge, but I would like to see a video on getting the most energy down range for the least cost.
Cold bore 1st shot the one that counts 😊
Austin, this ranks at a minimum of top 3 video ive seen when its pertains to hunting and rifle accuracy. Sure, occasionally i shoot 5 shot groups with my 6.5 cm or my other rifles, but 3 shots will generally tell what you need to know. And that is whether a particular load is repeatable or not.
Thanks for watching Brian.
Great take
Thanks
Some days a guy shoots right on the money but some days it’s a struggle
Big game rifles I shoot 3 shot groups because I habe never needed more than 1 shot 99.9% of the time. Varmint rifles I'll shoot 5 shot groups just because I use less powder and the projectiles are cheap. Keep up the good work
High entertainment value in this video. You keep us engaged for the entire video. Great job.
Well done!
Thanks
It makes me think they made that podcast to make you buy more of their product.
Haha yep
That first shot out of a cold bore is the most important.
If you don't give that barrel 15 minutes between shots, the group will expand because the barrel hasn't had the time to retract from the heat.
Thanks for watching
False...but do whatever makes you feel good. A well built stress treated barrel should have no issue putting together multiple shot strings before cooling.
@@wcb5890 I've never had a perfect barrel
Completely agree, if you are a hunter you might carry that rifle for days on end. When you do pull (squeeze) the trigger, it is only shot 1 that will count (and needs to count) if you know where the cold bore shot will land.
Knowing where shot 10 in the dispersion will fall becomes immaterial if you cannot put it in the vitals with shot 1.
If you cannot kill with shot 1 you are reliant on accuracy by volume.
@@wcb5890 I've never seen a barrel that doesn't expand from the heat. I haven't ever even heard of a steel that didn't expand from heat.
Please tell me what steel doesn't.
I agree with you and most rifle manufacturers only give 3 shot MOA because of the barrel most of us are like you can't afford to shoot good hunting bullets that much
Thanks for watching!
Absolutely right on the money. 3 shots verify hunting accuracy. Load development accuracy. And economy, we all shoot quality bullets and have a moderate investment in each shot string
I think 3 shot groups are fine when you’re exploring. When it comes time to validate a load you intend to use in the field, I think a few different 5 shot groups in different conditions is a good test to know if a load will perform. I think just make it clear that this is testing and don’t present it like a load is totally wrapped up from one 3 shot group (not saying that you ever go that far). If you have a load for a gun already then just clarify this is just load testing for fun and you’re not looking for a hunting load and most people will probably get off your back about it. Load testing with different bullets is fun even if you’re not intending to use for more than range work. It’s still practice and there’s always a chance you’ll stumble on a banger load that’s so good you can’t ignore it.
I don't disagree, though for me (as someone who ALSO plans on reloading) I think it depends on the phase of your shooting.
For load developing/truing, I would want multiple 10 shot groups for a given load (maybe 30-40 rounds total, moving on when its obvious something is wrong).
For skill and accuracy of YOURSELF, then I think 3 shot groups are perfectly fine, especially for the hunter types. I'm personally more interesting in Target/Comp shooting at range, so I would probably want to develop skills in long range precision, follow-through, and recovery for a follow-up shot and so should probably shoot more per string
Thanks for commenting
I agreed with you on cost and availability. I only 3 shot groups. 1/2-3/4” is good for me.
You do you,I personally love your channel
I appreciate that
I always do 3 shot groups mainly because I was taught by my dad back in the early 70s, and as you said, I'm a hunter .Anyway, great stuff 🤠
Thanks for watching!
Excellent, thank you.
Thanks for watching!
I have a 340 Weatherby. I only shoot 3 shot groups…..because I hunt elk. I don need more than 3 shots!!!!!!
10-shot groups at a minimum for actual accuracy testing.
Yes!
Yes you need an appropriate amount of data. Controlling variables for 'actual accuracy ' is also important. In which case wouldn't 10 shots with the same barrel conditions give you the answer you're looking for?
Hunter reason is for me
Excellent topic. Well explained, the fact that we need such a video is more troubling than the explanation of it. We all should do ourselves. We should do what we like to do for our own reasons. We're not hurting anyone harming anyone altering anyone's anything, it's called America. You do you fella? I'll do me how boring we would be if we all were exactly the same for the exact same reason. 🙏🙏❤️🩹🙏🙏
Thanks for your comment.
exactly correct..on hunting barrels, heat is real problem and shooting magnums after 3 shots your barrel is moving and changing. a huge waste of time and money to push your barrel into excessive heat just to test 5-10 shot groups. In a hunting scerario 2 shots is the most common.. It is like shooting groups in archery> do you think the deer or elk will stand there until you get your 5-10 shots at it? like you practiced all summer..If you can't hit it on the first shot? why bother shooting at all? Yes things happen out of your control and maybe a 2nd shot happens, but it is not something to believe in.. cold bore/1st shot has to be right or go to safeway for meat.
Thanks for watch by
Glass bedding makes. It more accurat
One 3shoot group doesn't say anything when you do a load development, but it can give you some hint of what the gun like you need to confirm that with many 3shoots groups or 5shoots or 10 etc ...
People dislike it because you think you found the ultimate load after 3shoots and one type of powder, next time i shots like shits because the first time you tested it was a lucky group etc
Hence why I do the load over and over... to make sure it still shoots well.
Bingo! One sample is not enough. Had this happen to me many times. What you need is repeatability. Shoot 3 shot groups is fine, and if it does that several times across different days then you know you found something.
I only take cold bore shots . It take me hours to complete ten shot group
Thanks for watching
My 2506 in ruger number 1 3/8 groups. With 110 grain sierra's with 4350
Don't feel like you have to defend yourself and your good content. Your attention to detail in reloading and ballistics is still leaps and bounds ahead of most keyboard warriors. At the end of the day our goals as hunters is to take game as closely as we can, as accurately and as ethically as we can, and dispatch the animal with as few shots as possible to reduce suffering and meat damage.
Thanks for commenting Mark
yes as a hunter only cold barrels shots count and if your not shooting past 200/300 yards you don't have to be so picky about sub moa groups, the lethal zone is much bigger than that and the expansion of bullets is there to correct this margin of error, but It's still smart to be picky about our results because it's always better to have too much requirements than not enough.
( and if I take myself for example I shoot 3 bullets one by one every 10 minutes for my groups, to be sure that my barrel is cold,thing that I repeat 2/3 times, I often spend 2 hours at the shooting range for 6/9 bullets shots, so it's certain that for a RUclipsr it's neither profitable nor fun for the viewer.)
i only do 3 shot groups because i do not own an armoury and can not afford to screw a new barrel on every year. to the 5 shot gang, i say, you do you. mine rifles will last longer than i will. it is, in fact, your first shot that matters most.
Even Jayden from Hornady says that for hunting rifle he only does three shot groups. But certainly more than just one of them
Even the lead ballistician on those video says he uses only three shot groups for hunting rifles, just not only one of them
5 or 10 shot groups give additional opportunities to have variability in ammo and gives you more opportunities to make an error in your shooting. opening up groups because you shoot more may have absolutely nothing to do with the rifle.
Thanks for watching!
Yeah it's true 3 shot groups aren't enough to tell who whole story but the smaller the group is the more valid a lesser shot count is. You can always just stack groups too 5x3 shot groups is the same as a 15 shot group. Fliers and cold bore always count as part of the group as well.
The number of shoot in a group depends upon the rifle. Barrels length , diameter, and caliber.
A flyer is win something in the cartridge is not consistent with the other ones that was fired at that time
I do 5 shot groups, but I repeat them 5 or 6 times to get an idea of dispersion. But what most people don't understand, is that, rifles like anything else operate on gaussian distribution, and unless the load is just absolute garbage with a completely incompatible bullet/powder/cartridge combination, at hunting distances, it doesn't matter. Most pencil barreled hunting rifles average about 1-1.5moa, with some able to operate in that 3/4 to 1-1/4moa realm of dispersion and it just is what it is. Accept it, move on, and save the components.
Thanks for your comment
20 shot groups! 😮$$$$
For hunting if your first shot is on that’s all you need for verification ❤. The more you shoot the more chances of user errors.
Thanks for watching
Sporting rifles don’t need more than a three shot group … they over heat and impact changes
I don’t understand why people are so resistant to this your groups are too small video by Hornady. It’s valuable information for anyone that is trying to work up an accurate load. I know plenty of guys that fire one shot at a paper plate before deer season and call it good and that’s good enough for them. Make fun of us hornady fan boys all you want but I appreciate what they’re doing.
I'm not upset at Hornady at all. It's interesting info. But now I get constant comments saying I need to do 20 shot groups to really see what my gun is doing. That is very applicable for precision rifles in competitions. It's just a waste of barrel life and components on a hunting rifle
Yeah shooting is expensive. I don’t go out to much unless I get drawn for a hunt
10 shot groups in any magnum is expensive and going to wear barrels faster
A bad 3 shot group is still a bad group. A good 3 shot group just means I’m close but need more data.
30 shots as 10, 3 shot groups is the same amount of components as firing those 30 rounds into a single group or 3 groups of 10.
I personally can’t afford to waste my components turning money into noise and not getting good data out of the deal, so I will keep shooting 10 shots as my minimum for a group.
Whatever works for you
Thats why I do 3 shit groups my self. I even go as far as let my rifle cool down for 5 to 10 minutes between shots. It just depends on the temperature. I got lucky about a week ago and found a pound of RL 22 at my local shop. Paid $75 for it. But my 280 Remington loves it with 160 class bullets.
75 bucks!!!! Holy hell! I haven't bought powder in years..wow it's gone up
@beavisbrowne3497 all the Hodgodon powders they had the shelf were around $50 a pound.
@mikebowerman5078 wow!!
I have that same problem I will get two touching then pull one to the side. Think it’s mental for me get all excited that there grouping so good throws me off .then I end up sending two more and they go back where I want them two.flyers happen that’s why we practice.Maybe it all these guys shooting 30 shot groups is why powder prices are so ridiculous right now! How are the rest of us supposed to afford to have fun!
Thanks for watching
Not to be a Hornady “defender” but every time I can remember when they spoke about 15-20+ shot groups it’s from a competition perspective and MAYBE a long range hunting scenario. If you’re competing at a national level then they’re likely spot on, or if you’re a guy that intends to shoot animals at 800+ yards they’re probably right. For most hunters inside 400? Not necessary
I type that out and then you started talking about the same thing 😂
Hornady also has a monetary interest in telling people they need to burn through more shots for data. 😅
I feel 5 shot groups for a hunting rifle is a waste of ammo. If you need 5 shots to kill something you shouldn't be hunting. I use 3 shots for hunting rifles and 5 shots for target or varmint rifles.
Out of curiosity, what is your personal yardage limit when shooting big game?
400 yards
For a big game hunting rifle there's no need for more than a 3 shot group in my opinion. You're not likely to shoot more than 3 shots at a time while hunting big game so what's the point in 5 or more shot groups. Magnums aren't meant for target shooting - they're meant for hunting. Maybe these jack legs who think you need to shoot 5 or 10 shot groups should come and shoot your 340 for you and pay for the ammo they shoot. I wonder if their opinion would change after that.