John Calvin vs. John Owen | What Is Calvinism? | Dr. Leighton Flowers |
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, discusses Calvinism with @ApologiaCenter. Is Modern American Calvinism as promoted by people like John Owen the same system that John Calvin promoted?
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• AC Podcast | EP 39 | P...
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Thank you Leighton for your work of love.
Brother Leighton, I'm daft as well, obviously, because I completely reject every claim of the blasphemous TULIP and its false gospel . Thank you for your dedication, brother. GOD bless you
Maybe we should start a club called the "daft theologians"
Divinely appointed for theology
@@4godisholy you may have something there . Lol .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 I’m daft. Count me in. How do I join?
Same here brother
It is impossible to maintain Calvinism with free will 😂😅😜
Matthew 14:29 And seeing the charging wind, he was afraid, and having begun to sink, he cried out saying, "Lord, save me!"
Point #2. Who cares about Capvin vs Owen. Do either have the power to save? Focus on Christ, not the fallen. Peter had the power to walk on water as long as he kept his focus on Christ. Same goes for us. We're we focus is what we worship. ❤
Sorting all of this out is challenging. I don't know that many I encounter who call themselves Calvinists are even clear on their definition. This helps. I think the TULIP is what many who aren't deep into it believe... until pressed on the contradictions and they start circling....
Before the TULIP there were five so called points of Arminianism (the regurgitated form is Provisionism). The fifth tenet of Arminianism was that the believer can never really be sure of his/her salvation. Is this where you are spiritually?
The TULIP was a Calvinistic answer to the five points of Arminianiam which were hashed out at the Synod of Dort around 1619, long after John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius were dead. Truthfully, there are perhaps a thousand points of so called Calvinism (correct term is Augustinianism) and if you are a Christian you believe in the vast majority of them right now. Read Calvin's Institutes and you will agree, especially what he had to say about prayer.
Leighton Flowers is tragically slandering one of he titans of Christian theology, John Calvin.
@@Gablesman888 nope. My assurance is in the cross of Christ alone. I was Lutheran for 15 years. My relationship with God has never been deeper than it is right now and I have been through trials by fire. I don't need a complicated systematic to explain scripture in ways the audience at the time wouldn't have understood it. Belief is not a meritorious work. My faith is in Jesus. I am His.
@@Gablesman888 the many points Christians agree on aren't the points that are being discussed. I have learned many things from Reformed scholars that I respect. However, I would be fully hesitant to talk to others as if one systematic is the standard to which everyone agrees or disagrees with. If you want to go back to the earliest universal councils, so be it... we really don't need to define ourselves through someone's opinions in the 1600's IMO, Especially in light of all of the resources and data that has informed biblical theology in the past half century or so. We should always be looking at scripture with fresh eyes, mining it for greater depth of understanding and for personal spiritual growth and maturity, IMO. Blessings in Christ.
@@Gablesman888 what, specifically, has he said that was incorrect in this video, if you would explain your slander comment?
@@newcreationcoachingllc6491 "We should always be looking at scripture with fresh eyes, mining it for greater depth of understanding and for personal spiritual growth and maturity, IMO. " That statement is true as far as it appears to go, but does not go far enough.
Charles Spurgeon said that Calvinism is simply historical Christianity. It is what the original Christians believed. The original Christians were those closer in time to the actual events of Christ's life. They were either the eyewitnesses themselves as described in the Bible or knew the eyewitnesses.
I want to know what they thought, what they experienced. No revisionism for me unless it follows sola scriptura. Christianity is not a waxed nose, but the Holy Spirit breathed out gospel of Jesus Christ. Which does not and will not change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
In what you believe as a Christian, you should be able to see what I call an unbroken chain of theological custody from Jesus, to people like Paul, Iranaeus, Anselm, through Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, all the way to today. [Note I left out gobs of names of holy men].
Arminianism (and its regurgitated Provisionism) starts with Jacobus Arminius in the 1500's. Arminianism is not taught in the Bible. There is no all star list of great divines connecting our Lord to our day within the Arminian camp unless you wish to include the Pharisees and Judaizers. LOL.
While the so called Calvinistic men certainly were divided on some issues (like baby baptism), they agreed upon and got salvation right and passed the good news down through time to our day.
Dr. Flowers hit the key point that Calvinism misleading people, thanks👍😊
And blaspheming God, making Him out to be a liar.
Thank you Dr. Leighton. God bless you.
Irresistible salvation is universalism , just on a smaller scale . With universalism , everyone is irresistibly saved against their will and with calvinism the universe of so-called elect are universally irresistibly saved against their will .
Right and in Calvinism, there is "no means" used other than the Holy Spirit. Nothing in Calvinism is useful or effective in anyone's salvation. Not any amount of light, not the behavior of Christians in the world, not even the Gospel.
You were picked before you were born, or you weren't. You are loved by God or you are not... contrary to do much of what the Bible says. 1Tim 2:3-4 🙏
@@Apollos2.2 Under Calvinism, salvation isn't even something attained through faith in Christ alone.
It's something attained through election alone, so under Calvinism, salvation is found in something outside of Christ.
Under Calvinism, a person is elected by the Calvinist god in eternity past to be regenerated (saved) so that they can have faith in Christ. It's all so incredibly backwards.
@@Apollos2.2 you obviously don't believe the words of biblical scripture .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 I’m confused.. wasn’t apollos2.2 being tongue-in-cheek in his comment? I took his comments as mocking Calvinism (and rightly so), unless I’m reading it wrong? Btw, I agree with Leighton, as I know you do too😇
@Born Again Believer I'm not sure now that you bring it up, brother . I'll have to look at it again . Thank you.
An obsessive theological mindset is probably the major devastating means against the effective work of His Spirit.
Yep, that's why we discuss the errors of Calvinistic teachings in moderation, because any false gospels certainly need to be addressed, but we are to also go out and share the Gospel.
It's good to see that, in addition to Soteriology 101, Leighton also does work in other areas of evangelism, so he can serve as a good role model in this aspect.
@@losnfjslefn8857 good analysis. Only problem I have is the word ‘gospel’ which is etymologically derived from ‘god news’. This word is likely Calvinistic in root. The good news is a term I prefer to use. I’ve had some Calvies try and tell me this phrase is derived from a regeneration perspective - ‘god spell’. Hard to know for certain so I just call Christ’s work the good news or repent and believe…
1 Cor 1:19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Brother Leighton. Calvinisms is an intellectuals religion. It appeals to the educated. That education built up the ego. Taught them rely on themselves. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Your not daft and just need more trust. Trusting Christ is all that matters.
DW: There is a degree of intellectualism within Calvinism. But - the Calvinist eventually is forced into various states of self-contradiction - simply because the foundational core of Calvinism - and what separates Calvinism from all of its alternatives - is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
And Determinism - as a belief system - (whether it is Atheist Determinism or Theological Determinism) is humanly impossible to be logically coherent with.
Sean Carroll (Theoretical physicist - Atheist Determinist)
-quote
Every person in the world, no matter how anti-free-will they are, talks about people *AS-IF* they make decisions.
Stephen Hawking
-quote
I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross the street. (Black Holes, Baby Universes and Other Essays)
Dr. William Lane Craig
-quote
Nobody can live *AS-IF* all that he thinks and does is determined by causes outside of himself.
Every determinist recognizes he has to act *AS-IF* he has option(S) to weigh, and can decide on what course of action to take….. (Determinism is unlivable)
John Calvin
-quote
“Hence as to future time, because the issue of all things is hidden from us, each ought to so to apply himself to his office *AS-IF* nothing were determined about any part.” (Concerning the eternal predestination of god)
So you can see - that Determinism - as a belief system - forces its adherents to hold the belief system as TRUE - while treating the belief system *AS_IF* it is FALSE
This *AS-IF* thinking pattern - can be observed as ubiquitous within Calvinist statements - which consistently appear as self-contradictions.
So yes - there are some Calvinists who *APPEAR* to be intellectual thinkers.
But the most popular ones are in fact popular within the Calvinist society structure- simply because they are experts at DOUBLE-SPEAK.
And Calvinism's DOUBLE-SPEAK is a byproduct of Calvinism's *AS-IF* thinking pattern.
Blessings!
@@dw6528 I copied those quotes 👍 There is a common thought which is sometimes proffered by those wishing to "get along" from both sides of the aisle on TULIP in a body of believers. It is said, "I believe you are saved, and you believe I am saved... what difference does it make how we believe we got saved?"🤷♂
However, it does 'matter' in my opinion. And here's why. Satan always looks for the weak link/s in each individual and he has just the right tool to apply for the job. He's been at it since the beginning. Calvinism is a tool, a perfect trap, devised to separate believers from trusting that God loves them, personally. It often attracts a certain type who find it hard to resist the temptation to 'know' something which others do not. Or those willing to trust and follow someone else making that claim. It's really very clever and offers the perfect plausible deniability... because "God did it to them" and they had nothing to do with it🤷🏻♂. They just don't know why he didn't 'do it' to you. They 'hope' he planned to, but if not, you'll simply bust hell wide open without a prayer.... for no other reason than to bring God more glory🤔🤔
Most 'Calvinists' were believers in Christ before they became Convinced of Calvinism. I believe it's true that affirming TULIP doesn't keep someone from being saved, no matter how confused they may become about "how" it happened. The problem is that doctrine undermines your personal relationship with God... It plants the seed of doubt that God might not really, truly, love you... personally. God is said to only, truly, love the "elect",(salvifically). But nobody can ever know who the lucky ones are ... not even the man in the mirror, or the children watching him shave. Once that seed of doubt takes root one can never trust that God really does love you personally.
In Calvinism, what a man believes about Jesus can only be what God has determined and unilaterally caused him to believe. This is because all men are said to be "born" unable to believe apart from God's specific intervention which is only by his predetermined eternal decree. BUT, this must also be true of those who seem to live and act as believers only to fall away at some point in their life... Consequently, that apostacy can only be God's doing, also by his eternal decree. It's called "evanescent/false/temporary" Faith. Which God gives to some and then removed later because he never really loved them in the first place. And John Calvin said their eternal punishment would be greater for having tasted 'some' Grace'. The problem is that after accepting the challenge to worship a God who will do that to some people... you never know if he's doing it to you....🤔
Perfect love casts out fear, but if you doubt the love God has for you is real, and wonder if the love you think you have for him will last, you cannot escape the fear of the consequences.
Satan may not be able to keep a believer out of spending eternity with God, but he can work to make their life Hell on Earth. Calvinism promotes the same lie he proposed to Eve in the Garden, "You can't trust God is being honest with you.... personally".
And it has the same effect today as back then. And Satan smiles.
Calvinism cannot help but bring God's character under question. Satan always attacks God's character.... always. If you find yourself defending the nature and character of the God you worship from the claims of your own doctrine... perhaps you should reconsider your doctrine.
Augustine and John Calvin did not invent the lie which evolved into TUILP. ... The fell for it.
@@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT DW: Good comments!!
Also - when a Calvinist claims that he is "saved" we need to ask what exactly is he "saved" from?
He cannot be "saved" from himself - because that would require a degree of human autonomy which he must be "saved" from. And human autonomy does not exist in to any degree in Calvinism.
He cannot be "saved" from eternal damnation - because a divine potter of Romans 9 created him to be a vessel of honor - and thus he was never slated for eternal damnation.
And then lastly - if a Calvinist asserts he is "saved" he should be reminded that his doctrine does not grant him any CERTAINTY of who the "elect" are - including himself.
Calvin's god specifically creates a large percentage of believers to be CHAFF. And he divinely deceives those believers - giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation - and they will some day wake up in the lake of fire.
Additionally - all of the promises to the believer within scripture - are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god - which in many cases is the exact opposite of the SECRET will of Calvin's god.
So when the Calvinist reads "you are loved" he has no way of knowing if the SECRET will of Calvin's god is the exact opposite.
@@dw6528 Too many people who have been convinced of TULIP haven't really thought it through. Preachers like Macarthur actually encourage them not to. He says Paul didn't even understand it.🤦🏻♂ They just throw up their hands and hope for the best. ... it's very sad.
@D W Thank you for your reply. But I must disagree. There's only 2 ways of life and death. The Calvinist trusts theologians rather than the Creator. Fear sells, Christ liberates.
2 Peter 2:3 In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.
MacArthur has sold how many books with his name and not Christ's on it? Mammon worship in the church is real.
If a Calvinist was on the mastermind quiz show and their specialist subject is Calvinism….they would fail miserably.
I’m finding that non Calvinists know more about Calvinism than the Calvinist.
Yup,exactly lol
John Owen, my most favourite theologian. His work on "The Glory of Christ" and "Communion with God" are one of the best book written. So balanced that Owen taught balanced Christianity. I don't think he will make a channel that talks only about Calvinism, because he is a theologian that taught all counsels of God from the Bible. Currently reading "Mortification of Sin". Should read it after reading "The Glory of Christ" that teach you to behold Christ by faith, and then by the power of Spirit, we should kill sin. John Owen basically focuses on Christian spiritual life. I hope Dr Flowers would focus on that as well, rather than anti Calvinism. How to behold Christ? How to commune with Trinity God? How to kill sin? How to deal with temptation? How to have assurance? I think John Owen did a great job on those topics. That makes me want to study Owen, Calvin, and other Puritans, for they taught Christianity, and how to be a Christian. I am primarily a Christian, secondarily a Calvinist. Hence, we need to learn to balance the truth.
pg 1 of Vol 1 of Calvin's Institutes, Calvin himself denotes "conscience" which denotes prevenient grace and our ability to know GOD and our wickedness. His own words throughout Vol 1 say the same. Good points, gents. GOD Bless
Have any of my provisionist friends out there had calvinist (grown children) who won’t allow their loving grandparents to sing certain songs to their grandchildren (ie: Jesus Loves Me This I Know… and Jesus Loves The Little Children? And also forbids the grandparents from reading the Bible and answering questions they may have biblically?💔🥺
I have heard of such things, but thankfully have not experienced them.
@@4godisholyit’s very painful and breaks my heart, to not be able to show my love in this way as a grandma 💔
@@bornagainbeliever1429 Your concern for your grandchildren speaks of your great love and care for them! I would recommend that you continue praying for them because you never know how God might answer your prayers. I used to consider myself a Calvinist but as I studied and learned more about the Word of God (with the aid of some non-Calvinistic teachers, too), my eyes were opened to the truth and I walked away from Calvinism. Keep praying for your children and grandchildren!
Also, be an example to them by demonstrating with your life that you don't have to be a Calvinist or an Arminian. They can see you as a biblical Christian/biblicist who loves God's Word and who lives accordingly!
@@angelt.5276 thank you my friend for your encouragement 🙏🏻🩵
@@bornagainbeliever1429 It's an honor to be able to share some encouragement with you! Have a blessed day!
You heard it here first. Not even Calvinists know what Calvinism is (by Gods decree of course). I wonder how many different strains of Calvinism there is? My guess is that that number TOWERS over the number of denominations.
DW: From my observation - a lot of the differences have to do with the degree to which one embraces EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
Imagine drawing a horizontal line - which we will call the continuum of determinism.
To the extreme left of the line - we have SEMI-DETERMINISM - where many things are NOT determined.
The the extreme right of the line - we have EXHAUSTIVE DETERMINISM where everything without exception is determined
Believers who reside on the left side of this line would be NON-Calvinists/Arminians/Provisionists etc
Believers who reside on the right side of this line would be Calvinists
But - each Calvinist must make a personal decision about where he resides on the continuum of determinism.
Those Calvinists who are classified as "Moderate" - are going to be on the right side of the line - but not too far towards the extreme end of the line.
Those Calvinists who are classified as "Hyper" or "Strict" Calvinists are going to reside somewhere closer to the extreme end of the line.
Each Calvinist will find a position on the line approaching extreme determinism - is a position that is unpalatable for himself
When he moves back down the line away from extreme Determinism - he eventually finds he is not emphasizing divine sovereignty enough.
He has to find a balancing point
A point at which he is emphasizing divine sovereignty sufficiently - but not so much that his god becomes the author of evil.
Every Calvinist resides somewhere on that line - of the continuum of Determinism.
@@dw6528 I agree fully hell I can restrict other peoples actions. My big line is the will.
I don't care if my actions are determined by everything but my will, as long as I can "WANT" salvation.
Now I do think that I am sort of free to act on my will in most scenarios, but not without restriction. I can will to fly away like a bird, but it aint gonna happen.
Thus we know God has so ordered reality to limit our capacity to act. However without that limiting we couldn't grow.
However as soon as you make anything else the determiner of the will (other than the agent) then you reject human agency, which to affirm would require human agency. Thus it is self defeating. It also requires a complete rewrite of most of the text of scripture.
@@malvokaquila6768 DW: There is a very interesting consequence to EXHAUSTIVE DETERMINISM - which is an epistemic consequence.
If there is no such things as a libertarian choice granted to the creature - then it follows - the human brain is incapable of choosing between TRUE vs FALSE on the matter of any question.
And since discernment of any [X] entails making a choice about whether that [X] is TRUE vs FALSE - it would then follow - the human brain does not have the ability to discern TRUE from FALSE on the matter of anything.
That would also be the case - in Calvinism's doctrine of decrees - because every perception which comes to pass within the human brain - has already been predetermined - and cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be.
in such case - the human brain is not granted the ability to choose between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything - because only one single predestined perception can be decreed.
if it is decreed that the brain will perceive [X] as TRUE - then the option of perceiving [X] as FALSE is not granted to the brain.
So we can see there are epistemic consequences of Calvinism which no Calvinist could find himself able to live with.
There are several different ways to define "Calvinism." 1) it is what Calvin himself taught and believed. 2) The "Five Points of Calvinism" (TULIP) as outlined by the Synod of Dort in 1618-1619, after both Calvin and Arminius were dead. 3) Reformed Scholasticism, as it developed in the late 16th and early 17 Centuries. There was also a kind of "Neo-Calvinism" represented by such figures as Abraham Kuyper. Reformed Scholasticism in some ways is like Provisionism, in that both rely very heavily on human logic and reasoning, although arriving as completely opposite conclusions. Calvin himself, however, was a firm Biblicist, who believed in the principle of Sola Scriptura, and devoted himself to the exposition of Scripture. Dr. Flowers' presentation here was actually quite good.
@@robertwheeler1158 DW: You may find of interest - Dr. Paul Maxwell's presentation: "Is New Calvinism a Theological Rip-Off?"
Dr. Maxwell reads both Augustine and Calvin in their original languages - as well as statements from current Augustinian scholars.
These highlight the dilemma which Augustine created for himself - and from which he was unable to escape.
And Calvin by adopting Augustine the way he did - became ensnared in the same dilemma
- and ended up relying on a tap-dance routine of double-speak - in an attempt to achieve a semblance of coherence.
Hi leighton I have a video request. Fundie Friday made a video about Jinger Duggar’s escape from her family’s cult but she has apparently left that for Calvinism. Her husband is a reformed Calvinist and the comments are very interesting because their are a lot of ex Calvinist commenting about it. Fundie Friday also talks about the 5 points. It’s interesting how she left her cult for a more Calvinist view. A couple comments said they left their cults also for Calvinism and that let them to completely leaving the faith because they didn’t feel the “guilt” of their sin anymore. That Calvinism was actually the catalyst for leaving their faith! I thought that was crazy lol
Alana L also does a great video on that subject. From Bill Gothard to John Calvin. Sad
Yes, those who read the Bible come to the same conclusions without ever reading Calvin.
How can God choose anyone to be something they are from the beginning? Applying the word "chosen" to those created to be the Elect makes no sense. Every time the word chosen appears in the New Testament it refutes Calvinism. No selection is taking place.
Always get the whole council of God
Revelation 22:19 (KJV 1900): 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
This verse depicts removal based upon a condition.
DW: What you are pointing to here is a byproduct of the fact that Calvinism is a belief system in conflict with itself.
For example - on the one hand - the Calvinist wants to say his god is the divine potter of Romans 9 who creates the vast majority of humans specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. But then in denial of that - the Calvinist will about face - and say that his god "saves" people from eternal damnation.
Well - logic tells us - you can't have it both ways.
In order to save [X] from being [Y] it must be the case that [X] was *OTHERWISE* going to be [Y]
If [X] was never going to be [Y] - then it makes no sense to save [X] from being [Y]
So if Calvin's god has to "save" people from eternal torment - then he must have made a mistake when he created them.
Which means - they must be "saved" from the mistake which he made.
What we begin to see with all these self-contradictions - is a square peg trying to make itself fit into the round hole of scripture.
In order for a square to fit into a round hole - it must no longer be a square.
Thus we have a system of self-contradictions
@@dw6528 love it. Very well put
I would strongly SUGGEST that you READ your Bible again sir.
@dw6528 Do you not READ in your Bible that: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved - 2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJV
I personally argue with the Calvinist you cited in agreeing with Calvin but not Owen. I've heard "sufficient-efficient" and "strict particularism" being used within reformed circles to describe the two views. What's confusing these days is that people use Owen's argument while actually affirming the sufficient-efficient view.
ST JOHN 3:16!❤️
JESUS IS RETURNING SOON! HALLELUJAH ❤️✝️❤️
The death of death in the death of Christ has NEVER been REFUTED.
Not all Calvinists are the same as the interviewer said. Arthur W Pink and Martyn Lloyd-Jones were criticised by hyper-Calvinists.
Iain H Murray, who wrote biographies of Pink and Lloyd-Jones, has a book on Spurgeon & the hyper-Calvinists (Banner of Truth).
Which is why I say its another gospel, I know that is a minority opinion. Calvinists ultimately believe in salvation by divine election. Evangelicals (Non-Calvinists variety) believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, Christ alone. Calvinists would agree with the statement they would just change the definitions.
I go back and forth on this idea. On one hand, when you examine the doctrine and really consider the implications of Calvinism, it does seem like another gospel. I sometimes even question whether a Calvinist who fully understands the system he is devoted to is even saved. On the other hand, if you listen to them talk about anything other than TULIP, whether they're preaching a normal sermon or evangelizing, they sound just like an authentic Christian. I don't think they can all be "wolves in sheep's clothing" so I really don't know...
I've been told by those who've read Calvin's writtings that nowhere does he talk about a conversion experience.
Which begs a question
Why should anyone believe anything he wrote?
@@jameswillison1527 I know several Calvinists, I used to attend a Calvinist church. It’s a gospel issue not a friendship issue.
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a Good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
While I do think this reason does explain some of the "you just don't understand Calvinism" objections, I think the more fundamental reason is that either the people explaining Calvinism to them are purposefully obscuring their beliefs (for example saying Calvinism affirms free-will), or they simply can't publicly own their own beliefs (for example God sending infants to hell).
Just ask them “So did Jesus mean each child has a guardian angel or just particular children? I’m confused, can you explain?”
Best to avoid all Calvinist camps
John Owen Vol 6 - study it!
Surely the bottom line of Calvinism is the man himself. If the tree is bad, the fruit must be bad.
oh the fear of God - may it fall on those who misrepresent the Father and the Son ...
Have tou two never read Jeremiah 1 or Galatians 1 on Paul's Conversion?
I know it’s not the focus of this particular clip and it might be a bit nit-picky, but…
There’s an accusation thrown around that Calvinists “worship” Calvin; yet at the same time we have Dr. Flowers here saying Calvinist don’t even read Calvin.
Is this another “both/and” and not “either/or” kind of things?
Who is saying that the Bible DENIES that we have a FREE WILL?
Anyone who as read the Bible
Please come back with a CLEARER message so that I UNDERSTAND what you are saying - Thanks.@@thomasthellamas9886
I would be a 4 point calvinist. Limited atonement is a reasonable inference, but it is not what Holy Scripture teaches.
Mr. Flowers They are only TWO belief systems. Call it what is is: Arminianism.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
{Galatians 1:8-9}
Calvinism is another (anti) gospel.
Yes - Different strands of Calvinism, Reformed Baptist, Dutch Reformed, Orth Pres, and Hybrids like John Mac.
Technical note: This vid repeats itself. Seems like a mistake.
I appreciate the Shorts format, but I recommend that the content is not repeated.
Can we debate? I would love it. I am a calvinist.
Mr. Flowers: How were YOU saved?
I just saw that he uploaded a video about Hames white, now it's gone. What happened?
James*
You seem like a good person to ask this question
I'm been thinking about the 7 miracles
In Egypt, the one I'm going to focus on is the 7th
God told the Jews to kill a lamb (Christ) and put the blood over there door (the blood covering of Christ) and the angel of death will pass over them and not kill the 1st born (1st is christ) but never told any one but jews , isn't this a form of a limited atonement ?
No not really god was at war with egypt.
The Lord came to SAVE HIS people
Use the CORRECT BIble:
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins - Matthew 1:21 KJB
Calvinism is confusionism.
Yes, It's Cognitive Dissonance on display
Mr. Flowers. You just CONTRADICTED yourself. You said WHEN he makes himself KNOW. Suppose he does not MAKE himself KNOWN - What then?
Theological determinism + libertarian free will seems to most closely match the plain meaning of the scripture to me. It's certainly problematic from a philosophical perspective, but I think you are eventually going to run into a paradox when you pursue understanding the intricacies of things that are not intricately explained in scripture. I think it's best to run into those paradoxes earlier so as not to wrongly interpret scripture with human reasoning derived from other scripture.
Greatly appreciate the fuel for thought on these topics. Exploring them is certainly a God-given blessing.
Those ideas aren't paradoxical. They are contradictory. God determines some things. Men determine some things.
@@peterfox7663 They're not paradoxical because one of them is false? Or can 2 contradictory things both be true without it being a paradox?
@@jaredbeiswenger3766 If two things are contradictory, both of them cannot be true. It cannot be true that God determines everything AND man determines some things.
@@peterfox7663 So you're saying paradoxes cannot exist because they are paradoxical?
@@jaredbeiswenger3766 I didn't say anything about the existence of paradoxes.
Your dividing line is correct. Fortunately, the Lord has predestined such thinking before the foundation of the world.
The Spirit of truth and error convicts of sin, but does not convict of false teaching. Prove this wrong. The log and specks in the eyes are false teachings and not sins. Jesus said this to a Pharisee.prove me wrong! We are called to love and not agree. Studying the scriptures thru the lens of one’s theology will always lead to error.
Bottom line, Calvinist theology, says God is dishonest
The simplest example is going God warned Cain
And told him he has a choice
Was he being genuine or not?
Leighton what is your doctrine of teaching be called by this 2023? Noncalvist doctrine? Non Arminian doctrine? Leighton doctrine? Maybe 100 years from now people would say, hey there is a true bible teaching in 2023 by refuting calvinism!
So we should just call most people "johnists" in "johnism" made by John calvin and John Owen
If a prophet saw men wearing sunglasses, what would you think he'll say? - I saw some people not all, are blind.
I would rather listen to 100 bible students, over one so called theologian.
There is a good reason why Jesus chose his Apostles not from the theologians of their day. Knowledge puffs up.
@Kolton Wood
No there is a big difference.
The bible student is taught by the Spirit of truth.
Today a theologian means that one has gone to a cemetery school and is called and even glorified as Dr. which is not Christian. We are not to use titles when addressing another person.
These schools do not teach the doctrines of Christ. With but few exceptions, they teach the Omega apostasy which is also the Alpha apostasy of an immoral soul.....ye shall not surely die.
For the wages of sin is death; (not hell;) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
{Romans 6:23}
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such *the second death* hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
{Revelation 20:6}
...
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. *This is the second death*
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
{Revelation 20:14-15}
The saints of the first resurrection of life.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, [hell] where is thy victory?
{1 Corinthians 15:55}
@Kolton Wood
I am not stupied. Niether am I a babe,
I know what the definition is., but in practice they follow the wisdom and the philosophy, and the traditions of men over God.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
{2 Timothy 3:7}
@Kolton Wood
Leighton Flowers is no exception.
He also teaches Greek mythology of the immortality of the soul, and an afterlife, and eternal punishment.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name [character] in vain.
{Exodus 20:7}
@Kolton Wood
The state of the dead according to the word of God.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof *thou shalt surely die*
{Genesis 2:17}
Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
...
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their *sleep*
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, *until thy wrath be past* that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
👉till my change come.
...
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
{Job 14:10, 12-14 & 21}
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my *flesh* shall I see God.
{Job 19:26}
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
{The Preacher 9:10}
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
{Psalm 146:3-4}
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he *sleep* he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."
{John 11:12-14}
...
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection
👉at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet *shall* he live:"
{John 11:24-25}
But go thou thy way till the end be: for *thou shalt rest* and stand in thy lot *at the end of the days*
{Daniel 12:13}
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him *should not perish* but have everlasting life.
{John 3:16}
And *the serpent said* unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die*
{Genesis 3:4}
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down *in the midst of the stones of fire*
{Isaiah 28:14}
^
(satan always turns the tables on God, for he is the father of lies.)
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
{Isaiah 33:14-15}
If anyone errors in their understanding of this doctrine of the dead, then they will in no way be led to the understanding of the truth, for it will be a stumblingblock unto the decernment of spiritual things, including soilterology and eschatology.
@Kolton Wood
Tell that to the guys who go by doctor.
What is a Calvinist? That label get thrown around today like, “I’m a woman.”I know exactly what Calvinism is. I was pointing to the fact that people simply IDENTIFY as a label, even thought they don’t k ow what it really means. John Calvin would or ably co wider most “Calvinists to to be heretics.
DW: Calvinism claims to be a superior theology.
But in order for something to be superior - it must have some attribute which is DIFFERENT from its alternatives
So in order for Calvinism to be superior - it must have some attribute which its alternatives do not have
In Calvinism's case - that attribute which separates Calvinism from all of its alternatives is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within Calvinism's doctrine of decrees.
However - what we find - is that each Calvinist will have his own personal liking or disliking for the EXHAUSTIVE nature of Determinism within Calvinism.
Some Calvinists are perfectly happy declaring *EVERYTHING WITHOUT EXCEPTION* is authored by Calvin's god including every sin and evil.
Many Calvinists however do not find that palatable.
Calvinists like John MacArthur and John Piper are very aware there are people in their congregations who will not find EXHAUSTIVE determinism palatable.
As a consequence ministers like MacArthur and Piper become DOUBLE-SPEAK artists - performing elaborate DOUBLE-SPEAK TAP-DANCE routines in order to keep everyone in their congregation happy.
God has said: You are DEAD in SINS and TRESPASSES. That is why he must QUICKEN you. Is Ephesians 2 not in the Bible you use?
calvanism is a self assumed salvation
DW: That is "Kind" of true. Every Calvinist goes about his office *AS-IF* he is elect - and thus saved.
But the doctrine strictly prohibits the Calvinist from having any degree of CERTAINTY of election or salvation.
According to the doctrine - the elect - are a divine secret which only Calvin's god knows.
Additionally - Calvin's god is the divine potter of Romans 9 - who creates a large percentage of believers to be CHAFF
Those believers who are created as CHAFF - are divinely deceived - given a FALSE SENSE of salvation - and will eventually wake up in the lake of fire.
Also - all of the promises to the believer within scripture - are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god - which in many cases is the exact opposite of the SECRET will of Calvin's god.
So when a Calvinist reads "you are beloved" within scripture - he has no way of knowing if that is the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god for him - and the SECRET will of Calvin's god for him is the exact opposite.
There is an obvious psychological burden the Calvinist bears - because the doctrine tells him he has a high probability of being SECRETLY created for the lake of fire.
I'm glad the True God bears witness with my Spirit and I know I am His Child and there is no doubt . calvanists can only assume and hope they are because they hold to a doctrine of Intellect and head knowledge
@@timsmith530 DW: Well said! But not only that. The Calvinist doctrine stipulates that he has no CERTAINTY of who the elect are - including himself.
And that Calvin's god creates a large percentage of believers - specifically as CHAFF.
And those CHAFF believers he divinely deceives with a FALSE SENSE of salvation.
They will go through their whole lives having FALSE PERCEPTIONS of being saved - and eventually wake up in the lake of fire.
Also - all of the promises to the believer are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of Calvin's god - which in most cases is the exact opposite of his SECRET will.
So when the Calvinist reads "you are beloved" in scripture - he has no way of knowing if the SECRET will of Calvin's god is the exact opposite.
What we know for certain is that Jesus commanded us to love one another. Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2 not to argue and divide over speculations we have no control over and don't even know for certain.
I Corinthians 1 says not to divide over such. Obey.
What John Owen has FORGOTTEN, you guys ain't learned yet.
I wonder what Jesus would have said if his disciples had got into debating and dividing over this.
Calvinism/Augustin didn’t exist in that day. This is a heart wrenching divisive religion. There’s no talking to them in a sensible way because they push back with their proof texts , so sure of themselves. It’s very extremely sad to see
Loved ones fall for such an obviously twisted gospel… which really isn’t a gospel, because “gospel”means the Good News! 🙏🏻
Sir i dont wanna bother you but im in the darkest valley of my life this i have been a Christian fr 2 years and adored God more than anything and i had a true Friend Who was with me wherever i go i always talked with Him and would hear Him regularly but then i ran into calvinism and no matter how much i watch of you or alana or others on this i cant see the truth and to be honest ill only accept an answer from God Himself because He is the One on trial here and i wanna hear His say but He wont answer me. I cant keep following Him if He is this calvinism God but that also means i will cease to go on living because God was the only reason i got this far. Im serious when i say i dont want my ticket punched yet but its gnna happen if i dont hav my God to get thru this life.........i really dont know what to do i now feel like God has chosen to slowly destroy me and alter me back into who i was an i cant stop it. Im so tired im losing everything i worked toward. Ive lost the will too keep going......what do i do. Im so sorry to bother you but this all has shaken me to the core i no longer fully trust the bible as there are some small inaccuracies which makes me question if its all realy written by God or corrupted by man and i cant trust anything people say because everyone is out for themselves. Oh i dont know what to do
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a Good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
@joshua I’m praying for you- Gods peace over you brother, I’m sorry you’re in such a low place right now💔 I’m praying He helps you read His Word without the Calvin lenses- I’m sure it’s very difficult- pray to Him before reading the Word, ask Him to reveal truth that only comes from Him… not Calvin, nor any other man! Ask in faith, believing He will answer you🙏🏻 don’t give up! You have brothers and sisters all over on this page who know what you’re going through! Btw, the devil is a liar, and he likes nothing better than to cause confusion in Gods children. I was also confused about certain things when some in my family started dropping Calvinistic bombs on me one at a time to slowly indoctrinate me, but the Holy Spirit in me signaled loud and clear that what they were saying was FALSE 💯 you will know it’s the Holy Spirit at work in you when this happens. When we are children of God(we’ve received Him, believe, have faith and trust in Him)- the HS resides IN us! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
You’ve got yourself painted into quite the corner. On the one hand you cannot trust the Bible, on the other you cannot trust men. I’ve been in a similar situation before so I know how it feels. Perhaps the only way out is through prayer. Talk to the Lord like you talk to a friend, even the doubts and crippling anxiety share it all. Before you know it he will answer usually in unexpected ways. The other option is just to place your trust in God. John 3:15-18 makes it about simple as possible and those aren’t verses that are in question. If you believe your saved, if you don’t your already condemned why because you have not believed.
@brad5392 i do believe so much so too the point where thinking He might not be the good God i thought He was, is crippling my whole life to the point of life ending circumstance. He was my deep friend before all this calvinism i literally shared everything with Him. On the way ta work, at the store, We'd go fishing on my days off God would even always get me the best hooking on the fish so it wouldn't hurt em.....i pray for the fish i catch. It may be weird but i love all life and will save a bug if i can.......I will pray and fight till i die and if He's Who i hope He is then i know HE WILL SAVE ME....i hope He's good because i cant live without Him. The Lord gives and He takes away He's God whether good or bad tho i hope He's good for all our sakes an im only a helpless 20yr old looking for answers . Thanks for yr reply it keeps me going
@@fadedhope5 To me that’s just a sign to reject that leaven ie Calvinism. The last thing God wants us to do is doubt him. Once people started listening to these Calvinists they get ocd worrying that they might not be the elect. Reject that teaching and ask God to restore your mind. God has not given us a Spirit of fear but power, love and a sound mind.
I don’t know who Greg cockel is but if he said he is a Calvinist snd believes in libertarian free will
He is either lying or completely decieved
I would guess a little of both