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EP03 Foam camper destruction testing - stronger than you might think
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- Опубликовано: 27 апр 2023
- I wanted to see how strong poor man's fiberglass would be compared to real fiberglass. Poor man's fiberglass is just an adhesive (paint or glue) along with canvas or cloth. It is a LOT LESS EXPENSIVE but has limitations. It is flexible, difficult to finish nicely, and it is not substantial enough to be able to fasten anything to it. I was actually impressed with the strength of the poor man's fiberglass but decided to go with real fiberglass instead. I want something that will look great and hold up for 10-20 years. Let me know what you think.
It might not have all the metrics people look for engineering purposes, but tests like these offer a good intuitive understanding of material properties. Thanks for this vid. :)
Thanks!
crap
People seem to be over critical of your experiment. I think your video is great. It allows people to get a sense of how strong foam can be with different coverings.
Yup. Thanks. I am considering doing another video at some time to show different methods of glueing the fabrics to the foam. I doubt that will have any impact on the bending strength because the fabric will still fail at the same tensile strength, but it would be interesting to see.
Awesome build!! I am just starting on mine and was conducting my own foam tests. Found that the pink 1” foam from Owens, also at Lowes/Home Depot has a higher compression strength, do it holds up even better. And I have experimented with drilling a 1/8” hole every inch and weaving a fiberglass strand through the foam, and then laminating it, can cut the weight of the fiberglass cloth used significantly. A 2.5oz cloth came out stronger than a 4oz cloth without the weave. I guess the woven strands through the foam (a very time consuming process though!!) prevents de-lamination and buckling of the fiberglass away from the foam. I think for long-livety of my camper I will take the time to weave the strands through the boards.
But thanks for your videos. Awesome info!!
I think that's a really smart idea. I had someone tell me that they thought I was crazy for only putting on a few layers of glass. He was adding 6 layers to his shell. Also, if you can find it, you can buy 250lb foam instead of the standard 150lb foam. It's made to go under concrete slabs and that extra density would make a stronger core.
I saw a guy use polyethylene landscape fabric with good results. The key is the multi-layer approach which puts one outer layer in tension and the other outer layer in compression. Using resin provides much more rigidity than primer, paint, or wood glue. Cedar strip canoes typically use 1/4" thick x 3/4" wide cedar strips with fiberglass cloth and resin on both exterior surfaces and the finished construction is quite rugged. Spar varnish is required to protect the resin from uv radiation.
Very good points. I like the long term durability of the epoxy too. I built a cedar canoe a few years ago and did a video series for that too. Planning to build another soon.
Love it I am in the process of trying to build a slide in camper for my truck and using foam and fiberglass
I hope it turns out great!
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 was thinking of putting wood for the load bearing base. And then interlock the foam similiar to another youtuber
@@xaploq1 yes. You definitely need something rigid to support the bottom. I used PVC boards just in case I ever have water contact. I don't want rot.
@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 never thought of the rot but would the resin at least seal the wood if I were to just use that as a sealer or encapsulate the whole base with resin and fiberglass
@@xaploq1 the resin should seal it, but I am just nervous that it might crack and let water in eventually.
The PMF would have done better if you had used the glue. You have to use titebond 2 glue and let it dry before you paint it.
Makes sense. We are still limited by the tensile strength of the foam. The best glue in the world will not help us there :)
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 I think I disagree. What gives strength is not the foam, but the skin. The foam has NO tensile strength worth mentioning. S what matters is the tensile (stretch) strength of the skin on the side away from the force.
But using paint to bond that skin seems like an exercise in futility. The skin is a combo of the material used and the way it is bonded to the core. Paint is not made to bond under stress or deformation. It has low adhesion. WTF did you use PAINT? Nobody else I have seen uses paint! Did you want o make it fail? Try again with what we all call titebond.
I have done only a few experiments and have no tub to thump.
I saw where they used titebond glue or Elmer's wood glue. Then paint. I think the glue would give the strength. The paint is for water proof.
Agreed. It would probably help some. From what I could see, the failure was not really because the adhesion failed. It was more because the epoxy/fiberglass is so much more rigid than the paint or glue would be. The PMF simply bent easier with compression.
zackly
Great very basic tests! I think had you poked some holes (even shallow ones) into the foam board and then put primer on all sides (edges included), then the cotton material (or even window screen material), I think it would have been even stronger. Just a theory here, but makes sense in my head. Thanks again for the fun video and hope your project turned out well!
Thanks. The choice of fabric really makes the biggest difference. Using canvas or screen like you mentioned will greatly improve the bending strength.
Great build saw all your vids, can't wait to see you finish interior. I saw one he did test sanding with different grits of paper. He used glass & epoxy. 40 grit looked to have the best hold. I'm designing a pop-up truck camper, plan on using glue & 8 or 10 Oz canvas due to cost. Glass & epoxy is VERY expensive here in Alaska. Hope to find local supplier for boat paint, but probably use Rust-Oleum for final finish $$
@BeardedToad-cd1ly Thanks. I bet the Rust-Oleum paint would turn out really nice. I know you can get additives for it so it rolls on smoother just like the stuff I used for boats. In my opinion, the final coat is the most important for poor man's fiberglass because you really need to seal everything up well. Water will be your enemy.
With PMF, you really need 2 dropcloths made from canvas and titebond 2 with a layer of paint on the exterior, also when trying to carry weight (camper floor) you want to block out the design as the foam is still foam (I'd use a double 2 pieces 1/2" foam with two layers of canvas on it and then some 3 inch pieces of half inch foam wrapped in canvas glued upright between them to add weight strength). Basically a set of PMF joists glued between a PMF floor and PMF base/foundation.
Yes. You can definitely make both systems stronger by modifying the shapes. Even so, we are always limited by the crush strength of the foam.
Would be interesting to see a 1/4" ply on one side and the fiberglass on the other.
My brother built his like that. 1/4" plywood with fiberglass on top of the wood. That makes it a lot heavier but allows you to fasten things to it easily. It's also a lot more durable that way.
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 He used 1/4 ply both sides? i was thinking 1/4 ply on inside and fiberglass on the outside. Do you have a link to his build or videos?
@@joec7325 he didn't video anything. Sorry. I don't even have photos of it.
Perhaps it's worth trying out PMF based on thin plywood.
It could work but PMF is subject to leaks and small cracks. I would be concerned about the wood eventually rotting.
Interesting results! Seems the compression strength of epoxy and fiberglass is what makes the difference? Neither outside, which is in tension, failed. Titebond 3 might have had better compression strength, but a lot of people seem to be using paint so I'd say this qualifies as poor mans fiberglass. In the comments you mention that foam crushes easily - but that's true for both fiberglass and cloth. More experiments would be required. Fiberglass and expoxy on one side and PMF on the other and test them both ways would be interesting to see, if anyone wants to give it a go...
The epoxy definitely adds rigidity. Much more than Titebond or paint would. They make a higher compression strength foam but it is harder to find.
Yes, you finally mentioned glue for PMF but on TOP of using the glue, if you use a perforation roller on the foam, then brush on the glue, then lay the material, let it dry, add another layer of glue, let dry and then paint with any good acrylic paint at least 2-3 layers (if you like, sand between each to get a smooth finish), THEN you actually have the PMF to put up against resin and fiberglass. Just saying!
I think that would definitely help, but I don't think the Titebond glue and fabric will ever have the same strength and rigidity as epoxy and fiberglass will.
If you laminate the foam with two inch thick steel, on both sides, you can stop that bb.
Perfect. Ha ha
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 😁
Thank you for this comparison. I hadn't seen a video directly comparing PMF to fiberglassed foam.
I am planning a teardrop camper build and I was thinking of making mine out of DIY composite panels. The panels would be made with 3mm Okoume/2" foam/3mm Okoume, fiberglassed on both sides. After seeing this video I'm wondering if the Okoume is even necessary for the extra rigidity. I keep going back and forth on using the Okoume or not because although it will add rigidity (and beauty) to the camper it also opens the door for potential wood rot.
I would probably make a small test panel and see how you like it.
So how would this have worked out using the epoxy with the linen? And would using linen save $$$ over the Fiberglass mesh?
The fiberglass cloth adds significant strength to the system but also adds significant cost. The epoxy is really only there to hold everything rigidly in place. You could use epoxy with linen for a harder finish than but you would not gain much strength. The epoxy would also help to make it more waterproof than the paint.
bad test, with pmf, you need water proof or at least resistant wood glue for the base layer, then you dilute and apply a few layers on top of the fabric, then you paint it. This is not PMF.
Fair assessment. But there really aren't any rules and regulations for PMF so it's hard to say what is right or wrong. My point in making the video was to show how strong the two methods are and the PMF did surprisingly well. If I was testing for water resistance, then it would be a totally different story.
I was curious what a snowload would be bc I dont have a garage . Building one of those would negate poormans fiberglass 😂
I never did any engineering calculations on the strength, but I would not hesitate to sit on top. My little teardrop is really strong. Snow would not be a problem at all with the fiberglass system I used. Not sure about the PMF.
@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 I was leary about the poorman without a garage but glad I came across your video. Closest i found to an answer. Definitely fiberglass or something else without good storage
@@Ketch22k agreed. I have seen a lot of PMF where they tore it off after 2 years because everything underneath was rotten. Good luck on your build.
I thought poor mans fiberglass was glue not primer. I am confused.
It can really be anything that sticks the fabric to the foam. I found that primer sticks better than wood glue. You should test that and let me know. I would love to see the results.
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 we just bought some stuff to test this week!
@@EagleRue Did you do the test?
Poor mans fiber glass is great for someone who is poor like me lmao
I get it. I keep the smallest scraps of fiberglass to use for my next project cuz I know it's really expensive.
You stCjed the brick differently on the fiberglass. Test FAIL.
You did not make the poor man's fiberglass a fair chance because you did it wrong you're not supposed to use paint as a bonding agent tidond 3 is what you should have been using
I was actually impressed by how well it did with just the paint. I'm not sure adding a layer of wood glue would make a significant difference in the compressive strength, though. The fiberglass does better because of the rigidity of the skin. Cotton cloth just isn't as strong as fiberglass.
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 I repeat what I said you did not give it a fair trial if you did you would see that the glue is far superior than the paint that you used
@@frankbowman22 You should make a video to compare the way you want so we can see how much difference it makes. I would love to see the difference.
@@kimdonaghyrealtor8238 this is the last comment I'm going to make to you about this subject because you are so narrow-minded you can't look at the dozens of videos that's already out there and you want me to prove and back up what I'm saying I don't have to because there's dozens of videos out there that already back up what I'm saying you are the one who is responsible to back up what you're saying exactly
Fiberglass and foam is a very strong composite. Same composite building fiberglass aircraft, like the well known long-ez (John Denver plane). You will spend a lot more money with the fiberglass technique.