I think any "generic" boss cards that belong to an archtype, should be stronger when played as part of that archetype. For example, having an effect that is only available if archetype cards were used as material.
Exactly! If Konami won't restrict decks from making each other's bosses, at least make their most powerful effects only accessible to their archetype! -Taylor
The new Lightsworn level 8 Synchro is a perfect example of this. The materials are actually generic but there's no reason to summon it outside of a Lightsworn strategy
Gotta say I really like this in depth discussion, many topics covered in 15 minutes. Hope you guys feel confident enough to keep these up every so often sprinkled in between meme duels, trivia, and staple or stinker. Feels like you're beginning to build some nice chemistry too just in time for the channel to get back off the ground. Big shout outs to Johnny in particular for some great and very well thought out insight. Anyways as for the topic, I think it's high time we hit overly good generic cards. Hand traps have power crept actual traps out of the game and we need to bring them back. To do that we need to ban or limit hand traps, and to do that we need to make turn 1 weaker and hit turn one boss monsters and one card combos harder. Plus we can errata some cards to be better. Why not give Baronne and Savage the clause that they require Fleur Synchron and Rokket Synchron? that's fair and it changes nothing about the cards themselves. Ya know, I get you guys probably don't have the same budget the MTG channel does right now, but something I'd love to see is you guys invite some rotating super stars of German Yu-Gi-Oh onto the show for talks like these. That's just gotta be one train ride and they're at the studio. Some cool guests would be Dinh Kha Bui, Dinh Kha Pham, Emre Kizilates, Julius Schwarzkopf, Lukas Jansenand, and hey how bout Kanak or some other German YugiTubers? Probably most of all I'd love to see Lampi and Leo, I just love those guys, they are fantastic at events. Other than that, I don't think there's any other profile big shot German Yu-Gi-Oh player I'm forgetting..... In conclusion.... Let's make Maxx "C" the first card you can have 4 copies of in your deck!!
I think due to the sheer strength of Fuwaross, it will see maindeck play despite it not being used going first. 50% of the time you'll be going second anyways. Purulia isn't strong enough to justify maindeck play, but will definitely be in a lot of sideboards.
I wonder which people would prefer, a discussion about the Spell Card: Monster Reborn, or a discussion about the Spell Card: Spell Card: Monster Reborn… -Taylor
If fuwa just affect ex deck summon… I think fiendsmith should have a restriction that you can not attack or just attack with fiend monster after resolving.
@@dragoran149 Even though, imo, there shouldn't be a Multcharmy for Extra since you can't play around it if you play a deck centered on the Extra Deck. With Purulia you can theorically play around it, by sending the monsters to grave and reviving them for example.
My thinking is that this is their attempt to unify the formats a bit more. They release these to TCG, see how the more niche and only-going second Maxx C versions look in the metagame, and if they like it more than what Maxx C makes the game look like in OCG, they will replace Maxx C with these hand traps in OCG. (Who would play the Deck-only card with Maxx C as well other than increasing the chance of drawing it going second when decks in MD already have a lot of card slots dedicated to Maxx C and counters?) In TCG people can side this into their going second games so they actually have a better chance of seeing how impactful the card is when going second.
Definitely some interesting strategy at play for the future of the OCG/TCG here. Sadly, I am not very optimistic the mulcharmy's will impact the meta very much since they can only be played going second, but you never know what could happen! -Taylor
We are already getting tournament results in from the OCG with Fuwaross legal and the vast majority of decks that run Maxx C also run some number of Fuwaross in their lists, and it seems to be trending out of sides and into mains. Granted that is with only 2 days of events so far, but checking lists and watching Fuwaross go from 2-3 ofs in sides in decks from the 27th to 3 ofs in mains in lists from the 28th is telling me the OCG is embracing "Maxx 6".
I think the problem is that Konami wants to try to fix the game without really changing it. This is despite the fact that formats like GOAT, Edison, Speed Duels, etc. have become more and more popular BECAUSE of Konami's choices. It's really gotten to the point that no matter what they do, they're bound to upset people. Reigning in the power level of new cards is setting up to ban the powerhouses and some people will definitely have a negative reaction to that. Embracing the power creep further is just going to build towards another Tier 0 format like with Ishizu Tearlaments, and again, people will definitely have negative reactions to that. The fact is that the only way to fix it at this point is to fundamentally change SOMETHING. Maybe that means finally instituting a format system. Maybe it means changes to the rules. There are a variety of potential solutions, which is another discussion entirely, but the point is that fixing this requires more than a few minor tweaks. The entire franchise, from the card game to the associated media surrounding it, needs an overhaul.
You might think that is funny until konami make more broken board set up archetype to make a point that you need maxx c and multichummy resolve. Fiendsmith, gimmick puppet and snake eyes are their points, built in ftk engine and ultra resilient archetype, that is how yugioh ran in ocg since 1999, create a problem then sell the solution, exodia being problem? introduce handrips now in the current day with board set up and other decks become a problem? introduce chummy because maxx c isnt enough people dont play them? create more broken board set up
I generally agree with the generic extra deck staples, but occasionally I love these cards. Generic extra deck negates? Gotta go. Get rid of them. And maybe this is a little hypocritical, but i love generic cards like IP and SP.
The extra deck having generic tools is fine as long as they aren't too powerful! Stuff like the knightmares were used for a long time but felt really fair to play against. Once you cross that line of power and have cards with multiple negates than any deck can easily summon... well... then we have a problem. -Taylor
@@dudono1744 I would say IP is why this card is kinda broken though. Without IP, SP is still an incredibly powerful card, but the context it is broken in is entirely because of IP. Out of the two I would say IP is more bannable not only because of the SP interaction, but because shes broken a number of other cards as well.
Ok here is the “generic” boss monster issue, if we get rid of all the generic boss monsters then Konami actually needs to support archetypes to actually be viable. Look at mimighoul, vaylantz, melodious, solfachord, kuriboh, shining sarc,and even more rogue decks, what do they end on in comparison to stuff like branded, labrynth, voiceless voice, tearlament, kashtira, the list goes on.
I really love Yu-Gi-Oh as a game, I think the loop is fun. But the current way games just end within a couple or a few turns is really boring to me and I do hope they are going to slow games down again.
Oh please, Standard is probably the worst format right now and that's saying something since modern and commander have been so dummy power crept. Like, while Yu-Gi-Oh is having some problems right now this is probably one of MTG's most oppressive formats in a long time and rotation has not slowed it down. Rotation did not slow this down at all. most decks in standard these days are stronger than modern was less than a decade ago. All this and standard is probably less popular than pioneer even with an extra 2 years added onto standard's lifespan. Rotation has done nothing, and most MTG players still ignore it. Lets not even get started on Pokemon.
I'll be honest, I've not actually seen anyone outside of MD play "Appaloosa", and even in MD I've rarely seen it used, so it makes me sad that she gets so much hate, as I really love her artwork.
Maxx C is not a problem, maxx c being good is a symptom. If you just want back in time and added maxx c into legend of blue eyes when it released it would take 10 or so years until it becomes more than a niche card to side deck against specific combo decks. If you took any generic link monster with a once per turn negate into that set it would be a staple almost immediately, because you know its inherently broken while maxx c is situationally broken.
While you’re technically not wrong, I ask you: would you prefer the game to go back to goat format level of speed, or do you prefer the fast pace of the game? The reason I enjoy yugioh so much is because you get to do combos, it’s a very fast paced game and as long as the format doesn’t suck (cough snake eye cough Fiendsmith cough), playing yugioh is one of the most fun pastimes I have. Yugioh is like no other trading card game, and I love that about it.
@@danmanproking2179 why choose, in goat you can play reasoning gate or libraryFTK, libraryFTK wasn't played historically but still. The difference is that in goat not every deck played that way and the ones that did were more weak to disruption while having less disruption of their own, usually making them more mid tier strategies. I personally will go to the goat format grand prix in Germany in September, so yes I prefer to play goat format speed. In fact I would rather not play Yu-Gi-Oh in a format where pot is banned, because of what that says about speed. Also unrelated, back in goat you had about 20 extremely good generic staples, not all are played in every deck but at least you should always considere playing them, and you can play almost any strategy with those staples added and they will carry it enough to get some wins against top tier decks. With how archetype locked the game has become this becomes more difficult. For example right now a better pot of greed is technically legal, activate bonfire (we are currently -1) to search poplar (we are now card neutral) who special summons himself and then searches another guy (we have reached+1) so instead of draw to you get search 2 and special summon 1 but only if you play the best deck.
@younasdar5572 OK that's cool mate but unless you're playing Snake Eye/Fire king bonfire does nothing for any other deck, also nobody is going to negate Bonfire as there are more pressing things to negate . Pot Of Greed is either force your opponent to negate or you +1 for every deck.
But that is what I mean, pot is being called a problem for being a +1 without cost. At the same time the top meta deck has a +1 that also special summons a guy that only they can use. It's like if pot of greed searched you a lvl 3 or lower light and a lvl 3 or lower dark during goat format, now it only works in chaos decks. In goat you can play chaos, zombies, Warriors or rat toolbox and still run pot. Would you say the format would be more fair if the already best deck could play pot? Because that is current Yu-Gi-Oh, I would rather they ban all the archetypal +1s from the meta decks and put pot back, because then at least every deck has a +1 and not just the good ones.
Archtype Supports are the core problems. Duelists in this era don't create deck. Konami does. Most duelist just create decks with archtype and meta's structure. I was leaving Yugioh several years because i cannot bear this annoying gamestyle anymore.
:D "slowing down" while Gimick Puppet FTK exists?? To "slow down" the game Konami basically would have to soft reset the game. Which they can't so they HAVE to put out more generic stuff to make going second even possible. But players like wombo combo play ...while "professional players" start quitting the game
Sadly, because appo can be used by everyone, it actually doesn't help weaker decks at all. We need better tools for rogue decks to use that are inaccessible to the top of the meta... which is what I am talking about, really strong archetype-only bosses! -Taylor
Long winded response: yes I understand meta decks can use appo obviously - at least rouge decks can have that tool within their weaker archetype, banning appo is similar to banning link kuriboh. Seems to me the solution is to ban the cards that are overpowered with multiple amazing effects: fiendsmith, snake-eyes, fenrir etc. I understand that won’t happen because Konami is choosing this game design to sell cards. However then the reality becomes that Konami and players who incentivize them prioritize having these overpowered cards that deserve to be banned over the health of the game and a new direction with fewer one card combos as one example. On a side note, it seems like to me that yugioh players have been conditioned to accept the bare minimum from Konami. Many players like myself are stepping away from the game because we have seen enough tier 0/1 formats.
@@CardmarketYGO by this logic we should bring back kashtira arise heart but ban fenrir because it is generically oppressive against many decks. Without fenrir and maybe a limited hit to birth kashtira would be fine and it’s barely making tops now. Just using the same logic :)
Buy your shiny new Purulias or Fiendsmith cards on Cardmarket!: bit.ly/3VJa0zE
No.
Not yet, anyways.
I think any "generic" boss cards that belong to an archtype, should be stronger when played as part of that archetype. For example, having an effect that is only available if archetype cards were used as material.
Exactly! If Konami won't restrict decks from making each other's bosses, at least make their most powerful effects only accessible to their archetype!
-Taylor
The new Lightsworn level 8 Synchro is a perfect example of this. The materials are actually generic but there's no reason to summon it outside of a Lightsworn strategy
A good example is Stealth Ninja that needs no S/T in grave to be good, despite being availible to every Machine deck.
Galaxy-Eyes Photon Lord does this well.
Oh, like Fiendsmith Desirae
Gotta say I really like this in depth discussion, many topics covered in 15 minutes. Hope you guys feel confident enough to keep these up every so often sprinkled in between meme duels, trivia, and staple or stinker. Feels like you're beginning to build some nice chemistry too just in time for the channel to get back off the ground. Big shout outs to Johnny in particular for some great and very well thought out insight.
Anyways as for the topic, I think it's high time we hit overly good generic cards. Hand traps have power crept actual traps out of the game and we need to bring them back. To do that we need to ban or limit hand traps, and to do that we need to make turn 1 weaker and hit turn one boss monsters and one card combos harder. Plus we can errata some cards to be better. Why not give Baronne and Savage the clause that they require Fleur Synchron and Rokket Synchron? that's fair and it changes nothing about the cards themselves.
Ya know, I get you guys probably don't have the same budget the MTG channel does right now, but something I'd love to see is you guys invite some rotating super stars of German Yu-Gi-Oh onto the show for talks like these. That's just gotta be one train ride and they're at the studio. Some cool guests would be Dinh Kha Bui, Dinh Kha Pham, Emre Kizilates, Julius Schwarzkopf, Lukas Jansenand, and hey how bout Kanak or some other German YugiTubers? Probably most of all I'd love to see Lampi and Leo, I just love those guys, they are fantastic at events. Other than that, I don't think there's any other profile big shot German Yu-Gi-Oh player I'm forgetting.....
In conclusion.... Let's make Maxx "C" the first card you can have 4 copies of in your deck!!
Glad to hear that this type of content is also interesting 😅 - Johnny
They should have been like evolzar lars . To activate its effect with 1 material it has to be a dinosaur or reptile
15 years ago we had the same issue. Hand traps didnt solve any problems, they made the problems tolerable
I think due to the sheer strength of Fuwaross, it will see maindeck play despite it not being used going first. 50% of the time you'll be going second anyways. Purulia isn't strong enough to justify maindeck play, but will definitely be in a lot of sideboards.
Yeah, Fuwaross will see much more maindeck play especially decks that have easy discard outlets going first to pitch it in case drawn. - Johnny
Taylor can we get a vid discussing about Spell Card "monster reborn"?
I wonder which people would prefer, a discussion about the Spell Card: Monster Reborn, or a discussion about the Spell Card: Spell Card: Monster Reborn…
-Taylor
@@CardmarketYGOAdd the Spell Card: Soul Exchange and the Spell Card: Spell Card: Soul Exchange and you got a 5 min video
If fuwa just affect ex deck summon…
I think fiendsmith should have a restriction that you can not attack or just attack with fiend monster after resolving.
@@dragoran149 a Fiend lock would at least be a step in the right direction, I agree!
-Taylor
Fuwa should indeed be split. Would also allow 4 multcharmies by unifying GY and banish.
@@dudono1744 this is actually a great idea.
@@dragoran149 Even though, imo, there shouldn't be a Multcharmy for Extra since you can't play around it if you play a deck centered on the Extra Deck. With Purulia you can theorically play around it, by sending the monsters to grave and reviving them for example.
thanks for talking about this, cardmarket yugioh.
My thinking is that this is their attempt to unify the formats a bit more. They release these to TCG, see how the more niche and only-going second Maxx C versions look in the metagame, and if they like it more than what Maxx C makes the game look like in OCG, they will replace Maxx C with these hand traps in OCG. (Who would play the Deck-only card with Maxx C as well other than increasing the chance of drawing it going second when decks in MD already have a lot of card slots dedicated to Maxx C and counters?)
In TCG people can side this into their going second games so they actually have a better chance of seeing how impactful the card is when going second.
Definitely some interesting strategy at play for the future of the OCG/TCG here. Sadly, I am not very optimistic the mulcharmy's will impact the meta very much since they can only be played going second, but you never know what could happen!
-Taylor
We are already getting tournament results in from the OCG with Fuwaross legal and the vast majority of decks that run Maxx C also run some number of Fuwaross in their lists, and it seems to be trending out of sides and into mains. Granted that is with only 2 days of events so far, but checking lists and watching Fuwaross go from 2-3 ofs in sides in decks from the 27th to 3 ofs in mains in lists from the 28th is telling me the OCG is embracing "Maxx 6".
I think the problem is that Konami wants to try to fix the game without really changing it. This is despite the fact that formats like GOAT, Edison, Speed Duels, etc. have become more and more popular BECAUSE of Konami's choices.
It's really gotten to the point that no matter what they do, they're bound to upset people. Reigning in the power level of new cards is setting up to ban the powerhouses and some people will definitely have a negative reaction to that. Embracing the power creep further is just going to build towards another Tier 0 format like with Ishizu Tearlaments, and again, people will definitely have negative reactions to that.
The fact is that the only way to fix it at this point is to fundamentally change SOMETHING. Maybe that means finally instituting a format system. Maybe it means changes to the rules. There are a variety of potential solutions, which is another discussion entirely, but the point is that fixing this requires more than a few minor tweaks. The entire franchise, from the card game to the associated media surrounding it, needs an overhaul.
The little mymm C is a good replacement in the game. We do need it really bad in master duel so they ban the real maxxx c
You might think that is funny until konami make more broken board set up archetype to make a point that you need maxx c and multichummy resolve.
Fiendsmith, gimmick puppet and snake eyes are their points, built in ftk engine and ultra resilient archetype, that is how yugioh ran in ocg since 1999, create a problem then sell the solution, exodia being problem? introduce handrips
now in the current day with board set up and other decks become a problem? introduce chummy because maxx c isnt enough
people dont play them? create more broken board set up
If the ban the "C" I'll play Masterduel again 😅 - Johnny
Under The "C" is here to draw cards and float in the sea and its all out of sea!
skull servants can fuck with this hard, draw power with discards are crazy
i realy like this foramt this the best since you re open this chanel
Glad to hear you like to hear some discussion too! 😊 - Johhny
I generally agree with the generic extra deck staples, but occasionally I love these cards. Generic extra deck negates? Gotta go. Get rid of them. And maybe this is a little hypocritical, but i love generic cards like IP and SP.
The extra deck having generic tools is fine as long as they aren't too powerful! Stuff like the knightmares were used for a long time but felt really fair to play against. Once you cross that line of power and have cards with multiple negates than any deck can easily summon... well... then we have a problem.
-Taylor
S:P is too OP imo, but I:P is a banger form of interruption.
@@dudono1744 I would say IP is why this card is kinda broken though. Without IP, SP is still an incredibly powerful card, but the context it is broken in is entirely because of IP. Out of the two I would say IP is more bannable not only because of the SP interaction, but because shes broken a number of other cards as well.
@@t-vann48 Fair enough
Ok here is the “generic” boss monster issue, if we get rid of all the generic boss monsters then Konami actually needs to support archetypes to actually be viable. Look at mimighoul, vaylantz, melodious, solfachord, kuriboh, shining sarc,and even more rogue decks, what do they end on in comparison to stuff like branded, labrynth, voiceless voice, tearlament, kashtira, the list goes on.
I really love Yu-Gi-Oh as a game, I think the loop is fun. But the current way games just end within a couple or a few turns is really boring to me and I do hope they are going to slow games down again.
New upload?
*CLICK*
What happened to adam? I miss him
epic video
Epic commenter 🔥😎
-Taylor
I don't like Maxx C in Master Duel, I won't like this little jellyfish either
Give it up for 9 maxx c
I won’t be happy until I can run 40 of ‘em!!!
-Taylor
It's always funny coming from MTG and just thinking how many problems in YGO are solved by having a rotating format.
Oh please, Standard is probably the worst format right now and that's saying something since modern and commander have been so dummy power crept. Like, while Yu-Gi-Oh is having some problems right now this is probably one of MTG's most oppressive formats in a long time and rotation has not slowed it down. Rotation did not slow this down at all. most decks in standard these days are stronger than modern was less than a decade ago. All this and standard is probably less popular than pioneer even with an extra 2 years added onto standard's lifespan. Rotation has done nothing, and most MTG players still ignore it.
Lets not even get started on Pokemon.
I'll be honest, I've not actually seen anyone outside of MD play "Appaloosa", and even in MD I've rarely seen it used, so it makes me sad that she gets so much hate, as I really love her artwork.
Love the artwork too, but she has been a powerhouse and endboard piece ever since Rising Rampage. She had her time in the spotlight 😅 - Johnny
@@CardmarketYGO fair. I've just not really seen anyone play her at any tournaments I've been to.
Maxx C is not a problem, maxx c being good is a symptom.
If you just want back in time and added maxx c into legend of blue eyes when it released it would take 10 or so years until it becomes more than a niche card to side deck against specific combo decks. If you took any generic link monster with a once per turn negate into that set it would be a staple almost immediately, because you know its inherently broken while maxx c is situationally broken.
While you’re technically not wrong, I ask you: would you prefer the game to go back to goat format level of speed, or do you prefer the fast pace of the game? The reason I enjoy yugioh so much is because you get to do combos, it’s a very fast paced game and as long as the format doesn’t suck (cough snake eye cough Fiendsmith cough), playing yugioh is one of the most fun pastimes I have. Yugioh is like no other trading card game, and I love that about it.
@@danmanproking2179 why choose, in goat you can play reasoning gate or libraryFTK, libraryFTK wasn't played historically but still.
The difference is that in goat not every deck played that way and the ones that did were more weak to disruption while having less disruption of their own, usually making them more mid tier strategies.
I personally will go to the goat format grand prix in Germany in September, so yes I prefer to play goat format speed.
In fact I would rather not play Yu-Gi-Oh in a format where pot is banned, because of what that says about speed.
Also unrelated, back in goat you had about 20 extremely good generic staples, not all are played in every deck but at least you should always considere playing them, and you can play almost any strategy with those staples added and they will carry it enough to get some wins against top tier decks. With how archetype locked the game has become this becomes more difficult. For example right now a better pot of greed is technically legal, activate bonfire (we are currently -1) to search poplar (we are now card neutral) who special summons himself and then searches another guy (we have reached+1) so instead of draw to you get search 2 and special summon 1 but only if you play the best deck.
@younasdar5572 OK that's cool mate but unless you're playing Snake Eye/Fire king bonfire does nothing for any other deck, also nobody is going to negate Bonfire as there are more pressing things to negate . Pot Of Greed is either force your opponent to negate or you +1 for every deck.
But that is what I mean, pot is being called a problem for being a +1 without cost.
At the same time the top meta deck has a +1 that also special summons a guy that only they can use.
It's like if pot of greed searched you a lvl 3 or lower light and a lvl 3 or lower dark during goat format, now it only works in chaos decks. In goat you can play chaos, zombies, Warriors or rat toolbox and still run pot. Would you say the format would be more fair if the already best deck could play pot?
Because that is current Yu-Gi-Oh, I would rather they ban all the archetypal +1s from the meta decks and put pot back, because then at least every deck has a +1 and not just the good ones.
@@younasdar5572Pot was banned as soon as banning cards became a thing.
MAXX C to 3 tcg!!!
May god have mercy on your soul
-Taylor
Archtype Supports are the core problems. Duelists in this era don't create deck. Konami does. Most duelist just create decks with archtype and meta's structure. I was leaving Yugioh several years because i cannot bear this annoying gamestyle anymore.
kind of balanced = broken af
Ash is still new in my mind.. and it's "only" 7 years old, not 10
We were on OTS 4 when Ash released. 10 was hyperbole but she is old by now 😅 - Johhny
:D "slowing down" while Gimick Puppet FTK exists??
To "slow down" the game Konami basically would have to soft reset the game. Which they can't so they HAVE to put out more generic stuff to make going second even possible. But players like wombo combo play ...while "professional players" start quitting the game
Taking appo away from weaker decks and more hand traps are not solutions.
Call me back when they print good boss monsters for all of the jank archetypes.
The argument doesn't work because Appo can be used in Meta decks too. It is time to kick her to the curb.
Sadly, because appo can be used by everyone, it actually doesn't help weaker decks at all. We need better tools for rogue decks to use that are inaccessible to the top of the meta... which is what I am talking about, really strong archetype-only bosses!
-Taylor
Long winded response:
yes I understand meta decks can use appo obviously - at least rouge decks can have that tool within their weaker archetype, banning appo is similar to banning link kuriboh.
Seems to me the solution is to ban the cards that are overpowered with multiple amazing effects: fiendsmith, snake-eyes, fenrir etc. I understand that won’t happen because Konami is choosing this game design to sell cards. However then the reality becomes that Konami and players who incentivize them prioritize having these overpowered cards that deserve to be banned over the health of the game and a new direction with fewer one card combos as one example.
On a side note, it seems like to me that yugioh players have been conditioned to accept the bare minimum from Konami. Many players like myself are stepping away from the game because we have seen enough tier 0/1 formats.
@@CardmarketYGO by this logic we should bring back kashtira arise heart but ban fenrir because it is generically oppressive against many decks. Without fenrir and maybe a limited hit to birth kashtira would be fine and it’s barely making tops now. Just using the same logic :)
maxx c, more like crap c