I realize I should have shared that they said EVERYTHING will be backwards compatible, so old heroes will always be usable etc in case there was any doubt. They also made a big emphasis on wanting to support Marvel Champions as long as possible and that it's in a really healthy place! EDIT: They posted an article about it: www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2025/2/7/designer-journal-introducing-current-and-legacy-environments/
@@6O8gamer07 So sorry! Yes, all our old heroes are still valid choices! I personally doubt we'll even see "new versions" for at least a year if not longer.
@@VillainTheory The big one I want is Hulk anyways. I've been buying every product since Phase 1 (or whatever it's called). So, I'm personally in no rush. But I do feel bad for new players. If Cap is your favorite hero.... that kinda sucks....
@@VillainTheory It is tough for those without Wave 1 standouts like Cap. I am sure they will actually do a new core box with updated versions of Cap, Thor, Strange, IronMan, etc. That way they can reprint the rules and have a product that sells strong with big name heroes people have wanted but can’t get at the moment.
Due to how much I love Marvel Champions I wanted to get into the LoTR LCG, but when I found out I couldn't get the old stuff (without spending a fortune on eBay) and the revised edition wouldn't include everything I decided not to. For me having options denied to me is way worse than having too many options and it being harder to know what order to get it in.
Ultimately I think they knew it was a net negative, which is why they tried to put so many positive spins on the situation. And I don't disagree with the positive parts of it. It feels like it was inevitable? So at least there are those silver linings - even if it doesn't feel great to me. Hopefully it doesn't put off too many new players.
I actually really love that there are very weak and very strong characters in this game, because its like having multiple levers. "This scenario was way too hard! I'm gonna try it with Strange." or "Damn, that was a cake walk even on expert II. I'm gonna grab Hulk for this."
I’m glad that when I started a year or 2? ago I went crazy and just kept buying stuff until I was all caught up except nebula and ironheart and I got those last Black Friday. Not reprinting cap and strange is going to be rough for new players or players that didn’t get them yet.
On the other hand, they did say they were doing new versions of some old heroes, and I have to imagine a new Captain America and Doctor Strange will be among the priorities. Crossing my fingers! It may be that new players get much better versions and all the best aspect cards from them still, just takes some waiting.
@@Quinsec that stinks. Hope you find an affordable set soon. People are always selling off their collection and you may get lucky and find one hanging out at a store shelf
Canceling the game due to people not being willing to buy a box full of reprints when they can’t get specific cards from older sets will be a “business decision,” too.
Except for Hulk, i will NOT buy another version of any other hero. And if they make the new ones that comes out "incompatible" with "legacy" it will be the end of my marvel champions road for me. I own verything. I want to keep being able to add new things without starting over.
As someone who spent way too much trying to catch up and spending a lot on the old stuff, hearing that they are being replaced by a "current environment" really takes a lot of wind out of my sails.
I'm sorry to hear that. For what it's worth, I think most of us will continue to play the "legacy environment" and the old heroes will be as fun as they always were! You will have more options than "current environment" players. I am actually worried the new versions of older heroes may not actually be as fun as the originals. The designers are great but the original Captain America is widely loved.
@@RobPhifer Because if people love the game, they probably want to have the whole content for it and not printing stuff makes it impossible/very expensive on 2nd hand market? What would competitiveness change in this case?
@@VillainTheory That’s what doesn’t make sense here. If these products are selling out completely globally, how could they not be making enough money on them to justify printing more? They’re literally sold out.
@@apigeon5475 why though? The game is still amazing even with an incomplete collection, way better than not playing it at all! We played for years with a small cardpool and it was already great. I understand the frustration, but still.
Thanks for the video, I missed the stream and this helped. I’m not optimistic about the changes but I am 100% okay with being wrong. Just going to have to wait and see.
Being a potential new player this is real frustrating. Yes, you can say I should have gotten into the game way sooner but now I feel like if I buy the game finally, its a ticking clock to get what I want. its a bigger issue when some characters are out of print and they are iconic characters. I doubt that people don't want to play as CAP and that's why its not worth a reprint. Just do print on demand and that solves an issue. You can still have your two year environment and keep older cards in print.
I have mixed feelings as well about the hero redesigns plus the labelling parts of the game now with "legacy" vs "current". I look at how much money I put into the game just to know it's now "legacy" feels off-putting even if it's all backward compatible. If the hero redesigns are technically new characters like Red Hulk, I might be more onboard as opposed to a Dr. Strange 2.0. I think Dr. Strange is fine just the way he is personally (same for Captain America). I'm glad to hear Boggs will be back for some new designs. I'm hoping MJ will come back and do Cloak & Dagger like she wanted as well.
The problem i have with this new system is that theres zero possibility they redo EVERY older hero. That would lead them into the exact same scenario. As a hypothetical If this were to happen tomorrow, and the current environment is only the last 2-3 years, then the only available product would be the Core set, Mutants waves, and the S.H.I.E.L.D wave by the time the S.H.I.E.L.D wave is completely released. Those core set heroes would feel severely lacking without any form of additional trait support to newer players, not to mention the entire Guardians and previous Web Warriors (with a new one being announced next week) being retired and big villain names like Red Skull and Thanos. If theyre planning on releasing new versions of heroes they really need to announce those around the same time they announce the old one retiring soon or theres gonna be even more insanity with scalpers buying up everything and charging ridiculous amounts to those trying to play their favorite hero.
I think I agree with this. We were talking on Discord where I was saying about what would happen when Wave 6 (Mutant Genesis) left the rotation, but Wave 8 (Age of Apocalypse) was still in it? That's 6 X-Men heroes who just lost a bunch of synergy as all their X-Men toys leave the "current environment". Stopping trilogies will help with this, but they are really going to have to up their release cadence in general to keep tools for core heroes coming around. There are a few other downsides that could spin off from this, so I hope it's all carefully navigated. It seems like a big ask but I have a lot of faith in Tony.
@@VillainTheory One positive I could maybe see is if older Villains get retired we may see alternate scenarios for them in the future. Maybe a true Loki scenario without being forced into the Infinity Gauntlet modular is an actual possibility now. I just really can't shake the feeling though that this isn't because they aren't seeing demand for these products (God knows there is demand for Cap and Strange as usually its the first thing I see when scrolling the facebook or reddit groups every time I load them up) but more that they are trying to find a way to sell us these products more than once by throwing a shiny coat of paint on it and calling it new.
@@GaNSiNaTeR They don't need to do anything to get people to re-buy alternate versions of older heroes. The community has been asking for that for at least a couple years now. The number of people wanting alternate hero/alter-ego cards, multiverse versions of heroes, fixed versions of some of the duds, etc. has been repeatedly asked for. There's also been a clamoring for a revised core box to bring the core box heroes a little more up to date with the current content.
@VaultBoy13 Except the only hero the community has even asked for an alternative has been the Hulk because of designer insight that he was changed shortly before release into the not so fun version we got. Them reselling the original lineup with a new coat of paint would be a HUGE slap in the face to existing consumers that have been waiting for major heroes that arent in the game yet, not to mention they've stated the core set will stay in production so those heroes wont even be on the list of new versions...
Unaddressed is the problem that Aspects have grown to the point where they can have certain archetypes regardless of hero; think Dive Bomb/Honed Technique or Global Logistics/s.h.i.e.l.d. card. The list is extensive because deck builders are clever. New synergies will, of course, arise with new releases but I would expect some current popular deck builds to be priced out of the market regardless of what hero they are nominally attached to. Odd behavior coming from a non-competitive game.
This seems like an inevitable part of the games life cycle. There are downsides but overall I’m optimistic. I like the idea of revisiting design on a select number of classic heroes if it doesn’t get excessive. It also makes sense to me from the design side to need a “checkpoint” in the thousands of cards in the ecosystem. The negatives are if aspect card reprints became excessive and the general impact out-of-print has on new “all-in” type of players. Still excited for the game and looking forward to what’s ahead! More Bogg’s design is great! Moving away from trilogy waves makes sense and I’m excited to see a bigger variety with each wave.
Thanks for the update. I'm a little puzzled because of the FFG decision not to print old hero packs or expansion sets. They have already developed products that don't cost much to print, so basically they print money, and just like that they decided not to do it anymore. It's just strange, I'm not frustrated because I'm missing 4 hero packs (not popular ones), but I have this gut feeling that Asmodee/FFG is cooking something like they did with many other games of theirs.
I don't like it but I understand they can't keep reprinting stock indefinitely. I really hate the idea of remaking old heroes though. The Hulk is one thing sure but I would rather not have to re-buy heroes like Captain America v2.0 now with better shield as that not only makes my existing version of the hero redundant and destined for the bin but it also means they are going to push us into replacing our whole collection with obligatory updates instead of fun new heroes.
I am hopeful that the new versions of heroes won't just be power-creeped improvements. The way they phrased it suggested a fresh perspective on their designs. The ideal world has the original versions and new versions both be distinct and fun from each other, and equally valid choices.
From a pure business perspective, it's unsustainable to keep so many products in print. The alternative to revisiting old heroes would be to just let them lapse, and IMO that would be worse. Having a Marvel game where you can't get Captain America or Hulk would be a weird choice. I've been a proponent of revisiting some of the heroes whose designs didn't quite hit the mark the first time around, so in general I'm positive towards this on top of understanding that some kind of shift is necessary. The end of trilogies is only positive IMO. One wave is long enough to focus on a single group or theme. Retiring some of the aspect and basic cards that nobody uses sounds like a good idea. This also allows them to reconsider some of the cards that may have become a bit too ubiqutous. Of course, I'm writing all of this from the perspective of someone who's been with the game since the release of the core box so take that for what it's worth.
From a collector point of view I'm glad that I got in a few months ago and especially on the German version, we still have Strange and Cap available. For gameplay, I think it's better to limit the design space a bit, so having a standard format can be quite healthy for the game. Keeps power creep in check and makes deck-building much more fun for me if some of the staple cards rotate out every now and then. Of course FFG will want to make money, so they probably evaluated that this format makes them more than reprinting the old packs. I think best for everyone would be to have some kickstarter-like system, where people could pledge for old packs they want and if enough people do so, they get a reprint run..
End of Trilogies is probably a good thing. I've heard a lot that people are "tired" of mutants. This will allow Ffg to bounce between smaller teams without being held to forcing connections for the overall story.
I'd love it if new good heroes came with old good cards. I don't have a complete collection at this point, and hope this announcement means I'll get the important holes in my cards filled in going further rather than deciding if I'm going to buy an older so-so hero to get one or two good aspect cards. We'll see.
Looking forward to an updated, and repowered, Black Widow in the future! I have gotten my money from that character, and I am happy to purchase a new version.
@@jesot Yes!!! And I love Agents of Shield, and I was already excited about this box set even before seeing that Spy was getting some help. But after the changes with Quickstrike, I want Black Widow to get her sting back.
Yeah, In super stoked to revisit her. She's definitely in my top 3 most played heroes, and I haven't touched her in years because I kind of did everything I wanted to with her. I think now there will be new things to try.
I think the no reprint pill would have been easier to swallow if they did one last small run of them, even if it was crowd funded and slightly marked up. Feels bad to pass up packs that were 10$ marked up holding out for a reprint to know I’m just hosed now.
This is a weird situation because on one hand getting a new Hulk would be great but on the other hand Captain America and Doctor Strange in the original versions are really good, so it would be scummy if they redid them but nerfed.
@RobPhifer That's a fair opinion but remember there's alot of people who don't have the original. A nerfed version that might be more fun for people that didn't like the original ain't gonna be fair to newer players. Especially if they also nerf cards like Night Nurse and Iron Fist which were only available by buying his hero pack.
I don't know if I would use the word "scummy" here. It's not a competitive game so a weaker version of a hero isn't really going to put anyone at a meaningful disadvantage, though I do agree it feels bad to have something more powerful taken away as an option. Even if I personally would prefer a slightly weaker (but not WEAK) version of Strange.
@@RobPhifer Me too. I'd actually be OK with a version of Doctor Strange that is more interesting to play. All he wants to be doing is interacting with the invocation deck. He's powerful, but he's not very interesting. A re-design that opened up Doctor Strange would be welcome.
I think doing a bit of both is the content I'd be most interested in, but I also think that makes more work for content creators for little return unless they're split into multiple videos. My current plan is to play legacy. I bought the whole collection and I intend to use my whole collection. Honestly I'm viewing the new format as more of a "challenge mode" where if I want a greater challenge I can do that instead, the same way some people play older boxes using only what was available when they released. So I could definitely see myself being interested in what other people are playing in that format. That said, I don't forsee it being my primary method of playing at all
Thanks for the feedback! And that's a great way to look at it. Right now I'm not sure what I'm going to do, definitely got some mixed feelings. We'll see where it all settles!
@ honestly as time goes on I’d expect to see creators shift focus to the “current” format since that’ll likely be what newer players will be entering through, so that’s where viewer base growth will be. Also the whole like rolling window of content will be a bit weird with people having different starting points
@@Husky-bugbear I don't think people have the same starting points now outside the core box. I think a lot of people jumped straight to Web Warriors or X-Men.
@ that true but there’s kinda two groups right now: a persons individual collection and the entire card pool which has always been completely available (outside of maybe strange and cap). Going forward there will be be individual card pool, everything, and everything up to whatever happened to be in print whenever a person started which is a thing that will change every time more stuff is “retired.” so the people who have “everything” becomes a smaller group over time (the longer things are out of print), and therefore each of those “everything up to X point” groups become harder to target with content imo
Oh wow, I guess it'll have to do with how they implement it. I'd love to see a new She-hulk, but by the same token, we all have favorite heroes who haven't made it into the game yet. I'm still holding out hope for a playable Moon Knight deck. Maybe getting back to a more consistent release schedule will help? And going to single-box designs gives me hope for the future that we'll get a Midnight Sons box. Great video, thanks for the info!
Thanks for this video! You are the villan theory guy right? Let me pitch you a video idea hope you will like it - What if agents of shield will just lead go civil war? The villans will be heroes like we got with black widow yeleana? I hope you can make video about it
I would love to be able to mix and match. If they make a new Doctor Strange, I would like to be able to take out card #12 from one of his I-15 for the card #12 in the other I-15.
As much as it’s hard to hear that old content is getting retired. It seems like that was gonna happen no matter what, so better to address it with a plan than have material not in print but not openly retired.
1. Having to revisit old Heros under different game mechanics \design could be great. 2. Retiring old cards is bad for new people. - Im such a person that if I know I can't collect it all then I won't be interested in the game to begin with. Just like Marvel Untied and many of its Kickstart exclusive content\limited releases. I seen many people disappointed for not being able to find Doctor Strange and Captain America. I understand their reasons. But they could just keep selling them in their site under "legacy content", and even charge more if its not worth for them to print old cards. Hero collection packs could be great solution. There are countless of great solutions that they chose not to take. And that's sucks
I kind of agree with all of this. I loved Arkham's newer release model and the European hero pack collections in English sold out everywhere that I can see.
The end of trilogies might have a positive side effect of no more support bloat, something that is very visible for mutants, where the amount of grey cards you really want to include was bit too much for me, basically it reduced deck building because of how many auto includes there was ,especially in leadership I have seen Silk ID (she is available for pre-order in some stores, with pictures of ID...), and without the rest of her cards, for me, power wise, she is strictly in "I have no idea" territory, so looking forward to an article next week
I got into the game after mutant Genesis. The thing that sucks is every time I ask someone who they want to play, the first hero they say is captain America. I'm glad I was able to find all of the heroes in stores and didn't have to worry about scalpers upping the price. People getting into the game won't have the same luck because of this decision.
They haven't shown us they can keep up the release pace they've been talking about for years. I don't have faith they'll meet those goals. "We're producing content quicker! But its less content (no scenario packs or OP Kits) and it's old heroes so you can buy them a second time!" We will see what happens. The secondary market is about to go WILD, if theres a hero you want I suggest you get it now before scalpers try to make their buck.
There is a lot to say but I will just leave a quick comment. I am very disappointed, finding older Marvel Champions content was already tough. As a new player YES I want older content. Even though I like X-Men there are tons of great and fun cards to collect. They make a lot of excuses but to me it just sounds like they think it isn't worth the money reprinting. It probably wasn't on purpose, but this puts EXTREME pressure on people to buy everything as it releases because they will worry about things going out of print. This feels really bad as a consumer.
The thing about 'legacy' vs 'current' environment just doesnt work in this case. It works in something like Magic the gathering because it forces you and your OPPONENT under the same restrictions. With champions being cooperative youre just hampering your own potential by not playing the legacy cards. And when you play with others whst are you going to do? Tell them not to use the products they own just because you cant find it? Im excited for them to try new versions of old heroes but the legacy news is bad. And thos is coming from someone who wont even be that effected by it since im only missing War Machine. I just feel for new players.
I don't know. Is it so bad to imagine an environment that doesn't have Honed Technique and how that'd help open up the design space for Aggression? Sure, you can play legacy and used Honed Technique with the new cards, but the designers not having to balance every Aggression card against Honed Technique is a good thing. And, it's not like they couldn't release something similar to Honed Technique in a future pack that's doesn't break the design space for the aspect. I would imagine when you play with others you talk to each other and decide on a format. I don't see how it's difficult?
@@ryanellett5485 Right, but they also mentioned making more entry points for new people to come into the game along with ways of adjusting old cards that felt too powerful or weak. + Rumor has it that the F4 expansion will be different from past expansions, so I'm curious what this will entail.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Revised Core with some added staple cards and OG Captain America. They did the same with Arkham (as far as adding important cards from other sets like Charisma).
2:45 I think saying "You like Spider-Man, buy Sinister Motives," implies that a new player knows that it is a product they can buy. If it's not on the shelf when they discover the game, they don't know it exists. It's easy to come at this from an informed perspective, but I imagine that a lot of players don't even know that Fantasy flight Games is the company that makes Marvel Champions. They don't have the Discord links. They don't see the announcements. They just know they like the game.
I might be missing something but I'm not certain what difference it makes. If someone likes spider-characters and sees a box with spider characters on it then they can buy it without any special knowledge. And if it's not on the shelf, and they don't research anything, they won't buy it. But that basically also goes for anything they might release in the future unless they're going to start advertising some kind of purchase order.
I think it’s mostly good. I also want a 3rd version, the “current cards” play every hero. Eg I can use thor but limit the pool to the current pool of aspect and neutral
I guess it has it's pros and cons. It's nice to redo some misses with heroes like the Hulk but it sucks for players who are newer to the game who can't get the old content. It can suck for older players too because we have to get redone heroes too now lol. I guess it can be a good thing though to be able to play redone hero in a different way, especially if they just tweak the hero's appearance as well, like a Weapon X version of Wolverine, or a Symbiote Suit version of Spider-Man, or a World War Hulk version. Lots of interesting alternatives.
I like your videos and watch them last weeks since I found you. I love marvel champions and fantasy flight games. I agree and disagree in some things though. The core rules and learn to play are one of the worst rules I have ever seen in a board game. I mean reaching 1.6 because nothing was clear is very bad for new players and even experienced ones. The learn to play should be in steps with screenshots not like it is. We have more than 60-70 hours in the game mostly 2 players and we still sometimes have to check basic things. Of course new things and keywords are added with expansions and characters but they are not explained well. The second thing I won't like probably is the legacy current system you mentioned. We already have so many things to check and how to start/buy things. Adding one more confusion/layer is not good. Those errors were made in the previous arkham horror lcg before revised. Glad they made revised. Campaign + characters expansion. Some seperate investigators and missions. So simple! Even if characters stand alone are more profitable they should first care for players and simplicity and then everything else. Finally is hard to find some things already like doctor strange and some expansions.
As a new player since Christmas this whole thing disappoints me. It's already getting harder to get some of the older big box expansions and a lot of the older hero decks have cards that are staples in deckbuilding. If they never come back into print then when do I get Cap or Ant-man?
Ant-Man is still readily available if that helps. The only heroes hard to find right now are Cap and Dr Strange. I would focus on just getting some characters you really want.
I believe the idea is that they might print new versions of those heroes. So, in theory, you get an improved version - just at a later date. Unfortunately there are no guarantees which heroes will get a new version and when that might be, so I definitely understand the disappointment regardless. At least I am fairly confident they will prioritize Cap, he is widely loved in and out of Champions.
FFG had to tackle the reprints issue one way or another and the option they're going with seems to make the most sense financially without hurting the players in a significant way. I just wish more details were given so we have a better picture of 'revised' heroes. The whole distinction between 'current' and 'legacy' will be silly in a LCG sphere, though.
It definitely feels like the reprints weren't financially/logistically sustainable, so I guess it was going to happen one way or the other. It feels like a bitter pill to swallow even though it doesn't affect me much? We'll have to see how it all shakes out.
I assumed they would be releasing those hero box sets like we've seen for wave 1 and 2 in other countries and that's why the wave 1 hero packs were drying up. It's the model they've used for Arkham, so I assumed they would move that way too, for shelf space efficiency and sustainability. I think this is a very bad move, as if your favourite heros are from the MCU, then being denied Cap, Thor, Hulk, BW, Strange and presumably at some point the wave 2 avengers may be a real turn off for new players
Boggs is one of my favorite designers along with MJ, so definitely glad if he's back. Sad/disappointed to hear that products won't be getting reprints. It'll depend on what their plans are around that - Will they be releasing a new core set? If they're basically going to be releasing 2.0 versions of the older heroes, I'm not necessarily against that as long as the new versions are as close as they can be to the originals, just with the minimum tweaks needed to balance them appropriately for the current game.
My understanding was the core set will remain the same, and the new versions of heroes will be completely new designs, but until we see a finished product or hear more I'm not totally sure what it will end up looking like.
As a newer player, while I don't want to suggest that I liked how sales have been handled thus far, I don't feel overwhelmed and don't know where to start. I'd typically just shoot at theme and frankly if I managed to go through the SIXTY TWO PAGE RULESHEET then I can handle finding the content in a pack through Google. If you don't want to overwhelm players, simplify the rules don't change the purchasing decisions. You already did spiderman, move onto a new thing, I would much rather see new heroes as opposed to old hero reskins, and I'd say that's more confusing because now I won't know which version of spiderman I am getting under the new system (yes I know he's in the core game, ignore that momentarily)
I’m torn. Just picked up MC about 10 months ago and have been buying in release order to get a feel for how it evolved, but I’m buying characters I know I won’t play just to get a couple cards that may help with deck building when I eventually get to the characters I want to play. (Admittedly, that’s a ME problem). Regardless, big fan of the channel, has helped me a lot as I’ve gotten into this awesome game.
A 'standard' and 'legacy' environment system does not appeal to me at all. There are no tournaments in this game, so I don't think it makes much sense. All that just so new players don't feel bad? There are some incredible cards and available (in print) heroes out there and it should be enough for anyone new to the game. I think it would be just fine if they reprint staples from time to time.
It's a bit odd, I actually don't expect to notice much different in terms of scenario difficulty etc. I just worry they will stop caring about any semblance of balance for older heroes and card combinations. I love the depth that deck-building currently has and the smaller "current environment" won't be the same. Sure, there is already some wonky stuff, but if they stop worrying about balance with old combos it could go off the rails. But hopefully not! A lot of what Tony said sounded pretty balance-focused to some degree.
I’m not a fan of this. To me, it feels like a money grab and not working with all those that have been supporting the game. I won’t be buying the new reprinted heroes just for a few small adjustments. I would have preferred upgrade packs to older heroes instead.
I am mixed on this. But it would be great if the new design of old heroes comes with all the lessons learned from the many years since their release. Boxes without campaigns sounds like lower value, but then I think of the sinister motives "campaign" and I dont mind it as much😅
Well the "no campaigns" thing was purely my opinion, they aren't doing that as far as I know! As long as the cards/paper that would have formed those campaigns went into other things (more mod sets, aspect cards, or new game modes etc) I would be very happy with it. Just getting less would be sad. They are just no longer doing trilogies of boxes themed together. As for new versions of old heroes...maybe you'll get Black Widow with a sniper rifle? 😉
They’ve observed a bias inherent to people related to what they experience first. Like as an example, if you read a book before you see a movie you’ll probably enjoy the book more. Obviously there are exceptions to this. My main point is, I think those of us who are used to the older version of a hero we’re going to prefer them that way. Even Hulk has his fans. However, I think a brand new player with 0 bias is just going to want to play their favorite hero and won’t care unless somebody influences them otherwise. Yes, one Cap will objectively likely end up being better than the other Cap but at the end of the day people just want to play their favorite heroes. Just my opinion, I could be entirely wrong but I think there’s some merit to it and at the end of the day, if nothing else, they’re running it as a business. They’re going to make what they consider the best business decision and unfortunately “new” is often enough to generate interest above “good”.
Totally fair! I really wish there was a way to package and sell the old stuff indefinitely - or at least for a while longer. I know my local stores still sell the older stuff even if it doesn't rush off the shelves like a new product. But you are right that a business will and has to make the right business decision. Hopefully it pays off for them without inconveniencing us. Something I don't think I touched on in the video is I am slightly worried we are just going to be bombarded with even more reprints in future hero packs now.
I do highly want reworked cards and heroes....so perhaps selfishly since I own it all I'd rather them cut out old content if that means getting to revisit them in the future. But yah - a happy medium ground would be print and play for outdated content.
If they are going to release updated heroes then it would be good if they offered wave packs of only those updated cards for those who already have the heroes. Unless, of course, every card & design will be different to mine as much money out of us as possible.
My impression was that the heroes will be completely new designs, but the aspect/basic cards would sometimes be the same, sometimes have little changes, and some cards might just not be reprinted at all.
@@VillainTheory It does sound like that, which I am still unsure how I feel. When Shuri came out I did post somewhere that this could be a way of updating those core heroes but as others have said, would you want to play a Hulk that isnt the Hulk, or Cap? Another thing is, how can it be a living card game if certain content, when out of print, is now dead for current/new players?
@@Dedge77 I don't think there was anything about living card games keeping expansions available for the life of the game. It was about expansions having fixed cards and not having to deal with things like boosters. I think with the longevity of AH and Champions FFG have hit the limit of how much content they can keep on shelves. The games are popular enough to keep making content, but old content isn't selling well enough to keep it in print. I don't think they have an option.
I like the new versions of heroes but not having access to old cards is kinda gross. I do like redone heroes though. I feel like you just need to sell hero packs. I just started up with a new player who started this christmas. They are having a tough time buying into the older packs and I feel for em.
Kinda got a lot to say here, so apologies if this goes on a bit. -Agree regarding Arkham Horror campaigns. But I like that they try nonetheless. -Feel kinda sad about new players being locked out of the old content and potentially ripped off by scalpers. Can't help but feel that keeping the Expansions in print and doing Hero wave boxes (kinda like the Arkham Horror investigator boxes) might be a fairer way to go. That said, I am curious about how they plan to go about this. Will probably bring whatever to games, as that's just what I do. I lose, I lose. That's just how games go at times. -Not surprised it's likely Silk, but was wondering if Quake might be in with a shout. Highly suspect that the last two are The Falcon and The Winter Soldier. -Kinda bummed about the AoS delay, but then I recall last year...still, a little more time to speculate on the 5th villain (I'm going with Baron Zemo). -The end of trilogies is kinda good news, as in all honesty what's left that can support one? To my mind, there's Fantastic Four, Midnight Suns, Defenders...all of which can easily be one box deals. Still, allows for plenty of opportunities to freshen things up a bit. Say next year is Defenders, then they follow up with Midnight Suns. -Nothing said about scenario packs. Hopefully they come back too. Galactus would make a good one, assuming he isn't in the F4 box. Hope you're well.
I sadly started buying into Marvel Champions only two months ago. Now I'm very disappointed to find that I won't be able to get the older stuff that's already OOP - Captain America and Dr. Strange... I'm a bit of a completionist. I don't know if I will buy any more of it now.
I am not sure how I fell about retiring Hulk... I like Hulk. Part of the fun for me is to figure out how to make his deck work. On the other hand, i play solo very very very rarery. So I dont have the problem solo players are facing. But hey, if they re-print the whole pack, that means one extra hero for me to play ❤
No can buy Sinister Motives. Gone. I agree about Hulk. Worried that new Peter Parker will follow the evolving paradigm (since Galaxies Most Wanted) bent toward elite solo play with munchkin deck builds where each hero can cover all the bases, rather than have a nice flavor (although thematically Spider Man should have a decent thwart). We only play multiplayer + whole box built out for game night, so we pick a hero, pick a villain, and play. All decks are pre-built. But if hero decks become more homogenous, to cover all the bases in solo, then it feels like all heroes are vanilla.
I will say some newer heroes do have weaknesses. Iceman's thwarting, Nightcrawler's damage, and so on. It's tough because the game is advertised for solo and a handful of characters absolutely suffer there.
@@VillainTheory So your'e saying I should >definitely< buy Iceman and Nightcrawler? ;-) Only half kidding here, of course, your points are fair. What I don't understand is how people play the kind of multiplayer games you guys play --where all players build elite decks on-the-fly. Think about how rare that is. That means everyone has a set, everyone is into deck building, everyone has (larger) card collection to make those decks, and everyone can get together to play. I have two other friends who have a set, they're both remote, we go to a con every year, and that's all the play we can get. Unfortunately, my points here all add points to your thoughts about solo play --but then what is the mainstream way to do multiplayer? Are the two inherently at odds? My solution has been to prebuild all the decks (whole box), and bring it to game night with local friends. This may be where Sentinels of the Multiverse outshines Marvel Champions. No deckbuilding, so only one person needs a set for game night.
I agree, i don't really think this change is new player friendly and this is more about being easier for designers, retailers and making production soace by reducing reprints. I think its a necessary evil overall, but yeah, i agree that this doesn't really help new players.
I imagine it helps Arkham Horror players more than Champions. AH doesn't feel as easy to jump in anywhere. Champions is setup that you can just grab your favorite heroes and go. I think the problem Champions has is the high number of hero packs though. Print on demand would be a nice solution for keeping old content in print even if it would cost players more and potentially be a slight decline in quality. But, outside of that I don't think FFG can keep 50+ Marvel Champions products on shelves. Similarly, I think the consensus that content like Galaxy's Most Wanted, Wrecking Crew, Hulk, Valkyrie, etc. are content to either avoid or buy last doesn't help. I don't see a situation where forever in stock is possible. And, if their solution is to have part of the line be cycled and revised, then that seems like an OK compromise.
As someone with a complete collection, the idea of having to waste my money buying 2nd versions of characters I already own does not interest me at all. We still don't even have Daredevil, Ghostrider, and Moon Knight, and they're talking about wasting time and resources re-designing characters I already own?! For new players, this is even worse. Now the markup on older stuff is going to explode even more and make the game less accessible. Completionists won't be satisfied with the "new" version of Captain America, they'll have to buy both. This is just a total lose/lose/lose scenario for everybody. The only winners here are people selling the old stuff on eBay. Very bad news for the game as a whole.
I think ultimately this is a good thing for MC nobody likes change and nobody wants things to stay the same. I will say it will suck not being able to get dr strange or cap but nothing a little proxy can’t fix.
As an entrenched player, assuming with some optimism that this won't dissuade too many new players leading to a decline (fingers very crossed), my next main concern is how diluted new releases will be due to the addition of old hero reworks (plus reprints of aspect cards). Hopefully the impact is modest, I want to see new characters join the roster, I don't want to buy another captain america instead. Reworked Hulk would be nice though.
Couldn't quite tell from my first watch of the stream, but does this apply to campaign boxes as well? It'd be a bummer to think that new players couldn't grab, say, Sinister Motives, which is one of the most iconic and fun campaign boxes in many player's eyes.
From the perspective of a newbie who recently discovered the game and started watching content: I am of two minds about this. On one hand, limiting purchase options is certainly disappointing. I was planning to pick up the core box and some wave 1 heroes to get started with the game and have some deck building options out of the gate. The main thing holding me back has been availability of some hero packs, mainly Cap and Strange. Now it feels like I'll have an even harder time getting them and it did put me off getting into the game... On the other hand, this could be exciting as it might be leading to FFG releasing something like the Arkham revised core box for Marvel Champions. Or just something similar that would make a perfect starting point for a new player. I going to hold out for now and hope that this is indeed what will happen.
I think good thing. I hope they keep the campaigns going though, even if tacked on I think they’re nice to have. New versions of old heroes sounds great. And while the 3 box stories were cool, I’m excited they’ve moved to one shot boxes and bouncing around groups.
What could be awesome 2:54 for them to “revise reprint “ old heros like Captain America and Hulk etc is different but same characters like Sam Wilson capt and red hulk ? That could be cool and they could do that with a lot of heros I believe
I was afraid that this would happen eventually. But what is considered "old content" going out of print? I hope it's just wave 1-4 stuff and not X-men stuff. It would be terrible if one expansion of the trilogy and a whole wave suddendly became unavailable.
They said they considered things from the last 2-3 years to be the "current environment". So if it were fully implemented now, and using the full 3 years as a guideline, it's everything from Sinister Motives to present day. And presumably that means Captain America from Wave 1 to Vision from Mad Titan's Shadow (Wave 4) is now the old, retiring content. It will definitely be difficult for them to phase out Wave 6 (Mutant Genesis) but include Wave 8 (Age of Apocalypse) unless they are content with depriving the remaining X-Men from their toys.
This sucks, MC content will be for assholes on ebay to scalp, old content won't get released so if you take a couple months off the game you're fucked with the good expansions.
I just started playing a year ago and have slowly been building my collection, I still have (had) a long way to go. Hearing I won't be able to complete my collection is really depressing. Cap is a hero I've recently been wanting to get but can't find. Now I know why.
I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hopefully you can find a second-hand Cap or proxy the cards somehow. And hopefully you end up being able to get a newer, more fun version even - fingers crossed!
Nope! Though really it sounds like everything beyond Mutant Genesis is currently in danger? And no list of all of them that are getting new versions - which I expect to be a lengthy process anyway.
I am a new player and it's frustrating when all recommendations suggest Red Skull or Sinister Motives as a first expansion and they are both not obtainable.
Not necessarily, they said certain "key" cards from out-of-print heroes would be reprinted in future hero packs, so it is likely some future hero will come with "Honorary Avenger".
Disappointed about Capt and Doc Strange being retired, as I just started playing a year ago and I missed out on them. It won't be bad, if they release new ones though, maybe if they are better (like Hulk) or less broken (like Doc Strange).
I think the new versions will probably be great? But it's impossible to say right now, I just have faith in Tony. Crossing my fingers that the wait isn't too long
@@VillainTheory Another concern I have is now I don't know what I should buy. I don't want to buy old packs that would be discontinued, only to be replaced with a newer version, ,which would make me have to buy the same hero twice (potentially). Then again, since they may not be releasing new versions of all discontinued packs, I could end up holding off on getting a hero, have it discontinued, with the expectation of getting a new version, only to find out that they aren't going to release a new version of it. Quite frustrating. I hope they are transparent with their discontinued plans, and give people plenty of time to buy ones they plan on discontinuing, but won't be creating new versions of, but something tells me they won't and things will just go *poof* and people like me will just be out of luck, if we didn't get them.
What I hope they do is to replicate the LOTR and Arkham distribution model. Brazil (which is the target audience of my channel) for example is a huge market with no translated MC due to the single pack distribution model. So many people in the world just don’t have access to this game still.
It sounds to me like they needed a way to convince new players to buy new products instead of hunting for old ones. So by saying they will reprint the really popular stuff with new designs then players won’t spend as much time looking for old stuff since a new one will come out sooner or later. And they have less stuff to buy to be caught up to the “current” game
A lot of interesting stuff. Bringing Boggs back to do some work is unexpected, as he's working on a competitive LCG for Earthborne Games. For me them talking about retiring products sucks for those without it all, but it is pretty normal for CCGs. Too many SKUs makes stocking a problem, and changing the release model for AH has caused a ton of confusion with new players. I suspect they repackaged waves didn't sell well enough so instead they can just remove the old stuff and sell it to us again but better!
The new release model is great, as long as you understand the release models. Lots of players go and buy the old boxes thinking they are getting the new ones only to find out they only got 2 scenarios and are best off swallowing that as a loss if they want to complete cycles. Once old inventory is gone its not a problem but lots of LGS still have old stuff they are trying to sell. Bogg's new game is called Hubworld: Aidalon. Theres a Gamefound preview page up but no date for the campaign.
I'm very leery about the cycling and the redone heroes. I quite frankly don't want to buy heroes again, and there's the definite possibility that we'll see arguments on whether it's ok/not ok to use the new characters instead of the old ones (or like you say, more/less fun). We'll see how it looks, but I guess now I have to put some extra effort in filling the gaps in my collection (thankfully those are Ms. Marvel and the guardians waves, for the most part).
Well, I only started playing this past year just before Magneto was released, so I suppose I count as a new player, right? I appreciate all of these creators making their buying guides and "how to get started" videos, but honestly, in order to get into Marvel Champions, all you need to do is buy the core box and your favorite hero, whether they're an individual pack or in an expansion box. That's what I did; Core Box, Mutant Genesis (for Colossus), and Thor. I'm all started. From there I can just start buying stuff that interests me. The only reason it might be difficult to "get into" the game is if your favorite hero is out of print, or if you're getting into it purely as a game and not a Marvel fan, so you're only judging cards based off of objective game power and not how cool the character is. So, honestly, I think the idea that new players need to be catered to with this "standard format" idea is kinda bullshit. None of the expansion boxes are so pitifully bad that someone would push you away from them even if your favorite hero is in them (even if your favorite heroes are Groot and Rocket, you should still get Galaxys' Most Wanted even if the villains in that are hard). In regards to some of the other changes; based on what they focus on, things like wanting to nerf powerful cards or improve weak ones, block off older boxes in favor of balancing around the current sets, a lot of these changes seem to be based around the idea of power level, wanting the cards to be generally balanced in regards to power. If you'll pardon my French, I think that's *fucking stupid* because Marvel Champions is a *co-operative game.* Why does power level matter when all players are working together? There's no Mr. Suitcase to overcome who buys all the cards and thus has all the best decks, because that player is _working alongside you!_ I feel like FFG has been tweaking a lot of things to take away some player power and keep players "under control", trying to take what they think are exploits out of the rules and nerfing interactions like "what happens if you play a card that reveals until you hit a minion and there's no minions left in deck?" (I think the answer should be shuffle up and keep revealing until you hit one, FFG apparently thinks you're supposed to shuffle up and stop revealing and your card just whiffs with no effect, because FFG apparently wants every card that does that and heroes that need minions to activate to be absolutely useless). I don't get why! The only opponent is automated! It won't hurt their feelings if I figure out some powerful interaction! Some opponents are very difficult and I should be able to have every tactic at my disposal to beat them! It _especially_ annoys me as someone who plays solo; it's like FFG is trying to butt into my personal time and tell me how to play with my toys. I'm a little mixed on the idea of releasing new versions of out of print heroes, but I do think it could be for the best. While it will bother me as a completionist to struggle to get the "classic" versions if I want them specifically, generally heroes that are out of print are out of print because they're old, and old heroes tend to be a little basic because, well, they were made before a lot of the modern mechanics were introduced. It's not that they're out of date; Cap and Strange are still some of the most powerful heroes in the game. But like, as an example, Cable really introduced the idea of player side schemes, so if you want a deck built around player side schemes, you really want to use specifically heroes and cards printed after Cable's introduction, because all cards printed before then operated under the assumption that such a thing didn't exist. So all cards built around finding and clearing player side schemes will be post-Cable. if they reintroduce old heroes with new mechanics, they can have these old characters interact with these new mechanics, and freshen up how they play. A lot of the heroes in the core box feel a little outdated, and it would be nice to have some iconic heroes feel more in line with the current ones. There are just some mechanics they introduced later in the game that these early heroes can never interact with. I guess the idea of reintroducing old heroes is particularly good for me, a new player who hasn't bought them. But as always, I worry about the established players who now feel like they have to buy these old heroes all over again. If FFG starts refreshing old heroes now, they could theoretically just start doing old heroes forever and making money off of "old content", and I'm mixed on how I feel about that. But it would be so nice if new players could get their hands on such iconic heroes, and potentially even improved versions (hopefully, assuming FFG doesn't feel the need to once again nerf characters in a _co-operative game!_ A new player isn't going to want to feel like their Strange is just worse than someone else's Strange because they started playing earlier!).
re the separate environments announcement: I'm willing to bet that everyone has been playing a game that's been designed as if there are different environments for a while now. Think about it. Are they running a lot of playtests to see how it feels if Valkyrie or Dr Strange's premade decks run through Agents of SHIELD? I doubt it, because there's only so many hours in a day and FFG would rather focus on making sure characters released in the past year feel good in these encounters because those are the ones who are going to sit next to it on a shelf. Everything before a certain point would just be left up to faith in the general sturdiness of the system. Thus, this is less a major shift in policy and more just... admitting how things end up being for structural reasons.
They do have a good number of playtesters to help with testing, though I think you are right. I've heard mixed comments about their testing too. Sometimes they are reluctant to add something to the card pool for balance reasons, then in the next interview they say they balance around the precons and let deckbuilders go wild with crazy combos. And then we have situations like Rocket and Groot being in the box with Galaxy's Most Wanted which I suspect didn't end up as they intended in terms of power/balance anyway.
I buy and play lcg to get away from the "current meta, OOP scalper" environment. The "current vs legacy" and "not reprinting" announcements are horrendous in my opinion. I'm cautious about boggs coming back. Having a "guest star designer" come in, especially one with history, can lead to things getting greenlit that would otherwise see a lot more gameplay and balance tweaks. I'm not saying it can't be good, but I'm not hyped for it either.
I realize I should have shared that they said EVERYTHING will be backwards compatible, so old heroes will always be usable etc in case there was any doubt. They also made a big emphasis on wanting to support Marvel Champions as long as possible and that it's in a really healthy place!
EDIT: They posted an article about it: www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2025/2/7/designer-journal-introducing-current-and-legacy-environments/
I was so confused! I didn't watch the live stream so I was like are my old heroes useless now?? Good to know they are not!
@@6O8gamer07 So sorry! Yes, all our old heroes are still valid choices! I personally doubt we'll even see "new versions" for at least a year if not longer.
@@VillainTheory The big one I want is Hulk anyways. I've been buying every product since Phase 1 (or whatever it's called). So, I'm personally in no rush. But I do feel bad for new players. If Cap is your favorite hero.... that kinda sucks....
This is a good point to add here. Thanks for including this note. 🙂
@@VillainTheory It is tough for those without Wave 1 standouts like Cap. I am sure they will actually do a new core box with updated versions of Cap, Thor, Strange, IronMan, etc. That way they can reprint the rules and have a product that sells strong with big name heroes people have wanted but can’t get at the moment.
Due to how much I love Marvel Champions I wanted to get into the LoTR LCG, but when I found out I couldn't get the old stuff (without spending a fortune on eBay) and the revised edition wouldn't include everything I decided not to.
For me having options denied to me is way worse than having too many options and it being harder to know what order to get it in.
Yeah. I also decided not to get into LoTR for the same reason. I'd just end up frustrated.
The Arkham Horror LCG revised editions do include everything though and the new format is really new players friendly.
Ultimately I think they knew it was a net negative, which is why they tried to put so many positive spins on the situation. And I don't disagree with the positive parts of it. It feels like it was inevitable? So at least there are those silver linings - even if it doesn't feel great to me. Hopefully it doesn't put off too many new players.
@@MattJJKenny I had an identical experience with LOTR. It’s weird to me that they think this is a good way to get new players in
@@VillainTheory It's definitely inevitable (like Thanos), but it's still sad it's now.
Im glad its a co-op so i can just ignore any sort of rotation and always just happily use my collection without it being made obsolete
I would love it if they made a new Hulk! I get very frustrated in solo with Hulk, so if they had an answer for that it would be amazing.
Hulk smash? NO! Hulk SOLO!
Ahem. Let's cross our fingers. There's no guarantee of a new Hulk but I cannot imagine a world where that doesn't happen.
Why not a different version, like the Red Hulk? That would be interesting.
I actually really love that there are very weak and very strong characters in this game, because its like having multiple levers. "This scenario was way too hard! I'm gonna try it with Strange." or "Damn, that was a cake walk even on expert II. I'm gonna grab Hulk for this."
I’m glad that when I started a year or 2? ago I went crazy and just kept buying stuff until I was all caught up except nebula and ironheart and I got those last Black Friday.
Not reprinting cap and strange is going to be rough for new players or players that didn’t get them yet.
On the other hand, they did say they were doing new versions of some old heroes, and I have to imagine a new Captain America and Doctor Strange will be among the priorities. Crossing my fingers! It may be that new players get much better versions and all the best aspect cards from them still, just takes some waiting.
I am in that boat :(
@@Quinsec that stinks. Hope you find an affordable set soon.
People are always selling off their collection and you may get lucky and find one hanging out at a store shelf
Thank you for the update, Villain! Sincerely appreciate the upload!
You're welcome!
It was as you said, a business decision.
Canceling the game due to people not being willing to buy a box full of reprints when they can’t get specific cards from older sets will be a “business decision,” too.
Yes, bring on New Hulk!!!!!
Edit: I’ll be sticking with Legacy environment. I’m not a fan of the idea of having TCG-like formats.
A new Hulk and new Valkyrie would be great.
Except for Hulk, i will NOT buy another version of any other hero. And if they make the new ones that comes out "incompatible" with "legacy" it will be the end of my marvel champions road for me. I own verything. I want to keep being able to add new things without starting over.
Yes, I agree with you completely! After spending so much money on MC, there’s no chance I’ll be rebuying older heroes.
As someone who spent way too much trying to catch up and spending a lot on the old stuff, hearing that they are being replaced by a "current environment" really takes a lot of wind out of my sails.
Why? This isn't a competitive game.
As someone who has been playing since day 1, same. I will play the game until it dies but I don't see it lasting very long.
I'm sorry to hear that. For what it's worth, I think most of us will continue to play the "legacy environment" and the old heroes will be as fun as they always were! You will have more options than "current environment" players. I am actually worried the new versions of older heroes may not actually be as fun as the originals. The designers are great but the original Captain America is widely loved.
@@RobPhifer Because if people love the game, they probably want to have the whole content for it and not printing stuff makes it impossible/very expensive on 2nd hand market? What would competitiveness change in this case?
I really wish they would make that bundle box of all the wave 1 heros in english.
Unfortunately they did, and it's sold out everywhere, but apparently still not selling enough to keep printing it
@@VillainTheory That’s what doesn’t make sense here. If these products are selling out completely globally, how could they not be making enough money on them to justify printing more? They’re literally sold out.
@@VillainTheory what a horrible time to get into this game! I just started last month. I should have just stayed away at this point.
@@apigeon5475 why though? The game is still amazing even with an incomplete collection, way better than not playing it at all! We played for years with a small cardpool and it was already great. I understand the frustration, but still.
My gosh...Boggs back for a stint??? Sign me up right there!!
Thanks for the video, I missed the stream and this helped. I’m not optimistic about the changes but I am 100% okay with being wrong. Just going to have to wait and see.
Being a potential new player this is real frustrating. Yes, you can say I should have gotten into the game way sooner but now I feel like if I buy the game finally, its a ticking clock to get what I want. its a bigger issue when some characters are out of print and they are iconic characters. I doubt that people don't want to play as CAP and that's why its not worth a reprint. Just do print on demand and that solves an issue. You can still have your two year environment and keep older cards in print.
I have mixed feelings as well about the hero redesigns plus the labelling parts of the game now with "legacy" vs "current". I look at how much money I put into the game just to know it's now "legacy" feels off-putting even if it's all backward compatible. If the hero redesigns are technically new characters like Red Hulk, I might be more onboard as opposed to a Dr. Strange 2.0. I think Dr. Strange is fine just the way he is personally (same for Captain America). I'm glad to hear Boggs will be back for some new designs. I'm hoping MJ will come back and do Cloak & Dagger like she wanted as well.
What I think is villain theory needs to keep making marvel champions videos for years to come!!!!
Haha! At one point I said to myself I was going to quit if I got to 1,000 subscribers and I'm still here now! So who knows! 🤣
VillianTheory! VillianTheory!
The problem i have with this new system is that theres zero possibility they redo EVERY older hero. That would lead them into the exact same scenario. As a hypothetical If this were to happen tomorrow, and the current environment is only the last 2-3 years, then the only available product would be the Core set, Mutants waves, and the S.H.I.E.L.D wave by the time the S.H.I.E.L.D wave is completely released. Those core set heroes would feel severely lacking without any form of additional trait support to newer players, not to mention the entire Guardians and previous Web Warriors (with a new one being announced next week) being retired and big villain names like Red Skull and Thanos.
If theyre planning on releasing new versions of heroes they really need to announce those around the same time they announce the old one retiring soon or theres gonna be even more insanity with scalpers buying up everything and charging ridiculous amounts to those trying to play their favorite hero.
I think I agree with this. We were talking on Discord where I was saying about what would happen when Wave 6 (Mutant Genesis) left the rotation, but Wave 8 (Age of Apocalypse) was still in it? That's 6 X-Men heroes who just lost a bunch of synergy as all their X-Men toys leave the "current environment". Stopping trilogies will help with this, but they are really going to have to up their release cadence in general to keep tools for core heroes coming around. There are a few other downsides that could spin off from this, so I hope it's all carefully navigated.
It seems like a big ask but I have a lot of faith in Tony.
@@VillainTheory One positive I could maybe see is if older Villains get retired we may see alternate scenarios for them in the future. Maybe a true Loki scenario without being forced into the Infinity Gauntlet modular is an actual possibility now.
I just really can't shake the feeling though that this isn't because they aren't seeing demand for these products (God knows there is demand for Cap and Strange as usually its the first thing I see when scrolling the facebook or reddit groups every time I load them up) but more that they are trying to find a way to sell us these products more than once by throwing a shiny coat of paint on it and calling it new.
@@GaNSiNaTeR They don't need to do anything to get people to re-buy alternate versions of older heroes. The community has been asking for that for at least a couple years now. The number of people wanting alternate hero/alter-ego cards, multiverse versions of heroes, fixed versions of some of the duds, etc. has been repeatedly asked for.
There's also been a clamoring for a revised core box to bring the core box heroes a little more up to date with the current content.
@VaultBoy13 Except the only hero the community has even asked for an alternative has been the Hulk because of designer insight that he was changed shortly before release into the not so fun version we got.
Them reselling the original lineup with a new coat of paint would be a HUGE slap in the face to existing consumers that have been waiting for major heroes that arent in the game yet, not to mention they've stated the core set will stay in production so those heroes wont even be on the list of new versions...
Unaddressed is the problem that Aspects have grown to the point where they can have certain archetypes regardless of hero; think Dive Bomb/Honed Technique or Global Logistics/s.h.i.e.l.d. card. The list is extensive because deck builders are clever.
New synergies will, of course, arise with new releases but I would expect some current popular deck builds to be priced out of the market regardless of what hero they are nominally attached to.
Odd behavior coming from a non-competitive game.
This seems like an inevitable part of the games life cycle. There are downsides but overall I’m optimistic. I like the idea of revisiting design on a select number of classic heroes if it doesn’t get excessive. It also makes sense to me from the design side to need a “checkpoint” in the thousands of cards in the ecosystem.
The negatives are if aspect card reprints became excessive and the general impact out-of-print has on new “all-in” type of players.
Still excited for the game and looking forward to what’s ahead! More Bogg’s design is great! Moving away from trilogy waves makes sense and I’m excited to see a bigger variety with each wave.
Thanks for the update. I'm a little puzzled because of the FFG decision not to print old hero packs or expansion sets. They have already developed products that don't cost much to print, so basically they print money, and just like that they decided not to do it anymore. It's just strange, I'm not frustrated because I'm missing 4 hero packs (not popular ones), but I have this gut feeling that Asmodee/FFG is cooking something like they did with many other games of theirs.
I'm sure sales of the old stuff has slowed way down so this is a way to get more people to buy those heroes again and boost revenue for the company.
I’m going to buy all the heroes I already have all over again aren’t I. 😅
Me and you both
I don't like it but I understand they can't keep reprinting stock indefinitely. I really hate the idea of remaking old heroes though. The Hulk is one thing sure but I would rather not have to re-buy heroes like Captain America v2.0 now with better shield as that not only makes my existing version of the hero redundant and destined for the bin but it also means they are going to push us into replacing our whole collection with obligatory updates instead of fun new heroes.
Nothing in this game is obligatory. They can make fun new versions of old heroes. I'm here for it.
@@QuiveringEye You do you then. I said my piece.
@@gameguy1337 Yes, and it's not a necessary conclusion that it will make an old hero redundant.
I am hopeful that the new versions of heroes won't just be power-creeped improvements. The way they phrased it suggested a fresh perspective on their designs. The ideal world has the original versions and new versions both be distinct and fun from each other, and equally valid choices.
@@QuiveringEye I have nothing else to say as you've already made up your mind. Stop trying to argue a moot point.
From a pure business perspective, it's unsustainable to keep so many products in print. The alternative to revisiting old heroes would be to just let them lapse, and IMO that would be worse. Having a Marvel game where you can't get Captain America or Hulk would be a weird choice.
I've been a proponent of revisiting some of the heroes whose designs didn't quite hit the mark the first time around, so in general I'm positive towards this on top of understanding that some kind of shift is necessary.
The end of trilogies is only positive IMO. One wave is long enough to focus on a single group or theme.
Retiring some of the aspect and basic cards that nobody uses sounds like a good idea. This also allows them to reconsider some of the cards that may have become a bit too ubiqutous.
Of course, I'm writing all of this from the perspective of someone who's been with the game since the release of the core box so take that for what it's worth.
From a collector point of view I'm glad that I got in a few months ago and especially on the German version, we still have Strange and Cap available.
For gameplay, I think it's better to limit the design space a bit, so having a standard format can be quite healthy for the game. Keeps power creep in check and makes deck-building much more fun for me if some of the staple cards rotate out every now and then. Of course FFG will want to make money, so they probably evaluated that this format makes them more than reprinting the old packs.
I think best for everyone would be to have some kickstarter-like system, where people could pledge for old packs they want and if enough people do so, they get a reprint run..
End of Trilogies is probably a good thing. I've heard a lot that people are "tired" of mutants. This will allow Ffg to bounce between smaller teams without being held to forcing connections for the overall story.
I'd love it if new good heroes came with old good cards. I don't have a complete collection at this point, and hope this announcement means I'll get the important holes in my cards filled in going further rather than deciding if I'm going to buy an older so-so hero to get one or two good aspect cards. We'll see.
Looking forward to an updated, and repowered, Black Widow in the future! I have gotten my money from that character, and I am happy to purchase a new version.
It looks like the Agents of SHIELD box will have a ton of cards that upgrade current Black Widow quite a bit.
A new Black Widow would be great! Or even a Yelena. Also agreed with @jesot, I think she is about to get a kind of upgrade anyway!
@@jesot Yes!!! And I love Agents of Shield, and I was already excited about this box set even before seeing that Spy was getting some help. But after the changes with Quickstrike, I want Black Widow to get her sting back.
Yeah, In super stoked to revisit her. She's definitely in my top 3 most played heroes, and I haven't touched her in years because I kind of did everything I wanted to with her. I think now there will be new things to try.
Yea I’ll buy an OG Boggs Hulk release! Sounds good to me.
Let's hope for it!
I think the no reprint pill would have been easier to swallow if they did one last small run of them, even if it was crowd funded and slightly marked up. Feels bad to pass up packs that were 10$ marked up holding out for a reprint to know I’m just hosed now.
This is a weird situation because on one hand getting a new Hulk would be great but on the other hand Captain America and Doctor Strange in the original versions are really good, so it would be scummy if they redid them but nerfed.
Or worse, better. If they were nerfed we simply don't need to buy the new versions.
I want a nerfed Dr Strange that isn't so abusable and therefore fun.
@RobPhifer That's a fair opinion but remember there's alot of people who don't have the original. A nerfed version that might be more fun for people that didn't like the original ain't gonna be fair to newer players. Especially if they also nerf cards like Night Nurse and Iron Fist which were only available by buying his hero pack.
I don't know if I would use the word "scummy" here. It's not a competitive game so a weaker version of a hero isn't really going to put anyone at a meaningful disadvantage, though I do agree it feels bad to have something more powerful taken away as an option. Even if I personally would prefer a slightly weaker (but not WEAK) version of Strange.
@@RobPhifer Me too. I'd actually be OK with a version of Doctor Strange that is more interesting to play. All he wants to be doing is interacting with the invocation deck. He's powerful, but he's not very interesting. A re-design that opened up Doctor Strange would be welcome.
I think doing a bit of both is the content I'd be most interested in, but I also think that makes more work for content creators for little return unless they're split into multiple videos. My current plan is to play legacy. I bought the whole collection and I intend to use my whole collection.
Honestly I'm viewing the new format as more of a "challenge mode" where if I want a greater challenge I can do that instead, the same way some people play older boxes using only what was available when they released. So I could definitely see myself being interested in what other people are playing in that format. That said, I don't forsee it being my primary method of playing at all
Thanks for the feedback! And that's a great way to look at it. Right now I'm not sure what I'm going to do, definitely got some mixed feelings. We'll see where it all settles!
@ honestly as time goes on I’d expect to see creators shift focus to the “current” format since that’ll likely be what newer players will be entering through, so that’s where viewer base growth will be.
Also the whole like rolling window of content will be a bit weird with people having different starting points
@@Husky-bugbear I don't think people have the same starting points now outside the core box. I think a lot of people jumped straight to Web Warriors or X-Men.
@ that true but there’s kinda two groups right now: a persons individual collection and the entire card pool which has always been completely available (outside of maybe strange and cap).
Going forward there will be be individual card pool, everything, and everything up to whatever happened to be in print whenever a person started which is a thing that will change every time more stuff is “retired.” so the people who have “everything” becomes a smaller group over time (the longer things are out of print), and therefore each of those “everything up to X point” groups become harder to target with content imo
Oh wow, I guess it'll have to do with how they implement it. I'd love to see a new She-hulk, but by the same token, we all have favorite heroes who haven't made it into the game yet. I'm still holding out hope for a playable Moon Knight deck. Maybe getting back to a more consistent release schedule will help? And going to single-box designs gives me hope for the future that we'll get a Midnight Sons box. Great video, thanks for the info!
Thanks for this video!
You are the villan theory guy right?
Let me pitch you a video idea hope you will like it -
What if agents of shield will just lead go civil war?
The villans will be heroes like we got with black widow yeleana?
I hope you can make video about it
Every week someone tells me I’m too down on FFG for the way they crap on customers. And every week we see crap like this come from their mouths.
I would love to be able to mix and match. If they make a new Doctor Strange, I would like to be able to take out card #12 from one of his I-15 for the card #12 in the other I-15.
It's your game. There's no reason you couldn't do this.
As much as it’s hard to hear that old content is getting retired. It seems like that was gonna happen no matter what, so better to address it with a plan than have material not in print but not openly retired.
Definitely agreed on this front. I was hoping it would keep being reprinted somehow but, if it's not viable, it's not viable.
1. Having to revisit old Heros under different game mechanics \design could be great.
2. Retiring old cards is bad for new people. - Im such a person that if I know I can't collect it all then I won't be interested in the game to begin with. Just like Marvel Untied and many of its Kickstart exclusive content\limited releases.
I seen many people disappointed for not being able to find Doctor Strange and Captain America.
I understand their reasons. But they could just keep selling them in their site under "legacy content", and even charge more if its not worth for them to print old cards.
Hero collection packs could be great solution.
There are countless of great solutions that they chose not to take. And that's sucks
I kind of agree with all of this. I loved Arkham's newer release model and the European hero pack collections in English sold out everywhere that I can see.
The end of trilogies might have a positive side effect of no more support bloat, something that is very visible for mutants, where the amount of grey cards you really want to include was bit too much for me, basically it reduced deck building because of how many auto includes there was ,especially in leadership
I have seen Silk ID (she is available for pre-order in some stores, with pictures of ID...), and without the rest of her cards, for me, power wise, she is strictly in "I have no idea" territory, so looking forward to an article next week
Their licensing agreement for mutants required them to release them consecutively for some reason.
Arkham Horror LCG got a similar announcement as well. I think this is a more positive change for Arkham but not so much for MC.
YEAH! Another web warrior! My favorite trait!
I got into the game after mutant Genesis.
The thing that sucks is every time I ask someone who they want to play, the first hero they say is captain America. I'm glad I was able to find all of the heroes in stores and didn't have to worry about scalpers upping the price. People getting into the game won't have the same luck because of this decision.
They haven't shown us they can keep up the release pace they've been talking about for years. I don't have faith they'll meet those goals. "We're producing content quicker! But its less content (no scenario packs or OP Kits) and it's old heroes so you can buy them a second time!" We will see what happens. The secondary market is about to go WILD, if theres a hero you want I suggest you get it now before scalpers try to make their buck.
There is a lot to say but I will just leave a quick comment. I am very disappointed, finding older Marvel Champions content was already tough. As a new player YES I want older content. Even though I like X-Men there are tons of great and fun cards to collect.
They make a lot of excuses but to me it just sounds like they think it isn't worth the money reprinting. It probably wasn't on purpose, but this puts EXTREME pressure on people to buy everything as it releases because they will worry about things going out of print. This feels really bad as a consumer.
The thing about 'legacy' vs 'current' environment just doesnt work in this case. It works in something like Magic the gathering because it forces you and your OPPONENT under the same restrictions. With champions being cooperative youre just hampering your own potential by not playing the legacy cards. And when you play with others whst are you going to do? Tell them not to use the products they own just because you cant find it? Im excited for them to try new versions of old heroes but the legacy news is bad. And thos is coming from someone who wont even be that effected by it since im only missing War Machine. I just feel for new players.
I don't know. Is it so bad to imagine an environment that doesn't have Honed Technique and how that'd help open up the design space for Aggression? Sure, you can play legacy and used Honed Technique with the new cards, but the designers not having to balance every Aggression card against Honed Technique is a good thing.
And, it's not like they couldn't release something similar to Honed Technique in a future pack that's doesn't break the design space for the aspect.
I would imagine when you play with others you talk to each other and decide on a format. I don't see how it's difficult?
Interesting, we have to see what they'll do! I wonder if they'll put out a new Core box, the Fantastic Four maybe with all four heroes?
They said in the video that the core box was not changing.
@@ryanellett5485 Right, but they also mentioned making more entry points for new people to come into the game along with ways of adjusting old cards that felt too powerful or weak. + Rumor has it that the F4 expansion will be different from past expansions, so I'm curious what this will entail.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a Revised Core with some added staple cards and OG Captain America. They did the same with Arkham (as far as adding important cards from other sets like Charisma).
D20 hypothesized that fantastic four would also be a new core box. I think that seems more likely now.
2:45 I think saying "You like Spider-Man, buy Sinister Motives," implies that a new player knows that it is a product they can buy. If it's not on the shelf when they discover the game, they don't know it exists.
It's easy to come at this from an informed perspective, but I imagine that a lot of players don't even know that Fantasy flight Games is the company that makes Marvel Champions. They don't have the Discord links. They don't see the announcements. They just know they like the game.
I might be missing something but I'm not certain what difference it makes. If someone likes spider-characters and sees a box with spider characters on it then they can buy it without any special knowledge. And if it's not on the shelf, and they don't research anything, they won't buy it. But that basically also goes for anything they might release in the future unless they're going to start advertising some kind of purchase order.
I think it’s mostly good. I also want a 3rd version, the “current cards” play every hero. Eg I can use thor but limit the pool to the current pool of aspect and neutral
I guess it has it's pros and cons. It's nice to redo some misses with heroes like the Hulk but it sucks for players who are newer to the game who can't get the old content. It can suck for older players too because we have to get redone heroes too now lol. I guess it can be a good thing though to be able to play redone hero in a different way, especially if they just tweak the hero's appearance as well, like a Weapon X version of Wolverine, or a Symbiote Suit version of Spider-Man, or a World War Hulk version. Lots of interesting alternatives.
I like your videos and watch them last weeks since I found you. I love marvel champions and fantasy flight games. I agree and disagree in some things though. The core rules and learn to play are one of the worst rules I have ever seen in a board game. I mean reaching 1.6 because nothing was clear is very bad for new players and even experienced ones. The learn to play should be in steps with screenshots not like it is. We have more than 60-70 hours in the game mostly 2 players and we still sometimes have to check basic things. Of course new things and keywords are added with expansions and characters but they are not explained well. The second thing I won't like probably is the legacy current system you mentioned. We already have so many things to check and how to start/buy things. Adding one more confusion/layer is not good. Those errors were made in the previous arkham horror lcg before revised. Glad they made revised. Campaign + characters expansion. Some seperate investigators and missions. So simple! Even if characters stand alone are more profitable they should first care for players and simplicity and then everything else. Finally is hard to find some things already like doctor strange and some expansions.
As a new player since Christmas this whole thing disappoints me. It's already getting harder to get some of the older big box expansions and a lot of the older hero decks have cards that are staples in deckbuilding. If they never come back into print then when do I get Cap or Ant-man?
Ant-Man is still readily available if that helps. The only heroes hard to find right now are Cap and Dr Strange. I would focus on just getting some characters you really want.
That's the neet part, You don't.
@@gameguy1337 War Machine is also nearly impossible to find.
I found strange today at a UK retailer boardgame geeks
I believe the idea is that they might print new versions of those heroes. So, in theory, you get an improved version - just at a later date. Unfortunately there are no guarantees which heroes will get a new version and when that might be, so I definitely understand the disappointment regardless. At least I am fairly confident they will prioritize Cap, he is widely loved in and out of Champions.
I got into this game a little over a month ago, hearing them talk about out of print really upsets me
FFG had to tackle the reprints issue one way or another and the option they're going with seems to make the most sense financially without hurting the players in a significant way. I just wish more details were given so we have a better picture of 'revised' heroes. The whole distinction between 'current' and 'legacy' will be silly in a LCG sphere, though.
It definitely feels like the reprints weren't financially/logistically sustainable, so I guess it was going to happen one way or the other. It feels like a bitter pill to swallow even though it doesn't affect me much? We'll have to see how it all shakes out.
I assumed they would be releasing those hero box sets like we've seen for wave 1 and 2 in other countries and that's why the wave 1 hero packs were drying up. It's the model they've used for Arkham, so I assumed they would move that way too, for shelf space efficiency and sustainability. I think this is a very bad move, as if your favourite heros are from the MCU, then being denied Cap, Thor, Hulk, BW, Strange and presumably at some point the wave 2 avengers may be a real turn off for new players
Boggs is one of my favorite designers along with MJ, so definitely glad if he's back. Sad/disappointed to hear that products won't be getting reprints. It'll depend on what their plans are around that - Will they be releasing a new core set? If they're basically going to be releasing 2.0 versions of the older heroes, I'm not necessarily against that as long as the new versions are as close as they can be to the originals, just with the minimum tweaks needed to balance them appropriately for the current game.
My understanding was the core set will remain the same, and the new versions of heroes will be completely new designs, but until we see a finished product or hear more I'm not totally sure what it will end up looking like.
@@VillainTheory Ah yeah, I went and watched the stream replay which seemingly confirms your understanding of things. Not thrilled about it :/
Not reprinting old heroes is a terrible idea
As a newer player, while I don't want to suggest that I liked how sales have been handled thus far, I don't feel overwhelmed and don't know where to start. I'd typically just shoot at theme and frankly if I managed to go through the SIXTY TWO PAGE RULESHEET then I can handle finding the content in a pack through Google. If you don't want to overwhelm players, simplify the rules don't change the purchasing decisions. You already did spiderman, move onto a new thing, I would much rather see new heroes as opposed to old hero reskins, and I'd say that's more confusing because now I won't know which version of spiderman I am getting under the new system (yes I know he's in the core game, ignore that momentarily)
I’m torn. Just picked up MC about 10 months ago and have been buying in release order to get a feel for how it evolved, but I’m buying characters I know I won’t play just to get a couple cards that may help with deck building when I eventually get to the characters I want to play.
(Admittedly, that’s a ME problem).
Regardless, big fan of the channel, has helped me a lot as I’ve gotten into this awesome game.
I will say I think almost every character is worth playing if you find time! But that's totally fair. And thank you!
A 'standard' and 'legacy' environment system does not appeal to me at all. There are no tournaments in this game, so I don't think it makes much sense. All that just so new players don't feel bad? There are some incredible cards and available (in print) heroes out there and it should be enough for anyone new to the game.
I think it would be just fine if they reprint staples from time to time.
It's a bit odd, I actually don't expect to notice much different in terms of scenario difficulty etc. I just worry they will stop caring about any semblance of balance for older heroes and card combinations. I love the depth that deck-building currently has and the smaller "current environment" won't be the same. Sure, there is already some wonky stuff, but if they stop worrying about balance with old combos it could go off the rails.
But hopefully not! A lot of what Tony said sounded pretty balance-focused to some degree.
I’m not a fan of this. To me, it feels like a money grab and not working with all those that have been supporting the game. I won’t be buying the new reprinted heroes just for a few small adjustments. I would have preferred upgrade packs to older heroes instead.
I am mixed on this. But it would be great if the new design of old heroes comes with all the lessons learned from the many years since their release.
Boxes without campaigns sounds like lower value, but then I think of the sinister motives "campaign" and I dont mind it as much😅
Well the "no campaigns" thing was purely my opinion, they aren't doing that as far as I know! As long as the cards/paper that would have formed those campaigns went into other things (more mod sets, aspect cards, or new game modes etc) I would be very happy with it. Just getting less would be sad. They are just no longer doing trilogies of boxes themed together.
As for new versions of old heroes...maybe you'll get Black Widow with a sniper rifle? 😉
@VillainTheory A Black Widow sniper that actually oneshots her targets (on her own). Got a random mantis today for some nice onetaps in qm 😇)
They’ve observed a bias inherent to people related to what they experience first. Like as an example, if you read a book before you see a movie you’ll probably enjoy the book more. Obviously there are exceptions to this. My main point is, I think those of us who are used to the older version of a hero we’re going to prefer them that way. Even Hulk has his fans. However, I think a brand new player with 0 bias is just going to want to play their favorite hero and won’t care unless somebody influences them otherwise.
Yes, one Cap will objectively likely end up being better than the other Cap but at the end of the day people just want to play their favorite heroes.
Just my opinion, I could be entirely wrong but I think there’s some merit to it and at the end of the day, if nothing else, they’re running it as a business. They’re going to make what they consider the best business decision and unfortunately “new” is often enough to generate interest above “good”.
Totally fair! I really wish there was a way to package and sell the old stuff indefinitely - or at least for a while longer. I know my local stores still sell the older stuff even if it doesn't rush off the shelves like a new product. But you are right that a business will and has to make the right business decision. Hopefully it pays off for them without inconveniencing us. Something I don't think I touched on in the video is I am slightly worried we are just going to be bombarded with even more reprints in future hero packs now.
I do highly want reworked cards and heroes....so perhaps selfishly since I own it all I'd rather them cut out old content if that means getting to revisit them in the future.
But yah - a happy medium ground would be print and play for outdated content.
I’m the type of person that needs to have it all. If they streamline it for someone like me who hasn’t bought in yet that’s cool.
If you need to have it all, I have bad news for you. Unless you already have Doctor Strange and Captain America, you're screwed by this change.
If they are going to release updated heroes then it would be good if they offered wave packs of only those updated cards for those who already have the heroes. Unless, of course, every card & design will be different to mine as much money out of us as possible.
My impression was that the heroes will be completely new designs, but the aspect/basic cards would sometimes be the same, sometimes have little changes, and some cards might just not be reprinted at all.
@@VillainTheory It does sound like that, which I am still unsure how I feel.
When Shuri came out I did post somewhere that this could be a way of updating those core heroes but as others have said, would you want to play a Hulk that isnt the Hulk, or Cap?
Another thing is, how can it be a living card game if certain content, when out of print, is now dead for current/new players?
@@Dedge77 I don't think there was anything about living card games keeping expansions available for the life of the game. It was about expansions having fixed cards and not having to deal with things like boosters.
I think with the longevity of AH and Champions FFG have hit the limit of how much content they can keep on shelves. The games are popular enough to keep making content, but old content isn't selling well enough to keep it in print. I don't think they have an option.
I like the new versions of heroes but not having access to old cards is kinda gross. I do like redone heroes though. I feel like you just need to sell hero packs. I just started up with a new player who started this christmas. They are having a tough time buying into the older packs and I feel for em.
That is a shame, I hope they can find what they're looking for or are content to wait for possible new versions of those heroes.
Kinda got a lot to say here, so apologies if this goes on a bit.
-Agree regarding Arkham Horror campaigns. But I like that they try nonetheless.
-Feel kinda sad about new players being locked out of the old content and potentially ripped off by scalpers. Can't help but feel that keeping the Expansions in print and doing Hero wave boxes (kinda like the Arkham Horror investigator boxes) might be a fairer way to go. That said, I am curious about how they plan to go about this. Will probably bring whatever to games, as that's just what I do. I lose, I lose. That's just how games go at times.
-Not surprised it's likely Silk, but was wondering if Quake might be in with a shout. Highly suspect that the last two are The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
-Kinda bummed about the AoS delay, but then I recall last year...still, a little more time to speculate on the 5th villain (I'm going with Baron Zemo).
-The end of trilogies is kinda good news, as in all honesty what's left that can support one? To my mind, there's Fantastic Four, Midnight Suns, Defenders...all of which can easily be one box deals. Still, allows for plenty of opportunities to freshen things up a bit. Say next year is Defenders, then they follow up with Midnight Suns.
-Nothing said about scenario packs. Hopefully they come back too. Galactus would make a good one, assuming he isn't in the F4 box.
Hope you're well.
I sadly started buying into Marvel Champions only two months ago. Now I'm very disappointed to find that I won't be able to get the older stuff that's already OOP - Captain America and Dr. Strange... I'm a bit of a completionist. I don't know if I will buy any more of it now.
I am not sure how I fell about retiring Hulk... I like Hulk. Part of the fun for me is to figure out how to make his deck work. On the other hand, i play solo very very very rarery. So I dont have the problem solo players are facing. But hey, if they re-print the whole pack, that means one extra hero for me to play ❤
No can buy Sinister Motives. Gone. I agree about Hulk. Worried that new Peter Parker will follow the evolving paradigm (since Galaxies Most Wanted) bent toward elite solo play with munchkin deck builds where each hero can cover all the bases, rather than have a nice flavor (although thematically Spider Man should have a decent thwart). We only play multiplayer + whole box built out for game night, so we pick a hero, pick a villain, and play. All decks are pre-built. But if hero decks become more homogenous, to cover all the bases in solo, then it feels like all heroes are vanilla.
I will say some newer heroes do have weaknesses. Iceman's thwarting, Nightcrawler's damage, and so on. It's tough because the game is advertised for solo and a handful of characters absolutely suffer there.
@@VillainTheory So your'e saying I should >definitely< buy Iceman and Nightcrawler? ;-) Only half kidding here, of course, your points are fair. What I don't understand is how people play the kind of multiplayer games you guys play --where all players build elite decks on-the-fly. Think about how rare that is. That means everyone has a set, everyone is into deck building, everyone has (larger) card collection to make those decks, and everyone can get together to play. I have two other friends who have a set, they're both remote, we go to a con every year, and that's all the play we can get. Unfortunately, my points here all add points to your thoughts about solo play --but then what is the mainstream way to do multiplayer? Are the two inherently at odds? My solution has been to prebuild all the decks (whole box), and bring it to game night with local friends. This may be where Sentinels of the Multiverse outshines Marvel Champions. No deckbuilding, so only one person needs a set for game night.
I agree, i don't really think this change is new player friendly and this is more about being easier for designers, retailers and making production soace by reducing reprints.
I think its a necessary evil overall, but yeah, i agree that this doesn't really help new players.
That's a good way to put it
I imagine it helps Arkham Horror players more than Champions. AH doesn't feel as easy to jump in anywhere. Champions is setup that you can just grab your favorite heroes and go.
I think the problem Champions has is the high number of hero packs though. Print on demand would be a nice solution for keeping old content in print even if it would cost players more and potentially be a slight decline in quality. But, outside of that I don't think FFG can keep 50+ Marvel Champions products on shelves.
Similarly, I think the consensus that content like Galaxy's Most Wanted, Wrecking Crew, Hulk, Valkyrie, etc. are content to either avoid or buy last doesn't help. I don't see a situation where forever in stock is possible. And, if their solution is to have part of the line be cycled and revised, then that seems like an OK compromise.
Pour one out for Doctor Strange and Cap. Ms. Marvel however... plenty of her to go around.
Cap in particular is pretty sad as he is a fan favorite character
The funny thing is Ms. Marvel is by far my favorite of those heroes to play
As someone with a complete collection, the idea of having to waste my money buying 2nd versions of characters I already own does not interest me at all. We still don't even have Daredevil, Ghostrider, and Moon Knight, and they're talking about wasting time and resources re-designing characters I already own?!
For new players, this is even worse. Now the markup on older stuff is going to explode even more and make the game less accessible.
Completionists won't be satisfied with the "new" version of Captain America, they'll have to buy both. This is just a total lose/lose/lose scenario for everybody. The only winners here are people selling the old stuff on eBay.
Very bad news for the game as a whole.
I think ultimately this is a good thing for MC nobody likes change and nobody wants things to stay the same. I will say it will suck not being able to get dr strange or cap but nothing a little proxy can’t fix.
As an entrenched player, assuming with some optimism that this won't dissuade too many new players leading to a decline (fingers very crossed), my next main concern is how diluted new releases will be due to the addition of old hero reworks (plus reprints of aspect cards). Hopefully the impact is modest, I want to see new characters join the roster, I don't want to buy another captain america instead. Reworked Hulk would be nice though.
Couldn't quite tell from my first watch of the stream, but does this apply to campaign boxes as well? It'd be a bummer to think that new players couldn't grab, say, Sinister Motives, which is one of the most iconic and fun campaign boxes in many player's eyes.
From the perspective of a newbie who recently discovered the game and started watching content: I am of two minds about this.
On one hand, limiting purchase options is certainly disappointing. I was planning to pick up the core box and some wave 1 heroes to get started with the game and have some deck building options out of the gate. The main thing holding me back has been availability of some hero packs, mainly Cap and Strange. Now it feels like I'll have an even harder time getting them and it did put me off getting into the game...
On the other hand, this could be exciting as it might be leading to FFG releasing something like the Arkham revised core box for Marvel Champions. Or just something similar that would make a perfect starting point for a new player. I going to hold out for now and hope that this is indeed what will happen.
I think good thing. I hope they keep the campaigns going though, even if tacked on I think they’re nice to have. New versions of old heroes sounds great. And while the 3 box stories were cool, I’m excited they’ve moved to one shot boxes and bouncing around groups.
The campaign thing was just me throwing my own opinion into the mix, oops. I am 95% sure they will keep doing them!
What could be awesome 2:54 for them to “revise reprint “ old heros like Captain America and Hulk etc is different but same characters like Sam Wilson capt and red hulk ? That could be cool and they could do that with a lot of heros I believe
I would love that! We are getting Shuri Black Panther and have two Spider-Men, so I expect to see it at some point.
I was afraid that this would happen eventually. But what is considered "old content" going out of print? I hope it's just wave 1-4 stuff and not X-men stuff. It would be terrible if one expansion of the trilogy and a whole wave suddendly became unavailable.
They said they considered things from the last 2-3 years to be the "current environment". So if it were fully implemented now, and using the full 3 years as a guideline, it's everything from Sinister Motives to present day. And presumably that means Captain America from Wave 1 to Vision from Mad Titan's Shadow (Wave 4) is now the old, retiring content. It will definitely be difficult for them to phase out Wave 6 (Mutant Genesis) but include Wave 8 (Age of Apocalypse) unless they are content with depriving the remaining X-Men from their toys.
This sucks, MC content will be for assholes on ebay to scalp, old content won't get released so if you take a couple months off the game you're fucked with the good expansions.
I just started playing a year ago and have slowly been building my collection, I still have (had) a long way to go. Hearing I won't be able to complete my collection is really depressing. Cap is a hero I've recently been wanting to get but can't find. Now I know why.
I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Hopefully you can find a second-hand Cap or proxy the cards somehow. And hopefully you end up being able to get a newer, more fun version even - fingers crossed!
Try a different language maybe ? You could simply print the text in English and put it in the sleeve together with the card.
Still waiting and hoping for heroes like daredevill, moonknight and black cat to come out ❤ ....and blade of course 😅
Is there a list of the one going out of print?
Nope! Though really it sounds like everything beyond Mutant Genesis is currently in danger? And no list of all of them that are getting new versions - which I expect to be a lengthy process anyway.
I am a new player and it's frustrating when all recommendations suggest Red Skull or Sinister Motives as a first expansion and they are both not obtainable.
It sounds like they are doing a soft second edition, which I think is fine. It'll be easier (or at least perceived to be) to jump in that way
Let's hope it all works out for the best!
Well Now no one can get "Honorary Avenger" as its only with Cap
Not necessarily, they said certain "key" cards from out-of-print heroes would be reprinted in future hero packs, so it is likely some future hero will come with "Honorary Avenger".
at least till further notice
Disappointed about Capt and Doc Strange being retired, as I just started playing a year ago and I missed out on them. It won't be bad, if they release new ones though, maybe if they are better (like Hulk) or less broken (like Doc Strange).
I think the new versions will probably be great? But it's impossible to say right now, I just have faith in Tony. Crossing my fingers that the wait isn't too long
@@VillainTheory Another concern I have is now I don't know what I should buy. I don't want to buy old packs that would be discontinued, only to be replaced with a newer version, ,which would make me have to buy the same hero twice (potentially). Then again, since they may not be releasing new versions of all discontinued packs, I could end up holding off on getting a hero, have it discontinued, with the expectation of getting a new version, only to find out that they aren't going to release a new version of it. Quite frustrating. I hope they are transparent with their discontinued plans, and give people plenty of time to buy ones they plan on discontinuing, but won't be creating new versions of, but something tells me they won't and things will just go *poof* and people like me will just be out of luck, if we didn't get them.
What I hope they do is to replicate the LOTR and Arkham distribution model. Brazil (which is the target audience of my channel) for example is a huge market with no translated MC due to the single pack distribution model. So many people in the world just don’t have access to this game still.
I’m a new player and the most confusing thing has been the lack of being able to buy captain america and dr strange which everyone recommends. 🤷🏻♂️
The core set pretty much is a campaign story wise if you read the schemes.
Agreed! But there are no campaign mechanics etc. That is what I don't tend to like very much personally
It sounds to me like they needed a way to convince new players to buy new products instead of hunting for old ones. So by saying they will reprint the really popular stuff with new designs then players won’t spend as much time looking for old stuff since a new one will come out sooner or later. And they have less stuff to buy to be caught up to the “current” game
I think that all checks out
What about expansions like sinister motives? I’ve been waiting for a restock
A lot of interesting stuff. Bringing Boggs back to do some work is unexpected, as he's working on a competitive LCG for Earthborne Games.
For me them talking about retiring products sucks for those without it all, but it is pretty normal for CCGs. Too many SKUs makes stocking a problem, and changing the release model for AH has caused a ton of confusion with new players. I suspect they repackaged waves didn't sell well enough so instead they can just remove the old stuff and sell it to us again but better!
I wasn't aware Boggs was working for Earthborne, and that's a shame about AH I loved the newer release model, it's what got me into that game.
The new release model is great, as long as you understand the release models. Lots of players go and buy the old boxes thinking they are getting the new ones only to find out they only got 2 scenarios and are best off swallowing that as a loss if they want to complete cycles. Once old inventory is gone its not a problem but lots of LGS still have old stuff they are trying to sell.
Bogg's new game is called Hubworld: Aidalon. Theres a Gamefound preview page up but no date for the campaign.
I'm very leery about the cycling and the redone heroes. I quite frankly don't want to buy heroes again, and there's the definite possibility that we'll see arguments on whether it's ok/not ok to use the new characters instead of the old ones (or like you say, more/less fun). We'll see how it looks, but I guess now I have to put some extra effort in filling the gaps in my collection (thankfully those are Ms. Marvel and the guardians waves, for the most part).
I think the existence of “What should I buy” forum is their survey. It always show up but that’s not really fault of marvel champions
Well, I only started playing this past year just before Magneto was released, so I suppose I count as a new player, right? I appreciate all of these creators making their buying guides and "how to get started" videos, but honestly, in order to get into Marvel Champions, all you need to do is buy the core box and your favorite hero, whether they're an individual pack or in an expansion box. That's what I did; Core Box, Mutant Genesis (for Colossus), and Thor. I'm all started. From there I can just start buying stuff that interests me. The only reason it might be difficult to "get into" the game is if your favorite hero is out of print, or if you're getting into it purely as a game and not a Marvel fan, so you're only judging cards based off of objective game power and not how cool the character is. So, honestly, I think the idea that new players need to be catered to with this "standard format" idea is kinda bullshit. None of the expansion boxes are so pitifully bad that someone would push you away from them even if your favorite hero is in them (even if your favorite heroes are Groot and Rocket, you should still get Galaxys' Most Wanted even if the villains in that are hard).
In regards to some of the other changes; based on what they focus on, things like wanting to nerf powerful cards or improve weak ones, block off older boxes in favor of balancing around the current sets, a lot of these changes seem to be based around the idea of power level, wanting the cards to be generally balanced in regards to power. If you'll pardon my French, I think that's *fucking stupid* because Marvel Champions is a *co-operative game.* Why does power level matter when all players are working together? There's no Mr. Suitcase to overcome who buys all the cards and thus has all the best decks, because that player is _working alongside you!_ I feel like FFG has been tweaking a lot of things to take away some player power and keep players "under control", trying to take what they think are exploits out of the rules and nerfing interactions like "what happens if you play a card that reveals until you hit a minion and there's no minions left in deck?" (I think the answer should be shuffle up and keep revealing until you hit one, FFG apparently thinks you're supposed to shuffle up and stop revealing and your card just whiffs with no effect, because FFG apparently wants every card that does that and heroes that need minions to activate to be absolutely useless). I don't get why! The only opponent is automated! It won't hurt their feelings if I figure out some powerful interaction! Some opponents are very difficult and I should be able to have every tactic at my disposal to beat them! It _especially_ annoys me as someone who plays solo; it's like FFG is trying to butt into my personal time and tell me how to play with my toys.
I'm a little mixed on the idea of releasing new versions of out of print heroes, but I do think it could be for the best. While it will bother me as a completionist to struggle to get the "classic" versions if I want them specifically, generally heroes that are out of print are out of print because they're old, and old heroes tend to be a little basic because, well, they were made before a lot of the modern mechanics were introduced. It's not that they're out of date; Cap and Strange are still some of the most powerful heroes in the game. But like, as an example, Cable really introduced the idea of player side schemes, so if you want a deck built around player side schemes, you really want to use specifically heroes and cards printed after Cable's introduction, because all cards printed before then operated under the assumption that such a thing didn't exist. So all cards built around finding and clearing player side schemes will be post-Cable. if they reintroduce old heroes with new mechanics, they can have these old characters interact with these new mechanics, and freshen up how they play. A lot of the heroes in the core box feel a little outdated, and it would be nice to have some iconic heroes feel more in line with the current ones. There are just some mechanics they introduced later in the game that these early heroes can never interact with.
I guess the idea of reintroducing old heroes is particularly good for me, a new player who hasn't bought them. But as always, I worry about the established players who now feel like they have to buy these old heroes all over again. If FFG starts refreshing old heroes now, they could theoretically just start doing old heroes forever and making money off of "old content", and I'm mixed on how I feel about that. But it would be so nice if new players could get their hands on such iconic heroes, and potentially even improved versions (hopefully, assuming FFG doesn't feel the need to once again nerf characters in a _co-operative game!_ A new player isn't going to want to feel like their Strange is just worse than someone else's Strange because they started playing earlier!).
re the separate environments announcement: I'm willing to bet that everyone has been playing a game that's been designed as if there are different environments for a while now. Think about it. Are they running a lot of playtests to see how it feels if Valkyrie or Dr Strange's premade decks run through Agents of SHIELD? I doubt it, because there's only so many hours in a day and FFG would rather focus on making sure characters released in the past year feel good in these encounters because those are the ones who are going to sit next to it on a shelf. Everything before a certain point would just be left up to faith in the general sturdiness of the system. Thus, this is less a major shift in policy and more just... admitting how things end up being for structural reasons.
They do have a good number of playtesters to help with testing, though I think you are right. I've heard mixed comments about their testing too. Sometimes they are reluctant to add something to the card pool for balance reasons, then in the next interview they say they balance around the precons and let deckbuilders go wild with crazy combos. And then we have situations like Rocket and Groot being in the box with Galaxy's Most Wanted which I suspect didn't end up as they intended in terms of power/balance anyway.
I buy and play lcg to get away from the "current meta, OOP scalper" environment. The "current vs legacy" and "not reprinting" announcements are horrendous in my opinion.
I'm cautious about boggs coming back. Having a "guest star designer" come in, especially one with history, can lead to things getting greenlit that would otherwise see a lot more gameplay and balance tweaks. I'm not saying it can't be good, but I'm not hyped for it either.
Almost made a sizable investment in this game. Glad I didnt. Maybe I will collect the next round.