How Black Sabbath Changed During the Tony Martin Years.
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- Опубликовано: 27 янв 2023
- Darin and I discuss how Black Sabbath changed during the Tony Martin years, beyond the obvious of a new vocalist the identity and sound of the band also changed.
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I am not a rock historian or a Black Sabbath documentarian. However I have been a Black Sabbath fan since Master Of Reality. A Hard Rock /Metal fan since 1973 and I love every version of BS. Tony Iommi is a genius. The Martin era lacked the label support the other era's had. Still as relevant as any version to this fans ears and heart.
Totally agree, Warner Bros. blew it by not blitzkrieg promoting the fabulous Eternal Idol record.
Have been a huge fan of the Tony Martin era or eras of Sabbath since Eternal Idol came out in '87. Some of my favorite Sabbath tunes and albums were crafted by the Martin-fronted lineups. It certainly deserves to be celebrated and appreciated more. 🤘🤘😈
I know im the odd duck in the room ,but the first Sabbath I ever heard was Tony Martin .
That’s interesting. How do you rate the Martin era now?
@@fdevlin5932 The Eternal Idol ,Tyr and the Headless cross are my 7th 6th and 4th favorite sabbath albums so extremely high then again Forbidden is my lowest so still high but below ronnie and about the same percentalge of likes to dislikes as ozzy (of ozzys 9 albums i like 6 of tonys five i like 4)
Appreciate the comments around passionate fans guys. I don't know anybody personally who has the same passion I do for music, and in particular Black Sabbath. Feels a bit lonely sometimes lol. I enjoy hearing about how yourselves and others get so emotionally invested in it. As you say Darin, there are Sabbath songs that really connect on a deep level, and so it's not surprising that we are hyper-critical and protective with anything Sabbath related. Iommi has confirmed the box set for this year though, I really hope we get some interesting bonus stuff including live material. Just make it a big one, I'll be more than happy to pay for it. Ps. I'm really interested in the psychology behind what attracts certain people to certain types of music, and in particular hard rock/metal. Fascinating topic, but perhaps one for another time.
Thanks Tom. I've been planning on doing a video on that exact topic of "what attracts certain people to metal" I want to bring on a sociologist who has studied this topic. I find it fascinating also.
@@LairoftheAlchemist A sociologist named Deena Weinstein published a book titled "Heavy Metal: A Cultural Sociology" which I believe came out about 30 years ago now. I have a copy I picked up at a Waldenbooks (remember those?) near my job back in the later 1990s. A bit dated now, as she of course only covers and references whatever bands were known or in existence up to about 1991. However, overall there are still many insights and observations about the growth, evolution and history of the art form as well as the "metal mentality" in it that remain applicable across time. Although I think she did publish an updated/edited/revised version later on. There have been some other similar books along the way in addition to hers.
Thiers A Book Titled " Your Brain on Music"... I respect your Appreciation for this subject.. I've wondered the same thing. This Book explains the "neuro science " .
That would be awesome Darin. I feel like in the mainstream, more ‘traditionally’ popular music or classical music is talked about, but I’d love to hear about the psychology of metal too. It can be unfairly maligned, but I believe it’s much deeper than what it is perceived to be.
Cool. Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll check it out
I love Tony Martin era. Great music!
I think that the Martin era stuff is excellent - I hold it just as dear as the Ozzy and Dio eras and I appreciate the diversity in the catalog. Iommi has always been my favorite player and I find it endlessly fascinating how different the songwriting collaborations come out depending on who is fronting the band. And it is the frontman that is the biggest variable there - I used to think maybe it was the drummer or who was playing bass but really the biggest shifts in the sound all coincide with who is on the microphone. For example, you mentioned how Sabbath lost their 'jazz swing" thing in the Dio era - but, look at H&H and who the drummer was. Also look at the time period from Tyr to Dehumanizer to Cross Purposes - it's like Dehumanizer is from a completely different planet compared to the albums it's between. And Cross Purposes DOES have a little bit more of a nod to classic Sabbath sound with Geezer still there, but he was on the Dehumanizer record right before it and him staying didn't prevent the overall sound from by and large shifting back much closer to the other TM albums than what he and Iommi had just put out with RJD. I think that each of those vocalists bring out a very different side of Iommi's playing and songwriting. Iommi's playing and composition on the TM albums is some of the most incredible stuff he has done - it just shows the breadth and depth of his craft and creativity.
Don't forget, Bobby Rondinelli was in the mix too during the Martin years! 🥁🥁🥁
Cross Purposes, yes. Saw them with Bobby. Great player with a lot of personality. Another reason I think Cross Purposes works better for me.
@@darinmccloskey9906 I was invited to see that tour when Motorhead and Morbid Angel were supporting but I was unable to go. Never saw any version of Sabbath live, sadly--the closest I got was seeing Dio 3 times which sure wasn't a bad consolation!
I've always felt that the best way to approach post-Born Again Sabbath is to consider them a hardrock/80s metal band. Through this lens I have got a lot of listening pleasure out of those albums on the last few years. Awesome video, and let's all (Headless) cross out fingers for the Martin era boxset!🤘
I remember one interview with Neil Murray who said that it was not really his imput or Cozy Powell's imput on the riffs written during that time. It was Tony Iommi who wanted to write this kind of more commercial music. I think that they would go for this more heavy and unhinged type of music that Black Sabbath was making earlier, but Iommi wanted the other way. Cheers!
The seventh star album also sounds similar to me. Generic 80’s heavy metal, with the riff master on guitar. Some good songs, some not as good. And they went back to a similar sound on cross purposes, like dehumanizer didn’t even happen haha.
I think on cross purposes that style fit Tony better than if it was written for Ronnie. I really love both albums but they are totally different.
The Black Sabbath record I've listened to the most is Headless Cross. The first time I listened to the album I thought of Whitesnake, Dio and Black Sabbath in a lovely mix. Kind regards from Sweden.
Nice, thanks for sharing.
I was very impressed how much you guys had to say about this era. I absolutely love the Tony Martin era, but I understand your guys' sleights against it. Darin was a fantastic guest! I'm definitely looking forward to watching more of Sabbath Sunday.
Thank you! 😊
Anything in line with Blue Murder, I'm definitely on board with! That first album is incredible!
My 2 favorite Bands
Black Sabbath and
Blue Oyster Cult
No one comes Close
Great Show
They definitely changed, but on Headless Cross and TYR I think it really worked. They basically become satanic Whitesnake on Headless Cross, totally works for me, Iommi's riffs still rule and the record is epic feeling and has a great atmosphere. TYR is almost power metal, definitely epic heavy metal, something different again and I love it for that reason. I actually don't like Cross Purposes because it sounds more conventional Sabbath and I like the Tony Martin stuff sounding like a different band entirely.
Big fan from. Pakstan
Thanks!
Always a great and informative show on my fav band. Keep them coming.
Love me some Sabbath Sunday.Another great one!
Cross Purposes is a phenomenal Black Sabbath album.
Awesome that you like it.
Tony Martin would like a cleaner higher pitched Dio on Mob Rules. No one ever brings it up but if someone combined the Voices of Ronnie James Dio and Glenn Hughes it would be Tony Martin
Great stuff, much needed, well-articulated.
I'm not well versed in this era of Black Sabbath but I believe that one of Tony Iommi's complaints regarding Tony Martin was a lack of charisma or stage presence in a live setting; be that as it may, from what I've heard he's an excellent singer with shades of Ronnie Dio in terms of style; if they do release expanded editions of the Martin albums perhaps they could draw fans into this era of the band by adding bonus tracks of live versions of some Sabbath classics from the more popular lineups
Good point because I've never even heard Martin do any other Sabbath material at all so there's no carryover like there was with Dio.
Anyone who tells you Martin sounds like Dio needs to clean their ears out. If anything his voice is closer to David Coverdale but he's his own voice.
Black Sabbath is owned by Tony Iommi and Ozzy Osborne 50/50 co-owners and no unreleased material will be released unless 3 original members participate in the project.
Is there an App where we can dial-back the echo on the drums and elsewhere? I replayed ‘the eternal idol’ today and those particular production choices of the day, jumped out at me. I am looking forward to re-appraising the Cozy Powell and Neil Murray rhythm section on the forthcoming boxset.
I saw the CrossPurposes tour but don't remember much about the album. I don't think I liked it at the time. I was really into Ozzy and the Dio era so I don't think it grabbed me in the same way. Will have to give it another listen
I love Sabbath. Ozzy, Dio, and Martin. I hate that Martin is not accepted by many. I know Ozzy and Dio's shoes are some big shoes to fill. Iommi is my favorite guitarist of all time.
A good question finding its origins in this discussion would be: are Cozy Powell and Neil Murray the reason Black Sabbath took on this "Whitesnake sound" in the late 80s?
Darin, in the first 6 minutes you nailed it, everything you said about Martin 'Sabbath is how I feel. As far as the White Snake sound, on some of the albums 2 members came from White Snake so that makes sense. One song that did have a definite Dio era vibe is Law Maker, musically it would fit right into Mob Rules (which is a perfect album).
Eternal Idol is top 8 or so for me. No duff all killer. Better than No Rest for the Wicked and Dream Evil. And it’s not even close…Iommi really won the battle of the bad bloods, it’s aged much better than those other 2 albums imho
For sure
I'm a long time Sabbath fan who has been really slow to warm up to the Martin era stuff. Look I do agree, the man does have a great voice but to my ears when its paired up around the overall production enmeshed with those dreadful 80's keyboards it doesn't matter how good he sings because this isn't even sounding like Sabbath anymore anyway. So basically there are no Martin era songs on my Sabbath Playlist but are some on my miscellaneous artists Playlist which means that as of yet I cannot really include the Martin era as a part of "MY" Sabbath. During the Ozzy years I learned to skip school and smoke pot (important). During the Dio and Gillan years I perfected those skills and and engaged in more age appropriate trouble making and shenanigans. During the Martin years I was a working stiff in a factory job. Maybe thats why I'll always love the early stuff much more than the later.
Tony was quick to tell a producer not to mess with his and Geezer's tones on an earlier album. He told him that the two tones together were what made the Sabbath sound. The elephant in the room is that Geezer is only present for one of the Tony Martin era albums and as Darin pointed out, Cross Purposes is more of a Sabbath-sounding album. I also think that Tony Martin was guilty of being overtly satanic to try to be accepted by the fan base as the singer of Sabbath. I honestly don't appreciate those types of thematic predilections and was a little alienated by that in the Martin era. Combine that with the sterile Guitar tones and the lack of Geezer's overdriven Bass and you get a generic sort of Sabbath clone band. Almost a Sabbath wannabe type of situation where you have a band focusing on the perceived "Sabbath tropes" in an effort to sound like them. What you end up with is a cheap imitation of the original. The only thing about this band of Sabbath wannabes that distinguishes them from the rest of the Sabbath-influenced bands out there is that you actually have Tony Iommi himself joined by one of the greatest drummers in rock history and a very talented vocalist who can sing all eras of the band. It probably would have worked if they'd managed to keep Geezer engaged in the band. It must also be noted that Cozy Powell and Tony Iommi were producing those albums themselves and should have had someone there to help guide the projects' sonic landscapes with an even hand. The albums during the Tony Martin era seem to each have some problems with one instrument or another being too high in the mix. Having said all of that, I'm really looking forward to the Tony Martin boxset to see if they correct some of those problems. It would be nice if they dig up some unreleased stuff as well. It's probably too much to ask to have Steven Wilson involved with the project but, I would love to see what he could do with those albums!
Tony Martin had the least "satanic" image of all BS members throughout history
Martin’s lyrics on the Headless Cross album are ridiculous, they should have reigned him in a little
The Shining was like the AOR version of the song Heaven and Hell
I remember when Heaven and Hell came out in 1980, To me that would always be Black Sabbath. I got into the ozzy solo stuff and just couldn't get into anything Sabbath did once Dio left.
People should have purchased the Tony Martin era of the band when they were released & they would not be in the boat that they are. I purchased all of the Tony Martin era of the band when they were released. So i can listen to them when ever i want to.
I like listening to the Martin Sabbath records now and then for a change. What was the name of the tune that had a video with the Star Trek girl dancing around in it?
I like a lot of that stuff. I was a teenager / very early 20s at the time and it felt like I never even knew they existed. I barely heard it. Nobody played it, it wasn’t even in the stores it seemed like. When I finally caught up to it, I thought ok this is pretty good. I don’t think of it as Black Sabbath. I think of it just as the Tony Iommi Band. It was good he kept going. What was he supposed to do?
The Tony Martin era sound was plagued by inconsistency in musicians...i.e., bass, drums all constantly changing. This along with poor producing choices lead to a "different" sound. Not a bad sound, but Sabbath was a band known for consistency and during that time things began to change. Also, Martin wrote most, if not all of the lyrical material between Headless Cross and Cross Purposes (probably Forbidden too, but...). Finally, the boys have always had a weakness for the almighty dollar and it's lead them in some good and bad directions.
The answer is simple, if before Tony Martin Black Sabbath was the the inventor of Heavy Metal and also the best and greatest Heavy Metal band of all times then in the Tony Martin era the band turned out to be the best melodic Heavy Metal band of all times!!! as i said, it is as simple as that, cheers!!!
I enjoy the Martin era albums from time to time, they’re very 80s radio metal but far better than most of the mainstream metal that was popular at the time. If Martin had more charisma and the labels had put more marketing muscle behind them, things might’ve been different
Iommi's playing was more progressive and innovative and Martin's vocals are fantastic. Martin also can sing all the eras songs great.
Tony Martin really had nothing to do with Eternal Idol but sing the songs the way they were written for Ray Gillian and Sabbath had a lot of money spent, I think Martin only had a week to record the vocals for Eternal Idol
Black Sabbath with Ozzy were Stone/Doom Metal,Heavy for the 70s standards,,,,Boogie Woogie Metal(for many middle eight parts of their songs where Ozzy
would clapped his hands with the beats.Bluesy licks,Jazz chords progressions to some extend---So a great mix bags
With Dio it was very good but very Dioish.Like 2 bands meeting.
Born Again was a masterpiece and definitely the beginning of the heaviest era of Sabbath.
With Martin in the band it was definitely Metal but that type of Metal back then wasn't the trend yet.
Iommi's riffs weren't as good but heavier,his solos were faster and more complexed.
All eras are great if you focus on music only and not politics and ass kissing.
Martin era is kinda like Sabbath AOR. And I like both those things.
After Ozzy,Tony especially seemed to relish a sense of freedom from the box an Osbourne fronted Sabbath was. His soloing was magnificent in this time. Almost like flowing water or rain. Acid rain lol. Not all thud thud thumpity thump plodding. Vocals wise Iommi seemed to just want a Dioesque sound. Besides of course the monument that is ( and my favorite Sab lp ) Born Again. Martin gave Tony what he wanted,albeit a bit smoother and less interesting/clever lyrically.Still great tho.Would have loved to have heard Ray Gillan on the lps instead of Martin.
The presence of superior singers such as Tony Martin and Ronnie James Dio made Tony Iommi a better guitar player in my estimation. Listen to songs like Dying for Love and Lonely is the Word and you hear how well crafted and emotive his solos had become. For me these were the golden years of Sabbath. I still listen to the Martin and Dio years of Sabbath more than any others. The thing that I loved about Martin's singing aside from his range, clarity and power was his ability to sing on the consonants. How he did that I don't know but it was quite unique. Outside of Sabbath he was positively brilliant on the first Martin/Guintini Project album.
The problem with the Martin era is that the albums all sound like a bunch of blokes going into the office everyday and doing their job, which I think is kind of what happened and what you guys alluded to. Tony Iommi seems to be a conscientious hard worker, and got up every morning and did his job, which produced some professional sounding and decent albums, but which were fairly generic, a bit Bland Sabbath. As you both suggest, I think they lacked a manager to keep them cohesive and to add some creative spark and direction, like Paul O'Neil did for Savatage for example.
Those 4 albums with Tony Martin (Forbidden is BAD), are so dear to me, the performances are fire, the production sound is exciting, the mix of Heavy Metal and Doom are so tasty! The Dio albums rank on top, and I can't stand the Ozzy era, it just doesnt sound interesting to me.
The Eternal Idol
Headless Cross
Tyr
Cross Purposes
Forbidden
I have a feeling that during the Tony Martin era everything was a bit sub-par in Sabbath: Iommi's riffs and sound were below his average, Tony Martin's a very good singer, but he sings too much like Dio and has zero charisma, the production was more generic and less adventurous, the record label wasn't a major, and overall it feels like the band (and mostly Iommi) wasn't tryin' so hard and was a bit resting on his laurels. Cozy Powell is a monster-drummer (sublime!) but I'm not sure he was a good fit for Sabbath as he definitely didn't swing much especially in the 80's. In a way the "Iommi" albums (solo with Hughes) are much better albums and would be probably a better fit in the Sabbath discography than the Tony Martin ones. As you said, they probably should have been released under another name.
Still, I'm looking forward for a Tony Martin years's boxset.
Cheers.
They sounded like Deep Purple during the Tony Martin years
yeah...or Rainbow.
@@LairoftheAlchemist Absolutely Rainbow Down to Earth , if Dio remained in the band, willing to get a bit more mainstream. They are Heavier than the Joe Lynn Turner era, but less adventurous than the 3 Dio albums. Blue Murder was a perfect comparison, maybe Savatage after Gutter Ballet
No. Thu sounded luke DP in Glen Hughes era.
The Tony Martin era was in the 80's which was more of the issue. Go back & listen to Uriah Heep 80's music falls short. A lot of bands changed there sounds for the 80's which you like or you hate.
Cozy Powell drums is responsible for the production of Headless Cross and Tyr . You'll hear the difference on Eternal idol and Cross Purposes with different producers Ernie C ruined Forbidden!!!
keyboards are way too prominent. the guitar sound is wet. the vocals are too wet. overproduced generally. there's some great material in the martin era. i love all the albums (even forbidden). cross purposes has the best production and some great songs, but doesn't seem to get the attention i think it deserves.
I thought that Black Sabbath became Deep Purple after Dio joined , they became Whitesnake on Seventh Star, and Rainbow after Tony Martin joined
The lineups reflect your point very well. There was a bit of an incestuous relationship between those bands.
I will preface my comment by saying that Tony Martin really is a great vocalist.
However, I have never been able to connect with this era of Sabbath. The lyrics are generic metal lyrics, Iommi's guitar playing (with some exceptions) had a very generic metal sound, and of course the rythm is just different without Geezer and Bill. Not saying it was bad, just for me the Sabbath sound and feel was gone.
I had always wished that they had just changed the name of the band.
As a drummer and Cozy Powell fan, it was strange to me how generic it was with him in there. The drumming felt kind of unremarkable and predictable. The albums didn’t sell anyway so in retrospect you wish they had stripped the production down and gone looser and more raw. I thought Jake E Lee did a fair attempt at that with Badlands. GNR definitely did with AFD.
This is only my opinion. But anything after never say die Is not Black Sabbath. Heaven and hell. Is As close As they could get. But it's far as.
The Tony Martin erra.
Which were fantastic recordings in my opinion was more. A tony Iommi solo effort,the only reason Black Sabbath is on the label is purely management But these recordings be that as it may are part of the BS catalog but there is no comparison to what this Band started as,if Jimmypage hooked up with cozy,jeff,and Tony (martin) did an album should he call it led Zeppelin jmho
BLACK SABBATH is my favourite band of all time & have lived, breathed & supported them for 42 of the 55yrs of being on planet earth, the "classic" OZZY era, the Awesome power metal marque 2 & 3 DIO era, & the short lived GILLAN 'era', Sabbath were going from strength to strength up to that point & l appreciated every second of it, HUGHES eventually followed on the Black Sabbath/lommi solo stint, ALL these vocalists had long pedigrees & credibility & l include OZZY amongst the others because in OZZY's younger days could belt out the vocals with great force & power. Then EVERYTHING changed for me once Tony Martin turned up with that high pitched sqealing, there was no low end grunt that was trademark with earlier line-ups, all the rough edges were knocked off, no "WOW" factor, & no chances were being taken which BLACK SABBATH were renowned for in the past, it was just homogenised "Bon Jovi' style dribble passed off as BLACK SABBATH that DID NOT wash with me at all, other "newbies" to the Sabbath scene might like the Martin era & that's their problem but it was an embarrassing end to the most influential & imaginative band since the Beatles. The only shing light throughout the 90's for me was DEHUMANISER when Ronnie came back & saved Sabbath from oblivion, & now the nightmare continues with the impending Martin boxset reissue which is proof enough there is no justice in this world.
🤣 I'm 55 too bro and I totally relate but I will say that in the last couple of years I've warmed up a little bit to some of the Martin years stuff. But it can never live up to the Ozzy-Dio-Gillan material to me.
I can’t wait for the Tony Martin boxset. I am not up in arms about this era, I almost view these albums as Iommi solo projects. Or Iommi/Butler.
I have a nice double disc reissue of Eternal Idol. But my copies of Headless Cross and Tyr are simple classic rock reissues, and I don’t even own Cross Purposes and Forbidden, very difficult to get hold of these days. I am looking forward to the set and availability of these albums.
Y’all smoking meth. Headless Cross is the very best BS album.
Agree
Sabbath diehard since 1976 couldn’t listen to Martin era. So generic. So bland. The Sabbath touch was missing. I’ve tried it and didn’t like it. Rather listen to a Totally different band.