Question for you guys. There’s a small voice of the community, as I’m sure y’all are aware, that insists on poo-pooing TOW before it ever releases. One of the points this contingent keeps harping on are the “legacy” factions. They insist that these factions are being discarded, forgotten, and ultimately dumped by GW. Specifically though I’ve heard a few people chime in that players of these factions are going to be disappointed because GW is going to say that these factions aren’t allowable in tournaments or events. I have no idea why this would be the case but I’m not a long time GW player so maybe this is true? I’d like your opinion on this, specifically whether or not you guys believe GW will say those non-core factions aren’t allowed at events. Thanks for the shows, I look forward to them every week!
While it remains to be seen what we've heard is this: All armies (including the RenegadeTM factions) were designed and playtested together. We haven't seen yet specifically how it'll go, but the cafe rumours and previous experience says that the Core factions will release either in a compilation book or books, and then the non-core factions will come along as PDFs. Don't know the timing beyond that. So what I think we can assume about the non-core factions is this: They won't get whatever extra support comes for Old World core factions - new minis made for old world, and Army Books if those are a thing. HOWEVER - Ironically the non-core factions could be viewed differently as "Core AoS factions" lol. From that viewpoint you could see them as potentially BETTER supported than the core ones. They will continue to get full range refreshes (Soulblight Gravelords, Seraphon, Slaves to Darkness) and will also probably be maintained at better stock levels too if I had to guess. Plus - why else would base sizes be going up if not to accomodate the larger new sculpts better (even if that's not OFFICIALLY a sanctioned idea.) For example I expect Warriors of Chaos to be released in tOW with the old kits and models. But if I was starting a new army from scratch you better believe I'd be raiding every sexy new Slaves to Darkness sculpt I could make fit for the setting. Long run I expect this game to be popular and played widely. I'd expect that future editions will add the non-core factions in time, along with tOW specific ones like Cathay and Kislev (and who knows what else in good time.) Finally - whether they'll be supported at tournaments is a question for the community not GW. A tiny fraction of events will be "official" and that can be regarded its own format. For us - we'll be releasing a tournament packet that will be inclusive of any rules they publish, pdf or otherwise, model company agnostic (whether that's AoS models, tOW models, or 3rd party models) and supported with FAQs / Errata until official answers are provided from on high (which I expect to happen with regularity, if not a blistering pace) So that's my take! - Val
Hello, Gents! I can offer a bit of commentary as a completely inexperienced player. I just got started with Warhammer this summer - first 40K, then Warcry and Horus Heresy snowballed after that. I was curious about the Old World rumors swirling about, but I didn’t pay much attention until I happed to pick up an old copy of the August 2013 White Dwarf issue. Within, I found a great battle report showcasing Tomb Kings vs. Seraphon, as well as a exhibit of Duncan Rhodes’ beautiful Brettonian army. Those old-yet-quirky models caught my attention, and now that we’ve had a deluge of announcements and rules since then, I can safely say that the Old World is my most anticipated upcoming Warhammer release! I love how this game is fundamentally different from modern Warhammer in both mechanics and tone, and your awesome content has only increased my excitement! Thanks for the awesome shows, and I look forward to hearing more from y’all next week!
Your discussion about big units made me think of how they were handled in WAB. Units that were flanked or charged in the rear by a big enough unit (5 models) could not give ground in good order, but just fled if they failed a break test. The same thing with the Stubborn trait where if the unit failed a break test they would usually just give ground, but nope that unit would just flee if they were flanked. With a lot of the WAB movement rules coming over to TOW, I wonder if that one is in because that could certainly help control giant unit blocks. Especially in TOW with units like Pegasus Knights or Outriders that can outmaneuver slower units to get a key flank/rear charge off at critical times. Just a hope of mine because I'd hate to have blocks of near impossible to break units just pushing back and forth for 5 turns.
Hah - I just commented this on another comment. I really hope that this is the case, or at least, some form of this. Much of steadfast's dominance in 8th ed fantasy was simply the fact that they explicitly allowed disrupted units to, for whatever reason, retain steadfast. That simple change would have altered the meta of 8th significantly.
Listening/watching from South Africa while I apply touchups to my 3rd edition WFB Orc army - getting ready to play the Blood Bath at Orcs Drift campaign after Christmas. Getting super excited for the release of the Old World.
Great stuff guys. Good travelling back from work chat. Be doing something I've always wanted to do. Collecting one of every daemon unit! All 4 gods at least one of each unit. Mix and match Daemons of Chaos funtime. Got me some new 30mm bases and done 20 daemonettes and 3 fiends built already! Got my ticket for March!
With regard to using fewer models in a tray than are in the unit, that’s what unit fillers are for. I don’t know why this was less prevalent in 8th, but in editions past, army supplements would actually have hobbying guides on how to create dioramas that use large bases to fill out the middle of the unit. All that matters is you have enough models in the back rank(s) to replace the filler base when it would be time to pull it. This way you don’t have to buy as many models and it’s aesthetically pleasing to look at.
Right?? So a lot of what I think is true about the "stigma" of unit fillers comes from reading through a lot of old forums and such... which is probably a bad way to judge any group of people. But it felt like in many circles, unit fillers were frowned upon. I mean I can also remember getting into 40k around that time and airbrushes were considered controversial because they were a way to "cheat" at painting. So yeah. There were some really terrible takes that you don't see as much anymore. Anyway - unit fillers I think are a really cool way to make warhammer units more practical and cooler looking. All for them.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld anybody who complains about unit fillers is trying to bully newer players who don’t realize they are both gw approved and grognard approved. Back when a unit of 50 goblin spearmen was literally 50 identically posed goblins it was the easiest way to add visual spice to the table, we had to break up the hobby monotony somehow.
Well I can tell you that a foundation of living #squarebassed will inlude unit fillers. I can't wait to craft a manifesto about all of this (assuming it's not explicitly already addressed by JTY)
@@SquareBasedOldWorld It might be archived somewhere, but GW used to have a "warrior's code" for use of fillers in competitive games on their website. The "code" was that no more than 20% of a unit could be based as filler. I don't personally know anyone who limited themselves to that, but I think it's useful to point to and say that even the most restrictive competitive rules on fillers allows them.
When I was younger and just started, we used to just have a front row, and use dice to represent the back rows. So an infantry unit of 20 had 5 in front, and a d20 with 15 wounds on it. So a unit of ten could be two units of 20.
Great show again - thanks! Thinking of converting my 5th ed Bret army to Old World now that it´s confirmed there´ll be no new grunt knights. But I guess I have to support the game by buying an army... TK it is!
Totally with Val on the ‘big unit’ concerns, I’ve been expecting to find out what the mitigation to the crazy big unkillable ones might be. I’m also assuming there will be something, but I’m not sure what it could be right now, it’s certainly not something obvious.
I said in my comment to the short that it is, as you also said, 'engaging'. Also I was meaning to say that I was engaging with the content, mostly to feed the algorythm w/e man
@@SquareBasedOldWorld the kit I've wanted forever, but didn't get when playing back in 3rd/4th cause you couldn't use special characters really, and now because it's so unbelievably expensive is High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer
Cool thing about Thorgrim is his origin story actually takes place during the Great War Against Chaos... so while we won't have his final form (though could definitely see lots of made to orders covering old SCs) I'll bet we see a beardling version of Thorgrim at some point - Val
Great video guys, always fun to see this show, totally agree with Val that we really haven't seen any mitigating factors for big blocks of infantry. However I disagree that Grail Knights look overcosted, they seem insane, AP is rarer than ever and with a return to only one rank of shooting (except volley fire which will probably be constrained to non AP weapons) means that the loss of a point of armour isn't that big a deal, especially since the extra Toughness makes up for it. But what I really think makes them insane is their "first charge" rule, the ability to strip a unit of its rank bonus used to be a 100pt magic banner it's that powerful an ability, this will be even easier to get off with countercharge. Also Grailvow is great and the ability to take 100pt banners (something we never saw on a unit in 8th) might be crazy. Love how the new special rules are laid out though, "nested" rules where rules were inherent to unit types or frenzied units being ItP for example always bugged me and slowed down the game as you had to check multiple pages for one clarification.
Yeah there's a ton of cool things that could make Grail Knights extra bananas ... but the only thing that matters is stuff to juice their resiliance. Like we're talking about 10 wounds in a big unit. That's probably around 500 points once all the trimmings are applied. 10 wounds means needing to force 30 saves to kill them with 0 AP. That doesn't not seem like a very high bar in shooting or combat. I'm going to love when they're unstoppable death machines and I just get repeatedly dummied by them. Again - we don't know enough to truly judge... I just know what bad ass elite cav does in 8th ed and they have a better armour save : )
@@SquareBasedOldWorld assuming BS3; a bow has a 1/27 chance to killing a grail knight, a crossbow has 1/18 and a handgun has 1/12, with the fact that units now only fire in one rank I can't see Grail knights losing models to any ranged unit except a lucky rolling 10 wide unit of handgunners. We don't have enough details to make such an analysis about close combat but now that you dont get additional AP for strength i feel that more than makes up for Grail Knights losing a point of armour. Generally it seems like tOW is going to be less killy than 8th edition so just having bodies on the ground to absorb losses may be less important. Unless of course we don't see anything to reduce the viability of big infantry blobs in which case yeah Grail knights are just going to get bogged down.
Yes, the 'first charge' thing sounds very powerful. Makes them very likely to win that first round of combat by a fair margin. I get that their opponents may well then 'fall back in good order' (though some will break fully), but my understanding is that the knights will then count as charging again in the next round of combat (assuming they choose to follow up) so get to keep their lance bonusses. It may well be that their opponents haven't got many ranks left after that...
yeah hey - in the fullness of time I'm sure I will be fed many grail knights while some Bretonnian try hard talks down to me like a peasant and crushes me.
Yep they're 25mm as seen in the "Old World Development Diary - The More Things Change, the More they Stay the Same… " article. www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/d5ZkYUTjDTqAzxxB.jpg www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/AtmAJrqv2zD9S1ja.jpg
@@SquareBasedOldWorld it was up to your usual high standard . I do think that with the bigger base size a unit of 10 wide is really going to suffer from wheeling as there is no free pivot, just some rough calculations has them using 4" to wheel 24~ degrees .
amazing content per usual! I’m so excited to get into old world but have no idea where to begin with collecting. hoping elves or dwarves are supported factions!
High Elves Wood Elves and Dwarves are all one of the main supported factions. Dark Elves will still get rules and have an extensive range of miniatures still available in AOS. You'll be fine whichever one you pick.
You're in luck! Those are "core" factions so you'll likely see their kits get relaunched at some point. We still don't know how things are going to work from the beginning. It's one of the unanswered questions. Though they did promise that the Almanacks would explore the future of the game at some point. So hopefully we hear about how the launch will go before the new year.
Superb show - my son and I love to watch your videos. We had our Christmas WFB 6th Edition farewell battle (TKs v Chaos Dwarf) it was a draw which was fitting. But! have you thought about offering printing services (or recommending) where 'Rogue' army players can go to have the PDF books actually printed into books?
😀I started my boy at 7 with the remake of HeroQuest and our local club (Dice Saloon Brighton) runs a superb kids club to bring kids into AOS & 40K. But the horror about rebasing Empire, Wood Elves, High Elves and Chaos Dwarves! But REALLY wish we could get tickets to the GT (we are on holiday) so will miss it - but the next one! will take him to play at the next one. @@SquareBasedOldWorld
What I think that counters the argument of that big block being the thing is that small blocks also get the "steadfast". You also can't fall back in good order the whole game because game table ends at some point and the catcher gets the charge bonuses if you happen to fall back little. And bigger block likely can't find a gap to stop in, so they might run off the table easily. Or if they fall behind own lines, it's then now hard to charge because your unit is too wide.
Been absolutely binging this playlist while the old world hype builds. I'm even more excited for the Big Teal Book than I thought I was.. If you do end up doing the butt shorts; use the butt end of the mount models :P Ngl, I'd love to see more Square BASED vibes showing up in my instagram and shorts feed, the vibes are immaculate
In 10E 40K actually added points-based enhancements (Traits and Relics combined into a single category) back in, and they're often pretty model-defining! Hopefully that means we see something like it in AoS 4e.
From the 23rd minute, new/old customer focus: I'd say GW would be dumb (but yeah, okay, they usually go that route) to ignore the Total War crowd that has developed as an entirely new fanbase for the World of Legend(TM). You might have seen this, maybe not, but when Baldur's Gate 3 finally released, Wizards of the Coast/official D&D/DnDBeyond also released a wave of videos all geared towards people who had never played tabletop D&D but played BG3. For all their faults, which are many, they at least recognized the potential new audience/customer base.
They didnt release any modesl for Vermintide when it came out with teh ubersreik 5 so dont get your hopes up with GW. Same with books, many characters that are loved have no models
There are a lot of no-brainer things like this that in fact make one realize how much we take brains for granted. I don't know why a company of this scale wouldn't do stuff like this. But they dont'. Routinely. I've sometimes chaulked it up to snobbery almost? Like it's gauche to try hard? There is certainly an aloof quality to their business practices. HOWEVER The flipside is that a competently run company would immediately realise how insane being a miniatures based tabletop company with a brick and mortar retail chain and paper publishing arm is in 2023 and nuke everything we love. I don't think the thing we like exists if GW didn't have its head up its bum most of the time.
This show has been amazing for explaining how it's all going to work. As a kid I never got into fantasy because all my friends played 40k, by the time I had the inclination to try it they destroyed the game and I couldn't find anyone to play with. I'm super excited to try out my ogres in this new game and I was super tempted to get a ticket to your event but I think i will wait until the next one.
I'm glad you brought up the issue of how unkillable units seem due to the psuedo-Steadfast that is Fall Back in Good Order (FBiGO). My only hope is that we are missing a major mechanic, for example: Units that run out of space to complete their FBiGO due to the board edge, impassable terrain, enemy units, or friendly units lose various amounts of additional wounds (perhaps equal to the unit strength of what the FBiGO tried to move through). I would imagine this would also trigger when a unit gets a FBiGO while they are attacked from different frontages. This way clever maneauvres can make FBiGO a decisive result!
Yes - others have speculated and I have too that hopefully there are missing mechanics that prevent or limit FBIGO (acronymn coined for all eternity) - Val.
@SquareBasedOldWorld I guess I hope the onus is on the player "planning" to lose combat to ensure their FBiGO is safe. They should have to give this tarpit unit space away from the board edge, protect its flanks, etc. or it needs to pass the *modified* check or be deleted (like the good old days of 6th edition). As opposed to "I took 100 halberdiers and they take 100 wounds to kill unless I fail my rerollable unmodified check" like 8th edition.
(Well I thought I’d already commented but now I can’t see it 🤔) Anyway, I love the Grail Knight models 😂 I don’t think the drop to a 3+ will be as much a nerf as potentially thought, with the increase to toughness four and the separation of strength and ap I think they’ll be about as survivable as they were. Now arguably they were already too squishy anyway! As ever, thanks for the shoutout! We would love to come to SBGT2! We’ve slid into Val’s DM’s (a terrifying place to be!) to check if there’s any tickets left as I imagine they’ll be going fast!
Hey guys! Super excited for the game and loving all the videos. The amount of time ive spent staring at the artwork in my 6th ed core book and Bret book is madness 😂. Really hoping we see more of that style. I dont mind the models being old as it takes me back to being a yound lad stood in GW with those hefty blister packs 😅. Hopefully they will get updated eventually...
eh by's. good friggen work. I am really loving this TOW stuff. I am beyond stoked for this. I am so cautiously optimistic about it all. I supported 6-8e hard, all the way to the end times and I just couldn't get into AOS, also fell out of love for 40k once they dropped the charts and USR. Been through a lot the last few years myself, so I respect the changes, I just couldn't get into it anymore, and have felt guilty about it , as effed as that seems. Hopefully this brings me back to the community, looking forward to the nostalgia/dopamine if nothing else. Sub+ like from me for this video. Cheers to Sudz, love rogues content too.
Part of the issue with points like Grail Knights is it only makes sense in the context of what a game should be. The points cost for any particular unit would be presumably different in a world where 1000 points is the norm vs 3000
Grail knights have 2 wounds. They already said mounts confer one extra wound on the model (may obviously be more for larger mounts like dragons, no idea there).
Naw they don't. not on the profile they revealed anyway. Remember the warcom writers don't actually know what they're talking about. SOME mounts confer extra wounds, like we saw with - the unicorn maybe?
I think the big problem with big blocks of wide infantry is that because the wheel counts in the charge just by being to one side of them, they will not be able to charge. No mobility.
This is a common counterpoint and I really don't think it's as big of a balancing factor as many would think. A battleline of wide frontage units don't really need to be able to wheel much, they just go straight, or just stand there being big. Assuming this game is centred on kill points, just being hard to kill is a form of offense.
I really am so excited by the black and white (or sepia and less sepia) art. It’s so much more evocative and engaging than the AoS low-detail pastel watercolor art style. 90s whfb art was more high contrast and poppy. I think they were often BIG oil canvas paintings that were shrunk down for the books etc
RE infantry blocks vs cav. The article said “If their First Charge of the game makes contact, the target unit loses its rank bonus until the next round of combat.” If you add the whatever rank bonus of Lance formation will be a big infantry unit could be in a lot of trouble if charged first. I’m hopeful as others have said that we’ll see enough contingencies to mitigate the steadfast horde issues of 8th. Really enjoying the show. Keep it up. Thanks
Sure - until that unit is able to "fall back in good order" by passing an unmodified LD check. There's obviously lots that can impact that situation (perhaps a unit with a flank or rear charge cannot fall back in good order) - but we don't know yet. As it stands it is harder on average to chase down a unit you've defeated in combat.
Have you guys discovered New Recruit? It's used for 9th Age and I'm hoping he updates it for Old World. It's amazing, you don't need any rulebooks as you can select the units rules and it shows you. 🤞
Be mindful that New recruit is like Battlescribe. The information is handled by people and at times there can be mistakes. It's a great tool but double checking your books is still important.
One thing about big units being a problem, if units arent steadfast and fail against their unmodified ld then at least you get to recharge them. Most big units tended to have less than brilliant ld. Hopefully you cant use generals ld if theyre not in the unit and bsb doesnt give rerolls which should mean you can constantly beat units in combat and push them back and get fresh charges especially with cav. First round was always good. Steadfast then meant the second round was a bust and thats where you lost. Keeping the charge bonus would mean you kept winning
Disappointed there was no coverage on how the “world of legend” black library books were absolutely not old world… not even sure what was the world of legend books. Here’s to hoping for new old world novels 🤞🏻. You guys rock!
Well, the "Lords of the Lance" book inadvertently leaked by a French retailer was clearly intended to be revealed at the Black Library previews. It's a mystery why they didn't. Maybe a last minute delay to change heraldry on cover?
Yeah was gonna say - world of legend is deffo regarding the broader fantasy world now ( they used that language in the almanack in the final paragraph) However like black library it seems we just forgot to talk about it
Black knights, Orc boar boyz, blood knights, Empire knights, Cold one Knights (Dark Elf and Lizards), all Bret knights (not yeoman) I think will be 30x60 for sure.
When Val said the "message the Warhammer crew as soon as you get up..." Damn, I have felt that. My older likes to make fun of me, saying "I am Marko, and (AoS) figurines are my soul!"
I was really hoping they'd have unit cards/stats that showed the meaning of their special rules and not just the rule name. It's gonna be a challenge to keep track of all those.
Although I speculated a bit about the downside of separating the USRs from unit definitions (like monsters and stomp) ... I will say a lot of my brain cramps came from finding special rules nestled into other special rules. However this is the kind of stuff that will get easier with repetition and that can be made a bit less difficult with good ol game aids... digital or paper.
Thanks for the great videos. You are the only ones doing anything this indepth I think. Not sure if I am right about something. Its been a while since I played with square bases, but..... Are the grail knights in the picture used not on the old cavalry bases? Would this not suggest, as GW have not bothered redoing some grail knights for the promos that something new, and so far unrevealed, might be on the way?
Hi Val. Yet another RUclips video has been produced and you still have not claimed your square throne. Light a candle in the background of your camera and the RUclips army will rise up and conquer the Honest Wargamer studios and dethrone the tyrant Rob. We will exile him to the Age of Sigmar circle twitch chat realm in the name of house Heffelfinger!!!!!!
On the big units I suppose one question is why be so big if you don't need to be big to get something like steadfast? Obviously it will take longer to destroy a bigger unit if it doesn't ever break, but if it does you lose more than if a smaller unit breaks or is destroyed. And you could have two or three smaller units rather than one big one, each of which could be 'steadfast' in turn. There does seem to be a tendency for this to be discussed as though no unit is ever going to fail a test on its natural leadership when it has to be the case that some types of unit are really going to fail them pretty regularly. Presumably generals and BSBs will have a say in that though in low leadership armies some units will still break even when in range which they won't all be anyway. It maybe gives more reason than before to go after the opponent's general or BSB (I realise there could be big downsides to that), not sure yet.
I think big units are just a natural reaction to kill points that were all or nothing. And if you had to bring a lot of easily killed infantry - it was better to have them huddled together to maybe stick it out longer. Stacking buffs, etc. So I dunno, we'll see. I guess my main point is I don't explicitly see the end of big bricks anywhere. That doesn't mean that's where the meta will wind up, but I just don't see an over correction to make them unusable.
I believe that flanking and rear attacks should prevent units from falling back in good order. I don’t see how it can't work. Let's say I successfully execute a rear charge against a large unit of 40 dwarfs. After killing nine of them and winning decisively on combat resolution, they roll under 9. All that happens is they flee 1d6 inches, automatically rally and reform, and are then ready to receive the charge of their pursuer or to hit back in the next turn. Now, I have lost the advantage of my hard-earned flank and rear charge, rendering it totally pointless.....
I have also been preaching for years that heroes in AoS should have options and special wargear for points for things, make heroes custom again. In Warhammer I don't recall anyone ever playing named characters, custom ones were always far better. Named were there for narrative, but not meant to be OP or always taken. Bring back that +1 attack and other generic magic/ artifact weapons and then specific ones in each book! Sometimes basic things are good, other times it is fun just to take thematic things or silly things. To Val's point about custom kits. I honestly thought that in AoS a quick way to upgrade the Freeguild would have been to scrap the FG Guard or empire troop and provide an upgrade sprue to sell separately or include in the Greatsword box with those weapon options. Doing this scraps the janky looking troop unit (with missing shoes, tiny hands, and no eyes) and still allows for weapon options to work with a better modular kit, since the GS unit is basically armored the same (just more shoes). This would be similar to how the Imperial guard upgrade kit works and could been a massive improvement to the Freeguild line (before the recent update) and to the ToW Empire range.
Holy shit. You just blew my mind re: greatswords kitbash! WTF. How have I never seen this done before? I will admit that I'm very much looking forward to making a Marienburg army specific for Old World (One of the Three Emperors baby! Emperess actually, I think?) ... and this could be a super cool idea to base the infantry on. My heart breaks that the landship will not make narrative sense in the game, but oh well. LAND SHIP IS LIFE.
Also re: special characters... in 8th this was largely true, but also there were some absolute BANGER special characters in just about every faction. The majority were definitely junk however.
Commenting way before I've finished watching as always but I must say, I wouldn't be *opposed* to some sxandalous beefcake and cheesecake in the background.
You guys are saying that the knights might be T4 because they are mounted, but as far as I can see the damsel / prophetess on a pegasus will only be T3.
Assertion is harsh... I would prefer to hedge any of my free associated thoughts as "musings"... unless I'm right. In this case - definitely musings. - Val
Hey guys. I have a question. What’s the best way to effectively evaluate the effectiveness of any given unit? This is something I can’t wrap my head around in any way. It’s something I think AoS was much better at with new players by giving the units a unique rule it kinda helps define a roll and effectiveness of a unit. But how do you do it FB/HH/OW? Do you find the average stat line for the game and compare to that per point? Test the health by having an average unit swing at them? This mixed with the ability to add any number of models to a unit means surely there’s an effective unit size but how do you guys do it? Might make a useful teaching vid for us new guys
And this is how you wind up going to bed talking to your warhammer friends and waking up talking to your warhammer friends. I can guarantee we'll definitely talk to this point a lot as soon as the crunch is revealed to us.
I’m sure one of the older articles said that TOW was aimed more at a returning player base than new players but listening to Rob has me now doubting myself/my own sanity! (Doesn’t take much 😂) And for clarity, parry saves were also only for unmounted models.
It doesn't matter what it's marketed as or what they think it is - there are far more people out here in these streets that engaged with Warhammer Fantasy via video games and other media than ever did on the tabletop. So those people (along with the nostalgia folks) are gonna be coming to play this game. ultimately the game is played by the people who show up, not who GW thinks will show up. Rob and I think they're wrong and underestimating the power of the setting and the IP. But hey - as long as people play. We're happy.
Question! For the squarebased GT….obviously we won’t know until the game is launched how things will work for tournaments where the non-core factions are concerned, however, without all the informatIon yet do you currently plan to allow non-core factions or is that yet to be confirmed? Am talkin’ bout’ vampire counts, dark elves etc…?
Just stumbled upon this channel earlier today and been watching some of your videos. My only real gripe is how long you guys chit chat before ever getting to the topic of the video. One video might be 15-20 mins, this one looks to be about 30 mins. now im instinctively skipping through the first chunk of the videos to get past the irrelevent stuff. Like chit chatting is cool, but may also be cool to have a shorter video where the meat is being addressed and the fat is cut, so to speak. ;). Would make it easier for us new viewers to get into it more. Just a opinion. Feel free to ignore it :P. I am stoked for this game and they better not do to the legacy armies like they did in sigmar, where they do the "oh yeah sure its not part of the narrative but if you have the models we have rules for them! Then as the game gets popular they sneak into the back and behead all the legacy rules without saying anything. Vampire counts/undead and bretonnia are prob my favorite factions in all of fantasy. and it bothers me i feel forced to play discount classic undead tomb kings ;P. Which I did print a hefty large bag chock full of skeleton spearmen and undead archers haha.
The chit chat as you say is part of the show. Yes we read the articles and discuss but there are already many channels that will read things to you. You can even read them yourself.
Nah. 25s. There's pics of basic gobbos. I am also fairly certain that they said something along the lines of "all 20mm bases will move to 25s" ... but that could be a hallucenation
I don't think you're THAT crazy in an Old World / Fantasy context. Properly scaled horses are going to be a real challenge to integrate into Old World because the scale difference is so jarring. The odd thing is that the new Blood Knights actually kinda fit lenght and width wise... it's height that makes them look like they're in an entirely different scale. I think you kind of see this already with the new resin Bretonian bsb model. That horse looks to my eyes to be properly scaled and I'll bet it makes any unit mates along side it look ridiculous. Also 25?? Did you cash out before the dotcom crash or something? - Val
Yeah family requirements before fun events but as the TOW train has no breaks we should have plenty of chances in the future for great old world hobby and events!!
Big units yes, but follow up charges means cav will hit, follow, hit with bonuses, hit follow, hit follow and you will push even dwarfs either off the board or kill them all.. 3 or 4 hit follow and those 9 dead dwarfs become 36 and even if you had 50 you are fucked. We had overrun charges in 7th edition and they kept going until a unit was lost or stopped by a successful breaktest only giving grownd rather than falling back. BTW I love big unit meta, more than MSU, and you can always hit back with 20-30 cav in a single hit.
Thanks for the video. The old World FB Group is like the Moy Eisley Cantina. So many viel people in there..and it looks like that most of them are just there to complain about everything GW related and when they talk about ToW..its to have a reason to shit on GW.
Question for you guys. There’s a small voice of the community, as I’m sure y’all are aware, that insists on poo-pooing TOW before it ever releases. One of the points this contingent keeps harping on are the “legacy” factions. They insist that these factions are being discarded, forgotten, and ultimately dumped by GW. Specifically though I’ve heard a few people chime in that players of these factions are going to be disappointed because GW is going to say that these factions aren’t allowable in tournaments or events. I have no idea why this would be the case but I’m not a long time GW player so maybe this is true? I’d like your opinion on this, specifically whether or not you guys believe GW will say those non-core factions aren’t allowed at events. Thanks for the shows, I look forward to them every week!
While it remains to be seen what we've heard is this: All armies (including the RenegadeTM factions) were designed and playtested together. We haven't seen yet specifically how it'll go, but the cafe rumours and previous experience says that the Core factions will release either in a compilation book or books, and then the non-core factions will come along as PDFs. Don't know the timing beyond that.
So what I think we can assume about the non-core factions is this: They won't get whatever extra support comes for Old World core factions - new minis made for old world, and Army Books if those are a thing.
HOWEVER - Ironically the non-core factions could be viewed differently as "Core AoS factions" lol. From that viewpoint you could see them as potentially BETTER supported than the core ones. They will continue to get full range refreshes (Soulblight Gravelords, Seraphon, Slaves to Darkness) and will also probably be maintained at better stock levels too if I had to guess. Plus - why else would base sizes be going up if not to accomodate the larger new sculpts better (even if that's not OFFICIALLY a sanctioned idea.) For example I expect Warriors of Chaos to be released in tOW with the old kits and models. But if I was starting a new army from scratch you better believe I'd be raiding every sexy new Slaves to Darkness sculpt I could make fit for the setting.
Long run I expect this game to be popular and played widely. I'd expect that future editions will add the non-core factions in time, along with tOW specific ones like Cathay and Kislev (and who knows what else in good time.)
Finally - whether they'll be supported at tournaments is a question for the community not GW. A tiny fraction of events will be "official" and that can be regarded its own format. For us - we'll be releasing a tournament packet that will be inclusive of any rules they publish, pdf or otherwise, model company agnostic (whether that's AoS models, tOW models, or 3rd party models) and supported with FAQs / Errata until official answers are provided from on high (which I expect to happen with regularity, if not a blistering pace)
So that's my take! - Val
That’s a (square) based answer thanks Val! Sign us up
This show is the Epitome of great coverage for the Old World previews.
EP I TOME YA KNOW
@@SquareBasedOldWorld pronouncing words strangely never hurt Matt Berry’s career! I see what your up to Rob. Toast of Warhammer.
Epi Tomb Kings
Hello, Gents! I can offer a bit of commentary as a completely inexperienced player. I just got started with Warhammer this summer - first 40K, then Warcry and Horus Heresy snowballed after that. I was curious about the Old World rumors swirling about, but I didn’t pay much attention until I happed to pick up an old copy of the August 2013 White Dwarf issue. Within, I found a great battle report showcasing Tomb Kings vs. Seraphon, as well as a exhibit of Duncan Rhodes’ beautiful Brettonian army. Those old-yet-quirky models caught my attention, and now that we’ve had a deluge of announcements and rules since then, I can safely say that the Old World is my most anticipated upcoming Warhammer release! I love how this game is fundamentally different from modern Warhammer in both mechanics and tone, and your awesome content has only increased my excitement!
Thanks for the awesome shows, and I look forward to hearing more from y’all next week!
Val's anecdote about whishing your warhammer friends goodnight and good morning is the short for this episode. #relatablecontent
Yeah I'll get on that.
The point about magic items is so right. I cant tell you how much time I spent modelling brass orbs, doom rockets etc. for all my armies.
Literally never occurred to me but hey - go for it - Val
I'm watching the shorts as hard as I can dudes.
You got this hahaha
Your discussion about big units made me think of how they were handled in WAB. Units that were flanked or charged in the rear by a big enough unit (5 models) could not give ground in good order, but just fled if they failed a break test. The same thing with the Stubborn trait where if the unit failed a break test they would usually just give ground, but nope that unit would just flee if they were flanked. With a lot of the WAB movement rules coming over to TOW, I wonder if that one is in because that could certainly help control giant unit blocks. Especially in TOW with units like Pegasus Knights or Outriders that can outmaneuver slower units to get a key flank/rear charge off at critical times. Just a hope of mine because I'd hate to have blocks of near impossible to break units just pushing back and forth for 5 turns.
Hah - I just commented this on another comment. I really hope that this is the case, or at least, some form of this. Much of steadfast's dominance in 8th ed fantasy was simply the fact that they explicitly allowed disrupted units to, for whatever reason, retain steadfast. That simple change would have altered the meta of 8th significantly.
Listening while batch painting 60 skink skirmishes. I don’t know I have so many. Thank you all for making a great show
Listening/watching from South Africa while I apply touchups to my 3rd edition WFB Orc army - getting ready to play the Blood Bath at Orcs Drift campaign after Christmas. Getting super excited for the release of the Old World.
Great stuff guys. Good travelling back from work chat. Be doing something I've always wanted to do. Collecting one of every daemon unit! All 4 gods at least one of each unit. Mix and match Daemons of Chaos funtime. Got me some new 30mm bases and done 20 daemonettes and 3 fiends built already! Got my ticket for March!
As the owner of a very complete Daemon collection.... This is a life goal worth chasing.
I love old school list building! :)
A paper and pen person are ya?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Maybe lol
Super excited for TOW but every time I see those grail knights I do question myself! Great vid as usual :)
don't let the derp get you down.
25:00 9 core factions, 16 overall at launch.
26:30 How often do _you_ think about the Old World Empire?
16 FACTIONS ... just seems so quaint y'know? I feel like we're gonna have a reallll good time with this.
Re your second point: Every g.d day.
With regard to using fewer models in a tray than are in the unit, that’s what unit fillers are for. I don’t know why this was less prevalent in 8th, but in editions past, army supplements would actually have hobbying guides on how to create dioramas that use large bases to fill out the middle of the unit. All that matters is you have enough models in the back rank(s) to replace the filler base when it would be time to pull it. This way you don’t have to buy as many models and it’s aesthetically pleasing to look at.
Right?? So a lot of what I think is true about the "stigma" of unit fillers comes from reading through a lot of old forums and such... which is probably a bad way to judge any group of people. But it felt like in many circles, unit fillers were frowned upon.
I mean I can also remember getting into 40k around that time and airbrushes were considered controversial because they were a way to "cheat" at painting. So yeah. There were some really terrible takes that you don't see as much anymore.
Anyway - unit fillers I think are a really cool way to make warhammer units more practical and cooler looking. All for them.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld anybody who complains about unit fillers is trying to bully newer players who don’t realize they are both gw approved and grognard approved. Back when a unit of 50 goblin spearmen was literally 50 identically posed goblins it was the easiest way to add visual spice to the table, we had to break up the hobby monotony somehow.
Well I can tell you that a foundation of living #squarebassed will inlude unit fillers. I can't wait to craft a manifesto about all of this (assuming it's not explicitly already addressed by JTY)
@@SquareBasedOldWorld It might be archived somewhere, but GW used to have a "warrior's code" for use of fillers in competitive games on their website. The "code" was that no more than 20% of a unit could be based as filler. I don't personally know anyone who limited themselves to that, but I think it's useful to point to and say that even the most restrictive competitive rules on fillers allows them.
When I was younger and just started, we used to just have a front row, and use dice to represent the back rows. So an infantry unit of 20 had 5 in front, and a d20 with 15 wounds on it. So a unit of ten could be two units of 20.
Great show again - thanks! Thinking of converting my 5th ed Bret army to Old World now that it´s confirmed there´ll be no new grunt knights. But I guess I have to support the game by buying an army... TK it is!
Omg you'll get sand everywhere!! Glad you like the show!
Hey... Not gonna discourage a second army. You'll need one for teaching friends anyway
These guys feel like the Tim Pool and Quartering of the Old World, love it
Two of the worst people on the planet! Not thanks
@@SquareBasedOldWorldThank you! Subscribed and binging all your videos after this comment. They really are horrible folks. You are both awesome!
Not going to lie that short was great! Square based!
Totally with Val on the ‘big unit’ concerns, I’ve been expecting to find out what the mitigation to the crazy big unkillable ones might be. I’m also assuming there will be something, but I’m not sure what it could be right now, it’s certainly not something obvious.
My wild card is: more rules lol
@@SquareBasedOldWorld😂
the mitigation to large unit has always been lot of smaller units being able to flank charge to counter rank bonus, and extra attacks :|
I said in my comment to the short that it is, as you also said, 'engaging'.
Also I was meaning to say that I was engaging with the content, mostly to feed the algorythm
w/e man
Hey! Thank you. Thank you for feeding the algo and for the compliment.
Original Cold One Riders kit, I miss those
What's your best ever kit?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld the kit I've wanted forever, but didn't get when playing back in 3rd/4th cause you couldn't use special characters really, and now because it's so unbelievably expensive is High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer
Cool thing about Thorgrim is his origin story actually takes place during the Great War Against Chaos... so while we won't have his final form (though could definitely see lots of made to orders covering old SCs) I'll bet we see a beardling version of Thorgrim at some point - Val
Great video guys, always fun to see this show, totally agree with Val that we really haven't seen any mitigating factors for big blocks of infantry. However I disagree that Grail Knights look overcosted, they seem insane, AP is rarer than ever and with a return to only one rank of shooting (except volley fire which will probably be constrained to non AP weapons) means that the loss of a point of armour isn't that big a deal, especially since the extra Toughness makes up for it. But what I really think makes them insane is their "first charge" rule, the ability to strip a unit of its rank bonus used to be a 100pt magic banner it's that powerful an ability, this will be even easier to get off with countercharge. Also Grailvow is great and the ability to take 100pt banners (something we never saw on a unit in 8th) might be crazy. Love how the new special rules are laid out though, "nested" rules where rules were inherent to unit types or frenzied units being ItP for example always bugged me and slowed down the game as you had to check multiple pages for one clarification.
Yeah there's a ton of cool things that could make Grail Knights extra bananas ... but the only thing that matters is stuff to juice their resiliance. Like we're talking about 10 wounds in a big unit. That's probably around 500 points once all the trimmings are applied. 10 wounds means needing to force 30 saves to kill them with 0 AP. That doesn't not seem like a very high bar in shooting or combat.
I'm going to love when they're unstoppable death machines and I just get repeatedly dummied by them. Again - we don't know enough to truly judge... I just know what bad ass elite cav does in 8th ed and they have a better armour save : )
30 saves UNLESS they have the blessing of the lady, which is a 6+ or 5+ ward save, which also makes up for the decrease in armor.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld assuming BS3; a bow has a 1/27 chance to killing a grail knight, a crossbow has 1/18 and a handgun has 1/12, with the fact that units now only fire in one rank I can't see Grail knights losing models to any ranged unit except a lucky rolling 10 wide unit of handgunners. We don't have enough details to make such an analysis about close combat but now that you dont get additional AP for strength i feel that more than makes up for Grail Knights losing a point of armour. Generally it seems like tOW is going to be less killy than 8th edition so just having bodies on the ground to absorb losses may be less important. Unless of course we don't see anything to reduce the viability of big infantry blobs in which case yeah Grail knights are just going to get bogged down.
Yes, the 'first charge' thing sounds very powerful. Makes them very likely to win that first round of combat by a fair margin. I get that their opponents may well then 'fall back in good order' (though some will break fully), but my understanding is that the knights will then count as charging again in the next round of combat (assuming they choose to follow up) so get to keep their lance bonusses. It may well be that their opponents haven't got many ranks left after that...
Super cool chat again, so far the rules are looking good. Beefed up Grail Knights fit, but the 3+ armor keeps them in check, unbuffed that is.
yeah hey - in the fullness of time I'm sure I will be fed many grail knights while some Bretonnian try hard talks down to me like a peasant and crushes me.
Rob, Val. Mad respect for you both. What you guys are offering to the hobby. Loving this channel. 😊
Ooh can we get the square based logo on the underside of the bases you make. That would be a really cool detail!
I already submitted that feedback 😄
Amazing!! Thank you!!!
@@SquareBasedOldWorld still waiting to hear if this giga brain idea is happening hahaha
35:57 have goblins been pictured on 25’s?
We shall investigate
Yep they're 25mm as seen in the "Old World Development Diary - The More Things Change, the More they Stay the Same… " article.
www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/d5ZkYUTjDTqAzxxB.jpg
www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/AtmAJrqv2zD9S1ja.jpg
This! - Val
Can wait to watch this latter.
We hope you love it
@@SquareBasedOldWorld it was up to your usual high standard . I do think that with the bigger base size a unit of 10 wide is really going to suffer from wheeling as there is no free pivot, just some rough calculations has them using 4" to wheel 24~ degrees .
amazing content per usual! I’m so excited to get into old world but have no idea where to begin with collecting. hoping elves or dwarves are supported factions!
High Elves Wood Elves and Dwarves are all one of the main supported factions. Dark Elves will still get rules and have an extensive range of miniatures still available in AOS. You'll be fine whichever one you pick.
You're in luck! Those are "core" factions so you'll likely see their kits get relaunched at some point. We still don't know how things are going to work from the beginning. It's one of the unanswered questions. Though they did promise that the Almanacks would explore the future of the game at some point. So hopefully we hear about how the launch will go before the new year.
Superb show - my son and I love to watch your videos. We had our Christmas WFB 6th Edition farewell battle (TKs v Chaos Dwarf) it was a draw which was fitting. But! have you thought about offering printing services (or recommending) where 'Rogue' army players can go to have the PDF books actually printed into books?
Awww this warms my heart! I hope one day when my son watches these he's not tremendously confused and disappointed ; )
😀I started my boy at 7 with the remake of HeroQuest and our local club (Dice Saloon Brighton) runs a superb kids club to bring kids into AOS & 40K. But the horror about rebasing Empire, Wood Elves, High Elves and Chaos Dwarves! But REALLY wish we could get tickets to the GT (we are on holiday) so will miss it - but the next one! will take him to play at the next one.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld
I missed out on the live stream as it was beddy time for aus so catching up here. Looking forward to seeing what we’re up to!!
i have carpel tunnel
What I think that counters the argument of that big block being the thing is that small blocks also get the "steadfast". You also can't fall back in good order the whole game because game table ends at some point and the catcher gets the charge bonuses if you happen to fall back little. And bigger block likely can't find a gap to stop in, so they might run off the table easily. Or if they fall behind own lines, it's then now hard to charge because your unit is too wide.
That's not a bad point - have they addressed what happens if you "fall back in good order" to a table edge?
Been absolutely binging this playlist while the old world hype builds. I'm even more excited for the Big Teal Book than I thought I was.. If you do end up doing the butt shorts; use the butt end of the mount models :P Ngl, I'd love to see more Square BASED vibes showing up in my instagram and shorts feed, the vibes are immaculate
In 10E 40K actually added points-based enhancements (Traits and Relics combined into a single category) back in, and they're often pretty model-defining! Hopefully that means we see something like it in AoS 4e.
Comment for the algorithm ✊🏻 Thanks for the great pod guys!
so... many... comments
Appreciate the content and all the efforts. Butts for Shorts ftw! :D
SHORT BUTTS! LONG BACKS!!
From the 23rd minute, new/old customer focus: I'd say GW would be dumb (but yeah, okay, they usually go that route) to ignore the Total War crowd that has developed as an entirely new fanbase for the World of Legend(TM). You might have seen this, maybe not, but when Baldur's Gate 3 finally released, Wizards of the Coast/official D&D/DnDBeyond also released a wave of videos all geared towards people who had never played tabletop D&D but played BG3. For all their faults, which are many, they at least recognized the potential new audience/customer base.
They didnt release any modesl for Vermintide when it came out with teh ubersreik 5 so dont get your hopes up with GW. Same with books, many characters that are loved have no models
There are a lot of no-brainer things like this that in fact make one realize how much we take brains for granted. I don't know why a company of this scale wouldn't do stuff like this. But they dont'. Routinely.
I've sometimes chaulked it up to snobbery almost? Like it's gauche to try hard? There is certainly an aloof quality to their business practices. HOWEVER
The flipside is that a competently run company would immediately realise how insane being a miniatures based tabletop company with a brick and mortar retail chain and paper publishing arm is in 2023 and nuke everything we love. I don't think the thing we like exists if GW didn't have its head up its bum most of the time.
This show has been amazing for explaining how it's all going to work.
As a kid I never got into fantasy because all my friends played 40k, by the time I had the inclination to try it they destroyed the game and I couldn't find anyone to play with.
I'm super excited to try out my ogres in this new game and I was super tempted to get a ticket to your event but I think i will wait until the next one.
Heck yeah Ogres!
So hyped for Old world. Moving my 140 grots to square bases. Let the night goblins return!
I'm looking at my Skaven and Gobbos and thinking .... maaaaybe for these guys I just figure out some cleverly spaced movement trays.
Great show! Again. You're Legends! ;)
high five!
I'm glad you brought up the issue of how unkillable units seem due to the psuedo-Steadfast that is Fall Back in Good Order (FBiGO).
My only hope is that we are missing a major mechanic, for example:
Units that run out of space to complete their FBiGO due to the board edge, impassable terrain, enemy units, or friendly units lose various amounts of additional wounds (perhaps equal to the unit strength of what the FBiGO tried to move through). I would imagine this would also trigger when a unit gets a FBiGO while they are attacked from different frontages. This way clever maneauvres can make FBiGO a decisive result!
Yes - others have speculated and I have too that hopefully there are missing mechanics that prevent or limit FBIGO (acronymn coined for all eternity) - Val.
@SquareBasedOldWorld I guess I hope the onus is on the player "planning" to lose combat to ensure their FBiGO is safe.
They should have to give this tarpit unit space away from the board edge, protect its flanks, etc. or it needs to pass the *modified* check or be deleted (like the good old days of 6th edition). As opposed to "I took 100 halberdiers and they take 100 wounds to kill unless I fail my rerollable unmodified check" like 8th edition.
(Well I thought I’d already commented but now I can’t see it 🤔)
Anyway, I love the Grail Knight models 😂
I don’t think the drop to a 3+ will be as much a nerf as potentially thought, with the increase to toughness four and the separation of strength and ap I think they’ll be about as survivable as they were. Now arguably they were already too squishy anyway!
As ever, thanks for the shoutout! We would love to come to SBGT2! We’ve slid into Val’s DM’s (a terrifying place to be!) to check if there’s any tickets left as I imagine they’ll be going fast!
Tickets secured, we'll see you there!
I'm assuming you saw the Tomb King box leak (or perhaps greased up some palms to get it out there) but it seems not all horses are on 30x60. 😮
Ok fine! ALL FLESHY HORSIES are probably on 30x60 ... for pete's sake lol
@SquareBasedOldWorld 🤣 im not trying to be pedantic, haha, just don't know if there is going to be such a fast and loose rule.
Hey guys! Super excited for the game and loving all the videos. The amount of time ive spent staring at the artwork in my 6th ed core book and Bret book is madness 😂.
Really hoping we see more of that style.
I dont mind the models being old as it takes me back to being a yound lad stood in GW with those hefty blister packs 😅. Hopefully they will get updated eventually...
I ( Rob ) think the art is a driving factor in why Warhammer is so successful. It's inspirational and aspirational
@@SquareBasedOldWorld completely agree! Going to have a flick through both books over the weekend and bask in their glory
eh by's. good friggen work. I am really loving this TOW stuff. I am beyond stoked for this. I am so cautiously optimistic about it all. I supported 6-8e hard, all the way to the end times and I just couldn't get into AOS, also fell out of love for 40k once they dropped the charts and USR. Been through a lot the last few years myself, so I respect the changes, I just couldn't get into it anymore, and have felt guilty about it , as effed as that seems. Hopefully this brings me back to the community, looking forward to the nostalgia/dopamine if nothing else. Sub+ like from me for this video. Cheers to Sudz, love rogues content too.
Part of the issue with points like Grail Knights is it only makes sense in the context of what a game should be. The points cost for any particular unit would be presumably different in a world where 1000 points is the norm vs 3000
Are you guys going to put out a battle tracker app for The Old World, like Rob did for AoS?
Rob did this for AoS? I should really pay more attention to all the stuff he gets up to
Grail knights have 2 wounds. They already said mounts confer one extra wound on the model (may obviously be more for larger mounts like dragons, no idea there).
Naw they don't. not on the profile they revealed anyway. Remember the warcom writers don't actually know what they're talking about. SOME mounts confer extra wounds, like we saw with - the unicorn maybe?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld im pretty sure they said all mounts do, and it confers cavalry and extra wound in all cases.
I'll just say this more categorically: they don't get an extra wound unfortunately.
love this show. So excited for this.
Us too
Thanks guys
You are so welcome
Could artillery with templates and lines of effect be a way of countering big unit blocks? Do we know if they will be in this version?
I think the big problem with big blocks of wide infantry is that because the wheel counts in the charge just by being to one side of them, they will not be able to charge. No mobility.
This is a common counterpoint and I really don't think it's as big of a balancing factor as many would think. A battleline of wide frontage units don't really need to be able to wheel much, they just go straight, or just stand there being big. Assuming this game is centred on kill points, just being hard to kill is a form of offense.
Fist on the square and blow it up on the bassed
Four corners! Four walls!!
I really am so excited by the black and white (or sepia and less sepia) art. It’s so much more evocative and engaging than the AoS low-detail pastel watercolor art style. 90s whfb art was more high contrast and poppy. I think they were often BIG oil canvas paintings that were shrunk down for the books etc
Art is Warhammer
RE infantry blocks vs cav. The article said “If their First Charge of the game makes contact, the target unit loses its rank bonus until the next round of combat.” If you add the whatever rank bonus of Lance formation will be a big infantry unit could be in a lot of trouble if charged first. I’m hopeful as others have said that we’ll see enough contingencies to mitigate the steadfast horde issues of 8th. Really enjoying the show. Keep it up. Thanks
Sure - until that unit is able to "fall back in good order" by passing an unmodified LD check. There's obviously lots that can impact that situation (perhaps a unit with a flank or rear charge cannot fall back in good order) - but we don't know yet. As it stands it is harder on average to chase down a unit you've defeated in combat.
Have you guys discovered New Recruit? It's used for 9th Age and I'm hoping he updates it for Old World. It's amazing, you don't need any rulebooks as you can select the units rules and it shows you. 🤞
We shall go look now!!
Be mindful that New recruit is like Battlescribe. The information is handled by people and at times there can be mistakes. It's a great tool but double checking your books is still important.
No one that would play any games ever watches tiktok, you're doing fine over here I think. Just be patient and keep putting good stuff out.
Harsh, I enjoy the odd Tok Tik of an evening.
I think you'd be surprised
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I wish. Would mean the world still has something capable of surprising me!
These dudes rockin it
I watched the short!
Far out.
One thing about big units being a problem, if units arent steadfast and fail against their unmodified ld then at least you get to recharge them. Most big units tended to have less than brilliant ld. Hopefully you cant use generals ld if theyre not in the unit and bsb doesnt give rerolls which should mean you can constantly beat units in combat and push them back and get fresh charges especially with cav. First round was always good. Steadfast then meant the second round was a bust and thats where you lost. Keeping the charge bonus would mean you kept winning
Recharge is so good!!
Just out of interest. If you don't want BSBs to give a re-roll, what would you like BSBs to do instead?
Disappointed there was no coverage on how the “world of legend” black library books were absolutely not old world… not even sure what was the world of legend books. Here’s to hoping for new old world novels 🤞🏻. You guys rock!
Well, the "Lords of the Lance" book inadvertently leaked by a French retailer was clearly intended to be revealed at the Black Library previews. It's a mystery why they didn't. Maybe a last minute delay to change heraldry on cover?
Yeah was gonna say - world of legend is deffo regarding the broader fantasy world now ( they used that language in the almanack in the final paragraph)
However like black library it seems we just forgot to talk about it
I'm a put it out there - World Championships, Guernsey 2024
Now we are pod racing
@SquareBasedOldWorld no, sir....
......now...
.....now we are pod racing
Black knights, Orc boar boyz, blood knights, Empire knights, Cold one Knights (Dark Elf and Lizards), all Bret knights (not yeoman) I think will be 30x60 for sure.
A base chart asap is vital!
I literally have no interest in playing Old World but I love learning about and thunking about it, great cast boiz. SQUARE BASSED!
That's amazing you like the show and appreciate you a lot!!!
Whoooooooooo! Let's go!
Square Based!!!
Hioefully there will be some nice STL for 25z50 into 30x60 unit tray!
TRAYS ARE ON SALE ON THE WEBSITE THINGY
When Val said the "message the Warhammer crew as soon as you get up..." Damn, I have felt that. My older likes to make fun of me, saying "I am Marko, and (AoS) figurines are my soul!"
Morning boo!
Hey Rob, nice shirt.
That's why I say hey Rob nice shirt. Nice shirt, Rob.
HEEEEEYYYYY ROOOOOOB NIIIICE SHIIIIIIRRRT
I was really hoping they'd have unit cards/stats that showed the meaning of their special rules and not just the rule name. It's gonna be a challenge to keep track of all those.
We can make a searchable PDF. It'll be easy
You'll be amazed how quickly you learn the main USRs and especially the main ones in your army.
Although I speculated a bit about the downside of separating the USRs from unit definitions (like monsters and stomp) ... I will say a lot of my brain cramps came from finding special rules nestled into other special rules. However this is the kind of stuff that will get easier with repetition and that can be made a bit less difficult with good ol game aids... digital or paper.
It’s very easy to get used to
Thanks for the great videos. You are the only ones doing anything this indepth I think.
Not sure if I am right about something. Its been a while since I played with square bases, but..... Are the grail knights in the picture used not on the old cavalry bases? Would this not suggest, as GW have not bothered redoing some grail knights for the promos that something new, and so far unrevealed, might be on the way?
The first part I'd say is correct.... That they did not bother rebasing.
The second half however I'm not holding out hope for
We must keep the faith. For the lady.
Hi Val. Yet another RUclips video has been produced and you still have not claimed your square throne. Light a candle in the background of your camera and the RUclips army will rise up and conquer the Honest Wargamer studios and dethrone the tyrant Rob. We will exile him to the Age of Sigmar circle twitch chat realm in the name of house Heffelfinger!!!!!!
Look man I don't know if you noticed but he's started replying to RUclips comments. You don't know. I might even be him. IT IS NOT SAFE HERE.
Bass for the bass god, fuel for the algorithm
We thank you for your sacrifice
Cant believe you didnt consider the CanCon shed of heat death as one of tbe best venues in the world 😂
RIGHT!!!
Where can I download the 30x60 bases? I can't find them on Patreon..
I didn't upload them yet. Will do later
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Thank you!
On the big units I suppose one question is why be so big if you don't need to be big to get something like steadfast? Obviously it will take longer to destroy a bigger unit if it doesn't ever break, but if it does you lose more than if a smaller unit breaks or is destroyed. And you could have two or three smaller units rather than one big one, each of which could be 'steadfast' in turn. There does seem to be a tendency for this to be discussed as though no unit is ever going to fail a test on its natural leadership when it has to be the case that some types of unit are really going to fail them pretty regularly. Presumably generals and BSBs will have a say in that though in low leadership armies some units will still break even when in range which they won't all be anyway. It maybe gives more reason than before to go after the opponent's general or BSB (I realise there could be big downsides to that), not sure yet.
I think big units are just a natural reaction to kill points that were all or nothing. And if you had to bring a lot of easily killed infantry - it was better to have them huddled together to maybe stick it out longer. Stacking buffs, etc. So I dunno, we'll see. I guess my main point is I don't explicitly see the end of big bricks anywhere. That doesn't mean that's where the meta will wind up, but I just don't see an over correction to make them unusable.
Team USA is getting ready! #SquareBased
LETS GO CHUCK
Where is your link to your twitch channel?
It's twitch.tv/thehonestwargamer
I just need the colour schemes for the Empire and Bretonnia and I can get to work.
looks like your right i just got a warning from the facebook group,. now all my posts are being screened before they can be seen in the group
Awh that's a shame but totally ok
meh there loss lol
@@SquareBasedOldWorld
I believe that flanking and rear attacks should prevent units from falling back in good order. I don’t see how it can't work. Let's say I successfully execute a rear charge against a large unit of 40 dwarfs. After killing nine of them and winning decisively on combat resolution, they roll under 9. All that happens is they flee 1d6 inches, automatically rally and reform, and are then ready to receive the charge of their pursuer or to hit back in the next turn. Now, I have lost the advantage of my hard-earned flank and rear charge, rendering it totally pointless.....
if it's anything like WAB then maybe!
I have also been preaching for years that heroes in AoS should have options and special wargear for points for things, make heroes custom again. In Warhammer I don't recall anyone ever playing named characters, custom ones were always far better. Named were there for narrative, but not meant to be OP or always taken. Bring back that +1 attack and other generic magic/ artifact weapons and then specific ones in each book! Sometimes basic things are good, other times it is fun just to take thematic things or silly things.
To Val's point about custom kits. I honestly thought that in AoS a quick way to upgrade the Freeguild would have been to scrap the FG Guard or empire troop and provide an upgrade sprue to sell separately or include in the Greatsword box with those weapon options. Doing this scraps the janky looking troop unit (with missing shoes, tiny hands, and no eyes) and still allows for weapon options to work with a better modular kit, since the GS unit is basically armored the same (just more shoes). This would be similar to how the Imperial guard upgrade kit works and could been a massive improvement to the Freeguild line (before the recent update) and to the ToW Empire range.
Holy shit. You just blew my mind re: greatswords kitbash! WTF. How have I never seen this done before?
I will admit that I'm very much looking forward to making a Marienburg army specific for Old World (One of the Three Emperors baby! Emperess actually, I think?) ... and this could be a super cool idea to base the infantry on.
My heart breaks that the landship will not make narrative sense in the game, but oh well. LAND SHIP IS LIFE.
Also re: special characters... in 8th this was largely true, but also there were some absolute BANGER special characters in just about every faction. The majority were definitely junk however.
Got to love Rob and Val. They ate the best.
Thanks so much
And by eating the best, became the best.
Commenting way before I've finished watching as always but I must say, I wouldn't be *opposed* to some sxandalous beefcake and cheesecake in the background.
You guys are saying that the knights might be T4 because they are mounted, but as far as I can see the damsel / prophetess on a pegasus will only be T3.
It says t4 on the sheet in the article
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Yes I know, I'm talking about the assertion that all cavalry might be T4.
Assertion is harsh... I would prefer to hedge any of my free associated thoughts as "musings"... unless I'm right. In this case - definitely musings. - Val
Wooohooo!!!
#squarebasssssssed
Hey guys. I have a question. What’s the best way to effectively evaluate the effectiveness of any given unit? This is something I can’t wrap my head around in any way. It’s something I think AoS was much better at with new players by giving the units a unique rule it kinda helps define a roll and effectiveness of a unit.
But how do you do it FB/HH/OW? Do you find the average stat line for the game and compare to that per point? Test the health by having an average unit swing at them? This mixed with the ability to add any number of models to a unit means surely there’s an effective unit size but how do you guys do it? Might make a useful teaching vid for us new guys
And this is how you wind up going to bed talking to your warhammer friends and waking up talking to your warhammer friends. I can guarantee we'll definitely talk to this point a lot as soon as the crunch is revealed to us.
I’m sure one of the older articles said that TOW was aimed more at a returning player base than new players but listening to Rob has me now doubting myself/my own sanity! (Doesn’t take much 😂)
And for clarity, parry saves were also only for unmounted models.
Rob wants to completely ignore what the game has always been marketed as. It’s not AOS, thank god.
It doesn't matter what it's marketed as or what they think it is - there are far more people out here in these streets that engaged with Warhammer Fantasy via video games and other media than ever did on the tabletop. So those people (along with the nostalgia folks) are gonna be coming to play this game.
ultimately the game is played by the people who show up, not who GW thinks will show up. Rob and I think they're wrong and underestimating the power of the setting and the IP. But hey - as long as people play. We're happy.
Question! For the squarebased GT….obviously we won’t know until the game is launched how things will work for tournaments where the non-core factions are concerned, however, without all the informatIon yet do you currently plan to allow non-core factions or is that yet to be confirmed? Am talkin’ bout’ vampire counts, dark elves etc…?
Renegade factions will be 100% legal
@@SquareBasedOldWorld woohoo, awesome. Thank you!
Wood elves of Avelorn? Is Alarielle a wood elf?
I immediately wanted that one back
Sheesh Val - Val.
Just stumbled upon this channel earlier today and been watching some of your videos. My only real gripe is how long you guys chit chat before ever getting to the topic of the video. One video might be 15-20 mins, this one looks to be about 30 mins. now im instinctively skipping through the first chunk of the videos to get past the irrelevent stuff. Like chit chatting is cool, but may also be cool to have a shorter video where the meat is being addressed and the fat is cut, so to speak. ;). Would make it easier for us new viewers to get into it more. Just a opinion. Feel free to ignore it :P. I am stoked for this game and they better not do to the legacy armies like they did in sigmar, where they do the "oh yeah sure its not part of the narrative but if you have the models we have rules for them! Then as the game gets popular they sneak into the back and behead all the legacy rules without saying anything.
Vampire counts/undead and bretonnia are prob my favorite factions in all of fantasy. and it bothers me i feel forced to play discount classic undead tomb kings ;P. Which I did print a hefty large bag chock full of skeleton spearmen and undead archers haha.
The chit chat as you say is part of the show. Yes we read the articles and discuss but there are already many channels that will read things to you.
You can even read them yourself.
I still wonder if gobbos might stay on 20's
Nah. 25s. There's pics of basic gobbos. I am also fairly certain that they said something along the lines of "all 20mm bases will move to 25s" ... but that could be a hallucenation
just me feel like the old metal blood knight look better
ARE YOU MAD!?
i think so have 25 of them@@SquareBasedOldWorld
I don't think you're THAT crazy in an Old World / Fantasy context. Properly scaled horses are going to be a real challenge to integrate into Old World because the scale difference is so jarring. The odd thing is that the new Blood Knights actually kinda fit lenght and width wise... it's height that makes them look like they're in an entirely different scale.
I think you kind of see this already with the new resin Bretonian bsb model. That horse looks to my eyes to be properly scaled and I'll bet it makes any unit mates along side it look ridiculous.
Also 25?? Did you cash out before the dotcom crash or something? - Val
parry saves were only for foot people not mounted i'm pretty sure.
Damn. I would love to come to the event but it’s kind of a non starter as the firstborn is due then.
Please attend that event instead. We promise there will be many more events over many years.
Yeah family requirements before fun events but as the TOW train has no breaks we should have plenty of chances in the future for great old world hobby and events!!
Big units yes, but follow up charges means cav will hit, follow, hit with bonuses, hit follow, hit follow and you will push even dwarfs either off the board or kill them all.. 3 or 4 hit follow and those 9 dead dwarfs become 36 and even if you had 50 you are fucked. We had overrun charges in 7th edition and they kept going until a unit was lost or stopped by a successful breaktest only giving grownd rather than falling back. BTW I love big unit meta, more than MSU, and you can always hit back with 20-30 cav in a single hit.
Sounds like you're saying square-bassed. Which sounds like a processed fish patty...
If you look behind Val you will see his flag is actually loads of fish! SQUARE BASSED BABY
Renegade faction chats, discuss
FFFFFFFFFF.... OK OK. TODAY IS THE DAY
Groovy
So square based it's unreal
Intro Val!
Thanks for the video. The old World FB Group is like the Moy Eisley Cantina. So many viel people in there..and it looks like that most of them are just there to complain about everything GW related and when they talk about ToW..its to have a reason to shit on GW.
Grail Knights being only 1 wound is ........ interesting
Normal humans just did not get multiple wounds in fantasy. Only heroes and generals and even then it'd be 2 or 3 for Lord.
Controversial opinion: why doesn't the horse count as a wound?
The naming is a bit stupid, though. "Universal" rules, that are yet _special_ for _certain_ units. Language-wise it's like saying "water on fire".