Thanks for these videos Erin! I'm mostly DIY for subs but I can't get enough of your videos. (Both these sub reviews and all the other videos even if I don't interact here much) I know the distortion at 20Hz is mostly 2nd order. But I couldn't live with that level of distortion especially at that frequency. I know I lose a good bit of sensitivity under 30Hz but can still hear 20Hz decently well. But 2nd order distortion at 20Hz would be 40Hz, and I'm not insensitive to 40Hz like I am at 20Hz.
@@StCreed 20-30% would make it unlistenable. At any frequency. Even 10% gets hard to tolerate for me unless I have other areas masking it. I like my bass to not be above 2% max for distortion in home. And in my car I let it get away with a bit higher but not much past 5%.
Dude puts some serious research into his videos and subjective love the enthusiasm personally not a big fan of measurements because room matters alot of course but awesome channel and Thank you !!
Love it. I have the og Ls50s i got on sale for $999. Sad to see they've already been upgraded with the metas, and no one talks or compares the originals anymore
Thanks for all the work to test these subs. Since most people will cross these at 80hz, could you also run frequency response tests with an 80hz low pass using the setting on the woofer? This will give us a better FR graph as it will likely be used and it will show us how accurate the settings are compared to the actual FR. Thanks.
Room mode kind of applies a low pass filter around 100 hz and the spl around 20-30 hz seems to be the same between room mode and LFE mode in both subwoofers, though I wonder how much the distortion change.
Just placed an order for the KEF LS50 Wireless 2 speakers and your data suggested that the KF92 sub would likely be a better pairing for me in my office. It’s only a 12‘ x 12‘ room but I am confident that this should be a good companion to the speakers. I also got the wireless thing that goes on the sub that supposed to help you position it better but in all honesty, I have no idea what it does, but it’s coming. I picked up some desk stands from a company called ion Forge and I can’t wait to get this all set up next week or the week after when it arrives
@@sethwilliams6203 Its working like a charm and Im still playing with placement but its so much easier with the KW1 on the sub. The newer version of the software is also so much better with the HDMI cable that was unuseable. I now listen to most of my music through my earc with Apple Music and the settings at their highest. Very happy.
Greetings from Germany. I love your work and your character is great/epic. Your videos have often helped me. I bought the KC62 blindly because the technology is impressive, unfortunately, it was ultimately too quiet even on my desktop. Im demanding a lot of bass for gaming. Happy right now with Neumann KH 120 II + KH 750, little bit more oomph and automatic calibration makes everything easy. its double the size but still super small visually, same size as kf92
Could be, but im also super curious how important time and phase alignment in subwoofer + Mains is. The neumann subwoofer and speaker can time themself automaticly. Dont know how important that is
6db difference is huge i think below 30hz, perhaps even higher, should be easy to test but when it is loud enough to create a physical impact it should be three times as impactful, but only sound 50% louder. that is why the lower the frequency the closer 3db is to doubling the effect.
Great detailed review. I would kindly like to request a review on the Bowers & Wilkins DB3D, another compact dual opposing subwoofer. I think the SPL results in comparison to both the KEFs would be really interesteing.
Any chance you'd be able to get a hold of the Dynaudio Sub 6 for review? That's also a dual opposed subwoofer with 9.45" drivers. Very curious how they stack up to these since Dynaudio rates them down to 16 Hz.
I work in the pro-audio/PA realm, and looking at the max dbSPL graphs makes me wish I had the luxury of those low SPLs sometimes to make hitting the required frequency range numbers easier by an order of magnitude or three. :P
I had the kc62 but we got the 92 at our store for demo and I swapped. The kf92 will walk all over kc at every opportunity. Even in smaller rooms just tweak some settings!
I probably wouldn't ever buy a kc62, but I see the value in it. It really is tiny, and it looks super cool. I don't really see the value in the kf92. Its way bigger than I expected it to be and it doesn't really look any better than most of SVS's or Rythmik's gloss black subs. It seems hard to justify when something like an sb1000 pro is only $700 and is only slightly bigger.
Can you please review REL subs? I want to see if they’re used of analog filters is truly faster and better than using DSP. Also would love to get your thoughts on high level vs low level inputs. Thanks!
@@ErinsAudioCorner Can you please review the Arendal 1723 1S subwoofer? They are delivered direct with a 60 day audition period after which they can be returned. The 1S (S for sealed) is smaller in size than the 1V (vented) which comes with a plug for the venting port.
The KF92 has a change in group delay around 60Hz-90Hz as you said. There is also a droop in the frequency response there. If we EQ the response flat, would the group delay also become flat(er)? Similar on the low end where group delay quickly rises and appears to corresponds to the roll-off in the frequency response.
I don’t know for certain but I’d expect if you do any DSP work then the delay would appear there. If you added DSP to make it flat, would it increase the GD? If so, would you want to use DSP to flatten above that (in the 60-90Hz region) to increase the GD so it matches the delay below 60Hz? IOW, I have no idea. 😂
I've found putting the SVS Micro3000 nearfield next to my listening position makes up for the loss of power compared to a larger model. Any downsides of nearfield sub listening? Maybe a good subject for a future video?
I had some really good results in a dual subwoofer setup having one nearfield and the other in a corner. The corner one did better in the low frequencies and the one near me was better for 45Hz-90Hz. Combined with a MiniDSP I was able to get some really nice response.
Great comparison. I'm very curious as how these compare to larger single driver subs. The total cone area is quite large on these, but how does that play out?
Its worth noting vessel gains and boundary support are kind to the LF fundamental, ... elevating the fundamental at a higher rate than it's harmonic products above. I suspect it's somewhat of a push however, as per the equal loudness contours impact. Keep bringing the heat ... solid work.
The claim of extension to 11Hz on either is extremely disingenuous, was obvious that would be the case, but still. Bit of a stain against KEF really as usually they are pretty honest and don't fall into the trap of wild claims.🤦
@@conduit242hm I dont think so since its not specified at which volume it reaches 11Hz. And looking at their white paper, the expected in room response has the -3 dB point at 11Hz (not anechoic respinse) when at even moserate listening levels (90 dB)
I'm confused if I should buy one KF92 or 2 pieces of Kube12b. I mainly listen to music in a large room and will pair the sub with Kef R5 and Kef R2c. What are your thoughts? thanks Erin.
What did you choose? Same thing but with kef cube 8 or kef kc62 because the price difference is quite a gap... Also I noticed for music, you don't need crazy drivers size.. 8inch or 10inch would be my maximum, power and speed of the driver and high power) is way more important imho I have a svs 1000w.... Doesn't work for music because of the size of the driver and hard to pair in a lively living room
@@alexvikendi1768 I found a local retailer who lent me the kubes and kf92 to try. Hands down adding 2 subs gives a much balanced and punchier bass. Unless you are putting this in an enclosed room I’d 101% go with 2 subs. Good luck with the setup!
@@rohankakar2644 glad you found out =) but completely outside my budget 😅 I'm gonna keep looking, but I'm hesitant to switch unfortunately in passive , given juste the price of one kc62.
Hi Erin thanks for excellent comparison with the detail statistics, i m little confused, i have a small room 10x12 ft with 9 ft cealing already have two rel t5xs for music, want to add subs for movies hence t5xs not producing enough spl or effect during movies its excellent for music though, my room is small if i go with two kc62s i can place them to side walls or should i go with only one kc92. Please if you can guide a bit .. thanks you.
I wonder why the KC62 is not designed to retain a more linear output in the lower frequency range at the lower volume when it can do that at higher volumes.
Could you please tell me whether KC 62, KF 92 or Kube 12b will compliment a R11 Meta setup? It’s a 17x15 feet room and I’ll be about 13-14 feet away from the unit. Thank you!
Hi Erin, My room is 30 sqm. I have a Klipsch Reference Premier 7.1.2 setup. Am looking for second sub woofer. I listen to music and watch movies. Between these two which one would you recommend?
Alpha audio recommends going with 2 subs whenever you can. This reduces room issues. It should still give the same output volume, but perhaps not the same low end.
It's so nice to have a thorough and analytical comparison between these two subs.
Thanks for these videos Erin! I'm mostly DIY for subs but I can't get enough of your videos. (Both these sub reviews and all the other videos even if I don't interact here much)
I know the distortion at 20Hz is mostly 2nd order. But I couldn't live with that level of distortion especially at that frequency. I know I lose a good bit of sensitivity under 30Hz but can still hear 20Hz decently well. But 2nd order distortion at 20Hz would be 40Hz, and I'm not insensitive to 40Hz like I am at 20Hz.
Thank you for the kind words!
But at 40 Hz you'd need about 20-30% distortion to even start hearing it, isn't it?
@@StCreed 20-30% would make it unlistenable. At any frequency.
Even 10% gets hard to tolerate for me unless I have other areas masking it.
I like my bass to not be above 2% max for distortion in home. And in my car I let it get away with a bit higher but not much past 5%.
Dude puts some serious research into his videos and subjective love the enthusiasm personally not a big fan of measurements because room matters alot of course but awesome channel and Thank you !!
I’ve had the Kef R400b which was the predecessor to the 92. Thing is still a beast 6 years later & working well with my original LS50W’s
Love it. I have the og Ls50s i got on sale for $999. Sad to see they've already been upgraded with the metas, and no one talks or compares the originals anymore
Thanks for all the work to test these subs. Since most people will cross these at 80hz, could you also run frequency response tests with an 80hz low pass using the setting on the woofer? This will give us a better FR graph as it will likely be used and it will show us how accurate the settings are compared to the actual FR. Thanks.
Room mode kind of applies a low pass filter around 100 hz and the spl around 20-30 hz seems to be the same between room mode and LFE mode in both subwoofers, though I wonder how much the distortion change.
Just placed an order for the KEF LS50 Wireless 2 speakers and your data suggested that the KF92 sub would likely be a better pairing for me in my office. It’s only a 12‘ x 12‘ room but I am confident that this should be a good companion to the speakers. I also got the wireless thing that goes on the sub that supposed to help you position it better but in all honesty, I have no idea what it does, but it’s coming. I picked up some desk stands from a company called ion Forge and I can’t wait to get this all set up next week or the week after when it arrives
Let us know how you like em!
any update on the subwoofer?
@@sethwilliams6203 Its working like a charm and Im still playing with placement but its so much easier with the KW1 on the sub. The newer version of the software is also so much better with the HDMI cable that was unuseable. I now listen to most of my music through my earc with Apple Music and the settings at their highest. Very happy.
No lag from wireless use? Or interference at all?
Greetings from Germany. I love your work and your character is great/epic. Your videos have often helped me. I bought the KC62 blindly because the technology is impressive, unfortunately, it was ultimately too quiet even on my desktop. Im demanding a lot of bass for gaming. Happy right now with Neumann KH 120 II + KH 750, little bit more oomph and automatic calibration makes everything easy. its double the size but still super small visually, same size as kf92
It sounds to me like a sub location issue. You needed to find the right location for the sub.
Could be, but im also super curious how important time and phase alignment in subwoofer + Mains is. The neumann subwoofer and speaker can time themself automaticly. Dont know how important that is
6db difference is huge i think below 30hz, perhaps even higher, should be easy to test but when it is loud enough to create a physical impact it should be three times as impactful, but only sound 50% louder. that is why the lower the frequency the closer 3db is to doubling the effect.
Great detailed review. I would kindly like to request a review on the Bowers & Wilkins DB3D, another compact dual opposing subwoofer. I think the SPL results in comparison to both the KEFs would be really interesteing.
Any chance you'd be able to get a hold of the Dynaudio Sub 6 for review? That's also a dual opposed subwoofer with 9.45" drivers. Very curious how they stack up to these since Dynaudio rates them down to 16 Hz.
I work in the pro-audio/PA realm, and looking at the max dbSPL graphs makes me wish I had the luxury of those low SPLs sometimes to make hitting the required frequency range numbers easier by an order of magnitude or three. :P
Thanks for another excellent comparison! Would you please consider comparing the kc62 and SVS 3000 micro? I think that would be quite interesting.
I had the kc62 but we got the 92 at our store for demo and I swapped. The kf92 will walk all over kc at every opportunity. Even in smaller rooms just tweak some settings!
I probably wouldn't ever buy a kc62, but I see the value in it. It really is tiny, and it looks super cool.
I don't really see the value in the kf92. Its way bigger than I expected it to be and it doesn't really look any better than most of SVS's or Rythmik's gloss black subs.
It seems hard to justify when something like an sb1000 pro is only $700 and is only slightly bigger.
Can you please review REL subs? I want to see if they’re used of analog filters is truly faster and better than using DSP. Also would love to get your thoughts on high level vs low level inputs. Thanks!
I’ve tried. I can’t get them to return an email. I’m considering buying one myself to review, but they’re not cheap.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Can you please review the Arendal 1723 1S subwoofer? They are delivered direct with a 60 day audition period after which they can be returned. The 1S (S for sealed) is smaller in size than the 1V (vented) which comes with a plug for the venting port.
@@ErinsAudioCornerwell buy one online and then return it after you're done. And dont tell anyone
The distortion differences are a big surprise. Thank you for diving into the root causes. Very interesting.
The KF92 has a change in group delay around 60Hz-90Hz as you said. There is also a droop in the frequency response there. If we EQ the response flat, would the group delay also become flat(er)?
Similar on the low end where group delay quickly rises and appears to corresponds to the roll-off in the frequency response.
I don’t know for certain but I’d expect if you do any DSP work then the delay would appear there. If you added DSP to make it flat, would it increase the GD? If so, would you want to use DSP to flatten above that (in the 60-90Hz region) to increase the GD so it matches the delay below 60Hz?
IOW, I have no idea. 😂
I've found putting the SVS Micro3000 nearfield next to my listening position makes up for the loss of power compared to a larger model. Any downsides of nearfield sub listening? Maybe a good subject for a future video?
I had some really good results in a dual subwoofer setup having one nearfield and the other in a corner. The corner one did better in the low frequencies and the one near me was better for 45Hz-90Hz. Combined with a MiniDSP I was able to get some really nice response.
Great comparison. I'm very curious as how these compare to larger single driver subs. The total cone area is quite large on these, but how does that play out?
Its worth noting vessel gains and boundary support are kind to the LF fundamental, ... elevating the fundamental at a higher rate than it's harmonic products above.
I suspect it's somewhat of a push however, as per the equal loudness contours impact.
Keep bringing the heat ... solid work.
While you are on the call or email with Kef to return them, Can you request the reference 5 or reference 8b?
The claim of extension to 11Hz on either is extremely disingenuous, was obvious that would be the case, but still. Bit of a stain against KEF really as usually they are pretty honest and don't fall into the trap of wild claims.🤦
If you drop them down a long staircase - 11hz.
@@Bradimus1 🤣🤣
It’s flat out false advertising and they are asking for a lawsuit
@@conduit242hm I dont think so since its not specified at which volume it reaches 11Hz. And looking at their white paper, the expected in room response has the -3 dB point at 11Hz (not anechoic respinse) when at even moserate listening levels (90 dB)
I'm confused if I should buy one KF92 or 2 pieces of Kube12b. I mainly listen to music in a large room and will pair the sub with Kef R5 and Kef R2c. What are your thoughts? thanks Erin.
What did you choose? Same thing but with kef cube 8 or kef kc62 because the price difference is quite a gap... Also I noticed for music, you don't need crazy drivers size.. 8inch or 10inch would be my maximum, power and speed of the driver and high power) is way more important imho
I have a svs 1000w.... Doesn't work for music because of the size of the driver and hard to pair in a lively living room
@@alexvikendi1768 I found a local retailer who lent me the kubes and kf92 to try. Hands down adding 2 subs gives a much balanced and punchier bass. Unless you are putting this in an enclosed room I’d 101% go with 2 subs. Good luck with the setup!
@@rohankakar2644 glad you found out =) but completely outside my budget 😅
I'm gonna keep looking, but I'm hesitant to switch unfortunately in passive , given juste the price of one kc62.
I have both, the kube 12 is much better. It has more output and dies as low but can hold it even at high volume where the kf92 stops
Hi Erin thanks for excellent comparison with the detail statistics, i m little confused, i have a small room 10x12 ft with 9 ft cealing already have two rel t5xs for music, want to add subs for movies hence t5xs not producing enough spl or effect during movies its excellent for music though, my room is small if i go with two kc62s i can place them to side walls or should i go with only one kc92. Please if you can guide a bit .. thanks you.
Kc62 for your room you sleep in and kf92 in the living room/theater room
Hi Erin, do you think the kf92 is comparable to SVS SB 2000 pro ?
I wonder why the KC62 is not designed to retain a more linear output in the lower frequency range at the lower volume when it can do that at higher volumes.
dont send the 62 back to kef send it to me to try out for a few years thanks
Could you please tell me whether KC 62, KF 92 or Kube 12b will compliment a R11 Meta setup? It’s a 17x15 feet room and I’ll be about 13-14 feet away from the unit. Thank you!
*Pedant warning* I'm on the KEF site and I see a KC92 but no KF92. Is there some secret model page I'm missing?
KF92 is discontinued and has been replaced by KC92
Hi Erin, My room is 30 sqm. I have a Klipsch Reference Premier 7.1.2 setup. Am looking for second sub woofer. I listen to music and watch movies. Between these two which one would you recommend?
A well detailed look. Appreciate that. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent video!
Thank you very much!
In a medium-large room, mainly music, one KC92 or dual KC62 better?
Alpha audio recommends going with 2 subs whenever you can. This reduces room issues. It should still give the same output volume, but perhaps not the same low end.
Before watching, the big one. Right? If you can fit it and afford it, the big one.
After spending a huge amount of money on my ls50 wireless 2 the best sub to match was the relT7x .. it's perfect 😃
Yeah pretty much a subwoofer that cannot do sub frequencies, cant be easier?
Thanks for that
Oh, by the picture i thought someone finally started selling modular spekers.
Best small subwoofer available in white...?? Alas I'm not allowed big black boxes in the living room..!
Great subs, but way overpriced which deletes everything they can do when compared with today's market.
What’s a small room😅
i can tell you were a bugs bunny fan😅🤣
will be good a IMD test for subwoofers?