Thank you for inviting us to a fruitful dialogue. I can feel your pastoral heart, Octavio, your love for your God's people, your neighbour and see your radical commitment to, not just the teaching of Jesus, also His example.
"Persons who are idolaters, blasphemers, liars, thieves, fornicators, exploiters, murderers, and the disobedient who are spiritually mature Christ-followers (?) should be welcomed and affirmed to serve in serve in every area of the church." This is the sort of statement you get if you remove the phrase "same-sex covental relationships" and substitute it with one of the other law breakers listed from the Ten Commandments to your position. Doesn't work, does it? Nor should it. Same-sex relationships are sin and prohibited by God. Just as murder, lying, stealing is listed as those who will not inherit eternal life, so are those who trangresses the Edenic definition of marriage as ordained by God: One man and one woman. There are no exceptions. One cannot be spiritually mature in Christ and not obey his commands. Jesus said, "Why do you say you love me and not do the things I tell you to do?" Remember, to the Woman and the well he told her to "sin no more." If it was sin before she knew Christ, it was sin after that, too. Gay and lesbians can come to Christ as they are, but they are implored not to remain as they are. They are redeemed and free from the yoke of slavery to sin. They will struggle, but they are not to return to what they were. A redeemed addict (a form of idolatry) is not permitted to happily return to their addiction. It is wrong because it is not good for them. Same-sex relationships is wrong because it is not good for them. One, they are disabusing another person for self-gratification. Even if that other person is consenting, it is still a misuse of a person created in the image of God. And, two, it is wrong it is a misuse of one's own purpose. We are to love God and enjoy Him forever, not His creatures. I am really, really sorry to see you abandon the authority of God's Word. You have taken a huge step away from the Truth to embrace cultural trends. I am so sorry to see this, Octavio. I do hope someone you trust will intervene and show you the error of your ways. I am praying for you.
Hey friend. Here is where I would start asking you the next question: 2. What is it that drew you to this perspective? What has the journey been like? I am genuinly curious. BTW, I hope you don't think I've "abandoned my faith" for encouraging Christians to dialogue, to listen to each other, and to sincerely get to know each other's perspective and stories
@OctavioMoss I have this perspective based on the authority of the Word: "All scripture is God-breathed." That being true, then it is authoritative, not suggestive. If it is not authoritative, then there is no basis for Truth. Everything is relative. I did not say that you have abandoned your faith, but that you have downgraded God's Word from absolute Truth to interpretative truth (note lower case). Once you open that perspective everything in scripture is open for personal application. You then adopt a "loose leaf" view of the Bible, removing whatever you don't like and inserting extra biblical material you do. I remember a conversation between Tony Campolo and Steve Brown just before they were to appear on the radio together on this very issue. Steve said to Tony, in his resounding bass voice, "Now, Tony, don't you go out there and say something is good when God has already said that it is bad." When pastors like yourself say that same-sex relationships are good, then you speak against the very thing that God has already declared is bad. Now, I expect you will agree with me that an older man should not marry a boy, right? I am speaking of that man/boy relationship that exists. I expect, too, that you would be against an older man marrying a 12 year old girl. If that is the case, then you just drew a line that you think is morally reprehensible. You are making a distinction in marriage based on some rule or law of what is acceptable and what is not. I draw the line as well, but the line I draw is based on the authority of the Word, not social mores or my own personal bias. If this kind of personal interpretation is allowed and encouraged, then anything goes. There will be no limits. As people are depraved and perverse, they will think up ways of doing all kinds of evil regarding marriage. Mark my word, Octavio, we will see folks getting married in threesomes or more plus holding more than one marriage at a time. Not only will society crumble under the weight of its own depravity, but economically it cannot sustain the financial burden this would incur with the demand for insurance and social security benefits for dependents of these multi-person unions. Finally, if same-sex marriage is sanctioned by the church, how then do we interpret scripture that bases our relationship to God has a marriage between a man and a woman? What value is that analogy? It can no longer apply as God proclaimed it. Of course, I encourage all churches to welcome the sexually broken - homosexual and heterosexual - of which we are all members. But, just as the Corinthian Church excommunicated a morally bankrupt heterosexual to live out his sin, so we must also keep the church from compromising its call to moral purity. There are standards which are absolute. They are Divine and immutable. I do hope we can keep up this conversation as I am deeply, deeply concerned for you. And, I really mean that, Octavio. You are gifted and could have a great influence on the church. I want to ensure that your influence is Biblically based and not necessarily based on popularity.
Hi Octavio. I wish to respond to Prompt 3, which says: "Qualified individuals in same sex covenantal relationships with pastoral gifts are welcomed and affirmed to serve pastoral roles at our church." I believe you've totally abandoned the Holy Scriptures here. 1 Timothy 3:2-5 explains: "Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, *the* *husband* *of* *one* *wife* , soberminded, self-controlled, respectable, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." As I've highlighted in boldface, a pastor or deacon, etc. must be a man/male married to one wife. There's also a Scripture that says the same thing specifically about deacons. This rule excludes lgbtq members as qualified candidates. The Scripture also specifies that an overseer must be beyond reproach. How can a gay male or female qualify as beyond reproach when the very word of God describes the practice of that lifestyle to be a sin, an abomination, and shameful? It says that no homosexual will inherit the kingdom of heaven. The will of God has been left out of your whole conversation in this video. As well, because of the Scriptures, a homosexual/same sex relationship can hardly be described as "covenantal." It isn't holy. This is a year-old video, so you might not come across this comment. But if you're seeing this, please share your thoughts. As of now, you seem more of a cultural champion than a Bible believer. Blessings and faith 🙏.
Iron sharpens iron…..Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Jesus rebukes me for my sin and my wrongful thinking, especially for the sins I do that he abhors. I cannot be a mature Christian and a serial murderer. I cannot engage in dialogue with other murderers and be effective.
Murderers? Pharisees? Who are these people you are comparing to murderers and pharisees? That is your first problem. You will never be able to have a good dialogue with others if you equate them with/to barbaric people, so barbaric indeed that you couldn't even have a conversation with? We need to change brother
@@OctavioMoss you did not comprehend what was written... 1, compared myself to the barbaric too and my sinful nature, I am to repent of my deliberate disobedience to God's commands 2, I cannot be a serial murderer and a mature Christian at the same time, they are opposing. what is this commandment? well it a very obvious one -Do not murder! i hear its a well known one....but maybe this is old testament and not relevant right?....or maybe there's so much lost in translation and so many interpretations over such a long period that the true God, who created the heavens and the earth was unable to maintain his word through time (which is a construct that existed when he created it back in eternity somewhere) right?....
Thank you for inviting us to a fruitful dialogue. I can feel your pastoral heart, Octavio, your love for your God's people, your neighbour and see your radical commitment to, not just the teaching of Jesus, also His example.
❤❤❤
"Persons who are idolaters, blasphemers, liars, thieves, fornicators, exploiters, murderers, and the disobedient who are spiritually mature Christ-followers (?) should be welcomed and affirmed to serve in serve in every area of the church."
This is the sort of statement you get if you remove the phrase "same-sex covental relationships" and substitute it with one of the other law breakers listed from the Ten Commandments to your position. Doesn't work, does it? Nor should it. Same-sex relationships are sin and prohibited by God. Just as murder, lying, stealing is listed as those who will not inherit eternal life, so are those who trangresses the Edenic definition of marriage as ordained by God: One man and one woman. There are no exceptions.
One cannot be spiritually mature in Christ and not obey his commands. Jesus said, "Why do you say you love me and not do the things I tell you to do?" Remember, to the Woman and the well he told her to "sin no more." If it was sin before she knew Christ, it was sin after that, too. Gay and lesbians can come to Christ as they are, but they are implored not to remain as they are. They are redeemed and free from the yoke of slavery to sin. They will struggle, but they are not to return to what they were.
A redeemed addict (a form of idolatry) is not permitted to happily return to their addiction. It is wrong because it is not good for them. Same-sex relationships is wrong because it is not good for them. One, they are disabusing another person for self-gratification. Even if that other person is consenting, it is still a misuse of a person created in the image of God. And, two, it is wrong it is a misuse of one's own purpose. We are to love God and enjoy Him forever, not His creatures.
I am really, really sorry to see you abandon the authority of God's Word. You have taken a huge step away from the Truth to embrace cultural trends. I am so sorry to see this, Octavio. I do hope someone you trust will intervene and show you the error of your ways. I am praying for you.
Hey friend. Here is where I would start asking you the next question: 2. What is it that drew you to this perspective? What has the journey been like? I am genuinly curious.
BTW, I hope you don't think I've "abandoned my faith" for encouraging Christians to dialogue, to listen to each other, and to sincerely get to know each other's perspective and stories
@OctavioMoss I have this perspective based on the authority of the Word: "All scripture is God-breathed." That being true, then it is authoritative, not suggestive. If it is not authoritative, then there is no basis for Truth. Everything is relative.
I did not say that you have abandoned your faith, but that you have downgraded God's Word from absolute Truth to interpretative truth (note lower case). Once you open that perspective everything in scripture is open for personal application. You then adopt a "loose leaf" view of the Bible, removing whatever you don't like and inserting extra biblical material you do.
I remember a conversation between Tony Campolo and Steve Brown just before they were to appear on the radio together on this very issue. Steve said to Tony, in his resounding bass voice, "Now, Tony, don't you go out there and say something is good when God has already said that it is bad." When pastors like yourself say that same-sex relationships are good, then you speak against the very thing that God has already declared is bad.
Now, I expect you will agree with me that an older man should not marry a boy, right? I am speaking of that man/boy relationship that exists. I expect, too, that you would be against an older man marrying a 12 year old girl. If that is the case, then you just drew a line that you think is morally reprehensible. You are making a distinction in marriage based on some rule or law of what is acceptable and what is not. I draw the line as well, but the line I draw is based on the authority of the Word, not social mores or my own personal bias.
If this kind of personal interpretation is allowed and encouraged, then anything goes. There will be no limits. As people are depraved and perverse, they will think up ways of doing all kinds of evil regarding marriage. Mark my word, Octavio, we will see folks getting married in threesomes or more plus holding more than one marriage at a time. Not only will society crumble under the weight of its own depravity, but economically it cannot sustain the financial burden this would incur with the demand for insurance and social security benefits for dependents of these multi-person unions.
Finally, if same-sex marriage is sanctioned by the church, how then do we interpret scripture that bases our relationship to God has a marriage between a man and a woman? What value is that analogy? It can no longer apply as God proclaimed it.
Of course, I encourage all churches to welcome the sexually broken - homosexual and heterosexual - of which we are all members. But, just as the Corinthian Church excommunicated a morally bankrupt heterosexual to live out his sin, so we must also keep the church from compromising its call to moral purity. There are standards which are absolute. They are Divine and immutable.
I do hope we can keep up this conversation as I am deeply, deeply concerned for you. And, I really mean that, Octavio. You are gifted and could have a great influence on the church. I want to ensure that your influence is Biblically based and not necessarily based on popularity.
And, then...there were crickets.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
@@TheCruiseDog thank you brother for standing on Gods word.
Hi Octavio. I wish to respond to Prompt 3, which says: "Qualified individuals in same sex covenantal relationships with pastoral gifts are welcomed and affirmed to serve pastoral roles at our church."
I believe you've totally abandoned the Holy Scriptures here.
1 Timothy 3:2-5 explains:
"Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, *the* *husband* *of* *one* *wife* , soberminded, self-controlled, respectable, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."
As I've highlighted in boldface, a pastor or deacon, etc. must be a man/male married to one wife. There's also a Scripture that says the same thing specifically about deacons. This rule excludes lgbtq members as qualified candidates. The Scripture also specifies that an overseer must be beyond reproach. How can a gay male or female qualify as beyond reproach when the very word of God describes the practice of that lifestyle to be a sin, an abomination, and shameful? It says that no homosexual will inherit the kingdom of heaven.
The will of God has been left out of your whole conversation in this video.
As well, because of the Scriptures, a homosexual/same sex relationship can hardly be described as "covenantal." It isn't holy.
This is a year-old video, so you might not come across this comment. But if you're seeing this, please share your thoughts. As of now, you seem more of a cultural champion than a Bible believer.
Blessings and faith 🙏.
I came to check on you buddy. I was hoping to see big sub figures
❤❤❤
A little disappointed? 😉😞
Iron sharpens iron…..Jesus rebuked the Pharisees. Jesus rebukes me for my sin and my wrongful thinking, especially for the sins I do that he abhors. I cannot be a mature Christian and a serial murderer. I cannot engage in dialogue with other murderers and be effective.
Murderers? Pharisees? Who are these people you are comparing to murderers and pharisees? That is your first problem. You will never be able to have a good dialogue with others if you equate them with/to barbaric people, so barbaric indeed that you couldn't even have a conversation with?
We need to change brother
@@OctavioMoss you did not comprehend what was written...
1, compared myself to the barbaric too and my sinful nature, I am to repent of my deliberate disobedience to God's commands
2, I cannot be a serial murderer and a mature Christian at the same time, they are opposing. what is this commandment? well it a very obvious one -Do not murder! i hear its a well known one....but maybe this is old testament and not relevant right?....or maybe there's so much lost in translation and so many interpretations over such a long period that the true God, who created the heavens and the earth was unable to maintain his word through time (which is a construct that existed when he created it back in eternity somewhere) right?....