Brother, I’ve really enjoyed your content. I deconstructed/deconverted from Christianity about 2 years ago when I reached a point where I could not harmonize my religious beliefs with a hardy epistemology. I since have spent a lot of time examining critical scholarship of the Bible, and I’ve learned to appreciate this work in a whole new light. I just want to say that since losing my faith, you might have the single most sound theology that I’ve come across from a Christian. I love that you take critical evaluation of the scriptures seriously and avoid dogmatic positions that have no foundation. I salute you.
Hey, I am honoured by such kind words. Having a new perspective on what the Bible really is and how it works has been fundamental for me. That and knowing more about the vast and different ways of being and following Jesus (which meant getting rid of what many ignorant and close minded people think being a Christian is). I hope you keep digging into the Christian faith. It goes as deep as it goes wide. Peace my friend
@@JesusSavesSouls I have yet to delete a comment in any of my videos...I might in the future but I have not done it so far....what happened? What did you say? Wanna post it again?
We also have to ask ourselves, were the Israelites a slave to anyone? Yes, they were slaves throughout the Bible to the law of sin, just like all humans, but were children of God due to Abraham’s covenant. Every human that exists is a slave to sin, which in the Bible is the true reason for death. In the New Testament, the new covenant makes it so we are no longer slaves to sin, through Jesus Christ our Lord, and gentiles can now join in. Leviticus 25:39-42- 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.“
That Leviticus passage applies only to Israelites, not to foreigners. Israelites had a higher value and status than foreigners, that was their ancient and tribal understanding. I am not sure what you are arguing for with your first paragraph...would you care to expand on that? Peace
I agree that the passage is strictly talking about Israelites, but I wanted to expand on this since you are looking at it strictly from the view of the writer, but we need to have the Lord give us understanding to view it from the view of God and why it was allowed in the scripture. For some they might mistakenly see it as they are better than everyone that is not an Israelite, even some Israelites might have that view. That is far from the truth, since if that was the case, the scripture would not include Leviticus 25:42, stating that Israelites themselves are indeed servants, but to the Lord. We are all slaves to sin, but Jews were the only ones in the Old Testament that were able to connect with God through their covenant and adhering to the Law, which gentiles( foreigners) didn’t know the law( Romans 2:14-15). I speak from my own experience, since I might not have been a physical slave, but I personally know what it means to be a slave, to the desires of this world, I was shackled to lust and all types of evil thoughts. I praise Jesus since he set me free and can do the same not just for Jews, but Gentiles as well. There is a new covenant under Jesus. When I look at passages anywhere in the Bible, I try to see how it ties into the main theme of the Bible. Which is we have all fallen and we can only be redeemed by a savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hello, Christian here. I move though provoking vids. Great job. On my side. It is my understanding that Morality in the Bible is inherently contextual.
Exodus 21:16 Anyone caught stealing a man gets the death penalty. Not stealing is in the Ten Commandments. The harmonization of the canonical Bible isn’t that difficult. I understand your point but to recognize the 66 book bible as moral authority isn’t hard to do either.
When you're writing the book, you will justify everything you do by your writing. After the Flood, Noah immediately makes 1/3 of his descendants bondsmen to the others, because the Israelites were already enslaving other Jewish slaves. The horrible sins of David towards Uriah weren't taken out on God's 'favorite' except by killing his bastard child with Bathsheba. (Which also counters the concept that children are sacred to God, yet again)
I still can't get past this and other problematic passeses in the Bible. Everytime I start believing that Jesus is the only way, his death for our sins, etc the old testament trips me up. I'm scared I'm going to hell because I can't be a Christian because of the Bible
look for christian explanations of passages and verses like this because this person is being disingenuous in there portrayal of what is happening here and not citing proper context i left another comment refuting his points but if you want to understand the bible more clearly watch bible studies and search for real christian explanations because there are many who will try to lead you astray by quoting out of context scripture and insinuating things like in this video that the bible condones sex slavery which is plainly false
@@conorcomiskey7269 but I have to believe the Bible. The NT doesn't make sense without the OT. Jesus also says we must do the will of the father. Jesus and Yahweh are supposed to be the same. God is supposed to be the same today as in the OT. But the OT God seems to contradict Jesus
Don't derail your argument with speculations such as claiming "to enjoy" is sex. This would equally imply that the Israelites had sex with livestock. Just stick to your facts. It makes a much stronger argument than your errant conjectures.
@@OctavioMoss That's good, that's good! I like you. You won't anger me, because I'm grounded. But, I'd point out that "to enjoy" meaning sex to you only illuminates your perversion. I wonder if you would be so critical of Muhammad and the Quran. I seem to remember a wife that was so young she played with dolls. Where is that criticism?
stop insinuating that “enjoy” means sex slavery it doesn’t the law prohibits any kind of sexual relations outside of marriage these slaves would most likely be female maid servants in the context of this passage. our mindset on slavery stems from plantation slaves in American who were in a completely different situation. the unfortunate fact of today is that some sort of forced labor is enforced in every country still today. In American prison system prisoner still do forced labor (slavery). In the ancient context of the Hebrews you’d have three options in dealing with opposing forces fight them and let them go this is terrible idea because they will come back again and kill you, next fight them and kill them all, or lastly fight them and take them in as slaves so they don’t have to die. what do you think happens during wars? do you think even in the last 20th century there weren’t forced labor camps in every country that were involved in the world wars it’s a ridiculous notion to believe what you’re spouting would even be close to possible especially not in a technologically unsophisticated society as the Israelites had.
My friend, these has nothing to do with slavery in the US. As mentioned in the video, you have to be careful to make distinctions between Israelite slaves and non-Israelite slaves. Both groups had very different rights and obligations. Most of what you have heard, including the Bible verses you know are talking about Israelite slaves and regulating their treatment. The verses I have cited ( and their are many more) specifically describe foreign slaves as PROPERTY, property you own in PERPETUITY (those are the exact words those verses use), property you can pass along to your children and their children's children. This has nothing to do with just forced labour or forced labour camps. These slaves were perpetual property.
"Enjoy" definitely means sex also. Hebrew soldiers are told they could keep the virgin girls for themselves and in Deuteronomy 21 verses 10 to 14 which describes how a soldier can "marry" a female war captive which he finds attractive. Is it reasonable to assume that a girl/woman would voluntarily marry a complete stranger (from a different culture, religion and language) who was responsible for destroying her home, killing her family and kidnapping her? Why do you feel attacked when someone is pointing something against nation of Israel? Reality is Isrealites/jews where not much better than surrounding nations. Here is something from rabinic talmund that you did not know - pure pedophilia: "If a grown-up man has had intercourse with a little girl less than three years old, or if a young boy less than nine years old has had intercourse with a grown woman, or if a woman has been injured by a stick and as a result her hymen has been ruptured, 'in each of these cases the woman is entitled to a ketubah of two hundred dinarim when she marries"
@ first of all i’m not a rabic Jew so I have little care for what the talmud has to say that was written in 3rd century nor does any rabic Jew accurately represent ancient Judaism being that they have no temple or sacrifices. second it’s very important to understand stand that rape is almost always punishable by death in the Law that’s why like you stated even your female slaves must be elevated to the position of wives which means there is no sex slavery permitted because the women is now longer a slave and would have all the legal rights of a wife which is a crazy high standard to be put in place during that time period being that most ancient cultures the standard was that if your town was over thrown you would be sold as a sex slave with no rights what so ever. so the fact that this was not the standard in israel is actually hugely important. knowing that context you can’t say that “enjoy” means anything close to rape which that word in hebrew doesn’t mean that ether, it’s most likely talking about female maid servants which is actually a very humane way of treating prisoners of war as opposed to them being left in there towns to be taken by salve traders(who will sell them as sex slaves) or starving to death
@@rockymtfilmcrew7908 You defensively engage in "relative morality" - arguing that because other cultures were worse, this practice was acceptable. You also totally sidesteped whether someone can truly consent to marriage with their captor. You did not address psychological trauma of being forced to marry complete stranger who killed your family. Saying young virgin girl being forced to marry their captor and have sex after a month of mourn is not rape is delusional. Also saying she is not a slave because she has some protections is also delusional. You also present a false dichotomy - suggesting the only alternatives were death or sex slavery, when there were other possible ways to treat captives. I do not see any justifications why for example there was no integration without forced marriage - allow them to join the community independently, let them work and establish their own lives, provide them protection without sexual exploitation. You are suggesting that moral standard was not same back then and today. Regarding talmund, you are ignoring it only because it is written later, and all of that inside talmund fell from the sky. If they where willing to kill children of other nations, capture young virgin girls forced into marriage/rape then seeing this about "pedophilia" is no surprise. Even if you argue that Israelites where "better" than other nations, they were still cruel tribe, period. And stop defending that. You probably feel attacked because you believe in bible inerrancy, univocality & inspiration. That is why you have this burden of proof you need to make.
my defense wasn’t that “other cultures are worse” the point is that bronze age cultures aren’t gonna be able to handle prisoners in the same way the modern west is able to (not that even with our economic ability we are able to avoid the horrible humanitarian issues of war) and i’m not arguing that the culture effects the objective moral standard we have (that only God can establish) but it does change the way certain concepts like marriage work. in the ancient Jewish cultural context marriage was almost always necessary for a woman to be able to support herself without becoming an indentured servant or a beggar on the street there wasn’t just jobs women were able to work outside of their house hold in fact most men and only men back then were laborers who worked in the field or on a fishing boat and got paid very little. In all the cultures in that region the father would be the one to give his daughter in marriage this does change the issue to something different than our western standard of how we view marriage being that women didn’t even normally choose who they married and the option of just integrating the people into the Jewish society as free citizens is outlandishly naïve the people that inhabited those areas that where conquered had the common practice of sacrificing babies and doing cult sex rituals in worshipping there gods which is actually the reason God states for them being dispossessed out of the land as a judgement on them, so them being assimilated into a ancient Jewish society with out them bringing in those detestable practices is just not something that would be able to happen without them losing their freedoms though i appreciate you being kind hearted and i really mean that you’re not looking at this from a logistical standpoint which is a factor to the moral issue. if integrating those people into the society will lead the whole society into debauchery and societal upheaval then it’s not right morally to include them into the society in a way that allows them to lead astray the nation
Actually, that passage in Deuteronomy isn't saying that the people of the city that make peace become slaves. Rather, this is talking about making the city and its people a vassal state of Israel, not slaves. Now the women and children after they lose, certainly do. The rest you're pretty much dead on about though. And I've never understood the apologists argument that the Bible simply regulates slavery, and does not condone it. Well by definition it condones it. But by the apologists own logic, America then simply regulated slavery too. And didn't condone it either. But oh no, they wouldn't argue that. Couldn't argue that. Even though it's the same situation. No nation in history ever commanded it's people own slaves. How could it? Babylon simply regulated slavery too. Just like israel. And with similar laws it turns out. Same goes for America. But the bible gets a pass, and everyone else is bad and immoral. And sadly, the apologists just don't see the hypocrisy of that.
How freeing it is to understand that you don’t have to “defend the Bible” but simply let those ancient people/writers say and be whoever they actually were, right? But where do you fall in terms of faith? How do you personally reconcile these stories about YHWH with the Creator of the Universe? I am genuinely curious. Peace brother
@@OctavioMoss I don't think faith, or lack of faith has any bearing on what the Bible says or doesn't say. It only complicates the conversation. And there is a TON of misinformation out there when it comes to this topic. Personal beliefs, or philosophical arguments about morality are separate conversations. Too often conflated into one in my opinion. I try and keep it more simple.
@@joy9072 I completely understand that, but does not mean that you have to believe that God have out people as prices to other people. Your faith in Christ does not require you to believe the former AND don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Peace to you my friend
In some cases the wisdom literature of the ancient Jews is borrowed from other civilizations. For instance the wisdom literature from the Book of Proverbs contains evidence of direct borrowing from Egyptians source call "The Instruction of Amenemope". Information like this presents the characters of the Bible as slavers with borrowed sacred text. Even worse, it boggles the mind when you realize that a formerly enslaved people miraculously freed by Moses, resorts to having chattel slaves of their own. They never once had a fear that God nor any other deity would visit 10 plagues of destruction on them.
It is a mix of borrowed, remixed, call back, and newly released sacred texts, yep. It’s so cool that you know about “the Instruction of Amenenope” But where do you fall in terms of faith? How do you personally reconcile these stories about YHWH with the Creator of the Universe? I am genuinely curious. Peace brother
@@OctavioMoss Well, I consider myself a formerly religious, non-believing skeptic. The term atheist would also apply. However, I still find religion fascinating; much the same way a scientist views their specimen. I have an interest in knowing where it came from, how it works and why people are susceptible.
@@OctavioMoss At this moment I view the Bible as a Hebrew Epic of sorts designed to inform the would-be Nation of Israel about their origin story, identity and future destiny per the God they adopted. (it borrows from Gilgamesh, Homer, Zoroastrianism, Plato, and more) The only vital component missing from the Hebrew's Nation Building aspirations was the "Promised Land" which the Canaanites already possessed. I many ways the identity they crac=ft for themselves is a "Noble Lie". -How Nations Make Up National Identities | NYT - The Interpreter. ruclips.net/video/F9qF6FvwrHI/видео.html
@@karo3529 And returning back to the land of Canaan after generations of being held in Babylon (to the east) the new Israelites may present new phenotypical difference to match their peculiar religion.
I think they point to the creator of the universe most religions point to, they just happen to do so from a very ancient Jewish way…you don’t necessarily have to agree with their take on everything…I personally don’t
Brother, I’ve really enjoyed your content.
I deconstructed/deconverted from Christianity about 2 years ago when I reached a point where I could not harmonize my religious beliefs with a hardy epistemology. I since have spent a lot of time examining critical scholarship of the Bible, and I’ve learned to appreciate this work in a whole new light.
I just want to say that since losing my faith, you might have the single most sound theology that I’ve come across from a Christian. I love that you take critical evaluation of the scriptures seriously and avoid dogmatic positions that have no foundation.
I salute you.
Hey, I am honoured by such kind words. Having a new perspective on what the Bible really is and how it works has been fundamental for me. That and knowing more about the vast and different ways of being and following Jesus (which meant getting rid of what many ignorant and close minded people think being a Christian is).
I hope you keep digging into the Christian faith. It goes as deep as it goes wide.
Peace my friend
only a demon will act like a slave merchant and Real State merchant for a group of people
So all leaders of the ancient world are demons then including your forefathers?
Sounds pretty demon-like to me...
@@OctavioMoss You like deleting comments because you don’t like the truth?
@@JesusSavesSouls I have yet to delete a comment in any of my videos...I might in the future but I have not done it so far....what happened? What did you say? Wanna post it again?
@@OctavioMoss I wrote a comment on this thread but it is gone and it wasn't even offensive but just truth.
We also have to ask ourselves, were the Israelites a slave to anyone? Yes, they were slaves throughout the Bible to the law of sin, just like all humans, but were children of God due to Abraham’s covenant. Every human that exists is a slave to sin, which in the Bible is the true reason for death. In the New Testament, the new covenant makes it so we are no longer slaves to sin, through Jesus Christ our Lord, and gentiles can now join in.
Leviticus 25:39-42- 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.“
IzrahellRacistBarbaric
ApartheidState 🤮
That Leviticus passage applies only to Israelites, not to foreigners. Israelites had a higher value and status than foreigners, that was their ancient and tribal understanding.
I am not sure what you are arguing for with your first paragraph...would you care to expand on that?
Peace
I agree that the passage is strictly talking about Israelites, but I wanted to expand on this since you are looking at it strictly from the view of the writer, but we need to have the Lord give us understanding to view it from the view of God and why it was allowed in the scripture.
For some they might mistakenly see it as they are better than everyone that is not an Israelite, even some Israelites might have that view. That is far from the truth, since if that was the case, the scripture would not include Leviticus 25:42, stating that Israelites themselves are indeed servants, but to the Lord. We are all slaves to sin, but Jews were the only ones in the Old Testament that were able to connect with God through their covenant and adhering to the Law, which gentiles( foreigners) didn’t know the law( Romans 2:14-15).
I speak from my own experience, since I might not have been a physical slave, but I personally know what it means to be a slave, to the desires of this world, I was shackled to lust and all types of evil thoughts. I praise Jesus since he set me free and can do the same not just for Jews, but Gentiles as well. There is a new covenant under Jesus. When I look at passages anywhere in the Bible, I try to see how it ties into the main theme of the Bible. Which is we have all fallen and we can only be redeemed by a savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hello, Christian here. I move though provoking vids. Great job.
On my side. It is my understanding that Morality in the Bible is inherently contextual.
"Gifted" 😂
Exodus 21:16
Anyone caught stealing a man gets the death penalty. Not stealing is in the Ten Commandments. The harmonization of the canonical Bible isn’t that difficult. I understand your point but to recognize the 66 book bible as moral authority isn’t hard to do either.
When you're writing the book, you will justify everything you do by your writing. After the Flood, Noah immediately makes 1/3 of his descendants bondsmen to the others, because the Israelites were already enslaving other Jewish slaves. The horrible sins of David towards Uriah weren't taken out on God's 'favorite' except by killing his bastard child with Bathsheba. (Which also counters the concept that children are sacred to God, yet again)
I still can't get past this and other problematic passeses in the Bible. Everytime I start believing that Jesus is the only way, his death for our sins, etc the old testament trips me up. I'm scared I'm going to hell because I can't be a Christian because of the Bible
U don’t have to be a Christian, just follow Jesus and build a relationship
U don’t have to be a Christian, just follow Jesus and build a relationship
look for christian explanations of passages and verses like this because this person is being disingenuous in there portrayal of what is happening here and not citing proper context i left another comment refuting his points but if you want to understand the bible more clearly watch bible studies and search for real christian explanations because there are many who will try to lead you astray by quoting out of context scripture and insinuating things like in this video that the bible condones sex slavery which is plainly false
@@conorcomiskey7269 but I have to believe the Bible. The NT doesn't make sense without the OT. Jesus also says we must do the will of the father. Jesus and Yahweh are supposed to be the same. God is supposed to be the same today as in the OT. But the OT God seems to contradict Jesus
@rockymtfilmcrew7908 thanks. I'm praying for understanding and belief
what are the verses of God gifting slaves, including children, to “enjoy” I can’t seem to find it
never mind it was in the vid
what translation says enjoy?
NLT, ESV, etc
just remember that enjoy can’t mean sex slavery because sex outside of the context of marriage was prohibited in the law
Don't derail your argument with speculations such as claiming "to enjoy" is sex. This would equally imply that the Israelites had sex with livestock. Just stick to your facts. It makes a much stronger argument than your errant conjectures.
wow...how angry something I did not say got you , ha?
I'm I reading "anger" in you tone right? I would hate to be wrong on that, hehe
@@OctavioMoss An opinion of a relative nobody on RUclips CANNOT anger me, but way to self aggrandize! You just aren't that important. Realize it.
@@xdereksmithx I get that..But...how many subs would I need to anger you?
@@OctavioMoss That's good, that's good! I like you. You won't anger me, because I'm grounded. But, I'd point out that "to enjoy" meaning sex to you only illuminates your perversion. I wonder if you would be so critical of Muhammad and the Quran. I seem to remember a wife that was so young she played with dolls. Where is that criticism?
stop insinuating that “enjoy” means sex slavery it doesn’t the law prohibits any kind of sexual relations outside of marriage these slaves would most likely be female maid servants in the context of this passage. our mindset on slavery stems from plantation slaves in American who were in a completely different situation. the unfortunate fact of today is that some sort of forced labor is enforced in every country still today. In American prison system prisoner still do forced labor (slavery). In the ancient context of the Hebrews you’d have three options in dealing with opposing forces fight them and let them go this is terrible idea because they will come back again and kill you, next fight them and kill them all, or lastly fight them and take them in as slaves so they don’t have to die. what do you think happens during wars? do you think even in the last 20th century there weren’t forced labor camps in every country that were involved in the world wars it’s a ridiculous notion to believe what you’re spouting would even be close to possible especially not in a technologically unsophisticated society as the Israelites had.
My friend, these has nothing to do with slavery in the US.
As mentioned in the video, you have to be careful to make distinctions between Israelite slaves and non-Israelite slaves. Both groups had very different rights and obligations. Most of what you have heard, including the Bible verses you know are talking about Israelite slaves and regulating their treatment.
The verses I have cited ( and their are many more) specifically describe foreign slaves as PROPERTY, property you own in PERPETUITY (those are the exact words those verses use), property you can pass along to your children and their children's children. This has nothing to do with just forced labour or forced labour camps. These slaves were perpetual property.
"Enjoy" definitely means sex also. Hebrew soldiers are told they could keep the virgin girls for themselves and in Deuteronomy 21 verses 10 to 14 which describes how a soldier can "marry" a female war captive which he finds attractive. Is it reasonable to assume that a girl/woman would voluntarily marry a complete stranger (from a different culture, religion and language) who was responsible for destroying her home, killing her family and kidnapping her? Why do you feel attacked when someone is pointing something against nation of Israel? Reality is Isrealites/jews where not much better than surrounding nations. Here is something from rabinic talmund that you did not know - pure pedophilia: "If a grown-up man has had intercourse with a little girl less than three years old, or if a young boy less than nine years old has had intercourse with a grown woman, or if a woman has been injured by a stick and as a result her hymen has been ruptured, 'in each of these cases the woman is entitled to a ketubah of two hundred dinarim when she marries"
@ first of all i’m not a rabic Jew so I have little care for what the talmud has to say that was written in 3rd century nor does any rabic Jew accurately represent ancient Judaism being that they have no temple or sacrifices. second it’s very important to understand stand that rape is almost always punishable by death in the Law that’s why like you stated even your female slaves must be elevated to the position of wives which means there is no sex slavery permitted because the women is now longer a slave and would have all the legal rights of a wife which is a crazy high standard to be put in place during that time period being that most ancient cultures the standard was that if your town was over thrown you would be sold as a sex slave with no rights what so ever. so the fact that this was not the standard in israel is actually hugely important. knowing that context you can’t say that “enjoy” means anything close to rape which that word in hebrew doesn’t mean that ether, it’s most likely talking about female maid servants which is actually a very humane way of treating prisoners of war as opposed to them being left in there towns to be taken by salve traders(who will sell them as sex slaves) or starving to death
@@rockymtfilmcrew7908 You defensively engage in "relative morality" - arguing that because other cultures were worse, this practice was acceptable. You also totally sidesteped whether someone can truly consent to marriage with their captor. You did not address psychological trauma of being forced to marry complete stranger who killed your family. Saying young virgin girl being forced to marry their captor and have sex after a month of mourn is not rape is delusional. Also saying she is not a slave because she has some protections is also delusional. You also present a false dichotomy - suggesting the only alternatives were death or sex slavery, when there were other possible ways to treat captives. I do not see any justifications why for example there was no integration without forced marriage - allow them to join the community independently, let them work and establish their own lives, provide them protection without sexual exploitation. You are suggesting that moral standard was not same back then and today. Regarding talmund, you are ignoring it only because it is written later, and all of that inside talmund fell from the sky. If they where willing to kill children of other nations, capture young virgin girls forced into marriage/rape then seeing this about "pedophilia" is no surprise. Even if you argue that Israelites where "better" than other nations, they were still cruel tribe, period. And stop defending that. You probably feel attacked because you believe in bible inerrancy, univocality & inspiration. That is why you have this burden of proof you need to make.
my defense wasn’t that “other cultures are worse” the point is that bronze age cultures aren’t gonna be able to handle prisoners in the same way the modern west is able to (not that even with our economic ability we are able to avoid the horrible humanitarian issues of war) and i’m not arguing that the culture effects the objective moral standard we have (that only God can establish) but it does change the way certain concepts like marriage work. in the ancient Jewish cultural context marriage was almost always necessary for a woman to be able to support herself without becoming an indentured servant or a beggar on the street there wasn’t just jobs women were able to work outside of their house hold in fact most men and only men back then were laborers who worked in the field or on a fishing boat and got paid very little. In all the cultures in that region the father would be the one to give his daughter in marriage this does change the issue to something different than our western standard of how we view marriage being that women didn’t even normally choose who they married and the option of just integrating the people into the Jewish society as free citizens is outlandishly naïve the people that inhabited those areas that where conquered had the common practice of sacrificing babies and doing cult sex rituals in worshipping there gods which is actually the reason God states for them being dispossessed out of the land as a judgement on them, so them being assimilated into a ancient Jewish society with out them bringing in those detestable practices is just not something that would be able to happen without them losing their freedoms
though i appreciate you being kind hearted and i really mean that you’re not looking at this from a logistical standpoint which is a factor to the moral issue. if integrating those people into the society will lead the whole society into debauchery and societal upheaval then it’s not right morally to include them into the society in a way that allows them to lead astray the nation
Actually, that passage in Deuteronomy isn't saying that the people of the city that make peace become slaves. Rather, this is talking about making the city and its people a vassal state of Israel, not slaves. Now the women and children after they lose, certainly do. The rest you're pretty much dead on about though.
And I've never understood the apologists argument that the Bible simply regulates slavery, and does not condone it. Well by definition it condones it. But by the apologists own logic, America then simply regulated slavery too. And didn't condone it either. But oh no, they wouldn't argue that. Couldn't argue that. Even though it's the same situation. No nation in history ever commanded it's people own slaves. How could it? Babylon simply regulated slavery too. Just like israel. And with similar laws it turns out. Same goes for America. But the bible gets a pass, and everyone else is bad and immoral. And sadly, the apologists just don't see the hypocrisy of that.
How freeing it is to understand that you don’t have to “defend the Bible” but simply let those ancient people/writers say and be whoever they actually were, right?
But where do you fall in terms of faith? How do you personally reconcile these stories about YHWH with the Creator of the Universe? I am genuinely curious.
Peace brother
@@OctavioMoss I don't think faith, or lack of faith has any bearing on what the Bible says or doesn't say. It only complicates the conversation. And there is a TON of misinformation out there when it comes to this topic. Personal beliefs, or philosophical arguments about morality are separate conversations. Too often conflated into one in my opinion. I try and keep it more simple.
@@nickbrasing8786 Fair... I understand where you are coming from
God is in control. We must have faith in him and what he allows. Praise Jesus.
how do you "...have faith in what he allows"( in this case slavery) ?
God gave his Son Jesus to forgive my sins so I love him and have faith in him.
@@joy9072 I completely understand that, but does not mean that you have to believe that God have out people as prices to other people. Your faith in Christ does not require you to believe the former AND don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Peace to you my friend
In some cases the wisdom literature of the ancient Jews is borrowed from other civilizations. For instance the wisdom literature from the Book of Proverbs contains evidence of direct borrowing from Egyptians source call "The Instruction of Amenemope". Information like this presents the characters of the Bible as slavers with borrowed sacred text. Even worse, it boggles the mind when you realize that a formerly enslaved people miraculously freed by Moses, resorts to having chattel slaves of their own. They never once had a fear that God nor any other deity would visit 10 plagues of destruction on them.
It is a mix of borrowed, remixed, call back, and newly released sacred texts, yep. It’s so cool that you know about “the Instruction of Amenenope”
But where do you fall in terms of faith? How do you personally reconcile these stories about YHWH with the Creator of the Universe? I am genuinely curious.
Peace brother
@@OctavioMoss Well, I consider myself a formerly religious, non-believing skeptic. The term atheist would also apply. However, I still find religion fascinating; much the same way a scientist views their specimen. I have an interest in knowing where it came from, how it works and why people are susceptible.
@@OctavioMoss At this moment I view the Bible as a Hebrew Epic of sorts designed to inform the would-be Nation of Israel about their origin story, identity and future destiny per the God they adopted. (it borrows from Gilgamesh, Homer, Zoroastrianism, Plato, and more) The only vital component missing from the Hebrew's Nation Building aspirations was the "Promised Land" which the Canaanites already possessed. I many ways the identity they crac=ft for themselves is a "Noble Lie".
-How Nations Make Up National Identities | NYT - The Interpreter. ruclips.net/video/F9qF6FvwrHI/видео.html
The Israelites are Cannanites who were Egyptians.
@@karo3529 And returning back to the land of Canaan after generations of being held in Babylon (to the east) the new Israelites may present new phenotypical difference to match their peculiar religion.
That god is unworthy. Its a good thing its also imaginary.
I think they point to the creator of the universe most religions point to, they just happen to do so from a very ancient Jewish way…you don’t necessarily have to agree with their take on everything…I personally don’t