I spend hours a day on YT, but no one earns my loyalty more than GearSkeptic. It's nearly midnight here and I'm tired as a dog, but god damn I'll always stay up for this guy's videos.
@@GearSkeptic It is quite funny reading that comment, but you know what? Couple of weeks ago when I was finishing 250km hike on New Zealand , what was I doing until late at night in a hut cracking in the wind? Watching video about filtering water from GearSceptic. :D. I just find it so interesting and that you really take into account nearly all options. Thanks a lot and I can't wait to see it in the wind. After that I will finally hopefully make a decision about my new cooker as I am still using my Primus Omnilite TI which is super cheap to run but rather bulky and quite tricky to operate.
OMG, I have to wait until Fall to see the wind results? You’re Killin Me Smalls! Yet another great video, excellent job! I guess I’ll have to wait for Part 5. It might be good to show a cost comparison of each option.
Though I'm bummed we have to wait so long for the wind tests, his mental state in this video leads me to believe maybe some time away from the carbon monoxide will do@@GearSkeptic well.
It’s in the works. Had some significant delays, equipment failure that was tough to identify, then forced re-testing of a lot of my data. But, I’m back on track now.
This series makes my inner gear geek go into full thrill mode. The testing methodology was excellent at the get-go in episode 1, and this episode's double-check that demonstrated near-perfect adherence to the margin of error was a "wow" moment I usually can't offer a RUclipsr. Cool! Awesome work GearSkeptic! (SUPER curious about the with-wind results comparing non-hx to hx in the future but this is a thrill for another day).
Dragging in after a long day at work...notification of a new GearSkeptic video produced a rush of endorphins that brought me back to the land of the living.......Thanks a million for another great video ....much appreciation...!!!!
I have tried the Petrel/Windmaster option and it starts and heats just fine in 20 mph+ winds. Very much looking forward to how it does in terms of fuel efficiency when you add wind. Thank you for the great work you are doing!
I had personally been trying to do comparison tests before I came across your channel. You've saved me a lot of time. Your tests are also way more precise than my own. Much appreciated!
I cannot express the level of gratitude and appreciation I have for your content! The scientific comparisons and breakdowns are invaluable. You're amazing!
Very interesting. I decided to test out your theory on the burner to pot gap using the Petrel and Soto Windmaster. With the windmaster legs in the pot slots I boiled 500g of water in 5mins 10 using 6.5g of gas. With the pot sat directly on top of the legs it boiled 40 secs faster and used on average 1.0g less per boil. Start temperature, burner level and conditions were kept the same. I do like the Petrel and Windmaster combo
Awesome stuff as usual. Former ultralight zealot here. In recent years i find myself using more and more fuel, especially if im with my wife. If im in the high country, I am known to enjoy a hot shower every few days. So I bring a large hx pot (1.5l) and dump it into a 3l bladder and its enough for my wife and I to wash ourselves. We also do at least 2 cups of instant coffee or tea in the am and maybe a warm up cup of chicken noodle before dinner. Very useful after a long hard, probably wet day to get some salt and heat down the gullet. I'm ambivalent to breakfast and lunch, usually one or the other preferring to eat small things more frequently then a banger hot dinner, many times with fish and a (gasp) frying pan. Desert cooking needs are about half of my high country needs. Cold bath, less food. For a guy like me I've switched to HX pots as they are great for high use people like me. If im going ultra ultra light ill bring my tiny ti pot and a small cannister and it will last me up to 5 days. If im melting snow, white gas is the is the only solution. Omnilite ti is the one for me. Alas, even amongs an army of me, I have no less than 6 different systems depending on the trip. They all have thier pluses and minuses.
Excellent as usual. I had been suspecting that the HX pots weren’t worth the additional weight, but hadn’t thought about whether they might be more worthwhile to larger volume users. Maybe they will redeem themselves a little when wind comes back into the picture. Can’t wait. Thanks again for your diligence.
Thanks for awesome analysis. I also use Soto Windmaster triflex with Petrel. Here I learned that what I thought was the optimal small stove gap is an efficiency penalty. But in wind? Having the stove head tucked into the HE cavity surely helps some? Even if the wind blows the close flame off the pot, the flame must pass through the HE fins. I look forward to your wind testing. Here's an idea: in calm conditions, do NOT tuck the stove support arms into the Petrel channels, to increase the stove-pot gap, boosting efficiency. In wind, go ahead and tuck it close. Maybe I can modify the Petrel's channels to still lock the stove on, but not place the burner so close to the bottom of the pot. I also learned that my preference for HE pots is entirely based on what amount to thermodynamic aesthetics and doesn't actually save me any weight, for my typical use cases. At least in no wind.
I was anxiously waiting for this one! I ended up going with the Soto Windmaster + FireMaple Petrel for my PCT section hike thanks to FlatCat Gear's testing. I absolutely expect windy and cold conditions, which make the BRS worthless.
It’ll be interesting to see how HX systems compare to conventional pots WITH windscreens in moving air, from both a performance and weight efficiency standpoint.
@@GearSkeptic It's also worth taking into account simplicity. Windscreens are fiddly, and it's an extra thing to buy and carry. I already had a Soto Windmaster, so adding just an $18 HX pot for a full wind resistant system and not having to fiddle with anything else is quite ideal.
Always great to see another video. Ive see people shove a BRS in the fins on the Stash so I'd be curious to know how that would change things versus the Petrel and a BRS. Also you've got me curious to see you do testing on the theory of burner height too. Something like ripping the wings off a BRS and the using an adjustable lab stand to change the height of the pot over the BRS. Maybe with the Stash, Petrel, Toaks 550, and the 118. As always though great work!
That is the best video series about stove efficiency ever. I understand better now the relation between input and output. If I simplify the greater your outputs are the greater your input needs to be in order to raise the temperature of your water. I tested the system on Mont Logan. Usually everybody use liquid stoves, because of the cold temperature and the limitation of the canister stove in those conditions (the gaz in the canister stay liquid and cannot vaporized because of the cold), BUT if you could keep the canister warm enough you could technically use a canister stove. Lot of people tried the copper strip to improve the use of canister in cold, we simply trade the tent for quinzy (snow caves). Inside a quinzy the temperature is around 0'C to -5'C. Which means that a canister stove works without any issues. Doing that we cut half the volume and half the weight compare using a liquid stove like everybody else. This winter I am heading to a 60 day ski traverse on the Hudson Bay, in Canada. We don't want to take the bet of building an igloo every night in order to use a canister stover... So we are bring the good old tent and liquid stove. After watching your serie of videos I was wondering how we could improve our system in order to save fuel ? Because the same principals will apply, the more we protect our system form the output the less input we will need. Thomas Ulrich created a system which is based on the first polar expeditions. Here is the link www.thomasulrich.com/en/polar-shop/stove.html The principal is simple, insulating the pot from the outside temperature to minimised the lost while heating up the water. A system used by Nansen on his polar expeditions. backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/vintage-stove-pot-design-for-frigid-temperatures/ With Ulrich system we can technically save 1/3 of the fuel compare to normal system (These days, pretty much everybody use MSR XGK stove, on polar expedition). But here is my question... (sorry that was a long introduction for a short question). Has the XGK is a really powerful stove that cannot be dimmed down. Would it be possible, with Ulrich system or something similare, to used a less powerful (or more adjustable) stove like the MSR dragonfly in order to save even more fuel ? Long polar expeditions (40 to 70 days) are using a lot of fuel and it would be awesome if we could use the results of your research to create an ultralight system for those adventures. p.s. a Part 5 on stove efficiency about the impact of the cold would be great (like real cold 0F to -20F at least). Thanks for your work.
I have begun collecting liquid fuel stoves, and alcohol stoves so that I can someday test those also for comparison to canister stoves. It will probably take me a long time to get through all those tests, though.
@@GearSkeptic I quick and dirty test, because you already have all that data with the same stoves and pot/bowl, would be to use the Nansen system (which is pretty much just a super big pot flip upside down over the whole system, somekind of a windscreen with a closed top. It is creating a warm/hot environnement and could potentially allow us to use the low flame, even with strong wind, and cold temperature. If the results are positive, I would be welling to try the system with diffrent liquid stove on my expedition and we could compare data.
Thanks as always for your hard and careful work put into these. Regarding the theory that larger burners to pot gaps may be more efficient. This could be tested with the Petrel by trying both ways, with the stove inset in the slots, compared against the stove arms holding the outer flux ring. Absolute water temperature wouldn't matter, as only delta g/boil is of interest. The results could also always be easily converted to any water temperature using specific heat. Normal stove on flat bottom pots feature narrower gaps, which might be a clue that narrow gaps aren't inherently penalizing. On the other hand, the flux rings could choke out air fuel when hot, necessitating a larger gap compared to a flat bottom pot that these stoves are typically designed for. There may be a trade off at play with Hx pots: narrower gap more effective in wind, taller gap without. I used a Stash pot on a pocket rocket deluxe all season in '23 (~ 30 days) and in wind, a narrower gap seems like it would work better just judging by the flame contact with the pot bottom.
@@GearSkeptic It's hiking season! I fully understand your packing up the tools. Thanks again. I've posted my thoughts and technical analysis over on Backpacking Light
doing the Lord's work lol, well done. pretty sure RUclips sent me here after watching a video where a guy used a Soto Amicus and went through 2 canisters and into a 3rd while his partner was still on their first canister using a Jetboil Minimo. These setups really seem to shine over long-haul scenarios where the efficiency really pays off. Anyway, thanks for sharing!
Thank you for being so thorough and scientific once again! I do have both Toaks/BRS and Stash pot/Windmaster system, I keep going to Stash pot/Windmaster. Granted it doesn’t win on weight, but I have burnt my fingers and spilled the Toaks cup once too many on windy days 😅
I have a BRS+750ml pot for my day-pack setup for occasional or emergency use. I have a JetBoil for planned trips for regular use. Since I have both ends of this spectrum I’m thankful you did all this work! You’ve made me realize I should carry my lightweight windscreen with my BRA setup and could use it on short trips. You’ve also helped me feel a bit better about the added initial cost of the JetBoil! Thanks again for this series!
Appreciate the actual use of the scientific method for gear. Thanks chief! Suggested topics: double wall vs single wall tent heat retention. Also quilts vs sleeping bags in heat loss reality.
10 месяцев назад+1
When I looked at the question of which boiler setup to buy for solo and eventually gave up and bought the Stash as a nicely integrated system. I am quite happy with the choice! I mostly use it in the tent vestibule, so wind isn't a huge problem. But a wind screen might help for lunch. I think it's a worthwhile trade-off for the boil time, but to each their own. Great test!
Cant wait to see a future iteration where the reactor might shine, this beeing low temperatures, mountaneering and a little snow melting scenarios. Complication would be that we start going into the realm of remote and inverted canister systems as well... good luck and as aways thank you for the amazing content!
The old MSR heat exchanger... Memories... That "boat anchor" is really good with one pot. It was designed for use with that one pot for the purpose of melting snow and ice into drinkable water, which takes huge amounts of fuel. It was typically used with a 1.5-2 liter pot, with an MSR XGK or XGK II stove. These stoves burn anything from white gas to kerosine to diesel fuel. They are very loud, sounding like a jet engine throttled up during takeoff! Back in the late 80s early 90s, that was the most efficient way bar-none of making water from snow and ice. The weight of it made it something only used for situations that required a lot of water from snow and ice. Not surprised whatsoever that it doesn't fare well when compared to more modern designs...
Given your results, the new Fire Maple G2 (750ml) pot should outperform the Petrel G3 since it is wider. If the Petrel does as well in your wind test as i expect, you might consider testing the G2 pot.
And without the science, my dad insists we should bring a jet boil for larger groups- clearly there is something to that! thanks for the great video! Looking forward to wind testing!
Your observation about distance of burner from pot and its effect on efficiency is interesting. You have likely noted that Fire Maple has paired their newer Hornet II (non-regulated) stove with their Petrel pot. The distance between the burner and the pot is easily twice as far as that between the Soto with triplex pot supports. I have to wonder what difference that distance will make in efficiency. You might come close to replicating by not inserting the pot supports of the Soto into the grooves of the Petrel pot bottom. I bought the Hornet II and Petrel pot as well as one of the FlatCatGear windscreens made to fit the Hornet II stoves. It is ingenious but simple and lightweight. I haven’t tested it yet as a system in windy conditions but anticipate, based upon Jon’s tests for the effects of wind on fuel consumption, that it will be a very efficient solution in real world conditions which very often include some wind. My goal is to find the lightest but very efficient stove/pot system that will allow me to extend a single fuel canister over a period of about five to six days while heating water at least twice per day for breakfast and supper. Too, for a very few additional ounces on my back, I will accept that weight penalty to realize the savings in cost through a reduction in grams per heating event of my water. For me, speed is not a factor as long as I can achieve my goal of adequately heated water inside of about 6 minutes or so. I apply that same metric to heating with alcohol stoves too. I do think we viewers will be “blown away” 😊 by the degree of efficiency of an HX pot with more protected fins, such as the Petrel or the kettle, over a pot such as the Stash with a more open base, especially when combined with a nested stove such as the Soto Windmaster with the triplex pot support . See you in the Fall.
Undoubtedly my favorite review chanel. Always my RUclips favorite notification! You are quite literally one of my go to's when hiking. I love the basic and yet scientific approach taken to our real world struggles and frustrations on the trail. I know quality doesn't come quickly but for all our sakes on the next review, hurry every chance you get.!!!!!!
Thanks very much! That means a great deal. I’m always working on some part of one of several possible upcoming projects. Stupid real life has a way of interfering, though… 😏
Another great video. In a future video, I'd like to see a comparison between heat exchangers and tight windscreens which redirect the exhaust around the outside of the pot (giving an extra opportunity to capture the heat - acting like a secondary heat exchanger of sorts), and compared to kelly kettles which do the same but on the inside of the pot - and of course combinations of heat exchangers with the windscreens.
Hey, would it be possible to add the Firemaple G2 Petrel 750ml pot? It's 22g heavier, but I really prefer slightly bigger pots. Thanks for the great videos!
Another great video, I appreciate all the work. I think the MSR heat exchanger ring is more aimed at liquid fuelled stoves like the whisper light or dragonfly with their wider flames. I would love to see a canister stove with a wider flame compared as well such as the Optimus Crux. Perhaps they benefit from a heat exchanger more than a narrower flame. Of course the HE pot can’t be too small or the flame may hit the wrong part of the HE. The cooling effects of wind on the pot will also be compounded by any decrease in temperature. I think that consideration is also easy to forget when we are laser focused on efficiency in static temperature wind comparisons. Tiny variables affect performance, sure but they are insignificant compared to real world variables. I work 4 seasons in the wilderness and often make a coffee, porridge or soup on a cold day. I dislike the waste of canister stoves and so rarely use them but I have often thought there are many weaknesses people forget, especially in cold weather. Larger fuel tanks have more fuel mass when new and so if kept warm take longer to lose their heat and fuel pressure. Unfortunately they also remain as a “partial” canister longer. To make sure I always have fuel I would carry two canisters so I could run one completely empty before using the next. On a camping trip it’s easy to measure and pay close attention but not so much when its part of a work kit. That’s obviously more practical with smaller sized canisters.
I have been using the Fire Maple XT1.8L kettle with the Zen pot stand with alcohol burners for the last year. It is a good combination because the prongs on the pot stand fit inside the heat exchanger ring making it wind resistant and stable. There is no flame spill around the edge of kettle at all. The Zen pot stand has adjustable levels for burners such as the Trangia, Evernew Titanium and Toaks Siphon making it easy to find the “sweet spot” for various alcohol burners.
You could test the flame gap theory with the Petrel. Run it with the pot supports in the slots and then with it not in the slots. Everything remains the same, except the gap.
Love it!!! Can’t wait for the wind results in the fall. In the meantime, maybe a video experimenting with distance between burner head & pot. Another idea would be to compare different brands of fuel for burn temperature and if the air/ fuel mixture of different stoves affects the burn temp. Just thinking out loud. Regardless, I’ll watch whatever you produce!! Thank you very much all you do.
Wow. Amazing data capture. I recently bought the Petzel to test with my super efficient DIY alcohol burners. I won't do anything close to your rigor. But hopefully my tests will help determine if the Petzel is a good option for alcohol burners. Video in a few days. TomLovesDIY
I have an optimus terra HE pot .9 liter. When paired with a MSR pocket rocket deluxe it boils 2 cups of water in around 1.5 minutes at medium flame. My toaks 750ml on the same stove with low or medium flame taked 3.5 - 4 minutes to boil. On a recent 14 day backpacking trip I carried the Optimus terra he pot for the first week when I was cooking for 2. During the second week I carried a MSR Talon 1 liter pot (titanium and significantly lighter) and cooked for one. I found that when I was hungry and preparing meals (I cook morning and evening) the time difference was notable and I much preferred the quicker boil. Less trying to think of something to do while I waited for water to boil. Also less boiled over pots because I started something during the boil and the pot would beat me. I much preferred the HE pot and faster boil times even with a 4oz - 6oz. penalty. It seems that the Optimus HE pot over the MSR pocket rocket deluxe hits a sweet spot. Since it has no slots for the legs there is a greater burner to pot distance which might make it considerably more efficient. In all my unscientific use of the system I much prefer it to any other pot combination including my toaks & bsr combination. I found that when you have hiked in the rain or endured cool temperatures during the day getting a warm meal faster makes a huge psychological difference. Incidentally I read one review comparing stove systems that found the best combination was an MSR pocket rocked deluxe stove with an oilcamp HX 1 liter pot. Beating out the jetboil in the tests for speed and efficiency. I am planning a through hike next year and am trying to decide on my stove system. I like the HE pot for speed more than efficiency. I have just purchased the Petrel pot to see if I like that in combination with the MSR pocket rocket deluxe as well. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.
Great review. I just received the Petrel and I did quick tests with brs300 and pocket rocket 2, and I had 4gr for 500gr water. Also they ship a set where they have Hornet stove which has pretty high distance to the pot. So I think stove choice is making a difference for Petrel.
I'm using an Olicamp XTS with a Trangia which has a diy simmer ring made from the top section of a soda can. Pot is held up by a two piece punched titanium sheet material that interlocks to work also as a windscreen. I have the canisters and a brs 3000 stove but I get the sense that with the yellow Heet and the heat exchanger along with the simmer ring I'm saving money. Hoping when I have a few minutes I could crunch the numbers to check. I'll have to run through this video a second time to catch those numbers. I appreciate the informative work you're doing!
It is fall! I say again, it is fall! We all want to see wind tests. On the Petrel maybe you can do a test with the stand on the bottom of the heat ex changer (not in the intended slots) to increase the distance from the burner? Thanks for nerding out! 😊
Something that I am curious about: how much CO (carbonmonoxide) do these different hx systems produce. And is there a correlation with efficiency and amount of CO produced? My hx kettle (same kettle as you tested) always trips my CO alarm in my camper and the MSR reactor is notorious for producing lots op CO which makes these stoves more dangerous inside tents
I enjoyed this video as I’ve been looking into heat exchanger pots and stove combos in the future I’d love to see a comparison on heat exchanger setups vs wind shielded setups and fuel use. You may also want to check out the Bulin stove and pot combo the fins on the bottom of the pot are longer and covered with an additional cup piece on the bottom of the pot I’d be interested to see the correlation of the exchanger pots and their types of fins and the length of the fins.
thanks so much for the video, I think i'll be leaving my heat exchanger system in the bug out bag and taking my brs on hiking trips for the foreseeable future. I did 2x boils a day on my AT hike for coffee and dinner and definitely enjoyed the speed efficiency of the heat exchanger but in future endeavours I think a lower pack weight is worth a few extra minutes of cook time. Although probably an odd use case, the carryover heat exchange from the heat exchanger systems does help when actually cooking in a pot rather than just boiling water for a freeze dried meal
Very nice, I always wondered when it is worth carrying the extra weight. Something I was missing tho: As far as I know these HX system where originally developed for high alpine (winter) rockclimbing/summiting. So basically melting snow fast where time outweighs weight and volume. They were never ment for solo overnighters.
Excellent video again and look forward to the wind tests. Some random thoughts: - On residual heat. I've read recommendations to boil water at least a minute and more at altitude. Also, a lot of non-freeze-dried (and a lot cheaper) food recommends boiling for at least a couple of minutes. I rarely do that but I'll at least let it boil for a short time before turning off the stove. When cooking that way a few seconds before the stove go out and get cold isn't wasted IMO. - I used a canister stove for the first weeks of an AT thruhike and agree that shelters can be great wind shield but I also found that even inside a shelter or on a table close to the shelter it doesn't take a lot of wind before it affects boil times. I love the size and convenience of these stoves but on a longer hike it's often difficult to know if one canister is enough to the next resupply and it's not possible to add "slightly more" fuel like you can with a white gas stove. On the PCT you also have the added problem that you might have to melt snow in some sections.
All good thoughts. I did a series on Backcountry Water Treatment. Part 1 was on boiling vs Pasteurization. It addresses the issue of “boiling for 1 full minute” in the mountains. Also, there is discussion about what you can use pasteurized water for (you are right that dehydrated meals require “cooking” while freeze-dried only needs pour-and-mix).
Thanks for the reply. Thought I'd watched all your videos but must have skipped the boil-one (had watched the chemical treatment one though as I've used chemical treatment a lot). Turns out I've wasted fuel over the years, but since I use almost only dehydrated meals it could have been worse! I've looked at dehydrated vs freeze dried and weight-wise it's not that much saved while money-wise on a five months thruhike it's quite a difference. Dehydrated mostly require longer prepare times, but I'm usually able to find meals that don't require more than 10 minutes although a couple of minutes extra usually helps. On a non-extreme weather day, I'll start boiling(!) water as soon as I stop for the night and just manage to set up the tent before the water is ready. Then after adding the meal and stirring a bit I have time to unpack my stuff and do some chores and the meal is basically ready. Of course, adding the meal to the water immediately lowers the temp somewhat and I'll let the stove run for maybe half a minute more and maybe waste some fuel but hopefully also help the rehydration. Anyway, thanks for all the videos and I'll try to reduce fuel consumption at least a little from now.
Very interesting video. I have been using and comparing stoves for a couple of years, including Stash. Because I want a fuel efficient stove on my longer hikes. I have come to the same conclusion that the Stash is very fuel efficient. I put a Optimus Clip-On windscreen on the canister to get better performance in windy conditions.
Something I'm curious about is a different design on the heat exchangers. A coiled exchanger design should retain most of its efficiency and reduce the effect of wind. You also discussed how often people resupply, resupplying often is not efficient and adds steps. I'm one of those oddballs that has no issue going a month without going to town.
Yet another great episode in the quest for the holy boil. Meanwhile I also did some testing myself. Not as thorough as you, I did use a thermometer in the beginning but quickly discovered that my tap water is an almost constant 18 C. I also did not stop at the 200 F (93 C) mark but just did a visual check on boiling as that is what I will do in real life. Results are not too different from yours. My big 1.4 l HX pot boils 415 ml water using 4.9 grams of 80/20 isobutane/propane mix (the Primus brand) but using one of these cheap butane cylinders (these are sold over here as fuel for weed burners very cheaply) that same boil (after cooling down everything) uses only 4.5 grams of butane. Taking into account that the butane cylinder is lighter (327 grams, 227 grams gas) than the Primus one (380 grams, 230 grams of gas) this could be a good option for a summer holiday. As a plus, I find these cylinders easier to connect (push & twist) with less possibility for spoiling fuel when doing so. When your shop getting too warm, this might be a nice thing to test: what is the best fuel for a summer trip 😁😁😁
Very interesting episode since I’ve just been down the rabbit hole of buying and trying pots. And maybe it’s not over. I am a fan of that Firemaple kettle, it was very efficient. Ultimately tho I took it out of the kit because its diameter isn’t great in the pack. Even worse with the nesting pot and pan and despite a large size didn’t allow a gas bottle and Soto burner inside and still close the lid(s). I’ve now got a titanium small kettle from evernew and a 1 litre pasta pot. Fits everything inside while easy to pack. I have noticed I’m not going to tick every box. No one does titanium with heat exchangers, I don’t know why, and none have the versatility of being able to go from gas to campfire or twig stove. I’ve customised my pasta pot with a Billy wire so I could hang it over a campfire if need be. Nothing saves gas better than a folding twig stove.
machining and manufacturing titanium parts is significantly harder than aluminum. I suspect we will see more titanium products in the near future as 3d printing titanium is relatively popular and 3d printing allows for more complex HX designs
Titanium has relatively poor heat transfer, though. That’s probably a reason why you don’t see those. Good point about using over a campfire. Regular pots can be very versatile.
I had looked at HX pots extensively and found most of the pots you highlighted. One concern I have, which is way outside the scope of your video, is lead and cadmium contamination in the cheap pots being imported from low and middle income countries. There's been a few research studies that have found lead leaching from products that are imported into North America, through websites like Amazon or Ali Express. Since the pots are not sold directly in the US or Canada, these pots don't need to meet the regulations of those countries. In the end - I ended up going with titanium pots made in Japan. :)
Nice video. Given how wide the ring on the kettle is and how big the msr deluxe, I can imagine that its simply oxygen starved. As an small aside: you can use your trekking pole to accurately messure weights. Simply put what you want to measure (eg. the cannister) into the handstraps and see where the balance point is. Make a few markings before on the pole and especially in the >300g range you can get very precise measurements.
Very interesting and well thought out as I’ve come to expect from you. There’s a couple videos of backpackers doing boils of the BRS/ Toaks (my current) and the petrel/ greenpeak (in the mail.) The latter saving 2g/ boil. Now, I believe they were boiling 2 cups and the burner was the one Fire Maple sells with the pot. Fire intensity and weather would also be factors. Real interested to see your wind video and if you could use the greenpeak stove, I’d certainly appreciate it. Great work and thanks for the laughs 😁 Just thought to ask, what altitude are you at?
Another very Skeptically great video. I was curious if there was a significant fuel loss between burners when removing from the canister. That little pop always makes me wonder... Looking forward to the next GearSkeptic video.
I keep my external valve on the can while weighing and during tests, so there is no loss of gas with that little “pop” as you say. I suppose I could just try taking a stove on and off repeatedly and then measure the can to see if it is enough to tell.
Your videos are just so damn great. You’ve piqued my inner nerd and that’s also where I found my inner stupid. I’m trying to figure out the math on my own experiment. I’m using three different stoves under two different cups to evaluate boiling 2 cups of water. I know the weight of the stoves and cups and I know how long it takes to boil. I’m just not sure of the math to compare time to weight to figure out which makes the most sense to carry. Guidance for the dumb? THANK YOU!
Snow melting for winter camping is often done with white gas. It's a lot of energy and there is a lot of stove time at high. May need to do testing of my own.
Hypothesis, one could probably take the Petrel pot and not use those slots for the stove arms, increasing the gap and allowing the flame to develop in the center of the pot, and possibly increasing efficiency. (Possible downside instability.)
@@GearSkeptic Your water treatment series is the best, most well researched, most thorough and useful treatment (pun intended) on the subject I've ever seen
I noticed the pot with the add on HX unit had a black base. I wonder how the Reactor might behave with it or if you painted the bottom of a pot with black BBQ paint.
Since the HX system's ideal use case seems to be multiple boils (at least in the no wind case), it would be interesting to compare multiple boils vs 1 large boil across a variety of pots. Everything at this point is normalized to the same volume of water, but it would help people to draw conclusions if they have higher water needs per boil (e.g. couples and groups).
I'd be really curious to see how the Petrel performs with the GreenPeak stove that Fire Maple sells in some kits. It seems to have more distance between the burner and pot, maybe that would overcome some of the limitations you've seen using the Soto + Petrel?
I use a homemade alcohol sit-on-top stove with an Evernew 1.3 liter titanium pot and a titanium windscreen with about a 1/2" Gap all around. I use a piece of aluminum oven liner cut to the size of the pot bottom as a way to prevent scorching of picnic tables and shelter floors. I would usually achieve a 2 cup boil in less than 5 minutes on a bit more than 1/2 a fluid ounce of denatured alcohol in every temperature above freezing. Wind had very little effect at higher temperatures, but much more at lower temperatures. I used that system for 1,100 miles on the Appalachian Trail last year. Not very scientific, but being able to boil water with a small cat food can and eco-friendly alcohol is enough for me to have stuck with the system for 20 years.
In very low temps the lower time to boil should be even more efficient as the radiant heat loss from the heated pot to the cold air should be lower if boil happens faster.
I have a question for you. Since backpacks absorb water, since they typically aren't waterproof, can it be said that it's better to carry a backpack cover, which would shed water better? My own rudimentary backyard experiments show that my backpack can gain 20 ounces of water weight, but my backpack cover, which weighs 4 ounces, only gains 2 ounces of water, so that's saving 14 ounces. Obviously, that would only apply for rainy trails like the AT and not so much for the CDT, but am I missing something? I've never seen this addressed. Thanks, love your channel.
I see your point. I can already hear some arguing that covers aren’t that perfect and your pack will still get wet over time anyway. Personally, I think that is a function of how careful you are. A lot of people seem to have trouble with rain gear that might be due more to improper or careless use rather than a failing of the gear itself.. Still, it is an interesting idea for testing. Possibilities for comparison: regular nylon (absorbent pack), that pack with a cover, that pack with a repellent treatment, treatment plus cover, and then try a pack of nonabsorbent waterproof material like DCF. 🤔
@@GearSkeptic So I did the test again in a heavy rain and it gained 10 ounces with the cover, so I guess I didn't leave it out there long enough for the first test. That's still saving 5 ounces (19 ounces gained without cover - 4 oz for the cover - 10 ounces = 5 oz), but even if it's break even, the cover can provide a bright orange cover & reflectivity for walking along roads and more visibility for hunters. Again, not very scientific, so I'd be interested what kind of results you'd get. Thanks.
Thank you for all these tests! I wonder how a self-made caldera cone would perform, that hugs the upper side of the pot near the folded rim of the mug/pan and whereby the cone rests with cutouts in the cone, on the arms of the burner. Or al caldera cone wind screen where the upper holes are not merely cutouts, but that they are folded lips so it hangs/rests from the upper edge of the pot so you can use smaller diameter burners legs with bigger diameter pots. So that the cone doesn't need to rest on the legs of the burner. This makes me curious how this would fit in with your data since a caldera cone is kind of the unicorn for alcohol stoves, giving them superior wind protection and allows the sides of the pot to exchange heat, and doing all this for way less grams than a heat exchanger ring.
I'm testing out a heat exchanger pot in hopes it will solve the wind problem. I'll gladly take a few extra ounces if it significantly simplifies my cook kit.
Curious to know if you tried settling the Petrel on the fingers of the Soto (as opposed to locking them into the recessed slots) to see if the increased gap made a difference
Great channel. Unsolicited ask: Oxygen transfer rate (OTR) on name brand odor barrier bags! Aside from the empirical testing, also a dog sniff review at a local dog park or similar?
I think its not too long until we'll see HX systems that weigh less than a toaks 550 + brs hit the market. I made one, and have been using it for a few years now; so that shows its technically possible. And im not even that kind of engineer, so im sure a company with true proffesionals could get it to the point where its economicalky viable too!
Any chance on a GearSkeptic video whether setting up a trekking pole tent with carbon poles reduces the risk of being fried by lightning strike versus aluminum poles?
The test would not be set up in your workshop. 😅 I imagine there are many studies on lightning protection which led to the standards to protect buildings from lightning strikes. If based on that info it is not possible to give a definite answer whether carbon trekking poles are safer than aluminium ones a set up in a lightning prone area with lightning counters would be great to get closer to an answer.
Great job 👏 I use a Fire Maple remote titanium stove that fits inside of the fins of the 1 liter Fire Maple heat exchanger pot at low heat A large gas canister gives me an extended time of simmering cooking food like lentils . I don’t understand why you did not use a single stove head throughout the entire testing This would have kept the flame distance at a constant Also the stove weight as a constant to compare the final system weight savings Thanks
I spend hours a day on YT, but no one earns my loyalty more than GearSkeptic. It's nearly midnight here and I'm tired as a dog, but god damn I'll always stay up for this guy's videos.
That’s awesome! But, I think most people would say my videos are more likely to put them to sleep 😵💫
@@GearSkeptic It is quite funny reading that comment, but you know what? Couple of weeks ago when I was finishing 250km hike on New Zealand , what was I doing until late at night in a hut cracking in the wind? Watching video about filtering water from GearSceptic. :D. I just find it so interesting and that you really take into account nearly all options. Thanks a lot and I can't wait to see it in the wind. After that I will finally hopefully make a decision about my new cooker as I am still using my Primus Omnilite TI which is super cheap to run but rather bulky and quite tricky to operate.
OMG, I have to wait until Fall to see the wind results? You’re Killin Me Smalls! Yet another great video, excellent job! I guess I’ll have to wait for Part 5. It might be good to show a cost comparison of each option.
Good idea. When I’m able to do an “overall” performance including wind, I can bring in system prices, too.
Though I'm bummed we have to wait so long for the wind tests, his mental state in this video leads me to believe maybe some time away from the carbon monoxide will do@@GearSkeptic well.
Yeah, heat exchangers make a huge difference in windy conditions.
What about MSR's wrapped heat exchanger - it works as a windshield itself.
@@GearSkepticwe're all patiently waiting for the next video! Thought it was supposed to be at the start of fall?
It’s in the works. Had some significant delays, equipment failure that was tough to identify, then forced re-testing of a lot of my data. But, I’m back on track now.
This series makes my inner gear geek go into full thrill mode. The testing methodology was excellent at the get-go in episode 1, and this episode's double-check that demonstrated near-perfect adherence to the margin of error was a "wow" moment I usually can't offer a RUclipsr. Cool! Awesome work GearSkeptic! (SUPER curious about the with-wind results comparing non-hx to hx in the future but this is a thrill for another day).
Thanks very much! Most appreciated.
When I do the wind testing, there will be third-party windscreens involved, as well.
Dragging in after a long day at work...notification of a new GearSkeptic video produced a rush of endorphins that brought me back to the land of the living.......Thanks a million for another great video ....much appreciation...!!!!
For the first time ever someone is better at providing answers than I am at asking questions
Instant click. Best reviewer anywhere.
Your talk about heat absorption and a perfect heat exchanger are standard conversation for welders.
Thanks for all your many hours of hard work and expense bringing this information to us
You are most welcome!
I have tried the Petrel/Windmaster option and it starts and heats just fine in 20 mph+ winds. Very much looking forward to how it does in terms of fuel efficiency when you add wind. Thank you for the great work you are doing!
Me too, I wonder how much of a difference those neoprene covers actually make.
I had personally been trying to do comparison tests before I came across your channel. You've saved me a lot of time. Your tests are also way more precise than my own. Much appreciated!
I cannot express the level of gratitude and appreciation I have for your content! The scientific comparisons and breakdowns are invaluable. You're amazing!
Thanks very much! It is appreciated and I am glad if it can help.
Very interesting. I decided to test out your theory on the burner to pot gap using the Petrel and Soto Windmaster.
With the windmaster legs in the pot slots I boiled 500g of water in 5mins 10 using 6.5g of gas.
With the pot sat directly on top of the legs it boiled 40 secs faster and used on average 1.0g less per boil. Start temperature, burner level and conditions were kept the same. I do like the Petrel and Windmaster combo
Interesting! When I do wind testing, I plan to test it both ways, as well.
Interesting. I was supposed to order the 3 legs and a Petrel. Now I'll just use the 4 legs and order just the Petrel :D
Awesome stuff as usual. Former ultralight zealot here. In recent years i find myself using more and more fuel, especially if im with my wife. If im in the high country, I am known to enjoy a hot shower every few days. So I bring a large hx pot (1.5l) and dump it into a 3l bladder and its enough for my wife and I to wash ourselves. We also do at least 2 cups of instant coffee or tea in the am and maybe a warm up cup of chicken noodle before dinner. Very useful after a long hard, probably wet day to get some salt and heat down the gullet. I'm ambivalent to breakfast and lunch, usually one or the other preferring to eat small things more frequently then a banger hot dinner, many times with fish and a (gasp) frying pan. Desert cooking needs are about half of my high country needs. Cold bath, less food. For a guy like me I've switched to HX pots as they are great for high use people like me. If im going ultra ultra light ill bring my tiny ti pot and a small cannister and it will last me up to 5 days. If im melting snow, white gas is the is the only solution. Omnilite ti is the one for me.
Alas, even amongs an army of me, I have no less than 6 different systems depending on the trip. They all have thier pluses and minuses.
It is the mark of the true enthusiast to have a kit for every occasion!
Excellent as usual. I had been suspecting that the HX pots weren’t worth the additional weight, but hadn’t thought about whether they might be more worthwhile to larger volume users. Maybe they will redeem themselves a little when wind comes back into the picture. Can’t wait. Thanks again for your diligence.
Thanks for awesome analysis. I also use Soto Windmaster triflex with Petrel. Here I learned that what I thought was the optimal small stove gap is an efficiency penalty. But in wind? Having the stove head tucked into the HE cavity surely helps some? Even if the wind blows the close flame off the pot, the flame must pass through the HE fins. I look forward to your wind testing.
Here's an idea: in calm conditions, do NOT tuck the stove support arms into the Petrel channels, to increase the stove-pot gap, boosting efficiency. In wind, go ahead and tuck it close. Maybe I can modify the Petrel's channels to still lock the stove on, but not place the burner so close to the bottom of the pot.
I also learned that my preference for HE pots is entirely based on what amount to thermodynamic aesthetics and doesn't actually save me any weight, for my typical use cases. At least in no wind.
Good idea. When I do wind, I will also test the Petrel both in and out of the slotted recess. Thx!
I was anxiously waiting for this one! I ended up going with the Soto Windmaster + FireMaple Petrel for my PCT section hike thanks to FlatCat Gear's testing. I absolutely expect windy and cold conditions, which make the BRS worthless.
It’ll be interesting to see how HX systems compare to conventional pots WITH windscreens in moving air, from both a performance and weight efficiency standpoint.
@@GearSkeptic It's also worth taking into account simplicity. Windscreens are fiddly, and it's an extra thing to buy and carry. I already had a Soto Windmaster, so adding just an $18 HX pot for a full wind resistant system and not having to fiddle with anything else is quite ideal.
Always great to see another video. Ive see people shove a BRS in the fins on the Stash so I'd be curious to know how that would change things versus the Petrel and a BRS.
Also you've got me curious to see you do testing on the theory of burner height too. Something like ripping the wings off a BRS and the using an adjustable lab stand to change the height of the pot over the BRS. Maybe with the Stash, Petrel, Toaks 550, and the 118.
As always though great work!
That is the best video series about stove efficiency ever. I understand better now the relation between input and output. If I simplify the greater your outputs are the greater your input needs to be in order to raise the temperature of your water.
I tested the system on Mont Logan. Usually everybody use liquid stoves, because of the cold temperature and the limitation of the canister stove in those conditions (the gaz in the canister stay liquid and cannot vaporized because of the cold), BUT if you could keep the canister warm enough you could technically use a canister stove. Lot of people tried the copper strip to improve the use of canister in cold, we simply trade the tent for quinzy (snow caves). Inside a quinzy the temperature is around 0'C to -5'C. Which means that a canister stove works without any issues. Doing that we cut half the volume and half the weight compare using a liquid stove like everybody else.
This winter I am heading to a 60 day ski traverse on the Hudson Bay, in Canada. We don't want to take the bet of building an igloo every night in order to use a canister stover... So we are bring the good old tent and liquid stove. After watching your serie of videos I was wondering how we could improve our system in order to save fuel ? Because the same principals will apply, the more we protect our system form the output the less input we will need.
Thomas Ulrich created a system which is based on the first polar expeditions. Here is the link www.thomasulrich.com/en/polar-shop/stove.html
The principal is simple, insulating the pot from the outside temperature to minimised the lost while heating up the water. A system used by Nansen on his polar expeditions. backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/vintage-stove-pot-design-for-frigid-temperatures/
With Ulrich system we can technically save 1/3 of the fuel compare to normal system (These days, pretty much everybody use MSR XGK stove, on polar expedition).
But here is my question... (sorry that was a long introduction for a short question). Has the XGK is a really powerful stove that cannot be dimmed down. Would it be possible, with Ulrich system or something similare, to used a less powerful (or more adjustable) stove like the MSR dragonfly in order to save even more fuel ?
Long polar expeditions (40 to 70 days) are using a lot of fuel and it would be awesome if we could use the results of your research to create an ultralight system for those adventures.
p.s. a Part 5 on stove efficiency about the impact of the cold would be great (like real cold 0F to -20F at least).
Thanks for your work.
I have begun collecting liquid fuel stoves, and alcohol stoves so that I can someday test those also for comparison to canister stoves. It will probably take me a long time to get through all those tests, though.
@@GearSkeptic I quick and dirty test, because you already have all that data with the same stoves and pot/bowl, would be to use the Nansen system (which is pretty much just a super big pot flip upside down over the whole system, somekind of a windscreen with a closed top. It is creating a warm/hot environnement and could potentially allow us to use the low flame, even with strong wind, and cold temperature. If the results are positive, I would be welling to try the system with diffrent liquid stove on my expedition and we could compare data.
Thanks as always for your hard and careful work put into these.
Regarding the theory that larger burners to pot gaps may be more efficient. This could be tested with the Petrel by trying both ways, with the stove inset in the slots, compared against the stove arms holding the outer flux ring. Absolute water temperature wouldn't matter, as only delta g/boil is of interest. The results could also always be easily converted to any water temperature using specific heat.
Normal stove on flat bottom pots feature narrower gaps, which might be a clue that narrow gaps aren't inherently penalizing. On the other hand, the flux rings could choke out air fuel when hot, necessitating a larger gap compared to a flat bottom pot that these stoves are typically designed for. There may be a trade off at play with Hx pots: narrower gap more effective in wind, taller gap without. I used a Stash pot on a pocket rocket deluxe all season in '23 (~ 30 days) and in wind, a narrower gap seems like it would work better just judging by the flame contact with the pot bottom.
Agreed! Pot-burner gap could use more testing.
@@GearSkeptic It's hiking season! I fully understand your packing up the tools. Thanks again. I've posted my thoughts and technical analysis over on Backpacking Light
So detailed tests!
Thanks a lot!
Waiting for HX plus Wind!
doing the Lord's work lol, well done. pretty sure RUclips sent me here after watching a video where a guy used a Soto Amicus and went through 2 canisters and into a 3rd while his partner was still on their first canister using a Jetboil Minimo. These setups really seem to shine over long-haul scenarios where the efficiency really pays off. Anyway, thanks for sharing!
Thank you for being so thorough and scientific once again! I do have both Toaks/BRS and Stash pot/Windmaster system, I keep going to Stash pot/Windmaster. Granted it doesn’t win on weight, but I have burnt my fingers and spilled the Toaks cup once too many on windy days 😅
Just as I finish ALL of gear skeptics videos, another emerges.
Consider yourself lucky. Now you wait with the rest of us
I like videos that make me feel stupid - mission accomplished (now to re-watch a few times).
🤓
I appreciate the amount of time and effort you are putting into this subject. Ive just started looking into using the Stash pot with the BRS stove 👍
You made me not to choose the Reactor. Im going for the Stash. Thanks for your time invested for us! 😊
I have a BRS+750ml pot for my day-pack setup for occasional or emergency use.
I have a JetBoil for planned trips for regular use.
Since I have both ends of this spectrum I’m thankful you did all this work! You’ve made me realize I should carry my lightweight windscreen with my BRA setup and could use it on short trips. You’ve also helped me feel a bit better about the added initial cost of the JetBoil!
Thanks again for this series!
Very glad to help!
Appreciate the actual use of the scientific method for gear. Thanks chief! Suggested topics: double wall vs single wall tent heat retention. Also quilts vs sleeping bags in heat loss reality.
When I looked at the question of which boiler setup to buy for solo and eventually gave up and bought the Stash as a nicely integrated system. I am quite happy with the choice!
I mostly use it in the tent vestibule, so wind isn't a huge problem. But a wind screen might help for lunch.
I think it's a worthwhile trade-off for the boil time, but to each their own.
Great test!
Cant wait to see a future iteration where the reactor might shine, this beeing low temperatures, mountaneering and a little snow melting scenarios. Complication would be that we start going into the realm of remote and inverted canister systems as well... good luck and as aways thank you for the amazing content!
The old MSR heat exchanger... Memories... That "boat anchor" is really good with one pot. It was designed for use with that one pot for the purpose of melting snow and ice into drinkable water, which takes huge amounts of fuel. It was typically used with a 1.5-2 liter pot, with an MSR XGK or XGK II stove. These stoves burn anything from white gas to kerosine to diesel fuel. They are very loud, sounding like a jet engine throttled up during takeoff! Back in the late 80s early 90s, that was the most efficient way bar-none of making water from snow and ice. The weight of it made it something only used for situations that required a lot of water from snow and ice. Not surprised whatsoever that it doesn't fare well when compared to more modern designs...
Given your results, the new Fire Maple G2 (750ml) pot should outperform the Petrel G3 since it is wider. If the Petrel does as well in your wind test as i expect, you might consider testing the G2 pot.
Great series, looking foraward to the wind tests
You do such a great job! Thank you for you thorough efforts
And without the science, my dad insists we should bring a jet boil for larger groups- clearly there is something to that! thanks for the great video! Looking forward to wind testing!
Your observation about distance of burner from pot and its effect on efficiency is interesting. You have likely noted that Fire Maple has paired their newer Hornet II (non-regulated) stove with their Petrel pot. The distance between the burner and the pot is easily twice as far as that between the Soto with triplex pot supports. I have to wonder what difference that distance will make in efficiency. You might come close to replicating by not inserting the pot supports of the Soto into the grooves of the Petrel pot bottom. I bought the Hornet II and Petrel pot as well as one of the FlatCatGear windscreens made to fit the Hornet II stoves. It is ingenious but simple and lightweight. I haven’t tested it yet as a system in windy conditions but anticipate, based upon Jon’s tests for the effects of wind on fuel consumption, that it will be a very efficient solution in real world conditions which very often include some wind. My goal is to find the lightest but very efficient stove/pot system that will allow me to extend a single fuel canister over a period of about five to six days while heating water at least twice per day for breakfast and supper. Too, for a very few additional ounces on my back, I will accept that weight penalty to realize the savings in cost through a reduction in grams per heating event of my water. For me, speed is not a factor as long as I can achieve my goal of adequately heated water inside of about 6 minutes or so. I apply that same metric to heating with alcohol stoves too. I do think we viewers will be “blown away” 😊 by the degree of efficiency of an HX pot with more protected fins, such as the Petrel or the kettle, over a pot such as the Stash with a more open base, especially when combined with a nested stove such as the Soto Windmaster with the triplex pot support . See you in the Fall.
Undoubtedly my favorite review chanel. Always my RUclips favorite notification! You are quite literally one of my go to's when hiking. I love the basic and yet scientific approach taken to our real world struggles and frustrations on the trail. I know quality doesn't come quickly but for all our sakes on the next review, hurry every chance you get.!!!!!!
Thanks very much! That means a great deal. I’m always working on some part of one of several possible upcoming projects. Stupid real life has a way of interfering, though… 😏
@@GearSkeptic I know,right? Keep up the good work and greetings from Idaho.
Another great video.
In a future video, I'd like to see a comparison between heat exchangers and tight windscreens which redirect the exhaust around the outside of the pot (giving an extra opportunity to capture the heat - acting like a secondary heat exchanger of sorts), and compared to kelly kettles which do the same but on the inside of the pot - and of course combinations of heat exchangers with the windscreens.
⬆️ Yes, this.
I do have plans to include third-party windscreens with the wind testing of HX systems!
This is absolutely amazing. I am so glad you are doing these experiments and tests.
Thanks! I hope it helps.
Hey, would it be possible to add the Firemaple G2 Petrel 750ml pot? It's 22g heavier, but I really prefer slightly bigger pots. Thanks for the great videos!
Another great video, I appreciate all the work. I think the MSR heat exchanger ring is more aimed at liquid fuelled stoves like the whisper light or dragonfly with their wider flames. I would love to see a canister stove with a wider flame compared as well such as the Optimus Crux. Perhaps they benefit from a heat exchanger more than a narrower flame. Of course the HE pot can’t be too small or the flame may hit the wrong part of the HE.
The cooling effects of wind on the pot will also be compounded by any decrease in temperature. I think that consideration is also easy to forget when we are laser focused on efficiency in static temperature wind comparisons. Tiny variables affect performance, sure but they are insignificant compared to real world variables.
I work 4 seasons in the wilderness and often make a coffee, porridge or soup on a cold day. I dislike the waste of canister stoves and so rarely use them but I have often thought there are many weaknesses people forget, especially in cold weather. Larger fuel tanks have more fuel mass when new and so if kept warm take longer to lose their heat and fuel pressure. Unfortunately they also remain as a “partial” canister longer. To make sure I always have fuel I would carry two canisters so I could run one completely empty before using the next. On a camping trip it’s easy to measure and pay close attention but not so much when its part of a work kit. That’s obviously more practical with smaller sized canisters.
I have been using the Fire Maple XT1.8L kettle with the Zen pot stand with alcohol burners for the last year. It is a good combination because the prongs on the pot stand fit inside the heat exchanger ring making it wind resistant and stable. There is no flame spill around the edge of kettle at all. The Zen pot stand has adjustable levels for burners such as the Trangia, Evernew Titanium and Toaks Siphon making it easy to find the “sweet spot” for various alcohol burners.
I do have alcohol burners on my list of things to test….someday!
I understand, and you do a very thorough job of testing I must say, hang in there!
Wow this was quality work, I learned a lot. Thank you! I very much enjoy how deep in the weeds this is.
Thanks for such amazing content! Would love to see something like this for alcohool stoves (comparing caldera systems and things such as)
Hello,
I hope you are well.
I really miss the continuation of this great series.
All the best and kind regards
Thank you! It is finally getting cooler here. In the next few weeks it should get cold enough for me to start the tests again.
You could test the flame gap theory with the Petrel. Run it with the pot supports in the slots and then with it not in the slots. Everything remains the same, except the gap.
Yes! I plan to try that when I do the wind testing.
Love it!!! Can’t wait for the wind results in the fall. In the meantime, maybe a video experimenting with distance between burner head & pot. Another idea would be to compare different brands of fuel for burn temperature and if the air/ fuel mixture of different stoves affects the burn temp. Just thinking out loud. Regardless, I’ll watch whatever you produce!! Thank you very much all you do.
All good ideas! I also want to test aluminum vs titanium vs stainless steel. So many things…
Wow. Amazing data capture. I recently bought the Petzel to test with my super efficient DIY alcohol burners. I won't do anything close to your rigor. But hopefully my tests will help determine if the Petzel is a good option for alcohol burners. Video in a few days. TomLovesDIY
I have an optimus terra HE pot .9 liter. When paired with a MSR pocket rocket deluxe it boils 2 cups of water in around 1.5 minutes at medium flame. My toaks 750ml on the same stove with low or medium flame taked 3.5 - 4 minutes to boil. On a recent 14 day backpacking trip I carried the Optimus terra he pot for the first week when I was cooking for 2. During the second week I carried a MSR Talon 1 liter pot (titanium and significantly lighter) and cooked for one. I found that when I was hungry and preparing meals (I cook morning and evening) the time difference was notable and I much preferred the quicker boil. Less trying to think of something to do while I waited for water to boil. Also less boiled over pots because I started something during the boil and the pot would beat me. I much preferred the HE pot and faster boil times even with a 4oz - 6oz. penalty.
It seems that the Optimus HE pot over the MSR pocket rocket deluxe hits a sweet spot. Since it has no slots for the legs there is a greater burner to pot distance which might make it considerably more efficient. In all my unscientific use of the system I much prefer it to any other pot combination including my toaks & bsr combination.
I found that when you have hiked in the rain or endured cool temperatures during the day getting a warm meal faster makes a huge psychological difference.
Incidentally I read one review comparing stove systems that found the best combination was an MSR pocket rocked deluxe stove with an oilcamp HX 1 liter pot. Beating out the jetboil in the tests for speed and efficiency.
I am planning a through hike next year and am trying to decide on my stove system. I like the HE pot for speed more than efficiency. I have just purchased the Petrel pot to see if I like that in combination with the MSR pocket rocket deluxe as well. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions.
And then along comes wind! Be interesting to see how that affects it all.
Oh Lord this is going to be great!
Great review. I just received the Petrel and I did quick tests with brs300 and pocket rocket 2, and I had 4gr for 500gr water. Also they ship a set where they have Hornet stove which has pretty high distance to the pot. So I think stove choice is making a difference for Petrel.
I'm using an Olicamp XTS with a Trangia which has a diy simmer ring made from the top section of a soda can. Pot is held up by a two piece punched titanium sheet material that interlocks to work also as a windscreen. I have the canisters and a brs 3000 stove but I get the sense that with the yellow Heet and the heat exchanger along with the simmer ring I'm saving money. Hoping when I have a few minutes I could crunch the numbers to check. I'll have to run through this video a second time to catch those numbers. I appreciate the informative work you're doing!
I do have plans for alcohol stoves…eventually
It is fall! I say again, it is fall!
We all want to see wind tests. On the Petrel maybe you can do a test with the stand on the bottom of the heat ex changer (not in the intended slots) to increase the distance from the burner?
Thanks for nerding out! 😊
Testing is underway! And yes, I will try the petrel both in the slots and on the bottom. 👍🏼
Something that I am curious about: how much CO (carbonmonoxide) do these different hx systems produce. And is there a correlation with efficiency and amount of CO produced? My hx kettle (same kettle as you tested) always trips my CO alarm in my camper and the MSR reactor is notorious for producing lots op CO which makes these stoves more dangerous inside tents
I enjoyed this video as I’ve been looking into heat exchanger pots and stove combos in the future I’d love to see a comparison on heat exchanger setups vs wind shielded setups and fuel use. You may also want to check out the Bulin stove and pot combo the fins on the bottom of the pot are longer and covered with an additional cup piece on the bottom of the pot I’d be interested to see the correlation of the exchanger pots and their types of fins and the length of the fins.
Yes! It is coming. I just need to wait until it cools down in my shop.
thanks so much for the video, I think i'll be leaving my heat exchanger system in the bug out bag and taking my brs on hiking trips for the foreseeable future. I did 2x boils a day on my AT hike for coffee and dinner and definitely enjoyed the speed efficiency of the heat exchanger but in future endeavours I think a lower pack weight is worth a few extra minutes of cook time. Although probably an odd use case, the carryover heat exchange from the heat exchanger systems does help when actually cooking in a pot rather than just boiling water for a freeze dried meal
Very nice, I always wondered when it is worth carrying the extra weight. Something I was missing tho: As far as I know these HX system where originally developed for high alpine (winter) rockclimbing/summiting. So basically melting snow fast where time outweighs weight and volume. They were never ment for solo overnighters.
Excellent video again and look forward to the wind tests. Some random thoughts:
- On residual heat. I've read recommendations to boil water at least a minute and more at altitude. Also, a lot of non-freeze-dried (and a lot cheaper) food recommends boiling for at least a couple of minutes. I rarely do that but I'll at least let it boil for a short time before turning off the stove. When cooking that way a few seconds before the stove go out and get cold isn't wasted IMO.
- I used a canister stove for the first weeks of an AT thruhike and agree that shelters can be great wind shield but I also found that even inside a shelter or on a table close to the shelter it doesn't take a lot of wind before it affects boil times. I love the size and convenience of these stoves but on a longer hike it's often difficult to know if one canister is enough to the next resupply and it's not possible to add "slightly more" fuel like you can with a white gas stove. On the PCT you also have the added problem that you might have to melt snow in some sections.
All good thoughts.
I did a series on Backcountry Water Treatment. Part 1 was on boiling vs Pasteurization. It addresses the issue of “boiling for 1 full minute” in the mountains. Also, there is discussion about what you can use pasteurized water for (you are right that dehydrated meals require “cooking” while freeze-dried only needs pour-and-mix).
Thanks for the reply. Thought I'd watched all your videos but must have skipped the boil-one (had watched the chemical treatment one though as I've used chemical treatment a lot). Turns out I've wasted fuel over the years, but since I use almost only dehydrated meals it could have been worse!
I've looked at dehydrated vs freeze dried and weight-wise it's not that much saved while money-wise on a five months thruhike it's quite a difference.
Dehydrated mostly require longer prepare times, but I'm usually able to find meals that don't require more than 10 minutes although a couple of minutes extra usually helps. On a non-extreme weather day, I'll start boiling(!) water as soon as I stop for the night and just manage to set up the tent before the water is ready.
Then after adding the meal and stirring a bit I have time to unpack my stuff and do some chores and the meal is basically ready. Of course, adding the meal to the water immediately lowers the temp somewhat and I'll let the stove run for maybe half a minute more and maybe waste some fuel but hopefully also help the rehydration.
Anyway, thanks for all the videos and I'll try to reduce fuel consumption at least a little from now.
Very interesting video. I have been using and comparing stoves for a couple of years, including Stash. Because I want a fuel efficient stove on my longer hikes. I have come to the same conclusion that the Stash is very fuel efficient. I put a Optimus Clip-On windscreen on the canister to get better performance in windy conditions.
Interesting. I will have to try the Optimus shield with a Stash when I do the wind tests!
Something I'm curious about is a different design on the heat exchangers. A coiled exchanger design should retain most of its efficiency and reduce the effect of wind.
You also discussed how often people resupply, resupplying often is not efficient and adds steps. I'm one of those oddballs that has no issue going a month without going to town.
Your videos are amazing! Thank you very much for such pedantic work. I love it!
Looking forward for next videos.
Another great video. Thanks!
Yet another great episode in the quest for the holy boil. Meanwhile I also did some testing myself. Not as thorough as you, I did use a thermometer in the beginning but quickly discovered that my tap water is an almost constant 18 C. I also did not stop at the 200 F (93 C) mark but just did a visual check on boiling as that is what I will do in real life.
Results are not too different from yours. My big 1.4 l HX pot boils 415 ml water using 4.9 grams of 80/20 isobutane/propane mix (the Primus brand) but using one of these cheap butane cylinders (these are sold over here as fuel for weed burners very cheaply) that same boil (after cooling down everything) uses only 4.5 grams of butane. Taking into account that the butane cylinder is lighter (327 grams, 227 grams gas) than the Primus one (380 grams, 230 grams of gas) this could be a good option for a summer holiday.
As a plus, I find these cylinders easier to connect (push & twist) with less possibility for spoiling fuel when doing so.
When your shop getting too warm, this might be a nice thing to test: what is the best fuel for a summer trip 😁😁😁
I do want to compare brands and types of gas fuel to see how they perform. No shortage of ideas for future videos!
Very interesting episode since I’ve just been down the rabbit hole of buying and trying pots. And maybe it’s not over. I am a fan of that Firemaple kettle, it was very efficient. Ultimately tho I took it out of the kit because its diameter isn’t great in the pack. Even worse with the nesting pot and pan and despite a large size didn’t allow a gas bottle and Soto burner inside and still close the lid(s). I’ve now got a titanium small kettle from evernew and a 1 litre pasta pot. Fits everything inside while easy to pack. I have noticed I’m not going to tick every box. No one does titanium with heat exchangers, I don’t know why, and none have the versatility of being able to go from gas to campfire or twig stove. I’ve customised my pasta pot with a Billy wire so I could hang it over a campfire if need be. Nothing saves gas better than a folding twig stove.
machining and manufacturing titanium parts is significantly harder than aluminum. I suspect we will see more titanium products in the near future as 3d printing titanium is relatively popular and 3d printing allows for more complex HX designs
Titanium has relatively poor heat transfer, though. That’s probably a reason why you don’t see those.
Good point about using over a campfire. Regular pots can be very versatile.
Any chance you could take a look at using alchohol stoves with heat exchanger pots? And if it's a good enough idea to try out?
Yes! Alcohol stoves are on my list.
I had looked at HX pots extensively and found most of the pots you highlighted. One concern I have, which is way outside the scope of your video, is lead and cadmium contamination in the cheap pots being imported from low and middle income countries. There's been a few research studies that have found lead leaching from products that are imported into North America, through websites like Amazon or Ali Express. Since the pots are not sold directly in the US or Canada, these pots don't need to meet the regulations of those countries.
In the end - I ended up going with titanium pots made in Japan. :)
Nice video.
Given how wide the ring on the kettle is and how big the msr deluxe, I can imagine that its simply oxygen starved.
As an small aside: you can use your trekking pole to accurately messure weights. Simply put what you want to measure (eg. the cannister) into the handstraps and see where the balance point is. Make a few markings before on the pole and especially in the >300g range you can get very precise measurements.
It is possible there was an oxygenation issue, but usually that results in sooting, which I did not see in this case.
28:54 this just tickles me to watch! So fun.
It is October! Looking forward to your wind test!
Ha! The temperature is dropping. Not quite cold enough, but it approaches…
The cold weather is approaching fast.
Very interesting and well thought out as I’ve come to expect from you. There’s a couple videos of backpackers doing boils of the BRS/ Toaks (my current) and the petrel/ greenpeak (in the mail.) The latter saving 2g/ boil. Now, I believe they were boiling 2 cups and the burner was the one Fire Maple sells with the pot. Fire intensity and weather would also be factors. Real interested to see your wind video and if you could use the greenpeak stove, I’d certainly appreciate it. Great work and thanks for the laughs 😁
Just thought to ask, what altitude are you at?
2400 feet altitude. Soon it will be cool enough to resume testing!
How dare you make us wait until Fall for the wind tests! We shall not stand for this! We need the results now! NOW I SAY! gyaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
😱🤯🤓
Another very Skeptically great video. I was curious if there was a significant fuel loss between burners when removing from the canister. That little pop always makes me wonder... Looking forward to the next GearSkeptic video.
I keep my external valve on the can while weighing and during tests, so there is no loss of gas with that little “pop” as you say. I suppose I could just try taking a stove on and off repeatedly and then measure the can to see if it is enough to tell.
Your videos are just so damn great. You’ve piqued my inner nerd and that’s also where I found my inner stupid. I’m trying to figure out the math on my own experiment. I’m using three different stoves under two different cups to evaluate boiling 2 cups of water. I know the weight of the stoves and cups and I know how long it takes to boil. I’m just not sure of the math to compare time to weight to figure out which makes the most sense to carry. Guidance for the dumb? THANK YOU!
Snow melting for winter camping is often done with white gas. It's a lot of energy and there is a lot of stove time at high. May need to do testing of my own.
So much work ! Thanks for it.
Would like to see in-depth video about alcohol stoves and caldera cone 😊
Alcohol stoves are definitely on my To Do list!
Hypothesis, one could probably take the Petrel pot and not use those slots for the stove arms, increasing the gap and allowing the flame to develop in the center of the pot, and possibly increasing efficiency. (Possible downside instability.)
Yes! I plan to test it both ways when I do the wind testing.
Great tests! Very interesting! Have you compared aluminum pots vs titanium pots? That would be a interesting comparison 😀👍
It is on my list! Aluminum vs titanium vs stainless steel pots. Also, blackened vs shiny pots.
Holy. F-ing. Crap. Where has this channel been all my life?
Hiding in obscurity where it's safe :)
@@GearSkeptic Your water treatment series is the best, most well researched, most thorough and useful treatment (pun intended) on the subject I've ever seen
@@gearsmithy thanks much! That is very appreciated.
I noticed the pot with the add on HX unit had a black base. I wonder how the Reactor might behave with it or if you painted the bottom of a pot with black BBQ paint.
Have to put that on my list of things to try! (someday)
Since the HX system's ideal use case seems to be multiple boils (at least in the no wind case), it would be interesting to compare multiple boils vs 1 large boil across a variety of pots. Everything at this point is normalized to the same volume of water, but it would help people to draw conclusions if they have higher water needs per boil (e.g. couples and groups).
I do have it on my list! I’ve begun collecting 2L containers for larger volume tests.
Somebody likes This old Tony...
I'd be really curious to see how the Petrel performs with the GreenPeak stove that Fire Maple sells in some kits. It seems to have more distance between the burner and pot, maybe that would overcome some of the limitations you've seen using the Soto + Petrel?
I use a homemade alcohol sit-on-top stove with an Evernew 1.3 liter titanium pot and a titanium windscreen with about a 1/2" Gap all around. I use a piece of aluminum oven liner cut to the size of the pot bottom as a way to prevent scorching of picnic tables and shelter floors. I would usually achieve a 2 cup boil in less than 5 minutes on a bit more than 1/2 a fluid ounce of denatured alcohol in every temperature above freezing. Wind had very little effect at higher temperatures, but much more at lower temperatures. I used that system for 1,100 miles on the Appalachian Trail last year. Not very scientific, but being able to boil water with a small cat food can and eco-friendly alcohol is enough for me to have stuck with the system for 20 years.
The nerd in me rejoices!
🤓
In very low temps the lower time to boil should be even more efficient as the radiant heat loss from the heated pot to the cold air should be lower if boil happens faster.
I have a question for you. Since backpacks absorb water, since they typically aren't waterproof, can it be said that it's better to carry a backpack cover, which would shed water better? My own rudimentary backyard experiments show that my backpack can gain 20 ounces of water weight, but my backpack cover, which weighs 4 ounces, only gains 2 ounces of water, so that's saving 14 ounces. Obviously, that would only apply for rainy trails like the AT and not so much for the CDT, but am I missing something? I've never seen this addressed. Thanks, love your channel.
I see your point. I can already hear some arguing that covers aren’t that perfect and your pack will still get wet over time anyway.
Personally, I think that is a function of how careful you are. A lot of people seem to have trouble with rain gear that might be due more to improper or careless use rather than a failing of the gear itself..
Still, it is an interesting idea for testing. Possibilities for comparison: regular nylon (absorbent pack), that pack with a cover, that pack with a repellent treatment, treatment plus cover, and then try a pack of nonabsorbent waterproof material like DCF. 🤔
@@GearSkeptic So I did the test again in a heavy rain and it gained 10 ounces with the cover, so I guess I didn't leave it out there long enough for the first test. That's still saving 5 ounces (19 ounces gained without cover - 4 oz for the cover - 10 ounces = 5 oz), but even if it's break even, the cover can provide a bright orange cover & reflectivity for walking along roads and more visibility for hunters. Again, not very scientific, so I'd be interested what kind of results you'd get. Thanks.
Thank you for all these tests! I wonder how a self-made caldera cone would perform, that hugs the upper side of the pot near the folded rim of the mug/pan and whereby the cone rests with cutouts in the cone, on the arms of the burner.
Or al caldera cone wind screen where the upper holes are not merely cutouts, but that they are folded lips so it hangs/rests from the upper edge of the pot so you can use smaller diameter burners legs with bigger diameter pots. So that the cone doesn't need to rest on the legs of the burner.
This makes me curious how this would fit in with your data since a caldera cone is kind of the unicorn for alcohol stoves, giving them superior wind protection and allows the sides of the pot to exchange heat, and doing all this for way less grams than a heat exchanger ring.
When I do the wind testing for HX pots, there will also be some third party windscreens involved!
I'm testing out a heat exchanger pot in hopes it will solve the wind problem. I'll gladly take a few extra ounces if it significantly simplifies my cook kit.
Can you do a Dyneema Tent vs aerodynamic Silnylon tent for Winter camping comparition video?
Ouch, I saw the price of the reactor. This was entertaining despite my always going stoveless
The accordion style MSR Heat Exchanger iirc is meant for the stainless steel MSR Alpine pots.
I have a note to test it further using their recommended pots, plus some others for more direct comparison to bottom-fin models.
Petrel has the benefit of adjusting the burner gap. Be interested to know results of petrel if burner isn't used inside the slots.
Agreed! When I do the wind testing, I will check it both ways.
Thanks again for another fantastic and well designed presentation 🫡
Curious to know if you tried settling the Petrel on the fingers of the Soto (as opposed to locking them into the recessed slots) to see if the increased gap made a difference
It’s been suggested! I will try it both ways when I do the wind testing 👍🏼
Great channel. Unsolicited ask: Oxygen transfer rate (OTR) on name brand odor barrier bags! Aside from the empirical testing, also a dog sniff review at a local dog park or similar?
Hmm. Interesting. Have to give that some thought!
Im so curious what the relationship between burner gap and wind performance will be. Will the petrel gain any advantage??
I think its not too long until we'll see HX systems that weigh less than a toaks 550 + brs hit the market. I made one, and have been using it for a few years now; so that shows its technically possible. And im not even that kind of engineer, so im sure a company with true proffesionals could get it to the point where its economicalky viable too!
Let me see. I like making stuff also
I’ve seen your video! The Joule Thief. It is a fine thing, indeed!
Any chance on a GearSkeptic video whether setting up a trekking pole tent with carbon poles reduces the risk of being fried by lightning strike versus aluminum poles?
Hmmm…no idea how that could be tested (much less safely)
The test would not be set up in your workshop. 😅
I imagine there are many studies on lightning protection which led to the standards to protect buildings from lightning strikes. If based on that info it is not possible to give a definite answer whether carbon trekking poles are safer than aluminium ones a set up in a lightning prone area with lightning counters would be great to get closer to an answer.
Great job 👏
I use a Fire Maple remote titanium stove that fits inside of the fins of the 1 liter Fire Maple heat exchanger pot at low heat
A large gas canister gives me an extended time of simmering cooking food like lentils
.
I don’t understand why you did not use a single stove head throughout the entire testing
This would have kept the flame distance at a constant
Also the stove weight as a constant to compare the final system weight savings
Thanks
No one stove would fit all scenarios, and some of the pots had proprietary, attached stoves that won’t work on other pots.
@@GearSkeptic
Clearly the self contained units use their own stoves
The BRS stove would not have worked?
Could you test the pot gap hypothesis with the petrel by not putting the pot into the slots, just resting it on the hx?
Yes! When I do the wind testing, I will try that.