The diesels providing dynamic braking on the return trip has saved them so much money and time not having to replace brake shoes. No more braking for 16 miles downhill every time. Not to mention the wye in Ridgeley is basically no man’s land, no way they want to bring 1309 back there every single day just to turn it. So there is really no need for the turntable now.
Another thing to consider is that the track going into the turntable crosses a road. This road will have to be ripped up and repaved with a new crossing installed. To add to this the road in question is a snow emergency route so doing the work in the WMSR’S “off” season in the winter nearly impossible. With the alignment needed ripping most of the Frostburg track up this would cut access to Frostburg for a minimum of a week or two in the middle of summer.
I would say that building a wye would be the solution, which would allow locomotives like the 1309 to turn around without having a turntable to turn around.
Well, that answers my question. It's interesting that the hinge doesn't allow for any vertical flexing. Perhaps that was a feature only on higher-speed articulated locomotives. I know Challengers and N&W Class A had them.
They just weren't thinking when they made this purchase. I know it's different management but seriously, when 1309 needs to go down for a rebuild, they need something a bit more practical.
I don't think theres any issue. I visited in October of 2023, and I don't think there's anything wrong with how WMSR is running it now. 734 is also going to be restored and continue turning on the turntable like before. 1309 was way to much money for the railroad to just dump.
@@SouthernKansasRailfan It wasn't a smart purchase from the get-go. To quote one of my favorite movies, "They were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they never stopped to think if they should." 😂
Wow I never knew that. Thank you for sharing. I am glad that 1309 has been running but I was there one time on that railroad and 2015 with my mom and my grandparents it was 734’s last year we got lunch in a café at Frostburg .therefore we did not watch the locomotive turn around as we went up to the hill to eat somewhere before we came back for a return trip back to Cumberland
It’s not so much just the track work, it’s working with Frostburg politicians to shut down a busy road, and close it for weeks. Hiring an engineer to level out the grade, and find time in the busy WMSR schedule to do the work as they’re running year round.
1309 is actually nicknamed "Super Choo". Some idiotic anonymous user just added the nonsensical "Mountain Mommy" on the Wikipedia page for no reason whatsoever.
The best possible outcome in the future is the elimination of the Turntable and a 2.2 miles of track laided between the Frostburg station and the current end of the Georges Creek Branch. That way they have a complete railroad, ignoring tge expensive of the tunnel. Then find a new place for the turntable in Westernport.
Honestly, it'd be rad if MDOT could act on their plan to extend MARC Brunswick Line trains to Cumberland. And then if WMSR wants to principally run the George's Creek Branch, the Frostburg line could become the terminus for a couple of those MARC trains. I'm sure the folks in Frostburg wouldn't mind being able to take a direct train to more places, & WMSR wouldn't mind the extra tourists taking the train in from the rest of the state.
@@joneau261 I never said it was the easiest for operation, but rather the easiest for a solution that allows them to run the steam engines as they want, on the head end of each train in both directions
@@doubleutubefan5 they don’t need the extra power going downhill, it’s all uphill they need the power. Also, the wye in Ridgely needs work, which is why we haven’t seen an east facing 1309 for a photo special so far.
@@joneau261 ill take your word for it. I used to live out that way and ride that line but I live in the Midwest now so visiting Cumberland is expensive
There are several issues with extending the old C&P line back down to Westernport md. First the tunnel doesn’t meet existing standards for today. The tunnel is timber lined and has been out of service for at least 100 years. So rehabilitation of the tunnel would be approximately 10 million on the low end. To correct a severe drainage issue that resides with in the tunnel. Best would be the former right of way was built over with an apartment complex on the west side of it. Further down the line Interstate 68 buried the line near midalothian md. Neat would be after that obstruction is the former right of way reverted back to the adjacent property owner’s and a local strip mining and or landfill operation. Past all the hurdles in the way. It would costly to undertake this endeavor. Th only way for it to happen would be if the state was to take eminent domain for the completion. That is not going to happen in today’s environment. The senic railroad doesn’t haul freight at this point in time. I don’t see them hauling coal from that region since the mines have been worked out a long time ago. There is a possibility of having local businesses in the westernport that could possibly generate traffic for the line in the future. Then another issue arises as for csx to regenerate the former interchange with the westernport/ Mc coole md. They had one a few years ago whe the former westvaco plant was working.
The two lines are never going to connect each other. The Frostburg Tunnel is too dangerous to rebuild anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the way I see things is that the trains would start in Westernport right by McDonald's where the old WM station is, and head as far north as Lonaconing. The line north of Lonaconing all the way to the old Borden Shaft Mines is really the one that's the most tricky for them to pull off. That stretch of rail hasn't seen any traffic since the late 90s at least, and the track and infrastructure is gone in certain spots along that portion of the route.
Poorly managed, how? Record passenger counts each year since 2021, increased revenues each year, passenger cars getting significant upgrades and improvements, better relationships with the regional businesses and political entities; Jack S. did a very good job for a limited 1990s operation. WMSR is a much larger business than AC. From an operating point of view (and have you ever been responsible for operating a heritage railway?), 1309 works reasonably hard going uphill, and would just drift rather noiselessly downgrade back to Cumberland-- there's no show in that!!
@@danielfoster3642 but 4501 barely fits on the turntable at TVRM, in fact she overhangs the turntable so severely that they can only turn her one way or she’ll hit things out the outside of the table. 1309 actually fits better on the Frostburg turntable than 4501 does in Chattanooga.
IMO for what it's worth, get 734 rebuilt and send that 1309 piece of junk back to the B&O museum. There's something seriously wrong with 1309 and I would rather not be around it (when it blows up). Just my opinion. I know, opinions are like a__holes, everyone has one.
Two things
1. this explains EVERYTHING
2. your voice completes the video, keep up the good work!
The diesels providing dynamic braking on the return trip has saved them so much money and time not having to replace brake shoes. No more braking for 16 miles downhill every time. Not to mention the wye in Ridgeley is basically no man’s land, no way they want to bring 1309 back there every single day just to turn it. So there is really no need for the turntable now.
Be easier just to dig out a new turntable somewhere if you think about it.
Great video, your information is 100% correct. This has been one of the best videos explaining the situation to date. Bravo to you!
Another thing to consider is that the track going into the turntable crosses a road. This road will have to be ripped up and repaved with a new crossing installed. To add to this the road in question is a snow emergency route so doing the work in the WMSR’S “off” season in the winter nearly impossible. With the alignment needed ripping most of the Frostburg track up this would cut access to Frostburg for a minimum of a week or two in the middle of summer.
Another thing to consider are much longer trains than 734 was pulling and most of the time the rest of the train is in the foul line for the switch
I really hope they can fix this problem someday as seeing the turntable being not used is just unfortunate.
They still use the table. Just not for. 1309
Ik, I’m just hoping they hoping they still do eventually.
It’s not happening
I would say that building a wye would be the solution, which would allow locomotives like the 1309 to turn around without having a turntable to turn around.
@@T128Productions that’s more infrastructure they would have to build, which is spending more money for an engine that has already cost them millions
Well, that answers my question. It's interesting that the hinge doesn't allow for any vertical flexing. Perhaps that was a feature only on higher-speed articulated locomotives. I know Challengers and N&W Class A had them.
They just weren't thinking when they made this purchase. I know it's different management but seriously, when 1309 needs to go down for a rebuild, they need something a bit more practical.
I don't think theres any issue. I visited in October of 2023, and I don't think there's anything wrong with how WMSR is running it now. 734 is also going to be restored and continue turning on the turntable like before. 1309 was way to much money for the railroad to just dump.
@@SouthernKansasRailfan It wasn't a smart purchase from the get-go. To quote one of my favorite movies, "They were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they never stopped to think if they should." 😂
At least 1309 has some connection to the Western Maryland, 734 is just an LS&I connie.
No connection. It's ex C&O.
@@Sleeper____1472 There's no connection between the locomotive and line. Thanks for proving my point.
I remember riding in the cab of 734 as she was turned at Frostburg, a highlight of my ride.
Wow I never knew that. Thank you for sharing. I am glad that 1309 has been running but I was there one time on that railroad and 2015 with my mom and my grandparents it was 734’s last year we got lunch in a café at Frostburg .therefore we did not watch the locomotive turn around as we went up to the hill to eat somewhere before we came back for a return trip back to Cumberland
Very interesting. Nice video.
nice show john
Are you telling me it’s that expensive for the track work just as much or more to restore 1309? That is unbelievable.
It’s not so much just the track work, it’s working with Frostburg politicians to shut down a busy road, and close it for weeks. Hiring an engineer to level out the grade, and find time in the busy WMSR schedule to do the work as they’re running year round.
I see the old tunnel, is the line ever going to extend from frostburg, in the future?
No
Unfortunately, the right of way is built over just outside of the tunnel.
The grade crossing adjustments would also be involved.
Very nice, like 🤩 !!!
The wiki joke was gold 😅👌
The cost to relocate and correct the degree of curvature would be in the range of 5-7 million.
1309 is actually nicknamed "Super Choo". Some idiotic anonymous user just added the nonsensical "Mountain Mommy" on the Wikipedia page for no reason whatsoever.
Quick question; what happened to 734 is she getting a 1472? Sold? Storage?
She's in storage, getting ready to be restored 🙂🚂
What happened to Mountain Thunder?
1472 FRA inspection
The best possible outcome in the future is the elimination of the Turntable and a 2.2 miles of track laided between the Frostburg station and the current end of the Georges Creek Branch. That way they have a complete railroad, ignoring tge expensive of the tunnel. Then find a new place for the turntable in Westernport.
Honestly, it'd be rad if MDOT could act on their plan to extend MARC Brunswick Line trains to Cumberland. And then if WMSR wants to principally run the George's Creek Branch, the Frostburg line could become the terminus for a couple of those MARC trains. I'm sure the folks in Frostburg wouldn't mind being able to take a direct train to more places, & WMSR wouldn't mind the extra tourists taking the train in from the rest of the state.
So thought process here, lower and move the turn table a bit so the curve is less and so is the grade
Also prohibitively expensive
@joneau261 but a lot easier then possibly relaying a whole grade
@@richardjayroe8922 the easiest option is what they’re doing, just having the diesel lead on the return trip.
@@joneau261 I never said it was the easiest for operation, but rather the easiest for a solution that allows them to run the steam engines as they want, on the head end of each train in both directions
Why not just back up the hill and have the steamer facing foward for the downhill?
That is exactly what they do
@@joneau261 oh cause the video showed 1390 facing uphill and the backing down
@@doubleutubefan5 they don’t need the extra power going downhill, it’s all uphill they need the power. Also, the wye in Ridgely needs work, which is why we haven’t seen an east facing 1309 for a photo special so far.
@@joneau261 ill take your word for it. I used to live out that way and ride that line but I live in the Midwest now so visiting Cumberland is expensive
👍👍👍👍👍💪💪💪🤝🎉🎉🎉🎉
There are several issues with extending the old C&P line back down to Westernport md. First the tunnel doesn’t meet existing standards for today. The tunnel is timber lined and has been out of service for at least 100 years. So rehabilitation of the tunnel would be approximately 10 million on the low end. To correct a severe drainage issue that resides with in the tunnel. Best would be the former right of way was built over with an apartment complex on the west side of it. Further down the line Interstate 68 buried the line near midalothian md. Neat would be after that obstruction is the former right of way reverted back to the adjacent property owner’s and a local strip mining and or landfill operation. Past all the hurdles in the way. It would costly to undertake this endeavor. Th only way for it to happen would be if the state was to take eminent domain for the completion. That is not going to happen in today’s environment. The senic railroad doesn’t haul freight at this point in time. I don’t see them hauling coal from that region since the mines have been worked out a long time ago. There is a possibility of having local businesses in the westernport that could possibly generate traffic for the line in the future. Then another issue arises as for csx to regenerate the former interchange with the westernport/ Mc coole md. They had one a few years ago whe the former westvaco plant was working.
The two lines are never going to connect each other. The Frostburg Tunnel is too dangerous to rebuild anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, the way I see things is that the trains would start in Westernport right by McDonald's where the old WM station is, and head as far north as Lonaconing. The line north of Lonaconing all the way to the old Borden Shaft Mines is really the one that's the most tricky for them to pull off. That stretch of rail hasn't seen any traffic since the late 90s at least, and the track and infrastructure is gone in certain spots along that portion of the route.
With longer trains comes more power and unique issues.
Heck yeah mountain mommy.
Mountain mommy is crazy
Bypass the turntable and just keep going through the tunnel.
1309 is too big for the Frostburg turntable.
its obvious
Mountain mommy 🤨
Perfect video🤌
And I don’t say that lightly.
Thank you.
All I will say is it was better as Allegheny Central. Jack ran a wonderful operation. WMS seems poorly managed to say the least.
Poorly managed because getting any steam engine onto the turntable damages the running gear?
Poorly managed, how? Record passenger counts each year since 2021, increased revenues each year, passenger cars getting significant upgrades and improvements, better relationships with the regional businesses and political entities; Jack S. did a very good job for a limited 1990s operation. WMSR is a much larger business than AC. From an operating point of view (and have you ever been responsible for operating a heritage railway?), 1309 works reasonably hard going uphill, and would just drift rather noiselessly downgrade back to Cumberland-- there's no show in that!!
they could just build a y
They already have a Wye in W.VA, look at the map in frostburg, there is no possible location for a Wye on the side of a mountain.
And the governor of Maryland just cut the budget for support of WMSRR which will make its finances more tenuous..
Kunde Lights
Simple: 1309 is just too big to fit on the turntable.
Clearly someone’s never seen 4501 on the turntable at TVRM…
@@CaptainCrutch I have (several times); it's a tight fit, but the 4501 always gets turned on that table!!
@@CaptainCrutch The difference is that 4501 is a 2-8-2, and 1309 is a 2-6-6-2. 4501 could fit on the Frostburg turntable quite easily.
@@danielfoster3642 but 4501 barely fits on the turntable at TVRM, in fact she overhangs the turntable so severely that they can only turn her one way or she’ll hit things out the outside of the table. 1309 actually fits better on the Frostburg turntable than 4501 does in Chattanooga.
IMO for what it's worth, get 734 rebuilt and send that 1309 piece of junk back to the B&O museum. There's something seriously wrong with 1309 and I would rather not be around it (when it blows up). Just my opinion. I know, opinions are like a__holes, everyone has one.
Why would it blow up
I agree , I hate this locomotive and is too huge for this line , send it back to Baltimore.
What, exactly, is wrong with it?
Please tell us. The FRA has obviously passed this locomotive for operation. The boiler test was given the green light. What's wrong with it?
1309 actually has a sliver of reason to be in Maryland unlike 734.
@BlueCometProductions