Is Wood Movement a Myth? Analyzing 30 Years of Data

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  • Опубликовано: 3 июл 2024
  • Support What we do at the Katz-Moses Tools Store: www.KMtools.com
    Is wood movement a myth or just misunderstood? I read the Forest Service Product Laboratories 508 Page, “Wood Handbook - Wood as an Engineering Material,” to find out. It has 30 years worth of data and studies and I have learned how to calculate EXACT WOOD MOVEMENT without any specialty tools (just easy math) anywhere you or your furniture is in the world. I even put all the things you need in a FREE PDF on my website. I think people get so wrapped up in wood movement that they stop to consider that most people don’t really know how much wood moves so they default to teaching that it is a lot. Plus, location matters a lot. To combat the misconception that every project you make is going to explode like a hand grenade I did about 100 hours of reading to make this video. Let me tell you, it is probably less than you think. To be entered into our monthly tool giveaways, please tag us on Instagram when you finish your project at @jkatzmoses and @katzmosestools
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    The Forest Service's Forest Product Laboratories, Wood Handbook - Wood as an Engineering Material (508 Pages of Awesome) www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...
    Moisture Metter amzn.to/3ESeXvR
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    Time Stamps
    Intro The Truth about Wood Movement - Is it a Myth 0:00
    Why Does Wood Expand and Contract 1:40
    Explaining the Formula Types of Wood Movement 4:40
    The Formula Terms and Coefficient Number 6:30
    Calculating Moisture Content WITHOUT ANY TOOLS and EMC 10:05
    My Point is: Don’t Freak Out! 13:03
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Комментарии • 324

  • @katzmosestools
    @katzmosestools  2 года назад +11

    Support What we do at the Katz-Moses Tools Store: KMtools.com
    Free Formula, Data and Tables to Calculate Wood Movement* shop.kmtools.com/3mSMMXr
    *The Forest Service's Forest Product Laboratories, Wood Handbook - Wood as an Engineering Material (508 Pages of Awesome)* www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fpl_gtr190.pdf
    *Moisture Metter* amzn.to/3ESeXvR

  • @Lincolnstww
    @Lincolnstww 2 года назад +27

    I can't express enough how much I appreciate going through all the effort so you could drop the mic on Turdburgler - I love a good grudge. Great value add video as always dude.

    • @CeeJayThe13th
      @CeeJayThe13th 2 года назад

      Why don't you do the same topic but do it with your signature humor?

    • @Lincolnstww
      @Lincolnstww 2 года назад +1

      @@CeeJayThe13th I think Jonathan has covered this perfectly.

  • @MrLelo337
    @MrLelo337 Год назад +179

    Awesome book that gives you step-by-step photos ruclips.net/user/postUgkxTNB_zFBSnTo_O1PqfVUwgi7ityw0JlKt and directions to make every day project. I can see myself making a few of these projects and giving them as housewarming and holiday gifts!

  • @BlackHoleForge
    @BlackHoleForge 2 года назад +25

    I worked with my father in the construction industry for several years. Understanding how your material reacts to the weather it's just part of building. I was told to always leave 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch on the outside edges of the room to allow for the expansion and contraction of the wood during the winter and summer months. I was told to do the same thing when we're making cabinet faces. Make the dato grooves deeper on the sides of the frame, so the panel in the center can expand and contract properly. An old wood worker told me that back in the day they used tack cut nails to deal with it. They use them because they could Bend with the expansion. He said if someone didn't account for the expansion and also use screws, after time to screw could just snap off, because screws are hardened.

  • @charleswestwooddesign4320
    @charleswestwooddesign4320 2 года назад +10

    I want to say thank you! - Around 2 months ago I bought your shop apron (bought from the UK and arrived in less than a week and at a frankly incredible price for the excellent quality)... but the story... the reason for buying it is that I was upgrading to a professional table saw and my previous little site saw had given me a kickback once on some dowel and left me with a mean little bruise.
    The thank you comes in 4 days ago however, I was ripping large lengths of 6x3 walnut. On one of them, the weight tilted the stock about half a millimetre and bam, the saw splintered the wood and flung it back into me, practically lifted me off my feet and threw me on the floor. It left me winded beyond belief with a large black and blue bruise on my upper stomach and a graze on my arm where the splintered end glanced off the apron and cut me across the forearm. I can say with absolute certainty that without the apron absorbing the blow and the thick material in the way, I'd have a broken rib or two and possibly even have been punctured by the 6 foot splinter that broke off. This is the biggest endorsement I can possibly make for the product. Not only is the quality incredible for the price, it genuinely could save your life in your workshop. So many of us work alone, often out in the garage or workshop or even out away from anyone, we need to be safe and your apron kept me safe! So thank you! I can't wait to buy literally everything else you make!

  • @toddulery
    @toddulery 2 года назад +37

    Jonathan, this is really great stuff. What a great reference to have. Really appreciate all the time you put into videos like this. Cheers!

  • @badger2897
    @badger2897 2 года назад +15

    I agree the topic is brought up a bit too much, for most pieces it isn't an issue. Honestly its a matter of how long you want the piece to be in use for. I restore antiques and while most pieces will be fine for decades eventually the wood will move into the least stressed position which is usually twisted for plain cut boards. It also becomes more complicated, for example when the environment inside a cabinet is different from the outside. Ultimately if you want something to last as an heirloom, the timber selection / orientation need to be well thought through.

  • @ohiomp7606
    @ohiomp7606 2 года назад +7

    Love seeing the science behind things! I see this mostly impacting something like hardwood flooring, where not accounting for seasonal expansion could cause the flooring to buckle.

  • @bboeckman
    @bboeckman 2 года назад +2

    Swear to God it is videos like this that keep me coming back and supporting your channel. I'm only ever a hobbiest, making things for side profit and fun, but knowing the care and effort you out into this is just brilliant. I love your videos. Keep it up!

  • @fab186
    @fab186 2 года назад +14

    I'm a chessboard maker and I learned about wood expansion on my 3rd board. Thankfully #2 was my close friend so he wasn't an unhappy customer when the frame popped open due to the panel expanding

    • @TheSnekkerShow
      @TheSnekkerShow 2 года назад +1

      Chess boards are how I learned this the hard way as well.

    • @cuebj
      @cuebj 2 года назад +5

      Reading this with feet up on coffee table with chess board (¼" × 2" x2") white oak and red rauli, walnut surround with white oak inlay on ¾" plywood with walnut base and legs. Made at school 50 years ago, no machinery. Apart from reglueing a leg top that got bashed so it cracked, it's as good as newly made by 15-year old me. No noticeable movement. Still stands without wobble. Survived hot, dry, central heating, sunlight through windows. Proud of it

    • @fab186
      @fab186 2 года назад

      @@cuebj sounds lovely! Congrats! What region are you in?

    • @CeeJayThe13th
      @CeeJayThe13th 2 года назад +1

      @@fab186 I learned that this was possible with an endgrain cutting board so similar idea. I left the wood in my shop for a few weeks at each stage hoping that that might help stabilize it somehow (and because I'm lazy and also work a full time job with weird hours).
      It only spent a couple weeks in my grandma's kitchen before one square on the edge popped. It turns out that exposing wood to the elements in my garage is no match for the wild swings in temperature and humidity in a southern kitchen.
      My poor grandmother was beside herself over it because she was so proud of the cutting board I made her. But, I just had my grandfather put a little super glue in the crack and a year later there's not been another single issue.

    • @mm9773
      @mm9773 2 года назад +2

      And if you were a cheese board maker, you would have learned even more about wood expansion ;-)
      But you’re right of course, it doesn’t have to move much at all to pop a frame. A lot of chess boards, even eye-wateringly expensive, handmade ones, are made using veneers on a base plate made from sheet material that doesn’t move.

  • @xdacunha
    @xdacunha 2 года назад +2

    Thank you for all the work you put into this videos! Great content as always

  • @theeddorian
    @theeddorian 2 года назад +1

    Movement in North America tends to be seasonally opposite on the East and West Coasts. In California summers are dry and wood shrinks, while the winters run somewhat more humid. There are occasional failures where a piece of furniture has serious problems with movement for unknown reasons. We moved a mahogany gun cabinet from Southern California to the northern state and for some reason the doors twisted into pretzels. Coast versus interior also can be considered.

  • @tofuscramblegames5165
    @tofuscramblegames5165 2 года назад

    One of the things I love the most about your videos is that you talk about things that you don’t really have to. Going into the level 10 nerd numbers was arguably not necessary to give us the basic info, but I really loved hearing it and know it took a lot of time and effort. Keep it up John

  • @laroseauxboisrosewoodwoodw8585
    @laroseauxboisrosewoodwoodw8585 2 года назад +8

    Finaly someone says the truth about wood movement 🙏 30 plus years ago when i’ve learned that wood at 6 to 8% will only move 1mm or 1/16” . So thank you 👍🏼🇨🇦

  • @TheZooloo10
    @TheZooloo10 2 года назад

    This has gotta be the most informative video about wood movement I've ever seen. even the two simple examples of how to deal with wood movement with he table end and the checking were suuuper useful.

  • @williamweatherall8333
    @williamweatherall8333 2 года назад +2

    One thing I think is worth thinking about is that in like New England or Canada, we have massive swings in humidity INSIDE even if the outside ones aren’t that big because of the effects of heating our houses.

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +1

      I think you misinterpreted something I said or I didn't make it clear enough. You're talking about relative humidity. What makes wood move is "absolute humidity." Bridgeport, CT for example (+/- 2.7%) has less EMC (equilibrium moisture content) swings than Santa Barbara CA (+/- 3.2%) where I live. Heating your house does not affect absolute humidity (to a point) because although the moisture can absorb more moisture it doesn't. Ever get nose bleeds when it becomes heater season? This is because you massively raise relative but not absolute humidity and your skin dries out.

    • @williamweatherall8333
      @williamweatherall8333 2 года назад +1

      @@katzmosestools I don't think I misunderstood you. You were talking about the absolute humidity of the wood right? You mention exactly what I was referring to in your comment about nose and skin; the physics is the same for the drying of skin as for wood (kilns are usually hot to massively reduce the RH, right?).
      We massively reduce the relative humidity each winter, because we are heating air that has an RH of at most 100% at -20°C. The same air at room temp will be like 5% relative humidity. And we often aren't starting with saturated air. This means that the equilibrium will drive towards dryness for wood in our houses.
      What I'm driving at here is that the forestry study did outdoor air which has lower swings in RH, which will lead to less flux in the absolute humidity of the wood. Know what I mean? Yes, they are measuring absolute humidity of the wood, but that is dependent upon the RH of the environment.
      In California, where you have perfect weather, outside and inside are basically equivalent RHs, but up here it's different. 😜

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад

      @@williamweatherall8333 what city do you live in?

    • @williamweatherall8333
      @williamweatherall8333 2 года назад

      @@katzmosestools Calgary AB

    • @williamweatherall8333
      @williamweatherall8333 2 года назад +1

      @@katzmosestools anyway, you could probably use Colorado's data for it, but given that they stipulate that the wood is outside (see the top of the graphic at 12:00), it's not really useful for furniture. Ask anyone there when their drawers stick. It's not in the winter, even thought EMC on the chart seems to be equivalent through the year.

  • @collapse99
    @collapse99 2 года назад

    Really great content, Jonathan. It's a dense topic but you made it approachable. Thanks, man!

  • @VITO-Wood-and-Goods
    @VITO-Wood-and-Goods 2 года назад +1

    Such a great explanation. Thank you for taking the time and point this out and make it easy for everybody.

  • @richardgoebel226
    @richardgoebel226 2 года назад +4

    Another source book that I have found very helpful is "Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley. The revised edition was printed in 2000 by Taunton Press. I found my copy in a used book store. I don't know if it is still in print but it is a bit thinner than 508 Wood Handbook.

  • @skoomasteve6144
    @skoomasteve6144 2 года назад +1

    Thanks for another excellent bit of research!

  • @Pauken11
    @Pauken11 2 года назад +2

    Love watching your videos, Jonathan. Lots of good information, and you make me laugh.

  • @Lorddanielrushton371
    @Lorddanielrushton371 2 года назад

    Thank you Jonathan. Always good to have the sience from it. I appreciate your diligence. Plus its always a good day when you videos drop.

  • @luisssyou
    @luisssyou 2 года назад

    14:18 was the best part! I love you take the time to explain things with research, Loved the video!

  • @hotbam37
    @hotbam37 2 года назад

    I only use lumber doing remodels in bathrooms. I really appreciate the tip on looking at which side the grain is on. I never knew there was a difference. Thanks

  • @JkCanvas
    @JkCanvas 2 года назад

    Great video and answers a lot of my questions. Thank you sir for making this very understandable especially for a knuckle dragging mech turned woodworker.

  • @jasoncarroll2328
    @jasoncarroll2328 2 года назад +1

    This a great man, I have noticed a difference in the furniture I built in San Luis Obispo, CA and the furniture I’ve built in Al where I now live, which is in line with the data you’ve shared. I feel like the biggest factor for wood movement has way less to do with humidity and way more to do with milling lumber and allowing it to release the stress in the wood through that process before final dimension and assembly. I have process that I go through to combat this phenomenon, I think a good follow up for this topic would be on properly processing wood for use as it relates to movement realized in milling and dimensioning. That would be amazing!

  • @Joey.Darkwoods-Studio
    @Joey.Darkwoods-Studio 6 месяцев назад

    Great info!! Thanks Jonathan!

  • @HowIDoThingsDIY
    @HowIDoThingsDIY 2 года назад

    Awesome explanation! Very helpful!

  • @jaywuchner9342
    @jaywuchner9342 2 года назад

    Great subject matter and excellent presentation...thanks.

  • @karl_alan
    @karl_alan 2 года назад

    It's good to know about. I have only had two issues with wood movement, both of which I glued a panel into place instead of allowing it to float & in both cases, the panel split along the grain.

  • @FridayWorkshop
    @FridayWorkshop 2 года назад

    A buddy of mine wanted a planter box made. He brought over cedar fence boards that had been rained on for days. They were dripping wet. Honestly only the top that had mitre joints moved. I was surprised that the whole thing didn’t get crooked.

  • @oxcart19
    @oxcart19 2 года назад

    Thank you for providing this information in a readily accessible file and for simplifying the whole mathematics of wood movement!

  • @faizamaze
    @faizamaze 2 года назад +1

    Thanks, I've been looking for more info on this

  • @randymajor2000
    @randymajor2000 2 года назад +1

    Awesome video demonstration and discussion on wood movement . Haven’t had an explosion yet but maybe I can make it happen one day

  • @jeffhreid
    @jeffhreid 2 года назад

    Good video. I have seen cracked carcasses and split tops due to wood movement especially in old pieces. It’s worth considering especially in cross grain situations

  • @MCsCreations
    @MCsCreations 2 года назад +1

    Fantastic, Jonathan! Thanks a bunch! 😃
    That's going to help a LOT!
    Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
    BTW, I'm going to search for a humidity meter like that!

  • @moderntouchfurniture
    @moderntouchfurniture 2 года назад

    Great video Jonathan, and another reference sheet for my notebook. We never want to get that embarrassing call from a customer complaining about that beautiful dining table you made for them just cracked, or is pulling apart. My takeaway here, plan for the worst case variance on large projects, and don't sweat it so much on the small ones. I'm downloading that pdf now.

  • @saggypantsandsquats460
    @saggypantsandsquats460 2 года назад +3

    I really love these informational videos, great resource. I've always wondered though, and this seems like a good time to ask, if you seal the wood/apply finish wouldn't this prevent or severely limit moisture transfer as well leading to even less or possibly no wood movement at all?

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +4

      That was a layer of complexity I didn't want to get into because I didn't have exact data. I believe and have heard that film finishes also eliminate transfer. Good question.

  • @KuntaKinteToby
    @KuntaKinteToby 2 года назад

    Thank you for your continued epic contributions to the woodworking community!

  • @kuffyswoodwork
    @kuffyswoodwork 2 года назад

    Thank you for nerding out on this for us. I was taught to allow for 0.5-1% movement depending on how much room I had available. It's never failed me, and it seems it corresponds nicely with your own numbers at roughly 0.3%. Cheers 👍

  • @nathankostelecky419
    @nathankostelecky419 2 года назад

    Awesome in depth video! Crazy!

  • @Cadaver1actual
    @Cadaver1actual 2 года назад +1

    Great video and great tips Johnathan. Thanks for the data sheet. Also on a side note, I’m loving my apron. My hips can’t take a belt anymore so this is a great alternative. Super fast shipping to the uk.

    • @zloungeact
      @zloungeact 2 года назад

      "Can't take a belt"?

  • @JamesRibe
    @JamesRibe 2 года назад +1

    In a climate with extreme high and low temperatures like Minnesota, you could be looking at 65% RH in summer in buildings with lots of air leakage and no dedicated devices for humidity management.

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад

      I think you misinterpreted something I said or I didn't make it clear enough. You're talking about relative humidity. What makes wood move is "absolute humidity." Minneapolis, MN for example (+/- 2.7%) has less EMC (equilibrium moisture content) swings than Santa Barbara CA (+/- 3.2%) where I live. Heating your house does not affect absolute humidity (to a point) because although the moisture can absorb more moisture it doesn't. Ever get nose bleeds when it becomes heater season? This is because you massively raise relative but not absolute humidity and your skin dries out.

  • @leedobson30
    @leedobson30 2 года назад

    Techy but helpful and a little bit gutsy to dive deep - well done

  • @ramonartful
    @ramonartful 2 года назад +2

    Yeah man…fantastic video. I love reaching behind my two benches…in the summer and winter to see how much they’ve moved. One is Ambrosia Maple , the other one is Walnut. They move, but not bad.

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +1

      Thanks my brother. I thought you might like this one. Cheers

  • @rob_sykes
    @rob_sykes 2 года назад

    Jonathan, this is probably the most useful video I have seen on wood movement. Thanks!

  • @MattsTAW
    @MattsTAW 2 года назад +30

    Jonathan, great stuff, as always. As an engineer, I enjoy your data-driven approach to explaining things, as opposed to a lot of guys who use the "anal extraction method" without any support or justification. I appreciate all your efforts. Keep the good content coming.

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +1

      Great channel name. I chuckled

    • @keithmarlowe5569
      @keithmarlowe5569 2 года назад

      It's the same for all crafts. Tech says "I think the problem is X". Boss asks "how do you know"? Tech can't directly answer.

  • @SobieRobie
    @SobieRobie 2 года назад

    Wow, serious approach to the subject! Great!

  • @brewbuilds
    @brewbuilds 2 года назад

    awesome job Jonathon!

  • @adiringer1959
    @adiringer1959 2 года назад

    Thanks for the video, it clarified this intimidating topic for me.

  • @seanhollandcanada
    @seanhollandcanada 2 года назад +1

    Beautifully nerdy. I love it.

  • @TimberBiscuitWoodworks
    @TimberBiscuitWoodworks 2 года назад +6

    Thank you Jonathan for the highlight on the email! And this video is awesome, you did great explaining wood movement. It’s good to know that I’m not in danger of blowing the house up.. at least not from wood movement. 😂

  • @codacreator6162
    @codacreator6162 Год назад

    My first projects were desks built from constructed lumber. The mistake I made was not acclimating my wood before the builds. The result was a 1/4” shift on one edge. Won’t make that mistake again. And that’s what it’s all about, right? Thank you for taking the time and doing the research for this most thorough explanation. It really puts things in perspective. 😎

  • @curtisquick3954
    @curtisquick3954 2 года назад

    What a fantastic video on explaining wood movement! Thank you for all you do for the woodworking community.

  • @alph5186
    @alph5186 2 года назад

    Thank you so much! learned a lot from this.
    Also my Dovetail jig finally arrived here in Austria, its glorious. Keep up the good work!

  • @mr.smitty1993
    @mr.smitty1993 2 года назад +2

    People: Freaks out about wood movement.
    Me: Laughs in lumber mill dry kiln operator.

  • @thecanadiantradesman7916
    @thecanadiantradesman7916 2 года назад

    Best description of wood movement yet. Thanks

  • @hardnox6655
    @hardnox6655 2 года назад

    Very cool. Thanks for the info.

  • @iancoleman6352
    @iancoleman6352 2 года назад

    Awesome video with a lot of cool info from reputable sources.
    Excellent content. I wish more of youtube was like this.

  • @miketaylor9979
    @miketaylor9979 2 года назад

    What an awesome contribution to the woodworking community. Can't believe you read 500 pages on wood movement. You're a true wood geek.

  • @sgsax
    @sgsax 2 года назад

    Love it when you back up your info with science and facts. You should do one on the perils of static discharge on dust collection next. 😁 Thanks for sharing!

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +1

      We're shooting that next month with the slowmo camera

  • @nicklarson8575
    @nicklarson8575 2 года назад +1

    Hmm. I figured since I live in the desert (Utah), that we wouldn't have much movement. But according to that chart there is a 7.8% humidity difference through the seasons. That means a 36" wide walnut desk will grow over a half an inch throughout the year. That is surprising.

  • @nathanmather5954
    @nathanmather5954 2 года назад +1

    Good video but I'm not sure it really makes a lot of sense to use outdoor EMC. In MI the chart says EMC is higher in JAN than in JUL, but indoors will likely be dryer in winter because of heating. Do you know of any stats for indoor humidity ranges?

  • @davidstevenson9633
    @davidstevenson9633 2 года назад +1

    Hi from Australia love your vids mate I’ve ordered your apron from your site and can’t wait for it to arrive thanks for the great content and any hater’s out there just don’t watch the vids if you can’t handle real content

  • @purv989
    @purv989 2 года назад +2

    Betteridge’s Law: any headline that poses a question can be answered with “no.”

  • @totallynottrademarked5279
    @totallynottrademarked5279 2 года назад +2

    I think most people forget that these practices came from a time when houses were drafting messes. So in summer furniture would be sitting in 80+% humidity and in winter sub 45% reguarly. In a modern home with less than 2% air leakage when it was built this is not an issue. So long as you don't lose power reguarly.

    • @VeretenoVids
      @VeretenoVids 2 года назад

      So, in other words, my 1910 house with no a/c. 😂

  • @ZRMvoice
    @ZRMvoice 2 года назад

    I learned so much from this video. Thank you !

  • @redial5249
    @redial5249 10 месяцев назад

    Thank you for explaining wood movement as a normal person not a mathematician with a science course in the middle . hitting a sub here , thanks again .

  • @craigbowman1656
    @craigbowman1656 2 года назад

    This was great! Thanks JKM!

  • @MrBrewzr
    @MrBrewzr 2 года назад

    Cool info, thanks

  • @chriszen4128
    @chriszen4128 2 года назад

    Great and informative video. What about the tables with slabs and epoxy? Does one have to worry about movement?

  • @nolanstevenson3510
    @nolanstevenson3510 2 года назад

    Loved the call out and “mic” drop! Hilarious

  • @christobar
    @christobar 2 года назад +2

    Shout out to the good people at the Forest Products Laboratory Madison WI!

  • @JCMoorer
    @JCMoorer 2 года назад

    I love this. You’re like the Mr. Wizard or Bill Nye of woodworkers. Thanks for being you and posting these types of videos.

  • @DIYDuBItYourself
    @DIYDuBItYourself 2 года назад +1

    Interesting to know that rift to flat sawn’s coefficient is around double. Thanks JKM for the good info!

  • @michaelswain328
    @michaelswain328 2 года назад +1

    You really got me with the “I’m not that stupid” shtick 😂 This video was a really helpful video as a new woodworker.

  • @tbc5790
    @tbc5790 2 года назад

    This is amazing. I did have some problems with a dovetailed jewellery box made from maple and the inside tray was made from cherry. I finished this project in the summer of Qatar (in the middle east and it was soo humid), then it was shipped off to Dubai and a month later the tray got stuck. Because it was soo humid in Qatar I thought that it would very slightly shrink, but the wood was dry, so if anyone knows why it moved could you tell me? After watching this video I love that I can calculate the movement in tables etc. Thank You Very Much Mr. Katz Moses.

  • @robertvelovski1192
    @robertvelovski1192 2 года назад

    Great vid mate

  • @nafitron
    @nafitron 2 года назад

    Yes! I love this stuff. This is SO helpful!!

  • @64puma64
    @64puma64 2 года назад

    You are a rockstar. Thanks for making this so accessible.

  • @charlesthomas9294
    @charlesthomas9294 2 года назад +1

    Wow. My uncle worked for Forest Products Labs (in Madison) for decades. He used to tell me all the crazy stories about the wood testing they'd do. Like firing 2x4"s through brick walls and such.

  • @bloodgain
    @bloodgain 2 года назад

    Awesome run-down, JKM!

  • @dougbeach7299
    @dougbeach7299 2 года назад

    Thank you thank you thank you. This was very interesting. I learned a lot

  • @dcuccia
    @dcuccia Год назад

    This was so helpful, thank you. The one thing I was hoping for was a figure of merit for when I don't have to worry about my rigid piece cracking, which I assume is species- and grain orientation-dependent. E.g. if given the math I expect a 3/8" dowel joint mating two pieces of Red Oak ~1/2" from exposed end grain to strain by 1/16th can I just glue it up and move on, or is it likely to crack?

  • @willstutely
    @willstutely 11 месяцев назад

    First…awesome video, and awesome resource you highlighted.
    Second…I’m confused by the EMC on the chart being higher in the winter months… any thoughts?

  • @jamesmellis8766
    @jamesmellis8766 2 года назад +3

    I really enjoy how you show the details around your topics. You have become my favorite channel to follow. I have a question around finished wood. Does wood move as much once it has been sealed or finished with something such as Lacquer, poly or paint? It would seem that the wood would be less able to absorb moisture once it has been finished and thus less movement. Thoughts?

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад +1

      That was a layer of complexity I didn't want to get into because I didn't have exact data. I believe and have heard that film finishes also eliminate transfer. Good question

    • @jamesmellis8766
      @jamesmellis8766 2 года назад

      @@katzmosestools thank you for the quick reply. I have asked some seasoned woodworkers this question and get very different answers. I live in an area and see a lot of old work and I don't see many movement issues. I often wondered if it was the finish they used that may have helped keep moisture out. Thanks again for your thoughts.

    • @roderik1990
      @roderik1990 2 года назад

      It might, but honestly I don't think most finishes are enough to significantly prevent or reduce seasonal wood movement. Some moisture will still end up diffusing through the surface.

    • @katzmosestools
      @katzmosestools  2 года назад

      @@jamesmellis8766 I will say this, That lacquered table I used in the video reads much lower in moisture content than comparable walnut in my shot that is bare wood.

    • @jamesmellis8766
      @jamesmellis8766 2 года назад

      @@katzmosestools interesting. So here is what I do not understand about the whole movement process. Does moisture need to get inside the grain tubes to cause the wood to expand or just getting between the grain cause expansion? Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the mills paint the end of wood with something to prevent the wood from absorbing moisture once it has been dried? It seems like there has to be a process to reduce the woods ability to absorb moisture. Do we need to stick it in a vacuum bag to pull the finish/sealer into the wood? Are there any finishes with a small molecules that can penetrate deep enough to minimize moisture absorption?

  • @jhonnygaulke1335
    @jhonnygaulke1335 Год назад

    How thick is a desk surface?

  • @saucyonePR
    @saucyonePR 2 года назад +1

    Man this went over my head. Clear enough to follow but something I never payed attention too because I figured it wasn’t a really big deal. 95% of the furniture I build for myself is for indoor climate controlled environment so this video really opened my mind to this concept of wood movement. Thank you! Love this channel!

  • @lorihawk9046
    @lorihawk9046 Год назад

    This is very helpful thank you. I’m making an ottoman tray (as large as 32 x 32). The tray panel is made from quartersawn white oak. According to the information in this video, the seasonal movement across this panel would be roughly 1/16, so 1/32 on each side. But the problem is the tray panel includes brass accent pieces inlaid about 1.3 inches in from each of the 4 sides. The brass strips are 1/8 inch deep and 1/4 wide and there are 2 that go across the grain and 2 that go along the grain. In your opinion, could this cause the tray to warp over time?

  • @looopy2u
    @looopy2u 2 года назад +1

    How would you go about applying this to flooring? Solid and engineered for example?

    • @spycedezynuk
      @spycedezynuk 2 года назад

      If you allow sufficient gaps at the perimeter for lateral expansion/ contraction under the skirting board or trim you shouldn’t have a problem.

  • @Jack-es9xq
    @Jack-es9xq 2 года назад

    good man, good info!

  • @stevecall5744
    @stevecall5744 2 года назад

    What movement occurs in wood that is sealed with multiple coats of finish? For example, table with four or five coats of polyurethane? Unless you assume the finish is water permeable, any finish has to dramatically reduce any movement from changes in atmospheric humidity.

  • @troyclayton
    @troyclayton 2 года назад

    Very cool, thanks. Too many people who work with wood don't think about movement. I was on site in a new home when we heard what sounded like an extension ladder going down in the great room. Turns out the fir ceiling on the giant 3 season porch, installed in the dead of winter (New Hampshire), exploded one wet spring day. A section like 8 feet wide and 12 feet long came crashing down as the boards ripped free from their brads. The aftermath was a sight to behold. The GC wasn't impressed, I was glad it had nothing to do with me.

  • @walter5401
    @walter5401 Год назад

    Hi Jonathan how would wood move in a half lap join?

  • @robohippy
    @robohippy Год назад

    Well, pretty sure that kill/kiln dried wood is at 6 to 8% when it comes out of the kiln. Let it sit in your shop for a year or so, and it will be the same MC as the rest of the wood in your shop. Also, quarter sawn wood does not cup or bow like rift sawn wood does as the relative humidity changes.

  • @MrErViLi
    @MrErViLi Год назад

    Awesome information.
    Question. Wood movement is from moisture movement into and out of the wood. If the wood is completely sealed with a waterproof finish, why does the wood still move? Even with a good lacquer finish wood still moves. Would an epoxy coating prevent wood movement?

  • @alwayslearning3426
    @alwayslearning3426 2 года назад +1

    So in the example given, worst case scenario, the 40” table will move 1/8”. That’s 1/16 over half the table and a bit less than that at the location of the outboard tenon I don’t elongate holes in my tenons and have never had a problem. I guess your data back’s that up. Thanks for the proof!

  • @davidmorton8170
    @davidmorton8170 2 года назад +1

    Where wood movement inevitably comes up though, is when people fail to acknowledge it at all, binding end grain and long grain. The most common failures are breadboards glued all the way across, or cutting boards with a trim all the way around the board that traps the grain. In these situations, a tiny amount of movement may still be enough to cause a crack. So allow for the movement with smart techniques, but don’t sweat exactly how much.

    • @mm9773
      @mm9773 2 года назад

      Yes. A friend of mine has a cutting board that is built like a bread board, and after a few years of use, the middle section sticks out, it’s about a quarter of an inch wider than the bread board ends. It was made using the proper technique, so nothing has cracked, but of course it doesn’t look right anymore. Perfect illustration of wood movement.

  • @5zwoodworks
    @5zwoodworks 2 года назад

    Sweet intro analogy.

  • @mistaqil
    @mistaqil 2 года назад

    Do you have plans available for that farm house table? I love to buy it. Plan on making one soon.