Bethesda Talk - The "Simplified RPGs" Thing
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- Bethesda has been simplifying their RPGs quite a lot. Is this a good or bad thing?
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0:00 Intro
0:55 Brief history
2:31 Reasons for
5:00 Reasons against
6:41 Final thoughts 
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Update: According to Larian Studios director of publishing, BG3 actually sold "way over 10 million." This information wasn't available when I made this video and had it open for early viewing. I'm not at home to take it down and edit it. and honestly, such a small aspect probably wouldn't anyway.
Article: exputer.com/news/games/baldurs-gate-3-sales-topped-10-million/
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The positives of casualization do not outweigh the negatives at all.
Their "simplification" is more of an escape from system design
By making bad systems and braindead plots? xD
@@ChrissieBear More often, it's a simplification of their own minds
Todd Howard boasted rather proudly that they nerfed the planet-side hazard system in Starfield into nothingness because it was too much of a pain to try and balance, saying it as if was a good thing they all but removed what could have been a very interesting mechanic if done right because they lacked the ability to do it right.
I think that good designers are able to find ways to ease players into mechanics, you don't need to dumb down the game for casual players.
New Vegas has a fantastic balance for the most part, between complexity and ease of understanding.
Fr I didn't know ammo production till like 4 years after I got it
It is like Todd said about malodies in Starfield - they kept nerfing and nerfing them, until they decided that knowing you have one was worse than the effects.
Oblivion and fallout 3 were causalaztion of the rpg . Love both games but they are the start of the down hill
Replaying Skyrim right now makes me realize how shallow the rpg elements is in it. I played New Vegas for the first time last year and ever since I've been looking for games to be similar to that regarding choices and dialogue. Skyrim has literally no dialogue options and when it does it has no meaning ultimately.
I say that if you want a simple game, don't play an RPG.
I think nowadays, EVERYONE is playing games to some degree, wether its an app game, a console or a pc game. So every gaming company is gonna want to simplify things to get more ppl to spend money on their games, and playing video games is simply gonna be the norm, and we will all eventually get tired of simplified games, especially when it comes to rpg games. The want of "more complex rpg" could definitely be on the rise, hence bg3 success
It's not an issue of complexity it's an issue of DEEP AS A PUDDLE. Whatever you are making/ focusing on, DIG DEEP INTO IT! A great example; Super Mario Odyssey you are given an insane depth of movement even to the point you can play very uniquely compared to others for how you approach your experience. Each movement option having it's beautiful way you can play into another movement mechanic.
3:25
Skyrim also came out on xbox360 and Ps3
I think both larian and from software show that you don't have to dumb down your mechanics to sell really well . The problem with bethesda is that they don't seem to have a vision with their design anymore , which is why they just simplify for simplicity sake or make really baffling decisions like screwing up the exploration in starfield . I think they need a big change in management and their structure
Nah, I think you're right on the money about game designers returning to previous formulas. Not just Baldurs Gate 3, but there seems ot be a massive shift towards "nostalgia pandering". Game developers that look at past game designs that worked or just straight up old games and bringing this to the present era or just straight up remastering/remaking said old games with present QOL features. Sometimes this works well. Sometimes it's just a cheap cash crab.
I mean it's fine to simplify stuff, like skyrim did with oblivion, and 3 did with 2. My only complaint was fallout 4, because they literally just made everything worse.
I’m OK with watering down some RPG mechanics so that way new players have an easier time getting into the game. However the only thing that I really didn’t like was the dialogue wheel from Fallout 4 & that side dialogue box in Skyrim. The worst part is that anything interrupt your conversation. Also I do prefer the original level up menus from F3 & FNV but still the perk poster in F4 is pretty cool.
When they do it to an established franchise it's a bait and switch. Keep the game complex, put in a casual mode that automates the complex parts for casuals. Don't punish and alienate your core audience.
Sandwiching all skills in the perk tree was the thing that got under my skin 😢
I'd like a game somewhere between the hand holding of Skyrim/Oblivion and Morrowind. Get rid of level scaling (or at least make it run in a way it's not immediately noticeable). Some of the most fun I had in Morrowind was finding an enemy I wasn't ready for. Heavily scale back random leveled loot so that I get that rush of finding something I'm not supposed to have yet. Bring back more complex character mechanics so I can make the character feel more unique by being able to play with agility and strength etc. My biggest issue is the waypoint system. Somewhere between Morrowind and Skyrim would be nice. I hate the floating arrow that hovers over the exact chest you're looking for. But I don't want to have to write physical notes to remember directions when I don't play for over a week. Having a marker that gives an approximate location with a couple lines of journal for me is perfect
Simplifying doesn't necessarily mean dumbing down. We should acknowledge that the robust 3D environments, physics, and direct control input, completely negate the need for most traditional RPG mechanics, which predate digital gaming entirely. Please, let these things go, they do not define role playing.
Also, trying to make specific builds in Bethesda games is a needless limitation of your experience. You can't tank, because there aren't other characters to tank for. If you don't make a generalist build, you're sacrificing large chunks of gameplay, unless you like starting over repeatedly or using console commands
Solid video! I agree with allot of your sentiment.
Though I genuinely feel Starfield made a concise effort to offer more traditional RPG elements. Which I really appreciated.
Still not perfect, what is really? But I actually feel like I’m playing an RPG again.
So after having played through Skyrim, Fallout 3, New vegas, 4 (twice) and part way through Starfield recently and on vanilla and completing Fallout 1 as well I don't inherently feel it is all just simplification. I'll grant it has had various amounts of success and not every element is great (scaling is defintely a weak point) but honestly I feel like my character in Fallout 4 is far more unique then 3/NV, not in dialog but in actual play. And the systems in Skyrim are way better then the stupidity in Oblivion. Honestly outside of isometrics, I don't feel like the tiny number improvements in skills systems work as well, but in Skyrim the perks made me feel like I was building a character. Starfield the dialog implementation so far has been an improvement, even though I do have my gripes, overall as an rpg I don't think it is bad.
Really I think in the end the difference is they are making an RPG-action game, I do think the rpg comes first, but the rpg elements are more in through how you choose to interact with the world (which quests you choose to do), and most importantly how your character actually plays mechanically. Again, not everything is perfect, still too many boring perks, bullet sponges, and "magic" damage, but overall I think the systems aren't as bad as many say, honestly Fallout 4 has my favorite of all rpg mechanics and if they had improved dialog systems like what 76 ended up with or starfield's then at least for my taste it would be about perfect.
But this would need to be alot longer to cover all the details, I just think there is a difference between simplified, and acceessible and that cutting the useless boring parts of the "number" systems we could end up with mechanically improved rpg;s
ideally to me I would love to see effectively Fallout 4's systems, with a bit more effect from the attributes, like agility affecting movment speed, and instead of magic dmg number improvbements make the weapon perks affect your actual gun handling, so you start with terribly aim, and recoil control but as you improve your perks in certain firearms your dmg doewsn't improve, but your handling does, so you can get more hits on target but you still have to play your character properly to succeed not only your character being stupidly OP doing alkl the work for you.
New Vegas isn’t that bad, it’s easy to understand and make a build if you have common sense and can read for more than 5 seconds. My main issue with it is that you only get 25 perks instead of thirty. Also speech checks are way too common.
Speech in FNV was too powerful imo, I prefer FO3's speech
I just dont want over the head cameras and point and clicking, i wanna feel not watch
Aaaaaand nice vid bro
glad you did this topic my friend. hope you are doing well. :)
It’s like 5E to DND, when you make a game for everyone, you lose your target audience, which is typically the bulk of consumers
New Vegas is really shallow compared to Divinity os2 and bg3. Idk why people say its so complex
I think it's interesting to compare and contrast the success of Skyrim and modern RPGs like Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3. Skyrim released during a time when *everything* was being streamlined and simplified. This was the age of the Call of Duty Xbox 12 year old. Skyrim owes its success to how brainless Bethesda made it, even compared to Oblivion. It was perfectly in tune with the zeitgeist. Nowadays that zeitgeist has totally reversed, people want more difficulty and more complexity, hence the success of BG3, and the failure of Starfield. But even Starfield has the most RPG mechanics of a Bethesda game since Morrowind, just nowhere near the level people actually want these days.
My ideal scenario is that they’re dumb downed to get a wide base and then in elder scrolls 6 they’ll go back to stronger rpg elements
Im delusional
There's really no sign that they will but I'll hope and pray with you
They go full 80s 8 bit gaming and explain fuck all. That would kinda be interesting. You would have to figure it out yourself.
I defend Bethesda on this 100%. Simplified RPGs have a place.
If you’re being charitable, I think “streamlining” is more accurate for their games, but since Bethesda’s biggest strengths were world design and roleplay through mechanics, the extent the streamlining has taken place has only hurt them so far
Isn't level-scaling MORE immersive than not? Some humans aren't more or less bullet resistant than others, so it makes sense to me that I can't achieve godhood and reign destruction upon the lesser mortals of lower levels or wind up an ant in front of high level humans. The best decision Bethesda ever made was to make their products mod-friendly so that you can cater the game to your own tastes.
Not really, a raider shouldn’t have more health than a super mutant master
@@letsdothisshiat1162 Why you disagree when I am saying the same thing?
My real problem is stuff like "playing a role".
In Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion you needed to do a class, which was specialized in specific stuff, like being a warrio or a mage.
And while yes, you can level up magic as a warrior, it takes a while and you're not as efficient compared to your mayor skills.
ROLE Playing Game
There's a battle mage class you know or do custom do not be afraid to experiment in an rpg
Also if your playing on steam or gog there is manule that comes with the game
Also don't spread your points to thin.
@@christophercullen8839The point is, as the other comment states, is that new bethesda titles aren't ROLE playing games.
@@lechuzaarg2404 I was referring to Daggerfall and older titles since that's what your comment was about. not trying to be rude I was just trying to help.
@@christophercullen8839 And you weren't rude, and it's actually a helpful comment
Thx and don't worry hahaha
Modern Bethesdas idea of streamlining rpg mechanics is takeing an axe and hacking away features until the game barely resemble an rpg each new Bethesda game is a step down in mechanics from the last.
Instead of hiring a doctor they have a butcher and he could not be happer to keep hacking wacking and slashing.
You don't need every aspect of an RPG to create something enjoyable to an average genre's fan.
Skyrim and fallout 4 only did well because of mods and brand recognition
Just stop buying their games. To easy...
The Bimbofication of Bethesda
If you combined Fallout 3, NV, 4, Skyrim, and Oblivion you ge the perfect Bethesda game
You can be so many different things in Bethesda games... good, snarky good, bad... y'all are haters, that's enough game for everybody.
😘
You can say no but thats really just means yes even if no mean no means yes
This is epic bait
Wow so much choice
Good video