'This is so fascinating! I'm loving these auto-tune episodes, I'm learning so much. I love that you don't just say "this person can't sing" , you give us the context of real people in real situations that might have a bad day, be sick, can't hear themselves in a large venue, or recorded something in good faith only to have it altered after the fact. Thank you so much for these!
Exactly my thoughts. I stumbled across this video.as you do🤷♂️. His explanation is very informative and actually points out the youtubers and tiktokers who do videos on things like this just to elevate their own sad ego or to get more like/shares. When really they've no idea what they're talking about. 🤔. I've now subscribed to his channel. 👍
This has been so eye opening! I have always been a huge critic of Madonna as her livee performances leave a lot to be desired for me, personally. But, given that she is a huge, international star and regularly plays at gigantic venues, now I get it. I'll never criticize her again! I love Fil's videos.
Regarding a singer hearing herself and her accompaniment: I remember seeing the great jazz singer Sarah Vaughan performing live on the Tonight Show decades ago. Somewhere in the first verse, she stopped and told the band she couldn’t hear either herself or the band. Adjustments were quickly made and she continued, flawlessly. It should be noted that the show allowed Ms. Vaughan to do this because she was one of the greatest voices of all time. Incidentally, Autotune and Sarah Vaughan would have been a nightmare. She had a four octave range from mild baritone to soprano and one of her trademarks was embellishing melodies by effortlessly sliding up or down an octave or more.
John what a perfect comment. Sarah Vaughan was one of the greatest voices of any generation. I would suggest Fil analyze her live performance of 'Misty' from her concert on Swedish TV from Stockholm circa '64. I believe it to be one of the greatest vocal performances ever captured on film.
John Kelly - Thanks for sharing that. Sarah Vaughan is a giant in the pantheon of Jazz vocalists. Our generation was lucky to be witness to these performers... and at that time, the Tonight Show was LIVE!
@@johnj2763 I have seen that live performance before but you reminded me and I watched it again. Truly amazing. Thank you. May I recommend another RUclips video: that of Ella Fitzgerald accompanied by only one musician - Joe Pass. Again, many thanks.
I'd rather hear anyone perform with imperfections than with auto tune. Live should mean live. I love the things that make it special to only that moment in time. Also, can we take a minute to appreciate that Ol' Blue Eyes performed like a pro even when he basically lost his hearing. Talk about no frame of reference.
@MOBIEUS MOVIES Except autotune is almost never used deftly or artistically. I'm extremely sensitive to tones, maybe because I've always had poor eyesight, and autotune as it is used predominantly is like taking a 3 dimensional sculpture and rendering it in 2 dimensions. It honestly obliterates all texture to my ears. It _feels_ startling and uncomfortable. Does it not feel ...squashed and lifeless when you hear it applied?
the reason why she uses autotune live is to recreate the studio sound… and she also genuinely likes how her voice sounds with autotune since she’s been using it as a vocal effect since her 2000 album Music
Debbie harry did a performance in the 00s on the today show where she cannot hear herslef and she looks cross and that made her a bit flat she did keep in tune ish but it wasn't perfect. Whitney was the same in 2008 in kazakstan where her monitor boxes were not working well and there was feedback etc. People kept saying she sang badly - she didn't really.
'If you have performed in big venues...' Thank you for your faith, Fil, but I only ever perform for my neighbours from behind my flat walls, hoping they won't start a petition for my eviction... Great analysis as ever btw. Remember watching Madonna that year on Eurovision and I'm grateful somebody has explained to me what was happening there 🙂
I started to play the song and turned it up load and tried to sing. You were right I couldn't hear myself. The bad thing was everyone else could. My wife thought I was dying and ran out to my workshop. The look on her face was priceless. Thanks, Fil. I watched the video halfway through yours. I thought it was pretty good. The fact that it was such a dramatic performance I believe it kind of slips by. Great take on it.
Fil, wow! This kind of “big venue” problem would NEVER have occurred to me. You’re the only channel who could do this kind of analysis. Few, if any, music RUclipsrs would have your kind of technical/music theory knowledge, PLUS real world performance experience to see what Madonna was dealing with. You are constantly blowing my mind! Every video of yours makes me even more proud to be a Patreon supporter.
.... I agree, great comment. Best one I've read here on this particular video. I am not even a big fan of hers, ( sans a few songs) but yes, it must have been something to deal with, and she was 61 at this time. ( I'm in my late 60's, I get it , lol,) Yes, proud to be a Patreon Supporter as well !
Fil, you mentioned how a performer can panic when they can't hear their accompaniment. It happened to me in 1962. So I stopped the performance, said I could not hear the pianist, then we restarted when the issue was corrected. All these many years later and I can still remember that moment of panic.
Bravo Fil! Madonna "ain't my groove", but I feel sorry for her struggles here. And, If I go to a live concert, I PAY for a live concert, not lip sync or auto tune mechanics. Live voices can go off-key, so a huge venue really increasing the difficulty. I was a soprano in a huge college choir singing the Hallelujah Chorus at The Tarrant County Convention Center in the 1970s, and if your "neighbor" goes off key, it can mess you up!. If someone goes to live concerts, and off key happens.. get over it! Thank you for another superior analysis.
I LOVE how respectful you are here - and instead of bashing an older woman (like others seem to enjoy) - you considered some more logical reasons as to why those notes were off. I would have thought she'd have muscle memory having sung that song live SO many times, but really it just shows how much singers need to be able to hear themselves and the effect on their vocal performance when they can't.
You might think that muscle memory would work, but most singers are used to adjusting to match the music rather than rigidly singing a song the same way every time. They are much more likely to use muscle memory when they are singing a cappella. Though even then, they can use a reference note in their in ear monitors to get started.
I’m not really a Madonna fan, but I just figure everyone can have a bad day. But I agree with you in that she probably just can’t hear herself. She’s a great performer, and even though I’m not a huge fan, I’ve got to admire her talent and willingness to hang in there and do her best.
Her music and voice has always sounded fake or edited. Maybe that's why she sang with such a weird tone for so long... she doesn't have the confidence to sing legitimately.
She's always said she is not the best singer but she is an amazing performer! Her live performances are amazing. Some vocals if hers as really amazing though. Watch "sooner or later" live at the Oscars for her best live vocal!
I don't mind the odd pitch correction on a studio album, but I do like my live experiences to be live, warts and all included so I can appreciate the musicianship. If I wanted an alternate and sterilized copy of the studio album I might as well have listened to the studio album from the comfort of my chair in the first place.
Just want to say that I love how you aren't here to tear people down. Most of your videos are just about admiring great music, and even when you're critical, it's constructive and thoughtful. While most of the internet is about snark and trash talk, you give a very fair minded point of view, like you've delivered here...anyone who's played a lot of live gigs knows this feeling...not being able to hear yourself and just hoping for the best. I'm very happy my worst moments on stage weren't captured (at least not to my knowledge).
Thank you for this insightful analysis. Madonna is to be commended. Between the options of lip syncing, live autotune, and walking out onstage singing purely live, she chose the riskiest and boldest option. It's hard to imagine what she must have been going through at the time (or, as you said, if she even knew how off she was at times) but the fact that she defied the critics and sang live (and I'm assuming she didn't have to) is something that comes with experience and confidence. P.S. I love those trills you put in. Would love to hear you do a cover of "Like a Prayer." It's such a great song.
I love how you described Madonna's choice to sing live as the 'riskiest and boldest' option. Until Fil's analyses, I never knew there were so many other options. Good or bad, it's been a wake up call for me. And isn't it strange that we are surprised that Madonna chose to sing' live' at a' live' performance?!! I always thought that was the way it was supposed to be, having attended many concerts over the past 40 yrs. seeing the best of the best, it never occurred to me that I was seeing anything less than a pure, live performance.✌️
@@cindypowers4993 Sad, isn't it? There WAS a time when that was true. 40 years ago that was certainly the case. Lip syncing "live" shows became more common in the 90s with artists who danced while singing, like boy bands and certain solo artists whose performances relied on a stage production and wireless headsets as opposed to bands who played instruments and stood at mic stands. It was very controversial at times. As far as audiences go, some people got used to it. Others didn't mind in the first place. It was occasionally scandalous. But at some point people accepted it. Then live autotune began to be introduced more and more into concerts. That wasn't nearly as apparent as artists lip syncing so it slipped through and got to the point that most people probably had no idea how common it was. Being in the industry I have many friends who work on live concert production and I occasionally am allowed to sit near the audio consoles in the house or in the wings where much of the processing takes place and can see it in action. When used carefully, as Fil has done in some demonstrations, it really isn't noticeable to most people. It's very common today.
@@larry4111 I have been to her concerts five times throughout the years - when she sings live, she sings really well. We also love her for her stage artistry which involves heavy choreography - in which case, she'd sing to backing tracks etc. And that's fine by her fans. So yes, all is fine, really. Those criticising her tend to not be her fans anyway. I didn't pay to hear her sing 100% live only. I pay to see Madonna as a entertainer packaged with thought provoking choreography, lyrics and, entertaining banter and creativity in delivery of the artistic sensibilities. Go see Adele, rock bands, choirs, etc if people want 100% singing. Nothing wrong with that either. Just pick what type of concerts they want to see and what type of artists they want to follow. Nothing wrong with any choice. Just unfair to be telling artists how we want them to create and express their artistry.
@@hoxtondean9855 Were you responding to me? It's hard to tell on RUclips comments sometimes. Because I don't disagree at all. The topic is really autotune, not singing to tracks. Your entire comment essentially deals only with lip syncing and singing to tracks vs. singing "live," which isn't even the topic of discussion here. It's as if you were responding to a comment criticizing Madonna's lip syncing. If you were responding to me (it's hard to tell), perhaps you ought to read my comments again. I only mentioned lip syncing as a bridge to the discussion of autotune but nowhere did I criticize it. I certainly don't fault Madonna for doing so in performances. I have nothing but praise for her. That said, ironically, you said, "Go see Adele...if people want 100% singing" but Fil has already shown in his videos that Adele is often autotuned, as well. Unless you consider an autotuned live performance to be "100% live," then that isn't even accurate.
@@larry4111 Larry, thank you for your response, it was quite thorough and so interesting! Terrific breakdown of the distinction between artists who sing and dance (boy bands,etc ), and live bands who stand at a mic. Sounds like you've had some super up front and close knowledge and experiences! Thanks for sharing! I learned a lot!!
If you've never sung when you can't hear yourself, then you just cannot know how difficult this show must have been for her. And I'm not even a fan of hers. I also don't blame her for reuploading with pitch correction, since she must feel at least some kind of responsibility towards her fans and wanted to provide a recording that was listen-able. I'm sure there's a good bit of pride in the re-upload, as well, since no singer wants a publicized recording of them singing off pitch.
It's the worst! I have excellent pitch and muscle memory after 30 years of singing, so my pitch is usually still pretty accurate if I can't hear myself (not perfect, but if I know the song really well I'll be okay). The bigger problem is the tendency to over-sing in a desperate attempt to hear yourself. That's just a set up for injury. (And sounds like crap!) I usually work out some hand signals with whoever is running the board just in case I need adjustments on the fly.
Madonna went to Israel to deliver a message. The peasants didnt get to hear the prophecy because they just following the pipper. Madonna doesnt have to prove anything. She is busy building schools, hospitals, and orphanges. She has bigger concerns than trying to sing like an American Idol contestant.
Being a Grateful Dead fan, forgetting lyrics, missed notes, voice cracking is GREAT, because it's authentic live. And most critics (and music critics) on YT have never written a song, let alone a hot song. Great review of the truth.
How difficult it must be to perform while doing multiple things at the same time especially in a huge venue ! As I was watching your analysis I’m embarrassed to admit that I was expecting to hear that Madonna was lacking in some way. Your fair and logical approach was how I knew that I had a negative expectation and it made me change how I looked at it. I will be more thoughtful in future judgments, thanks!
Your musical knowledge never ceases to amaze me! Fil I ask myself It would be interesting to hear Madonna input on what she was going through on that night performance. Then You brough up that very same question toward the end of your analysis. 👍
As an eurovision fan I remember clearly listening to this performance on TV an wondering what was going on. The performance sounded really peculiar and if I remember correctly, there was speculation whether or not Madonna was going to perform at all. I always thought that there might not have been enough rehearsals because of that.. It was really nice hearing the isolated singing! And I would always prefer the natural voice over the tuned one, because to me music is about emoting and taking the listener for a journey - not about ”perfection”❤️
I so appreciate the way you weave through genres, without prejudice. Country, pop rock, easy listening. Good job great analysis .What a pleasure it is going through your archived historical takes.
As someone who doesn’t listen to a lot of her music , at the end of the day vocally , she’s being real. I respect that immensely. We’re all human and we all have good days and the not so great days . Even when you put a finger in one ear , and you sing along with music ,it sounds different . Your right we really don’t get to hear her true vocals with everything else mixed in along with it . That must be hard professionally, not hearing what you may have heard earlier or in a different venue . Yes I think Madonna should give you some personal feedback. It would certainly help people understand, and perhaps even make new fans ,who don’t know her music. ❤️ Great Analysis.
Free Spirit With Nature ??!! Really. So you respected her immensely when , along with one of her husbands, she issued her guests with rifles, so they could kill animals on their estate. Oh ok
@@raven_ous2585 To be honest, I don’t know anything about her personal life at all ,nor do I read Magazines / gossip. I was only referring to the vocals that I heard Fil analyzing. I can’t condone anyone’s lifestyle if I don’t know anything about it ., nor is it any of my business. I love animals and we’re talking about music here , not rifles or killing . 🙂
This is fascinating to watch!, I saw Madonna live in 2006 was in the front row, she was absolutely phenomenal, she wouldn't be where she is without hard graft and raw talent, people like to forget that she paved the way for many female artists who followed.
I saw a televised (or maybe it was online) concert she did back in the 80s or 90s. Wow! When you consider how much she was dancing, along with the singing! I couldn't believe how great she sounded while doing all that dancing. Amazing!
@@CabinFever52 absolutely! she was approaching 50 the time I saw her and danced non stop while singing live, she was incredible I have to give credit where its due.
@@voulafisentzidis8830she was the first one in absolute control of her career, so yes, many will follow or at least tried to follow her example. She was and still is the boss. There you have it. ✌️
I just want to thank you for being honest and fair with all these is-it- autotune-or-not investigations. Madonna has had aggressively overcritical critics since 1984 and still has them to this day. People actually upset that a 63 year old woman posed in fishnets rather than a pants suit or whatever they think she should wear. 🙄
Everything pointed to a monitoring problem - one any of us who have performed live will sympathsise with - so credit to Madonna for persisting through because it's completely disconcerting having a poor reference. Beyond that, as her in-ear mix may have been very different from the backing track we heard, it's impossible to know what exactly was going wrong. Thanks for the videos!
What I appreciate is you do this with total respect, and you explain why things go wrong. For someone like me, who can't sing a note without killing someone else...it's a complete mystery. Keep up the good work!
Everybody already said it beautifully, about your objectivity and your ability to explain always more about the “why”, so I just wanted to thank you for your videos, I learn so much!!! This is so interesting (in all ways) and helping my understanding of all this world and industry, especially currently: I always sang without being amplified, and now it’ll happen in a week so… such a wonderful synchronicity to find your channel, and absolutely grateful for your shares, insights and content!
You made me change my critical mind about this performance.I understood it was finally an unfair accident what happened there for her.Appart from your special knowledges,i realize you are an exceptional and distinctive nice man.Also thank you for that Abba-Wembley live track detailful analysis some time back, btw.
She's been doing this for nearly 40 years. She 63 & she's still working as hard as she did in the 80s. I've got to respect her for that. Most performers today are all auto tuned or they lipsync. Great video.
@@raven_ous2585 yes, respect. she’s a fucking living legend. one of the last living legends from the 80s, along with Phil Collins, ABBA and Janet Jackson
@@raven_ous2585 WTF do you mean Respect? Do my research? I'm her age. I've been listening to her from day one. I'm still buying her music. I do respect her. Don't be so disrespectful.
Live should be live. I want authentic voices. I think it’s a shame that Madonna’s technical people didn’t take all the other factors (background vocals/instruments etc) into account. Isn’t that their job? Thanks for another great analysis Fil. I think you’re right, she literally couldn’t hear herself. Sad.
As a vocalist who does not use auto-tune, I can attest to the difficulty of using in ear monitors without a thorough and expert sound check and sound engineer. I prefer to hear the house rather than have a mediocre in ear sound. Props to vocalists who sing live. Others aren’t singers in my opinion... Just performers. #LiveSinger for life. 🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽
I would not be happy expecting a true live performance to find out later that it was mimed and/or simulated in other areas. Frankly, there is little reason to go to live shows if the show is not actually live. If paying concertgoers don't mind, that fine-but it should be clear if the show is live or only partially live. The line is not as clear as we would like, but miming is very clear and I don't have as much interest if it is not actually live.
Madonna was I believe the 3rd biggest selling music artist of the 1980s. I was never a big fan but she was not known for her singing ability but rather the quality of her entire performance.
Let's all remember that she was 61 when she sang this. We all lose our hearing as we age and we can't really do anything about it. Kudos for Madonna for having done this at all. Edit: I'm truly happy for you who still have good hearing. I've suffered from tinnitus all my life and it has taken its toll. I no longer enjoy music as I did when I was young. That is very painful for me as I am a music lover.
@@MyMags8 rickbeato did a good video about the hearing issue with aging. I dont think in this case with Madonna that is what it is. but the vast majority do end up off. It goes beyond just saying hearing loss though. the brain ends up compensating and teh person thinks they are in tune when they are not and in almost all cases they are flat by a semitone. in this case its the loud backing vocals i think. when those come in I can tell if it was me i wouldnt be able to hear myself.
I'm a Composer/ Multi - instrumentalist /Singer etc. Also 84 years of age. My hearing is excellent according to my Ear Doctor. And I still sing and play in tune. You can check it out on Y/T.
Very interesting! I will remember this vid on Sunday morning in church trying to sing and not sound obnoxious. I have to say Madonna's full voice prevents her from ever sounding bad. It is such a textured and powerful instrument that it always sounds good. I cannot believe all the energy this woman has created and experienced in her life. Magnificent.
The question of what people would prefer out of a live performance, against using backing tracks & faking it was one of the key parts of my master’s thesis. Overwhelmingly people want the real thing, & an honest show
That was a awesome view! Appreciate your efforts and quality content you keep producing! I have never seen anything as good or as amazing as your Channel Fil, always a enjoyable time! Ty friend. Cheers!
When I was younger one of my coworkers (who also sang in her church choir) mentioned to me that one of the ways she practices her singing was with earplugs in & she plugged her nose so that she could not hear herself. That’s how she learned to get herself to the right pitch, by eliminating her ability to hear & therefore it heightened her ability to sense (by vibration?) where her pitch was at. I always thought that was so ingenious.
Another infamous problem with apparent out of tune singing at Eurovision was when the UK's entry Jemini sounded really flat during their live performance in the 2003 contest, causing them to get the UK's first nul point, and afterwards, after huge amounts of grief from the media, and online, I think they did outright say that they couldn't hear themselves properly, so I'd love for this channel to analyse that performance and see if that claim was true, or if it was something else that was happening.
When you pointed out that Madonna couldn’t hear her own voice, I thought of people I have known who had hearing issues, they couldn’t hear themselves so they couldn’t modulate their voice, sometimes it would be to loud or not loud enough or very flat. Thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis.
Brilliant explanation for laymen like myself, who have known something has sounded wrong for years, but couldn't tell you why. Also, thanks for highlighting how tough it is for these singers on a live stage with all of these sounds coming through and making it nigh-impossible to hit a note. I have much more respect for these artists since I've been watching these, and much LESS respect for whoever it is that makes the decision to apply Autotune.
By the way, love the commentary and analysis. Makes you appreciate artists like Santana’s ‘Soul Sacrifice’ at Woodstock, or Prince at the Super Bowl in the middle of the rain, or Tina Turner at Wembley Statdium, or any artist playing on a big stage!
This is an exceptional analysis of a great performer who happens to have a moment of difficulty hitting her notes. Fil, I appreciate your insights into this performance and pointing out what we are hearing and some of the reasons why. You are the best at breaking down these performances and helping us understand what we are hearing, and more importantly, why! I am slowly working thru all of your analysis videos and finding them all informative. 🎼🎸🤘💖
Fascinating analysis of artists. This might outside your realm but as a classical violinist we are always pursuing perfect intonation. Jasha Heifetz claimed he played perfectly in tune. I think it would interesting to see how close classical string artists play in tune.
This was very interesting & makes me feel a little sorry for her. TBH I think a lot of us Eurovision fans were already angry with her & less prepared to be forgiving. She messed around the organisers by refusing to commit to the competition until literally 2 days before the final, so after the live singing had taken place for the semis, refusing to sign the contact after haggling extensively & didn't even turn up to the venue until as late as possible. Then she performed as she did. She was put to shame by the competitors & other interval acts., in spite of acting like a diva & treating the organisers & fans with derision & disdain.
You mentioned Madonna losing her reference point when the guys came in singing in the lower register. As you suggested, their voices may have produced resonant frequencies. However, there may be another explanation. Many years ago I studied sound in order to work as a sound technician when I wasn't playing in a band. One of the first things I learned was, as people get older and their hearing starts to be affected, they tend to lose the higher frequencies first. The lower frequencies actually sound louder. I'm wondering if maybe the that is a reason the guy's voices interfered with her ability to hear herself. Or, at the very least, it may not have helped her situation any.
Interesting and valid point. As with age, our voices change along with our hearing. As a performer, and a very famous one at that, it must be more of a challenge.
@@Lamster66 Um, not. The typical hearing loss in geezers like me starts at or around 4k. Go to Costco Hearing Aid center & talk to the people who really know. And, yes, when you lose 4-8 K, the midranges and lows sound proportionally louder.
@@MrLuigiFercotti Also, generally, older people have hearing loss starting at about 4K. musicians start earlier. I shot a big rifle a few times a deer rifle 30 out six with 180 grains of powder with no ear protection, and my right ear had that high and roll off when I was 35. My left ear caught up when I hit about 55. Yes, there are certainly other physiological changes that happen along the way, but pretending that the ear itself doesn't change is hogwash.
Great analysis, Fil. I watched that performance live. I could feel she was struggling somehow. In the auto-tuned version, she sounds like a chipmunk. I love Madonna, especially her album 'Ray of Light' and I really enjoy when she sings pop ballads like 'Live To Tell'. Thanks! 🖤🤘🏽
This is a terrific discussion. I was watching a video recently of up and coming singer-songwriter-guitarist, Jackie Venson, who not only plays while singing, but often plays and sings the same notes in unison, which is hard to do. She uncharacteristically went off pitch and was clearly struggling to get it back. This is a great explanation for what likely happened.
Wow Fil. 👏 Your good! I find this so interesting. Wouldn't it be cool if Madonna contacted you and explained what she thought. I think your so right you would have to be in her position to fully understand what is happening.
I was a singer and I’ve had this very situation happen! My night when sideways when my voice fell into my old spot as background vocalist. So, while I was supposed to be lead vocalist, I had more practice on harmony. That’s where my voice went. I had the male back vocal in my ear without my own. My voice went straight to harmonizing with his. It was a thing. It happened. We all went on with the night and the rest of our lives. P. S. Madonna started as a drummer in a band.
Great video, brings context to the vocal on the night. I did watch it live and I did think that she looked a bit uncomfortable or had lost her way for some reason. Your video explains exactly why I thought that. Really fascinating video. Thank you for putting it together.
It would be nice if Madonna even sent you a short email stating if your analysis is what actually happened. But I'm glad you explained the technicalities. Otherwise I would not have understood that even pros like her could have a bad night.
Love this channel. I'm a massive music lover but not a musician so it's all a dark art to me. This insight truly is fascinating. Newly subbed and watching through these videos one after another. Awesome content, thanks man.
Good evening Fil&everyone,hope everyone is doing well.just wanted 2 say thank u 4 ur live stream last nite,I luv how friendly&welcoming ur fans r.im having a gr8 50th birthday.now 2 watch the video💝💝😻😻xxxxx
I requested this recently and you responded so quickly 👍 Thank you so much for this analysis. Now I can see all the issues that most likely occurred "on the night", and I find myself viewing it with more compassion than I did before. I do count myself as a longtime Madonna fan, but I must admit this performance had me wondering if she was dropping the ball with not maintaining her voice. Adding to that, her most recent 3 albums use autotune to the maximum which has left me cold, so I rarely listen to them. All the same, I appreciate your explanation of this performance and I can understand the panic she must have felt. Thanks again 🙏💗
Very interesting analysis on Madonna. I have never heard her sing flat and lose her reference point in any songs before and I agree, it had to have been the size of the venue in which she was performing in. We all know that Madonna can sing and I too would love to have her take on what was going on that night but alas it's not meant to be. Thank you for a great and carefully chosen explanation of what actually went on.
Having sung live without any feedback audio vs live with in-ears I set myself, the difference in what I sound like to the audience is staggering. I'm almost always flat if I can't hear myself over the backing due to trying to sing louder to hear. whereas if I can hear myself, I can move my voice to exactly where it belongs. This makes me appreciate all the more the Deaf girl that was on (insert name of competition show) who had taught herself to sing while watching a guitar tuner and reading the music.
Sadly I never really could hear my own voice on stage so in school productions I always arranged to stand next to someone who : 1 was singing same part I was 2 knew the words 3 knew the music ! I really ought to send her a cheesecake or one of those fruit of the month club packages so popular right now. She (Marie Grimm, was Kachelmeyer) went on to sing at weddings and funerals. I got an office job and bought CDs and sing in the car (my sanctuary).
I believe that you already know the position that I am going to take: I will choose raw and real over prepped and perfect nine ways from Sunday every single time. If I was going to fork out the massive sum of filthy lucre that it takes to buy a concert ticket these days, I'd be a fool to spend it on listening to a computer sing. I prefer a live performance by a living human being, errors and all. Even those errors are something to remember. This was indeed an interesting video and I thank you for it very much. If I could choose another artist to analyse in the way you did Madonna, it would be Alanis Morrisette performing a song from her debut album. That recording was most definitely NOT autotuned. All the best and stay well. 😎🎤🎸✌️
This reminds me of an Aerosmith performance I saw at some awards show years ago. Everyone talking about how bad Steven Tyler’s voice was, but through the whole thing you could see him tapping on his in ears… he clearly couldn’t hear himself at all
Live is live. I expect imperfections. If I want to listen to an artist’s “perfect rendition” mixed in a studio I’ll just listen to the CD and save the money. Any auto-tuning should be required to be posted as “80% live music”.
I'd just like to throw in here that I'm a Dylan fan and have seen him live more times than I can remember. If he used auto-tune, he wouldn't be Bob Dylan. He'd be Kanye West (Ye) doing a Dylan impression. I'd rather hear an artist working at singing and having an off night than someone faking it.
As a 65 year old singer(Madonna is now 66) and sound engineer in a 4 man rock n roll band, I can control my own fate to a large degree. We all have personal mix controls for our IEM's but there still have been times when I can't hear my voice for one reason or another. Now, this is usually in front of 50 people in a bar but the panic is indescribable. I can't imagine performing at the level Madonna was and keeping it all together. Respect, Ms Ciccone.
I'm really loving these! Can I recommend having a sign on the auto-tune side of the screen, saying whether we're seeing the "live" or "auto-tuned" version of the song? Thanks for your knowledge, Fil
I believe he doesn't label it on purpose. He wants us to visually try to figure it out, and get to the point of recognising it without being told. It's pretty obvious.
First of all, I want to thank you for this detailed analysis and proving my own thoughts about Madonna's performance back in 2019. I always felt like there had to be a technical issue regarding her vocal performances. All my friends went with the easy explanation that she's a terrible live perormer, but I emmediately could tell something had to be wrong with her earphone..I'm so glad you took the time to sorten this out. Second of all......we share identical black hoodies;-) Thanks man, I love this stuff
Thank you for this insightful and respectful reaction and for diving into this and making it clear what really happened. I was there and heard the organization was hell. I had contact with one of her dancers to meet, but he couldn't because they were rehearsing day and night with Madonna. He said that there were difficulties with the organization. Then I saw it live and you could hear and see that she had technical problems, but it didn't sound as bad as on TV. Also the registration and direction was bad, the camera didn't move or was too late, where it should, at some points. Which made it all look even worse than it was. People always like to bash her all the time, which is unfair, even her 'fans' did that. But Madonna was brave enough to not mime and just sing live, no matter what.
One point I'd put out is a tip I read in an old opera book, that suggested using something to cup the sound to your ear - it vastly improves people's singing, as people end up listening to the internal sound of their voice over their external one which sounds completely different. Often people who sing terribly actually sound good in their own ears due to this quirk.
You've pretty much covered the spectrum in regards to the use of auto-tune and pitch correction. I appreciate the aspect that maybe Madonna couldn't hear herself as her performance progressed. As a singer, that's got to be terrifying. She's a seasoned artist, only she knows what the circumstances were during that performance. I would prefer a live performance, with no embellishments. I'm no fan of Madonna's, yet I applaud her efforts to sing live. Live is best, forget the rest...✌️
Hi Cindy... I don't know if you have heard of Mandy Harvey who became completely deaf by the age of 18, she a jazz singer/songwriter who plays the ukulele she also a motivational speaker. I find her inspiring. may you enjoy. Mandy Harvey "wows" the crowd with her delightful personality, inspirational story and incredible acapella rendition of "Smile" at the Invisible Disabilities Association Gala Kickoff Party! ruclips.net/video/DFUplx0_DVQ/видео.html
@@drewpall2598 Wow! How astonishing! Mandy's got a sweet voice. Don't know how she stays in tune, must be her musical training and her father's inspirations for her to continue on even after her hearing loss. Her speaking voice is so clear, amazing. I used to work with a woman who was deaf, and she spoke, but it was quite challenging to understand what she was saying, but we managed to communicate. Hope you are well Drew.✌️😊
@@cindypowers4993 I was born with a speech impediment, so I admire people like Mandy who has overcome obstacles in their life to achieve their dreams. I am grateful that Mother Nature has been kind to me ⛅ hope she has been kind to you as well.🧡✌😊
I feel like anyone who judged her performance as "bad" would eat their words if they heard how horrible some of the newer artists sound without auto tune, even under good circumstances.
@@raven_ous2585 I guess you never saw Madonna live? You would be be astounded by how good her voice is. And yes, I saw her 5 times live in Holland AND I am critical.
Interesting. I can't recall the 'Fan Friday' episode in which Floor Jansen (of Nightwish) answered a question about in-ears, but she definitely selects specifically what she wants to hear while performing live. And, IMO, you can't get a better live performer than her, even when she's recovering from flu - slightly nasal, yes, but still smashing it. She talks about muscle memory.
ALSO I am thrilled that FINALLY someone has explained to me the specifics of stadium performances and all of the complexities that go into the “ new” music tech and broadcasting. ❤️❤️📣🎤
I remember watching this live and it was shocking. I guess you could put it down to monitors etc but I went in to work the next day and said watch this, then the next day the youtube clips were all rectified. The problem seemed to be that she couldn't hear herself, the shenanigans the next day were another thing. Her problem was inept sound guys.
I wonder how much better these critics can do?? I’d rather hear an imperfect singer versus lip singing or someone who relies on auto tuning. I’ve seen her many times in concert and she puts on a really great powerful entertaining show. I appreciate it for what it is. 💁🏼♀️ I am not a huge fan of her style of music but I’ll see her in concert because she puts on a hella of a great show!!
Thanks, that was a good investigation. The autotune explanation some have suggested didn't really compute in my opinion, since she didn't hit the notes. I actually respect Madonna a lot more after this. It was in no way a good performance, but she did sing for real without cheating with autotune.
You always show respect for a performer whether or not you find true flaws. Too many people just try and even hope to find a reason to go against a performer.
Pitch correcting used to be just on dance records, now I hear it on country artists and indie acts. It's a shame I feel because its another step in de-humanising people and increased pressure on people to sound /look / be perfect. Its like when someone's obviously been under the knife and then flat out denies they've had any work done. I miss natural character.
Fil, you're a marvel at jam-packing these with one fascinating point after another. For me, I can live without the spectacle---give me the best possible conditions for the musician. A beautiful performance is what's really thrilling.
Roy Orbison used to just come out by himself, sit on a stool with his guitar and do his songs. And the audience would be mesmerized. Sometimes less really is more.
@@cindypowers4993 Hi Cindy! Thanks and ditto! 👍 Just imagine finally being in the audience to hear someone you've always loved and the whole thing is cluttered up with embellishment. You might leave feeling that his recordings touched your heart but hearing him in person left you cold. That's got to be wrong.
Thank you for letting me know that Donna Godchaux and I are not the only singers who've had trouble hearing themselves on a stage. For me, the problem has been worst with others too close to my ears singing the same notes I'm singing, as when my height put me in a middle row of the soprano section in the high school chorus. I wished I had a pair of invisible ear plugs to make my own voice the one I could hear most clearly, without making the girls next to me feel as if they should shut up. Thanks also for caring enough to debunk the usual misogynistic rot. I'm pushing sixty but thinking about showing my face in public again anyway, so it's nice to be reminded that not every young man in the world can be expected to attack me for opening my mouth.
Another example of why you're so great at breaking down music Fil, pitch correction and auto tune take all the feeling out of music, When doing a live performance Belt it out live, Jeff in LA USA
As a fan the whole thing was weird from the onstage pre-interview with her duet partner who said he didn't care about Madonna growing up to the obvious fact her outfit was preventing her from breathing properly. She definitely couldn't hear herself but she is struggling to breathe and anyone who knows Madonna will know that she works out very often and for her to be out of breathe just standing is shocking. I used to be in the live performances should be live but as i got older i think if you are able to record the song perfectly without auto-tune but find it difficult in a live setting i think lip syncing is fine especially if it's a concert where the artist is dancing a lot. Madonna also deleted her performance of Medellin with Maluma and that was auto-tuned too even though it wasn't off key or struggling like the eurovision performance and it has baffled fans as they auto-tuned maluma who was rapping lol
Open and fair as always. I love the vocal demonstrations you do to illustrate your point. Shows us even more that you know what you’re talking about, Fil. 👍
'This is so fascinating! I'm loving these auto-tune episodes, I'm learning so much. I love that you don't just say "this person can't sing" , you give us the context of real people in real situations that might have a bad day, be sick, can't hear themselves in a large venue, or recorded something in good faith only to have it altered after the fact. Thank you so much for these!
I love them as well
You expressed exactly what I was trying to find the right words for!
Exactly my thoughts. I stumbled across this video.as you do🤷♂️. His explanation is very informative and actually points out the youtubers and tiktokers who do videos on things like this just to elevate their own sad ego or to get more like/shares. When really they've no idea what they're talking about. 🤔. I've now subscribed to his channel. 👍
Then add a long tour with having 3-6 gigs per week.
This has been so eye opening! I have always been a huge critic of Madonna as her livee performances leave a lot to be desired for me, personally. But, given that she is a huge, international star and regularly plays at gigantic venues, now I get it. I'll never criticize her again! I love Fil's videos.
Regarding a singer hearing herself and her accompaniment: I remember seeing the great jazz singer Sarah Vaughan performing live on the Tonight Show decades ago. Somewhere in the first verse, she stopped and told the band she couldn’t hear either herself or the band. Adjustments were quickly made and she continued, flawlessly. It should be noted that the show allowed Ms. Vaughan to do this because she was one of the greatest voices of all time.
Incidentally, Autotune and Sarah Vaughan would have been a nightmare. She had a four octave range from mild baritone to soprano and one of her trademarks was embellishing melodies by effortlessly sliding up or down an octave or more.
John what a perfect comment. Sarah Vaughan was one of the greatest voices of any generation. I would suggest Fil analyze her live performance of 'Misty' from her concert on Swedish TV from Stockholm circa '64. I believe it to be one of the greatest vocal performances ever captured on film.
John Kelly - Thanks for sharing that. Sarah Vaughan is a giant in the pantheon of Jazz vocalists. Our generation was lucky to be witness to these performers... and at that time, the Tonight Show was LIVE!
After your comment I decided to check out exactly what you were talking about....
WOW!
Thankyou
One of the most complete, impressive vocalists period. Such a treasure.
@@johnj2763 I have seen that live performance before but you reminded me and I watched it again. Truly amazing. Thank you. May I recommend another RUclips video: that of Ella Fitzgerald accompanied by only one musician - Joe Pass. Again, many thanks.
I'd rather hear anyone perform with imperfections than with auto tune.
Live should mean live.
I love the things that make it special to only that moment in time.
Also, can we take a minute to appreciate that Ol' Blue Eyes performed like a pro
even when he basically lost his hearing.
Talk about no frame of reference.
@MOBIEUS MOVIES Except autotune is almost never used deftly or artistically. I'm extremely sensitive to tones, maybe because I've always had poor eyesight, and autotune as it is used predominantly is like taking a 3 dimensional sculpture and rendering it in 2 dimensions. It honestly obliterates all texture to my ears. It _feels_ startling and uncomfortable. Does it not feel ...squashed and lifeless when you hear it applied?
You didn't hear her live on Eurovision :p
you are not artist!
the reason why she uses autotune live is to recreate the studio sound… and she also genuinely likes how her voice sounds with autotune since she’s been using it as a vocal effect since her 2000 album Music
Debbie harry did a performance in the 00s on the today show where she cannot hear herslef and she looks cross and that made her a bit flat she did keep in tune ish but it wasn't perfect. Whitney was the same in 2008 in kazakstan where her monitor boxes were not working well and there was feedback etc. People kept saying she sang badly - she didn't really.
'If you have performed in big venues...' Thank you for your faith, Fil, but I only ever perform for my neighbours from behind my flat walls, hoping they won't start a petition for my eviction...
Great analysis as ever btw. Remember watching Madonna that year on Eurovision and I'm grateful somebody has explained to me what was happening there 🙂
I started to play the song and turned it up load and tried to sing. You were right I couldn't hear myself. The bad thing was everyone else could. My wife thought I was dying and ran out to my workshop. The look on her face was priceless. Thanks, Fil. I watched the video halfway through yours. I thought it was pretty good. The fact that it was such a dramatic performance I believe it kind of slips by. Great take on it.
Fil, wow! This kind of “big venue” problem would NEVER have occurred to me. You’re the only channel who could do this kind of analysis. Few, if any, music RUclipsrs would have your kind of technical/music theory knowledge, PLUS real world performance experience to see what Madonna was dealing with. You are constantly blowing my mind! Every video of yours makes me even more proud to be a Patreon supporter.
Thanks for the kind words!
Pretty cool though right? ❤️
.... I agree, great comment. Best one I've read here on this particular video.
I am not even a big fan of hers, ( sans a few songs) but yes, it must have been something to deal with, and she was 61 at this time. ( I'm in my late 60's, I get it , lol,)
Yes, proud to be a Patreon Supporter as well !
100%.
Fil, you mentioned how a performer can panic when they can't hear their accompaniment. It happened to me in 1962. So I stopped the performance, said I could not hear the pianist, then we restarted when the issue was corrected. All these many years later and I can still remember that moment of panic.
Great idea! However Eurovision song contest you can not stop anything even if you hear absolute zero lol
Bravo Fil! Madonna "ain't my groove", but I feel sorry for her struggles here. And, If I go to a live concert, I PAY for a live concert, not lip sync or auto tune mechanics. Live voices can go off-key, so a huge venue really increasing the difficulty. I was a soprano in a huge college choir singing the Hallelujah Chorus at The Tarrant County Convention Center in the 1970s, and if your "neighbor" goes off key, it can mess you up!. If someone goes to live concerts, and off key happens.. get over it! Thank you for another superior analysis.
I LOVE how respectful you are here - and instead of bashing an older woman (like others seem to enjoy) - you considered some more logical reasons as to why those notes were off. I would have thought she'd have muscle memory having sung that song live SO many times, but really it just shows how much singers need to be able to hear themselves and the effect on their vocal performance when they can't.
You might think that muscle memory would work, but most singers are used to adjusting to match the music rather than rigidly singing a song the same way every time. They are much more likely to use muscle memory when they are singing a cappella. Though even then, they can use a reference note in their in ear monitors to get started.
Relax simp, what do think old woman are above being critized?
@@justinamenta7241not here to argue 😊 all love.
💯.
Singing live is a whole other animal. With the backup live prob sounds fine.
I’m not really a Madonna fan, but I just figure everyone can have a bad day. But I agree with you in that she probably just can’t hear herself. She’s a great performer, and even though I’m not a huge fan, I’ve got to admire her talent and willingness to hang in there and do her best.
Her music and voice has always sounded fake or edited. Maybe that's why she sang with such a weird tone for so long... she doesn't have the confidence to sing legitimately.
@@cacvpc i mean her purpose in life was never to become a singer - she was a trained dancer but she simply couldn’t live off of dancing
She's always said she is not the best singer but she is an amazing performer! Her live performances are amazing. Some vocals if hers as really amazing though. Watch "sooner or later" live at the Oscars for her best live vocal!
Madonna is NOT a good singer. She's mostly marketing. And yes, that's a talent too.
I don't mind the odd pitch correction on a studio album, but I do like my live experiences to be live, warts and all included so I can appreciate the musicianship. If I wanted an alternate and sterilized copy of the studio album I might as well have listened to the studio album from the comfort of my chair in the first place.
Just want to say that I love how you aren't here to tear people down. Most of your videos are just about admiring great music, and even when you're critical, it's constructive and thoughtful. While most of the internet is about snark and trash talk, you give a very fair minded point of view, like you've delivered here...anyone who's played a lot of live gigs knows this feeling...not being able to hear yourself and just hoping for the best. I'm very happy my worst moments on stage weren't captured (at least not to my knowledge).
Thank you for this insightful analysis. Madonna is to be commended. Between the options of lip syncing, live autotune, and walking out onstage singing purely live, she chose the riskiest and boldest option. It's hard to imagine what she must have been going through at the time (or, as you said, if she even knew how off she was at times) but the fact that she defied the critics and sang live (and I'm assuming she didn't have to) is something that comes with experience and confidence. P.S. I love those trills you put in. Would love to hear you do a cover of "Like a Prayer." It's such a great song.
I love how you described Madonna's choice to sing live as the 'riskiest and boldest' option. Until Fil's analyses, I never knew there were so many other options. Good or bad, it's been a wake up call for me. And isn't it strange that we are surprised that Madonna chose to sing' live' at a' live' performance?!! I always thought that was the way it was supposed to be, having attended many concerts over the past 40 yrs. seeing the best of the best, it never occurred to me that I was seeing anything less than a pure, live performance.✌️
@@cindypowers4993 Sad, isn't it? There WAS a time when that was true. 40 years ago that was certainly the case. Lip syncing "live" shows became more common in the 90s with artists who danced while singing, like boy bands and certain solo artists whose performances relied on a stage production and wireless headsets as opposed to bands who played instruments and stood at mic stands. It was very controversial at times. As far as audiences go, some people got used to it. Others didn't mind in the first place. It was occasionally scandalous. But at some point people accepted it. Then live autotune began to be introduced more and more into concerts. That wasn't nearly as apparent as artists lip syncing so it slipped through and got to the point that most people probably had no idea how common it was. Being in the industry I have many friends who work on live concert production and I occasionally am allowed to sit near the audio consoles in the house or in the wings where much of the processing takes place and can see it in action. When used carefully, as Fil has done in some demonstrations, it really isn't noticeable to most people. It's very common today.
@@larry4111 I have been to her concerts five times throughout the years - when she sings live, she sings really well. We also love her for her stage artistry which involves heavy choreography - in which case, she'd sing to backing tracks etc. And that's fine by her fans. So yes, all is fine, really. Those criticising her tend to not be her fans anyway. I didn't pay to hear her sing 100% live only. I pay to see Madonna as a entertainer packaged with thought provoking choreography, lyrics and, entertaining banter and creativity in delivery of the artistic sensibilities. Go see Adele, rock bands, choirs, etc if people want 100% singing. Nothing wrong with that either. Just pick what type of concerts they want to see and what type of artists they want to follow. Nothing wrong with any choice. Just unfair to be telling artists how we want them to create and express their artistry.
@@hoxtondean9855 Were you responding to me? It's hard to tell on RUclips comments sometimes. Because I don't disagree at all. The topic is really autotune, not singing to tracks. Your entire comment essentially deals only with lip syncing and singing to tracks vs. singing "live," which isn't even the topic of discussion here. It's as if you were responding to a comment criticizing Madonna's lip syncing. If you were responding to me (it's hard to tell), perhaps you ought to read my comments again. I only mentioned lip syncing as a bridge to the discussion of autotune but nowhere did I criticize it. I certainly don't fault Madonna for doing so in performances. I have nothing but praise for her. That said, ironically, you said, "Go see Adele...if people want 100% singing" but Fil has already shown in his videos that Adele is often autotuned, as well. Unless you consider an autotuned live performance to be "100% live," then that isn't even accurate.
@@larry4111 Larry, thank you for your response, it was quite thorough and so interesting! Terrific breakdown of the distinction between artists who sing and dance (boy bands,etc ), and live bands who stand at a mic. Sounds like you've had some super up front and close knowledge and experiences! Thanks for sharing! I learned a lot!!
If you've never sung when you can't hear yourself, then you just cannot know how difficult this show must have been for her. And I'm not even a fan of hers. I also don't blame her for reuploading with pitch correction, since she must feel at least some kind of responsibility towards her fans and wanted to provide a recording that was listen-able. I'm sure there's a good bit of pride in the re-upload, as well, since no singer wants a publicized recording of them singing off pitch.
Hahaha what a lovely and sweet nature you have!
It's the worst! I have excellent pitch and muscle memory after 30 years of singing, so my pitch is usually still pretty accurate if I can't hear myself (not perfect, but if I know the song really well I'll be okay). The bigger problem is the tendency to over-sing in a desperate attempt to hear yourself. That's just a set up for injury. (And sounds like crap!)
I usually work out some hand signals with whoever is running the board just in case I need adjustments on the fly.
Madonna went to Israel to deliver a message. The peasants didnt get to hear the prophecy because they just following the pipper. Madonna doesnt have to prove anything. She is busy building schools, hospitals, and orphanges. She has bigger concerns than trying to sing like an American Idol contestant.
@@eduardochavacano Then why go on the show?
@@carr0760 Absolutely correct! It's hideous when you can't hear yourself ‼️
Being a Grateful Dead fan, forgetting lyrics, missed notes, voice cracking is GREAT, because it's authentic live. And most critics (and music critics) on YT have never written a song, let alone a hot song. Great review of the truth.
Their rough moments make their golden moments shine that much brighter.
I agree!!
How difficult it must be to perform while doing multiple things at the same time especially in a huge venue ! As I was watching your analysis I’m embarrassed to admit that I was expecting to hear that Madonna was lacking in some way. Your fair and logical approach was how I knew that I had a negative expectation and it made me change how I looked at it. I will be more thoughtful in future judgments, thanks!
Your musical knowledge never ceases to amaze me! Fil I ask myself It would be interesting to hear Madonna input on what she was going through on that night performance. Then You brough up that very same question toward the end of your analysis. 👍
As an eurovision fan I remember clearly listening to this performance on TV an wondering what was going on. The performance sounded really peculiar and if I remember correctly, there was speculation whether or not Madonna was going to perform at all. I always thought that there might not have been enough rehearsals because of that.. It was really nice hearing the isolated singing! And I would always prefer the natural voice over the tuned one, because to me music is about emoting and taking the listener for a journey - not about ”perfection”❤️
I so appreciate the way you weave through genres, without prejudice. Country, pop rock, easy listening. Good job great analysis .What a pleasure it is going through your archived historical takes.
You make an excellent point regarding her not being able to hear her voice.
As someone who doesn’t listen to a lot of her music , at the end of the day vocally , she’s being real. I respect that immensely. We’re all human and we all have good days and the not so great days . Even when you put a finger in one ear , and you sing along with music ,it sounds different . Your right we really don’t get to hear her true vocals with everything else mixed in along with it . That must be hard professionally, not hearing what you may have heard earlier or in a different venue .
Yes I think Madonna should give you some personal feedback. It would certainly help people understand, and perhaps even make new fans ,who don’t know her music. ❤️ Great Analysis.
Free Spirit With Nature ??!! Really. So you respected her immensely when , along with one of her husbands, she issued her guests with rifles, so they could kill animals on their estate. Oh ok
@@raven_ous2585 To be honest, I don’t know anything about her personal life at all ,nor do I read Magazines / gossip. I was only referring to the vocals that I heard Fil analyzing.
I can’t condone anyone’s lifestyle if I don’t know anything about it ., nor is it any of my business.
I love animals and we’re talking about music here , not rifles or killing . 🙂
This is fascinating to watch!, I saw Madonna live in 2006 was in the front row, she was absolutely phenomenal, she wouldn't be where she is without hard graft and raw talent, people like to forget that she paved the way for many female artists who followed.
I saw a televised (or maybe it was online) concert she did back in the 80s or 90s. Wow! When you consider how much she was dancing, along with the singing! I couldn't believe how great she sounded while doing all that dancing. Amazing!
@@CabinFever52 absolutely! she was approaching 50 the time I saw her and danced non stop while singing live, she was incredible I have to give credit where its due.
How did Madonna pave the way for other female singers? Females have sung for decades - in abundance in the 50s and 60s.
@@voulafisentzidis8830she was the first one in absolute control of her career, so yes, many will follow or at least tried to follow her example. She was and still is the boss. There you have it. ✌️
I'm an amateur folk singer. I've performed in coffee houses. Auto-tune would ruin folk singers! We can't sound too professional!
@@riinak7212 Near Boston
@@riinak7212 No, and sadly I never got to hear him, even though he's somewhat nearby.
I bet someone has autotune program that can make it sound like folk. Snaps it out of tune
You don't need it sweetie xx
I just want to thank you for being honest and fair with all these is-it- autotune-or-not investigations. Madonna has had aggressively overcritical critics since 1984 and still has them to this day. People actually upset that a 63 year old woman posed in fishnets rather than a pants suit or whatever they think she should wear. 🙄
If she ever did, she certainly now couldn’t care less about the opinions of the uninformed masses.
I wouldn't want to see my grandma looking like . . . ooh, all around ooh
Everything pointed to a monitoring problem - one any of us who have performed live will sympathsise with - so credit to Madonna for persisting through because it's completely disconcerting having a poor reference. Beyond that, as her in-ear mix may have been very different from the backing track we heard, it's impossible to know what exactly was going wrong. Thanks for the videos!
What I appreciate is you do this with total respect, and you explain why things go wrong. For someone like me, who can't sing a note without killing someone else...it's a complete mystery. Keep up the good work!
I think you're right. Madonna doesn't sing off key live. Even before her vocal training, she had a strong voice and sang on key in her live shows.
Everybody already said it beautifully, about your objectivity and your ability to explain always more about the “why”, so I just wanted to thank you for your videos, I learn so much!!! This is so interesting (in all ways) and helping my understanding of all this world and industry, especially currently: I always sang without being amplified, and now it’ll happen in a week so… such a wonderful synchronicity to find your channel, and absolutely grateful for your shares, insights and content!
You made me change my critical mind about this performance.I understood it was finally an unfair accident what happened there for her.Appart from your special knowledges,i realize you are an exceptional and distinctive nice man.Also thank you for that Abba-Wembley live track detailful analysis some time back, btw.
She's been doing this for nearly 40 years. She 63 & she's still working as hard as she did in the 80s. I've got to respect her for that. Most performers today are all auto tuned or they lipsync. Great video.
Respect ??!!. Do your research
@@raven_ous2585 yes, respect. she’s a fucking living legend. one of the last living legends from the 80s, along with Phil Collins, ABBA and Janet Jackson
@@raven_ous2585 WTF do you mean Respect? Do my research? I'm her age. I've been listening to her from day one. I'm still buying her music. I do respect her. Don't be so disrespectful.
@@AlleyandGrey Birds of a feather comes to mind 🤣🤣🤪🤪
Live should be live. I want authentic voices. I think it’s a shame that Madonna’s technical people didn’t take all the other factors (background vocals/instruments etc) into account. Isn’t that their job? Thanks for another great analysis Fil. I think you’re right, she literally couldn’t hear herself. Sad.
As a vocalist who does not use auto-tune, I can attest to the difficulty of using in ear monitors without a thorough and expert sound check and sound engineer. I prefer to hear the house rather than have a mediocre in ear sound. Props to vocalists who sing live. Others aren’t singers in my opinion... Just performers. #LiveSinger for life. 🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽
I would not be happy expecting a true live performance to find out later that it was mimed and/or simulated in other areas. Frankly, there is little reason to go to live shows if the show is not actually live. If paying concertgoers don't mind, that fine-but it should be clear if the show is live or only partially live. The line is not as clear as we would like, but miming is very clear and I don't have as much interest if it is not actually live.
Madonna was I believe the 3rd biggest selling music artist of the 1980s. I was never a big fan but she was not known for her singing ability but rather the quality of her entire performance.
Let's all remember that she was 61 when she sang this. We all lose our hearing as we age and we can't really do anything about it. Kudos for Madonna for having done this at all.
Edit: I'm truly happy for you who still have good hearing. I've suffered from tinnitus all my life and it has taken its toll. I no longer enjoy music as I did when I was young. That is very painful for me as I am a music lover.
No we don’t all lose our hearing as we age. Some people lose some hearing, some lose more & some don’t lose any hearing….
@@MyMags8 rickbeato did a good video about the hearing issue with aging. I dont think in this case with Madonna that is what it is. but the vast majority do end up off. It goes beyond just saying hearing loss though. the brain ends up compensating and teh person thinks they are in tune when they are not and in almost all cases they are flat by a semitone. in this case its the loud backing vocals i think. when those come in I can tell if it was me i wouldnt be able to hear myself.
I'm a Composer/ Multi - instrumentalist /Singer etc.
Also 84 years of age. My hearing is excellent according to my Ear Doctor.
And I still sing and play in tune.
You can check it out on Y/T.
@@sociald100 Are you using a German keyboard ?
Because your THE came out as TEH, which often happens to me.
@@bobdownes162 lol no i just do that alot
Very interesting! I will remember this vid on Sunday morning in church trying to sing and not sound obnoxious. I have to say Madonna's full voice prevents her from ever sounding bad. It is such a textured and powerful instrument that it always sounds good. I cannot believe all the energy this woman has created and experienced in her life. Magnificent.
The question of what people would prefer out of a live performance, against using backing tracks & faking it was one of the key parts of my master’s thesis.
Overwhelmingly people want the real thing, & an honest show
I've always thought she's a pretty good singer and this doesn't change my mind. Love these breakdowns Fil.
That was a awesome view! Appreciate your efforts and quality content you keep producing! I have never seen anything as good or as amazing as your Channel Fil, always a enjoyable time! Ty friend. Cheers!
Thanks!
We need to bring her to your channel! :)
When I was younger one of my coworkers (who also sang in her church choir) mentioned to me that one of the ways she practices her singing was with earplugs in & she plugged her nose so that she could not hear herself. That’s how she learned to get herself to the right pitch, by eliminating her ability to hear & therefore it heightened her ability to sense (by vibration?) where her pitch was at. I always thought that was so ingenious.
Another infamous problem with apparent out of tune singing at Eurovision was when the UK's entry Jemini sounded really flat during their live performance in the 2003 contest, causing them to get the UK's first nul point, and afterwards, after huge amounts of grief from the media, and online, I think they did outright say that they couldn't hear themselves properly, so I'd love for this channel to analyse that performance and see if that claim was true, or if it was something else that was happening.
Yesss great idea
When you pointed out that Madonna couldn’t hear her own voice, I thought of people I have known who had hearing issues, they couldn’t hear themselves so they couldn’t modulate their voice, sometimes it would be to loud or not loud enough or very flat. Thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis.
Brilliant explanation for laymen like myself, who have known something has sounded wrong for years, but couldn't tell you why.
Also, thanks for highlighting how tough it is for these singers on a live stage with all of these sounds coming through and making it nigh-impossible to hit a note. I have much more respect for these artists since I've been watching these, and much LESS respect for whoever it is that makes the decision to apply Autotune.
By the way, love the commentary and analysis. Makes you appreciate artists like Santana’s ‘Soul Sacrifice’ at Woodstock, or Prince at the Super Bowl in the middle of the rain, or Tina Turner at Wembley Statdium, or any artist playing on a big stage!
This is an exceptional analysis of a great performer who happens to have a moment of difficulty hitting her notes. Fil, I appreciate your insights into this performance and pointing out what we are hearing and some of the reasons why. You are the best at breaking down these performances and helping us understand what we are hearing, and more importantly, why!
I am slowly working thru all of your analysis videos and finding them all informative. 🎼🎸🤘💖
Your autotune analyses are the most informative and best I’ve seen!
Fascinating analysis of artists. This might outside your realm but as a classical violinist we are always pursuing perfect intonation. Jasha Heifetz claimed he played perfectly in tune. I think it would interesting to see how close classical string artists play in tune.
This was very interesting & makes me feel a little sorry for her. TBH I think a lot of us Eurovision fans were already angry with her & less prepared to be forgiving. She messed around the organisers by refusing to commit to the competition until literally 2 days before the final, so after the live singing had taken place for the semis, refusing to sign the contact after haggling extensively & didn't even turn up to the venue until as late as possible. Then she performed as she did. She was put to shame by the competitors & other interval acts., in spite of acting like a diva & treating the organisers & fans with derision & disdain.
You mentioned Madonna losing her reference point when the guys came in singing in the lower register. As you suggested, their voices may have produced resonant frequencies. However, there may be another explanation.
Many years ago I studied sound in order to work as a sound technician when I wasn't playing in a band. One of the first things I learned was, as people get older and their hearing starts to be affected, they tend to lose the higher frequencies first. The lower frequencies actually sound louder. I'm wondering if maybe the that is a reason the guy's voices interfered with her ability to hear herself. Or, at the very least, it may not have helped her situation any.
Interesting and valid point. As with age, our voices change along with our hearing. As a performer, and a very famous one at that, it must be more of a challenge.
Like the Yanny/Laurel thing a few years back.
@@Lamster66 Um, not. The typical hearing loss in geezers like me starts at or around 4k.
Go to Costco Hearing Aid center & talk to the people who really know.
And, yes, when you lose 4-8 K, the midranges and lows sound proportionally louder.
The brain loses it's ability to discriminate sounds from background noise as we age, and it's independent of actual loss.
@@MrLuigiFercotti Also, generally, older people have hearing loss starting at about 4K. musicians start earlier. I shot a big rifle a few times a deer rifle 30 out six with 180 grains of powder with no ear protection, and my right ear had that high and roll off when I was 35. My left ear caught up when I hit about 55.
Yes, there are certainly other physiological changes that happen along the way, but pretending that the ear itself doesn't change is hogwash.
Great analysis, Fil. I watched that performance live. I could feel she was struggling somehow. In the auto-tuned version, she sounds like a chipmunk.
I love Madonna, especially her album 'Ray of Light' and I really enjoy when she sings pop ballads like 'Live To Tell'.
Thanks! 🖤🤘🏽
Love that song
@Tracy Zimmerman I dare to say Madonna and Patrick Leonard created a masterpiece.
@riina k The music video for 'Frozen' left me in awe the first time I saw it. What a song!
'Sky Fits Heaven' is also a brilliant song ✨
This is a terrific discussion. I was watching a video recently of up and coming singer-songwriter-guitarist, Jackie Venson, who not only plays while singing, but often plays and sings the same notes in unison, which is hard to do. She uncharacteristically went off pitch and was clearly struggling to get it back. This is a great explanation for what likely happened.
Wow Fil. 👏 Your good! I find this so interesting. Wouldn't it be cool if Madonna contacted you and explained what she thought. I think your so right you would have to be in her position to fully understand what is happening.
I was a singer and I’ve had this very situation happen! My night when sideways when my voice fell into my old spot as background vocalist. So, while I was supposed to be lead vocalist, I had more practice on harmony. That’s where my voice went. I had the male back vocal in my ear without my own. My voice went straight to harmonizing with his. It was a thing. It happened. We all went on with the night and the rest of our lives. P. S. Madonna started as a drummer in a band.
Great video, brings context to the vocal on the night. I did watch it live and I did think that she looked a bit uncomfortable or had lost her way for some reason. Your video explains exactly why I thought that. Really fascinating video. Thank you for putting it together.
It would be nice if Madonna even sent you a short email stating if your analysis is what actually happened. But I'm glad you explained the technicalities. Otherwise I would not have understood that even pros like her could have a bad night.
Love this channel. I'm a massive music lover but not a musician so it's all a dark art to me. This insight truly is fascinating. Newly subbed and watching through these videos one after another. Awesome content, thanks man.
Good evening Fil&everyone,hope everyone is doing well.just wanted 2 say thank u 4 ur live stream last nite,I luv how friendly&welcoming ur fans r.im having a gr8 50th birthday.now 2 watch the video💝💝😻😻xxxxx
Love these auto-tune pitch correct reactions from you!!
I requested this recently and you responded so quickly 👍 Thank you so much for this analysis. Now I can see all the issues that most likely occurred "on the night", and I find myself viewing it with more compassion than I did before. I do count myself as a longtime Madonna fan, but I must admit this performance had me wondering if she was dropping the ball with not maintaining her voice. Adding to that, her most recent 3 albums use autotune to the maximum which has left me cold, so I rarely listen to them. All the same, I appreciate your explanation of this performance and I can understand the panic she must have felt. Thanks again 🙏💗
These videos are so interesting! I think you are always really fair to the performers :)
Very interesting analysis on Madonna. I have never heard her sing flat and lose her reference point in any songs before and I agree, it had to have been the size of the venue in which she was performing in. We all know that Madonna can sing and I too would love to have her take on what was going on that night but alas it's not meant to be. Thank you for a great and carefully chosen explanation of what actually went on.
Love your analysis, the fact that you are not bashing her just try to figure out what could have happened.
Having sung live without any feedback audio vs live with in-ears I set myself, the difference in what I sound like to the audience is staggering. I'm almost always flat if I can't hear myself over the backing due to trying to sing louder to hear. whereas if I can hear myself, I can move my voice to exactly where it belongs.
This makes me appreciate all the more the Deaf girl that was on (insert name of competition show) who had taught herself to sing while watching a guitar tuner and reading the music.
great vid, nothing worse than not being able to hear your voice when your singing. (Much prefer live singing for better or worse)
Sadly I never really could hear my own voice on stage so in school productions I always arranged to stand next to someone who : 1 was singing same part I was 2 knew the words 3 knew the music !
I really ought to send her a cheesecake or one of those fruit of the month club packages so popular right now. She (Marie Grimm, was Kachelmeyer) went on to sing at weddings and funerals.
I got an office job and bought CDs and sing in the car (my sanctuary).
I believe that you already know the position that I am going to take: I will choose raw and real over prepped and perfect nine ways from Sunday every single time. If I was going to fork out the massive sum of filthy lucre that it takes to buy a concert ticket these days, I'd be a fool to spend it on listening to a computer sing. I prefer a live performance by a living human being, errors and all. Even those errors are something to remember.
This was indeed an interesting video and I thank you for it very much. If I could choose another artist to analyse in the way you did Madonna, it would be Alanis Morrisette performing a song from her debut album. That recording was most definitely NOT autotuned.
All the best and stay well. 😎🎤🎸✌️
Very interesting...thank you Fil for your awesome analysis.
This reminds me of an Aerosmith performance I saw at some awards show years ago. Everyone talking about how bad Steven Tyler’s voice was, but through the whole thing you could see him tapping on his in ears… he clearly couldn’t hear himself at all
Live is live. I expect imperfections. If I want to listen to an artist’s “perfect rendition” mixed in a studio I’ll just listen to the CD and save the money. Any auto-tuning should be required to be posted as “80% live music”.
Fil, Thank you for doing the comparison. I watched Madonna's performance on the computer.
I like her early stuff. I'll give her credit for keeping her career relevant for so long.
Love this analysis and the behind-the-scenes glimpse into these large venue shows.
I'd just like to throw in here that I'm a Dylan fan and have seen him live more times than I can remember. If he used auto-tune, he wouldn't be Bob Dylan. He'd be Kanye West (Ye) doing a Dylan impression. I'd rather hear an artist working at singing and having an off night than someone faking it.
As a 65 year old singer(Madonna is now 66) and sound engineer in a 4 man rock n roll band, I can control my own fate to a large degree. We all have personal mix controls for our IEM's but there still have been times when I can't hear my voice for one reason or another. Now, this is usually in front of 50 people in a bar but the panic is indescribable. I can't imagine performing at the level Madonna was and keeping it all together. Respect, Ms Ciccone.
I'm really loving these! Can I recommend having a sign on the auto-tune side of the screen, saying whether we're seeing the "live" or "auto-tuned" version of the song? Thanks for your knowledge, Fil
I believe he doesn't label it on purpose. He wants us to visually try to figure it out, and get to the point of recognising it without being told. It's pretty obvious.
First of all, I want to thank you for this detailed analysis and proving my own thoughts about Madonna's performance back in 2019. I always felt like there had to be a technical issue regarding her vocal performances. All my friends went with the easy explanation that she's a terrible live perormer, but I emmediately could tell something had to be wrong with her earphone..I'm so glad you took the time to sorten this out.
Second of all......we share identical black hoodies;-)
Thanks man, I love this stuff
Thank you for this insightful and respectful reaction and for diving into this and making it clear what really happened. I was there and heard the organization was hell. I had contact with one of her dancers to meet, but he couldn't because they were rehearsing day and night with Madonna. He said that there were difficulties with the organization. Then I saw it live and you could hear and see that she had technical problems, but it didn't sound as bad as on TV. Also the registration and direction was bad, the camera didn't move or was too late, where it should, at some points. Which made it all look even worse than it was. People always like to bash her all the time, which is unfair, even her 'fans' did that. But Madonna was brave enough to not mime and just sing live, no matter what.
You’re a musical master, my friend. I’m so super impressed right now, I’m totally binging your channel right now.
Thanks!
One point I'd put out is a tip I read in an old opera book, that suggested using something to cup the sound to your ear - it vastly improves people's singing, as people end up listening to the internal sound of their voice over their external one which sounds completely different. Often people who sing terribly actually sound good in their own ears due to this quirk.
This autotune series looks like a hit for your channel, Fil. Congrats, my man on finding that sweet niche, which is sometimes hard to find on RUclips.
You've pretty much covered the spectrum in regards to the use of auto-tune and pitch correction. I appreciate the aspect that maybe Madonna couldn't hear herself as her performance progressed. As a singer, that's got to be terrifying. She's a seasoned artist, only she knows what the circumstances were during that performance. I would prefer a live performance, with no embellishments. I'm no fan of Madonna's, yet I applaud her efforts to sing live. Live is best, forget the rest...✌️
Hi Cindy... I don't know if you have heard of Mandy Harvey who became completely deaf by the age of 18, she a jazz singer/songwriter who plays the ukulele she also a motivational speaker. I find her inspiring. may you enjoy.
Mandy Harvey "wows" the crowd with her delightful personality, inspirational story and incredible acapella rendition of "Smile" at the Invisible Disabilities Association Gala Kickoff Party!
ruclips.net/video/DFUplx0_DVQ/видео.html
@@drewpall2598 Wow! How astonishing! Mandy's got a sweet voice. Don't know how she stays in tune, must be her musical training and her father's inspirations for her to continue on even after her hearing loss. Her speaking voice is so clear, amazing. I used to work with a woman who was deaf, and she spoke, but it was quite challenging to understand what she was saying, but we managed to communicate. Hope you are well Drew.✌️😊
@@cindypowers4993 I was born with a speech impediment, so I admire people like Mandy who has overcome obstacles in their life to achieve their dreams. I am grateful that Mother Nature has been kind to me ⛅ hope she has been kind to you as well.🧡✌😊
Well that makes total sense, I did wonder what happened.
I feel like anyone who judged her performance as "bad" would eat their words if they heard how horrible some of the newer artists sound without auto tune, even under good circumstances.
Not me. I think they sound terrible WITH the auto-tune.
I've seen many artists live , and they have been brilliant. She, however isn't one of them.
@@raven_ous2585 I guess you never saw Madonna live?
You would be be astounded by how good her voice is.
And yes, I saw her 5 times live in Holland AND I am critical.
@@raven_ous2585typical critic who's never seen madonna live
@@rickricardo5326 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you FIL for this thoughtful and respectful analysis of Madonna singing live. I never realized how challenging it can be to sing live.
Interesting. I can't recall the 'Fan Friday' episode in which Floor Jansen (of Nightwish) answered a question about in-ears, but she definitely selects specifically what she wants to hear while performing live. And, IMO, you can't get a better live performer than her, even when she's recovering from flu - slightly nasal, yes, but still smashing it. She talks about muscle memory.
the original singer of nightwish? she's amazing!
@@riinak7212 oh wow cool. I haven't listened to their music for some time, so I was curious.
ALSO I am thrilled that FINALLY someone has explained to me the specifics of stadium performances and all of the complexities that go into the “ new” music tech and broadcasting. ❤️❤️📣🎤
I remember watching this live and it was shocking. I guess you could put it down to monitors etc but I went in to work the next day and said watch this, then the next day the youtube clips were all rectified. The problem seemed to be that she couldn't hear herself, the shenanigans the next day were another thing. Her problem was inept sound guys.
I love Madonna. I recently saw her show and at 66 she is still amazing.
I wonder how much better these critics can do?? I’d rather hear an imperfect singer versus lip singing or someone who relies on auto tuning. I’ve seen her many times in concert and she puts on a really great powerful entertaining show. I appreciate it for what it is. 💁🏼♀️ I am not a huge fan of her style of music but I’ll see her in concert because she puts on a hella of a great show!!
Excellent analysis. Your compassion for her possible predicament is very nice.
Thanks, that was a good investigation. The autotune explanation some have suggested didn't really compute in my opinion, since she didn't hit the notes. I actually respect Madonna a lot more after this. It was in no way a good performance, but she did sing for real without cheating with autotune.
You always show respect for a performer whether or not you find true flaws. Too many people just try and even hope to find a reason to go against a performer.
Pitch correcting used to be just on dance records, now I hear it on country artists and indie acts. It's a shame I feel because its another step in de-humanising people and increased pressure on people to sound /look / be perfect. Its like when someone's obviously been under the knife and then flat out denies they've had any work done. I miss natural character.
Another great breakdown!. I'll always favor a live performance 👍🏻
Fil, you're a marvel at jam-packing these with one fascinating point after another.
For me, I can live without the spectacle---give me the best possible conditions for the musician. A beautiful performance is what's really thrilling.
Roy Orbison used to just come out by himself, sit on a stool with his guitar and do his songs. And the audience would be mesmerized. Sometimes less really is more.
@@stevecampbell9670
👍 Exactly. There's less getting in the way between artist and audience.
@@stevecampbell9670 Yes, and how refreshing that is. Talent is talent, either you have it or you don't. Peroid. No embellishments please.
Hello Konstantia ✌️ Great comment.
@@cindypowers4993
Hi Cindy! Thanks and ditto! 👍
Just imagine finally being in the audience to hear someone you've always loved and the whole thing is cluttered up with embellishment. You might leave feeling that his recordings touched your heart but hearing him in person left you cold. That's got to be wrong.
Thank you for letting me know that Donna Godchaux and I are not the only singers who've had trouble hearing themselves on a stage.
For me, the problem has been worst with others too close to my ears singing the same notes I'm singing, as when my height put me in a middle row of the soprano section in the high school chorus. I wished I had a pair of invisible ear plugs to make my own voice the one I could hear most clearly, without making the girls next to me feel as if they should shut up.
Thanks also for caring enough to debunk the usual misogynistic rot. I'm pushing sixty but thinking about showing my face in public again anyway, so it's nice to be reminded that not every young man in the world can be expected to attack me for opening my mouth.
Another example of why you're so great at breaking down music Fil, pitch correction and auto tune take all the feeling out of music, When doing a live performance Belt it out live, Jeff in LA USA
Just bought your record Persistence! Nice work Fil!
Thanks!
As a fan the whole thing was weird from the onstage pre-interview with her duet partner who said he didn't care about Madonna growing up to the obvious fact her outfit was preventing her from breathing properly. She definitely couldn't hear herself but she is struggling to breathe and anyone who knows Madonna will know that she works out very often and for her to be out of breathe just standing is shocking. I used to be in the live performances should be live but as i got older i think if you are able to record the song perfectly without auto-tune but find it difficult in a live setting i think lip syncing is fine especially if it's a concert where the artist is dancing a lot. Madonna also deleted her performance of Medellin with Maluma and that was auto-tuned too even though it wasn't off key or struggling like the eurovision performance and it has baffled fans as they auto-tuned maluma who was rapping lol
Open and fair as always. I love the vocal demonstrations you do to illustrate your point. Shows us even more that you know what you’re talking about, Fil. 👍