From Most Hated to Most Loved, Is Porsche's 964 Now Overhyped?
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Once the black sheep of 911s..Was everyone in the 90s and early 2000s wrong? the Porsche 964 was hated but now it is one of the most sought after of the 911s. Today I drive one and find out how why this happend and was it justified?
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I had a marine blue C2 coupe manual for about 9 yrs, bought it for 13k, sold it for 42k, spent more than that difference on upgrades and mods. Best car I’ve ever owned, and had a big tear in my eye when sold it to finance a project. Started to watch your channel because of your 964. Thanks Jack.
I’m an ex-Porsche technician, the 964 looks great and drives really well, however, the constant oil leaks, failing DME relays & the “frequent” engine rebuilds, spoil the whole experience.
Tbh the 968, 951 (944 turbo) & 928 are far better cars overall and supremely reliable.
(Waiting now for the backlash in the comments)
I had a 944 S2 for 13 years. Much better than the 86 Carrera I had. Have had a 997 but my favourite is my 1999 Carrera 996.....now I am really going to get a backlash.... Lol
@@Mafiacat2023 forgot to mention the S2, a fabulous all rounder
Despite all the slamming elsewhere, I have a soft spot for the 996, it’s honest and highly enjoyable, the 996TT is of course the business with the iconic Metzger but the C4S is a great alternative.
If only Porsche hadn’t cocked it up with the appalling IMS design & engineering…
Yes the reality
@@arthurdardalis Ooh, controversial! Much as I love the 928 they're far from being reliable. Cylinder head corrosion and gasket failures, electrics that can try the patience of a saint, and don't forget the thrust bearing. Gorgeous to look at though. Up until recently the real bargain beauty line the Porsche line up was the 924, you'd have to be a right plank to get into trouble driving one of those, and a cheap motor to run as well.
@@mrdainase here in Greece we didn’t have these issues with the 928, although I am aware they were an issue in other countries.
In all my years I had a couple of issues with electrics on the 928 but in both cases the passenger footwell was a little wet…
Had a 931 S2 for twenty years, loved it, it was well built, reliable (apart from the Golf electrics, which I sorted by adding numerous earth cables) and really fast. I made sure it didn’t stand for any period of time as the K-Jetronic started sulking….
The ventilation was pathetic but mine had A/C which was a godsend here in our climate
It was unloved at first because it was to similar to the previous cars. It’s beloved today because it’s so similar to the earlier cars, albeit being the most modern under the skin, sporting ABS, Power assisted steering, an actual functioning HVAC system and air bags on the later models. Also it’s the best sounding 911 of all time with its bassy rumble all the time having the 911 snarl on top. Lastly it’s so small and nimble and yet raw like a go kart.
The 964 is the 911 to have🏆 I’ve had 4 964’s to my name over the years. 2 C4 coupes, 1 C2 cabriolet and 1 Turbo. I prefer the Carrera models.
Seeing you back in a 964 feel natrual. Your passion for the 964 will never expire.
That car sounds so good. You forgot how uniquely aural the air-cooled 911s are.
try a tvr v8 :)
Any car can be made to sound like a TVR, you only have to turn the engine off😂
Bingo! when they went to water cooled, they never sounded as good. The air cooled 911 is absolute music.
@@jerrys. funny ,that happened a lot with 70´s cars but in my case it was for not having gasoline didn´t gave it time to stop by themselves or had them for a short period of time knowing how good were british sport cars of the 70´s ,had a looking like spitfire but with top and 2+2,don´t remenber the name ,was unique where i live and everybody called it spitfire with roof
@@guyforlogos the guy drivin`the cars doesn´t know it ,but at the time they seem ugly to much round shapes but in 97 i drove a carrera 4 and after her daughter with 14 years old drivi9ng it i went for a ride and had to have it so i bought it,in red my least favorite colour in sport cars ,only have two dino´s ,the two models one in white ,the second was never called ferrari no one liked it and was blue and have a 308 GTB vetroresina and a mondial both metalized grey, red only a fiat sport abarth from late 60´s and 40 h.p. when i was 12
Always loved the looks of the 964 ❤
The front is awesome, but the back is kinda outdated. The 993, especially the 993 Turbo looks way better overall.
They look so cool, especially in that colour. Also they are tiny compared to the latest ones and much better for it 👍
In 1999 bought a PC Game 911 something either 964 featuring I always chose this colour!
I own a C4 since 2011. Just returned from a trip to Germany. 301.550 km. A dream to drive.
Bullit-prove engineering, looks great, sounds great. More te come.
Takes me back to when I first started watching your channel, for the 964 content specifically. Was the beginning of my own Porsche adventure. Great stuff. And well done on how the channel has developed. Somehow the shift from 964 to influenzo during the pandemic was beautiful. Helped a lot of us in those dark days I’m sure. Looking forward to the next inspired leap.
If thats a fire extinguisher stick on the roll cage, then a applaud James for thinking about " what if" for him and others.👏
Who doesn't drive with a fire extinguisher in a old 911 😄
Finally finished this one. Thanks for the plug dude. 👊🏼⚡️
Was fortunate to buy my 964 Turbo before the pricing went stratospheric. I couldn't ever imagine selling it now. It's epic, every time you get in it.
I had nothing but problems with mine a S2 started with power steering, then smoking from rear which turned out to be cylinder scored, and new rings now helped for say 6 months, this was engine out job ever 6 months .
Then the 2 rear bearings went at a similar time and to top it off the diff Shattered like glass .
I sold it cheap becuse it needed cylinder boring but I saw the score was to deep and they had been done twice before so metal was scarce to play with, so new engine block in my opinion.
Which means new parts as once its out ,one upgrades.
I did sell it cheap, just a few years later the car had nearky doubled in price and since then it's just going up.
Still with the issues, it would have been a lot for work and just becuse your car is worth more doesn't mean its in your pocket while owning it .
Great car , really miss it looked great but Underneath it was a mess .
@@itisjustacommentthat's really odd. In nearly 20 years of ownership and being a member on rennlist/Porsche club GB forums I have never heard of another 964 never mind a turbo having bore scoring issues. Noisy diffs requiring rebuilds yes, and electrical gremlins (especially in the last 5-10 years as these cars get older and electrics have gotten harder to source)... But the main issue has always been non-fatal oil leaks.
Any chance you got an Andial prepped car that someone had absolutely abused before you bought it?
@johnsnowdon2939 Absolutely abused , or not maintained at all or parked up for years.
Something went wrong indeed in it past.
I had friends who had 964s and had zero issues . I'm thinking back the a rod might have been misshaped or pistol issue or something got into the cylinder in a past live Anyway, it was scored badly and major job .
Nice review as always. Looked like you were enjoying that drive!
I passed through the area last Monday and finally drove that road !! Those s bends are steeper than I thought. I can see why you and Harry use it so much .
I like all the air-cooled 911's. The 964 always looked a bit heavy with that frontbumper, to my eyes at least. Personally I'd prefer a 993, but wouldn't mind a 964 at all.
It is for this reason I prefer the 993. When the 964 came out, I did not feel the desire to own one compared to the 993. Feelings are still same hence why 1 got the 993. Prefer the engine note too vs the 964 which I never liked. All subjective though. 😊
I have never seen you so unrelaxed before😊looks so much nicer than the modern ones.
I fell in love with this model when a family member purchased one brand new in 1989 and kept it for 34 years as a teenager back then I always promised myself one which I finally managed to do in 2009 it was a carrera 4 coupe manual in guards red great car and full of character but felt a little bit disappointed by the way it drove for some reason recently I have bought a super low miles 996 carrera 2 coupe and I absolutely love it drives great
Nicely done. I own a ‘93 coupe, and as you say they are a bridge to the classic 911 but much more usable in modern driving. I had a 993 previously, and while it was a very capable car it lacks the vintage character of the 964.
Always loved the 964 since I "understod" the Porsche 911 Concept. Couldn't afford one back when they where cheap, now when I can afford them, they are too expensive. Bought myself a mint Manual E46 M3 when they still where cheap instead, lol. But still longing for that 964, one day perhaps :) Even have a sticker on my M3s license plate that says " Couldn't afford a 911" :P
Great video! We also met during 964 meetings. Great stuff!
Off course, I remember you Joost!!
964 was the model that caught my attention.
Never really had time for Porsche until a friend rolled up in an RS inspired 964 and I was hooked
All true! I love my completely stock 964, so much fun to drive and sooo pretty ❤ Thanks for the great video!!
Love the colour. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
I had one of the very first 2 wheel drive 964's (1990) which replaced my 1988 Carrera Targa and even though it had a bit more power and made all the right noises I never really loved it as somehow it had become more user friendly and less quirky with things like heater controls that didn't feel like they came out of an Me109! I would say though that selling the 964 was the worst financial decision in my car owning life due to what it would now be worth but on an emotional level the Targa Supersport with it's lovely staggered Fuchs alloys was so right and if I was ever in a position to own another I'd be a very happy bunny.
I had my C2 coupe manual for nine years………the figures speak for themselves…80% new over the outgoing G body cars and a top speed close to that generation turbo model plus huge aerodynamic improvements….that’s only scratching the surface really. Without doubt the best car I have ever owned.
I never knew it was the least liked, I loved them and the one I tried was enormous fun. A massive shame the missus flat-out refused to agree we should have it.
I bought my 964 15 years ago when they were still good value. First 5 years it was my daily driver, now it gets treated far too well. It’s not that fast compared to a modern hot hatch, but every journey makes me smile
I wish mine did , the previous owmers didn't do anything I seemed since new .
It one of those cars that would break down on long journeys or just before driving holidays with friends.
Last staw was cylinder number 4 was scored badly and the diff shattered just soon after .
When I got my uncle a trained mechanic to look at it , he noticed the Bushings need replacing , 2 wheel breaking , Suspension was leaking on the rear shocks . The new diff seal was leaking.
And part another 20 another things plus many rust and Exposed wires and hardered pipe work .
I wish it was better, great car . But I could go far until it was Totally overholded.
So I sold it instead, cheap a I had to tell the next person about the engine cylinder, right thing to do.
Really enjoyed this. Especially love the description of the steering feel. Lovely drive bys too 👍🏼
Glad you liked my car - I enjoy your videos!
Extremely awesome car!!! Luv’n the channel!!! 👍😊👊💥
it looks awesome!
Had a blue 964 as my daily driver for 10 years ....was brilliant !!
Thank you for this video. This car was really popular in New Zealand racing circles.
You’re so right. When I bought my 964 in 2005 it was was the 911 nobody wanted..now look at them. Beautiful to look at and a great drivers car but oh my god it loved an oil leak which is the reason I sold it
Brilliant review. 👍
These cars are bring high dollar amounts here in the States. Great work as usual!
Nice to see you back where you started jackpe 👍
Classic 911 sound. Classic 911 interior. What's not to fall in love with?
Really though, doesn't almost every car go through that trough, 15 years oldish, when they are at their low point. And then after a while they start to get looked at through new eyes. I seem to recall that years ago, people sneered at the 911 SC, because it wasn't the same as the previous 2.7's. The handling ? My 911 SC only caught me once, mainly because I was usually very respectfull of it. One early winter morning, though, on the A30 out of Cornwall, I accelerated too soon out of a wet corner, and the back end snapped on me. Hardly a blink of the eye, I was going backwards down the road, and stalled to a halt. I was more embarrassed than shocked, and thankfull that no one had seen it all.
To be honest, though, for me the 964 still fails on the bumper areas.
James car looks very nicely sorted RS Evocation an Omega where as a Singer is a Rolex with a Diamond Bezel. The 964 has to be peak 911 that decade came on song late but RS rarity, Bad Boy Turbo S and zero depreciation basically across the board when GT3's are at least on a wobble says everything......the smile on your face at the end says it all about James ironed out 964.
I've always wanted to drive one of these, I love the classic looks and feel.
I enjoy these videos. They bring back olden times. Is this 964 a very loud version or was the microphone attached to the exhaust? My 911 was not that noisy. I recall one Harry episode when he drove his XKR to the south of France. In a national park he commented on the beautiful scenery and well maintained road as he blasted through. A hiker appeared in one scene. I wondered whether that hiker, walking on that same road and contemplating that beautiful scenery, appreciated the XKR's exhaust noise as much as Harry did. I look forward to the street version of Porsche's Mission R that delivers more performance without disturbing bystanders.
Great vid again Jack. Like most on here, shoulda bought one of these 15 years ago. Prices are ridiculous now.
I don't remember it being hated when it came out in the US. Magazines said it was a bid improvement especially the transmission. I remember as a kid wanting one. Are you sure it was hated? There was no social media to spread on line hate so it would be hard to know if a lot of people hated it back then.
Stunning! I was 18 when it launched peak 911 in my mind. Driven many, many miles in the G50 and a few in the 993. Convinced 964 is the perfect balance!
Great review Jack, thank you.
But how did it compare to the Cerbera in your last video?
Totally different car.. can’t really compare!! Love both
Very pleased to see the helmet sticker in the window.
Carried with pride
Great ride, thanks. Took me back to my own 964. But like you, it was not a basic design I was comfortable driving. My 993 solved all that and it is still the only car I wish I hadn't sold.
Love the colour! Anybody else also notice, the mirrors,alloys and brakes were used on the Audi RS2 collaboration?
James obv started the trend for the "younger in crowd " 👍
Fantastic cars the 964’s, the best looking air cooled by a mile IMO, aggressive looking and they keep the faith with the traditional 911’s. Thanks for the video. Do you miss your one?
That is just lovely, sounded lovely too, and guess what, we noticed just how much you enjoyed driving it.
Brilliant. A proper car review done by a car person, for car people. I love my C4!
Another great video Jack. I too love the 964, but in the Carrera 2 version over the C4. I prefer the styling of the 964 with the original bodywork over the 993. And I prefer the Carrera 3.2's over the 964 just because I like the lineage that goes back to 1963. And those being type 911's have the torsion bar suspension that the good Doctor intended all Porsche's bearing his name have. But for the 964 I love them too and I'm in the camp that the handling quirks if what makes them so very special. Feeling the engine in the back and having to brake early then slingshot out is why the ticket price is high today. There's literally nothing else like it.
Man, what a sound ❤
Would LOVE to see you review an 80's or newer Bristol. There such a rarely talked about brand and when they are it's usually there earliest model (which are lovely) but there nxt to nothing on RUclips about models like the Blenheim or the Beaufighter.
Great video Jack, not sure I can bear to sell mine… 😢
Ah Dude.. don’t, you’ll regret it. Hope all good chap!!
I remember you trying to get yours to start on a freezing cold morning at Dony! :)
Ah yes mate!!! Happy days…
It is a great fun car for trips on small winding country roads during the summer. It is reasonably comfortable for being an old sportscar, you can fit two sets of golfclubs in the backseat, and it actually works to go 4 people short distances. It does not feel safe to go really fast but that has been a very minor problem for me. The only thing I would hold against it is the high maintance cost. I have had nothing major for the 12 years I have had it, but even the small things add up and become quite costly.
Love the colour. Really want to get one now
My favorite sports car ever! .....and the Genesis of my favorite youtube channel 😉
Sounds wonderful 😊
Great video Jack, I am saving now?
I sold my 964 C2 and regret it every day as it’s quadrupled in price since. Also it’s not a car to be driven slowly, when driven hard it’s unbelievable! It hones your skills. Went straight into singles seaters at Silverstone and beat everyone there easily.
great vid, I have always wanted a 964, never been able to afford one, but now I have my 996 turbo, would I change? Hmm, possibly yes. though very different cars.
Very cool, shame the prices are nuts. 😢
Love the look of the older 911 & sound of the air cooled but there’s to many problems & expenses to put up with 😔
Woah, nice.
Dig the color.
What ever model one might have bought new in 1985 is still my favourite 911. In white with black details. I saw one, mid-drift in a magazine, and it was cool 😎
After that, I never really cared much for them. I more respect them, and I have even driven one. I gave it some beans, and thought "Ok, it shifts..." and then it exploded at around 5500 rpm. That was almost scary. 😅
Who said the 964 is unloved. It is one of my favourite and most iconic shapes 911 line up.
They're fantastic cars- if Singer has really vacuumed up 450 😯 then my advice would be: buy one now! Oh, and I'm always open to offers on my Midnight Blue C2 manual 😉
Watching the nose bobbling up and down brings back memories.
Didn't the 964 suspension get coil over springs rather than torsion bars versus the previous generation? That seems like a big difference.
great sounding car
Back in the early to mid 90s a handful of the LHD 964 rs models were imported into the UK and astonishingly they were going for around 25k.....and I still regret it today not buying one as I had an instinct that one day it would be a classic.....maritime blue and rubystone red were utter beauty ❤❤❤
Yep I was present at the time, had them money and was looking to part with my 968 CS, unbelievably I turned down a LHD 964 R/S at £27K ( felt it was to similar to the 968);and brought a 225 TT 😩😩- still living with the shame 🙄- thanks for the therapy!
That colour is so early 90s
Old school look with new tech specs, its got it all.
964s became popular mostly because they found themselves to be the most affordable purchase at that particular time. The same thing has happened again more recently with the earliest 996s. Both models were the subject of scathing criticism from owners of other 911s but the pent-up demand to get on the 911 bandwagon means that buyers eventually held their noses and bit the bullet.
I backed out of buying a slate grey 964 C2 Manual in 2009 for $13k. It only had 90k miles on it. California car. I won the car on Ebay and was all set to pick it up and drive it home to Canada. I backed out of the deal because I had just finished teaching overseas in Japan at an international school and didn't have another job lined up yet. I had enough cash to buy the car, but was worried about my savings. Biggest regret of my life.
Probably not as much regret as the seller had allowing you to bid. What a prick move to pull.......and then state it publicly.
Like I give a shit what the "public" thinks.@@Beaulocks_
964 is legend especially the race cars ones which raced in JGTC in japan.
These were so hated in the late 1990's and early 2000's. I remember calling a used car dealer that had a lot of 911's and other cars like BMW's and Mercedes, I was calling about a 1991 964 and the first thing he said was yeah these are nice cars but look more dated than other older 911's.
Simply gorgeous!
I think it looks gorgeous and my god dies that engine sound good!
Amazing, to me at least, that only a few years ago this model looked a bit fragile and not quite right. Now it just looks perfect. Should have bought one ten years ago!
ty 🙏🙏
Great looking car👍
You're cool to us, Jack!
😆😆😆😆
I still kick myself for not dropping 90 grand on a 92 911 turbo back in 2012 here in Australia, the same car is approaching half a million today 😥
Could you do a 993 test also? Never ever liked 964 and maybe you can do a comparison? Thanks for the video 😊
The "hype" is dependent upon the Collector Market, and their desire to turn profit. Price-Point has been the greatest tool of the Porsche gatekeepers, assuring that only flippers/collectors possess interesting models.
I knew two people who had these. Both spent a fortune on an engine rebuild in a relatively low mileage car. Given my own unreliability experience with a 924S I was put off Porsche pretty much forever. I'm perplexed with the rise in price of the 964, I'm just not that keen on 911s myself though I know many are
These are classic cars that will need upkeep as any aging car would. You can talk about American muscle, other euro cars, and Japanese cars of this era, and many of them will need some looking after. It could even be inferred that those two examples from the people you knew have fared differently in terms of reliability vs most others that have been stout and trouble-free in comparison. I’ve seen someone put 700K+ miles on a 930 and a million miles on a 356. Even 670k+ miles on a 996 Turbo. They all have been meticulously cared for and many others have been reliable
The sound 👌
It's funny to hear the 964 being the black sheep at the time, sounds similar to the 996 which has now come into its own.
Best looking 911 by far
What made the 964 more popular during the 2000's was the 964 RS. So many aspire to this model due to the low numbers made as well as a car that was a lot more than the sum of its parts. So now you had hundreds of 964 RS look-a-likes or copies, like the one in the video all trying to emulate the RS. That is what caused dates 964 to rise in price so much. Back in the early 2000s you could buy a 964 C2 or C4 for £10K to £12K. At the same time an original RS would have cost about £35K, long before Singer came on the scene...
Because it was the first all-new design for the 911 the 964 did have some real reliability concerns compared to the 3.2 and the SC's. It was also not as DIY-friendly, which is why I didn't consider it 12 years ago when I bought my 3.2. At the time it was neither fish nor fowl: not really a classic 911, but not a modern one either. It did have real AC, though, and more horsepower.
So in love with 964 that I had to buy one!
My kind of car! Loved it! German perfection!
It’s funny how 964s became some sort of celebrated iteration, people forget the reason Singer chose the 964 to build on was because it was unloved and cheap but still had the right bones. I tend to agree it was not the most iconic 911 design and as is often the case of unloved cars the nice examples become rare, not to mention a bit of a hipster thing. Plus there were some iconic models like the 959/964 4wd system which found its way into the Cayenne, plus the lightweight racing models back when those really were a sacrifice to daily
Edit: I see you hit on most of these 😂 including one I didn’t specifically mention which is the demand for even the worst 964 by restomodders brought up the values of the car overall!
And I’d imagine this video will get lots of views, the Porsche factor. I would love to see you in an affordable modern Porsche classic, a 996?
Brilliant car, I bought mine in 06, will never sale. Double wishbone to the front could be The improvement ..
Had a 3.2 sport on a 89 f reg. Nothing drives drives like a 911 , and anyone who has driven one will tell you the same , there fantastic.
The 964 is a classic design, all those curves in the right place. Thanks Jack for another great review. 👍👍
Have to disagree
It's a mistake imo,an ugly mix of classic and modern
Throwing smoother bumpers on the G shape looks wrong
Agree. It was good to lose the accordion safety bumpers. I slightly prefer the long hood 911s, but the 964 is more muscular.
@ArtVandelayOfficial have to disagree, the accordion bumpers and giant bumperettes were just hideous. The 964 smoothed all that out nicely.
@@xxhotelcrazyxx I mean it's one or the other
Putting those modern bumpers on the old body looked like an afterthought
It should have jumped straight to the 993 design
@@xxhotelcrazyxx It's like when people put modern body kits on classic cars, doesn't look right