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Rowing Seat - Carbonfiber With Nomex Honeycomb (Spacegrade)
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
- Facebook: / mat2composites
Twitter: @matthieutje65
Instagram: matthieu.libeert
In this extended tutorial I explain you how to work with spacegrade Nomex Honeycomb combined with composites, this is ideal for work with RC vehicules/F1 parts/light weight structures for formula student cars/ E-cars and more!
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All (most) of the materials used in this video can be found on
www.easycomposites.co.uk
Easy-Lease Chemical Release Agent - 500ml
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/wa...
GC50 Epoxy Compatible Clear Polyester Gelcoat 1KG
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/re...
Professional 10 Inch Carbon Fibre Composites Shears
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/to...
IN2 Epoxy Infusion Resin 1kg Pack SLOW
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/re...
Carbon Fibre 2/2 Twill 12k 650g 1m Wide
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fa...
Woven Glass 2/2 Twill 200g 1m Wide
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fa...
Composites Vacuum Pump
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Professional Resin Infusion Catch-Pot
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Resin Infusion Line Clamp
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
6mm ID Budget PVC Vacuum Hose 5m
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Vacuum Bagging Film
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Peel Ply 1.52m Wide
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
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EasyFlow Knitted Infusion Mesh - 1.4m Wide
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Vacuum Bagging Gum Sealant Tape (High Temp) 15m
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
3.2mm/29kg Nomex Honeycomb (Aerospace) 2mm 625mm x 625mm
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/co...
EL2 Epoxy Laminating Resin 500g FAST
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/re...
BR180 Breather Layer Cloth 1.52m - 5lm Folded Pack
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
R250-P3 Perforated Release Film 1.3m - 5lm Folded Pack
www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/va...
Very clean and professional. Subscribed
Hi Matt great video thanks a lot. how heavy is the seat all together ? thanks
Thank you for sharing this!
I'm a retired United airlines composite technician. Great video. Enjoyed
Thanks! Glad to hear you liked the video!
matthieu ,if you use a vacuum bag tecnique (No RTM !) what is the idea vacuum value for ths kind of works? thanks
would carbon fibre + none honeycomb be lighter than regular plastic?
do you have videos on how to make moulds...I wanna make carbon fiber cycling shoes I know how to treat carbon fiber but I struggle with making moulds
HI Matthieu, I'm in the process of watching all your videos, which I'm really liking, just wondering why you made the seat in so many steps rather than forming it all in one process
Hey
Can you give link for video of calculation of mixing resin, hardener and catalyst ratio.
Thank you
i have question how you do carbon fiber screw holes in any mold ??? thanks
hi, Do you know any other kind of sealer that i can use instead of the sealant tacky tape because i cant find it in my country and cant buy it online
Magnificently done sir!
+Peirre Gale Thanks a lot
Wow! Way cool! I think I found a new hobby. :D
Hi matt, we spoke a few weeks ago on the unimould setup, which tape did you use to seal the edges of your part when applying the honeycomb, and where did you get it from? Also I had sime issues with my mould, it seems to have a small leak, so ill be envelope bagging the whole thing, so I needed some advice, could it be possible if I upon the first layup, whicg will go on top of the gc50, I can do it via wet lay and the the rest of the layers via infusion,, just to make sure that the cosmetic layer doesnt have any imperfections?
Materials in the video description? This layer add for resist, name of product?
So when you wet out the fiberglass over the honeycomb, none of that resin filled in the holes in the honeycomb? I'm new to this and am shopping for appropriate honeycomb materials for a motorcycle seat, which will really be quite similar to what you're building here.
Did you put any epoxy after vacuum bagging the nomex honeycomb and before putting fiberglass? what was the typical duration between the two steps? Did you let the epoxy cure in between? Nice vid btw.
What kind of vacuum pump did you use?
Hi matt, when you are vacuum bagging the part is the void pump running during the entire polymerization process?
Love what you’r doing 👍
How and where did you learn all those technics? It seems to be very difficult.
Hello there,
In my working environment, they made me understand, that the key role of a good & smooth finished carbon fiber part is THE MOULD. Knowledge for carbon fiber and resin exists, but the problem is allways on manufacturing a good mould. As I said, in the work, many carbon fiber parts come with small dents; the main reason is a mould, which does not supress the part properly and air goes between carbon and the mould. I would ask you to give emphasys on mould shaping and manufacturing ( materials, process, finishing ). Allready subscriped my man!!!
Thank you. Subscribed.
thanks mate!
Did you use spray adhesive ? How did you get it to stick to the mold?
i enjoyed the video alot its great ty
Hi Matthieu. Could you please advise what vacuum pump are you using? I mean power, vacuum power etc
I’m new to your channel and am enjoying your content. Thank you for posting your work, great job.
Welcome! Great to hear you like the video's I make!
Where can I find the extended video you mentioned on the video description? and the calculations video?
I have just subscribed to your channel. I see that you have a reusable bag, can I know where did you get it?
Love it! Thank you! Do you know how honeycomb affects a sound? Let's say I want to implement it in making musical instrument, how much acoustics would differ from an instrument made of wood? What would be your perspective on this matter? Thank you!
Which video is it were you do the resin calculations? I don't see it?
Bro how much cost the carbon part only the carmor fiber?
What is 2 layers of cloth covered with carbon to vacuum?
Thank you. It's hard to find information on how the incorporate honeycomb into a laminate. I have to wonder if maybe the seat was slightly overbuilt?
coffeefish sure thing it is more than strong enough ;)
how vacuum prressure have your pump?
What material is the mould made from?
Where did you get the vacuum bag?
I used to work a Schoenbrod/Dirigo Racing Shells in Biddeford, ME. Made a lot with carbon fiber honeycomb panels and hulls.
honeycomb is quite fascinating on how much strenght it adds without adding to much weight
Where did you get the bag with the blue seal
Hello, great video. Is it not possible to do all of these steps in one vacuum bagging process ?
As I understand it, you don't do it all at one because you don't want to soak the honeycomb with resin, and to keep things as light as possible with the minimum/correct amount of resin in the right places.
Thanks for your radio!
If I need make a large product like monocoque, applying fiberglass and vacuum bag must be time-consuming. Is there any other good method preventing the resin into honeycomb? Or can I just use fiberglass without vacuum bagging?
Nice video, its cool to see all the work it takes to make some sexy carbon fiber parts.
ForkMyDongle Thanks and what you are saying is true, a lot of work goes into making a part like this, but the results are so rewarding :)
hello friend like to see your videos......you explained very well !!!!bravo
Can someone explain to me on calculation of epoxy? I don't get much.
Thanks for posting Matthieu. Can you give me a general estimate of how much all of the materials (not including reusables like the pump, tubes, etc) would cost to make this part?
scott loong such part would be around 65€ in materials (without mould) but the "problem" is you cant just buy 300grams of resin (you have to buy min 1Kg) so total cost from scratch would be 150€ in materials then you would have to add 15 hours of work till finish (450€) making this a part of around 500€ (labour is the most expensive part)
Hello Matthieu,
Its exactly the kind of tutorial I was looking for. I have one small question though (seems like quite an old post, hope u will still respond). In your video at about 8:30 you have used a fiberglass on top of Honeycomb and then vacuumbagged. But I could not see if (or how) you used the resin for the fiberglass. I am very curious about how you did it. In my case I need to make sure that there is no or very little resin going into the Honeycomb.
I'd highly appreciate your response. Thanks!
I think @Matthieu Libeert applied resin on the fiberglass before laying it on the honeycomb.
How much trouble, it was possible to mold at one time with foam.
Greeat video!
please give details about chemical resin used in making carbon fiber
Hi Mattieu! Thanks for the video! Can you (or anyone) please explain why you added the layers of fiberglass? The layer you added at 3:32 seems to have disappeared at 6:38. Really appreciate the help.
fiberglass will become transparant when resin is added ;)
Nice video!
Why don't you degas the resin in vacuum before the infusion? I ask because I have to deal with air bubbles in my parts, although I degas my resin.
How high is your vaccum pressure during the infusion?
naCho EZ gel coat avoids surface bubbles
@C W obviously you have no experience with decent hand layups either. You NEVER use triangular pieces, you cut the material on the bias. The more small pieces used the more chances for a failed seem and excess buildup of thickness in a crap part. Maybe instead of trying to act like a keyboard tough guy you should learn what you speak of. I'm a designer that calls out manufacture methods on carbon fibre production to our vendors. But that's probably not an issue for you as I looked for your products everywhere and couldn't find any.,
fantastic thanks
Hi, would it be possible to use the nomex honeycomb with RTM and only have to do one step? thanks :)
No, you need to seal off the honeycomb so it doesn't fill up with resin.
Beautiful
Hi amazing video! I am currently designing the chassis for the Shell Eco marathon competion. The plan is to make a tub like shape using layers of 200g/m2 twill weave carbon on either side of 9mm thick nomex. SO the two options i have for fabrication are to make a flat panel and then to bond the stringers and the other is to use the cut and fold technique. Btw we don't have prepeg so it will be wetlayup :P The plan is to use wet layup prepeg. Any input for me matthiew?? Many thanks!
Mohammed Omer depends if you have a mould? with a mould following the technique in my video you would get the best results. You might have some dificulties bonding the sheets on the nomex to keep it shape due to the tension in the sheet
I noticed you used the vacuum bags that are used to storage clothes in .I'm currently using them to bag some wet lay up carbon so they don't have a full vacuum but still get pushed into corners.
I'm thinking about going to use vacuum infusion with a vacuum pump .Could these storage bags be used to vacuum infuse parts as wel ?It would be easier since my mold doesn't have a large enough flange to apply the sealant tape .
Could work but a lot of chances of failure
You got fantastic videos!
My question is, do you let the gel coat cure before moving on or is it still wet when you apply the first layer of carbon?
I´ve never used gel coat so far and im dealing with a lot of pinholes...
Thanks!
You let it stand for a couple of minutes then put carbon ontop when its still wet. That is my understanding
No, you allow it to fully cure
So a couple questions,
1. the epoxy then Nomex, then vacuum that was really just to apply pressure while it cured, yes?
2. The lay up was filmed backwards wasn't it :-)
3. The laminating resin for the fibre glass. So the vacuum on this, does it draw any of it into the Nomex? I guess it would. but its not like a full resin supply. This creates the barrier to the carbon resign in fussion, yes?
4. Also how thick is the Nomex, would it have been stronger if you did it on the sides as well?
***** attentive viewer! I like that ;) correct on every point! about point 3. it might be some resin was pushed in the Nomex but not mucht, fiberglass was saturated to a minimum on a plastic sheet then transfered on the nomex, then bagged to remove any excess resin left. This does create a barrier if you would like to do an infusion on top, I did this part with regular vacuumbagging, but an infusion would be ideal. point 4. the nomex was 2mm if I'm correct, using this on the sides would work as well but the nomex is at it's strongest on horizontal stress (do you know what I mean?)
Matthieu
+Matthieu Libeert (Mat's Prototyping) hello there
As i reading the question and answers i came up with an idea about the barrier layer .
wouldnt be the perfect way in compresion terms and also at the point of not getting resin into the neomex to do
a vacuumbag inside a vacuumvag? the first one would be baged by itself with infusion in it and the second would be attached into the gasket holding it into shape.
what do you think?
a question wouldnt it be stronger to have solid styrofoam or a two part foam inside and baging it at once? would it be much havier that way?
ps. thanks for the wonderful videos
I want to convert my Harley Davidson to Carbon fiber I’m starting with the fenders and gas tank and I’ll be posting it on my channel but this is good information to have thank you and hopefully mine turns out just as good ..
Hi buddy, did you manage to convert the gas tank? Thanks
Hi Matthieu,
I really enjoy the quality and pacing of your videos.
Evidently making this part from prepreg would reduce the cost in man-hours as you could layup and cure the part in one step.
How would you estimate the difference in material and tooling cost if you were to make this part in prepreg (suppose 80C cure system)? Do you have any experience using a gelcoat along with prepreg to control surface finish?
+Paul Achard Never tried a gelcoat with prepreg...at my opinion you would get print through of the fibers in the gelcoat due to the fact that gelcoat will soften, dont know how the resin in the prepreg will react with the gelcoat as well :) sorry for my late answer by the way :)
Good job and nice video... I have one question though! What does the fiberglass help? You have some real high tech stuff there and it won't add any significant strength...Why don't use a layer of thinner CF...Or a single thick one?
Sketch1994 fiberglass it's cheaper that's why people add it in between the carbon
Curious to know why you do it by so many separate steps rather than form the body in one time vacumm bagging
+Charly Wong If you would all do it at once the honeycomb little cores would just fill up and you would have a heavy, resin rich part
+Matthieu Libeert (Mat's Prototyping) I was thinking the same thing as charlie but then had another look at the material and saw that you're right and it would be a solid resin rich material. You should have a go using Lantor Soric as your honeycomb and flow material. it maybe not quite as light but I've had great results with it as a flow media and a very rigid and strong core material. the honeycomb is also non absorbent and so you won't end up with a resin rich part.
if it had been done via infusion, then it could have been all laid up as one and run as a single step effectively.
Totally new to this so bare with my stupid question... Once you vacuum it all up and all the air is out, what do you do with the vacuum pump? Do you leave it running all night? or you just switch some sort of a valve and you leave it? How does it work?
You could turn it off, but chances are that air will leak in eventually. Usually, it's better to leave the vacuum pump on, at least until the resin semi-cures.
I'm curious to know why you used a layer of fibreglass in the process?
+Anthony Bowe exacly for me that was pointless
+Anthony Bowe I wouldn't know for sure but to visually confirm the adhesion between the nomex core and the layup? With black carbon fiber layup i assume that would be quite impossible.
+Anthony Bowe fiberglass is used because I didn't had such a lightweight weave and this was just for instructions...if you use fiberglass or carbon fiber, the process is entirely the same
Thanks Matthieu!
it makes no sense from a structural point of view, thats true.
How do you know how much resin you need to apply to a part?
Nice workshop at the IDC btw ;-)
+Jonas Deman correct, IDC. you can make a rough estimation by weighing the fabric and using the same amount in weight as the fabric for the resin and add a little bit more. It's not exact sience its more of experience
Is it possible to do that in a singel infusion or do you have to do all the steps that you did? great video btw
Schlasken R on my experience I do everything in one infusion with like 50 layers of carbon and parts over 100 feet long
What i feel is missing in such Videos is a weight comparison between a classical part and the CF part. Sure, labour intensive, but how big are the benefits?
Can be up to 50% but all depends to what you compare and you can always make the same part with the same weight but 5x as strong for example... Depends on the application, but you argument is correct about weight! I'll keep that in mind for future tutorials!
I knew that cores with open cells must not to be used with liquid resin but only with prepreg (because the resin into the cells might make the Nomex very heavy) and that the goods with Nomex must be put into oven.
Can you confirm that the seat had not any problem? Thanks to show us your video, it is very interesting. Alessandro
Alessandro Ferrara doing it like here is a technique they use in aviation and automotive, open core can be used with liquid resins but with an other approach like here in my video, hope this answers your question
Yes, sure, thanks for your reply. I asked only to better understand (I have never worked with infusion, but with hand lay up and vacuum bagging). The question "No honeycomb with liquid resin" has been a reply I received by a skateboard manufacturer who has a semi industrial approach to the matter. Really thanks for your explanation. Alessandro
Why didn't you just layer the nomex in with the CF? Wouldn't it have been better to give the CF strength that way rather than haveing it 'exposed' underneath the way you did?
Why you did several different vacum prcedures instead of layig all layers once and makeing everything as one vacuming?
Does anyone know why he didnt lay up the whole lot in one hit rather than 3 to 4 different layups and vac bagging?
Great stuff
+quadmuffin Thanks!
What that zip lock vacuum bag, where can I get it
I would be interested as well!
Basically any vacuum bag for clothes, works just perfect and costs close to nothing. Just experiment to find the right one
how can i reinforce a part where the nomex honeycomb cant get the 3d format because of the angle of the curves?
cut the nomex in a few pieces like a patern that do folow the curve then
good job man.
+Makhoe van der Vlugt Thanks ;)
Is that really lighter then a single piece of stamped aluminum?
Probably not, but the seat is custom fitted to the posterior of the rower and much stiffer. Making a die in that shape for a one-off is probably more expensive than composite construction.
How did you make the mold? I want to make a mold of an rc boat I have.
Check on my channel, you should be able to find a video about mouldmaking 😉
Hi matthieu!
Really great video!
At 4:28. We call it ear (making a ear in the bag).
Do you use any product to clean your material (1:05), or it just goes to garbage?
Thanks!
Joao Pedro Garbage, its cheap stuf and cleaning it would cost me more :)
Thanks for the info, wont forget it for following videos ;)
Very nice video, I love your work, I hope if you help me by teaching. Thanks
I'm curious, could you not lay up the entire schedule in one run to avoid multiple baggings etc.
no the resin infusion of the epoxy would fill the entire honeycomb
I have seen people working on carbon fiber applying the resin by hand and let it dry at ambient temperature, there is any reason why is needed to infuse?
You get better results with resin infusion and stronger parts lighter parts that's the main reason 🙂
Very nice
Why not Carbon Fibre is applied directly on Nomex honeycomb i.e Why Glass fibre is placed between Nomex honeycomb and carbon fibre ?
Can you get a decent result from doing a wet layup with the carbon and then vacuum bagging instead of doing the resin infusion if you have to make very large parts like the size for a Formula car body? Also, is it ok to overlap the carbon if you can't get the correct shape out of the single sheet, like for complicated 3d geometry in a split mold? Thanks!
to be honest it will be hard to get perfect cosmetic results with wet lay and vacuumbag...at least thats what I think...And sure you can overlap ;-)
+Matthieu Libeert (Mat's Prototyping) So if you were doing a very large complicated part that's one piece, would you use more than one vacuum pump for the resin infusion? Maybe one at each corner?
+MegaherzZwei what do you call large? you have small pumps and bigger pumps...one should be enough...did a full boat with a friend withone pump but was a big pump :-)
+Matthieu Libeert (Mat's Prototyping) Ahhh ok, yeah not as big as a boat! But apparently it's good to have a big pump!??!?lol Thanks for your vids and quick responses Matthieu!
+MegaherzZwei no problem! good luck with your projects!
Why did you let the nomex fill with resin, thus eliminating all of its structural properties? You need to use prepreg with nomex...
Pre preg is best for use with nomex but can be done with wet layup if the resin is spread and all excess is rolled out of the cloth before putting onto the nomex, although still not as ideal as pre preg
cuanto tiempo se puede dejar conectada una bomba de vació ?
Jon Gonzalez nosotros lo dejamos hasta una semana prendido y despues ocupas cambiarle el aceite
I'm curious about what your vacuum gauge reads. I can only get mine to -.8. Does yours go to -1? Nice project btw, I am making a different kind of seat using your technique.
-1 yes, depends on how strong your vacuumpump can pull
Matthieu Libeert I wonder if -.8 is good enough? I've watched all your carbon fiber videos, the car, the mask, even the lamp!
+Sammyjeans1 depends on what you want to do.... 0.8 Is not that much but ok
Matthieu Libeert Thanks for the advice. I guess I'll have to borrow a vacuum pump. The one I have uses compressed air.
So why did you use glassfiber? I just wonder why you not just use carbon instead - wouldnt that be lighter and even stronger then? 5-6 layers of composite + honescomb sounds a lot like overkill also - i just started working with carbon and made some bigge rparts with 3 layers of carbon 240g/m2 and this is stiff like hell
@C W still carbon fiber is the stronger Material. It just is. Main reason to use Fiberglas in those applications is to cut down on material cost. Often consumers just want the carbon fiber look and dont mind having a fiberglas core if that means it gets less pricy.
@C W can you direct me to more information regarding this technique? I am currently working on a new monocoque design for our fsae team and this sounds like something to look into.
@C W You are a fool masquerading as some sort of wanna-be structural engineer. "I can use X Glass weave, Matt and Fiber line to be ten times stronger than carbon fiber it's all about proper layers placement and knowledge of structural stress joint reinforcement." Since this is false it'll be fun to watch you try and lie so ill ask. Which strength does your foolish weaving have 10 times more of than carbon fiber? Compressive? torsional? be sure to include units you dumb fuck
What about a vacuum bag system for hollow stuff with also a balloon inside the hollow space for internal pressure for the hollow space. Cool. Maybe latex pressure bag. LOL
Wow. That must be an insanely expensive seat! great video. I hope you go into more detail on other videos
Not really.. $35 in materials..
Nice
I have worked with composites for some time, how does a seat for a human being need this much reinforcement?
8MM Nydacore would have made a two step process. Or skrimed honeycomb. Let the mfrs do the hard work.
So if using the carbon fiber, why bother with the fiberglass? Does it really add a lot of strength to the carbon fiber?
It's a thin layer that seals the cores of the honeycomb so they won't get filled with resin with the following heavier layers coming on top
Matthieu Libeert (Mat's Prototyping)
Awesome Vids man keep going :)
i got one question: what kind of vakuumbags are you using? they look like normal clothing vakuumbags but how do you get that valve in there? and where do i get such a valve?
thanks man
Nu begrijp ik waarom er altijd pre-preg gebruikt wordt met honeycomb structuren :,-) dit is super tijdrovend om 3x te vacuumeren.
Als je toch wil sandwichen zonder prepreg maar wel met vacuum kan je een PU gebaseerde sandwich gebruiken. Een stukje zwaarder, maar veel minder werk!
Wat me opvalt is dat je steeds erg zware laminaten gebruikt. Hoe bepaal je de sterkte van een stuk?
Tom Coremans klopt inderdaad
mixing fiberglass + carbon fiber is not a good idea, it's not nearly as strong as you think.
Different elongation, so the fiberglass adds very little strength prior to carbon fiber breaking, as carbon is much more stiff material and has very little elongation before break.
Carbon has 1.4% and Glass 4%+ if i recall correctly, which results that only 1/4 of the glass strength adds to carbon before carbon cracks.
Классно!!!
Won’t the resin from the fiberglass layer run into the honeycomb?
Just a bit, that why you need to saturate the fiberglass with just the amount needed to saturate the fiberglass, so it's works like a layer that adheres to the honeycomb but just seals it 🙂
why don't you just put all the layers on at once? wouldn't that be faster and easier?
How many minutes did you vacume bro?..
Till cured so about four hours I think
Круто 👍