Villain Therapy: JOKER
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 13 май 2024
- Arthur Fleck's swings between manic episodes and serious depression can teach us a bit about what bipolar disorder looks like in real life.
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright take a look at the circumstances that lead Arthur Fleck to become the Joker. When you look at the ways his actions and emotions relate to bipolar disorder, and pair that with some pretty major trauma in his childhood and other circumstances in his life, we've got a really interesting character to look at from a psychological standpoint. And absolutely brilliant filmmaking that bring it to life.
NOTE: As we state in the episode, there is NOT a correlation between mental illness and villainy or violence. Arthur Fleck happens to display some of the traits of bipolar disorder and pseudobulbar effect, but it is his choices, combined with his life experiences/circumstances and the mythology of the DC universe that led him to become a villain (the Joker). We also discuss the ways that the film portrays mental illness and the messages that sends.
And of course Alan has hot takes about just how brilliant Joaquin Phoenix's performance is, just how surprising Todd Phillips' direction is, and what kind of lenses they used to make Gotham look like a complete turdpile. It's enlightening?
Support us!
Patreon: / cinematherapy
Merch: store.dftba.com/collections/c...
Internet Dads Popcorn: ctpopcorn.com
Watch more Villain Therapy episodes: • Villain Therapy: ANAKI...
Check out another video about a VERY different movie about someone dealing with Bipolar Disorder, SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK! • Bipolar Romance in SIL...
Cinema Therapy is:
Written by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Alan Seawright, Megan Seawright, and Jonathan Decker
Edited by: Trevor Horton, tzhediting.com
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis 
Кино
Shout out to our sponsor, Nordpass! Go to nordpass.com/cinematherapy to get 70% off +1 month free!
Amazing episode! I do hope you base an episode of the "Villain Therapy" series on the 2014 movie "Gone Girl". The character of Amy Dunne, as well as the ultimate goal of the movie was highly debated, mostly because we start rooting for her character, and even if we don't, we do not feel particular sympathy towards her victim(s) either. It's a great movie, and it'd be awesome to watch your take on it.
I would love to see your take on Newt Scamander's version of healthy masculinity in Fantastic Beasts. I watched your video on Aragorn and I think Newt is a quieter version of healthy masculinity.
@@teresaellis7062 Any sort of video about Newt! Sry, love the character because I relate to him so much. I'm the social awkward person who will greet your dog instead of you because I'm more comfortable with animals than people.
@@jacqslabz Oh my goodness! I am the same! I am much more likely to interact with someone's dog than the person holding the leash. I am trying to get better at it, but it takes time and effort. My son, who is a total extrovert has helped with that. When he was two he would go up to complete strangers and hug them around their knees. I would have to go up to the person and explain that he really just loved hugging people. It took me a while to help him understand about personal boundaries. At 18, he doesn't hug complete strangers any more, but he loves to chat with EVERYONE.
can you do an episode on "you were never really here"??
Alan, I love how you said “it didn’t glorify it, it exposed it.” This is the essence of the film.
oh my god, yes i kept on seeing reviews saying that they were trying to justify the violence, no they were showing the reality.
I kept switching from triumphant to sad/horrified. On the one hand I deeply empathised with Arthur and thought that I´d probably do similar things, if something really horrible happened (ADHD paired with depression and anxiety does that to ya). On the other hand I just felt sad for him and for those not as fortunate as me. One thing might change the course of things.
Yeah, they who wrote about glorification really need to change their job (maybe housekeeping) as they are clearly incapable of reading a story.
The movie don't do that, but people do glorify joker, the villain, the thing that the mentally ill man has become. And that's disturbing. Joker isn't cool. He's not an icon for the mentally ill. He's a violent criminal.
I never once felt any glorification within the violent scenes of the film. In fact as the film became more and more violent I felt horror and sadness at all the destruction and lives lost.
This movie makes me think of the saying “ it takes a village to raise a child” but the other half of it that people don’t remember is “The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth”
This is so well phrased for this film
This fits too well for this film
Im just now finding out that there’s more to this quote.
I think this other half of the quote accurately depicts Killmonger's feelings for Wakanda, a nation of his forefathers who's never embraced him.
i was coming onto the comments to put that myself
The joker really nailed how it feels to live with mental illness.. there is this sentence in his notebook:"The worst thing about living with a mental illness is that others expect you to act like you don't"
THAT hits sooo hard..
It's so true. Not just any pretentious quote but actually truth.
The fact that Joaquin himself has experienced so much trauma and hurt in his life helps you know WHY his performance is so perfect
Losing his brother and the trauma of that will have helped cause that causes dissociative personality disorder.
@@ChristopherJames1993Well it depends if he did experienced that.
The trauma for sure but it's hard to tell if he developed a dissociative personality disorder unless he said it himself that it happened.
Still just understanding the trauma part is definetely enough to portray a good mentally ill character like Joker because he understand what trauma feels like.
Every time I see him talk about stepping over someone on the street in the interview I just see the word River written all over his face harder than if someone had literally sharpie'd it on his forehead
@@ChristopherJames1993 Is not a dissociative personality disorder tho, is not even the right term nor the right symptoms.
Joker is the film embodiment of the quote "art is to comfort the disturbed, and disturb the comfortable."
Holy shit! You're right! 😲
That's a great quote.
A quote by Cesar A Cruz (not Bansky)
I must say, ever since i saw it on the theater, i felt comforted
Gotta say, it was really hard to watch; very well done. As an artist, a piece of art to me is measured by the level of emotion it can make you feel. Whether that's awe at beauty, sadness, anger, or even feeling greatly disturbed. Wonderful movie.
The stairs in the movie are clear metaphor to his sanity. Early on in the movie you see him slowly and with difficulties climbing up the stairs to sanity, and then later on happily dancing down the stairs to madness. Showing how it's so much easier to just let go.
omg i didn't realise
Wow, good catch! I didn't think of that at all, but you're right!
The stairs also is symbolic of poverty, aka Bronx
I prefer to think of it as chaos/evil rather than madness, because most people who are 'mad' are not necessarily evil or violent. He has the same mental health problems throughout the film, but he gives up trying to cope and be a part of the city/society's norms and embraces his darkest impulses instead.
He chooses that path, and revels in the chaos and destruction.
That is so so Smart and I love it. Bro these film makers are so good
My husband is a psychotic schizophrenic and, after five years of knowing my family, finally "came out " as such to them at Thanksgiving. My uncle, our host, did the same thing I did when he told me, and became interested and asked follow-up questions about what he sees and hears to understand his world better. My husband now feels comfortable with my family because they know how his mind works and don't see him as a monster.
Awesome!
I hope more people learn this and follow your example.
God Bless And Protect you and your husband with Unfailing Love Peace and Joy Forever in Jesus, and have Eternal Life, Amen 🙏💙👍
If it doesn't bother you to answer, how do you handle his illness in today life?
@@arthenmes396 Sorry I'm seven months late. My husband happens to be a fairly high-functioning schizophrenic and has his own situation, but I can definitely tell you about our day-to-day. I guess the best way to start is that he doesn't "sleep" the way we sleep. He lies down and basically dozes all night for most of the week, this is due to his psychosis. Another symptom is that he forgets things a lot. If it's not his daily go to work, go home routine, he forgets events. He will ask me if I took my medication, even if I just took it in front of him ten minutes ago. Today, he couldn't find the hand lotion despite having used it last night. It was in its usual spot, just on our counter, but he couldn't remember what it looked like, so he couldn't find it. He also has voices and hallucinations, naturally. Some days, his voices are like a live studio audience in his head, other days they are cruel and disturbing. Hallucinations are an entirely different beast. Sometimes he'll stiffen up and get a look in his eye and doesn't look away. I usually ask him whether he's seeing something, and when he answers "Yes", I ask whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. When I ask him to describe, he can't because his eyes aren't physically seeing it, it's just neurons misfiring in his brain conjuring up an image. He calls the bad ones monsters, and usually needs some kind of blade on him so that he can stay calm when he sees them. They eventually fade away or blip out of his reality. Hope this helps if you eventually read this!
One of my favorite visual metaphors is how he slowly struggles to climb _up_ the stairs every day, but going down is effortless, just as how much easier it was for him to give in to his violent urges instead of trying to be better.
Good catch
wow! This is such a clever comment. Thanks. Your comment just helped me understand the movie much more😀
He *became* better when he started the killing
"Why should I apologize for the monster I've become? No one ever apologized for making me this way." - Joker
Just out of curiosity, where is this quote from?
@@praveenvijeyakumar741 I believe is when Arthur talk to Murray
@@vivianelaisdefarias its actually from the killing joke o believe
Sounds like an epigraph to "Frankenstein, Or: The Modern Prometheus" by Mary Shelley.
I’ll take fake quotes for 300
As a musician I love the fact that the score was made before the filming, and the film was built on the music.
Wow!
Same thing with Interstellar, I believe
@@WRamos1775 Yup
@@WRamos1775 Both unbelievably good soundtracks!
It works beautifully with the character of the Joker.
“The worst part of having a mental illness is that people expect you to behave as if you don't”
As someone who has adhd and autism, very few quotes have hit home more than that.
If you've battled bipolar, you know exactly what the laugh-crying feeling is like. All intense emotions all at once. You want to scream, laugh, and cry hysterically all at the same time.
I've done it
Me coming off a hypomanic to a depressive bender quicker than usual, 😂😢😂
Yep, that's the truth. (I'm bipolar and I've done it on occasion) 🤣😭😤
The cry laughing (for this character) isn’t because of bipolar. It’s something called pseudo bulbar affect. Phoenix actually watched videos of people with this condition to perfect the laugh.
Ive done it from time to time even though I'm not bipolar. Sometimes life just gets intense enough to make you do it.
“A person not embraced by their tribe will burn it down to feel its warmth.”
This quote came into my mind when Mr. Decker talked about Arthur not having a tribe.
Ah the full saying is something like, "It takes a village to raise a child, a child not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth"
@@oops.its.raquan4599 both are African proverbs, yes 😊
@@ambriaashley3383 The proverbs are so wise. They are so short, but they cut to the core of human nature.
Just like Killmonger from Black Panther
Does anyone know who really said that or it's too old?
I am a social worker who has worked in community mental health as a case manager as well as a therapist, both inpatient and outpatient, for low income communities relying predominantly on Medicaid and sliding fee scale services. The scene where the social worker says, "They don't give a (expletive) about people like you, Arthur" hit so hard because I have crossed paths with so many populations that are fighting to scrape by and all they want is the medication that barely helps them feel stable. I ended up getting a tattoo of Phoenix's Joker on my forearm and it opens so many conversations about this feeling of abandonment and discrimination. Now I also just love the Joker in general so the fact that they used Arthur Fleck to have this conversation about mental health was genius and I may be one of the few who thinks it doesn't take away from the overall Joker character at all. We can be fairly certain at the end of this movie that this story is one of MANY of Joker's origin stories, by his own admission. Then again, I think social workers have a dark sense of humor that helps them appreciate movies like this. Or maybe its just me.
Thank you so much for everything you do.
I heard someone criticizing this film because of the exact scene you mentioned, and they said something along the lines of "It broke my suspension of disbelief for him to just have such bad luck and for there to be no net for him"
I wish that person were right
@@aenjgeal I also wish that person were right because that it is the unfortunate reality. I love what I do but in community mental health, if a social worker and/or therapist are not careful, the burnout is 100% real. Caregiver fatigue, secondary trauma, and lack of support/funding are all part of this reality.
I don’t know you or who you are, but I love you and appreciate you.
I dont think so. I think you guys see and hear what other refuse to see let alone open their ears and heart too. People are suffering. Mental health issues are on the rise and help is unaffordable. "Take this medication and shut up" is basically how I have been treated and counseling is so far out of my budget it hurts.
its such a shame that people have so many stigmas against people with mental illness. As someone who went in for severe depression to some help places, meeting people with bipolar and schizo really made me realize how messed up that stigma is. So many of them were awesome and wonderful people who were so attentive to others and really wanted to connect with people. They were the most genuine people i’ve met. I didnt live in the area most of them were from, so after a week and after being released, I haven’t seen them or talked to them since, but I can genuinely say I miss them so much. So much talent, so many funny and great personalities, so many faces I’ll never forget who probably helped me through that time of my life more than the therapists ever could.
some of the most famous painting artists had these mental health illnesses & are now in our history books & art museums, & societal culture never talks about the good sides of mental health because society is programmed into the negative connotations of the behavioral stigmas & stereotypes
Part of it is every criminal trying to use it as a defense in court despite the fact that it is so cut and dry. Legal insanity is you don't know what you're doing is wrong....if you can make excuses, that shows how you in fact DO know it's wrong and you just fucked yourself. But it does show leeway in terms of short sentences where they can just re offend. These people take advantage of a broken system and we all pay for it
agreed
That's so nice to hear.
An actually positive thing to take out of those effd up situations, is people connecting.
The stigma is there because of the ones who are not so nice and whose symptoms are super severe. One of my aunts was very VERY bipolar she was diagnosed and had medication, but occasionally she would go off her meds because she claimed they made her feel numb, then she would literally just leave without saying a thing to either of her children and leave them completely alone in the midst of one of her episodes, and no one would be able to contact her. She would eventually come back and just act like nothing happened at first, and get angry if confronted with her disappearance. Then she also would be physically violent with her children seemingly out of nowhere for absolutely NO reason whatsoever. Like come into their room in the middle of the night while they were dead asleep and just start wailing on them in a rage when they hadnt done anything wrong.
It is very important to realize that not all mentally ill people are like this, but the ones that scare people, and fear can create associations in a persons mind that are meant for self preservation. Having a negative experience that traumatizes you with someone who has the disorder that makes you afraid of anyone else who has it, even if they arent the same. Or people hearing about these particular people and feeling like they need to protect and defend against them without knowing that it isnt as common as they believe that people with those disorders are dangerous or scary.
It's a whole mess honestly.
As someone on Medicaid, thank you so much for mentioning how hard it is to get mental health help on it! It's almost impossible to find help and no one ever mentions that
I was able to receive ongoing psychiatric/mental health care whole on Medicaid, but only due to a county run program. I'm incredibly lucky, and the resource center has been overloaded for a long time and Covid made it worse with therapists and doctors moving into other fields/practices of medicine. They have less than half of the staff previous to Covid, I lost my therapist the first week of lock down and had to switch unexpectedly (it was hard, to build trust with a new therapist. Luckily, the therapist I have now is even better, but it could have ended up bad... If you can't trust your therapist, it's time to get a new therapist, just FYI/PSA). If I move approx 30 miles in any direction, I lose my mental health care, I HAVE to reside in this county. I researched which counties have for mental health resources, and many of my neighboring counties don't even HAVE mental health resources. I fear constantly that I will lose access to my psychiatrist and my therapist. I'm on medication that if I stop unexpectedly, I could die from withdrawal. Without my regular therapy sessions, I begin to feel uncentered and really not well/like myself. I have attended some support groups in my area, and the amount of people who CAN'T access ongoing mental health treatment even though they are on Medicaid is mind blowing for people. Also, dental care. Only one place in a tricounty area will even take Medicaid patients, it's booked over a year out for appointments, and one of mine got canceled... The system is not designed for mentally ill people to survive, let alone thrive.
When I rewatched this film with my boyfriend, during the scene where the mom is questioned about Arthur's abuse my boyfriend turned to me wide eyed and said, "Why are they blaming her? She is super banged up, clearly she has been beaten badly and likely has been disociating. They're blaming her for allowing him and herself to be beaten up and harmed and they aren't treating her at all like a victim in a rough place." I was shocked because I typically don't have enough compassion for people responsible for children who don't protect them, but listening to him for awhile changed how I viewed parts of the film and how I perceive older siblings and parents in abusive households.
Edit:
Clarifying note as some mentioned that the film blames her because Arthur blames her, when my bf questioned why "they're" blaming her he referred to the people questioning her when she's battered. And the newspaper clipping about her allowing it.
You have a point. Were quick to blame her because " you are supposed to protect your child" but she's the victem too, she was beaten down too. And yeah sure, she should have done something but the way abusers manipulate the situation it makes victems unable to process the situation or even think properly to the point where they are truly helpless. The fault and the monster is the boyfriend and yet, she gets the blame. We blame the victem. And that really sucks.
It's easy to wish that victims of abuse were able to shield their children/siblings from it, but it's a lot harder to do. Hell, growing up I know that my older brother threw me under the bus all the time, but I don't hold it against him. He knew I wouldn't get hit as hard and he was just trying to get through.
(And my dad was married to my mom for nine years, knew she was abusive, but he was justifying it to himself. And when he had a chance to send her to prison he chose not to. Abuse does wild things to a person.)
My father was extremely abusive when he was home- he was a long distance truck driver, so luckily that was a few days every couple of weeks. My mother was usually a kind, compassionate woman- but a switch flipped in her when she knew he'd be home. Everything had to be perfect, and if it wasn't she would flip. Looking back, I understand that it was her fear and stress that caused it- she was terrified he'd kill her if she did something 'wrong', and even more terrified of what could happen if she took us and left. I have two siblings, both close to a decade younger than I am, and by the time I was twelve I was just trying to live long enough to give them a fighting chance to get out of there.
It's been a long, long road to recovery for all of us. And I'm afraid that some parts of me will always be broken, that I'll never be able to love someone or get married or have a family because all of that requires a level of vulnerability and trust that I don't think I'll ever be capable of. But I can't let any of it make me bitter- we live in a harsh world, that can often be casually cruel, but I don't have to be.
Choose kindness and compassion, every day. And remember that there's always more than one side to a story, and so much more beneath the surface than what you might be able to see.
@@sarahhughes1302 thank you for sharing your story
@@sarahhughes1302 I am so sorry that happened to you, I genuinely hope that you're in a better place now, and that you find the kind of peace you're looking for. :) More power to you and yours.
I love how you are clearly showing the difference between mental illness and violence, it’s something that needs to be destigmatized!
Precisely, only between 3% to 5% of violent acts are committed by people with mental health issues.
Exactly!
@@trinaq A film that acknowledges that is weirdly enough the 2018 Halloween film where all the other Smith's Grove patients are harmless and the sheriff mentions later they found them in various places like at a library checking emails and chasing butterflies on the road. It's only Michael Myers who's dangerous and that's because he's a perfectly sane but evil man the doctors just think is insane.
@Hi My Name Is Some are some aren't. It depends.
@Hi My Name Is most murderers are not. They kill for personal gain, or some kind of gratification. There is no mental illness, just a lack of empathy or moral compass.
I never felt like showing mental illness in villains implied that mental illness leads to villainy. I always interpreted it the other way around - it promotes compassion for the villain because of their mental illness.
Yh
I don’t wanna be empathized because of my mental health after shit happen, this everybody can do if the story is told right like the movie did. I wanna a society that can compassionate and act as the signs are showing out
I remember seeing this movie in theaters with my abusive bf (now ex). I was sobbing so hard in the theater because I’ve always struggled with mental health and related to Arthur. I was trying to explain to my ex why the movie struck me so hard. He kept telling me that I was crazy and overreacting. He told me to stop bringing the mood down by spilling my “trauma”. I left him later that year 👏
Girl put him on blast! make a public announcement because if he did that to you imagine what he could do to someone pregnant. Check his history because he might have hurt his exes before you too.
@Ashley Wtf, no? When you break up with someone you don't stalk them and prevent them from moving on to other people. Abusive or not, that's weird.
@@shellshockedbros4458 I said put him on blast it's not stalking it's warning girls that the guy is toxic and don't have a kid with him because it could be dangerous. We know that they never have just one victim they are a bunch of them.
Well that's better then leaving him for the Barbie movie 100 times better
I'm happy to hear you left him and I hope you are doing better now. It'll get better over time.
Arthur needing a male figure who never relents and is unconditionally there reminds me of his dynamic with Batman
And in most stories Batman created him in a way.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive Bad father son relationship.
Opposite sides of the same coin so when joker says “we’re the same you and I..” he’s not wrong…and Batman knows it.
So the Joker's obsession with Batman may stems from his daddy issues. I've never thought if it that way
@@vond5829 not so much that as seeing a kindred spirit and see how much it takes to break Bruce into being like him so he’s not alone anymore.
I love the analogy you have about that desperate need for a male connection. That explains his obsession with Batman so well. It really shines on how well this movie was done
Like he says in The Dark Knight: "You complete me."
This just reminds me of that Batman TAS episode where Bats seems to have died. Joker was literally just standing around in the middle of a jewelry store waiting for him to show up and foil the robbery. He got real sad when he finally realized he wasn’t coming and didn’t even take anything. It was about seeing his best buddy instead of the money
Thanks so much for this video! I am diagnosed with Bipolar 1 and at an acting class once I wrote and performed a silent scene about a character waiting for a bus after a tough breakup. I had the character be sad and then when she heard "sweet dreams" by eurythmics she started dancing. Some smart a** in the class told me that "normal people don't experience emotions like that" and that my character was too "manic" which ngl hurt like hell because I already to fight to justify my existence in mainstream society but to not be "real" enough for costars is what took the cake.
mind you I didn't tell anyone in that class about my diagnosis so it just goes to show how much stigma there is surrounding mood disorders even in the entertainment industry, and I've had acting coaches tell me repeatedly that I can only play villains because my portrayal of characters and my emotional range was not "realistic" for "normal" people. i really wish that there was more understanding of people with mental illness as well as neurodivergence in the acting indistry. Watching this vid made my day and made me feel less alone.
ugh that's so annoying. so many more people experience intense emotions than they let on. most of us are trained to hide it. these experiences need to be normalized more. being able to feel so intensely and deeply can really be a beautiful thing. see: every single soul-touching movie.
(by the way, i dont mean to say let's normalize toxic behavior from strong emotions. i'm saying let's increase awareness that humans can experience the world in more ways than many realize.)
Amen!!! Lol yeah I don’t mean to say normalize toxic behavior by any means but to highlight the nuance and emotional spectrum of the human experience and the reinvent “normal.” Thanks for the comment! :)
@@oliviav4865 no problem! thank you for yours :)
Well that’s stupid- I don’t have any kind of mental illness that would cause that action, but I’ve danced when sad!
ayy I see Neurodivergence, I like.
The most terrifying aspect of every single Joker we've ever gotten is that there may or may not be some diagnosable disorder in each of them, but that disorder is not the cause of their actions. The Joker is never depicted as his crimes being against his own will, acting in a delusional state. He is choosing them every single time. He is calculating, manipulative, and remorseless at all times and while it is possible some disorder makes it somehow easier to do what he does in his various iterations, it is always a willing and enthusiastic ongoing choice to commit the actions. So what is really scary is that if he ever gave perfectly honest answers to psychological evaluation, he could possibly come out with a clean bill of mental health other than some notes of trauma in his past (again, there are many different men who were the Joker.
For Fleck in particular, it is possible that his mental illness wasn't the cause of his crimes, how people treated him was the cause. He was violently attacked, his coworker gave him a gun to protect himself. The men on the train were cruel to both him and a woman passenger who was visibly afraid of them- a man with a lifetime of being tormented and no one coming to help him, he took matters into his own hands and made sure those men would never torment another person. He more or less started targeting people who he felt hurt him personally, arguably crimes of passion even with a certain degree of premeditation. Even at the end killing Murray, it was because he felt personally betrayed and he was obviously being made fun of on a regional scale of broadcast television. He was aware of what he was doing at all times, and he willingly pursued the people and carried out the murders. And had those people never hurt him, he may have just been a person with a nervous disorder and some vivid fantasies. The only time he seems to have a serious delusion (iirc, please point out other moments where what he thought was happening was not actually happening) was in the woman's apartment, which could have been the result of the lacking medication more than any of the obvious crimes. And by the end, he did not intentionally start the political movement, the movement was practically inevitable- but when the crowds of Gotham started seeing him as some kind of leader, he just accepted their praise because it is the most loved and supported he may have ever felt. He was no Clown Prince of Crime, no Anarchist, and no Gangster. He was something totally new, a 4th Joker- the revenge killer. And even with therapy and proper medication, several if not most of the events of the movie may still have happened. He was a very unhappy and externally tormented man who just wanted the same peace and happiness everyone wants, and then someone gave him a gun.
And what SHOULD terrify your average person the most is his punchline with Murray: "What do you get when you cross a mentally ill loner with a society who abandons him and treats him like trash? You get what you *** deserve." Every person who watched this scene play out should think about every person they ever hurt, intentionally or through inaction. Because we are never the only person who hurts any given person. Everyone is hurt by countless people through life with varying frequency and severity. And they just might remember what you did to them, or didn't help them with. Treat people with kindness, compassion, and empathy, because madness is like gravity, all it takes is a little push- One bad day.
Well, there are *lots* of moments in the movie various fans have argued were just hallucinations and/or false self-serving memories. Some even go so far as to claim the whole thing is just a story he was making up to tell to the therapist at the end (although I dismiss that theory as a cynically overused and extremely hasty leap to conclusions; a story's having some plot holes or a few bizarre inconsistencies doesn't justify dismissing the WHOLE FRIGGIN' THING as the protagonist's dream or hallucination). It's also worth mentioning that the movie itself reveals that several of the moments are fake: Murray being the father figure Arthur never had, and his neighbor Sophie being totally into Arthur and everything he does, even though he's a creepy stalker and a comedian. (As a lot of women will tell you, nobody likes a creepy stalker unless he's extremely good-looking like Edward Cullen from the Twilight franchise; and as the popular comedian Jeff Foxworthy once pointed out in his autobiography, "You don't see women throwing their panties on stage for comedians.")
Apart from that whole imaginary relationship with Sophie you mentioned, however, I would point to two other parts that were probably imaginary: the scene where he hunts down and finishes off the third guy who attacked him in the subway (whom supplementary materials inform me is named Ryan) and the scene in which Arthur lets the little clown Gary leave his apartment after killing the big clown Randall. In the subway scene, the reason I think Arthur's hunting down and finishing off Ryan is imaginary is because the gun he was using was a special model of revolver which can only hold five bullets at a time, and there's no obvious part of the scene in which he could have reloaded it; and yet if you count the shots, he somehow fired it eight times in all. Since that's impossible, I figure that while he did in fact manage to kill all three of his attackers, those last three shots he shouldn't have been able to fire (all of which he supposedly used to finish the guy off) were some of his wishful thinking that later got incorporated into his self-serving memories of the event ("I should've put a few more holes in that guy!") and Ryan actually managed to get away from Arthur long enough to give his own self-serving account of what happened to somebody before he succumbed to his wounds. (Otherwise, how else did the police know and report to the news that the killer was some guy dressed as a clown?)
As for Arthur letting his little clown friend go after stabbing Randall to death, as this Cinema Therapy video (and the How It Should Have Ended video) for this movie points out, it's a bit of a plot hole that Gary didn't immediately go to the police with his information; he was clearly upset over the murder, and knew where his murderous former co-worker was going to be that evening. So why didn't he do that? My theory is that Gary-like Sophie-was an actual person who'd been nice to the protagonist on occasion, but-again like Sophie-most of his relationship with him (especially after Arthur got fired from the clown agency) was imaginary; in other words, that little guy *was never there* when he killed Randall, and his letting him go afterward as a reward for being nice to him was just more wishful thinking ("Yeah, I always do right by people who do right by me!") Joker later incorporated into his self-serving memories.
Gary's presence being entirely imaginary also serves as something of a symbolic counterpart to one of the clues to his relationship with Sophie being imaginary: she's a single mother and has a little daughter, and yet once he starts imagining his whole romantic relationship with his neighbor, the kid just vanishes from the story and never intrudes on them at all; something that anyone who's ever dated a single mother can tell you is extremely unrealistic, as kids generally do tend to be needy and demanding of their mothers' attention. So the little girl's convenient disappearance during a whole relationship that never happened sets up an inverse counterpoint to the little clown's inconvenient appearance during the murder which *did* happen; and also foreshadows the canonical-according to the director-plot point that yeah, Arthur did in fact leave Sophie alive because-like Gary-she was (for all five minutes or so that she was aware of his existence) always nice to him.
@@RiprakeI think the relationship was fake but everything else was real maybe he only shot one and his other two were his anger because if it was that he escaped a lot more cops would have been after him first not just the little pair.
It's a sad state of affairs when it takes threats to encourage people to be "nice"
I love your comment and I thought about some mass shootings in schools when some students were not shot at because they were nice in some moments to the shooters.
It makes me think that if no one was bullied and alienated at school there wouldn't be so many tragedies (also having firearms so handy and easy to get would decrease these terrible shootings).
We need to be kind to others because we don't know what they have been carrying in their backs and there's no need to add offense to the injured.
I hope we get to revisit this after the sequel. Trailers have shown that he will be in what is likely Arkham Asylum where he will meet Harleen Quinzel as a fellow patient rather than his therapist, and that they may build an actual connection and romance- still likely unhealthy- rather than it just being him manipulating her. The story seems like it will be him in a place of healing where the influences around him will encourage further violent behavior. A Joker who MIGHT have been rehabilitated if he weren't put around people who liked what he did and wanted him to do more.
And a direction this Joker could go with the precedents set up- is something closer to Two Face and his supporters- taking the law into his own hands and killing or committing crimes against people he feels are 'horrible'. Basically a MUCH darker version of Batman- not necessarily targetting 'criminals', but the kinds of people who actually make life worse for people who are just trying to live their lives in peace. This is such a new Joker that there are very interesting directions to take his mental health, his external influences, and his choices.
I have not seen Joker but I did just noticed that one guy who's nice to him is a character played by an actor with dwarfism who isn't the butt of a joke and isn't a fantasy creature, is just a regular character. Can we just appreciate how rare that is? (I haven't seen the film, granted, so i can't say if his height does go on to be the butt of a joke)
He kind of his the butt of the joke a couple of times but just to show that the people who worked with Arthur are kind of jerks. But the movie actually kinda mocks his height in the scene where Joker kills the other man in front of him, and once he allows him to leave he is too short to open the lock himself so he has to ask Arthur for help even tho he's terrified 😳
@@NatTalks01 I don't think you're supposed to find that funny, though. It makes him more vulnerable and it makes the scene more frightening. Not funny.
@@TheHopperUK I agree.
@@TheHopperUK I get that, but the way you feel disturbed in that scene and then the jumping to reach the door, kinda unavoidable to laugh, I can recognize it's completely messed up and I wouldn't normally laugh at that, but the film does present it as disturbing comedy
@@TheHopperUK It was pretty funny though
The fact they are so gentle with mental illness really does make me feel so welcomed. If that's the right way to put it. But this is cinema therapy it is already very welcoming but as someone who deals with adhd it really makes me feel ok about having it rather than being something wrong or dangerous.
We're all just trying to get along, ya know?
I highly agree. Though I have ADD (among other things) I found this video very relatable and very relieving.
I have ADHD too. And we’re definitely not broken or dangerous. Just keep trying to figure out what works for you in life.
I deal with ADHD as well. I’ve learned to accept that it’s part of who I am, and embraced the unique aspects it brings to me- a kind of sideways creativity that lets me leap to connecting two different concepts, being able to notice the details others don’t. Even being able to leap into roles and write or act characters- I’ve got a degree in theatre and English. We all learn our coping mechanisms. I’ve got my to-do lists, make myself tackle big projects like cleaning up a room by doing a bit of it every day, and, yeah, my routines so I don’t forget stuff. Almost OCD at times, which can annoy people around me, but I’m me.
Was on Ritalin as a kid- it stifled my creativity. I did my best creative work when I didn’t take it.
On Dextroamphetamine now, which smooths out the mood swings without impacting my creativity.
Anyway, kind of forgot my point 😅😂 but just wanted you to know you’re not alone.
Was ADHD the reading disorder? Or the one where one isn't able to pay attention for long?
(Becouse none of the above scream "dangerous" to me)
I read a tweet that, paraphrased, said something along the lines of 'humanizing villains isn't about glorifying them; it's about illustrating that under the same circumstances, you could become a villain, too'. I agree so much with this statement. I think sometimes we are inclined to view the world in very black and white terms, where people are either essentially good or bad. But sometimes we don't see how much luck and privilege play into this. Everyone wants to think that they're a hero who got to where they are through good choices and hard work, but a lot of the time, it's because all they had were good choices. The Joker could have turned out vastly differently if he was born into the Waynes's money and had access to proper healthcare and other support systems.
I completely agree... I also thought that if he grew up in Wayne's family, there would've been no Joker
The whole movie, especially the ending, feels like an attribution of "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth."
This film broke my heart more than anything. He needed help, he asked for help, but unfortunately the system failed him.
@@MilanElan society too unless those guys beating him up in the alleyway were his cousins and the social worker was his aunt
@@MilanElan society isnt a neutral thing its literally doing something to make it harder for people with mental illness to survive its not a neutral party like you think it is
@@MilanElan An every-man-for-himself kind of society is no society at all. You can call it whatever you want, but that is no society. For something to even be called a society, there must be a level of responsability towards each other. If you don't want to live in a society, if the notion of social responsability is too much for you, you should go to a desert island. If you want to live in a society, and intend to reap the benefits that come with living in a society, you have to give something in return.
@@MilanElan Well you've completely missed the point of the film
MilanElan What a pathetic sociopathic world view you have. I can't stand this empty and selfish world view. If society owes no one anything than that means we never hold people accountable and find no compassion for those struggling the most in our societies. It leads to no growth, no change, no exploration. Cruelty destroys people even when it comes from outside their supposed tribe. Society in and of itself is a huge tribe. We all rely on one another with the jobs and roles we play and we all give and take from one another in the system we built, so yes, society does owe us basic respect and kindness. Humans with your mindset are part of the issue and feed these toxic behaviors and mindets into the society. It doesn't have to be that way, but we choose to fail one another everyday.
Also, in comic canon, Batman is the only one who Joker feels really "gets" him, and this is probably the closest thing to a real relationship Joker has ever had. Which is why in most modern Joker stories Joker never really wants to kill Batman. Batman "completes" him.
Lego Batman
In Arkham City he even says at one point "It's selfish really but we need each other. Life would be so boring without you. Who would I talk to? Who would really understand me?"
I'm totally ignorant about the comics, so when I was watching the movie I got pretty excited at the idea of Joker and Batman being half-brothers! I see how they definitely had an interesting connection.
There's a video essay on this concept. It's called Queercoding and I recommend watching the video essay about Lego Batman for a full breakdown. :)
@@trinityredford1415 its definitely toxic queercoding
It's really not stigmatizing because he was pushed to that point. There were so many things that added up to that point. Anyone could be pushed to that point regardless of mental illness. They made Arthur so human and so relatable.
Everything you said about him needing a male therapist is absolutely correct. Thats a strong point to make and really shows why things go so badly when he's not given a male therapist in the sequel, he's given a female, named Harleen Quinzell
Always love that Murray makes fun of Arthur for having a book of jokes when he himself probably has a team of writers and a guy jotting things down on cue cards
Seems scary having people like that without therapy and proper medication and nutrition. He seems so traumatized was pushed to the edge by traumas, hereditary condition and bullies. Is a ambivalence of pity and outrage towards this character famous as the Batman is. All plays in his head like American Psycho so did he committed those killings or was a fantasy to cope with his condition?
Talk show hosts do actually have to spontaneously field their guests, especially when their guests go off script. And often the host has rehearsed, but the guest didn't, so the guest answers a planned question in a totally unexpected way. It's pretty much Graham Norton's whole show.
You know who needs therapy? Batman.
Why? BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!
@@quintinfoutz haha that's great. But yea the man definitely needs a therapist
He sure as hell could afford one anyway lmao
@@katierasburn9571 he should be open about his secret identity tho, he don't like that
For real though. He has some deep traumas
The thing I love most about this movie is how uncomfortable I feel from the very beginning to the very end when watching it. Masterpiece
I’ve been thinking about that so much lately, but the media and stuff that I love the most is always one that leaves the biggest impact on me, which is always due to disturbing image. Joker is my favourite live action movie, Coraline is my favourite animated movie, No Longer Human by Osamu Dazai is my favourite book and Scissors by Slipknot is my favourite song. All of those I admire so much for making me feel deeply uncomfortable/unsettled/sad
As somebody with mental illness and a developmental disorder, I viewed this movie as a show of what would happen if society reached a breaking point, through the lense of a citizen that was trying to get better but was repeatedly beaten down for it. He wasn't always a bad person, he had kindness in him, he had care, but he was also not well and the more that people bullied him the more he began to crack until he officially lost it.
Mental illness is not bad but when it comes from dark places and that person is drowned in that darkness with no escape, no way to breathe, nobody there to pull them out, it can end up following someone in their decent into a dark and demented mindset. It's the same as how I feel about Jinx from Arcane; it's not the mental illness that's the problem, it's the society that beats the person down until they see no other option other than being a murderous psychopath.
"I actually never recommend that in therapy, that you off your parents" and Alan's response "I learned something new!" had me cackling with laughter
S A M E
Yeah, I rarely actually laugh audibly watching videos on youtube but that part got me
If I'm not mistaken, he ended up cutting his parents off, didn't he?
No matter how much damage they caused, if you think they deserve to suffer, don't give them mercy, and an escape from pain.
Cunningly give them truth. Slowly. Let it devour like rot consumes
@@Blessed_V0id Unfortunately that precludes them having empathy. Else I agree entirely.
No, I don't think Jokers loves _violence_
- He loves feeling powerful. and significant.
- And he loves when people cheer for him for once.
I think he loves justice and revenge. The people he murdered where those who hurt him and wronged him.
I think you're right but once he realizes violence brings those things he goes all in for it. So ye. He loves violence because it works as an escapism and he feels fully powerful, he goes all maniac
I also think it's being in control for once.
"is it just me? or is it getting crazier out there?"
"have you seen what it's like out there...?"
"nobody's civil anymore!"
Arthur just learned to speak their language.
Ge loves justicr
Living with Bipolar, what made this film even more genius to me is having it set in the late 70s early 80s. A time period, to my memory, that was particularly callus and apathetic to anyone divergent. I found this the most relatable portrait of the time I've seen on a post 90s film.
I cried a lot watching the joker movie. I was bullied most of my life, by classmates and my own family, physically and emotionally. I witnessed physical abuse as well, and eventually, when I got older, I finally snapped. Something in me, just said, nope I’m done, I’m fighting back the only way I know how, and was taught, which was physical abuse. Caught ALOT of juvenile battery and domestic battery cases, but when I was anywhere, wether it was during school, juvy, a shelter, etc. I ALWAYS wanted to help the kids that were not popular, were being bullied, treated less than or being taken advantage of. Now as an adult, I realized I just didn’t have a good support system at home, friends, or partner. I know that I have empathy, I know that I’m kind, generous, loving, forgiving, etc. it’s the people around me that didn’t deserve me, and I know it sounds so cocky but I promise it’s not lol. It took me a LONG time to figure out, you GOTTA love yourself, and if you don’t, then putting in the work and effort to love yourself is KEY, self care, and doing inner work like talking to your inner child and give him/her the love and compassion you never received in life. Because if you hang onto the times you gave yourself to others, and all they’d do was take advantage, hurt you, or betray you, it will only build up inside and come out as anger, sometimes violence. Gotta work through our emotions, thoughts, and trauma. Cutting off the people that triggered such a negative reaction from you, is the best choice imo, in my case, it was my family, friends and partner lol, but I do think boundaries work just fine if they’re not verbally and psychologically abusive. I agree, the jokers actions are not part of his mental illness, it’s the abuse he’s been receiving that triggered his reaction, and with the lack of mental help, he lacked the mental tools to self regulate and the knowledge of what to do before or after an upsetting situation. Also the fact that he didn’t have anyone to vent to and express himself to so that he can release some of the tension built up inside his mind really played a part in his stress levels, I noticed I feel much better doing recordings as my journal rather than writing and for some reason I feel like a lot of people going through some hard situations, would benefit better from audio journals, as opposed to writing. Physical violence is such an easy action to do, just like anger is easier to feel than it is to acknowledge any negative feelings like disappointment, jealousy, embarrassment, betrayal etc.
Same. I was abused quite a lot growing up. It didn't stop until I was well into college. One of the reasons the government helped me pay for college was so I could live in a dorm and escape my abusive situation as much as possible. I still had to experience it when I was forced to go home for breaks but it was much better than dealing with it all the time. My mom enrolled me in Big Brothers Big Sisters when I was six and that person provided the only safe space I had. She had some idea what went on at my house so she tried to let me stay over as much as possible. She'd help me with my homework and was very concerned about my grades. She was like a second mom. We've known each other for over 30 years now.
One day she commented while I was growing up she wondered if she was going to get a call saying one of my brothers killed me, because that's how bad it got sometimes. I can't imagine what that must have been like for her. To try so hard to protect a young girl from violence while only being able to help over the weekend. She also noted I never once had a bruise despite repeatedly being physically abused. I think the lack of bruising made it easier for people to ignore. I never went to school with black eyes or anything like that despite being repeatedly punched in the face.
I lashed out only in defense when I was being attacked. I'm not physically strong or anything. I've lost every fight I've been in so I usually attacked the only person I could - myself. I know even though I'm almost 40, I still have some PTSD from what I experienced. I've changed quite a lot since I moved away from home. But the scars are very deep and I can tell I'm different from most people. I seem to say the wrong things, especially at work, so maybe I'll go back to being quiet.
I guess on a good note, I'm on good terms with most of my former abusers. We've actually become a very tight knit family willing to support each other through these tough times.
As someone with mental illness, eventhough I live by kindness and avoid all harm, I'm glad it makes people uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to be us. It's uncomfortable to have these issues but also how ostracized it makes us, how people will harm us in various ways, how the system completely lets us down again and again. It's the joker so of course he had to end in violence but in reality, for most of us... It ends with suicide. I'm glad people got to experience that feeling and now may be a little more empathic
Right up there with you on most points. This movie did not glorify violence, it did not make (hopefully) anyone feel sad for those of us who have mental illness(es), it was deeply disturbing as to how quickly one can fall down the rabbit hole when treatment is not available - and so many other things.
I remember by the end of the movie my mouth was hanging open. I was absolutely horrified. I am not sure if that word is strong enough. Terrified? Not sure. When movies are plausible like this, it makes them much scarier to me. And when I see aspects of MYSELF in them (the mania, the depression, the fear of running out of medication, the hopelessness & feeling as though no one 'gets' you, the constant paranoia, irrational thinking, over reacting...I actually wanted to list every one of them that I felt so that way if anyone reads this (as late as this comment is to the video), mayhap they can find a piece of themselves in there.
Mayhap they can relate to us, Morgan - and SO many others - and respond.
Your comment is so great! I wasn't going to say anything bc I am so late. I actually paused this 5 mins and 29 secs into it bc I saw your words.
I am a happy hippie. My 'saying' since 2005 has been "Hate makes you ugly, and nobody likes ugly people". Physical looks fade, plus one can't read a book by its cover. Nor can they simply flip through the Cliff Notes. If others who are not afflicted would join the millions of others who have given the time, than maybe those that slip through the cracks will be caught by supportive and caring arms.
I'm getting carried away bc I am so passionate about Mental Health Awareness.
Your post is beautiful, and you sure do seem very beautiful yourself💜
AAAAAAAMEN!
I'm glad I don't have to be ashamed or afraid to say that I related to Arthur a lot. I kinda feel like the people I've told in my life wont take that seriously. im optimistic tho. eh
@@batmanbeatingupfurbies4865 don't let people control your life. They say some insane shit to exercise some form of control. But life ain't about control. Don't let them make it about that for you
It's also a reflection on society and how it values people and mental health treatment.
Like everyone is shocked, SHOCKED, that 3 rich, white guys were killed (never mind they were about to assault a woman and were assaulting a man).
But the fact poor people are dying every day? Wgaf. If Arthur had died on the train by those guys? Not even on the news, maybe a tiny newspaper article mention.
The mental health funding? Not important. Only poor people use it and they can't contribute to our political fund raisers.
It all shows a picture of how important these services are, how many people need it and how quickly a mental illness can spiral
I loved how this movie made me feel sympathy for it's main character; only for it to completely destroy that sympathy.
At times, it's kind of like seeing a deadly spider with broken legs: your instinct says 'danger, get away from it', but also you feel really bad for it because it's so hurt.
That's a tragic villain done right. Where what happened to them explains what they're doing but doesn't justify it. Unfortunately that type of villain is done badly a lot where bad writers portray as if their backstory made them do it and justified them doing it when it didn't.
I don't have sympathy with the villain, but with the human being that became the villain. Health care, especially mental health care is so important. For all of us.
I felt sympathy for him all the way, yes what he ended up doing was wrong, but I understand why he did it.
@@ElisaSarah That's empathy. Empathy is when you can understand someone's frame of reference and how they might feel. Sympathy is when you feel it with them, and it kind of implies approval or justification.
I empathise with him all the way through, but he loses my sympathy the moment his self-defence turns into vengeance, and when he starts crossing major red lines like bringing a gun into a kid's hospital or walking into that woman's apartment.
As someone who had rapid cycling bipolar I appreciate you discussing it. No one ever talks about it
the crawling into the fridge scene was so upsettingly relatable to me, just wanting to get into a dark cool space away from it all. i found myself thinking "oh man, yeah, that would be a really nice reprieve in there"
thanks for the clarification of how mentally ill folks are more likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators! there's a lot of confusion about this, unfortunately 😕
YES OMG YES. As someone who suffers from severe mental illness, I can vouch for this. Those of us who suffer from severe mental illness need compassion, we really do. We're not trying to hurt others, we're not well and we need help, and I just want others to know that.
The mentally ill are shunned. They are excluded from happy occasions. No one listens to thier painful anger or complaints of violence, theft or rape.
Dealing with bipolar, I can admit that in what I call my "anger episodes". I literally have to have something to break, otherwise I literally start punching myself just out of the fact that I hate that side of my brain. I pretty much blame myself for having all this.
@@elderxemo92 There's no guilt in having a mental condition. The hardest part of the responsibility it comes with is finding a way of dealing with it that is neither harmful to yourself nor to others. When it comes to absolutely existential situations, it is okay to prioritize the first, save yourself. It's sometimes especially hard for a mentally ill person, often even for a sane person, to recognize whether a situation is existentially dangerous to them. I guess one of the reasons that mentally ill people fall more often victim to and perpetrate less violent crimes is that they often feel there is "something wrong" with themselves, so they tend to give others the benefit of the doubt; whereas so-called "sane" people rather tend to assume they are in the right by default.
@@factoidnerdist199 can I hug you?
I think there was something about Arthur not succumbing to violence right away that really made this movie special. Like the first few times he was beat up he just accepted, he wasn't angry and didn't have a violent outburst, but then on the train, when the hecklers weren't being violent towards him, that's when he popped off. I thought that was great.
verdean613-The hecklers on the train were being violent to Arthur though. Don't you remember they at first start off bullying him when they notice him there after the woman they were sexually harassing leaves, & then they start beating the crap out of Arthur just like those teenagers were at the start, but instead of doing nothing about it & just letting it happen like he did with those kids, he takes out the gun his work colleague gave him and uses it for the first time.
@@kirstyfairly4371 ...also Arthur had an outburst in the back alley after he had trouble at work (the scene where he kicks into the trash bags and throws himself onto them).
Or when Arthus punches the clock off the wall.
@@laterreurrouge1917 but that type of outburst is normal for humans we all get angry sometimes and have outbursts, but we don't kill people
@@Monk-E I was pointing out that Arthur DID have outburst before the big hits later in the movie.
It's not like he sat through everything like an emotionless rock.
You know what I mean ?
And to be fair:
It's not exactly normal to punch the clock off the wall at work. That's a spontaneous loss of impulse control.
(Yes, I experienced similar impulses in the past...so I get how Arthur might have felt etc. But I can admit, that is an improper response to emotions)
His first bit of violence is self defense, dude.
I think the movie pretty much runs underneath the character stuff this theme of poverty is a force crushing the little people and that when you're only getting stomped on and you have nothing, is it really such a surprise violence of some kind erupts. It's layered. Gotham itself is a powder keg and Arthur became the spark.
I have a neighbor with brain damage from a car accident. Not his fault. His father's, who died in the accident.
I went to see his public therapist once, just for a minute, and she told me she had 600 clients.
He was eligible for disability income and I was critical she hadn't helped him get it earlier.
I took him through the process and he was approved.
His I.Q. is about 42. He showed me the papers.
He had been a lot smarter, and he still presents as smarter because, I think, he grew up smart.
600 clients!!!
As my mom says "everyone should go to therapy, whether you need it or not." Because we all have issues we need to bypass and there are specialized practices for all issues, for everything from mental illness to minor issues with motivation. My mother used to be a family therapist who worked with problem parents and children who were mentally disabled.
It's nice to see that this channel is spreading that message, that the mentally ill aren't the problem but how we are treated by others. I don't have anything super outstanding and obvious but I have Autism, ADHD, anxiety, and depression. I will act weird in public sometimes, like if I'm tired. I want my mom to watch this channel because she would enjoy it so much. She used to use movies to teach about what certain disorders look like to both staff and patients. Finding Nemo was her golden goose because it had many examples
Your mom is right 💜✨
even healthy people gotta eat vegetables
As someone with Tourettes, I relate with Arthur's outbursts and the stigma it brings, especially in public settings. That little "I HAVE A CONDITION" card he carries hits home because I used to have a stack of those for church, the grocery store, etc. The thing that stands out to me- with Arthur's cards and mine- is how we each asked folks to pardon or forgive our behavior. Yes, as a courtesy, but I used to wonder why I was made to feel like I had to apologize for having a tic disorder, something I still find myself doing, out of habit.
Don’t ever feel bad that you have a “condition”. Yes you have it, but don’t feel like you have to apologize for it.
It’s not your fault.
Yes it may be surprising to some some but life is full of surprises. Deal with it, other people who don’t understand or sympathize with people who have mental illness.
I don't think you should ever _apologize_ for such a disorder, but just explain it matter of factly, if you feel like it.
A simple, "It's just tourettes," is perfectly sufficient to explain any oddities.
@@GoddoDoggo There's a difference between over-apologizing for having a disorder (which can cause problematic feelings of shame leading to a negative self-image), and being considerate of others around you (and their feelings). Though at the same time, I think society as a whole could stand to be a lot less judgmental to everyone (those with all mental issues, with different skin colors, physical disabilities, gender, etc etc etc). Forgive my soapbox, but I agree with stoicism in that something only bothers you if decide it is annoying. I think even the "mental healthy" could use some lessons from therapy.
Instead of apologizing for inconveniences, just thank them for their indulgence. A little bit of gratitude can be beneficial for everyone in such situations
I have Tourettes too and watching the movie really did sting a bit. The fact is, this is who we are no matter how severe or mild our condition is, we can't change or control this and it doesn't and will never make us less human or worthy of respect than any other person. We don't have anything to apologize for. Please remember that you're not alone in this and the fact that we're different from others in a way that we can't change doesn't mean that we have to bend our lives around others in the name of courtesy. 💙
The last time i was this early, Arthur was still sane
The last time I was this early, I was still sane.
@@leonmayne797 When I tell you I turned into a literal witch and started cackling at this comment-
Ok. This has me wheezing and laughing like Arthur
Boom, 666th like 👍
This movie reminds me of a quote I once heard:
"The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth."
I know it’s dark but when his coworker couldn’t reach the door lock and had to ask joker for help I always die laughing. Perfect joker joke right there
I love the fact that before this movie was released, news outlets said "This movie will start riots" but after its release they went "Please start riots so we can be right."
Well riots did happen shortly after nationwide in the US but definitely NOT because of this film
It's also fucked up how much the media practically wanted a mass shooting to happen because of this film. Just to paint it in a bad light.
@@Missjunebugfreak they was hoping for another movie theater shooting like the dark knight movie had. Remember that one guy who dressed like the joker and shot up a movie theater
The irony is instead of riots ppl and tourists went to the stairs that Phoenix was dancing on and took pics on it😂
The media did a MAJOR crime against this movie. In no way was this movie even related to inceldom.
I think my favorite thing about Joker is that it doesn't need to be a Batman movie. It doesn't rely too heavily on DC or the Batman franchise. It is a story on it's own and that is absolutely beautiful
That's why Joker succeeds where Venom fails. Because you can have a Joker film without Batman since even though in most continuities we don't know what it is Joker had a life before he met Batman and fell into the chemical vat. Whereas Venom's origin depends on the symbiote trying to bond to Spider-Man, him getting rid of it and it bonding to Eddie Brock with both of them wanting revenge on Peter. That's why the Venom film not having Spider-Man in it and Eddie getting the symbiote without him doomed it and will doom its upcoming sequel to failure.
This guy isn't the joker. At all. He has a doff name. A foff backstory. Diff motives. He not th joker. No fan would consider him the joker
@@sharpaycutie2 I am a fan and I absolutely consider him the Joker.
But since DC does a beautiful job playing around with ideas in all those "elseworld stories", THIS can be just an idea, A way how this character could have loved and happened.
It is A (!) story. And a really good one.
@@sharpaycutie2 He is the Joker
Take it out of the DC universe and it's a chilling cautionary tale about what happens when society abandons its most vulnerable population.
I had this on in the background as I am doing lesson planning. I had to stop immediately and thank you for pointing out that people with mental illness are more likely to have something happen to them than they are to be the perpetrator. I have Bipolar myself and I hate it when media mentions that a school shooter or some other violent act has something like bipolar. It makes people weary of us and it makes us not want to be open about our mental health. I once was using a dating site and was talking to a woman. I disclosed that I have BP. She responded "But you won't murder me in my sleep right?" It really really hurt me - probably more than it should have.
When I watched the film at the cinema, I cried for more than half of its duration, simply because I thought it was so incredibly unfair how he was treated by the people around him, I felt so sorry for him. It was an extremely uncomfortable experience but I still want to watch it again sometime - I do believe it can teach empathy and compassion, at least that was what I took away from it. I just don't know when I'll be ready for crying that much again...Thank you for analyzing the psychological aspects, this was a very fascinating insight!
@Suebian Oh thank you, that's a very nice thing to say - and it made me smile :)
I usually cry a lot when watching sad films. For instance, when I watched Angel's Egg by Mamoru Oshii, I then cried for 3 days and mourned for 6 days more. When starting to watch the Joker, I prepared a pack of tissues and was expecting to shed buckets of tears, based on what I'd heard about the movie. Surprisingly, however, it wasn't what happened...
Instead, I felt detached and alienated from Arthur even at the most disturbing and traumatizing moments. And I’m the person who usually fully immerses myself in the characters’ emotions. I am wondering why it wasn’t the case with me here.
I felt like the film creators went overboard with portraying how gruesome Arthur's life is.. It's just hard to believe that such an unremitting sequence of traumatizing events is possible in real life. (You're watching every new scene and you think: okay, I’m expecting something bad here - are they gonna beat him up? And they do.)
Another reason why I felt detached might be that Arthur is portrayed in a realistic way, and we are deliberately shown all his unsettling and unflattering traits as well. Like, when he’s stalking the woman, having awkward fantasies of being hugged by Murray on stage, or putting his fingers in little Bruce Wayne’s mouth to force a smile on him. It isn’t teary, but rather unsettling and uncomfortable to watch. You get a lot of “fremdschämen” moments. I felt that if I met him in real life at one of these moments, I might’ve been creeped out.. Which is terribly sad to realize, because I understand really well that Arthur is one of those people who have a lot of kindness and potential and who deserve to be loved and cared for, but whose social awkwardness adds to their mental issues and trauma even more. And problems with socialization is a vicious circle for which they can’t be blamed.
So yes, I believe the movie has taught me to be more understanding towards people who are somehow different.
I think the Deadpool movies would make an interesting video, because under all the humor and gore is a story about a guilt-stricken man who tries to hide his pain by cracking jokes and peoples' heads
I would love to have a deadpool video. Wade is a guy with severe trauma issues and a penchant for coping through violence, but he also loves deeply, and maintains his ability to be vulnerable, and refuses to crumble under the weight of how awful his life objectively is, and that dichotomy is fascinating for me. Truly an icon, except for all the murder. I adore Deadpool.
Yes, please! Deadpool!
I see less of it in the movies, but if they looked at the Deadpool of the comics now THAT would be interesting. Cause he is truly mentally damaged there and I'd find what they had to say on that really interesting
100%
He feels so insecure and so much guilt he broke the fourth wall so escape the pain 😭🤧
Im diagnosed with depression and severe mood swings- this movie had me f’ed up for days
I can imagine. It's... not an easy watch.
Same with me. I have bipolar and was really scared by how much the movie was sticking with me. Not that I wanted to go out and hurt others-that’s one of my greatest fears in life and I try so hard not to get caught up in that. I thought the movie was great and Phoenix is one fo the best actors around, but I haven’t been able to watch the movie since.
SAME
@@riverofjoystudios7693 I think anyone who doesn’t understand mental illnesses should sit down with a person who does and watch this together it’s the most accurate display I’ve ever seen from Hollywood
Same! I have schizo effective bipolar disorder and when I realized he "imagined" his entire relationship with that woman, I wanted to throw up.
I know I'm way late to this, but the scariest part and the best acting for me was the dissociation in his eyes in the final scene - I feel like I'm watching a character, and the real person is now lost somewhere deep down in those eyes watching the same character right alongside me - it's creepy and amazing at the same time - I've never seen another actor pull that off...
As a type 2 bipolar person with a minor degree in neuropsychology, I find this so interesting. I have twice experienced episodes of uncontrollable laughter, to the point where I was splashing cold water on my face in an attempt to stop it. That was a few decades before I was appropriately diagnosed. Thanks. You are both entertaining and educational. : )
I am not sure that what you experienced is the same as mine. I have had 3 uncontrollable laughter attacks, but I absolutely remember what triggered them. All three lasted for minutes, and how many minutes is unknown, and I ended up on the floor for all of them. When I would stop, I would look at the trigger again and relapse. It has taken decades for those triggers to lose their power, now I just smile. I did not resist them in the slightest, I let them exhaust themselves and was grateful for the release. I wish I could find something else to trigger me again like that, I desperately miss that kind of laughter, it has been 25 years since I laughed that completely. And now I am sad, very sad. Laughter is very therapeutic, and is needed daily. PERHAPS you were needing that release so badly that your mind delivered it, not at all caring whether or not you thought you wanted it? Our subconscious often does know what we need more than we do. I do not know your issues, and do not claim to.
Hi Jeffrey. One of my "laugh attacks" involved an all-nighter writing an undergraduate paper, and a dumb joke about peas. I'd have been happy to let it play itself out if not for the time pressure. Laughter is certainly therapeutic, and I've often wondered about the biochemistry involved. Absurdity is a defense against insanity, for certain. 🤕
More often, my all-nighters have ended in uncontrollable weeping, which arguably also has cathartic properties. I'd like to see research on those topics, but it would be very hard to design. 😏 @@jeffreysmith236
The reason Phoenix was able to act out Pseudobulbar so well is because he actually watched RUclips videos of real people who had the condition and analyzed and studied them and basically simulated that in his acting
What was admirable was that he I such a artist that he learned it fast and accurately. And depicted in his acting. Superb actor. As soon as out of theater I called he will win an oscar. Which he did.
I heard that he locked himself in a hotel room and wrote out the jokers journal just to get into character
@@bulbouskiwicat9608 that's heath ledger
@@bulbouskiwicat9608 he did write some of the pages on Arthur's book but Heath Ledger was the one that locked himself in a hotel room to get into character
@@VictoriaTraduccionesand never really came out
About the mom, I thought it was brilliant that they lead the audience to think that she is bedridden and unable to bathe herself, and then you see her dancing with Arthur. To me, this is more than co-dependency, it's abuse. This helplessness and forced intimacy is really messed up. I think it contributes to Arthur's rage when he learns that she didn't protect him as a child. She wasn't a mom to him but she expects him to sacrifice his own life to take care of her.
One thing you could have talked about: The note behind the picture of the mom when she was young suggests that it is actually true that Thomas Wayne is the Joker's father. This adds another layer to the themes of class struggles and disenfranchisement of mentally ill people.
Minor but annoying plot hole: People living in poverty wouldn't have been able to afford a VCR in 1980. :)
I got that same feeling from the original Willy Wonka movie. Poor grandpa Jo couldn't move an inch... Until he heard his grandson won a literal fortune and of course was able to tour a giant factory on foot
Joker's mum is the bird,
"parentification" is the word,
and Arthur's the one who got hurt.
Covert inc*st can take on a lot of forms and it is clear that's what's going on here. It breeds the most painful hateful mutually destructive codependency. That was my relationship with my mother, but who would then turn around and demonize and gaslight me. I would be her caretaker at the age of 13 to then be told I never was there for her and I was unreliable. Like I was my father.
Yeah i watched the movie with my dad and he thought that the mother was like paralyzed or something and that's why Arthur had to bath her and all and was very disturbed to find out that this was not the case.
penny fleck is arthur's adoptive mother, meaning that arthur isnt a wayne or even a biological fleck
Honestly this movie made me cry multiple times..
To some it seems creepy as he ends up murdering people, but the emotions that leads him there, the trauma, the wishing for a father figure and love, it all hit me very hard.
It sounds crazy, and I would never harm anyone, but i can clearly see why he ended up doing it. Most people in the cinema saw a "delusional psychopath" because they didn't really look, honestly 3 guys sat behind us being loud, laughing and opening beer cans, until his first major breakdown, and they did not make a noise the rest of the movie, not even on their way out.
They saw something that touched them in some way and that is why this movie is my favorite, where i see a person like me who was pushed over the edge, some might see a sad story that could have been prevented, a reason why some people act out, or just a broken man.
I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and have had a lot of "intrusive thoughts" about loosing my shit and hurting people that hurt me, throughout my childhood and up, this movie was at the time a very visual play on what some of the thoughts inside my head could look like.. I do not struggle with this anymore, but the movie still hits as i can recall the feelings and emotions..
I’m a public defender who works with a lot of people struggling with horrendous trauma and other mental health issues, and I find your analysis spot on.
As someone who lives in Scotland, and has the NHS, I am reminded how grateful I am to have free healthcare. Okay, I pay higher taxes but we help each other out. I suffer from a chronic illness and there is no way I could afford all the investigations and medicines on my own. More is needed to fund mental health facilities, we do have it free on the NHS but the waiting list is so long.
Not only are waiting lists really long, they limit the number of therapy sessions you can have. Usually it's 6 - 8 or 10 if you're lucky which is just not enough. I've struggled with mental health issues for more than 20 years and it's only now that I have access to private health insurance through my work that I'm finally getting to the bottom of my issues. And it's definitely taken more than 10 sessions!! I love the NHS and the thought of it being privatised is terrifying but the mental health provisions need to change.
@@catherinelindsay7437 As a future doctor I agree who would likely work in the NHS I agree.
Totally agree with the comments on here, NHS needs vast more funding and the UK government constantly talks about doing more but I see little being physically done. We also need more staff to meet demand.
I'm so glad the NHS's severe underfunding has been brought up as well. It's because of government austerity in Britain that their healthcare is suffering at all, that being said, it's still leagues ahead of America's 'market-driven' healthcare industry.
I live in an island colonized by the U.S., we have the highest tax rates, and many of us (including me) don’t even have healthcare. I wouldn’t mind paying all these taxes if it would actually go somewhere that matters, like free healthcare, free education, food, water, etc instead of corrupt politicians’ pockets. U.S. is one of the worst places to live, and I can’t wait to get our Island’s independence back.
Fun fact: Joaquin acted while the score was being played through speakers on his scenes.
Wait what?
It definitely looks like it, the performance is just fantastic
Makes sense as the score was written for the screenplay instead of the pictures
which scene?
@@danurkresnamurti3598 At least when he's dancing in the bathroom I heard
I just love that film. Something I noticed during the first time I saw and made me surprised is - the film actually punishes EVERY TIME you feel relief or have fun. EVERY funny scene is followed by violence against Arthur, as if you are being programmed to no longer find funny stuff funny, but anxiety-inducing. Every time you laught, you feel fear - like Arthur. It's brilliant.
Through the whole movie I wanted to give Arthur a hug so badly.
Fun fact: The neighbor did live, there was a scene that was cut from the final movie where she sees Arthur's interview with Murray from her living room
Thats a great relief for me. If he killed her, that would have destroyed me
Well, the scene wasn't used for the movie, the intent was to leave the doubt so still don't know, but everyone can interpret is as they wish and I find it cool.
I personnaly think he killed her but we will never know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The director, with a straight answer for once, did say Arthur didn't kill her. To me, that makes sense because as these guys said, his neighbour didn't bully or harm him.
@@evakatrinaa I can't believe the director said that, the fact the scene was intentionally ambiguous is brillant and he just ruins it wft ? I am sorry but now the movie is made and gave to the public his words are as legitimate as any random guy on the internet.
@@evakatrinaa I see your point but Arthur Fleck is supposed to become the Joker, who dosn't give a sh*it about who he is killing or not (except Batman). So for me killing her would be the turning point : he gives up to his dream of being love and a normal life, gives up to his humanity, and become the Joker.
Plus she didn't bully her but she did rejected him. In his mind she is quite similar to Murray : puts him/her on a pedestral, fantazise about a relationship, gets rejected, and...
The whole drawing a smile with his blood, to me it meant that at that point he realized all his life was full of hurt, and in pain he managed to find (forced) happiness. I remember crying after seeing the film because I was so disturbed that I empathized with him.
I was so upset after this movie. Like disturbed and sad
As soon as he started killing people I didn’t empathize with him whatsoever ever
@@richierich2229 you can say that, but the message of the film will stay the same
@@richierich2229 then you didn't hit rock bottom by now and let's hope you never will.
Trademark of being an adult is being able to empathize with other points of view without feeling the need to fully or even partially adopt it. It's ok to feel that way.
Im glad that you guys reacted to this movie. When i watched the movie in theatres, I was triggered by it because i felt completely hopeless afterward. I actually had to walkout of the theatre during the scene of him going into the fridge because i felt such an overwhelming amount of hopelessness that i just needed to breathe for a second. Weirdly though because of this experience, i decided to go back to therapy, and even though Im not really interested in ever watching this movie again or even watching the sequel, I'm glad that I did because i seeked out therapy
When this movie came out I got bullied by my flatmate, he would call me the joker and say I was just like him, implying I was pathetic and weird. Then would make fun of my laugh or anything I did, and even worse spread this to everyone else in my uni halls which I discovered by someone else making a comment (worst part is we were supposed to be adults?). Everyone just went along with it and I felt isolated and depressed again…it reminded me of my intense bullying as a young teen and honestly spoiled the movie and character for me which I had initially liked.
Coming here a few years later has been refreshing, and I’ve actually been able to enjoy the movie again. Thanks guys for this content, I love your work :)
Allan: “I loved it, but I didn’t like it.” This line could be about relationships too…
I've been in a few of those. They're... weird.
Actually, the way I felt about this movie fits perfectly with my last relationship: "I loved it dearly and liked it a lot, but man was it toxic, one-sided, and dangerous."
As someone who has struggled my whole life with mental illness, seeing Joker was something that resonated with me deeply. I think those who make so many jokes about it are really missing what it was all about, and are lucky to not have experienced what it feels like to be hurt by everyone in your life.
trans person yes
Bpd here, and yes. One of the hardest things I still deal with in regards to my BPD is this severe isolation that comes with such intense emotions. The need for a connection that was never given as a child through emotion. I need people around me to know how I feel. They need to validate it and reflect it back to me and help guide me through it even at the age of 30. And so few people know how to do that. And it hurts. People are the most hurtful things on the planet.
@@painoftheheart12 that's exactly what I'm going through right now. BPD is horrible because I do want to be around the people I love but I have these horrible feelings nobody can understand. I get frustrated and irritable and I take it out on them. then i feel guilty and I don't want to be around anyone because I don't want to hurt them. It's this horrible, helpless cycle and I feel like I'm terribly sick, mentally, and there's no cure for it
i can tell
@Suebian It's not *every* abuse victim, no.
I'm really glad I got to experience this movie through your show. I wasn't sure when it was new and I'm still not sure now how I would do with watching the film on its own.
I get it but dude watch it it’s amazing everything they say about it is true except maybe rooting for him at the end I didn’t feel that way personally but it’s top tear u feel for him but don’t agree with him in my view the music is perfect the characters are fleshed out just a fantastic film I feel like watching it again u really should watch it there’s some violence but not as much as you would expect it’s much more about the phycology of author fleck it’s brilliant simply brilliant
I've seen it in the cinema and a bunch of teenager ruined it for me. Like it was obvious they didn't understand the message and wasn't mature enough to see it, they laughed in all the uncomfortable moments, which you can image was quite frequent in this film. By this ruining the whole rooms mood. The film was amazing and sad and uncomfortable but they really messed up my experience.
I’m also glad I could watch it this way. I have traumatic responses to some movies because of Emmy own trauma. This gave me the chance to appreciate it without it getting to me.
This film came out not too long after I myself was diagnosed with Bipolar 1, and though the Pseudobulbar stuff wasn't mentioned, that was actually what caused me to go seek diagnosis and treatment. That and the cycling.
Then this comes out, and I think "Oh yay, another Joker film, this one looks great!" Made it about 20 minutes and had to stop. Felt too real, I guess. Too fresh.
All that to say I am so BEYOND GLAD you guys covered this one.
As someone with Bipolar II, thank you so much for clarifying the difference! It can be so hard to confide in people that I have bipolar as they automatically assume that I am psychotic
Same here; with additional diagnoses that do cause me psychosis on top of hypomania, thank you guys for asking for everyone to have empathy towards people with a hard time perceiving reality and to understand how it feels to not trust your own mind and senses, constantly/desperately hoping it won’t cause others pain (emotional or worse) accidentally. Life is tough when your own brain gaslights you away from trusting what you see/hear/feel.
It is even funnier when you try to convince people the difference between ASD and BPD. Bipolar and Autism have similar symptoms that they are a blur. Would be nice if Cinema Therapy makes a video on the differences.
Agreed. I knew there was a difference but didn’t know what it was. Thanks for the distinction.
@@thejengineer7285
Even someone who struggles with relatively minor mental illness (ADD) it’s eye opening to hear what it’s like to have someone describe what their life is like to live with their own mental illness different from my own.
Same here! As someone who works with kids I'm really reluctant to disclose anything because I've been hit with the assumptions a lot.
I usually have to sit down and have the full conversation about my mental health by prefacing it with the explanation that there's more than one kind of bipolar disorder, or just talking about the depression parts and leaving it at that.
There's a theory that Arthur isn't actually talking during the majority of the therapy sessions... because her non reaction is very similar to the non reaction of crowds in hallucination scenes
As someone who has had severe depression and for years I've been suffering from the same symptoms Arthur has (those great changes in energy and mood), and some other sensations it's not easy for me to put into words, I went to see this movie alone, and more than once I've found myself silently crying, because this movie does a great job in showing some deranged states of mind that you can't control. I've noticed many people laughing a couple of times and I couldn't understand it. But I clearly saw the difference between me and them.
And I remember the time of the controversy about this movie online and how many people thought that it's about glorifying mental illness and the Joker overall, but I've seen it exactly as you guys: it's a call for kindness, shows people what's the reality of mentally sick people, and that, as Alan said " that's not the place you want to be in."
Be kind to struggling people, it's not that hard.
regarding the snobby celebrity bit at 20:51
If I remember correctly, the reason why celebrities (mainly musicians and musical performers) would ask for weird things, like only green m n' ms, or stemless strawberries, is because they'd use it to meter out whether or not the technicians did their job. If each niche stipulation of the contract couldn't be followed, then the technicians couldn't be trusted, and the musicians/ musical performers would have them do it all over again, as a safety procedure.
As someone with anxiety, depression and autism this film hit really close to home. I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks it’s an amazing movie.
That makes two of us.
Same
me too
I'm bipolar type 1 and its a hard movie to watch I thankfully have medication and therapy services available to me for free, American health care has never made sense to me so many people die because they're poor.
Yoooo, I got those things too! It's great. And by "great" I mean "exhausting".
He saw his brother die, seizing on the ground outside the club they attended, and then his frantic phone call for help was played 24/7 in the media, when he was 19 or 20?. I would say that, tragically, this helped him tap into the madness, mania and grief of the character. He also had a rough, hardscrabble life before they became actors, as the parents has them all in a cult, growing up.
I think that that trauma also had an influence in Joaquin doing the voice of Kenai in “Brother Bear”. Kenai happens to see his own oldest brother fall to his death right in front of him. There’s no way Joaquin wasn’t thinking of River when recording his lines for that scene. And that cult their family was in has ruined so many lives. When the Phoenix family were members the cult was called the Children of God, they’re still around today and they’re now called The Family International. A guy named Ricky Rodriguez was born into the cult (his birth name was David Moses Zerby and as an adult he changed it to Richard Peter Rodriguez) and he was raised as their heir and his childhood was horrific. He was hailed as the perfect child, their future leader, their prince, the perfect example of sexuality. As a literal CHILD. They even made a book about his infancy and spread 2,000 copies of it to members. Said book was later ordered to be destroyed because of how incriminating the content was. He hated it all and he never wanted to be their leader, he started questioning everything he’d been taught and he felt a need to avenge and protect his sisters and friends who had suffered the same abuse he did. Ricky left the cult when he grew up and he got married and tried to live a normal life but he couldn’t. He was so profoundly broken by what he went through that in 2005 he killed a former abuser of his and then himself. About over 30 people who were born and/or raised in the cult have died since the 1990s, mostly from suicides and drug overdoses. That really says a lot about what’s it’s like to be a child in this cult, let alone an adult member. They claim that in the 1980s they abandoned most of their sexual practices (meaning the illegal ones) but in 1993 the then-second-in-command leader, Karen Zerby, said it was just a ruse that they stopped. The following year she became the new leader after the founder David Berg’s death. Karen was Ricky’s mother and she still leads the cult to this day.
@@elsakristina2689 omg I had no idea. I got chills when reading your comment ;-;
@@egg_bun_ It’s really crazy and in the saddest way. Because Karen is the leader of the cult, her location is kept a secret even from her own followers and most of them didn’t know what she looks like until 2005. The cult was originally called Teens for Christ and was founded by David Berg in Huntington Beach in 1968, most members came out of the hippie counterculture and the Jesus People movement that itself derived from the counterculture. In 1972 they became known as the Children of God and in 1978 they faked a disbanding and changed their name to The Family of Love, and over time their name was shortened to The Family. At their peak in the 1970s they had 30,000 members in 100 countries and became infamous for their doctrine of free love, the brainwashing and abuse of members, emphasis on communal living in what they called “colonies” or “homes”, and the practice of what they called “Flirty Fishing” - prostitution done in the name of God based on Jesus’ saying that he would make his disciples “fishers of men”. They ended the practice in the 1980s out of fear of the AIDS epidemic, but by that time thousands of people had been “flirty fished” and thousands of “Jesus Babies” had been born from these encounters. Ricky himself was conceived after Karen “flirty fished” a hotel waiter during a stay in Tenerife in the Canary Islands where Ricky was later born on January 25, 1975. David Berg claimed that he was Ricky’s spiritual father although no official adoption ever took place. David Berg went by many names. To his followers he was variously known as Moses David, Mo, King David, Dad, Daddy, and Grandpa. He communicated with them primarily through “Mo Letters”, rambling letters on a multitude of spiritual and practical subjects. David wrote in total about 3,000 of these letters from 1970 until his death in 1994. The majority of the cult’s publications were in comic book format because all the members were young adults, teenagers and children. Karen joined the cult in 1969 and worked as David’s secretary. Even though he was 50 and she was 23 at the time, she became his mistress. In 1972 he introduced her to the general membership in a letter written in archaic Biblical language in which he presents Karen as the “new wine” and his wife Jane as the “old wine”. In the accompanying illustration Karen is depicted as young and beautiful while Jane is drawn as an old hag. Karen is variously known among her followers as Maria, Mama Maria, Queen Maria, Mama, Maria Berg, Maria David, and Maria Fontaine. In 1995 a British justice (Alan Ward) authored a lengthy report on the Family’s history, abuse and practices when he was put in charge of a custody case involving a British woman who was in the cult and had had a baby. He acknowledged that The Family had committed sexual and physical abuse and sequestration of children, but at the last minute he concluded that since they abandoned those practices in the 1980s the Family was now a safe environment for children. In 2010 the Family reorganised themselves as an exclusively online community and the majority of their activity is supposedly humanitarian and missionary work in poor countries and they have A LOT of front organisations connected with the cult. A lot of the people in leadership and other abusers have never been caught or charged because since they were young adults in the 70s and 80s they’re elderly or approaching elderly now, the abuse they committed happened decades ago in foreign countries (households would regularly move to a new country every six months) and a lot of these abusers have their locations kept secret and/or they’ve changed their names and countries of residence often MULTIPLE TIMES.
Bingo.
Wait what are you guys talking about? Is the original comment talking about the actor? Say that in the beginning of your paragraph
Honestly I found the movie to be horrifyingly relatable. The fact that this Joker was able to inspire enough people in Gotham to riot and do these acts of Violence it really plays to the fact that at a drop of a hat and under duress we will pick violence and destruction in order to express our unhappiness. Look at the real world and its terrifying that it was so spot on.
One of the things I noticed is that it felt like the writers were trying to foreshadow Harley with the neighbor. Arthur’s fantasies about her were all based on validation. “Oh you were stalking me but I was actually hoping you’d come say hi” “you’re really funny” “yeah I’d love to watch you perform” and that’s just from the one scene.
It’s all based on validation, and he knows absolutely nothing about her. He doesn’t actually love HER, he loves the idea of her.
That’s what Harley did.
Harley supported his every move. Harley was the only one who made an attempt to understand him. Harley WORSHIPPED him. We often see how toxic and abusive the Joker is on her end, and that makes sense, of course we would, she is the victim.
But it’s FASCINATING to think about WHY is Joker was abusive towards her. He didn’t like her. He didn’t like her at all. Any time she ever tried to have her own personality, or he didn’t need her validation, he’d get really tired of her.
But because she’s the only one to ever support him, he can’t let her go. Ever. That’s why he kept her around as long as he did.
Joker couldn’t stand the idea that Harley didn’t need him because he needed her.
She was his unconditional support
She worshiped him
She validated him
He wasn’t obsessed with her the way she was obsessed with him
But he was obsessed with how she made him feel
She made him feel better about himself in a sick twisted way.
And that’s absolutely bone chilling.
(Harley is a personal favorite of mine, and the idea that the writers tried to foreshadow her existence even without her appearance in the movie made me so happy)
Didn't mention at all that his psychosis went off the rails when he lost access to his meds. Going by this movie, he needs meds just as desperately as a father figure. Needed to come back and underscore how (public) access to mental health is vital for justice and compassion. He was a powder keg but we took away his meds.
Spot on!!! I think people skip over that fact too easily. The fact they diagnose him as bipolar entering a full blown manic...well yeah if you believe you are godlike and running at the speed of light its easy to tip into agression/violence and feel no remorse. Your moral compass has gone out the window coz ur in the midst of a mental illness. Arthur goes Manic isn't the catchiest title but that seems to be the plot rather than the emergence of a villain.
I think they didn't mention it because they don't know exactly what medication he was on. Suddenly stopping your anti-depressants has a drastically different impact then stopping your anti-psychotics... They can't apply that info into the analysis because they don't have enough info. In the 80's it was common for patients to be prescribed placebos instead of actual medication, for all we know that could be the case with Arthur too.
The system fails another yet again
I'm schizophrenic, I've been on over 10 antidepressants and 4 or 5 antipsychotics, they don't help. They are poison. When I quit them I felt better. Sure the voices are louder but they finally make sense.
@@informitas0117 I hope you're doing alright mate. Schizophrenia is a tough gig. I have chronic depression and CPTSD and that's hard enough.
How I interpret the bloody smile Arthur drew on his face in the end, was that even though he found happiness for once in his life, how he got there was by inciting riots and murdering people who stressed him out, regardless of if it was intentional or not. That happiness was forged in blood.
That's an awesome observation!
I interpreted it the same way. His path to happiness is through violence
That's a really cool theory
@@corahonken164 It is bloody murder not a theory
Ooo good one 💕
I loved Joker and related so much to it. Obviously, not to the T but his time with the social worker hit me incredibly hard. Especially since I watched the movie after the time I had applied for mental health services and after months of back and forth about getting more than just medications and feeling like the psychiatrist was barely listening to me, they eventually told me I didn't qualify for further services
.
.
because I could maintain a job.
A job where I made less than $10/hr and worked part time. Didn't seem to matter that it was me with my child and that job barely covered anything. That my mental health issues did, in fact, prevent me from getting anything better or even getting promoted. It was a good job in the sense that the GM was incredibly kind and understanding but it was not a sustainable job! I don't know where I'd be if my ex husband hadn't paid my rent for that time to keep me afloat.
Even when a family member helped me get a better paying job, I had trouble maintaining it and I still didn't make enough to pay for therapy. I eventually had a breakdown. And once I felt another coming along just a few months later, I quit because I got written up the last time I left to check myself to a mental hospital. And I was on medication through all of this! But I still didn't qualify for more help. At least, nothing I could realistically afford.
I felt myself getting more and more sick. Physically. Mentally. It felt like I was screaming for help but no one was listening. Just told that I could handle it. That i just needed to try harder. To not think about it. I started feeling desperate, almost ravenous. "What do i have to do?" "How do I show them?" "How do I prove it?" "How severe do they want me??" I did start feeling angry, vengeful, and abandoned. My clarity started going. I wasn't even sure who "them" was anymore. I was just convinced "they" were against me and people like me. The ones not "severe" enough.
It really did take a few kind people to pull me out of that mental state. And, yes, my own will. I'm doing better now. But still feel so let down. And I still have a lot of work ahead of me. And it's still hard. I don't know when I'll be well enough to work again. I don't know if I'll ever have a sustainable job. I've never had one.
So when I watched Joker, I felt it. I really, deeply felt it. That agony. That rage. The hilarity of it all. Sometimes all you can do is laugh.
"I loved it but I didn't like it"
excellent way to put it
I think it's more a call for kindness and compassion for people who have serious problems. A lot of those are mentally ill, but not all of them. This is a story about a man who is driven to despair which is correlated with but doesn't require mental illness.
Everyone should have helped Arthur. Including Arthur.
I adore this movie. It's painfully uncomfortable to watch, it feels almost as if you're following a real man without his knowledge to me. First time I saw it, I walked home through the city and felt DEAD. The feeling didn't leave me for weeks, it was very impactful for me.
I remember the first time I saw this film was on an airplane flight. There are many elements of this film that I find disturbing. But I think this film is brilliant. I personally like that it gives empathy for people who are mentally ill, people marginalized in other ways, and people in poverty.
Growing up, I frequently watched Batman the Animated Series. I enjoyed watching the mysteries being solved. And in my young adult years, I enjoyed a few other iterations of Batman both onscreen and as graphic novels. One of the many examples being the Christopher Nolan Batman Trilogy.
I think something else that’s brilliant about the film Joker, besides it being a completely different origin story on film than we’ve seen for Jokers in the past, is in many ways it is a standalone story. So, I have seen and heard many opinions and takes on the film both from Batman fans of many years and from Batman newbies. It was fun.
Not sure what direction they are going to go in for the sequel.
I love the direction you guys went with this episode and look forward to seeing more like it!
I love the analysis and discussions of Cinema Therapy, but I have to admit, my favorite moments are when Jonathan and Alan just go full on college roommate-mode, grab a joke and run with it.
"You do get a trailer, and people bring you nuts whenever you want them"
"Remove these from my presence, they aren't salty enough"
"Seriously, cashews"
Cracked me up
Oh my god, that joke was amazing.
If we go to the doctor every year to get a check up on our physical health-even though we’re healthy-just to make sure, then we should do that with our mental and emotional health as well
The problem is a lot of people don't have access to healthcare. Even if you qualify for assistance, getting it is another story. If you do have access to healthcare however, I agree! Women are already used to going to at least 2 doctors a year and many people go to dentists. Going to a therapist is just like going to those other drs. Physical therapy as a preventive once a year ( helping you with occupational hazards) would also be a good idea for comprehensive care.
@@stefs3460 this too!! Our health care system needs some major tweaks, and this is definitely one of them
@@chillinvillain7800 Yes this is a case of to save a dollar they spend 3. Preventative care by once a year check ups, screenings, dentist visit, psychotherapy prevent much more expensive problems later! It's like householder and cars, if you maintain them and fix small problems you avoid much more expensive problems later or possibly losing the entire structure or vehicle. With a house or car this is a waste of money because you have to buy s replacement. There's no replacement if you waste a person 😢
Don't forget even *now* a *ton* of insurance companies consider mental ailments analogous to "cosmetic surgery" aka will *barely* cover it, if at all. Because it _seemingly_ "does not affect the patient's ability to work" .... Until, of course, it does.
Theory and praxis. It's a lot of hassle to actually do that, takes time, and because it is quantity-over-quality, you get only those checks that are most likely to miss the things that would be most important to know, and even worse, can create a false sense of certainty when you are crudely checked for something and given a green light even though a more thorough test might give a red light.
The physical health care sector is just as much in managed, suppressed, painted-over crisis as the mental health care system. It is systemic, so the same thing expresses itself in many ways.
I have two GPs that I cannot stand, no option of going to another one, and my GP is now a RUclips channel. The RUclips doctor helped me in many ways while I cannot remember my GPs ever actually having helped me, but they did bad stuff.
The sky is falling and people are still cheering like it's some exciting Hollywood blockbuster.
I recently found this channel and I absolutely love it. Psychology and movie being two things I’m so interested in. I hope you guys talk about Davy Jones or Doctor Octopus some day. They’re both villains with such sad past’s. I think they’re really interesting!!
Watching this ep again kind of helps me figure out stuff, so thanks again
I would love to see you guys do a episode on maladaptive daydreaming. Its a under researched mental condition that desperately needs more attention brought to it.
We actually have one that deals with that topic coming soon!
@@CinemaTherapyShow AHHHHHHH THANK YOU. As someone who has it, it makes me so glad to see you guys doing this. Again, thank you!
YES I was just about to comment this! Another under researched one is Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria.
Pretty sure I have both RSD and Maladaptive Daydreaming, seeing how my everyday life plays out with ADD. Just wish there was enough to be able to officially diagnose people with it so that many can gain some closure.
I remember during the premiere of the Elf video you guys responded to me in the chat saying you’re planning something to cover RSD, can’t wait for it! But I’m being patient~ 😁
Oh gosh darnit, well I guess there is a thing I’ve got that isn’t schizophrenia. Thank you for bringing this term to my attention.
@@bookbook9495 not a problem. And trust me. I was just like you in not knowing what it was called. Blew my mind afterwards.
“It gets you to empathize with someone who is a villain, and that’s not something we generally like to do”
People whose favorite characters are Loki and Anakin Skywalker and Prince Zuko (aka me): 😬 yeah...I’d never wanna do that
Loki redeems himself, Anakin dies and becomes Darth Vader, Zuko grows old, wise and peaceful. The Joker... that´s kind of a different story i´d say.
You can be interested in villainous characters and even feel sorry for the more sympathetic ones as long as you know that what happened to them doesn't excuse what they do and their actions are unjustified.
I sympathized with Amy in Gone Girl and Joker
@@DerAykac still, we can sympathize with why he's locked up in a mental asylum... and are able to see how it could have been avoided.
@@Xehanort10 One thing I noticed from people's reactions to the movie was how so many kept saying that Arthur was wrong for becoming homicidal and that the film was trying to justify and excuse that descent into homicide. But I believe they missed the point. A large part of the current mindset is that "everyone has excuse, I have reasons." They blame others for their actions without concern for context, but they know themselves and their own reasons for their own actions. A major part of Arthur's descent is that everyone that was mean/cruel to him viewed themselves as just one moment and not enough to do anything. But they aren't seeing all the others that are also pushing him down. And then that one tiny snowflake is too much and causes the avalanche. Sure, Arthur is responsible for his own actions, but everyone else is also responsible for their actions against him that helped lead him to making those choices. Just like we need to be more aware of how our small actions can have a greater impact on the lives of others.
When I went to see this movie I remember just feeling so sad the whole time, like the same empty and soggy feeling you have during depressive episodes. It was a beautifully crafted film and was a great insight to a mentally ill mind (coming from a fellow mentally ill person)