I was taught as an orthodox Mormon youth in the liberal Seattle area in the 1990s that black people were fence sitters in the war in heaven. The horrific racism didn't end in 1978.
I don't think we can fairly say it ended in 1978. The doctrine continued right up until the essays came out. In addition the scriptures still contain horrific racist doctrines and the church has never apologized for its past. ALL they (Oaks ) has done has solidified the "Blame it on god" stance at the "BE ONE" celebration.
I'm 54 and I was taught the same and I remember also being told if you date a black guy you are a slut.i grew up in Utah and Idaho and I remember always thinking how insanely dumb the whole curse of Cain thing was and all that went with it. I never bought into it.
I was taught in Sunday school in 1997 or 98 about the curse of Cain. Thankfully my Dad refuted it some time later. But I still wasn't given a plausible explanation for the ban. Sadly it took me quite a few years of wrestling with past teachings of top leaders and bad apologetics to conclude the ban was not in any sense inspired by God.
Dr Harris said in 1969, the church told members to tell people that no one knows why the race ban exists. My mom was 18 in 1969. I was born in 1977. In 1985, only 7 years after the ban was lifted (to an 8 year old kid like me it was an eternity) one of my school friends, who was Black, asked me why I belonged to a church that didn’t want black people in it. I had no idea what he was talking about. So I asked my mom. She regurgitated that 1969 counsel at me, knowing fully that she knew why the ban existed. The Mormon church turned my mom into a person who would lie to her kids. I bought that story for at least 20 years, trying on my own to understand why God may have needed there to be a ban. To me, it doesn’t matter that the church may do some good in the world, because to me, they’re the organization that encouraged a mother to lie to her son in order to bind him to a racist organization. There is absolutely nothing of good report or praiseworthy in that.
I grew up in the Palo Alto first ward in the sixties. My parents were Dialogue Magazine readers. This whole discussion helps me understand my parents better. Thank you.
I love podcasts like this one, because they confirm that morally I am doing better without Mormonism (i.e. my decision to leave Mormonism was the right decision made for the right reasons).
There aren’t too many “wrong” reasons to leave such an organization. Unless you are becoming more extreme, like FLDS, your reason for leaving was good enough.
Congratulations I feel good about it now 30 years later. I joined the rest of humanity. If God didn't like one race or another then why is He/ She creating them continuously?
Definitely very excited for this one. The 60's is one my favorite times in history period to learn about, and the Mormon experience through the prisms of race in the 60's will surely be a story I'm sure!
I’m staggered that the church from the time of BY policies regarding the blacks and the priesthood. Went decades with various Prophets denying the blacks the priesthood. Why didn’t God step in because these prophets were leading the flock astray.
I was in UTAH USA in the 60s and was taught that blacks followed satan in the war in heaven. I watched my sister get beaten for dating "a black man" I still have the print outs from our mormon area leaders on this subject. It is also referenced in 2nd Nephi. My sister married that man :) 2 of my kids are LGB T! and none of us are members anymore!
LOL J. Edna Hoover. Master of Deceit. Your mention of Mississippi and the dogs attacking children brought back nightmares I had as a child. All the hatred was terrifying. Real life behavior of members didn’t match what I was learning in church. Even pre baptism, Elder Brown was our hero.
Ex-Mormon today, raised orthodox Mormon from Cedar City. My father kept his racism hidden until my teenage years in the 1980’s. Dad’s politics were in alignment with Birch society but was not a member to my knowledge. He passed away at an early age so this episode (and this isn’t the only one) has helped me understand him. He and I would not agree politically or religiously today as I am liberal in my politics and have not darkened the doors of LDS since my teen years. Thank you for this dark yet fantastic telling of history.
There is no way that that apostle suddenly became a bigot. He was a bigot before he became an apostle so why was he made an apostle. Racism and bigotry is an unChristian as it gets
I love the intellectual honesty from this gentleman. It’s absolutely refreshing to see him acknowledge truths and be okay with the history of the church being whack. I don’t believe running from the truth is helpful even if it doesn’t uphold our personal biases. At the very least it makes the argument that “men are infallible and the prophets of the church made bad choices and poor decisions too,” at least more palatable than “that never happened you’re straw-manning/lying/rumor-milling/etc.” Bravo!
I came across the three cassettes of talks by HBB. I love him! I got them on my mission in 1973. And I have mentioned here before he was my mom’s MP in England until Hitler sent everyone home…
An 18 year old in 1967, seminary, Sunday School, Sacrament meetings for years, testimony, the works. Walked away and never looked back due to blatant racism throughout the older 21 and up, members. Talks at meetings, the crap about Cain. And then of course the ridiculous word-of-wisdom. You know the idea that God is going to be pissed at you for drinking coffee or having a beer with your buddies. And in addition to the problems with the civil rights movement the way the church treated the Vietnam War and all the related upheaval. For me, these ridiculous ideas were enough for me to walk away from the church and never look back and never regret it. BTW I lived in Michigan while George Romney was governor. He was a good one, the church would have done well to make him the Profit, I’m sure church bosses could have arranged for a vision telling them to do so.
I had to catch this episode late so couldn't mention this in the live chat. The first home I purchased in 1991 was in the Poplar Grove area of Salt Lake and the stake was the Pioneer Stake that Monson grew up in.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
Will BYU face such backlash with the recent Trans policy? That is my question. I really think the church is in for a major period of bad PR because of their decisions and actions.
It is so insidious to have leaders claim to be speaking for God. When I converted, I dramatically and completely changed my political and social beliefs to conform to LDS beliefs, and that includes these Ezra Taft Benson books and talks. As outrageous as it sounds now, if this is what an apostle is warning the saints about, we took it as coming from God Himself.
Do you know the quote by Churchill “The longer you can look back the further you can look forward.” All the issues with gender, sexual orientation and trans in the church is dealing with today will be as unbelievably prejudicial and discriminatory as the civil rights the former leaders fought so hard to maintain in the Mormon church.
I love Matt Harris's work! Can anyone recommend a good book on the John Birch Society's impact beyond Mormonism? I saw that two are available on Audible, one by DJ Mulloy and another by Matthew Dallek
Doesn’t it seem ironic to invoke Joseph Smith in an argument for state rights and the rights of private citizens to exclude and discriminate against an ethnic group when Joseph Smith argued for an interpretation of the Bill of Rights which have the federal government an enforcement mandate over the prerogatives of states and individuals?
I think it's important to recall that Romney was all or in part responsible for developing in home teaching curriculum. I don't think we can give him a pass on racism. I'm just a few minutes into the episode so I don't know if it will come up later.
To say king opposed communism is to ignore the fact that king openly supported socialist ideals. John says MLK jr wasn’t a communist over and over but he and this guest are simply wrong. I get that you two grew up in the society king lived in where “communist” was seen as a bad thing but it’s not a bad thing. I think I’ve heard John even pointing out his kids point this out that capitalism of far from good, that it’s an abusive system. MLK jr constantly push socialism, as did Christ and the early Christian church.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
I was taught as an orthodox Mormon youth in the liberal Seattle area in the 1990s that black people were fence sitters in the war in heaven. The horrific racism didn't end in 1978.
I don't think we can fairly say it ended in 1978. The doctrine continued right up until the essays came out. In addition the scriptures still contain horrific racist doctrines and the church has never apologized for its past. ALL they (Oaks ) has done has solidified the "Blame it on god" stance at the "BE ONE" celebration.
I'm 54 and I was taught the same and I remember also being told if you date a black guy you are a slut.i grew up in Utah and Idaho and I remember always thinking how insanely dumb the whole curse of Cain thing was and all that went with it. I never bought into it.
I was in the temple 1978. The temple President said that it was the prayers of the dead black ancestors who influenced the change.
I was taught in Sunday school in 1997 or 98 about the curse of Cain. Thankfully my Dad refuted it some time later.
But I still wasn't given a plausible explanation for the ban. Sadly it took me quite a few years of wrestling with past teachings of top leaders and bad apologetics to conclude the ban was not in any sense inspired by God.
Was taught & told the same thing!
Dr Harris said in 1969, the church told members to tell people that no one knows why the race ban exists. My mom was 18 in 1969. I was born in 1977. In 1985, only 7 years after the ban was lifted (to an 8 year old kid like me it was an eternity) one of my school friends, who was Black, asked me why I belonged to a church that didn’t want black people in it. I had no idea what he was talking about. So I asked my mom. She regurgitated that 1969 counsel at me, knowing fully that she knew why the ban existed. The Mormon church turned my mom into a person who would lie to her kids. I bought that story for at least 20 years, trying on my own to understand why God may have needed there to be a ban.
To me, it doesn’t matter that the church may do some good in the world, because to me, they’re the organization that encouraged a mother to lie to her son in order to bind him to a racist organization. There is absolutely nothing of good report or praiseworthy in that.
I grew up in the Palo Alto first ward in the sixties. My parents were Dialogue Magazine readers. This whole discussion helps me understand my parents better. Thank you.
Matt is such a great commentator. I could listen to him all day.
I love podcasts like this one, because they confirm that morally I am doing better without Mormonism (i.e. my decision to leave Mormonism was the right decision made for the right reasons).
Most feel the same, I believe 😊
There aren’t too many “wrong” reasons to leave such an organization. Unless you are becoming more extreme, like FLDS, your reason for leaving was good enough.
@@function0077 now you can tell LDS to Choose The Right and quit that cult.
And this is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH!, I am quiting.
About time you woke up !
Congratulations I feel good about it now 30 years later. I joined the rest of humanity. If God didn't like one race or another then why is He/ She creating them continuously?
Definitely very excited for this one. The 60's is one my favorite times in history period to learn about, and the Mormon experience through the prisms of race in the 60's will surely be a story I'm sure!
I’m staggered that the church from the time of BY policies regarding the blacks and the priesthood. Went decades with various Prophets denying the blacks the priesthood. Why didn’t God step in because these prophets were leading the flock astray.
@@user-oj1me3vo5l king of kolob is racist and statically dynamic 🤣
As a non-Mormon I've found this series fascinating. Matt Harris is an excellent storyteller.
ITS MATT HARRIS MONDAY LETS ROCK
This history should be taught in every school! Thank you so much!
I was in UTAH USA in the 60s and was taught that blacks followed satan in the war in heaven. I watched my sister get beaten for dating "a black man" I still have the print outs from our mormon area leaders on this subject. It is also referenced in 2nd Nephi. My sister married that man :) 2 of my kids are LGB T! and none of us are members anymore!
Had no clue I would be so fascinated by this history...non morman here. I am loving this. Long time listener....
Me too!
Woohoo here we go with another incredibly interesting and pertinent discussion, thank you to the whole team!
Glad you enjoyed it!
LOL J. Edna Hoover. Master of Deceit. Your mention of Mississippi and the dogs attacking children brought back nightmares I had as a child. All the hatred was terrifying. Real life behavior of members didn’t match what I was learning in church. Even pre baptism, Elder Brown was our hero.
Ex-Mormon today, raised orthodox Mormon from Cedar City.
My father kept his racism hidden until my teenage years in the 1980’s. Dad’s politics were in alignment with Birch society but was not a member to my knowledge. He passed away at an early age so this episode (and this isn’t the only one) has helped me understand him. He and I would not agree politically or religiously today as I am liberal in my politics and have not darkened the doors of LDS since my teen years. Thank you for this dark yet fantastic telling of history.
There is no way that that apostle suddenly became a bigot. He was a bigot before he became an apostle so why was he made an apostle.
Racism and bigotry is an unChristian as it gets
Thank you Matt, Dr. Dehlin, Gerardo, Maven, and everyone who brought us this information!
I love the intellectual honesty from this gentleman. It’s absolutely refreshing to see him acknowledge truths and be okay with the history of the church being whack. I don’t believe running from the truth is helpful even if it doesn’t uphold our personal biases. At the very least it makes the argument that “men are infallible and the prophets of the church made bad choices and poor decisions too,” at least more palatable than “that never happened you’re straw-manning/lying/rumor-milling/etc.”
Bravo!
So interesting! Thanks for doing this series!
Oh man, my TBA family needs this episode, but they’d never watch this channel.
TBA?
@@maam-yj8ph TBM
What a remarkable conversation. Thanks for this.
Maybe he needs to do a series of books like the Saints series, only for the Black Saints
Thanks John and Matt for teaching us the Gospel :)
I came across the three cassettes of talks by HBB. I love him! I got them on my mission in 1973. And I have mentioned here before he was my mom’s MP in England until Hitler sent everyone home…
An 18 year old in 1967, seminary, Sunday School, Sacrament meetings for years, testimony, the works. Walked away and never looked back due to blatant racism throughout the older 21 and up, members. Talks at meetings, the crap about Cain. And then of course the ridiculous word-of-wisdom. You know the idea that God is going to be pissed at you for drinking coffee or having a beer with your buddies. And in addition to the problems with the civil rights movement the way the church treated the Vietnam War and all the related upheaval. For me, these ridiculous ideas were enough for me to walk away from the church and never look back and never regret it. BTW I lived in Michigan while George Romney was governor. He was a good one, the church would have done well to make him the Profit, I’m sure church bosses could have arranged for a vision telling them to do so.
when will this be on audible?
Do "good old Mormon principles" with the auto worker strike mean Mountain Meadows or honest and open negotiation?
I had to catch this episode late so couldn't mention this in the live chat. The first home I purchased in 1991 was in the Poplar Grove area of Salt Lake and the stake was the Pioneer Stake that Monson grew up in.
I live in Michigan and I’m 65 years old. The first governor that I remember was George Romney.
Ya gotta love Mormon Stories Podcasts. 2hrs 51mins. Yikes! It doesn't get any better than this.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
Will BYU face such backlash with the recent Trans policy? That is my question. I really think the church is in for a major period of bad PR because of their decisions and actions.
Thank you. Very very well said❤️
The statically dynamic king of kolob and his racist profits 😂
1:00:52 I’m in Holladay and I’m pleased to say there are four black families in our neighborhood 😊 Great episode as always!
These episodes are great! Thank you!
Interracial marriage was discouraged in the Young Men / Young Women pamphlets For the Strength of Youth. It was removed in the early 2000.
It is so insidious to have leaders claim to be speaking for God. When I converted, I dramatically and completely changed my political and social beliefs to conform to LDS beliefs, and that includes these Ezra Taft Benson books and talks. As outrageous as it sounds now, if this is what an apostle is warning the saints about, we took it as coming from God Himself.
Do you know the quote by Churchill “The longer you can look back the further you can look forward.” All the issues with gender, sexual orientation and trans in the church is dealing with today will be as unbelievably prejudicial and discriminatory as the civil rights the former leaders fought so hard to maintain in the Mormon church.
The Mormons just bought 52,000 acres in Orlando fl
@@judybyington822 Them, the scientologists, and Jeff E's buddy little Willie Gates 🤣
Hm. So should we be watching for a Mormon Temple Theme Park soon?
@@nickiebray the buying and building is just common money laundering. They know their time is up.
W Cleon Skousen was the Police Chief of Salt Lake City until he got fired.
Are there any family members of current GA's in an interracial marriage?
Matt really does a great job with this topic. He helped me see antiracists in a much more sympathetic light.
I love Matt Harris's work!
Can anyone recommend a good book on the John Birch Society's impact beyond Mormonism?
I saw that two are available on Audible, one by DJ Mulloy and another by Matthew Dallek
The Dallek one is very good
I have wondered what a mormon U.S. presidency would look like.
It would look like a total shithole.
Thanks!
Doesn’t it seem ironic to invoke Joseph Smith in an argument for state rights and the rights of private citizens to exclude and discriminate against an ethnic group when Joseph Smith argued for an interpretation of the Bill of Rights which have the federal government an enforcement mandate over the prerogatives of states and individuals?
I think it's important to recall that Romney was all or in part responsible for developing in home teaching curriculum. I don't think we can give him a pass on racism. I'm just a few minutes into the episode so I don't know if it will come up later.
So excellent!!!
Glad you think so!
1:24:00 when the Mormon people get paranoid they hire a sniper or wear bulletproof vests over their clothing. 😆
If Soc Sec didn’t have me overdrawn every month, you are so important to me and many more--I would send $. I promise. House city taxes coming up.
I am jewish. and what you are claim here is that if i have a flag shop , and someone wants a hamas flag, so i must provide ? After october 7 ?
How was Goldwater an extremist?
I was there in the 60’s, gays are not singled out, businesses have a right to refuse them services.
The guy answered my question when he said he was a Liberal 🤪
🙏🏼🙌🏼🤟🏼💪🏼😮💨
To say king opposed communism is to ignore the fact that king openly supported socialist ideals. John says MLK jr wasn’t a communist over and over but he and this guest are simply wrong. I get that you two grew up in the society king lived in where “communist” was seen as a bad thing but it’s not a bad thing. I think I’ve heard John even pointing out his kids point this out that capitalism of far from good, that it’s an abusive system. MLK jr constantly push socialism, as did Christ and the early Christian church.
This man seems to also be ignoring the fact that Christian socialism was prevalent in the 1800s and into the 1900s.
@@danielclingen34 LDS basically is selling communism mixed with ET scifi Christianity .
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
Thanks!
You bet!
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.
In the eighties I went to work at Motorola. The Mormon HR manager offerred me a job at $5.45 an hour less than what white Mormon women were offerred. Later I was termed because the same Mormon manager stated that because I was a single parent Mormon males at work were going to expect sex from me. Several women in my department complained of being sexually harassed by Mormon men while working. In all cases the women (always mi ority women), were termed and the men stayed and promoted.