@@Itachi_gt3rs whaddya mean which video? That's every other time he flames someone for sharing a dumb opinion in chat KEKW at least the sentiment if not the quote verbatim
Yep. Shame Aris stopped playing cuz of how toxic the community is for a game he loves. I learned a lot just from watching him. I still watch top players but I mixed it up watching my own gameplay. That’ll take you to the next level.
@@Mr440c Yeah, Aris' guides were the shit man. He was like a genius at work, he explained the basics of fighting game in such a unique manner - like finding pair of moves that complement each other and many more. I miss those guides.
If Tokido went to it that’s all you need to know. He’s known for going for any & every advantage in fighting games. He’s not dropping years of stick play for a Hitbox for no reason.
This is 100% on the devs IMHO. 4 frame super (although the input requires preparation and is incredibly awkward) in street fighter is only possible due to input leniency. In older street fighters this is completely impossible since diagonals are required. For the tekken specific examples like sidestep that could be patched in either direction. The charge character thing is bullcrap tho, that doesn't work like that.
yeah, last input does allow for frame perfect return from forward to back and sf6 guile's new "perfect boom" will unfortunately be incredibly easy to do as well since you can use the same hand for both buttons, but I think neutral socd cleaning is already good enough at mitigating the game breaking aspects of cardinal direction buttons if not for the weird input leniency that is unique to every game that may allow it to do dubious and funky stuff.
The irony about input leniency, though, is that it seems designed to mitigate the difficulty of precise command inputs on stick/pad. Now that hitboxes do away with the precision hurdle, they can even further exploit the game's adaptation for its inherent difficulty.
@@crystalnite I don't know about that. It's easy to miss diagonals in quarter circles or especially half circles (or even the down input) on leverless, but i never miss them on pad or stick. The crossup is a different story, where you get the advantages of both, and the downsides of neither i guess
That's not the issue in the first place either. But, shit like Ivy's SS or CS command grabs in Soul Calibur I would say are easier to do on stick/pad than hitbox.
FYI, you can totally use socd match practically on dualshock and dualsense. Place all the buttons on the triggers and bumpers, then you have both hands to use for the pad and left stick. I've played with it, it's definitely a step up on normal pad movement
in 2d games you can already use your right hand on the left stick to trigger socd for "frame perfect" sonic booms. there area already pad players who play like this.
Technically a playstation controller can press 2 directions at the same time as well. Both SFV and T7 allow the usage of DPAD and Analog at the same time so you can still cancel directions without letting go of the first one.
SOCD Cleaner exists to eliminate inputs that are impossible. You can't input opposite directions in a hitbox. The game registers neutral or up. There is only an advantage just for travel time and socd inputs having a way to push neutral at will. There are no illegal inputs
@@greatbigeyeball and either way, the game should be accounting for these situations with its own input cleaning. If the controller can send inputs that break the game, the devs need to reconsider their input processing to account for it. It should be treated like any other exploit.
@@deciett Yes. This is the correct take. I am a developer myself and in my honest opinion the rise of new controllers have simply made people aware of the shortcomings FGs have in their inner-workings. These developers are notoriously behind the times and technology (10+ years and we still can't guarantee working online). They just got lazy because the niche of players were willing to self police. No other genre would try to tell people what controller someone decides to use when they could just fix it at the engine level.
"The game registers neutral or up" Yes, that is the advantage as TMM explains when he talks about being able to sidestep after Kaz/Hei f+4. Also most SOCDs are either set to register either the first or the last input last which has it's own problems entirely. Just because your hitbox has a SOCD does not mean it fixes all the inherent problems with hitboxes.
Having 'neutral' as an actual input isnt currently illegal, but it is something that sticks & (arguably) pad cannot do at all. Its not a macro, but its not something to overlook.
I mean in the 90s and early 2000s pads were considered cheating too (especially by the "elite" arcade cabins players). You couldn't even use binds in some local tournaments and that's why some legacy Tekken players learned the claw grip on pad. Nowadays button binds on controllers are considered perfectly fine by pretty much everyone in the fgc. At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller. Also, game developers are slowly dropping more complicated legacy motion inputs for the sake of being more accessible for casual players so one day this hitbox double input cheat argument will become irrelevant anyway.
Motion input are a key design in fighting games, removing them will not allow you to do 6 attack buttons with command normals it will result in an entirely different game system and honestly it's not impressive nor more fun that's why a game like Street Fighter can't remove them and they are still in SF6, like imagine an invincible 3f reversal move without motion input will be just broken and removing it will not be the same. The thing that devs are doing is just making games easy like GG Strive in this game some combos and hit confirms are so easy you can just call it auto combo despite having motion inputs but they are so lenient and easy that you can't say it's hard game for new players even with motion inputs in it on the contrary, but regardless hitbox will always have an advantage and as top SF japan players are using Hitbox more and more it will becomes more common.
You don't understand anything from this video... "At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller" - dude no. You can be "the better player" but if your opponent is playing on controler which literally can do things which others can't - you will lose. That's the argument. It's impossible to win despite having better execution or legacy skill. It's physically impossible to win. The only way to gauge which player is better is to use same controllers.
@@Nobbi_Habogs The devs can't do that since like Aris said the Hitbox will do it's cleaning itself so what that means if you are holding back and then press forward without letting go of back the Hitbox will therefore immediately send only the forward input, so this hole problem with hitboxes can't be solved by the devs this way. It's not a problem on the software level but on the hardware level since in a Hitbox you are free to tweak your SOCD cleaner to last input win or first input when you press two buttons at the same time.
HitBox was the entire reason I actually got into fighting games. I could never get clean L/R on an arcade stick, & the d-pad & trigger buttons were problems on a pad. Aside from a recent ESD death to my SnackBox, I've loved SF6 constantly since release. It DID take like 4 months to get used to the leverless layout though.
I main Zafina and I play on keyboard... I realized over 20 years ago keyboard was best for fighting games and it took a LONG time to feel most comfortable on one. I KBD by holding back (constant), tapping forward, neutral, down, neutral, forward, neutral down... sometimes you gotta hit that first forward twice to get it going. I barely bother blocking. It's really THAT simple.
Agree, keyboard is amazing, it's quite complicated to do stuff like Geese's Raging Storm but for KBD and other stuff it's really easy I just hold back, double hit F and have a good timing of D,F,D,F,D,F,D,F, same with waves I'd like to try a hitbox tho, it's like a keyboard but looks way more comfortable, and the family won't try to murder me for playing
I play on keyboard too but I have to admit that it basically breaks fighting games. The whole point of movement, defending, and specials in fighting games is commitment. Even though hit box has an SOCD cleaner built in and emulators have them built in too, it doesn’t stop games from allowing a down charge and then pressing up to do like a flash kick in SFV without having to release down. That’s how the crossup arcade stick works too. If people want to use whatever controller they want online and at home, then that’s their business but I do believe there should be a tournament standard at offline events. Even without the SOCD cleaner, you always have an additional finger that is read to press ANY direction that’s macro’d to a key/button. I mean, there really isn’t an argument to be made. The issue is also with the developers who allow a gamer to use dpad and analog stick at the same with the gamepads. I can even see issues with dpads being used too.
One guy said said it perfectly on Aris' channel, "I wonder if this is what Amish guys in the 1920s felt like when they watched cars go speeding by" lol, this sums up the entire thing so well, the fgc is evolving, there is no cohesive argument to ban hitbox when keyboards have been around since the dawn of time, it could also be argued that pad should be banned at that point, and everyone can play either one, I guess Devilster should have to use stick right lol? Nothing but gate keeping elitism that will hold the community back
In the matter of "having fun", yes can do whatever box you want to play. A fair advantage should be given to each contender in a tournament play. Might as well recommend them HITBOX/MIXBOX as an ideal preferences. Stick been around as an old school feel controller. I haven't tried stick controller so i would want to know how it would felt if i used it. Have Devilster used BOX in any tournaments?
@@AIRFGC because it keeps it from growing, in order for it to continue on it needs to get new members, arcades have been dying for years, the fgc should be welcoming new blood, fgc devs definitely seem to feel the same
@@Section8dc of course devs want more players, they're selling a product and want more money, but a community is supposed to be about more than money, but to prioritize quality connections between like-minded individuals. How does gatekeeping hold the community back?
@@AIRFGC because the community has been dying for a long time, like I said arcade culture is almost completely gone even in Japan, to continue forward the fgc needs to grow, oviously you don't want all the "normies" to take over, and I am definitely torn on them dumbing down fighting games in recent years, but like it or not in order to proliferate the fgc needs new members and gatekeeping will only destroy the community in an effort to keep it "pure", we are already incredibly niche as it is
I'm old and love my arcade sticks but I also got a Hori Fightpad. Depending on the game that thing is easy mode. But Hitboxes and modern Keyboards are on a whole other level.
You can't charge whilst walking forward, everything else in the video i pretty much agree with. I used to play on keyboard and play Urien so i've tested this.
@@narimandk6387 In SFV? It's absolutely impossible. I think only SFII had that issue, of games that people still play realistically. SFV's forward plus back socd results in forward, which is reasonable (although, confusingly, they want SOCD to clean to neutral in tournament rules, so who knows what's up there,) but walking charge is not possible at all in street fighters 3, 4, or 5.
@@galtar862 I guess it is possible to some cheating not that bad but almost a game breaking sonic boom and that was why daigo's stick was banned once. it is having two separate set of directional buttons, brianf was talking about it
You can input back,forward,back then hit the button for charge moves to maximize your charge with those moves. There’s a speed difference still, but you can still do the same thing he’s describing
@@GazettiSF But you get the constant backwards input. Just let go of forward and you block. You are still charging the move. You really are not making the argument you think you are.
@@RanEncounter if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. you arent getting either. by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing.
@@GazettiSF "if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. " This heavily changes from game to game. Especially when charge buffering is in the game. " you arent getting either" Just because it says neutral does not mean you are not getting a charge. I really don't think you understand how different games work. " by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing." Again it really depends on the game. If you hold both buttons you get neutral in some games, but you can also map the buttons to not do that. Even the controllers have different logic. For example computer keyboards you can have a toggle that makes it either neutral, both together or the first/last button pushed. No modification needed.
Gotta love the 20 minute electric buzzword that gets thrown out, easy way to spot someone that has no experience with the product or idea what they are talking about haha
As a keyboard player who previously used pad and stick: yeah it's busted. I'm perfectly fine with games patching in nerfs to prevent the 2D charge abuse or other tech. 3s Aris was playing doesn't register hitting both at the same time as a neutral in Fightcade and that's great. I will continue using keyboard/mix/hitbox either way for the speed, precision, and significantly less stress on my hands/wrists, and if they ban me from tournaments I just won't attend.
I was a keyboard player and later I switched to DS4 and I use analog stick for movements. The reason why I switched was that one of my finger always managed to press buttons faster than others so doing e.g. EWGF was pain in the ass because it would come out as f n d df df1 or f n d d1 df instead of f n d df1 or doing f fd d db b was horrible when I tried to play as Geese. I don't think keyboard gives some kind of advantage over other types of controllers maybe only if you do direct and fast movements like fff
@@grinsekatzedecheshire7754 it's good that you're sharing your thoughts when you really don't know what you're talking about lol, pewgf is easier on keyboard because the buttons are right next to each other, and you're in a video where one of the top ranking tekken players explains exactly how a hitbox and kb give huge advantages you chimp
Aris don't know what he's talking about. There is an SOCD cleaner in Hitbox and Mixbox. DIY leverless controllers using Brook boards also has multiple types of SOCD cleaners. You can't input opposite directions at the same time. Default on hitbox and mixbox is "back+forward=neutral, up+down=up".
This is wrong. There are certain ones you can buy that have switches for toggling between the 2 different socd "modes", mpress for example. You can also build your own to work that way as well. It's very much possible.
@@Lemon_Force Still has SOCD cleaner. You still can't input opposite directions at once. It just handle it differently. These are the 3 types of SOCD cleaners: "last input priority, up+down=up, up+down = neutral".
I agree that people on Mixboxes or the similar digital controllers are definitely at an advantage. However, I think we have to bear in mind that developments in competitive environments always happen, and I don't think the right thing to do is to try to insulate the games from these developments. Badminton used to be played with wooden rackets, then steel and now aluminium and carbon fibre. Smashes have gotten faster and the entire meta around how to serve has changed as power is more readily available to the best players without it being as tiring or difficult. At no point should Badminton have 'banned' these 'obviously superior' rackets. People who want to remain competitive just got new rackets, got used to playing with them and began enjoying the advantages. The people who refused to could still compete, but they had to understand that they needed to be better by a larger margin to win. I learnt to serve underhand; and if I wanted to return to playing competitively I'd have to master the backhand serve. That's just the case now. I think the only issues are 1) the above example took place over some 40 years and the development and implementation of Mixboxes has been nigh instantaneous by comparison, and 2) the manufacturing of the equipment is monopolized by relatively few producers and that means people might be priced out of getting a Mixbox or equivalent. EDIT: An interesting parallel I thought of afterwards is that the Classic Tetris Competitive scene still requires the use of the original SNES controller and CRT monitors, so you can get competitive environments that prohibit technological progress. At the end of the day, it is down to the individual tournament/league organizers what they will or will not permit.
Plus the biggest improvement that happened in the fgc with SFIV was when usb arcade sticks were being made and there was a competition between a 8 way stick and a square 4 way stick. 4 way was absolutely better because of that square design that it's now standard if your going to own a stick.
The whole argument comes down to "hitbox should be banned cuz it is faster". Inputing two opposite directions at once is only a problem for old games, new games ***NEVER*** allow you to input two opposite directions at the same time, when they code the game they think about this kind of stuff. Being faster is not a good argument since pad is faster than lever and by the same logic it should also be banned, also pad CAN input two directions just like hitbox but inputing one direction on pad and the opposite on analog stick, may not be easy but it's possible. Personally I think hitbox is better than lever, but trying to use logic to get it banned will never work cuz it doesn't break any rules it's just faster.
"my brain works" proceeds to blame developers for not having the foresight to code a controller thats clearly used by bitches 20 years in the future. lmao yeah sure bro, your brains working just fine
The way you think and the poor excuses to justify wrongs is disgusting. People like you are the most dishonest ones because you try to bend reality to your favor.
Aris says this and addresses it if you watch the original video. He says that he believes pads are also technically cheating but it wouldn't be wise to ban them because it's the default device that comes with the consoles they use in tournaments and banning them would be further gatekeeping an already niche pool of potential contenders
Brian_f also made a reply to this argument that Aris brought up, disagreeing with a couple of fair counter points about the HitBox and whatnot. Give it a go if you don't know him or if you want even more insight on the subject, it's pretty constructive.
If you really think that of Brian, it's clear that you don't follow him on RUclips or you're not familiar with him and you're failing to see his point of view. Calling someone a "shill" for criticizing something is like...the opposite of being a "shill", just so you know...because he is openly criticizing the HitBox without any influence but his own experience with it. I won't let you do him like that ma man, uh uh.
TMM and Aris are the absolute best. They've both been around for donkeys years (whatever the hell that saying means) and they both still state things with 0 bullcrap Also, Aris' streams are so f***ing funny but you've got to adapt to the chat to survive. It's actually very strict. No essaying, no asking stupid questions, no mocking Aris. Likely to be banned.
Yes you can do that on a controller and a stick, I do it all the time. There are 4 extra buttons on a stick to use if you play Tekken. I map down, left and right to three of them and thats is how I KBD. On a controller I map left and right to the back paddles. If your talking about SODC, that is banned in tournaments so the argument is stupid.
no you cannot forward dash while charging lol this is something that was possible in some older games with keyboard, pad (using analog+dpad), or very early batches of hitboxes that didn't have SOCD cleaners, which effectively cancel forward+back into a neutral input at a hardware level hitbox can be cheap and crossup can be even cheaper but i wish we could stick to like, actual realistic criticisms about the device instead of shit like thinking you can forward dash while charging or people losing their shit over some guy wavedashing with two hands or something
Except you could? It got patched out, which is something developers should be coding into their engines, but I think that take is disingenuous. As it stands, it is literally a corcked bat in a lot of fighting games still. It's fine for non-competitive players to make things as easy as they want, but they need to actually do a better job screening these peripherals for games like Tekken until the code catches up. Once the engine can clean the inputs itself, then who the hell cares what you play on. But it is rediculous to completely ignore the genuine cheating you can still do with pretty much every device except sticks. It doesn't matter if it's already "illegal" to use certain functions, no one is checking and they won't take action unless it's in everyone's face. I think it's more like pine tar in baseball than a corked bat. There are legal and illegal sunstances to help pitchers get more spin. Umps only check if they think fans are noticing and it screws over pitchers that worked their ass off doing it the natural way.
I get the argument, but I hate this argument because everyone has the ability to pick up the same controller. Even the comparison to using steroids doesn't make sense. If they allow steroids in a competition, and you participate without steroids... that's on you. The same thing with broken characters, there are characters that are wayyyy overturned sometimes, and you see them being used everywhere... so just use them too. Nobody is forcing to play a low tier character. The only excuse I can find is that some players are used to the controller they have always used, and they just don't want to change. But at the highest level of competition, you HAVE to adapt.
Now we're saying stick is outdated? Damn we've come a long way. I remember the '09ers stroking the balltip of the arcade stick, saying it was by far superior to pad. The FGC I tell ya...
It was the late ‘90ers (and millennials) who love the arcade sticks, due to how popular the actual real arcades were at the time. Pad was very widespread by ‘09.
Here we go again, grandpas discussing whether pressing buttons is cheating. Button-based controllers aren't cheating, sticks and pads are a handicap. Grandpas play on sticks due to legacy skill, console players play pads because that's the controller they have, and that's fine. PC players play keyboard because that's what they have, and that's also fine. Moving your body to generate one input per press will never be cheating. Games where buttons allow "illegal" tech (like blocking both sides or sidestep into foreground while crouching) are de-facto bugged and should be fixed. PS4/5 not allowing regular cheap USB keyboards should look towards Xbox and not force people to buy 300$ Hit/Mix boxes to get access to buttons.
The whole left and right button presses at the same time is just plain wrong and is not possible with a Hitbox btw. This input gets cleaned by the SOCD cleaner and registers a neutral input. The controller merely follows the coding that is allowed in the game. If we're gonna address this problem, the game developers need to do something about it. People are blaming the wrong thing. It's the programming inside the game should take the blame, not the controllers. Pads can already do this type of things possible with an HB, so ban pad? EDIT: Btw im an Arcade Stick Lever user. I dont even own the hitbox, I just understand how SOCD works. Someone might accuse me of being a HB shill lol. Im not, im a Lever Lover. If you ask me, yes HB's gives you advantage because of faster inputs, but should it be banned? No. The controllers are just simply evolving. Lever controllers are ancient, it was a thing before I was even born (born in 96).
I mean, the controller itself could prevent it without the software, but they don't want that as it would limit their sales, and people would find workarounds anyway or build their own stuff. At this point I don't think devs care enough to make the ethical decision of coding for/against it. Which can only limit player base. But maybe that will change.
Pads don't really allow you to do it, at least not in a conventional sense. Sure you could hold left on a DS4 dpad and right on the left stick but it's not physically practical. The dpad itself doesn't even allow both directions to be pushed at the same time. So yeah, we can ban the controller and not have an issue with the way the game is coded. Even if we take lay the blame solely on devs and how they coded the game, should we just let these controllers rock until devs manage to code for every variation that stops these things from happening?
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot Im talking about the official HB's that follow the game's standards btw not custom made ones that bypasses it. Those ones are definitely cheating. The Official hitbox controllers are REQUIRED to follow tournament rules, so the regular Hitboxes just follows whatever capcom tells them. The custom made ones for sure I take issue with. Those ones are a problem.
@@Ravemaster620 Practicality doesnt matter, banning something is not based off "Practicality" it's whether you CAN or CAN'T do it. Pads, MB's and, HB's CAN do this, so why pads are not banned then. MenaRD and Nuckeldu (pro pad players) do those tech already. But yes I agree, it's definitely faster than a regular lever controller, that's basically the whole schtick of Hitboxes and Mixboxes.
@@SlaineReigns How would that work with different developers and games? They just stick to what Capcom says and everyone plays along and that's the product they get? Not that that's a bad thing necessarily in this case, I'm just curious.
In protection of keybords. There exist core moves fore some characters in some fighting games that require the player to input staff like ← ←+↓ ↓+→ → for example before pressing a button or a combination of buttons. On a joystick those kinds of inputs are waaaaay easier, because you can acompilsh them with a single move of a finger. Some fighting games, that are not tekken also require you to actually push a dedicated buttton for a block, making the ability to hold ← and → at the same time not that useful in comparison, if not useless at all.
Im pretty sure tekken has block while moving back but, You first reason is quite true. In other fighting games, you have to insert that amount of input to just use the a move, especially special. In this case, a Joystick would be a useful control item as i have managed to pull of a move with the same amount of inputs in quick succession with a very high possibility to pull it off. I remember playing a Saint Seiya game with a character special of this input and managed to pull it off after knowing joystick is a movement input as well.
But wasn't the argument not about easier and harder? Because if you're a world class player it wouldn't matter because they would learn how to get over that? Thats what Aris basically said. Its a weak argument. I get that its hard for some players but they're talking about tournaments where people actually don't give a care about what's easier and whats harder in terms of input because the mix,hit,keyboard etc gives an advantage beyond just doing things easier, its an advantage that you physically cannot replicate if you do not have the same tool. Unless I read your comment wrong and you can just ignore this.
@@25thJamzy then, wouldn't they rather recommend themselves to play with mixes and boards either? Like TMM said, sticks are just an old school feel, i would love to try them. I can see why people somewhat gets annoyed of player using Box and boards since i just discover myself they have extra directional inputs that lets you access some moves faster. Idk why would it be an advantage against stick? Is it because stick has to return to neutral for it to string another direction input.
@@Marleigh_san Well it goes down to tradition for that first part. As mentioned by Lord Aris and TMM we played these games on arcade and by extension stick/pad. They're the tools that were given to play these games and they have limitations such as highlighted, the double input directionals. The games were designed with the idea of using these tools. But now we have tools that can surpass the design of the game. So question it a bit, should we use a tool that overcomes the design for the game in tournaments (Like using a cork bat as Lord Aris mentioned)? Should we use a tool that the game never thought intended to exist? And because of that the design of the game is now flawed. I'm not the one to judge this because I have no authority to so I'll pose that question back to you. Is it fair? Why it would be an advantage, well that can be summed up by taking into account what the double directional inputs means against stick. What a double directional does is that gives a player the ability to do things that is simply impossible for players that aren't using the same tool to do the same. Blocking is much different with double directional because you can move forward and block much faster just because you can use both movement buttons at the same time, ensuring that you can block at an exact frame from when you stop moving forward. In stick/pad you cannot do that simply because you have to reset to neutral. There has to be rules. Personally, you should watch Aris' full video because he makes great points on this and better examples. I basically butchered what they said in this comment.
@@25thJamzy it's not simply easier/harder - it's also faster/slower, with a vastly different skillfloor level of execution. A joystick player needs to move his finger once, twice at most, that is it. A keybord player needs to input multiple inputs one after another. Unless you are playing some briandead easy to execute characters - one can argue, that using a keyboard will actually either SLOW you down or even straight up restrict your moveset. Keyboard is not simply an upgrade - it's a trade off, that requires you to work for it.
If a Mishima mirror match gives an inherent advantage to P1 side, because you can't step left in certain situations only on P2 side, it is not Hitbox that breaks the game but Stick. Hitbox rather, is the controller, which equals the playing field.
@@MrBroken030 I hate people like you so much because you don't realize the hypocrisy in your words now that you are not the one with the best controller. I still remember the time in the fgc when everyone was like: "just buy an arcade stick bro" Now I can just say the same, just buy an hitbox stop complaining
Hitbox does socd cleaning, so you can't actually input opposite directions at once. In general, what is cheating and what is not is determined by what is normal. If the norm was to play with mittens on, anyone taking them off would be considered cheating, even if it's just the sensible thing to do. The hitbox is a better input device, but if someone playing on a microwave claimed that everyone else was cheating, they'd be laughed out of the room. This being said, games could handle the inputs a lot better, but you certainly can't forward dash mid charge in any reputable games. It's faster to transition between charging and dashing, but due to socd clearing, you get neutral(sometimes the one you pressed last) when pressing both sides at once. Also pads often don't do socd clearing, so you can use both an analog stick and the dpad to do funky stuff (pressing opposite sides in SFV gives you forward, which leads to pad exclusive mixups) - Hitbox apologist
When something comes out that completely invalidates something else, generally the smart thing to do is to adopt it as the new standard instead of screaming about it on twitter.
Okay I agree to most things, but I am geniuinly curious on what the opinion is on the argument, on how advancements on certain things should possibly even be the norm. Since arcade sticks were a default, you have travel time and a much more difficult situation than a gamepad. The game pad has way way less travel time and the general execution is faster. Its still fine to use nonetheless. Then the hitbox came out and is not a step above a gamepad but now the limit is overdone? Why is it wrong to make things easier or more exciting by making them faster. When horses raced and the transition to cars happened, people were saying its unfair how much faster it is. of course it is but that is just the way advancements work. We always strive to make things as optimized as possible. Maybe a bad comparison but I hope you get what I mean. I would like to see this argument to be deducted.
a big staple in fighting games is execution. that's been getting forgotten about more and more as the years go on, games become more lenient, and certain techniques are removed. but execution was a big thing that separated players from each other. the ability to perform at a high level under a lot of stress and still be able to perform very difficult techniques was a big reason why fighting games had a lot of appeal. making execution easier so that everyone can have good execution dilutes that aspect of the game and a lot of players don't enjoy having the skills they worked hard to obtain get undermined because the new players don't feel like grinding that aspect of the game. also making execution easier removes the excitement because it's no longer cool to see someone do a difficult combo if it's bnb levels of easy.
@@VRFist but you can be walking forward and instantly press back to block, with no time from going front to back, which changes a character like guile a lot. or you can block a move and instantly ss without having to move your wrist
@@RustyRants then on this line of reasoning then organizers should just standardize which particular brand to use. Different brands have totally different feelings to them and that will affect a lot of players.
@@RustyRants one, the transition is not instant and using a more effective tool is not cheating. Its your choice waht you play on and if you decide to not play on hit box when it is simply a more modern and effective controller then thats on you dude. Nothing it does is cheating.
The players in the east have adopted and embraced this style of controller, meanwhile over the west we're bitching and moaning. And we wonder why we always fall behind in the FGC.
@@juhadexcelsior he's talking about tournaments, in sfv there's just one british evo champion and the rest are ALL asians, even in sf4 times the champions were almost all asians too, mostly from japan
It's the developers fault for jank old code in the engine not being cleaned, but it's also not showing much pride by abusing what are essentially glitches to win a competition. All the world-class players aside from Super Akouma use pad or stick for Tekken, so I'm not sure what you mean. People who have easy mode controllers just don't like being called out. Aris is literally telling people to cheat as much as they want, he's just pointing outwhy it is cheating.
@@aidanklobuchar1798 modded controllers that are being used are, in fact, against the rules. We don't even disagree on using what you can get away with to win. It's just what you define cheating as. A lot of the old-school define it as cheating. Let's put it this way; I'm not going to pat anyone on the back for bowling near perfect games every game when you're using bumper rails
Completely disagree and no it's not science. The only part of it that could arguably be an immutable law like you two are suggesting is the part where there are milliseconds of disparity between pressing a button and holding back on an arcade stick, even then I think the difference between the advantage of the former over the latter is being vastly overstated - moving a joystick from forward to back happens in an instant. Barring that sticks have the advantage of consistency of hand motions (playing 2P side with a leverless controller is a much bigger ordeal especially with command characters) and the reliability of microswitches being felt and heard with each directional input. All control methods are viable and you said yourself that the world's best Kazuya plays on a stick, that's not a coincidence and it's not simply down to tradition otherwise all this epic science and objectively observable fact would have produced legions of superior players mopping the floor with that guy. I feel the efficacy of an arcade style controller with a lever is really being downplayed here and I don't care what Reddit or the barely sentient FGC has to say about microseconds of time saved or what's objectively better, most of these players have to remind themselves to breathe manually so I take what the consensus approved opinion is with some scepticism.
great video! love you and love aris! btw I'm pretty sure if I'm not mistaken that Nuckledu was quoted as holding the left analog stick down with one finger to charge with guile while using dpad to do another input. it's not really the same as free electrics really at all but still an interesting thing to throw in the discussion.
is the thing about mixbox being able to step into the foreground while crouching even true? I'm pretty sure that's a game limitation not a controller one
I played an psp emulator of tekken 6 before (i know it somewhat feels different but hear me out) and this somewhat exist. By pressing down which leads you into sidestep or sidestepping into the (depends on the input). Just by holding along the back button, you access your crouch immediately after which i always do in tekken 6. Background can do it also but not as fast as into foreground. I don't know about fightstick but i guess what they said is true. Dpad controller can do it i think. Does fight stick can't access other direction immediately after a directional input and always have to enter neutral first? Then that's quite a disadvantage.
any game breaking aspects of all button controllers should be patched out by devs in the first place. the fact that all button controllers provide an "unfair advantage" is already because devs don't program their game accordingly. even the nintendo joycons have directional buttons, and many consoles in the past had them as well. there is also the argument that any input should be or is already mappable to any other button on a controller. The directions on a stick are digital on off switches just like a hitbox controller is, so from a hardware level it is already possible to do these things on stick if you were to dismantle it without touching the electronics. input convenience is not and shouldn't be tournament illegal.
@@drftr6073 Problem is that even with SOCD cleaning, hitbox has scientific advantages. Thumbs and sticks have travel time that is completely eliminated by buttons. This travel time allows inputs by a hitbox player to be impossibly fast vs pad or arcade stick. On hitbox, making a mistake such as "moving your thumb/stick too far" is impossible. On top of that, you cannot software fix the fact that even with SOCD cleaning a hitbox is impossibly faster than a DPAD or Arcade stick. A ps4 controller has an easy in-game fix to only allow directional input from dpad. Hitbox cannot be policed in the same way, and even if it could the speed of a hitbox is impossible to replicate on a controller or arcade stick.
@@davidburke4101 the physical convenience of button inputs is just optimization. you can't just waggle a 5 inch metal rod that you got for 200$ and call it cheating when people play on anything more comfortable or cheaper. it's obviously faster to have a finger on every input rather than pressing every button with your thumb and index finger.
Mainman, you are such a humble and cool dude. I don´t even play fighting games but i still watch your videos because i really enjoy your personality, stay strong!
Being able to step inside (SSL on 2P after forced crouch) doesn't break the game, it fixes it. Your advantage doesn't depend on one rock paper scissors before the match. Also you can do two opposite direction on a gamepad, just use both the d-pad and the analog stick. SFV players do it for charge characters for years.
Yup, totally agree. I play on stick because it's easier on my hands and I can play for hours without my fingers hurting (pad) or my hand going numb (keyboard) But when I was playing keyboard my execution with Kazuya in just a couple months was unreal. I main Law and I can't dss on keyboard or pad because I get the timing wrong by pressing b,f,f faster than I should because the directions can be pressed faster with these controllers.
i am a hori hayabusa noir tekken edition. i have hayabusa lever but swapped it into sanwa parts. even still if my opponent is using a mixbox i dont mind. its just so happen that they are modern fighters and us are simply the classic one like in tekken if your character has unfair advantage just simply adapt or use that broken character and join the band wagon to even the playing field. what i mean we are in a modern age now that all methods of controler are being used whether its a steering wheel if thats where you are comfortable of using..
these are facts, another fact is that leverless is the future no doubt... unless they redesign the games somehow... so lets all jump on hitboxes so that we at least compete on same devices, period
Well you bring up the Mishima point. I'd easily counter by saying that you shouldn't have an advantage by just having a player 1 or player 2 side so the hit box simply fixes that. So I'd actually say just having player1 side would be cheating because you gwt an inherent advantage from no effort of your own.
@@SShaBazzz what if the person on p2 can play better mishima? Do you really think movement is all there is to tekken? Why are there then players winning on p2 side with mishimas?
@@ensar4115 them having better movement isn't the point. The fact that it's an inherent disadvantage is the main problem. By your logic, hit box isn't really a problem at all because they may have the controller but the person with a Aecade stick has the better fundamentals and movement skill.
@@SShaBazzz I agree it is an inherent disadvantage but my point is, is that tekken isnt all about movement. There are more ways to win in tekken. I think this argument of yours makes no sense because you can't do anything about it. Ofcourse you can bring a hitbox, but for one tiny fault in the matchup you are agreeing to a cheater box who will be used by hundreds of players, and not only for kazuya. The hitbox is not a viable solution at all. This argument of yours sounds like an mma fighter trying to justify his steroid use.
Yes but he also plays with mixbox as well. There is a video of him vs Arslan Ash where he uses mixbox and not controller. He is skilled at all the controllers just so that he can participate at tournaments incase keyboard isn't allowed.
charging while walking forward does not work. the hitbox has a board specifically for resolving impossible inputs. it is the same as with blocking, the advantage comes from starting your charge the frame you let go of forward, because you're already holding back.
When I see or hear Aris the first things that come to mind are: "Your comment is trash and dumb to smoke!" "Chicken on a stick!" "Harada played the violine in this game?!" And "unbreakable european grab" Cool dude
One thing no one seems to bring up is IF this technology becomes available to everyone, then at which point can it be considered a technological advancement and therefore, how much of the balancing is up to the devs? IDK, it's an interesting dilemma. To me it feels a lot like comparing adjustable mechanical keycaps and a membrane pad.
Aris says in his video that he thinks controllers should be illegal too but it's not practical for accessibility reasons to ban the default controller of the systems the game is made for
@@EdgyDabs47 do you know who knuckledu is? he does that, mhike2stronk does that; also how impractical it is, it's not relevant, it's possible and people do it at the highest level. zzzzzz try again
he is talking about things which are impossible with stick or controller and are possible with hitbox and etc, not about hardships of execution with different controllers
@@exusiaii3691 I hear you. I am saying that different controllers have their advantages and disadvantages. MainMan does start the video saying arcade stick is inferior and Aris believes that game pads should also be banned(before he knew that you can do almost anything on it that you can do on Boxes). So I'm adding more things to think about
@@exusiaii3691 Just an add on in case it gets lost; You CAN do the same things on a D-Pad that you can do on Boxes. A basic test; Have your Right thumb hold Back on the Left analogue, then alternate between forward and down on the D-Pad with your Left thumb. Perfect KBD every single time. Boxes might have the speed and practicality advantage. The Street Fighter examples they gave can be done on D-Pad too(4f Super, Crouching Flashkick)
I just have a question Why should it be banned if it's a better standard that gives new player better way to play ? Why should it be banned if it helps being perfect and developpers don't care about it ? How is that cheating to use something that has just a better ergonomy ? And why do we still have this debate since, cross on some pad controllers are straigt up the same thing ?
How are leverless controllers unfair since anyone can get one? Some are cheaper than a ps5 controller. No one forces you to play on arcade stick. If you refuse to adapt, it's on you and noone else. In any sport competiters get the best gear they can, instead of complaining others do... lol I don't understand how there's even a debate.
Sticks are a tradition that comes from arcades, something that isn't popular anymore. Consoles and PC's are popular and being used constantly though, that's how the crushing majority of people play, and the necessity that made Hitbox come into reality, "PC players that are used to keyboard, and either want to go to tournaments hosted on consoles, or want to play with friends that play only on consoles" is also still very much present The reality is that stick owners are a dying breed. There's no reason to start playing fighting games in one except for nostalgia
The fact the hitbox came out around the time I developed carpel tunnel was a godsend. If the hitbox gets banned I literally could not play fighting games anymore due to the pain I get playing on pad and stick that I don't seem to get playing box. Genuinely hope that doesn't happen would suck for people in the same situation as me. I enjoy doing locals sometimes and banning them would actively hurt my enjoyment so that's been my argument on the matter. I'm ok with banning socd cleaning but an all together ban I'm personally against.
old post but I gotta comment. The argument isnt about what you should be allowed to do for fun, its an argument regarding what devices should be allowed in a competitive setup (online rank matches dont count as competitive). Its all about competitive integrity. They shouldn't allow people with cyborg legs with jet boosters that comes with it to compete in an olympic track and field tournament just because that person didn't have the luxury to be born with a set of functioning legs.
@@番長ほむら Yeah no offense but I can't even argue against that. Comparing actual cybernetic augmentations to make yourself better in a sport is nowhere near the level of buying a controller my good sir lol.
The only problem i can see with the argument is that if the idea is to ban Hitbox/Keyboard from tournaments because theyre unfair then why not just ban stick instead, other controllers are superior in every way, why make people play worse on outdated controllers instead of making the better ones the norm?
It depends on the hardware available, same reason controllers were allowed. Once consoles were becoming the main hardware you play fighting games on, controllers were allowed because it's what people use. In the end the devs are gonna consider keyboard in mind for the future simply because of the accessibility of one.
As person who suffers from carpal tunnel it sucks trying to play my favorite fighting game with pain is ass. Sure is using a hit box cheating? I guess? Do I need to show my medical card in order to use a hit box? Try to feel that nerve pain it’s awful. Kinda sad that they don’t take consideration about someone’s else hands.
Are you playing competitive? If no, then this doesn't apply to you as stated in the video: casual/at home you can do whatever. They are talking about standardizing competitive play to a somewhat even play field.
I started out with pad, then moved to stick, then Hitbox. I agree when it comes to proficiency: Hitbox > pad > stick. Though, I think Hitbox should just be the standard controller to use. It's much more comfortable and gives more control over our characters which I think should be the point of designing or using a controller in the first place. But I also understand how it can be disappointing spending so many years on stick only for a new controller to come out, making it easier for newcomers to do things that are otherwise considered feats and a display of dedication and skill on stick or even pad.
It sounds like both TMM and aris don't know about SOCD-cleaning and the fact that daigo had a hitbox that was banned for having multiple buttons for the same direction and not having standard SOCD-cleaning.
Modern equipment always replaces antiquated gear in competitive settings, it's your own admirable choice to continue to use arcade stick, but it's definitely not worth bragging about, when there are now clearly better options.
It's like these people are scared to be relics of the past. Just because people have found more efficient ways to play the game, without doing something outrageous like turbo button, or clear cheating. Does not mean it is cheating. This is almost like saying M+KB is cheating because you don't have a narrow range of motion and can turn faster. So what? TMM argument about "On this controller I can step to the left on FC". So what? It sounds like people are finding ways to play the game without being limited by a controller.
@@theminorprophet5132 Because the game was balanced around that and certaing things being very difficult or impractical. The developer needs to take these things into account in future and adjust accoridingly. Might as well get rid of the execution behind electrics, movement etc completely.
@@atuls55 SFV for example made it that you can't hold 2 directions at once. They addressed situations like that and made it that you can't walk and charge for example and people still think they are cheating. When it comes to a game, I don't think what developers want and not doing what they want necessarily means you are cheating. I mean, if that is the case, then RC in CVS2 was cheating, because they didn't balance around that, yet people thought it was fine. I think it has to be a mix of not doing what was intended and having a very clear advantage over your opponent. I am not committed to this idea, but I am going to go with it for now and if I find any counter examples, I'll change. Hitbox makes Electrics easier, taunt jet upper easier, and makes it that you can sidestep left when you are in FC, for example. I don't think to me that is such a clear advantage that you're now in cheating territory. I think you just found a tool that makes your input more precise. To be drastic, it's not like it's auto aim in a fps or it's doing something that you have like 100% defense like you can never be opened up or something. So far, all I've seen is that it makes inputs easier, but not easy enough to the point where it's like a macro or something and that's not what the developers intended. To me, that doesn't constitute as cheating because cheating to me would have to be such a clear advantage to point where the game is being played for you.
@@loto7197 No your making a generalization about new equipment. Not all new equipment is a good thing. Electrics among other things are extremely powerful but you always had the argument that they were so hard to do. If they were going to be a lot easier that should be up to the developer and then nerf them accordingly. This was one of the issue with the new characters being so easy and powerful at the same time. Akuma was never as widesread a problem as Leroy/Fahkumram for a reason.
Technically left and right/up and down are possible on a pad (dpad+analogue stick). It’s not practical obviously but it’s technically possible, so we’re essentially arguing over the shape and layout of the pad (in which case they are all different). Obviously it’s not the same thing but on paper it’s just a different shaped controller.
Also, it’s not an unfair advantage at all as everyone is allowed to use these controllers. If you’re at a disadvantage because of your controller you can either change your controller or cope with it!
false you can input 2 directions at the same time with regular ps4 pad: using d pad and the stick at the same time, and yes players do that: famously knuckledu
Honestly, the sidestep from crouch argument makes it sound like the game is inherently broken and that the hitbox just allows one to avoid that. The issue is with the game, not the controller. I think the tekken scene is better when it isn’t just a matter of playing Rock Paper Scissors to determine if you get the side you want. On a different note, I don’t think that hitbox will end up killing arcade sticks or anything like that since most people think they’re fun. I wouldn’t be surprised if top player end up almost all switching to either cross ups, keyboards, hit boxes, or something else along those lines.
You can press Forwards & Backwards at the same time on any analogue PlayStation controller using Dpad & analogue. Based on that logic, you should ban all PlayStation controllers
@@Propa_Ganda_Panda no, socd on a hitbox allows you to do things like press from down to up without neutral and get down instead of neutral while pressing right+left+down, if socd was handled by the game they could use last input priority
@@aquilesca5tr0 yes, what I said is a fact. Don't go saying no, then sighting another topic. You cannot press Forwards & Backwards on Hitbox at the same time. Don't backtrack on what you said.
IMO, the best way to fix this problem is that FG game developers should include how input register work in their game and add a rule that people cannot change how input works in that. For example, Let us say this game X is released with their own input register format like left + right = left. If you used a controller that changes that default input register, then it should be bannable. If the controller doesnt break that format then it should be okay.
Do people just forget SOCD input cleaning exists? Illegal inputs are literally impossible. These anti-hitbox arguments are actually archaic, it's becoming comical
Bro people literally have SOCD cleaners built into their hitboxes on a hardware level. It's already over long before the inputs are received by whichever game.
"You shouldn't have talked, now you got the whole chat laughing at you"
One of my favorite lines from Aris ever
Which video
@@Itachi_gt3rs whaddya mean which video? That's every other time he flames someone for sharing a dumb opinion in chat KEKW at least the sentiment if not the quote verbatim
@@Itachi_gt3rs You shouldn't have posted! Now you have the whole youTube channel laughing at you!
They have a funny relationship, TMM doesn't "talk" to Aris but Aris increasees TMM viewer count because he's always telling people to watch for Tekken
I would pay top dollar to see TMM &Aris as commentators in tournaments
Hey alright
I mean, that would be glorious.
I really think it would improve tournaments share by a lot since both Aris and TMM are able to entertain so naturally.
It would be a very unique commentary because Aris just says anything top of his head and just goes with it LOL 😂
I thought he commentated evo once but could’ve heard wrong
If only Aris would ever leave his damn house anymore lul
Aris and TMM are the two people who most helped my Tekken game. Hail to both of them!
Yep. Shame Aris stopped playing cuz of how toxic the community is for a game he loves. I learned a lot just from watching him. I still watch top players but I mixed it up watching my own gameplay. That’ll take you to the next level.
@@ShiftingCloudsYT toxicity he can handle just fine he stopped playing because t7 online is so trash and he got stream snipe a lot
@@aadliafiq nah he just hates Tekken fans 😂
But yeah
Online sucks
I learned so much about Tekken from that Hagrid looking man right there.
you should tell him that on aris'
twitch channel
@@lilcrazyaaron209 nice setup
@@JohnLick96 hehehe that kids not ready
😂😂😂😂
Aris is my favourite commenter by far, I'll watch him play anything he's fuckin hillarious. But I've learned more about the game from TMM.
Dude his ebola 3 playthrough was too good
@@SirBranDon24 the cutscenes haha
Aris dropping a Mirror in Path of Exile and not even knowing what he had was peak content imo
That's because you had to watch Aris since TTT2 days. Believe it or not he was making guides about the game.
@@Mr440c Yeah, Aris' guides were the shit man. He was like a genius at work, he explained the basics of fighting game in such a unique manner - like finding pair of moves that complement each other and many more. I miss those guides.
If Tokido went to it that’s all you need to know. He’s known for going for any & every advantage in fighting games. He’s not dropping years of stick play for a Hitbox for no reason.
Aris and TMM are the real OGs of Tekken's Butthash Online Content.
This is 100% on the devs IMHO. 4 frame super (although the input requires preparation and is incredibly awkward) in street fighter is only possible due to input leniency. In older street fighters this is completely impossible since diagonals are required. For the tekken specific examples like sidestep that could be patched in either direction. The charge character thing is bullcrap tho, that doesn't work like that.
I do think you can charge and walk forward in sf2
but yeah, everywhere else thats not how it works
@@fernandopires135 not on a hitbox or a mixbox. That was "patched out" in hardware. On keyboard, yeah maybe, but it depends on the emulator
yeah, last input does allow for frame perfect return from forward to back and sf6 guile's new "perfect boom" will unfortunately be incredibly easy to do as well since you can use the same hand for both buttons, but I think neutral socd cleaning is already good enough at mitigating the game breaking aspects of cardinal direction buttons if not for the weird input leniency that is unique to every game that may allow it to do dubious and funky stuff.
The irony about input leniency, though, is that it seems designed to mitigate the difficulty of precise command inputs on stick/pad. Now that hitboxes do away with the precision hurdle, they can even further exploit the game's adaptation for its inherent difficulty.
@@crystalnite I don't know about that. It's easy to miss diagonals in quarter circles or especially half circles (or even the down input) on leverless, but i never miss them on pad or stick. The crossup is a different story, where you get the advantages of both, and the downsides of neither i guess
Aris is funny as fuk he always keeps it real no matter what 😭
Yeah this is the best comedy on the planet
@@ant_989 no kidding 😭
Around the 10 minute mark he talks about some good tekken playa’s what’s their names??
I wish TMM watched the whole video, some great points were still in there as well as the hilarious moments Aris usually brings
I once asked Super Akouma "What's the most difficult technic to do on a hitbox?". He just replied "nothing!"
That's not the issue in the first place either. But, shit like Ivy's SS or CS command grabs in Soul Calibur I would say are easier to do on stick/pad than hitbox.
NOUM: Super Akouma, what’s the most difficult technique to do on a hitbox?
Super Akouma: Rien
playing right side xP
so? Just buy one or make one yourself, problem solved.
FYI, you can totally use socd match practically on dualshock and dualsense. Place all the buttons on the triggers and bumpers, then you have both hands to use for the pad and left stick. I've played with it, it's definitely a step up on normal pad movement
in 2d games you can already use your right hand on the left stick to trigger socd for "frame perfect" sonic booms. there area already pad players who play like this.
Paddles also, I have a buddy who uses his paddles for tricks
Ye
What’s SOCD?
Technically a playstation controller can press 2 directions at the same time as well. Both SFV and T7 allow the usage of DPAD and Analog at the same time so you can still cancel directions without letting go of the first one.
Aris is one the funniest dudes on the planet
Yep
SOCD Cleaner exists to eliminate inputs that are impossible. You can't input opposite directions in a hitbox. The game registers neutral or up. There is only an advantage just for travel time and socd inputs having a way to push neutral at will. There are no illegal inputs
Everyone keeps repeating the dual input thing but any homebrew box that is capable of doing that is already banned
@@greatbigeyeball and either way, the game should be accounting for these situations with its own input cleaning. If the controller can send inputs that break the game, the devs need to reconsider their input processing to account for it. It should be treated like any other exploit.
@@deciett Yes. This is the correct take. I am a developer myself and in my honest opinion the rise of new controllers have simply made people aware of the shortcomings FGs have in their inner-workings. These developers are notoriously behind the times and technology (10+ years and we still can't guarantee working online). They just got lazy because the niche of players were willing to self police. No other genre would try to tell people what controller someone decides to use when they could just fix it at the engine level.
"The game registers neutral or up"
Yes, that is the advantage as TMM explains when he talks about being able to sidestep after Kaz/Hei f+4.
Also most SOCDs are either set to register either the first or the last input last which has it's own problems entirely.
Just because your hitbox has a SOCD does not mean it fixes all the inherent problems with hitboxes.
Having 'neutral' as an actual input isnt currently illegal, but it is something that sticks & (arguably) pad cannot do at all. Its not a macro, but its not something to overlook.
Smacking big ol' buttons feels way more responsive than wiggling a joystick around.
I mean in the 90s and early 2000s pads were considered cheating too (especially by the "elite" arcade cabins players). You couldn't even use binds in some local tournaments and that's why some legacy Tekken players learned the claw grip on pad. Nowadays button binds on controllers are considered perfectly fine by pretty much everyone in the fgc. At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller. Also, game developers are slowly dropping more complicated legacy motion inputs for the sake of being more accessible for casual players so one day this hitbox double input cheat argument will become irrelevant anyway.
Motion input are a key design in fighting games, removing them will not allow you to do 6 attack buttons with command normals it will result in an entirely different game system and honestly it's not impressive nor more fun that's why a game like Street Fighter can't remove them and they are still in SF6, like imagine an invincible 3f reversal move without motion input will be just broken and removing it will not be the same.
The thing that devs are doing is just making games easy like GG Strive in this game some combos and hit confirms are so easy you can just call it auto combo despite having motion inputs but they are so lenient and easy that you can't say it's hard game for new players even with motion inputs in it on the contrary, but regardless hitbox will always have an advantage and as top SF japan players are using Hitbox more and more it will becomes more common.
Definitely agree with you there.
the dev could just block opposite inputs. this code could write 1 person in 10 minutes and add it to the game.
You don't understand anything from this video... "At the end of the day better player will always win regardless of the controller" - dude no. You can be "the better player" but if your opponent is playing on controler which literally can do things which others can't - you will lose. That's the argument. It's impossible to win despite having better execution or legacy skill. It's physically impossible to win. The only way to gauge which player is better is to use same controllers.
@@Nobbi_Habogs The devs can't do that since like Aris said the Hitbox will do it's cleaning itself so what that means if you are holding back and then press forward without letting go of back the Hitbox will therefore immediately send only the forward input, so this hole problem with hitboxes can't be solved by the devs this way.
It's not a problem on the software level but on the hardware level since in a Hitbox you are free to tweak your SOCD cleaner to last input win or first input when you press two buttons at the same time.
HitBox was the entire reason I actually got into fighting games. I could never get clean L/R on an arcade stick, & the d-pad & trigger buttons were problems on a pad. Aside from a recent ESD death to my SnackBox, I've loved SF6 constantly since release. It DID take like 4 months to get used to the leverless layout though.
I main Zafina and I play on keyboard... I realized over 20 years ago keyboard was best for fighting games and it took a LONG time to feel most comfortable on one.
I KBD by holding back (constant), tapping forward, neutral, down, neutral, forward, neutral down... sometimes you gotta hit that first forward twice to get it going. I barely bother blocking.
It's really THAT simple.
Agree, keyboard is amazing, it's quite complicated to do stuff like Geese's Raging Storm but for KBD and other stuff it's really easy
I just hold back, double hit F and have a good timing of D,F,D,F,D,F,D,F, same with waves
I'd like to try a hitbox tho, it's like a keyboard but looks way more comfortable, and the family won't try to murder me for playing
I play on keyboard too but I have to admit that it basically breaks fighting games. The whole point of movement, defending, and specials in fighting games is commitment. Even though hit box has an SOCD cleaner built in and emulators have them built in too, it doesn’t stop games from allowing a down charge and then pressing up to do like a flash kick in SFV without having to release down. That’s how the crossup arcade stick works too.
If people want to use whatever controller they want online and at home, then that’s their business but I do believe there should be a tournament standard at offline events.
Even without the SOCD cleaner, you always have an additional finger that is read to press ANY direction that’s macro’d to a key/button. I mean, there really isn’t an argument to be made.
The issue is also with the developers who allow a gamer to use dpad and analog stick at the same with the gamepads. I can even see issues with dpads being used too.
I prefer doing B, B, N, Db, N, B, Db... feels way more comfortable to me
Anyone who grew up gaming in the 90's arcades was homies with an Aris at their local arcade.
He is legit O.G.
Real talk! 👍🏿
"an aris" atpCap archetypical stoner
On a controller you can use the pad to enter a direction and the analog stick to enter the opposite direction No macros needed.
One guy said said it perfectly on Aris' channel, "I wonder if this is what Amish guys in the 1920s felt like when they watched cars go speeding by" lol, this sums up the entire thing so well, the fgc is evolving, there is no cohesive argument to ban hitbox when keyboards have been around since the dawn of time, it could also be argued that pad should be banned at that point, and everyone can play either one, I guess Devilster should have to use stick right lol? Nothing but gate keeping elitism that will hold the community back
how does gatekeeping hold the community back?
In the matter of "having fun", yes can do whatever box you want to play.
A fair advantage should be given to each contender in a tournament play.
Might as well recommend them HITBOX/MIXBOX as an ideal preferences. Stick been around as an old school feel controller.
I haven't tried stick controller so i would want to know how it would felt if i used it.
Have Devilster used BOX in any tournaments?
@@AIRFGC because it keeps it from growing, in order for it to continue on it needs to get new members, arcades have been dying for years, the fgc should be welcoming new blood, fgc devs definitely seem to feel the same
@@Section8dc of course devs want more players, they're selling a product and want more money, but a community is supposed to be about more than money, but to prioritize quality connections between like-minded individuals.
How does gatekeeping hold the community back?
@@AIRFGC because the community has been dying for a long time, like I said arcade culture is almost completely gone even in Japan, to continue forward the fgc needs to grow, oviously you don't want all the "normies" to take over, and I am definitely torn on them dumbing down fighting games in recent years, but like it or not in order to proliferate the fgc needs new members and gatekeeping will only destroy the community in an effort to keep it "pure", we are already incredibly niche as it is
I'm old and love my arcade sticks but I also got a Hori Fightpad. Depending on the game that thing is easy mode. But Hitboxes and modern Keyboards are on a whole other level.
You can't charge whilst walking forward, everything else in the video i pretty much agree with. I used to play on keyboard and play Urien so i've tested this.
Its true. It is not possible with a standard hitbox or mixbox
@@narimandk6387 In SFV? It's absolutely impossible. I think only SFII had that issue, of games that people still play realistically. SFV's forward plus back socd results in forward, which is reasonable (although, confusingly, they want SOCD to clean to neutral in tournament rules, so who knows what's up there,) but walking charge is not possible at all in street fighters 3, 4, or 5.
@@galtar862 I guess it is possible to some cheating not that bad but almost a game breaking sonic boom and that was why daigo's stick was banned once. it is having two separate set of directional buttons, brianf was talking about it
You can input back,forward,back then hit the button for charge moves to maximize your charge with those moves. There’s a speed difference still, but you can still do the same thing he’s describing
But you cannot push forward and backward at the same time.
@@RanEncounter yeah but without letting go of one of them you aren’t getting the input. It’s the same difference in that case.
@@GazettiSF But you get the constant backwards input. Just let go of forward and you block. You are still charging the move. You really are not making the argument you think you are.
@@RanEncounter if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. you arent getting either. by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing.
@@GazettiSF "if both inputs are being held, the controller and game reads neutral. "
This heavily changes from game to game. Especially when charge buffering is in the game.
" you arent getting either"
Just because it says neutral does not mean you are not getting a charge. I really don't think you understand how different games work.
" by doing the charge input like i said before, you are getting the same charge time that aris is describing."
Again it really depends on the game. If you hold both buttons you get neutral in some games, but you can also map the buttons to not do that.
Even the controllers have different logic. For example computer keyboards you can have a toggle that makes it either neutral, both together or the first/last button pushed. No modification needed.
Devilster is on keyboard too that's why he is so precise
Gotta love the 20 minute electric buzzword that gets thrown out, easy way to spot someone that has no experience with the product or idea what they are talking about haha
As a keyboard player who previously used pad and stick: yeah it's busted. I'm perfectly fine with games patching in nerfs to prevent the 2D charge abuse or other tech. 3s Aris was playing doesn't register hitting both at the same time as a neutral in Fightcade and that's great. I will continue using keyboard/mix/hitbox either way for the speed, precision, and significantly less stress on my hands/wrists, and if they ban me from tournaments I just won't attend.
An easy solution is to prevent faster inputs that are humanly impossible with a pad/stick to be built into the game. All problems solved.
I was a keyboard player and later I switched to DS4 and I use analog stick for movements. The reason why I switched was that one of my finger always managed to press buttons faster than others so doing e.g. EWGF was pain in the ass because it would come out as f n d df df1 or f n d d1 df instead of f n d df1 or doing f fd d db b was horrible when I tried to play as Geese.
I don't think keyboard gives some kind of advantage over other types of controllers maybe only if you do direct and fast movements like fff
@@grinsekatzedecheshire7754 it's good that you're sharing your thoughts when you really don't know what you're talking about lol, pewgf is easier on keyboard because the buttons are right next to each other, and you're in a video where one of the top ranking tekken players explains exactly how a hitbox and kb give huge advantages you chimp
@@igorz4582 your reply got deleted
Good just stop attending now
Keyboard players trying to stay low key right now.
I think these guys have nothing better to discuss after this game is out for so many years... People need something to cry about every now and then.
Keyboard player in the fgc: wow thats cool
If you play hitbox: you cheating filth!
😂😂
@@wildhynagames7911 They miss TTT2
Aris don't know what he's talking about. There is an SOCD cleaner in Hitbox and Mixbox. DIY leverless controllers using Brook boards also has multiple types of SOCD cleaners. You can't input opposite directions at the same time. Default on hitbox and mixbox is "back+forward=neutral, up+down=up".
He's old and doesn't play anymore lol.
To be fair though, i think there could be a valid argument for up down being neutral instead of up
This is wrong. There are certain ones you can buy that have switches for toggling between the 2 different socd "modes", mpress for example. You can also build your own to work that way as well. It's very much possible.
@@Lemon_Force Still has SOCD cleaner. You still can't input opposite directions at once. It just handle it differently. These are the 3 types of SOCD cleaners: "last input priority, up+down=up, up+down = neutral".
People will say shot without even understading this basic thing
Consistency is literally one of the pillars of competitive and hitbox changes the games we've been playing for years.
People who have been playing on keyboard for 20 years would disagree lol
I agree that people on Mixboxes or the similar digital controllers are definitely at an advantage.
However, I think we have to bear in mind that developments in competitive environments always happen, and I don't think the right thing to do is to try to insulate the games from these developments.
Badminton used to be played with wooden rackets, then steel and now aluminium and carbon fibre. Smashes have gotten faster and the entire meta around how to serve has changed as power is more readily available to the best players without it being as tiring or difficult. At no point should Badminton have 'banned' these 'obviously superior' rackets. People who want to remain competitive just got new rackets, got used to playing with them and began enjoying the advantages. The people who refused to could still compete, but they had to understand that they needed to be better by a larger margin to win.
I learnt to serve underhand; and if I wanted to return to playing competitively I'd have to master the backhand serve. That's just the case now.
I think the only issues are 1) the above example took place over some 40 years and the development and implementation of Mixboxes has been nigh instantaneous by comparison, and 2) the manufacturing of the equipment is monopolized by relatively few producers and that means people might be priced out of getting a Mixbox or equivalent.
EDIT: An interesting parallel I thought of afterwards is that the Classic Tetris Competitive scene still requires the use of the original SNES controller and CRT monitors, so you can get competitive environments that prohibit technological progress. At the end of the day, it is down to the individual tournament/league organizers what they will or will not permit.
Plus the biggest improvement that happened in the fgc with SFIV was when usb arcade sticks were being made and there was a competition between a 8 way stick and a square 4 way stick. 4 way was absolutely better because of that square design that it's now standard if your going to own a stick.
The whole argument comes down to "hitbox should be banned cuz it is faster". Inputing two opposite directions at once is only a problem for old games, new games ***NEVER*** allow you to input two opposite directions at the same time, when they code the game they think about this kind of stuff. Being faster is not a good argument since pad is faster than lever and by the same logic it should also be banned, also pad CAN input two directions just like hitbox but inputing one direction on pad and the opposite on analog stick, may not be easy but it's possible.
Personally I think hitbox is better than lever, but trying to use logic to get it banned will never work cuz it doesn't break any rules it's just faster.
found the hitbox scrub
@@kviju I play on stick, but my brain still works so I don't go around regurgitating my favorite streamer opinions.
"my brain works"
proceeds to blame developers for not having the foresight to code a controller thats clearly used by bitches 20 years in the future.
lmao yeah sure bro, your brains working just fine
The way you think and the poor excuses to justify wrongs is disgusting. People like you are the most dishonest ones because you try to bend reality to your favor.
Aris says this and addresses it if you watch the original video. He says that he believes pads are also technically cheating but it wouldn't be wise to ban them because it's the default device that comes with the consoles they use in tournaments and banning them would be further gatekeeping an already niche pool of potential contenders
Brian_f also made a reply to this argument that Aris brought up, disagreeing with a couple of fair counter points about the HitBox and whatnot. Give it a go if you don't know him or if you want even more insight on the subject, it's pretty constructive.
If you really think that of Brian, it's clear that you don't follow him on RUclips or you're not familiar with him and you're failing to see his point of view.
Calling someone a "shill" for criticizing something is like...the opposite of being a "shill", just so you know...because he is openly criticizing the HitBox without any influence but his own experience with it.
I won't let you do him like that ma man, uh uh.
TMM and Aris are the absolute best. They've both been around for donkeys years (whatever the hell that saying means) and they both still state things with 0 bullcrap
Also, Aris' streams are so f***ing funny but you've got to adapt to the chat to survive. It's actually very strict. No essaying, no asking stupid questions, no mocking Aris. Likely to be banned.
“When you show up to a bodybuilding competition and everyone is natty…and then you show up with your hitbox…”
I died
Yes you can do that on a controller and a stick, I do it all the time. There are 4 extra buttons on a stick to use if you play Tekken. I map down, left and right to three of them and thats is how I KBD. On a controller I map left and right to the back paddles. If your talking about SODC, that is banned in tournaments so the argument is stupid.
no you cannot forward dash while charging lol
this is something that was possible in some older games with keyboard, pad (using analog+dpad), or very early batches of hitboxes that didn't have SOCD cleaners, which effectively cancel forward+back into a neutral input at a hardware level
hitbox can be cheap and crossup can be even cheaper but i wish we could stick to like, actual realistic criticisms about the device instead of shit like thinking you can forward dash while charging or people losing their shit over some guy wavedashing with two hands or something
+1 100% agree.
charge partitioning? ruclips.net/video/NKd6UuN_mJs/видео.html
Oh don’t worry, there were a lot of actual criticisms in Aris’ video that isn’t forward dash charging.
That’s a minor counter point lol
Except you could? It got patched out, which is something developers should be coding into their engines, but I think that take is disingenuous.
As it stands, it is literally a corcked bat in a lot of fighting games still. It's fine for non-competitive players to make things as easy as they want, but they need to actually do a better job screening these peripherals for games like Tekken until the code catches up. Once the engine can clean the inputs itself, then who the hell cares what you play on. But it is rediculous to completely ignore the genuine cheating you can still do with pretty much every device except sticks. It doesn't matter if it's already "illegal" to use certain functions, no one is checking and they won't take action unless it's in everyone's face.
I think it's more like pine tar in baseball than a corked bat. There are legal and illegal sunstances to help pitchers get more spin. Umps only check if they think fans are noticing and it screws over pitchers that worked their ass off doing it the natural way.
I get the argument, but I hate this argument because everyone has the ability to pick up the same controller. Even the comparison to using steroids doesn't make sense. If they allow steroids in a competition, and you participate without steroids... that's on you. The same thing with broken characters, there are characters that are wayyyy overturned sometimes, and you see them being used everywhere... so just use them too. Nobody is forcing to play a low tier character. The only excuse I can find is that some players are used to the controller they have always used, and they just don't want to change. But at the highest level of competition, you HAVE to adapt.
Now we're saying stick is outdated? Damn we've come a long way. I remember the '09ers stroking the balltip of the arcade stick, saying it was by far superior to pad. The FGC I tell ya...
Stroking the tip 💀💀💀
It was the late ‘90ers (and millennials) who love the arcade sticks, due to how popular the actual real arcades were at the time.
Pad was very widespread by ‘09.
If u listen closely, u can hear the dinosaurs in the back.
😂😂😂😂
Here we go again, grandpas discussing whether pressing buttons is cheating.
Button-based controllers aren't cheating, sticks and pads are a handicap. Grandpas play on sticks due to legacy skill, console players play pads because that's the controller they have, and that's fine. PC players play keyboard because that's what they have, and that's also fine.
Moving your body to generate one input per press will never be cheating.
Games where buttons allow "illegal" tech (like blocking both sides or sidestep into foreground while crouching) are de-facto bugged and should be fixed. PS4/5 not allowing regular cheap USB keyboards should look towards Xbox and not force people to buy 300$ Hit/Mix boxes to get access to buttons.
Cope harder
The whole left and right button presses at the same time is just plain wrong and is not possible with a Hitbox btw. This input gets cleaned by the SOCD cleaner and registers a neutral input. The controller merely follows the coding that is allowed in the game. If we're gonna address this problem, the game developers need to do something about it.
People are blaming the wrong thing. It's the programming inside the game should take the blame, not the controllers. Pads can already do this type of things possible with an HB, so ban pad?
EDIT: Btw im an Arcade Stick Lever user. I dont even own the hitbox, I just understand how SOCD works. Someone might accuse me of being a HB shill lol. Im not, im a Lever Lover.
If you ask me, yes HB's gives you advantage because of faster inputs, but should it be banned? No. The controllers are just simply evolving. Lever controllers are ancient, it was a thing before I was even born (born in 96).
I mean, the controller itself could prevent it without the software, but they don't want that as it would limit their sales, and people would find workarounds anyway or build their own stuff. At this point I don't think devs care enough to make the ethical decision of coding for/against it. Which can only limit player base. But maybe that will change.
Pads don't really allow you to do it, at least not in a conventional sense. Sure you could hold left on a DS4 dpad and right on the left stick but it's not physically practical. The dpad itself doesn't even allow both directions to be pushed at the same time. So yeah, we can ban the controller and not have an issue with the way the game is coded. Even if we take lay the blame solely on devs and how they coded the game, should we just let these controllers rock until devs manage to code for every variation that stops these things from happening?
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot Im talking about the official HB's that follow the game's standards btw not custom made ones that bypasses it. Those ones are definitely cheating. The Official hitbox controllers are REQUIRED to follow tournament rules, so the regular Hitboxes just follows whatever capcom tells them. The custom made ones for sure I take issue with. Those ones are a problem.
@@Ravemaster620 Practicality doesnt matter, banning something is not based off "Practicality" it's whether you CAN or CAN'T do it. Pads, MB's and, HB's CAN do this, so why pads are not banned then. MenaRD and Nuckeldu (pro pad players) do those tech already. But yes I agree, it's definitely faster than a regular lever controller, that's basically the whole schtick of Hitboxes and Mixboxes.
@@SlaineReigns How would that work with different developers and games? They just stick to what Capcom says and everyone plays along and that's the product they get? Not that that's a bad thing necessarily in this case, I'm just curious.
In protection of keybords.
There exist core moves fore some characters in some fighting games that require the player to input staff like ← ←+↓ ↓+→ → for example before pressing a button or a combination of buttons.
On a joystick those kinds of inputs are waaaaay easier, because you can acompilsh them with a single move of a finger.
Some fighting games, that are not tekken also require you to
actually push a dedicated buttton for a block, making the ability to hold ← and → at the same time not that useful in comparison, if not useless at all.
Im pretty sure tekken has block while moving back but,
You first reason is quite true.
In other fighting games, you have to insert that amount of input to just use the a move, especially special.
In this case, a Joystick would be a useful control item as i have managed to pull of a move with the same amount of inputs in quick succession with a very high possibility to pull it off.
I remember playing a Saint Seiya game with a character special of this input and managed to pull it off after knowing joystick is a movement input as well.
But wasn't the argument not about easier and harder? Because if you're a world class player it wouldn't matter because they would learn how to get over that? Thats what Aris basically said. Its a weak argument. I get that its hard for some players but they're talking about tournaments where people actually don't give a care about what's easier and whats harder in terms of input because the mix,hit,keyboard etc gives an advantage beyond just doing things easier, its an advantage that you physically cannot replicate if you do not have the same tool. Unless I read your comment wrong and you can just ignore this.
@@25thJamzy then, wouldn't they rather recommend themselves to play with mixes and boards either?
Like TMM said, sticks are just an old school feel, i would love to try them.
I can see why people somewhat gets annoyed of player using Box and boards since i just discover myself they have extra directional inputs that lets you access some moves faster.
Idk why would it be an advantage against stick?
Is it because stick has to return to neutral for it to string another direction input.
@@Marleigh_san Well it goes down to tradition for that first part. As mentioned by Lord Aris and TMM we played these games on arcade and by extension stick/pad. They're the tools that were given to play these games and they have limitations such as highlighted, the double input directionals. The games were designed with the idea of using these tools. But now we have tools that can surpass the design of the game. So question it a bit, should we use a tool that overcomes the design for the game in tournaments (Like using a cork bat as Lord Aris mentioned)? Should we use a tool that the game never thought intended to exist? And because of that the design of the game is now flawed. I'm not the one to judge this because I have no authority to so I'll pose that question back to you. Is it fair?
Why it would be an advantage, well that can be summed up by taking into account what the double directional inputs means against stick. What a double directional does is that gives a player the ability to do things that is simply impossible for players that aren't using the same tool to do the same. Blocking is much different with double directional because you can move forward and block much faster just because you can use both movement buttons at the same time, ensuring that you can block at an exact frame from when you stop moving forward. In stick/pad you cannot do that simply because you have to reset to neutral.
There has to be rules. Personally, you should watch Aris' full video because he makes great points on this and better examples. I basically butchered what they said in this comment.
@@25thJamzy it's not simply easier/harder - it's also faster/slower, with a vastly different skillfloor level of execution.
A joystick player needs to move his finger once, twice at most, that is it.
A keybord player needs to input multiple inputs one after another.
Unless you are playing some briandead easy to execute characters - one can argue, that using a keyboard will actually either SLOW you down or even straight up restrict your moveset.
Keyboard is not simply an upgrade - it's a trade off, that requires you to work for it.
Man you did Aris so dirty with that old picture of him lol
If a Mishima mirror match gives an inherent advantage to P1 side, because you can't step left in certain situations only on P2 side, it is not Hitbox that breaks the game but Stick. Hitbox rather, is the controller, which equals the playing field.
"Hitbox rather, is the controller, which equals the playing field"
@@MrBroken030 I hate people like you so much because you don't realize the hypocrisy in your words now that you are not the one with the best controller. I still remember the time in the fgc when everyone was like: "just buy an arcade stick bro"
Now I can just say the same, just buy an hitbox stop complaining
Hitbox does socd cleaning, so you can't actually input opposite directions at once. In general, what is cheating and what is not is determined by what is normal. If the norm was to play with mittens on, anyone taking them off would be considered cheating, even if it's just the sensible thing to do. The hitbox is a better input device, but if someone playing on a microwave claimed that everyone else was cheating, they'd be laughed out of the room.
This being said, games could handle the inputs a lot better, but you certainly can't forward dash mid charge in any reputable games. It's faster to transition between charging and dashing, but due to socd clearing, you get neutral(sometimes the one you pressed last) when pressing both sides at once.
Also pads often don't do socd clearing, so you can use both an analog stick and the dpad to do funky stuff (pressing opposite sides in SFV gives you forward, which leads to pad exclusive mixups)
- Hitbox apologist
When something comes out that completely invalidates something else, generally the smart thing to do is to adopt it as the new standard instead of screaming about it on twitter.
It's like if you insist on playing on a tv remote, then call me a cheater because i play on a normal controller.
Tell that to corked bats in baseball and loaded gloves in boxing.
K I'll be seeing you in bracket with my new macro controller
"Look at the time! Look at the TIME! LOOK AT THE TIIIIIIIMMME!!!"
Okay I agree to most things, but I am geniuinly curious on what the opinion is on the argument, on how advancements on certain things should possibly even be the norm. Since arcade sticks were a default, you have travel time and a much more difficult situation than a gamepad. The game pad has way way less travel time and the general execution is faster. Its still fine to use nonetheless. Then the hitbox came out and is not a step above a gamepad but now the limit is overdone? Why is it wrong to make things easier or more exciting by making them faster. When horses raced and the transition to cars happened, people were saying its unfair how much faster it is. of course it is but that is just the way advancements work. We always strive to make things as optimized as possible. Maybe a bad comparison but I hope you get what I mean. I would like to see this argument to be deducted.
Cars didn't enter horse racing tournaments when cars became the norm.
@@DMatt343 Maybe where you’re from. Just last night my horse raced a Camry and won. (I’m just kidding)
a big staple in fighting games is execution. that's been getting forgotten about more and more as the years go on, games become more lenient, and certain techniques are removed. but execution was a big thing that separated players from each other. the ability to perform at a high level under a lot of stress and still be able to perform very difficult techniques was a big reason why fighting games had a lot of appeal. making execution easier so that everyone can have good execution dilutes that aspect of the game and a lot of players don't enjoy having the skills they worked hard to obtain get undermined because the new players don't feel like grinding that aspect of the game. also making execution easier removes the excitement because it's no longer cool to see someone do a difficult combo if it's bnb levels of easy.
Hitboxes are dumbing down the difficulty. They are not advancements at all to the games.
Walking forward and blocking simultaneously is the antithesis of fighting games
Which you cannot do on Hit Box. Holding left + right does nothing.
@@VRFist but you can be walking forward and instantly press back to block, with no time from going front to back, which changes a character like guile a lot. or you can block a move and instantly ss without having to move your wrist
@@RustyRants cool, which rule did it break again?
@@RustyRants then on this line of reasoning then organizers should just standardize which particular brand to use. Different brands have totally different feelings to them and that will affect a lot of players.
@@RustyRants one, the transition is not instant and using a more effective tool is not cheating. Its your choice waht you play on and if you decide to not play on hit box when it is simply a more modern and effective controller then thats on you dude. Nothing it does is cheating.
For anyone who plays at competition level, earns money with it, and believes mixbox is an advantage, here's a crazy tip: just use it.
The players in the east have adopted and embraced this style of controller, meanwhile over the west we're bitching and moaning. And we wonder why we always fall behind in the FGC.
Dont fighting games sell best over here?
@@juhadexcelsior he's talking about tournaments, in sfv there's just one british evo champion and the rest are ALL asians, even in sf4 times the champions were almost all asians too, mostly from japan
It's the developers fault for jank old code in the engine not being cleaned, but it's also not showing much pride by abusing what are essentially glitches to win a competition. All the world-class players aside from Super Akouma use pad or stick for Tekken, so I'm not sure what you mean. People who have easy mode controllers just don't like being called out. Aris is literally telling people to cheat as much as they want, he's just pointing outwhy it is cheating.
Thats literally scrub mentality. If it's in the game, use it. And if it's not against the rules, it's literally not cheating.
@@aidanklobuchar1798 modded controllers that are being used are, in fact, against the rules. We don't even disagree on using what you can get away with to win. It's just what you define cheating as. A lot of the old-school define it as cheating.
Let's put it this way; I'm not going to pat anyone on the back for bowling near perfect games every game when you're using bumper rails
Completely disagree and no it's not science. The only part of it that could arguably be an immutable law like you two are suggesting is the part where there are milliseconds of disparity between pressing a button and holding back on an arcade stick, even then I think the difference between the advantage of the former over the latter is being vastly overstated - moving a joystick from forward to back happens in an instant. Barring that sticks have the advantage of consistency of hand motions (playing 2P side with a leverless controller is a much bigger ordeal especially with command characters) and the reliability of microswitches being felt and heard with each directional input.
All control methods are viable and you said yourself that the world's best Kazuya plays on a stick, that's not a coincidence and it's not simply down to tradition otherwise all this epic science and objectively observable fact would have produced legions of superior players mopping the floor with that guy. I feel the efficacy of an arcade style controller with a lever is really being downplayed here and I don't care what Reddit or the barely sentient FGC has to say about microseconds of time saved or what's objectively better, most of these players have to remind themselves to breathe manually so I take what the consensus approved opinion is with some scepticism.
Aris' mods are immediate with the shots. I truly love his insight when he's really telling how it is.
great video! love you and love aris!
btw I'm pretty sure if I'm not mistaken that Nuckledu was quoted as holding the left analog stick down with one finger to charge with guile while using dpad to do another input. it's not really the same as free electrics really at all but still an interesting thing to throw in the discussion.
is the thing about mixbox being able to step into the foreground while crouching even true?
I'm pretty sure that's a game limitation not a controller one
I played an psp emulator of tekken 6 before (i know it somewhat feels different but hear me out) and this somewhat exist.
By pressing down which leads you into sidestep or sidestepping into the (depends on the input). Just by holding along the back button, you access your crouch immediately after which i always do in tekken 6.
Background can do it also but not as fast as into foreground.
I don't know about fightstick but i guess what they said is true.
Dpad controller can do it i think.
Does fight stick can't access other direction immediately after a directional input and always have to enter neutral first?
Then that's quite a disadvantage.
any game breaking aspects of all button controllers should be patched out by devs in the first place. the fact that all button controllers provide an "unfair advantage" is already because devs don't program their game accordingly. even the nintendo joycons have directional buttons, and many consoles in the past had them as well. there is also the argument that any input should be or is already mappable to any other button on a controller. The directions on a stick are digital on off switches just like a hitbox controller is, so from a hardware level it is already possible to do these things on stick if you were to dismantle it without touching the electronics. input convenience is not and shouldn't be tournament illegal.
@@drftr6073 Problem is that even with SOCD cleaning, hitbox has scientific advantages. Thumbs and sticks have travel time that is completely eliminated by buttons. This travel time allows inputs by a hitbox player to be impossibly fast vs pad or arcade stick. On hitbox, making a mistake such as "moving your thumb/stick too far" is impossible. On top of that, you cannot software fix the fact that even with SOCD cleaning a hitbox is impossibly faster than a DPAD or Arcade stick.
A ps4 controller has an easy in-game fix to only allow directional input from dpad. Hitbox cannot be policed in the same way, and even if it could the speed of a hitbox is impossible to replicate on a controller or arcade stick.
@@davidburke4101 the physical convenience of button inputs is just optimization. you can't just waggle a 5 inch metal rod that you got for 200$ and call it cheating when people play on anything more comfortable or cheaper. it's obviously faster to have a finger on every input rather than pressing every button with your thumb and index finger.
Mainman, you are such a humble and cool dude. I don´t even play fighting games but i still watch your videos because i really enjoy your personality, stay strong!
By your logic currently P2 is at disadvantage when using the stick. Hitbox and keyboards even those odds and make the matchup fair.
If you're running the 100m at the olyimpics wearing flip-flops instead of the best running shoes money can buy, it ain't the other athletes fault.
Being able to step inside (SSL on 2P after forced crouch) doesn't break the game, it fixes it. Your advantage doesn't depend on one rock paper scissors before the match. Also you can do two opposite direction on a gamepad, just use both the d-pad and the analog stick. SFV players do it for charge characters for years.
Yup, totally agree. I play on stick because it's easier on my hands and I can play for hours without my fingers hurting (pad) or my hand going numb (keyboard) But when I was playing keyboard my execution with Kazuya in just a couple months was unreal. I main Law and I can't dss on keyboard or pad because I get the timing wrong by pressing b,f,f faster than I should because the directions can be pressed faster with these controllers.
i am a hori hayabusa noir tekken edition. i have hayabusa lever but swapped it into sanwa parts. even still if my opponent is using a mixbox i dont mind. its just so happen that they are modern fighters and us are simply the classic one like in tekken if your character has unfair advantage just simply adapt or use that broken character and join the band wagon to even the playing field. what i mean we are in a modern age now that all methods of controler are being used whether its a steering wheel if thats where you are comfortable of using..
these are facts, another fact is that leverless is the future no doubt... unless they redesign the games somehow... so lets all jump on hitboxes so that we at least compete on same devices, period
Well you bring up the Mishima point. I'd easily counter by saying that you shouldn't have an advantage by just having a player 1 or player 2 side so the hit box simply fixes that. So I'd actually say just having player1 side would be cheating because you gwt an inherent advantage from no effort of your own.
Yeah and what happens when you put mishima on his non-dominant side.......
@@makeomengreatagain it doesn't matter, that disadvantage comes from the game, not the player skill.
@@SShaBazzz what if the person on p2 can play better mishima? Do you really think movement is all there is to tekken? Why are there then players winning on p2 side with mishimas?
@@ensar4115 them having better movement isn't the point. The fact that it's an inherent disadvantage is the main problem.
By your logic, hit box isn't really a problem at all because they may have the controller but the person with a Aecade stick has the better fundamentals and movement skill.
@@SShaBazzz I agree it is an inherent disadvantage but my point is, is that tekken isnt all about movement. There are more ways to win in tekken. I think this argument of yours makes no sense because you can't do anything about it. Ofcourse you can bring a hitbox, but for one tiny fault in the matchup you are agreeing to a cheater box who will be used by hundreds of players, and not only for kazuya. The hitbox is not a viable solution at all. This argument of yours sounds like an mma fighter trying to justify his steroid use.
"Look at the size of this clown device"
I laugh hard and instant look at mine🤡
Devilster is a KBD player, his movement is on another level even compared to Pro Jin players
Yes but he also plays with mixbox as well. There is a video of him vs Arslan Ash where he uses mixbox and not controller. He is skilled at all the controllers just so that he can participate at tournaments incase keyboard isn't allowed.
charging while walking forward does not work. the hitbox has a board specifically for resolving impossible inputs.
it is the same as with blocking, the advantage comes from starting your charge the frame you let go of forward, because you're already holding back.
When I see or hear Aris the first things that come to mind are:
"Your comment is trash and dumb to smoke!"
"Chicken on a stick!"
"Harada played the violine in this game?!"
And "unbreakable european grab"
Cool dude
_"We need to get water in his lungs immediately!"_
One thing no one seems to bring up is IF this technology becomes available to everyone, then at which point can it be considered a technological advancement and therefore, how much of the balancing is up to the devs? IDK, it's an interesting dilemma. To me it feels a lot like comparing adjustable mechanical keycaps and a membrane pad.
you can use the D-Pad and the Stick at the same moment on Controller
"BuT tHaT's ImPrAcTiCaL, bro!" 🙄
I have tried it and honestly, it can work but it needs practice
Terrible argument, it's still 10x harder than using a hitbox. Nobody does it.
Aris says in his video that he thinks controllers should be illegal too but it's not practical for accessibility reasons to ban the default controller of the systems the game is made for
@@EdgyDabs47 do you know who knuckledu is? he does that, mhike2stronk does that; also how impractical it is, it's not relevant, it's possible and people do it at the highest level. zzzzzz try again
5:05 Opposite directional inputs were possible on Dual Shock's D-pads and Analog sticks.
You can consistently do 14-15f electrics on arcade stick with much less strain, but pad players haven't complained about that.
he is talking about things which are impossible with stick or controller and are possible with hitbox and etc, not about hardships of execution with different controllers
@@exusiaii3691
I hear you.
I am saying that different controllers have their advantages and disadvantages.
MainMan does start the video saying arcade stick is inferior and Aris believes that game pads should also be banned(before he knew that you can do almost anything on it that you can do on Boxes). So I'm adding more things to think about
@@exusiaii3691
Just an add on in case it gets lost;
You CAN do the same things on a D-Pad that you can do on Boxes.
A basic test;
Have your Right thumb hold Back on the Left analogue, then alternate between forward and down on the D-Pad with your Left thumb. Perfect KBD every single time.
Boxes might have the speed and practicality advantage.
The Street Fighter examples they gave can be done on D-Pad too(4f Super, Crouching Flashkick)
As a pad player who is soon to have arthritis I agree with this point.
I just have a question
Why should it be banned if it's a better standard that gives new player better way to play ?
Why should it be banned if it helps being perfect and developpers don't care about it ?
How is that cheating to use something that has just a better ergonomy ?
And why do we still have this debate since, cross on some pad controllers are straigt up the same thing ?
because it is something that the game was not designed for and breaks the game
FGC Boomers gotta stand united as time passes them by I guess.
How are leverless controllers unfair since anyone can get one? Some are cheaper than a ps5 controller. No one forces you to play on arcade stick. If you refuse to adapt, it's on you and noone else.
In any sport competiters get the best gear they can, instead of complaining others do... lol I don't understand how there's even a debate.
Sticks are a tradition that comes from arcades, something that isn't popular anymore. Consoles and PC's are popular and being used constantly though, that's how the crushing majority of people play, and the necessity that made Hitbox come into reality, "PC players that are used to keyboard, and either want to go to tournaments hosted on consoles, or want to play with friends that play only on consoles" is also still very much present
The reality is that stick owners are a dying breed. There's no reason to start playing fighting games in one except for nostalgia
Had a friend in college who got a hitbox one day and I asked why. He said, “I’m not going to EVO” lmao
The fact the hitbox came out around the time I developed carpel tunnel was a godsend. If the hitbox gets banned I literally could not play fighting games anymore due to the pain I get playing on pad and stick that I don't seem to get playing box. Genuinely hope that doesn't happen would suck for people in the same situation as me. I enjoy doing locals sometimes and banning them would actively hurt my enjoyment so that's been my argument on the matter.
I'm ok with banning socd cleaning but an all together ban I'm personally against.
old post but I gotta comment.
The argument isnt about what you should be allowed to do for fun, its an argument regarding what devices should be allowed in a competitive setup (online rank matches dont count as competitive). Its all about competitive integrity.
They shouldn't allow people with cyborg legs with jet boosters that comes with it to compete in an olympic track and field tournament just because that person didn't have the luxury to be born with a set of functioning legs.
@@番長ほむら Yeah no offense but I can't even argue against that. Comparing actual cybernetic augmentations to make yourself better in a sport is nowhere near the level of buying a controller my good sir lol.
@@番長ほむら Better example would be F1 racing. They allow drivers to customize their steering wheel so they can control the vehicle the best they can.
Nearly +1000 new twitch subs in just a month or two
Congrats father
On playstation you can "swap the sticks", that way you can use the d pad and the right stick for movement very easily
but with that you cant press attack buttons precisely but with mixbox and keyboard you still can
Literally old man yelling at clouds 😂😂😂
The only problem i can see with the argument is that if the idea is to ban Hitbox/Keyboard from tournaments because theyre unfair then why not just ban stick instead, other controllers are superior in every way, why make people play worse on outdated controllers instead of making the better ones the norm?
It depends on the hardware available, same reason controllers were allowed.
Once consoles were becoming the main hardware you play fighting games on, controllers were allowed because it's what people use.
In the end the devs are gonna consider keyboard in mind for the future simply because of the accessibility of one.
As person who suffers from carpal tunnel it sucks trying to play my favorite fighting game with pain is ass. Sure is using a hit box cheating? I guess? Do I need to show my medical card in order to use a hit box? Try to feel that nerve pain it’s awful. Kinda sad that they don’t take consideration about someone’s else hands.
It's not cheating, it's just dumb boomers coping as usual
Are you playing competitive? If no, then this doesn't apply to you as stated in the video: casual/at home you can do whatever. They are talking about standardizing competitive play to a somewhat even play field.
@@DrHKotes what about people who want to go to local tournaments?
I started out with pad, then moved to stick, then Hitbox. I agree when it comes to proficiency: Hitbox > pad > stick.
Though, I think Hitbox should just be the standard controller to use. It's much more comfortable and gives more control over our characters which I think should be the point of designing or using a controller in the first place. But I also understand how it can be disappointing spending so many years on stick only for a new controller to come out, making it easier for newcomers to do things that are otherwise considered feats and a display of dedication and skill on stick or even pad.
It sounds like both TMM and aris don't know about SOCD-cleaning and the fact that daigo had a hitbox that was banned for having multiple buttons for the same direction and not having standard SOCD-cleaning.
technically the pad can press 2 inputs at the same time if you bind the right analog stick
Modern equipment always replaces antiquated gear in competitive settings, it's your own admirable choice to continue to use arcade stick, but it's definitely not worth bragging about, when there are now clearly better options.
It's like these people are scared to be relics of the past. Just because people have found more efficient ways to play the game, without doing something outrageous like turbo button, or clear cheating. Does not mean it is cheating.
This is almost like saying M+KB is cheating because you don't have a narrow range of motion and can turn faster. So what? TMM argument about "On this controller I can step to the left on FC". So what? It sounds like people are finding ways to play the game without being limited by a controller.
@@theminorprophet5132 Because the game was balanced around that and certaing things being very difficult or impractical. The developer needs to take these things into account in future and adjust accoridingly. Might as well get rid of the execution behind electrics, movement etc completely.
@@atuls55 SFV for example made it that you can't hold 2 directions at once. They addressed situations like that and made it that you can't walk and charge for example and people still think they are cheating.
When it comes to a game, I don't think what developers want and not doing what they want necessarily means you are cheating. I mean, if that is the case, then RC in CVS2 was cheating, because they didn't balance around that, yet people thought it was fine. I think it has to be a mix of not doing what was intended and having a very clear advantage over your opponent. I am not committed to this idea, but I am going to go with it for now and if I find any counter examples, I'll change. Hitbox makes Electrics easier, taunt jet upper easier, and makes it that you can sidestep left when you are in FC, for example. I don't think to me that is such a clear advantage that you're now in cheating territory. I think you just found a tool that makes your input more precise.
To be drastic, it's not like it's auto aim in a fps or it's doing something that you have like 100% defense like you can never be opened up or something. So far, all I've seen is that it makes inputs easier, but not easy enough to the point where it's like a macro or something and that's not what the developers intended. To me, that doesn't constitute as cheating because cheating to me would have to be such a clear advantage to point where the game is being played for you.
@@atuls55 lmao your last sentence is such a leap
@@loto7197 No your making a generalization about new equipment. Not all new equipment is a good thing. Electrics among other things are extremely powerful but you always had the argument that they were so hard to do. If they were going to be a lot easier that should be up to the developer and then nerf them accordingly. This was one of the issue with the new characters being so easy and powerful at the same time. Akuma was never as widesread a problem as Leroy/Fahkumram for a reason.
Technically left and right/up and down are possible on a pad (dpad+analogue stick). It’s not practical obviously but it’s technically possible, so we’re essentially arguing over the shape and layout of the pad (in which case they are all different). Obviously it’s not the same thing but on paper it’s just a different shaped controller.
Also, it’s not an unfair advantage at all as everyone is allowed to use these controllers. If you’re at a disadvantage because of your controller you can either change your controller or cope with it!
This is such a boomer outlook. This must've been how folks who drove horse and carriage felt when an automobile passed them by. I still love you TMM
The issue is allowing an automobile in a horse race. That should be a different event.
I’m glad you did post it to RUclips.
false you can input 2 directions at the same time with regular ps4 pad: using d pad and the stick at the same time, and yes players do that: famously knuckledu
My issue specifically with the marduk side of that argument is as a casual player, it comes down to people can play a character because they like it.
Honestly, the sidestep from crouch argument makes it sound like the game is inherently broken and that the hitbox just allows one to avoid that. The issue is with the game, not the controller. I think the tekken scene is better when it isn’t just a matter of playing Rock Paper Scissors to determine if you get the side you want.
On a different note, I don’t think that hitbox will end up killing arcade sticks or anything like that since most people think they’re fun. I wouldn’t be surprised if top player end up almost all switching to either cross ups, keyboards, hit boxes, or something else along those lines.
imagine defending bitchbox and bitchbox users
As soon as I went from my ps4 controller to a keyboard i saw the light. Cant wait to get a hitbox or leverless box.
You can press Forwards & Backwards at the same time on any analogue PlayStation controller using Dpad & analogue.
Based on that logic, you should ban all PlayStation controllers
on a ds4 the dpad has priority over the analogue, inputting opposite directions at the same time never was and issue in modern games
@@aquilesca5tr0 And SOCD on Hitbox does exactly the same thing. What is your point???
@@Propa_Ganda_Panda no, socd on a hitbox allows you to do things like press from down to up without neutral and get down instead of neutral while pressing right+left+down, if socd was handled by the game they could use last input priority
@@aquilesca5tr0 yes, what I said is a fact. Don't go saying no, then sighting another topic.
You cannot press Forwards & Backwards on Hitbox at the same time. Don't backtrack on what you said.
@@Propa_Ganda_Panda you don´t understand the hitbox, the problem is that socd on the controller allows shortcuts that can´t be regulated
IMO, the best way to fix this problem is that FG game developers should include how input register work in their game and add a rule that people cannot change how input works in that. For example, Let us say this game X is released with their own input register format like left + right = left. If you used a controller that changes that default input register, then it should be bannable. If the controller doesnt break that format then it should be okay.
Do people just forget SOCD input cleaning exists? Illegal inputs are literally impossible. These anti-hitbox arguments are actually archaic, it's becoming comical
Hitbox is much faster and precise than stick. Stick is becoming outdated. Hitbox IS a better controller, but it is nowhere near the realm of cheating.
Bro people literally have SOCD cleaners built into their hitboxes on a hardware level. It's already over long before the inputs are received by whichever game.
@@MF_ZORO That's what I'm saying.