Why Tengu Plant Format is UNDENIABLY Better Than Edison Format
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- Follow up to my last video on the subject: • Everything Wrong With ...
My Maxx C Video:
• Does This Card Ruin Te...
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As a reminder this video is subjective its ok to disagree with me but lets be civil in the comments :)
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#YuGiOh #Edisonformat #TenguPlant
You actually have an incorrect timeline: The E3 video about GOAT vs Edison was released March 2021, Cimos History Video came out over half a year later. So the big explosion of Edison from a Format nobody has even heard about to becoming the second biggest Retro format happened way before big youtubers talked about it.
I think the secret of Edisons success is that people were looking for something that's similar to GOAT but with less unfair cards like the trinity or BLS, a bigger cardpool, more archetypes, and decks that actually use the Extra Deck for stuff besides Metamorphosis. At the same time they didn't want to lose the things they loved in GOAT: Good Pacing, nice back and forth gameplay, no hand trap spam etc.
Edison gives you exactly that. Nothing more and nothing less. Just the right amount.
Tengu Plant on the other hand is too fast for our former GOAT fans, also it has problematic cards like BLS (they're tired of it and it's still broken) and Maxx C (everybody rightfully hates this card) On top of that. there's less back and forth because Duels (on average) end much sooner. I'm also guessing that the nostalgia for late 2011 is smaller than for early 2010 because more of the 90's kids who grew up with YGO had stopped by the time Tengu Plant happened.
The timeline probably looks like this:
March 2020: Corona hits the world, Millenials stuck at home discover Retro YGO and start with the most popular one: GOAT.
March 2021: GOAT is starting to become boring for many after playing it for a year. The E3 video has perfect timing (and the YT algorythm recomends it to people following GOAT content xD) People discover Edison and love it.
Late 2021: Big RUclipsrs promote Edison, it becomes grows even more.
2022: People still aren't tired of Edison it seems.
2023: Will people finally have enough of Edison and will another format take its place? I think it's possible, but I don't believe that Tengu Plant will be that format. Maybe something from 2014-2016 if I had to guess.
It's all still the same year. And covid played into it too. The argument im making is that there aren't any problematic cards in 2011. Also the game falls off after like 2014. So 2011 is that format once people catch on to how skillful it is. On issue is bad players will play into maxx c and then say it's unhealthy.
@@tcgrewind "bad players will play into maxx c and then say it's unhealthy"
It is a hostage card. It is unhealthy. The only reason why older players think otherwise is because they're playing slower formats, but everyone knows the game HAS to move on from that. I like older formats too but let's be real even for a second.
@Grayewick older players don't think it's an issue because for most of yugiohs history, it wasn't an issue. No one is making the claim its healthy in modern. But maxx c is far from an issue in tengu plant format.
There's a bunch of formats people seem to try to bring up. MBT advocated for Reaper Format (right after Goats), YugiNoNo for Yugi/Kaiba format (hypothetical format), some say Dragon Rulers or TeleDAD were fun tier 0 formats, I heard people prefer the Qli, Shaddoll, and Burning Abyss trio (just to name ones you skipped in the graph notes) .... but THANK YOU my pick and my most fond time playing the game was Tengu Plant. It truly felt like they balanced the game with that banlist, made everything ever at least viable, and like, the TCG could end right there and it'd be a great time. I have never gotten the same experience since. Sometime in the Xyz era old decks started REALLY biting the dust and from there on things just got more fast and complex. Before that the other synchro formats were like tunning the game until it reached this point.
Edison is a bunch of watered down engines copin. granted it was become diverse given the depth it’s been given, but tengu was always diverse. Even when Dino rabbit and windups were released not too long into the format. It’s sooo diverse that the format is called tengu but isn’t 100% the best deck.
My take is people like saying the word Edison. Believe you me people will be saying tengu more often.
you cannot say that edison is sacky and tengu format isnt cuz thats just insane, they are both sacky. yugioh is sacky in general, esp in these old format with 1 ofs everywhere and ridiculous banlists that dont keep certain cards in check because they either just came out or no one knew how to break them yet. if your opponent gets greedy and makes a huge board and you dont open any handtraps they just run away with the game unless you counter sack them and draw the 1 card that can clear an established board before they kill you. what is monster reborn if not a sacky 1 of. bls is at 1 and you are trying to say that edison is the only sacky format. deck specific 1 ofs too (debris, 1for1, avarice, card destruction) billy brake himself admitted that he won both YCSs in plant format because he drew the nuts basically every game. the famous game 3 he bricked at columbus was winnable because his opponent bricked too (this isnt to take away from billy but he didnt win off pure skill, you have to be a little lucky even if youre the best).
and please stop using yourself as a source on your outlandish claims cuz it doesnt really prove anything ("i beat dark world with dragunity one time so its not a problem", "i made a tier list ranking all the decks so that means the format is diverse")
"dustshoot is not a problem in 2011" you are on crack
Yes every format is "sacky" to a degree... but 2011 has very few blow out cards and a lot of generic counterplay to the blow out cards. While edison does not I gave pretty clear examples. With 3 effect veiler, maxx c, dd crow and solemn warning I wouldnt consider debris dragon a sacky one of.
Idk what claim you felt was outlandish. My tier list just shows the potential decks otherwise there isn't a tier list for this format. There is no other list to reference so I use my own. I also built the largest library for this format. So I think its fair to say I have grounds to speak on the viability and diversity of the format. Especially considering the 6 years of work spent on it. If you know a better source by all means. I also feel like I'm far from the only person who says 2011 is diverse. Id say our entire community feels this way.
Additionally your key word is "gets greedy and builds a big board" In other words while situations can arise where you get overloaded by sub optimal play more times than not that play is considered greedy because there are plenty of punishes. Everything has counterplay in 2011 its very healthy. Give the format a shot and you'll see it. Otherwise that's cool too man no need for salt.
Imagine listing two very conditional cards like Reborn and BLS and thinking you are making a good point.
The only really valid point is Dustshoot for hand knowledge basically Forceful Sentry, an insane card.
I am not sure how big an issue Dark world is but they wouldn't play BLS normally right? Or would they with Veiler (or Utopia? Giga-Brilliant??? Where is the light monster?)
I need to look at the card pool but I need to see if Ceruli is legal for triggering secondary effects of Sillva etc.
Trance Archfiend I have a feeling wasn't until later on right?
Anyways the deck seems interesting but also incomplete.
Okay I looked it up and Order of Chaos is a little later right, apparently where that card is from.
So yeah, Dark Worlds are missing one of their key cards as well, Trance Archfiend.
@@scythermantis what are you talking about
@@tcgrewind yeah but a lot of your takes on edison I feel like you don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to the current meta.
I really like Format Comparison Videos like this one, because they provide great insight into the gameplay of the Metas at the time and encourage discussions!
It's also always great to learn new stuff about TP Format and reflect about some of the legal cards in Edison.
Random thought:
The Slide you showed at 20:28 and talked about for over 10 Minutes can actually be interpreted in a totally different way. To me, it shows a Meta where (almost) every powerful card has multiple staples that counter it, which is a very healthy and positive thing in my opinion. So seeing all the possible interactions in the picture was pretty cool to be honest.
About Floodgates: Of course Edison has 2 copies of Royal Oppression and most people (including me) aren't a fan of that. But at least it has a cost to and dies to any removal you throw at it. So even a deck like Quickdraw, that rely almost purely on Special Summoning, can deal with it quickly thanks to its 3 copies of Ryko or Caius.
Another good aspect of Opression is that it affects both players. That means that not every deck can play it unlike Maxx C, which is always at least neutral in card advantage if chained correctly and has very few ways to be negated.
And Maxx C is at 3 in Tengu Plant. Just like Skill Drain, a card that is almost as strong as opression and much harder to out. On top of that, Vanity's Emptiness is also at 3 (eventhough it rarely sees play). So I really don't get it if Tengu Plant Players complain about Opression.
PS: Fuck Trap Dustshoot. Getting a hand rip + full hand knowledge is just OP. Wish it was banned sooner :(
Maxx c feels healthy in the format because it prevents crazy extensions and slows play down a bit. Basically providing a mix of potential explosive turns and grindy gameplay. Additionally there are plenty of decks in 2011 that see no impact from the card. So the more combo you go the greater risk you take. This also helps rougue decks stay up in pace with the meta since every deck has access to 3.
Like I said on oppression it just has to resolve once and its probably game. Maxx c isn't that big of a tempo swing. Example being if you make a synchro with the intent of outing a monster on your opponents board. Then they usually +1 off the draws but they will -1 from losing a monster in battle phase.
Decks that abuse oppression have ways to play through it (vayu, large normal summons,dmg step hand traps.). So they can still special to a degree.
Vanities emptiness doesn't see play even in modern iterations of 2011 bc its way too fragile of a card. It also hard locks special summoning meaning the tempo swings arent as big. 3 mst feels way more healthy for stoping floodgates than 1. In addition that other forms of destruction out Vanities while oppression needs mst. Basically if you have to wait to resolve a trap card/ryko to out oppression you are probably far enough behind to just lose. It's like 2 at least free turns of play for the player that resolved oppression. They can also use caius to out set rykos and such at this time.
Idk Maxx c and Vanities in a vacuum look way worse than they actually are. It's why I just reccomend for Edison players to try the format. Bc its very eye opening when you see how underwhelming those cards actually are this format.
Maxx C isn't a big deal since the decks can pass and will most likely be fine. Of course there are scenarios were Maxx C will decide the game but that can be said for any decent card.
Also can't really compare Maxx C to Oppression since with Maxx C your opponent can still decide if they want to continue and on top of that you have to know when to Maxx C.
With Maxx C you often have a ton of interesting decisions because it's not a matter of "did I draw interaction so that I can slam it", rather it's a matter of when do I go for it, which matters in baiting your opponent to extend more. Your opponent also has to be aware of the card and prepare for it. Preparing for it in Sept. 2011 is oftentimes unproblematic.
Like I said you can oftimes pass if you account for Maxx C instead of just "going for it" and the problem goes away after you pass. With Oppression there usually is no baiting. It's slamming the card and the problem doesn't go away after a turn.
I literally don't get the hate for Maxx C in Sept. 2011 and I firmly believe that it's due to inexperience with the format.
@@YGO_Renaissance I just played in yesterdays Tengu Plant Tournament with my Doppel Synchron Deck and got rekt by an Agent player with 3x Maxx C three games in a row. Whenever I got hit by it my board was Junk or Quickdraw Synchron and that was it. I passed turn twice and got my weak board destroyed twice and once I played through it and got my good board destroyed. Game 2 was against Gravekeepers btw so yay, I had a lot of fun...
You must be inexperienced with Edison Format. It's slow enough that Decks using Opression won't OTK you the following turn 99% of the time, mainly due to the fact that they can't special summon themselves but also since there are way less blowout cards (no BLS, Grapha, Hyperion etc). The only deck that can somewhat play around Opression is Vayu but it's very easy to side against that deck since it needs the grave to do literally anything.
To summarize:
Opression: Cant be used turn 1, Can't be played by most decks, Restricts both players, Has a cost, Is semi-limited, Dies to any removal, Chance of being OTKd the turn after it's activated is less than 5%
Maxx C: Can be used at ANY point, Can be played by almost any deck, Either ends your turn or gives your opponent huge plus, Unlimited at 3 copies, Only a few very specific traps can negate it, Chance of being OTKd the turn after it's activated is maybe 33%
@@tcgrewind I just played in yesterdays Tengu Plant Tournament with my Doppel Synchron Deck and got rekt by an Agent player with 3x Maxx C three games in a row. Whenever I got hit by it my board was Junk or Quickdraw Synchron and that was it. I passed turn twice and got my weak board destroyed twice and once I played through it and got my good board destroyed. Game 2 was against Gravekeepers btw so yay, I had a lot of fun...
To summarize:
Opression: Cant be used turn 1, Can't be played by most decks, Restricts both players, Has a cost, Is semi-limited, Dies to any removal, Chance of being OTKd the turn after it's activated is less than 5%
Maxx C: Can be used at ANY point, Can be played by almost any deck, Either ends your turn or gives your opponent huge plus, Unlimited at 3 copies, Only a few very specific traps can negate it, Chance of being OTKd the turn after it's activated is maybe 33%
And if you wanna say that Doppel Synchron is just a deck that loses to Maxx C and I should play another deck: No. It's 2011. I wanna special summon. If I wanted to normal summon only I'd play GOAT Format Warriors.
@@Brolaub you are playing the deck that gets hurt the most by maxx c. At that point you run the risk. There are plenty of decks that have better stopping points that special summon heavy. Karakuri for example. When it comes to doppel synchro it has a high ceiling but you run the risk via deck choice. You can also still play well around it we had a doppel synchro player make top 4 of the last tournament.
Tldr poor deck choice vs maxx c and probably poor play.
Can someone explain to me why aren’t custom formats more popular? Even tengu plant has it’s fair share of bs and there are a ton some decks that got hit on the banlist a bit too hard.
But that’s so easy to fix with a custom format and you could make tengu plant + which is literally just tengu plant but now it has 1 more deck. Or if a deck is discovered to be tier 0 (which I don’t expect will ever happen for tengu plants btw) you could fix it in an instant. How many times did Konami based its banlist decisions on the business around it? Custom formats aren’t biased cuz the only goal is too make yugioh more enjoyable.
It's because that would be too difficult to sanction. And for people to get on board for.
Perfect example for this was newgioh. ARG tried to create a custom goat format with some newer cards added and certain cards banned. Delinquent duo was banned and the format had cards like tour guide and caius added to it along with some other things. It was actually very popular when it 1st came out. I played in the 1st neegioh tournament at an arg event in edison nj which had a shit load of people play in it. The problem was again it was a custom format where thinga were constantly being added and changed so it was hard for people to follow or get into. Gage actually posted a video about it right after the event to try to get people into it but it never caught on
Tengu plant has that ingredient that edison is missing
Ima be honest here: the reason why I dont really like tenguplant is because it feels like the format doesnt allow much room for fun decks, due to most of the fun decks either only winning via generic power cards or losing to generic power cards, aka 3 solemns, up to 6 handtraps, BLS, rai oh and many more. Only really the best decks can properly stand their ground against those cards, be it flamvell, Scrap, Nordic or many more, all those cant really deal with maxx c, let alone warning + rai oh or whatever combination of power cards.
I think you should consider taking a deeper look. We literally had Archfiends win a tournament in the tengu plant discord. Sometimes it takes proper deck building for example karakuri struggle vs some of those cards you mentioned but my recent topping list mained 12 outs to thunderking. I personally believe (and tournament results have proven) That you can play virtually any deck in tengu format and make it work. Theres a guy who has been spamming jurrac in every event and recent got 3rd place. Clever deck building solves everything and theres counter play to everything.
12:08, this point right here is exactly why im a bigger fan of tengu over edison. The game play and card pool in edison at the top end is just....boring? All the interesting decks arent quite strong enough until you go up a year and now you have idk 10+ decks that are all different and can do well.
@@W_Sir_Morpheus Cry more
@@PassTheQxp 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I am a simple man.People around me play edison, i play edison.
Completely unrelated to Tengu vs. Edison. If you go about your life with this kind of mindset, I wish you the best of luck 😂
@@YGO_Renaissance true, following people around mindlessly is not a good idea.
I do distinguish choices such as the retro format chosen to real important choice such as living a sober life to preserve our environment when everybody around keep living business as usual without looking at what science says.
I get what you're saying but with the limited time we have being alive, I'd argue it's also fairly important what we do in our well earned free time. So I always go for the things I enjoy the most and not what everybody else does.
Thankfully, Tengu format is gaining more popularity in Time Wizard format. So Konami is aware and allowing this like they are with Edison and GOAT.
I think both formats are very strong. I do see your points with Tengu, I also respect points for Edison. I enjoy both a lot. I agree that there's more to do functionally in tengu which is nice. but I also don't think a lot necessarily is better then a little. Goat, for example, is a very resolved format that all but forces every deck to run a slew of staples before they can consider other options so it feels more distilled and uniform but I still think goat format is incredible, focused, and very skillful. I really think it just comes down to preference. All 3 formats mentioned in my comment are outstanding though no question.
Tengu has way more decks and variety but it’s under played and I think It shouldn’t be named tengu plant as yes it was the most prominent card then but the format is so much more
I still remember when bls was taken off the ban list. the community blew up that day haha
My friend had just made a token with a secret one earlier that day. He still feels bad to this day. XD
Been seeing this video floating around and I just never cared to watch it till now. And I gotta agree with a lot of things you said. I hate that we don't have hand traps to counter play. It's annoying when you're making all the right moves and some bs happens to you like e3's video. I wish the tengu comp was higher where I'm at or I would be playing it
I play a lot of Edison online and go to my local SEP 2011 format, I don't really like the chaos decks in 2011 dealing way too much damage out of nowhere, I've found Edison to be not too fast but not too slow and I like teaching people Yu-Gi-Oh in Edison format
The three decks I run are chaos piper, dragunity and gravekeeeper
Idk I feel like that explosiveness is few and far between. I think it's at the perfect amount. But to each their own.
I just got to the 'takes' section of the vid and yeah, there are outs to it, but I don't like the damage output of the chaos engine getting tons of damage
Edison decks I run are assault, remove brainwashing, vayu turbo, quick draw dandy, chain burn, counter fairies, machina and I haven't had too much trouble against Caius and ryko
Yeah remove brainwashing works in both formats but still
I agree with a lot of this, my reasons:
1: INFERNITY
2: EFFECT VEILER
3: XYZ MONSTERS
4: NO OPPRESSION/OTHER B.S.
but just liek opression, maxx C fucks over so many decks that need 2 special summons to get going. i really hate maxx c being a thing, it would be so good if it was limited to 1 or forbidden
Disagree and this is from someone who is an Infernity devotee.
For one thing, Debunk is a card.
For another, endless special summon spam on Turn 1 with no counterplay isn't healthy or interactive or skillful.
@@FlowKom maxx c doesnt fuck over many decks in 2011, that happens later because you can stop. Yeah, from time to time you need 2 special summons, and then maxx c is basically a pot of greed which is annoying. But it isnt more, ot is then similar to triple tactics, a conditional pot of greed which is really strong in some situations, but also with the potential to brick.
The only decks who have big problems is stuff like fabled and doppel warrior because they special summon many small monsters, aka when they stop they usually loose their entire board. But that are like 5% of all the available decks.
Like tbh., i hate maxx c, it is the most bs card which was ever created. But in 2011, it wasnt broken yet.
@@peredurxiv9174 The fact that you someone can make you draw your entire deck and lose with Maxx C says a lot about the current state of the game.
I really like E3 Yu-gi-oh, but when I heard Keagan say "There's no counter play to maxx c until called by the grave is released." I knew it was going to be a tangent of bad takes. In reality, the presence of hand traps gives much more validity to running cards such as Debunk, Dimensional Fissure, Macro Cosmos, and to a lesser extent Divine Wrath . Also, just the fact that Oppression and Cold Wave are gone make Tengu Plant format better than Edsion IMO.
Amen! (Herald of orange light also works) I don't have a personal gripe with him or anything. I just think you should put time into a format before blatantly shit talking it. When you have a large retro audience and you are making clearly flawed takes, it has an impact. He doesn't have to like 2011 but it's evident he hasn't played much of it. Yet he still shit talks it frequently. At that point youre just intentionally driving people away from a format you don't understand or play. Which ultimately hurts the community as a whole. So I just don't appreciate the damage he's done/doing to a format I wanna grow. Especially when considering the timeline I put in the video. Many Edison players haven't played 2011 and watch his content.
Alway put out your opinion even if you think it will bother some people.I’m deciding which format to play and videos like this help people like me.
ay man its quite a few months later and I still feel strongly about this. I would highly encourage tengu format. It is incredible.
I've spent this last year really deep diving into retro formats, really putting a lot of time into each one, and I can confidently say that unfortunately the most popular retro formats are not the most fun or healthy. Goat, Edison, and HAT are all fine formats and I would even classify all of them as A or B tier formats, but none of them are S tier. That honor in my opinion belongs to Tengu Plant Format with a strong consideration for Meadowlands (Mar. 2013) and Charleston (Jan. 2015).
When you approach it from a gameplay pov opposed to a "what's popular?" pov things change lol. Unfortunately not many people take the time to think about things like that.
i agree with tengu plant,but meadowlands is worse than hat,best deck is mermail by far, 3 atlantean dragoons with moulinglacia is nasty. let alone storm + 3 mst + 3 marksman.
@@jiara5219 Meadowland for me feels like a worse Miami or Fire Water format. All three formats have similar deck choices but I prefer Fire Water over the other 2
As someone who played a ton during the Charleston format, my main issue with the format was that it was way more hostile to rogue decks than the formats that preceded BA/Qli/Dolls.
Technically, iirc Edison format is like the DS game Reverse of Arcadia, Tengu Plant is like DS game Over the Nexus? I loved both.
But if I have to chose between the 2, I definitively prefer Edison. The game is slower in Edison, which makes more stuff usable. You could pretty much play anything in Edison and have a fun time. Tengu is a more explosive format, it's the start of handtraps, 3x Vanity's Emptiness, 3x Skill Drain and the return of BLS is also a thing to be considered here... just more sacky overall. It's not all fun in Tengu.
While in Tengu era the handtraps and interruptions don't necessarily break the game (yes, Maxx C was fine at the time), it is the start of the game turning more towards preventing your opponent from playing via negations as opposed to simply trying to protect your stuff. In Edison we simply got to play back and forth Yugioh. In Tengu though: 2x Solemn Warning, 3x Veiler, 3x Emptiness, 3x Skill Drain... yea... I'll take 2x Royal Oppression, 2x Skill Drain, no Veiler, no Solemn Warning over that, thank you.
I like the bigger card pool of Tengu of course, but as a playing experience Edison takes it for me. It's simpler, less archetype centric, less sacky, more diverse and both players mostly get to do their stuff.
At the end of the day though, both are way more fun than playing modern Yugioh meta. It's just, if you factor in competitive gaming, Edison is a bit more fun than Tengu. If you have a friend circle where you agree to leave out some of the problematic cards via gentlemens' agreement then the bigger card pool of Tengu can offer a more fun experience. But then it's not really Tengu format, is it. :p So yea.
veiler is one of the most healthy cards in tengu also no one plays vanities because its not very good in historical tengu. Skill drain is only good in a couple decks as well. As stated in the video there are far more cards in edison that lack counterplay opposed to tengu. Tengu literally has counterplay to every card. Also very few decks set up negates the ones that do are niche and have drawbacks. The gameplay certainly isnt negation focused. That being said your preference is your preference man. I would just encourage taking a deeper dive in the format. Or checking out my recent Debunking tengu propoganda video it may help clear the air on some of your statements.
I feel like that's like saying Ash Blossom is one of the most healthy cards in modern Yugioh because without it, every game would be decided on turn 1. Now, it's just those games where you don't draw her~. And that's actually entirely true, she is "healthy" in that sense - but that isn't really good advertisement for what the state of the game is: the requirement to be lucky enough to have any handtraps in your starting hand to be able to fight back as the turn 2 player in any way I view as a bad thing and as a sign for a game, that is in fact not healthy. An analogy: the duct tape holding a car together is "healthy" to keep the car together - but I'd prefer a car that holds together without that duct tape >.>
I don't think I require a deeper dive - I played Yugioh since Starter Deck Kaiba vs Starter Deck Yugi and played it nonstop until Zexal Inzektorz, Wind Up, Dino Rabbit etc. After that I came back every now and then for small periods so at least until xyz era I know the cards. I played and remember the formats in question - it was my most active time in Yugioh. I simply disagree with handtraps being the healthy sign for the game you make them out to be. In my opinion, if handtraps suddenly became a necessity, it's a sign the game took a wrong turn. If you say that point was passed in Edison, I disagree.
Yes, it is not as massively broken as Ash, Called By etc etc imply regarding the current game. However, if I have to choose between a game where you're only competitive with Veiler (which your statement of her being one of the healthiest cards implies) vs a game that is evidently competitive and even more diverse without it, I pick the latter. Basically, that's what's happening with Ash, Called by, DRNM, Evenly etc etc here: I prefer a game that is not broken where I don't require such tools, so here I am.
I'm midway through this video after watching the first video. Last video, I had to force myself to keep from commenting midway through it and listen with an open mind. My take, as of midway through this video, I think Edison vs September 2011 is just up to preference. I think some people prefer the "unfinished" feel of Edison. I think there's merit to a wider pool of generic cards for deck building in 2011. I think Edison has a sizeable handful of unfun cards, but I think 2011 has a faster pace than some people retreating to retro formats are looking for. I will admit, September 2011 has my heart, it is the format where I first decided to enter competitive yugioh. I just think Edison has a certain appeal to a large group of people, and I think that's okay. People get bored with anything given time, and those players will move onto 2011 when they do. People will also get bored of 2011 at some point. You have convinced me, personally, to explan my horizons and play more than just one retro format. I think thiis strategy of "going negative" like in politics will turn people off of the format though, they won't listen objectively. I salute you for your well thought out video, your extensive playtesting, and your dedication to the September 2011 format. I think this has inspired me to build September 2011 in paper as well, as I said the format has my heart and these videos reminded me where I came from.
Yea this was my last Edison video. I'm glad you are down to explore the format. Join our 2011 discord we do remote duel tournaments if you're interested in using paper cards.
You're complaining about e3 yugioh saying that 2011 wasn't better than Edison. I'm sorry but first off, the two formats are completely different, Edison feels a lot slower, especially because you have to play against those power cards with much less combo potential. Compare playing firedog to darkworld, there's clearly an abyss of difference there. Also, clearly e3 yugioh would react in a negative way, you're literally not promoting 2011 format, you're just reinforcing that edison is worse than 2011 format. I don't understand why you're doing that, you may as well argue that 2011 is better than the eternal format or smth. It's senseless and it makes it seem as if you genuinely don't care about a format being good but edison is just bad.
E3 has spent a long time promoting edison, and you're coming along and being incredibly obnoxious about a format which you clearly can't play because you don't understand why people enjoy it. Of course he's going to respond in a negative way.
Furthermore, because you're trying to promote 2011 in such a negative way, you're going to push anyone who watched these videos away retro formats whether they'd love 2011 or not, simply because you're just being so rude about a format they enjoy.
I'm strictly talking about someone with a large following intentionally trying to damage the growth of a format they haven't played. I dont even have a gripe with e3 I just didn't like how he handled those situations. My main point is Edison and 2011 are very similar, synchro focused 5ds era retro formats that are skillful, diverse and balanced. Edison is strictly worse than 2011 in my opinion. Again your beloved e3 made a video exactly like this one talking about why Edison is better than goat format and those formats are completely different as well. I literally copied his title and thumbnail lol. Goat was mega overrated when he made that video and edison is mega overrated as I made this one. So if you're gonna get salty with me for saying Edison is bad and 2011 is better. You gotta also go flame e3 for saying goat is bad and edison is better.
@@tcgrewind I've not played goat or edison, I have played 2011, and I have to tell you that the eternal format is so much better than 2011. In 2011 you have so many unfair power cards that just stop decks, and most decks aren't even complete. 2011 format is similar to edison insofar as everyone says every deck is viable and yet tournament results done reflect that.
Also keep in mind that when e3 made his video he was correct insofar as goat format had some serious issues and edison felt like goat but far more balanced. You're simply just giving a bunch of reasons why most people's favourite format is bad and why your format is good. How about, if your format is so good, just prove the format is good? Which for reference it isn't compared to formats like the eternal format which doesn't contain sacky one ofs, has many playable decks, requires a brain to play and has a lot of viable counterplays.
@@tcgrewind and as I said, by shitting on edison youre only going to make people not want to play 2011, because you're so hostile towards every other format that it's like you're jsut trying to offend people for playing edison, which clearly isn't helping your cause. 99% of the issues in edison are also very much issues in 2011, so if you want to promote 2011 format then don't say its better than edison because edison has issues.
@@ruairidhwilliams3009😂😂😂😂 what lol
Feelsgoodman to have finished archetypes, to have badass cards like Trish, Tour Guide, Maxx C Veiler and many more. Also feelsprettygoodman to have more layers of interaction thanks to counterplay like Maxx C and Veiler, and to have more decks just in general.
Sept. 2011 lets goooooo
I wanted to look into retro formats and personally, I loved goat and when I looked at Edison, I felt like the decks looked kinda awkward. The only deck I felt like whole was Ancient Gears. Maybe it's because I started competitively in 2012 and was use to Heros and Plants at JunkDopple from that time and Edison felt like a transitionary period to that era and TSHD was so impactful I was bummed with Edison.
Well 2011 sounds like the format for you :) that or even September 2012 isn't bad!
The problematic card in this (and a lot of retro slow formats) is Dustshoot. If you set it turn 1, you have 5 or 6 turns of hand knowledge. And i've seen many games that were decided or got super grindy in Tournament of Tournaments, just because of Dustshoot.
Yea it happens but so far I'm the one whose been hit with it the most and I still don't feel like it's an issue. But it's part of all retro formats so it's tough. 🤷
@@tcgrewind Yeah, i felt it every time he flipped that abomination of a card on you. Tengu is my favorite retro format since it's fast enough to be enjoyable and you have so much strategic choices to make.
Ah that shit is still legal in Tengu lol?
Well imagine thinking Monster Reborn is a problem when Dustshoot is around
Personally I think Return from the Different Dimension is really busted but in a cool fun way not a gay lame way
@@Marassandar plenty more to come ;) I can still win through it though.
Is dustshoot legal in tengu format?
Phantom of chaos can also be countered by compulsory evacuation device and book of moon. Both of which are also common side deck cards. It's a bit like modern format
I'm about 17 minutes in and honestly I had a pretty similar timeline to you. I think your reasoning for why Edison got so popular is pretty accurate. I would also note that I can remember a lot of people already knowing about Tengu Plant format, at least when I started exploring retro formats around 2018 (the top 5 were probably Goat, Tengu Plant, HAT, Dino Rabbit (March 2012), and maybe like Dragon Rulers). So I think people spent more time on Edison (like in History of Yugioh's case) because they wanted to show people how diverse it is. Whereas people already seemed to know about Tengu Plant format and people really like it. Therefore, spending multiple videos on it would probably not accomplish as much if they are pushing a format that people already play. That's my take at least. Liking the video so far. Might add to this comment as I continue watching.
You talked about Ryko and Caius being really annoying and they definitely are. However both have been falling a little out of favor recently. Ryko is way down and Caius was finally not the most popular main deck card in Deck Devastators over this last weekend.
Royal Oppression fucking sucks and I wish it wasn't in Edison. I also hate that the format is shifting to be so Blackwing favored. Deck Devastators had 140+ players preparing for it and the deck still won the tournament (though it dropped from 4 top 8 slots in RBET4 to just 1 at DD1).
I think that's the last edit I will make. I love both formats and I think both have their flaws. But the good heavily outweighs the bad for both. I'm just happy that retro yugioh is getting the love it deserves.
I think people knew of the format but hard generalized it. I've heard hella people say "tengu plants is the only good deck maybe agents" when I know it's 10× more diverse than any other format due to plants and agents being actually pretty fragile. They are both strong but there are a ton of decks equally as strong as them in the format. People just gotta explore.
Been trying to get more friends into tengu era. But like he mentions most fear the format and regurgitate the keegen lines. He also hit the nail on the head about the format being more of a responsive meta. Experience players never tend to make the first push.
Yeah, unfortunately, there are a few content creators that have directly stunted tengus growth.
Yeah so I dont think that Sep 2011 is really the better format. I think the deck variety of both formats is nice but both formats have their ~5 good meta decks and the rest is more gimmicky/rogue. For example, if I look at decks like your cloudian synchro, this deck is a straight up a downgrade when compared to tengu plant. Sure it is not bad and a good player might win games with it but if you take two equally skilled players I doubt that the claudian version will perform better, especially on a tournament level. The same is true for a lot of other decks like Scraps, Dragunity, Blackwings, X-saber etc which are all playable in the format and have a chance to win against the meta but are overall just worse when compared to the likes of TenguPlant or Agents. I also think that both formats have their own share of sacky card combinations or problems. I don't like Trunade/ColdWave/Storm being all legal in edison format but I also don't like having 3 MST + Storm legal. This creates this weird dynamic were it is actually better to set two S/T to not get blown away by one of the 2-3 MSTs in the main but at the same time creates the problem that your opponent's storm is a +1. Maxx C also sees no real counterplay in game 1. You either hope your opponent does not have it or you try to bait it (which is difficult against a good player). BLS, Reborn, or a well-timed Trishula are also broken cards that can end games on their own while SkillDrain and vanitys emptiness can ruin the day for a lot of decks similar to royal oppression. After playing both formats for several years my feeling is that both formats are fairly similar in terms of deck variety and sackiness. Both formats are a lot of fun but also have their flaws.
As someone who loves Edison, it’s extremely similar to 2011 from what I’ve played. Your point of anything works in 2011 is the same for Edison. It’s a young retro format which takes a lot of time to flesh out the best decks and new decks discovered. Goat is filled with problem cards where Edison has like oppression and dustshoot. I haven’t played too much 2011 but the explosive game play difference from Edison to 2011 is what really grabs retro format imo. No one wants massive amounts of huge fields and explosions at very little resource usage. In that manner, the Edison is closer to goat than to 2011 just newer and different cards. But so many retro formats are awesome.
I definitely dont think any deck works in edison. I can bust out literally anything in 2011 edison has a much tighter card pool.
@@tcgrewind certainly a tighter card pool. It’s been proven time and time though, that random conglomerations of decks are viable in Edison. Tournament results reflect popularity of good decks rather than people taking chances with unknowns. I would say the biggest consensus that can be garnered by popular formats is the love of extra deck accessibility. Between metamorphosis, synchros in Edison, and extra deck in 2011, and many beyond that. Players love the availability of extra decks to extend plays while having a main deck that is not oppressive to plays. While Edison does have oppression, it’s effects on the format are not nearly as determined as you make it seem. Certainly a bad card to have but all formats have bad card with goat having the most bad cards.
@@ma.2099 edison tournaments have random decks in the pool at every rbet but the same 10 are the ones that top. its still diverse but the card pool in 2011 closes the gap between meta and off meta incredibly. Nothing feels unplayable in 2011.
@@tcgrewind You honestly don't believe that.
@@mulesa101 just look at tournament stats you can move 3 cards around and call it something different but at the end of the day it's still blackwings, Zombies, heros, lightsworn ect. Idk how people can look at it and see something different. In 2011 the decks are vastly different because it's actually diverse.
I love both edison and tengu format. I think that tengu is a more balanced format but edison is a more fun format.
Ay it's whatever you get out of the formats man. I like being able to play a different deck every week and figuring out how to improve new strategies. I think that diversity is far more prevalent in 2011 but to each thier own! Glad you play both!
More balanced? No. Maxx c exists and automatically kills that format entirely.
@@Statistic189 wtf? Maxx c is not even mained in most decks.
@@MrRoseoffire literally just saw the same guy make the same comment 6 months ago on another comparison video, actually delusional moron trying to sound smart. Insane to me how much brainrot is involved with some of these things, imagine thinking maxx c is format defining or gamebreaking in 2011 lmao
@@Statistic189Did you watch the video because he even mentions your exact comment made by other people.
not sure if its been covered as ive only just found you. but have you discussed optimization of the deck with future knowledge in place ? ie 3 upstart ect
Welcome to the channel. But no that's not super relevant in this video when comparing the 2 formats. Upstart is at 3 for both.
The game needed better staples that included some negation, and tengu plant format provided that imo. Edison is missing something that allows easier counterplay to certain cards like absolute zero and frogs. Edison feels stale because of that imo. I wish tengu format was more popular. Ive been playing edison format for a week now, and I can already tell it's missing something. There are no main deckable staples that counters a lot of the top decks and strats, and you just have to outplay something like frogs to beat it. Like you have to not put anything on the field that monarchs can punish, and then wait till you have the cards to otk them.
Bro I didnt even see the video and I posted all this stuff, when I watch the video we are saying the same thing, it's so obvious flaw in edison haha. Its like tengu format added a fundamental level to the game that allows much more rich gameplay.
Yo you play melee also? You got yourself a new follower lol, and that item metaphor is spot on XD
@Olin112 I don't play it I just follow the esport scene
Edison>tengu
Gross
@@tcgrewind I agree. Tengu is gross lol
@@tyholland3101 the only people who think that haven't played it
@@tcgrewind I have played it alot lol
@@tyholland3101 oof feels bad. Idk I gave solid points on why 2011 is better but your opinion is your opinion 🤷
Blackwings does well since it’s easy n strong. Prob the first deck people pick up. Also the first deck they drop after realizing how bricky it is. Ever draw 1 kalut/bliz n 5 s/t
Every deck in Edison is bricky there are few consistency cards to make any deck not feel kinda stinky.
Probably dumb question: What Deck can I build in paper that can be used in both formats Edison and Sep2011?
The cards would be a bit different switching between the 2 but honestly vayu turbo, gladiator beasts, diva hero, blackwing, dragons, fish, gadgets and Zombies. Some are better than others. My reccomendation would be Zombies because it's pretty strong in both.
@@tcgrewind Didn't expect that quick response, thank you! :D
@@Quitnau2 of course I'm always down to help players experience the format
@@tcgrewind Do you think a black salvo, dark simorgh, tengu deck for 2011 is any good?
@@Quitnau2 could be give it a shot!
Honestly when it comes to the retro scene I still love playing Dragon Ruler format due to it being where I got my start doing competitive play so seeing people dedicated to specific format is quite interesting to say the least. Tengu plant format based from what I've seen in your vids looks to be very fun to play with especially since I've never really experienced this format competitively. With that said though good luck to you in trying to get more people involved and interested with this format for I know I got interested in it.
That makes me happy to hear
watching this. I feel like Tengu Plant is my favorite deck cause it has so many utilities! I love the mirror matches there.
you articulated why I like Tengu so much better and why Edison felt so much simpler than me... The blow out cards suck
The Maxx C being a staple is also very annoying. It's a staple and $15 min
I agree edison is very sacky and it kind of tricks people into thinking it is a fair format because of how slow it feels but the more you play the more you realize alot of the decks are absolutely broken and the format gets stale fast.
My and friends and i play an edison format draft with a custom banlist but we wanted some of the newer stuff like duality, scrap dragon, glow-up and we unbaned bls but no xyz maxx c tour guide tengu etc. To me thats the optimal format 😅
The xyz pool adds a great dynamic of counterplay to annoying cards in Edison. But unfortunately custom ban lists aren't realistically catching on. Regardless all the cards you are excluding are still 100% fine in this format.
@@tcgrewind it does not have to catch on we play for ourselves :)
@@Alexejletsplay fair enough 👌
Tengu Plant is to Edison what Reaper is to Goat
Btw if they just said that in history of jank cimoooo and MBT used your lists i think everybody would be playing tengu plants. In no other formats ice barrier is a viable deck!!
Personally not a fan of tengu format, mostly due to my own opninion of tengu being a degen af card. I like wind-up format september 2012, pre-mermail. Lots of strong decks, wind-up was king but lost to any handtrap or well placed trap during combo.
Sept 2012/ycs Miami is my second favorite format.
whatever format was yugioh tag force 4, it was the best format
Too bad you cant add off sangan xyz material detach like in TRUE tengu plant format. Missed opportunities 😢
Imo Edison isnt strictly better or worse, it has a completely different dynamic. Where Edison format takes place right after the best cards/decks in the game got completely nuked by a banlist. In sept 11 a lot of decks have their best cards at 3. Venus/earth, T.G. monsters, tengu, tourguide, 3 chaos monsters, and consistency cards like upstart/duality. The result is that Edison decks are a lot more rough, while 2011 decks are more streamlined. I play both as casual ''lets play something else while we wait for the next round'' option. haven't played 2011 retro tournaments yet, so wouldn't really know how 2011 holds up in a modern tournament setting, but IMO both formats have their charm. And when it comes to problem cards, no single historic YGO format is save. Not a single one. Im personally really excited to have more historic formats as public events at YCS's. Utrecht had a time-wizard event each day, (1 goat, 2 edison) And Dortmund will also have 3 (1 goat, 2 2011) so im hopefull that konami will recognize the formats with more support seeing the success.
edison format is arpril 2010 the most attended yugioh championship 2,175 participants
And we all know that the most populated things are always the best and most healthy 😎.
It was actually Long Beach in 2012 with over 4000 players 😎🤝
I have fond memories of Hat format
I’ll give a reason why it’s not: Dark Worlds
Cry about it
Dark World isnt part of 2011 tho, no?
@@yugiohlegend depends on if you play ycs toronto or columbus. Most players in our community dont feel its an issue tho. Deck loses to itself most of the time and is only powerful game1.
Honestly I should just try really hard to break Dark World and see what happens just to prove this wrong lol.
Dark Worlds isn't even that great... and folds to hate that is already commonly used. Not even talking about silver bullets like Gemini Imps.
Both are good 😊
You complain about caius. What do you do when you get warninged 2x then judgmented? Same blow outs dif format
Yea man double warning, judgement opening is the most common oppening hand. You got me. 2 two ofs and a one of. You should play Spaceships in Edison so you can open double honest limiter removal every game.
@@tcgrewind i would argue that summoning a caius is much harder then just using a warning
@@tcgrewind ahem... 3 duality + whichever other synergy draw cards
@@live688 play a 40 card deck with 3 duality and 2 warning and a judgement. Then please tell me how often you open all 3. You can even throw 3 upstart In.
Also as a reminder 2011 also has 3 mst, heavy storm, 3 decree, malevolent catastrophe, 7 tools, dark bribe and dust tornado.
But cmon man you reaching hard af here lol.
@@Jannatul.Firdaus.255 ease use isn't the issue at hand here man. It's probability and counterplay. There are plenty of tools to deal with a set warning in 2011. There are very few to deal with a caius or even a raiza summon for that matter in edison.
Give the format a try before reaching for non existent issues/arguments. I was very fair with my statements.
yes because archtypes and warning, no braincontrol
no because maxx C and black luster soldier.
i have 6 tengu plant decks and played for like the past 3 months
as someone that played fableds in tengu plant format, fuck maxx c :) that being said both formats are sick, both have their flaws. I don't agree with all your points, but it is true that there's less interest in tengu plant generally, probably because edison is so close to it and 2012 was an awful format so no one bothered checking back in between
Sept 2011 was the retro format of choice in my area along with goat before edison got big. It feels like a much more limited format compared to edison as far as the amount of decks that can actually win a tournament and tengu plant mirrors are about as much fun as watching paint dry at this point. I've played a lot of both and prefer edison but I don't think Sept 2011 is bad by any means
Data speaks for itself. Edison really doesn't have too much variety in what wins but tengu plant format has absurdly divers top 8s. I see something new just about every tournament.
@@tcgrewind Maybe things are changing now with more eyes on the format and I will look further into it. Edison has a lot of decks that can win tournaments but that is nullified by people all wanting to play blackwings or zombies, whatever is flavor of the month. Top 8s of RBETs are almost a dishonest representation of the format in that aspect. Though I admittedly have bias because of my locals running edison twice a month now and facing a decent variety of decks
@@dudesk099 yea my biggest issue is if you aren't playing one of the main decks in Edison it feels unplayable and bad. However take any deck vs tengu plants or agents and I genuinely feel like you can win. I'd say there are 10 decks max that can win a tournament for Edison and about 30 that can win a tournament in 2011.
@@tcgrewind Thats also because of numbers. If 2011 formats get higher player counts and a more competitive scene, the amount of decks that do well will also dwindle. Into a field of people all trying to play what they think is the absolure best choice for the event, a forfun option will feel lackluster. In 2011 format, the same will most likely happen. The next EU YCS will have 2 2011 Time wizard events. Im really curious how those will perform compared to the Edison ones, and what decks will emerge. Because once you get a competitive scene, the amount of decks will dwindle. Stuff like machina gadgets was considered a contender for edison 2 years ago, but not anymore once the format got solved a bit, and I think that if 2011 picks up momentum, the popular decks will gather more crowd than the lesser known, and slightly less powerfull decks.
What is that timeline site?
I dont remember tbh it was a long time ago.
Based and truthpilled
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
can you stop grapha with debunk??
Yes
No. Grapha's summon doesn't start a chain.
@@WhoNeedsMeta not the summon but yes the gy eff. I guess I shoulda specified.
Edison format would be so much better if Ryko and Caius were at less than 3 per deck.
Facts tengu solves that problem.
Big fan of both personally
In my mind 2011 is better for players who like combo, and 2010 is better for players who like control. Not that EVERY deck in those formats lines up with that, but the pace of the formats has a lot to do with who will like what.
I would argue that 2011 is the best place to do both. Backrow/control decks are 10× more viable in 2011 than in Edison due to lack of Coldwave trunade. Plus an increase in value of starlight road due to the addition of dark hole. And combo decks are viable but put in there place a bit due to maxx c. To me it has similar pacing to Edison but has more windows for explosiveness if the stars align. Often times you have to out grind your opponents to make a satisfying big push at the end.
2011 is easily better for control because of the generic and good counterplay available. Midrange gets better too because of counterplay against cards like Caius.
@@tcgrewind I see that, and I appreciate your enthusiasm for the format a lot, it's gotten me more interested in cards from this era. It's interesting to see what players really enjoy about Yugioh and what they don't enjoy as much. For me, the relative lack of generic negates is part of what makes Edison a bit more fun. 2011's staple lineup makes deckbuilding more centralized, which can be either positive or negative, depending how you look at it.
@@tcgrewind trunade isn’t even played. Only fits into some decks. Cold wave is played in certain decks but even then hardly sees play. So your logic for control decks being better isn’t that valid.
@@exiathomas2114 the fact that they are infrequently played further supports my main point. You cannot prepare for them when running a control deck so if one is used against you, it can hard blow you out. I pay close attention to every major Edison tournament these cards 100% still see play and they see play in top cut. I understand you are a Edison fan. But your arms will start to hurt if you keep reaching like this brother. As stated in the video my goal is not to prevent you from playing this format. If you love Edison so much, and refuse to play both formats from an objective pov then this video isn't for you.
point one BLACKWINGS SUCKS
idk i basically mastered edison format i have decks in edison that no one knows about that i consider tier1 decks won irl tourneys just never competed in online tourneys so i actually know more than anybody about this format. Believe it or not the edison format is far from what it actually can be for example my most powerful deck is a stardust dragon assault mode deck that is extremely consistent and basically beats everything in the meta. i just started tengu format and honestly find it pretty easy to break a deck in that format where in edison its harder because of the limited card pool. Dont get me wrong im loving the bigger card pool but my first impression is that the otks are much more easier to initiate and of couse gorz and double trag help and fader of course but warning can stop them and your deck might not even run too many of hand battle stops to begin with because they arent always the most optimal. Dont get me wrong edison isnt perfect and otks happen too but in tengu i feel like its very easy to lose a game because if you plan to protect yourself. with backrow you always have to be wary of heavystorm. If you set too many with starlight road the opponets can storm plus warning to blow you out. If you set 1 the opponent can just mst since its a 3 of and then defense is gone. Dark hole also clears defense if you have no backrow or it already got popped. I almost got otk by infernities even after i had control of the game they took the maxx c challenge i didnt find gorz and i feel like the player messed up his combo. I made a really good tengu deck right off the bat when i started with some unique techs and Ive been having fun no doubt just lost 1 match out of many because i understand the tg formula combos and haev secret techs no one knows about Ive been playing them since they came out. But once again in alot of those games I always felt out of control because of how easy it can be to otk whereas in edison you have more control if you are smart about the possible plays. But once again Im relatively new to the format been having loads of fun and love the big card pool but idk if its more balanced than edison format to be honest maybe with more experience in the format ill see it in a different light but as of now it seems this way to me.
I hate tengu plant, there is no substitoad, no royal oppression, also if you play heroes, ignition priority cheese The shinning out with any interaction
😂😂😂
😂
skill issue 🤣
Meh