KICKED OFF OF PUBLIC LAND the New Mexico Dirt //
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- Опубликовано: 5 янв 2022
- KICKED OFF OF PUBLIC LAND the New Mexico Dirt // #PLH2 EP 8 We finally make it NM for another public land adventure. This is the episode where we "get kicked off" of public land. It was a strange and awkward interaction elk hunting. This is going to be one very tricky elk hunt and we bring you along for the entire ride.
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Can you do us a solid and SHARE with your friends that also support Public Lands?? We do get on the phone with the game warden. And anybody that can help share information about how to avoid these kinds of situations in the future please do!
How can they lease state land
@@Steve5586owens Its a grazing permit that is leased for the ranchers to run cattle on public land. They just use that as a way to bully public hunters off the land so they can claim that they own the land for private land hunts.
I really doubt this will ever end this will keep happening every year you are not the first this will happen to or the last. I have had it happen I just say call the sheriff or game warden I'll keep hunting.
State land in NM isn't "public land". NMG&F pays the State Land office for rights to hunt certain state land. Access to the rest is controlled by the lessee if unitized or thru the state permit system.
@@Steve5586owens Steve that is the point of the state land programs to collect lease money for the state. BLM also has grazing leases etc. Different states have different rules on how that State land can be used and some do have options to restrict access to only the Lessee. Even though Federal there are BLM lands that cannot be accessed by the general public though few and far between.
I've run into similar situations while backpacking/camping on leased BLM land here in New Mexico. The rancher in my situation was trying to claim grazing rights basically meant he controlled access to that property. A quick call to the BLM emergency line and a BLM law enforcement Ranger arrived and basically threatened the rancher with permanent revocation of all his leases on federal land. If you really push it the state land commission will jump all over this guy because what he's doing is a violation of his lease terms. BTW: a satellite phone with the local game warden, USFS Ranger and BLM Ranger contact numbers is a awesome thing to have so this can be worked out without having to drive to town. The sat phones will also log GPS coords so there's no disputing your location.
that is sad to hear.. hope there is a way to help!!
What numbers should one saved for situations such as this? I have ran into this a few times as well and tired to show them my map only to have a rifle pulled. Thanks
ranchers and family try and do this all the time. It is only leased for grazing, he is lying!!
@@dogbite1429 I have had them try and do this crap and tell them I am calling the game warden because most states have laws against harassing hunters in legal hunting activity!
@@ElkShape did you read his comment? What’s there to be sad about?
Floyd Lee PISSED OFF the WRONG dude! 😂🤘🏼
The land owner can be fine AND lose his ability to lease state or federal lands if caught limiting legal access to public grounds. That is THE LAW.
Please tell me that you and the game warden make a trip back to the land and set them straight. It’s just the principal of it.
I fully agree with this comment. That rancher needs to be set straight.
Total Hog Wash!!!!!!! They have no right to kick you off!!! We had one (rancher) doing this garbage in our unit and locking gates to prevent hunter access. The game warden went through cutting his locks with bolt cutters!! Thanks for respectfully standing your ground!
Love how you challenged that. Polite but firm. Too many people get away will bullying people and love how you challenged it.
Wow - I follow you as well 'Third Coast Craftsman'; glad you too enjoy the hunting content as I presume you must hunt. This episode was simply hard to fathom. Floyd Lee must be JC reincarnated
I give it to yall cause I would have went off on him. I'd tell him he better get out my face unless he's going to do something. Ranchers like that are playing with fire doing stuff like that. They'd be messing with the wrong one if I encountered that.
Im so glad you have a camera to catch these guys being shady.
Thank you for standing up for our rights as public land hunters. Much appreciated.
Pat is my dad
Dan you did an unbelievable job of keeping your cool in a messed up scenario. I don’t know NM law but it sure sounds fishy. Dude knows every rule and has been fighting poachers left and right but doesn’t know the game warden?!
In New Mexico you can lease the agricultural use of the land, but you aren’t allowed to control access to the land for other uses. New Mexico State Trust lands that are off limits to hunting are clearly designated on OnX with red slashes through the land.
Hunted unit 9 next to the Floyd Lee ranch years ago. Had an aircraft flying over in the middle of the night pushing elk. NM fish and Game needs to seize all their hunting vouchers and fine them for hunter harassment. If nothing is done this will continue to happen.
You are correct. So does Chama Land and Cattle Co
@@gohunting13 wasn’t Chama busted once for hijacking public elk and moving them to their ranch?
@@mopardoctor9966 yes I believe you're correct it's been a while but the lobbyists for other ranches such as The UU bar and the cs cattle ranch have people inside The game and fish department getting extra permits example 1 year 50 antelope permits were given to the cs kettle ranch only five were given to public and when some of the public hunters hunted the cs cattle ranch they're only assigned to certain areas of the ranch not full access
Well done, Dan. That dude didn't know what he was talking about....mixing messages regarding grazing leases and hunting leases with the hope and intent to confuse out of state hunters into simply leaving. It's a frustrating deal particularly when outfitters in NM are already getting such an advantage compared to the DIT crowd. You hate to see that after all the time, effort and money we too invest in these kind of hunts. Hopefully, you had the opportunity to "teach" him a little about how hunting access works in NM.
thanks guys 🤘
When are we gonna see the Hush and Elkshape collab?!?!?!
RELEASE THE HUSHIN CREW ON THEM!
" Hopefully, you had the opportunity to "teach" him a little about how hunting access works in NM."
I doubt they taught him anything. Landowners do this stuff all the time, intentionally.
@@GreatDarkKnight came here to say that. For him, it was a success. If you don’t take them in for hunter harassment (at least in the states I’ve lived in), he just knows that they left and never came back so he must’ve been right.
Several things to note:
A unit wide private land elk tag is good on any private property of a land owner who is issued unit wide tags. The state lists the ranches that participate in the program.
New Mexico State Trust land can be leased for agricultural or industrial use, but the lease holder can’t control access for any other purpose.
Yes, under the open gate law private landowners can hunt on public land but they are required to open their private land to all public hunters.
I can't EVEN describe how happy I am you caught this on camera!
They are corrupt fkers! He's lying to his clients too. But nothing happens. Screw Yellowstone. This this be its own show. The FLOYD LEE. it's starts from the top in government in NM. corrupt as Cali. This is why you had great draw odds. Happy to take your money though.
Did he not notice you were filming? That doesn't usually fly with these numb nuts. You are lucky you didn't get shot at.
Patric is my dad he was mad
That's sounds like a load of BS to scare people off ... even sounds illegal. Please keep updated
super fishy, super BS
@@ElkShape please tell me you are pushing the issue with the game warden? These dudes will keep bullying if you do nothing
As a NM resident it makes me mad as hell to see this BS continue year after year with ranch owners thinking because they lease the land from the state they think they own it. Not the case. You cannot own something you lease, such as state land. They lease it for grazing rights and are required to put up gates and fences in order to keep so called livestock in the area. This is why they put locks on the gates and call it theirs. Problem is that these leases bring in big money to the state and the state is slow to go after them for cutting off access or threatening hunters. The outfitters routinely hunt on public land (as you clearly filmed what appears to a guide and hunter) and they use the leased state land as if it’s their’s and then tell it’s their’s. Grazing rights do not equate to ownership. This Unit 9 or the “Checkerboard” Bulls... has been going on for years. I’ve hunted there twice in my lifetime, been threatened with a firearm while there and experienced vandalism to my vehicle much in the same way you two did. Again a lot of the problems stem from the big money that these hunts bring into the ranches. There are to many other units within NM that are just as good as the whole of Unit 9 to hunt in. Don’t waste your money on that area unless you continually want problems and harassment from like you documented on camera. It’s not worth it. Lastly, please don’t let this experience sour you on hunting NM. It’s a beautiful state with awesome hunting experiences to be had outside of Unit 9.
Perfectly stated . I live in Albuquerque and have hunted the same area. Floyd Lee ranch has been pulling this BS for 25+ years. USO Outfitters has been involved with these people as well. New Mexico has a hunter harassment law that will help solve the issue with this rancher.
This unit is very similar to the unit I like to hunt in New Mexico. I have spent enough time that I can get around the checkerboard bulls... I have however been threatened and once was assaulted by the land owner. I had a hunting season where I didn't draw. I went to that unit with a camera and map. I videoed the guides for that landowner driving through a public gate and shooting a bull out of the window. I turned it over to the NMDGF and from what other hunters in the area told me that landowner lost his tags for multiple years. I went back and hunted it last year. The landowner was completely different.
Simply, they can lease state or Federal (BLM) land for grazing, not hunting. They still have to allow access to the public on these lands, OUR public lands. Glad you guys captured this. I’ve experienced (especially in northern New Mexico) where some of these ranchers are placing private property signs all over access points to public land. I respect ranchers and their way of life, so I don’t want to make a blanket statement that ALL ranchers are doing shady crap. Anyway, God bless you guys and shoot straight!
This guy is probably trying to keep everybody off the land so his buddies can be the only ones hunting it! Some people think they own the world unless someone proves them wrong! And this is the reason why hunters losing respect for lease ranchers
These r not ranchers, wealthy out of state owners, locals partnered to outfitters acting like its private. BTW leases are up for bid
They are making money off it !!!!!
According to the rules and refs it is legal for you to hunt that property but illegal for Floyd Lee to hunt it his ranch is a ranch only and state land is public land
Handled perfectly by you guys. You weren't going to be bullied, and he knew it. He stuck to the only playbook he knew and lost. Good work. 👍
This definitely needs some follow through. I hope you have the contact info of the other hunting party and file charges/small claims something and recoup some or all your money for tags and trip. Definitely will be looking for a follow up.
👍 follow up with this, please do. There is so many bullies in this great nation. This guy needs a rude awakening
Thanks for bringing this to everyone’s attention. This is hunter harassment and needs to be stopped. Hopefully your efforts will help hunters who have that tag next year so that they don’t have to deal with this kind of crap.
Is “hunter harassment” an actual law that people can be arrested for, if they ruin your hunt by scaring off the game ?
@@drewd7824 Yes it's actually a pretty serious crime too intentionally Is harass in scare off somebody's game water hunting. The law was basically made for all these Peta people They would try to go out where known hunting land is and scare off it's scared off all the animals so people couldn't hunt the animals then that's when that law came into effect
These people are slime. Keep up the good work creating awareness of their blatant profit off a shared resource.
I'd meet the game warden in person and show him that video and file charges for hunter harassment. I hope you got the phone numbers of the other hunters that were harassed too so everybody can file charges against that guy. I'd be right back out there the next day and have the game warden on speed dial when that douchebag shows up again asking you to leave or ask the game warden to make an appearance.
That’s the shitty thing-seemed like they didn’t have cell service there. They were able to get GPS for On X, and record the encounter with their phones, but they stated near the end they wanted to drive to town for cell service to call the game warden.
I look forward to the conclusion where the land owner gets put in their place.
I really hope they do this. If you ignore it, other hunters will have their things destroyed and be harassed as well
Patric is actually my dad
The man in this video appears to be Randy Weems from USO Outfitters. According to their website he passed away in Dec. Life is short and all of this just diminishes from the overall hunting experience we share in the field. Our actions = our character which in turn results in the quality of the experiences we get to enjoy or not. The "Golden Rule" rises the experience on all sides of any fence.
It does kind of look like him. Saying it’s private and kicking all other hunter off so he can keep it all for his clients, dirty. Maybe that’s who trashed the bike, too?
Awesome guys. I like how this video shows a positive way to handle a stressful situation. You could have easily made things worse but you took the high road and stayed respectful and cool. Good job guys!
First red flag was when he didn't want to look at your track they you get going, second one was when he didn't know the game Warden by name nor had their phone number. Shady AF. I'm sorry that this happened to all of you but at the same time it was a good experience for everybody there and watching. Keep up the great work man.
I have heard of leasing and having a camp on public land but other people can still hunt it! What is this YELLOWSTONE? 🤣
Be careful or Rip will take you to the train station !!
This BS happens all the time in NM. Some family leases a property for grazing and then thinks they own it. Then hates the FACT they don't get all the elk in an area and their clients have to compete.
The guy saying it was posted. It probably was posted for no trespass to the private side. You guys handled your cool very well. Good job.
Sorry to hear that, it's unfortunate
I grew up in NM. Unfortunately this kind of shady behavior is very common. A friend shot a bull across a canyon. By the time he got there, 3 scumbags were dressing it out. He backed out and called a warden. The dudes were gone with the elk by the time the warden arrived. Just another day in NM.
Had this happened to me a number of years ago. Ended up getting Game Wardens involved and the "land owner" was arrested. Happened near Weed, NM.
Some how missed the last 30 seconds of the video. But confirmation of your right to hunt that very land you were on was confirmed. Excellent work following up.
Been waiting for this one. Thank you guys for showing us this. God bless.
I have had the same bullshit pulled on me. They try to confuse you by saying it’s leased. None the wiser would know that it’s only cattle grazing leased. It’s still public land and they put water tanks on public land all the time. I’m so glad to see you stand up and challeng this man. You did all us ethical public land hunters good.
I doubt its even leased half the time. They just do what they want.
This happens a lot in New Mexico, outfitters try to scare hunters off of public land very often.
Fantastic episode! Can’t wait to see the next one! Thanks for all you do!
Something sounds fishy. I hope you keep us updated on what you find out. The guy claimed to be ex Leo, but doesn’t have a contact number for the local warden? Hope you got his name, number and vehicle license plate. Like you said land swaps happen all the time, which could be the case. Worth following up on.
He probably is ex LEO that has gone bad as he oozes legal double speak: Identifies that land is leased, implies that they cant enter- but does not technically say that they cant. "Not having"- wink nod, the Game Wardens number puts the burden back on the hunters. Its a common trick.
I knew what unit you were in from the last video. It’s a bad unit and the helicopter stuff (which is true) and private land owners are terrible. Once upon a time, it was a great unit. Poor management.
Even in the dark you can see the Geoengineering in the skies....crazy
Great video as always. thanks for sharing all of this and way to keep your cool.
I’m so glad you caught all that on camera. It’s a bunch of bull when we have total access to hunt State Land that is “public” land with a valid license. I just hope the state looks into this matter and corrects it!
I'm sorry this happened to you... As a NM resident I've dealt with this as well, unfortunately its extremely common here. Hopefully you're able to get a positive resolution from this! Ill stay tuned for an update video
I’ve been looking forward to this video since listening to your podcast! I’m impressed with how you guys were able to keep your cool. I hope something positive comes out of all of this! Nice work!
It's sure interesting 10 mo. Still no comment about the outcome in the description. Just wants the algorithm to keep paying him?
I worked for an outfitter in Jelm, Wyoming which was actually in northern Colorado we just had a Wyoming address because the post office was the closest in Wyoming. Lol. Long story but anyway I packed out elk for the outfitter and they leased land for cattle through the BLM but since they didn’t actually own it then anyone was able to hunt all of that land. It was up by Shipman Park which is an awesome place to hunt elk in the mountains. Anyway the only thing that the ranch leased that no one else was allowed to use was where we set up our camp. Our camp was up all hunting season but we was the only one allowed in that specific location. The camp was awesome. We had 4 large wall tents along with a super big wall tent for the kitchen and where everyone ate. We used sheepherders stoves. We would actually turn the horses and mules out and just put bells around their neck and hobble their feet it was nice to hear the bells throughout the night. Those was great times that I really miss. Anyway I know for a fact that guy is lieing.
Great job 👏🏽 I live in NM and dealing with this is constantly happening ranchers will try anything to keep you out. It’s getting to the point here in NM that discourages you from trying to hunt or getting your kids to hunt. Biggest thing here is trying to get permission to use their road to get to the blm/state lands, they will say no because they run their own outfitters in those areas. Southwest is notorious for this. Thank you for standing up for us all! If you need more info I’m willing to help!
New subscriber here, mainly because of your courage in dealing with this situation. Looking forward to more content.
Cool video and good info, look forward to seeing what happens next…
Props to you Dan! There is NO WAY I would’ve been that polite! Show me the freaking video chief
Great job holding it together with that confrontation, I'm sure this happens more than people like to admit.
thanks G
Definitely need an update to this story as far as what you found out from the game and fish. Ive heard countless stories of people having run ins with the Floyd Lee people. Not to mention the helicopters. Please provide update.
In the last few seconds of the video they show the phone conversation of the warden saying they have the right to hunt there
I've been waiting for this one since you talked about it on your podcast. I look forward to watching it.
nice work boys!!!!!! get em!
you're a bad ass dan, please never change!!!
That guy knew good and well the hunting rights weren’t leased- I like the way you shared enough information on your map that it can be found by everyone, it’s gonna be like open season around that Ranch now 😎
From my understanding, the rancher can lease grazing rights and can have an outfitter permit to Legally guide hunters for profit but they do not own the land and can not kick the hunting public off.
Man I literally live in the town where you guys were parked at the gas station (won’t say where it is) and know that rancher personally. That’s really a shame that you were treated that way. This is wild. I am glad I saw this video because I will likely be dealing with this in the future in the same exact area. I hope you guys come back and hunt here again. Maybe try unit 13 or 12. Super nice bulls there.
Tell the rancher and his employees they're pieces of sh*t sincerely, from every hunter and tax paying US citizen.
@Sixgun Symphony Great call Sixgun
Every hunting in here should organize and hunt that area At the same time
@@coachpunches55 Everyone organize a visit to Floyd Lee house. It’s just past the firehouse😁
Lol
I don’t know if I’m the weird one, but to me it seems off that “security” is just strolling around in camo pants.
Good observation! Might have been an outfitter?
That is so messed up!! Grazing rights never means exclusive hunting rights on state land. Those meathead security guards know what they are doing.. again messed up. You did great. Keep up the good work bro.
Thats pretty frustrating and unfortunate to happen on ur hunt, to bad that not everyone can just be on the same page and not try to interfere with others, just takes a few bad apples to ruine the experience for everyone else,look forward to you next video
Wow. Crazy stuff!
Great content
Absolutely no need for vandalism
Absolutely no need for outfitters or ranches to try to get away with this on public lands
Some people need to learn respect and civility
Stay strong and keep doing what you do
Crazy, people do stuff like this a lot. Glad you guys did your diligence and checked and challenged it. Sad that 2 different hunts were messed up from them. Who knows how many other ones they have messed up as well.
Thank you for sharing! And in many ways, I hope you went back to hunt it.
Loved how you handled it!
if they're not law enforcement/ game warden, tell em to eff off.
That guy belongs in jail for intimidating people on public land. This pisses me off to no end!
Dan I hope the state of NM doesn’t let this go and those a-holes get what they deserve.
Good job on keeping your cool bro. That must have been tough.
Oooooooo man. I can’t wait for the next episode
Good thing you got it on camera man, unfortunate that you had this experience, I have hunted unit 9 and was successful in harvesting a nice cow elk. Good luck on your future hunts! 🤙🏽
Keep up the good work!
Head up never let ‘em get you down……. No quarter given!
Ranchers in Utah try this all the time, even posting signs, installing gates that are locked. The Game Wardens say this is illegal, yet all the fences/locks and signs remain. What everyone needs to get a grasp on, is these ranchers have way more power than we do. You, as a hunter break the law, you pay the consequences, where a leasing ranch owner breaks the law, he simply gets a new No Trespassing Sign to hang up. Not fair. But the State leases land and makes $$ of these ranchers and won't spoil that relationship. Heck at some of the UT conservation meetings I attend, Ranchers sit on the boards that make the recommendations to what the State should do as far as hunting logistics. Get used to it guys, the herds are diminishing and States know tag allotment funds will eventually dwindle, but ranchers paying lease land for cattle grazing rights is here to stay.
When pressed, GUY says" we are told by Floyd" 🤣
I'm so glad that I watched this video it's a learning curve for me. I have never hunted in the West and it's always good to learn and prepare.
I had a situation like this on public land in Michigan. A private land owner adjacent to public land said he had rights to "his spot". Said he would call the DNR. I said go ahead. He became threatening. So I left instead of escalating to violence. Called the DNR myself. They came out and found his illegal bait piles, ticketed him. I never hunted that area again for fear of escalation from him. Found better spots anyways.
We had people gas our bear baits the day before the opener and steal our camera.We had a great spot with lots of bears coming in 2.5 miles in the forest in northern Wisconsin.We drove 2 hours to get to the forest and time to get to the hunting spot with many trips invested.There are some real A Holes out there that think they own the world.
Dudes thank you for publishing this! I am a new hunter (one year) and have worried about stuff like this.
Be aware this is not a one sized fits all....each state is different.
Please keep us updated. This is very useful information. I will be headed to Colorado in September of 22 for my first elk hunt. Would like to know what I might be up against. Thank you
Where you going?
I think we should organize a Floyd lee week and all hunt the entire surrounding area for the season
You have more patience than the average man! Nice!
I gained a lot of respect for you and your channel because of how you handled this crap show. I'm not sure I would have been as cordial. Unfortunately, I have had many confrontations like this over the years. I always have at least a relationship by phone with the local game warden/biologist on all of my out of state hunts before the hunt. It's a shame that we have to go through this to enjoy our rightful place on public land. OnX has been a game changer for ethical hunters. I enjoy your content and look forward to more.
Thanks for sharing! Unit 9 off my list for next year lol
Had a guy pull the private lease bullshit on me in New Mexico near Barrillas peak in the national forest. I knew what was what and he knew he was full of it. Me and him had quite a discussion while I videoing him. Turned his ass in to the state at the local level and federal level and demanded hunters harassment charges on him. Got a call later and that guy lost his lease supposedly and a $1500 fine. Funny thing was they only used my video and I was never asked to a court there.
Good on you!!
@@ElkShape the video you were able to capture can be used in the hunter harassment law that New Mexico has that's the best evidence I've seen that will shut down the fluidly ranch they've been pulling this crap for 25 plus years you did excellent job I live in Albuquerque and dealt with the same BS in that area
He said the magic word!! They pay big money so their clients can poach!!!! If he was so sure with his filming he wouldn’t be arguing he would just handle it legally!! That dude is full of shit! People are bold being confrontational in a area were you could disappear!
Interested in this for sure man.
The States need to really hammer these guys who pull this stuff with public land hunters.
Ooooh Snap, Cant wait for the Follow up on this one.
Here in Wyoming, I know land owners can lease state land for crop and you can’t hunt it. It’s a grey area because they use the term “cultivated land”. If you know/find the land owner you’ll most likely be able to hunt it if you ask. There also land owners here that try to deny access on public roads because it goes through their ranch.
Love your videos hope you never stop making your hunting movies I have watch archery videos for years and get the most realistic info just watched your elk movie where you packed out that elk all by your self and made me wish I would stick out my brothers nv rifle bull tag this year we chased one back 5 miles and got scared lol about packing it out by ourselves so we moved spots then didn’t see anything
Great video. Thank you for sharing it
Thanks for watching!
NM hunter here , you are exactly in the right , they do lease the state land for grazing this does not cover hunting , hunting harassment is what it is , good job buddy.
Happens all the time in Colorado, often they will even cut trees down on access roads too
Man I’m speechless with New Mexico u know it’s terrible when Dan shouts out the unit man so far a terrible hunt and experience can only get better
In fact guys you are in the right "Rancher"gets unit wide tags so everything is open . I don't put in for that area there's to much stuff going on, its been happening for many years. Game and Fish knows it . Money Money Money Sad . Hope you guys connected.
I had a similar issue with a rancher in NV. I was on BLM land calling coyotes. The rancher did not even have cows on the section we were calling but had a grazing lease there. When we told him to stop harassing us as he did not own the land and only had grazing rights we thought it was over. On our way out we came across him using bailing wire to tie the gates shut locking us in. I pulled up fast and jumped out with my phone and got him on video doing it. Pulled some loopers out and cut the wire and politely told him I was head right to the BLM office 10 min away. Had a great talk with the ranger and have not had issues with that Rancher again.
damn!
I’ve lived and hunted in NM all my life and never have had a bad experience with a guide or an outfitter. You should buy that tag next season and go back next to the Floyd Lee and hunt and have a NMG&F CO on speed dial.
I heard the podcast on this and know you talked to the Warden. I just want to point out that Colorado State Trust land more often than not is leased for hunting. Public access seems to be the exception.
I'd love to hear how that turned out Dan. You did handle that pretty well👍
Should watch the whole video.
@@J.Patriot I thought I did. Sorry about that. It may have cut out on my end before then. Love the content.
Good job guys, that kind of thing happens all of the time mossback in my state of utah, they have been proven to block road access, run people off of public and fence off public land. Their guides are also super confrontational and we have been basically run off. I was only 15 at the time, and they basically threatened us. Good job keeping cool, and putting in the work. You guys are the more mature people I would have stayed and hunted it especially if I was getting into elk.
Damn bro! I hunted the same hunt and missed my first elk because my release failed but sucks you guys had to deal with that there's alot of problems coming from that ranch mainly the helicopters but it's well known about unit 9
Way to go and figure that out. Here in Oregon we have been fighting with new property owners that close county roads. It ends up being years before the public gets to use their roads again after spending years in litigation. It is again rich outfitters at the core of this "landgrab" and keeps John Q Public out of public ground.