Top 4 BIG PROBLEMS with Brand New Sailboats - Ep 315 - Lady K Sailing
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Brand new sailboats have BIG problems you should know about before you buy one. Today we look at new Beneteau, Hunter, Dufour, Bavaria, Catalina, and others and find problems with the brand new sailboat design that will annoy you when you take these boats extended cruising. What to look for in a new boat before you buy one.
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When I was a young lad, I asked an old sailor; “What’s the most important part of sailing”. His immediate answer was “Really good ground tackle, you can always sail, but you better be able to stop, and stay stopped”. Decades later, I have learned just how great his advice was….
this is wise advice,, get over size ground tackle,, mine is a 1945 f fisherman anchor thing has got to weight 75 kilos,,, i can hardly lift it,, it saved my life and my yacht, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it now lives on the yacht.
Few years ago I received a Lagoon 78 brand new from the shipping vessel to the water, i cannot be more disappointed, 30 min in the water the boat was flooding, open the bilge found a hose loose, bilge pump collapsed, floating in the bilge was found gloves, rags, water bottles, zip tie, and fiber glass dust, the rudder delaminated in less than a month. And the weird noice of cracking when sailing was not pleasant, it give you the feeling that the structure will collapse any time. From this experience i bought an old robust aluminum boat Metalu. Great video
Sharp corners. Yikes. I once went to Ikea to buy a new bed frame. Just looking into that dept my toes screamed out. I've stepped on nails sticking out of boards with less pain then barking a toe against a sharp corner.. These sharp edges are because of veneers and laminates. These can't be routed or sanded into more gentle curves. Even a 1/8" radius (3mm) is enough to ease an edge. But you can't do that with veneer. And a sharp table edge (or the stupid edge of all MacBook Pros) is uncomfortable if you rest your arms against them. Inhuman and inexcusable. (Fortunately I found a really nice sleigh bed on the curb. In my house I have Ikea drawers, curb finds and high end custom mortise and tenon furniture. If you notice the Ikea and not the good stuff you won't get a second date....)
The solution I think is, either buy that Catalina... or don't buy any new boat. (I can't ever see buying a new boat. New boat problems. I've fixed them. It was endless but a lot of fun. However, that no longer new boat after 7500 nM and a visit to a Canadian boat yard, is a much better boat than it was brand new in Vietnam. My recommendation is to buy a used boat, probably about 10 years old. Then you get better woodwork inside, and a solid fiberglass hull. Trying to sell my 2003 Hunter I realized that I won't find as good a boat for less than triple what the best offer was. So I'm keeping her.
And buying a used boat will save you a lot of money. I think the used boat market is still based on decades ago when 10 and 20 years meant blisters and dead teak. Greek Triremes they used to pull ashore as much as possible and they still only lasted a year or two. Solid fiberglass hulls, good decks (none of that Beneteau open cell foam nonsense) and no exposed wood means a lot of boats are effectively permanent. The way they 'die' is the rig or the engine fails and the cost of replacement is about the same or more then finding another boat just like it without that problem.
I’ve got one of ‘those old Hunters with no back stay.’ Passagemaker 456 with a B&R rig. The pluses are, because the chain plates are so close to the keel the mast and rig are very rigid. So minimal work hardening. (This is where any metal will break if you just keep bending it.) Hunter says the mast can be lighter. (Is this one of the reasons my boat has such good sea keeping?Less weight high up and no wiggling?) My boat is from 2003. I last had a rigger on board a year ago, and another a year before that. Both emphatically said I didn’t need to replace the rigging. (I’m going to do it anyway. It’s over 20 years old! It’s also been from California to New Zealand and back. So it's not like it hasn't been sailed.)
Sailing on a beam reach, the stays are very different than sailing a B&R rig on a cat. The lee side stays of the cat looks like loose spaghetti, on my boat you can feel some slack, but not much. (In my slip I get a consistent 5000 to 5400 on the Loos Tension gauge. The higher number for the outside on both sides).
And if something does break there’re pairs of stays and two shrouds (Cutter shroud). If I reduce sail I should never lose my mast. (I hope I never find out the contrary.)
Maybe because I had to figure out wing on wing myself, wasn’t good at it, didn’t care for it. On the cat we also tried to avoid it. Maybe just the B&R rig... We would fly the kite, or go a few points off our course. So I don’t miss wing on wing. I might be wrong.
My boat buying process started about 4 years ago. I took ASA courses and chartered on an 80's O'Day 39, a Catalina 320, and a Jeanneau 349. There were very obvious differences in these boats. The O'Day felt solid, had lots of storage, but felt small and dark down below. The Catalina 320 seemed well built and spacious and brighter, especially for a 32 footer. The Jeanneau 349 had been in the charter business in the Virgin Islands for 3 years, and really showed wear. It also was open and bright down below, but suffered a lack of storage in my mind.
What we ended up doing was buying a 1984 Nordic 44, and spending 11 months and more $$ than the purchase price getting her ready. She is solid, has handholds and rounded surfaces, tons of storage and good tankage, and sails like a dream. I feel sorry for those who don't have the time or skills to refit an older boat, because the options are really poor or expensive!
I like the Nordic 44 that you described. I used one quite a bit in my charter business.
Absolutely, and the cost of buying a well found but older boat and doing it up is hugely cheaper than any of these dreadful excuses for boats on the market today. Very frequently you can find a 40 footer for $60,000-$80,000, spend another $50,000-$60,000 and you’ve got a brilliant boat you can sail anywhere less than $150,000. As opposed to $350,000 to $600,000 for a new boat.
Controversial opinion: The majority of new boats produced are garbage. As a marine tech, I've seen the boat industry follow the same route as RV / camper and automotive industries. Quality of materials and manufacturing has had an inverse relationship to profit in the modern economy. The warranty work is trending in the wrong direction, as is the quality of replacement parts and their longevity / availability. Experienced sailors know it, too. My number one request is retrofitting modern equipment into older vessels where the tried and true infrastructure never needs questioning. Thank you, Tim, for highlighting a simple truth. Newer does not necessarily equate to value or quality.
For this exact reason we shall hope Catalina will never go IPO, design philosophy should not be dictated by big shareholders focusing on profit margins.
@koborkutya7338 Agreed. Catalina is a beacon of quality thru simplicity and adherence to quality practices and products. I consider Catalina the Toyota of sailboat manufacturers and recommend both products with equal praise and measure.
That is not a controversial opinion at all. These modern boats suck in so many ways, and in many more ways than what Tim mentioned. Last year I was talking to a boat trucker and he said that he will not truck a Beneteau or most other modern boats because they cannot take the stress and shock loads that happen when you transport a boat over land for any distance: bulkheads separate from the hull, stress fractures appear in the grid and other structural components, and other damage occurs. It leads me to ask what will happen to such a boat that gets caught in a storm or experiences a hard grounding.
@@AhoySkylark Two years ago at Annapolis, a brand new Jeanneau arrived with her keel grid popped off the hull during transit - no one even knew how it had happened. The broker had to tarp the keel, hire a specialist to grind everything down - the guy told me that he glassed back in 35 layers to repair the damage, but now the boat was "properly strong".
So-called top monohulls are plain garbage, fit for coastal cruising at best. I call them river boats now. Structurally, incapable of ocean going, not small passages, full time ocean boats. Interior quality equal to poorest kitchen cupboard.
Call em out! Good on you. I support this video.
I was at the Vancouver Boat Show yesterday, came upon a Jeanneau Sun Odessy 350. Nice & shiny with those odd side decks that allow you access forward without having to climb over the cockpit coaming. Two wheels, two rudders, no genoa tracks, no jib tracks, no mainsheet traveler. A pair of low friction rings attached to the coach roof for the genoa, a pair of low friction rings aft for the code "0", and, as Tim mentioned, a molded anchor platform with one (small) roller. All this could be yours for half a million Canadian! But it was pretty! Keep up the good videos Tim.
Thank for such informative videos. Your point about the anchor/bowsprits is well founded and would be easy to miss for someone looking to get into cruising,
Couldn't agree more! Your anchor is your safety! Here in Scotland, we always used good ground tackle long before Rocna and Ultra...we used CQR and proper chain. My Moody 33 came with a 25lb CQR and 20 fathoms (120') of 1/4" chain. I swapped this out for a 45lb CQR and 40 fathoms of 3/8" chain. Due to the design of the boat this made almost no difference to the trim, and the extra weight forward meant we punched through any seas. Dropping that anchor and 4 to 1 of chain meant we never ever dragged. Sadly, today, many boaters just have no idea how to anchor. Odd as it may seem, I started my west coast sailing at a time when there were NO marinas! You went to a secliuded bay and dropped the anchor...simple as that.
The biggest thing I find missing from the new boat market is strength. A solid glass hull with internal ballast or a substantial keel stub and a skeg-hung rudder. Not everyone needs that kind of strength, but many do and they are limited to buying older boats.
Check out the Outbound 46. I've been on 3 of them now at various boat shows, they are perfect (in my opinion). If I ever win the lottery that's my first purchase lol. Solid glass hull, no wood core on the decks, cutter rig, no keel bolts. After going on some of the more production style boats at the show you can really tell the fit and finish of the outbound just doesn't compare to the Catalina's, hunter and defour etc....
I'm looking forward to Kraken being around long enough to purchase a used one, for this reason. Integrated keel (they call it a Zero Keel,) skeg hung rudder, extra thick and strong hull, and an emphasis on safety throughout. Gotta' pay for all that safety, though...
That's why I am so glad (and proud) to own an Island Packet!
Great segment, of course i have a 1988 Catalina 36 and agree with all your comments. I’ve toured the Catalina factory twice in the past 40 years (78 years old) and have always been impressed with how Frank Butler has taken suggestions from owners and incorporated them into their boats. Thanks for reassurance to keep my wife happy. Gallivant northern Lake Michigan Escanaba Yacht Club Capt Hansen
Thanks for watching!
I'm with ya buddy on Catalina. My best friend had a Cat 30 we sailed all over the place. We even took her to the Bahamas from Charleston. I know that boat was not designed for off shore but we were young and not so intelligent. That boat was rock solid. Can't tell you how many times we found the bottom the hard way on her when we were new to sailing. That boat took a beating from us and kept on going. God I miss those days.
Rocna Vulcans work well with bowsprits. Great anchor, better test results than original Rocna
Sorry Tim, if Catalina ever went public the first thing that would happen is that some giant faceless corporation would acquire it and secondly the bean counters would reduce the build cost to the absolute minimum. Within twelve months the quality would be the same shit you are now used to seeing from Bav, Ben or Jen, I don't even include Dufour any more as they are built to such a low standard that no one should consider them.
God bless you for bringing these points up. The comment about the sole is so appropriate. It’s one thing to have to take steps up and down on the sole if you’re in something like a Jeanneau 45 or 50 DS, but if you’re not in a deck salon and are supposed to have an all level cabin floor, an uneven sole is ridiculous! And, you’re correct. Back stays are there for a reason. To strengthen the overall rig. You’re also correct. Sharp corners have no place on the interior of a sailing vessel. I understand your comments about the bow sprits with integrated anchor rollers and I agree because the boat probably left the factory with two light of an anchor to use and calmly sleep through the night on the hook. But you didn’t mention the biggest POS “feature“ of all on so many new production sailing vessels. That would be a forward placed in-line galley. Try standing there without strapping yourself in while cooking underway. I don’t care how flat the seas (the waters on your lake) are, the boat is going to roll some. Nothing in the world is better than a U-shaped or if you can’t get that an L-shaped galley so you can brace yourself in the back without having to tie yourself up to the sometimes oh so hot stove (that believe me, you don’t want to be rolled into). The IMHO insanity of catamarans has caused mini modern new monohulls to also feel like they need to be floating condos. That’s great when you’re a marina queen, but it’s not going to do you any darn good when you’re anchored or underway.
Watching more now… And God bless you for the comments about the biggest anchor and the most chain and none of this combined nylon rode and chain nonsense and if you use it a bridal or at least a snubber on a monohull, not a catamaran. There’s nothing I hate more than being woken up at 2 AM because the anchor alarm is going off because I’m dragging or even worse than someone around me at an anchorage is dragging and coming right at me and is too oblivious (a.k.a. stupid) to realize it.
^^^This, this, this. I was looking in the comments for what I wanted to say, and here it was. There's nothing worse than waking up at 3am when the wind picks up, you hear the howling of the wind, and are wondering if you're going to discover your neighbours or the shore a little sooner than you'd like. And linear galleys just turn me off of any design that has them. Whoever is prepping anything underway needs to be able to brace themselves. Even if the seas are calm, and the boat isn't rolling in swell, those down below can't see the wake from the last freighter, motoryacht, etc. that went by 20 min ago, and is about to toss the boat around. And if you couple that with sharp corners? I hope someone on board has the ability and equipment to stitch someone up.
Great points, Tim. The sharp edges of the interior on these new boats is thoughtless - but my biggest complaint echoes yours - the insufficiently sized anchor windlass and puny anchor rollers which hardly allow a lunch hook let alone a proper cruising anchor with accompanying chain rode. Plus, the grid keel attachment and lack of a watertight bulkhead to seal off the rudder post makes me a bit nervous if a boat hits something.
I have a '87 Catalina 34. Solid, thick fibrerglass hull, and all the points you make. And even though it's coming up on 40 years old, it doesn't look dated. Very, very happy with it.
I’ve been in the boat business for almost forty years and always enjoy and generally agree with all your observations. Dufours really are the poster kids for the charter fleet mentality. Sometime we’ll have to discuss your ideas about encapsulated keels though.
I have a split-backstay on my Hunter. It supports a solar panel above my head (as i step out of the walk-thru transom). The boom hangs (when the mainsail is down), and i can bend my mast back!
Tim, always appreciate the content. However, I have to take issue on your comments about stepping a standard vs B&R rig, the latter being more difficult because of “extra rigging” when in fact there is less rigging during the stepping process and less to do during the tuning of the rig if you’ve set the cross stays up correctly on the hard. A B&G rig has the same forestay and outer and inner side stays as a standard rig, while a standard rig has additional back stay attachment(s), either 1 or 2 depending on whether split or single attachment points. Yes, the B&R rig can be challenging to tune and requires extra care when on the hard. Once stepped, the rest is easier than on a standard rig as your focus remains entirely on getting the mast to stand straight up side to side rather than worrying about rake which is taken care of on the hard. Many high performance sail boats use B&R rigs. On recreational boats, few owners understand these rigs well enough to tension them correctly, but with a little education IMO are easier to tune than standard rigs. On a recreational boat I do wish I had the ability to tension a back stay with an adjuster (manual or hydraulic) to add forestay tension when going up wind. As a result, I won’t be racing these in around the cans club races unless adding running back stays, but that adds complexity for a cruising boat. Sorry for the long and rambling post. Short version is I think the B&R rig is very appropriate for coastal and ocean cruising as it is simple. You just need to understand where it will limit sailing performance and how you’ll manage that in your sailing.
Great video, as you've often stated Catalina listens to their owners, stylish euro trends don't belong on sailboats. One other thing that comes to mind are those ridiculous vessel sinks used in many of todays boat's heads.
It's about time someone said to these IKEA floats, "Get off my lawn!" And I am here for it.
I now own a Catalina and you are bang on your comments! Built for the sailor!
I don't know whether it's an irrational fear or not, but I hate ports in the sides of the hull! I get that they can be sexy and bring a lot of light in, but I'm just not down with breaching the integrity of the hull for fashion.
I'd also like to see a couple of modern day true pilothouse motorsailers on the market. Island Packet had the SP Cruiser, but I never felt it made particularly good use of the interior volume for its size. Something like a fresh design Nauticat would be ideal.
My father used to have a sailboat, an older one built by Uffa Fox in England. The boats I’m seeing today look to have under built tackle, just designs that were designed by people who have never been to sea.
Rocna also makes the Vulcan, which does not have a roll bar, is not too expensive and offers great holding. But is has a curved shank that might not fit every bow roller.
You're totally right. On my opinion the worst is the spade rudder and the saildrive. Safety zero.
I have been on sailboats since I was brand new in 1958. I have sailed and raced boats built in the 1930s and today's modern boats and everything in between. For cruising I want a boat that has a keel that can withstand a really bad grounding and a rudder that has heavy bearings in BOTH ends. Since we are talking about what you want, we include a strong and proven rig as well. In addition, I want Bal./Displ. > 35. Light boats with stability that are based on wide flat hulls do not provide much comfort on the ocean.
Peninsula style aft berths!! this is a huge "must have" in our next boat. We don't want to be in the V berth and don't want to be climbing over each other lf we have to get up at night or are up earlier in the morning.
Hard corners are a hard No!
I agree on all accounts. I also appreciate anyone building boats because it has to be a labor of love since there’s not much margin. However, we boat buyers need to buy and demand good value, attention to detail and buy boats that are quality…well done Catalina! If you look at catamarans I suggest reviewing Antares👍 beautiful workmanship, rounded corners, over engineered and uncompromising…nothing is perfect but they build quality. I lived on one
Tim, I'm with you on boat interiors. Especially corners on cabinetry, a real problem in a seaway! I've seen some beautiful European boats, that I would fire the interior design staff. A few of the French builders, have smartened up in the last few years.
Remember they are usually selling to novices who have the $ but not the experience . To them they see themselves showing off to friends as they entertain in a modern stylish apartment .
@@faircompetition1203 Not really, most boat are sold to charter or leisure sailing in good weather. So that's what you are mostly going to see boats geared towards. Ultimately, if you want dedicated liveaboard boat, or one to go around world with, you want to refit, buy or build boat for that.
And you do actually see many boat builders making boats for this, but it's not the big companies that focus on the biggest market.
I own a 1987 Catalina 36 and it has all of the features that the new one has that was featured in the video. I love my boat and have never regretted the purchase. I I were in the market for a brand new production coastal cruiser again, I’d go straight to Catalina.
One thing I noticed as a retired racer is the number of new boats with the primary and jib winched jammed into a little space directly in front of the helms. The concept is that the driver on a short handed boat can work the sail trim as well. However, there is not enough elbow room to work a winch handle, so you end up relying on the power controls. Also, no separate halyard winches on the coach roof, so you end up constantly wrapping and unwrapping different lines. Yes you save the cost of installing those extra winches, but you also end up fighting a tangle of lines. In an emergency, not cool!
I am thankful for my old Wauquiez 41s- very well built, and fast. This is for genuine sailors - at least I think!
Good list! My boat, a Hanse, had a version of "patchwork floors", nice to be able to screw out a piese to inspect or install stuff underneath, but that all falls apart when parts of the panels in places go underneath the "furniture" The sqeaking was not to bad, and I sorted out most of it by adding wax, but that is annoying to have to do too.
I've sailed a lot of Catalina boats. I think they are good. I agree with you on the anchor. You have to sleep. The anchor on the Beneteau looks too small.
Good man for being bold.
Yacht interior specialist here with 50 years experience. The hard, sharp corner details started in superyacht design in the early 2000's. I built a lot of them. And it wasn't a huge problem on 135' motoryachts; they are like a house. But on a little old 40' "ocean going" sailboat, that is an insane design decision. The other thing, as in that Dufour Tim featured, are the fiddles. Again on a big gin palace, 5mm high fiddles will work... you have a crew to clean up. But it's just stupid on a sailboat.
What are fiddles?
@@peterdeluca1921 They're the upstand bit of millwork around the edges of counters, desks, and other cabinetry that not only stop things sliding off in a seaway, but also provide handholds to crew going down below while underway. Look at the nav desk at 9:13 vs the one at 4:43.
I "HATE" the New Ikea interiors YUK !
Totally agree... I just commented on the same point prior to reading your comment.
@ralphw1804 call me old fashion. I want that beautiful deep rustic feel. It gives the impression of a solid well built boat. I want that Smell. And if you gotta ask what that is. I don't want to know you lol. I wanna feel like i am on a SAIL BOAT. . Peace brother
Wow this is full of information! Just in time for us that are rebuilding our catamaran! Thank you!!!
Learned more stuff about the brand new sailer I will never own. Boat show in Seattle this weekend. Won't buy one there either. But I like your critique style. Thanks for another worthy upload. Bon voyage.
Totally agree! The wife and i went to the boat show a few years back bc we were thinking about upgrading our 25yr old hunter to something bigger. Anyhow after hours, the only boats we liked for many of the reasons you highlighted, were the a new catalina and a 2008 jeanneau 49. Hilariously the brand new beneteau already had a broken floorboard at the show 😂. Anyway after seeing the feature/cost ratio, our old hunter with a b&r seemed perfect for our brand of island hopping.
Nice video, some great points. We need the bowsprit to moor bow against the shore in Scandinavia but like you said it's also great to fly the code 0 and Gennaker. For the anchor we upgraded from a Delta 15kg to a Rocna vulcan 20kg. The Ultra is a great anchor but isn't the only one, the Vulcan comes at a reasonable price. In the future if we go further afield with a small modification we can upgrade to a Vulcan 25kg, if you check Lady Panope's anchor test video, it also came out as no.1 in test. Don't mean to disagree with anything but just to add some info. Cheers
Great commentary, I agree with all your comments. What about the ability for a spinnaker, not all offer this either on their cruising yachts. Keep up the great work and keep the dream alive.
The Beneteau and Jeanneau yachts without backstays aren’t B&R rigs, so don’t have additional diagonals. These yachts sail extremely well running deep with the headsail poled out. However, they are configured with the GRP bowsprit to use Assymetric spinnakers to broad reach and gybe downwind. Code 0’s are not ‘downwind’ sails. They are intended for angles from 80 to 120 degrees true wind angle. Floor panels are much better for service and maintenance and small shims can be used to eliminate squeeking very easily
boat comes with a code zero for downwind sailing but spreaders that won't let you pay out the main down wind ... Great video, thank you.
Ha, seems like the question to old boat, new boat, whatever... is quite often a Catalina! Hopefully, I'll be moving from a series of Hobies to my first keel boat this year and it'll likely be a used Catalina 22 or 25.
I do not own a Catalina (Ericson and Hunter), but I sail with a friend who has a C22 and a C25. I would suggest the C25 if you can: not any harder to launch, sail, dock and it is more comfortable and pleasant to sail..
Pretty sure if you’re buying one of these brand new, you’re not worried about the cost of an Ultra anchor.
Great video and can't agree with you more. We LOVE our Catalina Morgan 440! 'Rum Theory"
Hey Tim
You showed a X-Yachts with a bowsprit. X-Yachts does not necessarily come with a bowsprit, it depends on how you customise it. The X-range also comes with a backstay, and the interior can be customised as you like.
for 800,000 plus grand I bloody hope so!
I totally agree with your pet peeves... particularly the cheap floors and square sharp corners. One that you missed is how most new boats look super cheap materials in their interiors ... flat laminate MDF-like finishing... cheap, cheap, cheap!
Good episode...but that maybe because I agree with all your observations!
NZ rigger here. We’re seeing newer Lagoons with lighter (lower load rating) deck hardware, and have lessened the sailing specs ie furling at 15knot instead of the usual 20k. Imho the hardware is under-rated for pacific blue water sailing.
Really??? That's scary!
@@LadyKSailing wrt no backstay, on the larger rigs when we see premature diagonal failures (mostly at the swage), the shrouds are slackened to service w/o mast removal. Having a backstay gives us additional security in this instance but the work-around is to use a halyard(s) to secure the rig. For B&R type rig the backstay is redundancy, and tuning is actually quite easy once you understand the structure, so the sailor needs to choose their comfort level in maintaining/inspecting the rig vs safety (and redundancy) at sea.
The Catalina still uses a plywood inlay for the sole and is pieced together with screws in the corners. I do agree though, at the show this past October they were overall very impressive.
You hit all the right points. The floors/soles, and the new bow anchor roller is a definitely a turn off for me. Granted, I'll never be able to buy any of those boats you mentioned, and if I did, I'd go for an older Catalina 42 Mark II for sure. Don't care of the dual helms, or no backstay. Sure nice, but I want my boat less complicated and user friendly maintenance. Besides, I don't to parties on my boat, so the single helm works for me. Great video, and I hope those guys listen, and take Catalina's hints.
Always useful insight from this channel 👍
Thank you for watching!
Tim, I met you at the Annapolis show on the Catalina dock, and I couldn't agree more with your recommendation. Seeing the Catalinas was my high priority second stop after entering the show. That said, I went straight there from the other side of the harbor where I had just visited Tartan (I'm a former T-27 owner and I miss that boat every season). I don't recall the sprit configuration, but Tartan is the other monohull I would consider if I win the lottery and can afford to buy new.
- Adam
Yes for sure!!! Tartan is awesome!!
Ever since I heard the phrase Catalina Smile I wrote them off as the worst offenders in keep separation. I would love to be wrong though because I feel they can fit a lot of good space and quality into a boat.
I have a Jeanneau 409 with back stays at the corners that are out of the way, sweep back but not extreme spreaders, a sectioned sole that allows access for storage, HVAC water pump that allows easy burping, access to clean the bilge sections for oder control,and a steel bow sprint that houses a Spade anchor and a Code 0.
As a Catalina man myself, I laughed in agreement when you did the reveal
Hi Tim! Just want to say Yup to all that. Our last Dufour rental, 2yrs old, squeaked from stem to stern… looks cool in the photos tho🙄. Also, the only photo I took of the interior of the Catalina(s) in Annapolis last year was of the floor! That how strikingly different a good one appears to me in this market, BUT… for “nice” floor, the Tartan(s) won the day.
Not that I can afford a brand new boat, but the #1 thing I'd want (besides what you mentioned) is a desk to use as a workspace, with a nice work chair. Catalina 36 had a nice thing going with a chair that swivels and has back support. I don't know if they still offer that.
If I end up designing my own boat (after winning the lottery), I'd make a deal with SecretLab for good seating 😂
Agreed, although the outbound yachts are fantastic the 46 is my favorite
I was on the outboaund and loved it! Did a spot on practical sailor about it. Lovely boat!
Great video. Thank you. White backdrop is a bit bright just fyi.
How do you feel about Island Packets? The floors are solid wood and grooved to collect juju no that would otherwise scratch the floor . They come with a double anchor roller and a gypsy-windlass combo. All solid wood furniture handmade with dovetail joints. Available add-ons include hard dodger and arch with Davis etc. All through hull valves are brass and are double clamped. The hull is made very strong. I love the idea that the rudder is protected and that the keel is integral, draws very little, and is full of real lead. Mattresses have real springs.
They are supposedly slow, indestructible bomb proof, and have the best motion on the ocean. More expensive too.
What do you think of these old fashioned things in a new boat?
Two concepts keep me up at night. Do they work? Add on foils for a little lift and stability and infinite loop props for less cavitation at sea
As a sailboat dealer I sold Freedom Yachts for a while with NO stays. Biggest disadvantage was no backstay to hold onto while peeing off the stern. Since I often moved boats by myself, this was a huge concern.
I didn't even think of that!!!
Wood boat, gaff cutter rig, mast tabernacle. I can raise and lower the mast while under way. Also have both rocna and mantis anchors.
I like the idea that the bilge is immediately accessible on a boat, for mopping up and repairs. I've never confronted the idea that the floor is a big immobile object. Sharp edges? That curse is not limited to new sailboats. I knew a gentleman, who fabricated a lot of deadly sharp edges, had bad accidents, and had others around him hurt. Sharp edges are hauty and sometimes an attraction. A lack of sharp edges, gated stairs, safe stove and outlets is called baby safe.
Great video. Nice information presented in a concise manner!
I'm surprised that you were hesitant to mention Catalina, since IMHO, they have been leading in boat construction quality for some time (in perspective, not super yacht quality league) . A lot of the European brands have started to become "Ikea" boat, with their less than stellar construction (jigsaw floors, pointy corners, fewer storage cabinets, etc.). I agree with all your points, although the bowsprit anchor roller thing is more about if they implemented it correctly, and many of the European ones have not (maybe they're primarily day sailors). One point missed was that a number of the boats these days have also been getting rid of the mainsail "hard" traveler and are now using the all rope German traveler setup. For trimming, I find this to be a no-sale for me.
Oh my dog, Tim, you echo my opinion exactly.
Great commentary, thanks from NZ
I think Tim's last name is Catalina. Joking!!! Love the content. Well thought out and very informative. Thanks for what you do!
Thanks for watching!
I agree with everything you said EXCEPT your issue with B&R back stayless rigs. The complexity you claim for stepping and unstepping the mast is unjustified. You need to witness and/or do one yourself. You will find B&R rigs to be simpler without a back stay. The additional shrouds provide significant stability and redundancy in the event of any failure.
As for sailing deep down wind with a B&R rig it performs just as well (even better in most circumstances) as any rig with a back stay. Out here on the west coast I have sailed deep down wind on both Hunter 41 and 45 boats with B&R rigs and they are just fine. Sure the main sail is laid up against the spreaders but it is protected with spreader patches and as long as the boat is handled properly there is no problem. The main sail does not have to be boomed out at 90° in order to achieve great performance. It's already a huge sail, bigger by far than most other boats that have back stays. As for wear and tear, I have had sails last 13 to 14 years with regular downwind and broad reach use on B&R rigs and the worst side effect are the dark stains on the spreader patches on the main sail. No other issues whatsoever. And because of the large main sail, Hunters outperform most other boats with small mains in deep downwind runs without a spinnaker or Code Zero.
We have two of them in our club I have stepped every year.. It takes us twice as long as the sloops.
The one design 35 has no backstay but you can flex the spar for upwind performance via a hydraulic forestay.
These are all valid issues with new boats, all to do with making them cheaper. The biggest issue I have with these production yachts is, when they bond a grid on with some type of bonding compound and not glassed in. But if you don’t wanna pay for a properly built yacht, then you buy an elcheapo production boat that’s glued together with crazy glue.
Learning a bunch from you. I’m
Rocking on Scott’s flat lake grass valley California at 3000’ on my MacGregor 26D. Arrr
I’m on board for the new Catalina nice boat. I miss the wood and very cozy interior spaces.
The Dufour on the thumbnail was perfect for a video with this title.
Can"t think of any manufacturer where both the designers and the workers care as little about making a quality product.
As for no backstay, this has one major benefit, you can use battened squaretop sails and a furling boom.
Otherwise i agree with your points.
I'll probably never have enough money for a new boat. Nevertheless, it is nice to see them and compare them with our waarschip 870. There is so much luxury on a new boat. Even though we don't have that and our boat costs less than 10,000 euros, we feel like we have the world to reach every time we are sailing.
The best RV I ever owned was a 2001 Holiday Rambler. Nothing since that I've owned has come close to that. Its like that era weas the golden age of RV building. Do sail boats have anything like that? A time where the build quality and technology matched perfectly?
Biggest problem with ANY new boat is that in 5 years it will be worth 50% of new. One is literally lighting a pile of cash on fire anytime one buys new.
I knew that was coming! Something’s just work.
Catalina. Hmmm…. I’m beginning to change my “Tupperware boat” opinion on these vessels. I agree big time with the more than specs call for approach to sailing equipment. Even the boat itself should be capable of more than my intended use.
You should tour the 426. Open all the lockers and really dig in deep and see what they're all about these days. I am always impressed when I start tearing into a Catalina today
What about Rocna Vulcan? Or spade? You don’t need a stainless Ultra to get rid of the rollbar.
I delivered a big beneteau from Cabo to SF. The owner was complaining about poor engine performance. After some extensive troubleshooting I found that the fuel pickup tube in the tank was clogged with plastic shavings. The factory had neglected to vacuum out the shavings after tapping the holes for the fittings. Really poor QC. This simple step could have caused loss of engine at a really bad moment.
Delivery crew on a brand new £500k yacht from the makers yard to the new owner. More snags than you can shake a big stick at. Worst of all, the in mast furling main deployed, but as the wind increased proved almost impossible to retract into the mast. The electric motor to do this had a faulty button. We shorted the system and got the sail half in. Then with deteriorating weather we went to the mast and with a lot of muscle managed to get it right in. Yes, a £500k yacht. You could have bought 4 Porsche 9-11s, arguably far more complicated than a yacht, for the same money and all would have worked perfectly!
Wow!
Drum roll.... Catalina!!! I like Catalina sailboats, I agree with you.
And what of all the box side catamarans meeting many of your criticisms with the addition of hideously high saloon cabins with a flying bridge on top, pushing the mainsail boom aloft to look like it's the height of the top spar on a square-rigged sailing ship?
Great considerations.
A point I hate on modern sailboats is to have the small boat, I forgot the name for now... dingy, inside a garage. I always prefer the suspended version. In case of sinking, or Orkas, we won't be able to get that little savior from the garage. Suspended, it's just cut the lines, go to the life-savior raft, and pray to reach it, the dingy, when the bigger problem takes a break.
I think you would like one Hallberg Rassy😂😂😂😂
I’ve just bought one. A beautifully refurbished Rasmus 35 from 1972. Knowing that solid keel is underneath me is bliss. I wouldn’t swap her for something built yesterday!
The reality is, this is all driven by cost of production. To build a production boat to the level of quality generally found 20 years ago would make it entirely unaffordable/marketable to the mass consumer base. Not making excuses for the manufacturers, but simply a reality. Even the historically high quality builders are not immune. Was on a Halberg Rassy at the Annapolis boat show last fall and could tell that they now have to build to a price point and make some compromises on quality. Like others have suggested, we found a 13 year old boat that we knew was solidly built with quality fixtures, fittings and hardware and then went thru a year long refit process to make her new again, spending another 50% over our initial purchase price (see our RUclips channel). Doesn’t work economically for a lot of boats, but if you pick the right boat and get it at the right price, you can end up with a boat you can be proud of that will serve you well.
REALLY good points. why on earth are ANY boats being made with sharp corners?
I wish they brought back central cockpits to have a big aft cabin
I wish someone still made a good inland bay or lake cruiser in the 25 foot range. Or have I missed it? I would like for you to give us your thoughts on good boats in that size range for a famiiy who doesn’t plan to sail far offshore. Thanks.
Oooh nice e46! Nice rims, especially those M3 CSL ones😮
Please do a shannon review, i fell they are mostly ignored despite their quality.
Realistische visie op moderne yachten.
Het is veel shit😢.
Bedankt voor al het onderzoek 🎉😊.
An opinionated discussion with EXCELLENT points! The square corners are dangerous! That wide open expanse of an interior should come with flying lessons. How far can you fly? Imagine the boat bumped onto it's side by a big wave, if you're not holding on (and handholds look sparse), you'll FLY! It's the landing that hurts! Glitzy boats suited up as a condo. Not seaworthy.
What I like to see? Great engine access. No hidden corners of the hull, areas of the hull inaccessible in an emergency is a sinking waiting to happen. All the boats built with molded interior furniture are prone to this problem! Builders love them, presto! Instant interior! Worst is when electrical and plumbing fittings are attached to the interior molding BEFORE installation. Easy for the manufacturer, brutal for any troubleshooting or repair. I've seen hoses and wiring disappear under sole, not to be seen again for many feet. If you can't get to it, how are you supposed to repair it?
Are the fuel tanks built in such that major surgery has to happen to change them out? How about access to the fresh water tank interior? Tank sections baffled such that cleanouts are impossible? Chain plates and deck fittings impossible to reach or inspect? Can't find the backing plates for stanchions? Steering gear that requires a skinny trained monkey to reach? Tall lifelines! Keeping the crew aboard is important! Really important. Lifelines that come up to your knee are unacceptable and dangerous.
Plenty more bugaboos to find. What looks good at a boat show with that huge carpeted entry might not look so good in a gale, with the boat stood on it's ears. Of course, if one plans to spend most of the time tied to dock, then great, go for it!