Would an "All Techs" civ be any good?
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- What if I told you that I'd give you every tech but take away every civilization bonus and unique tech? Would you take that trade?
0:59 Wide tech tree examples
2:35 Castle Age
4:35 Unique Units
6:55 Imperial Age
9:15 Final thoughts
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
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Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition
I feel like this all speaks to how well designed most civs are these days. Many of those bonuses seem underwhelming at first but change the way they are played to a great extent and give them unique strengths, much more so than having all the techs without civ bonuses would.
Listening to spirit of the law have me +50% work rate irl for absolutely no cost.
your personal Bonus😂
Channel bonus 😂
It's the passive team bonus.
IT GIVES ME A 200% PROCASTINATION BONUS FOR ME
...
I THINK THIS BONUS IS BUGGED
yes but you have to consider the setup cost. It might take up to a few minutes to pick and choose a certain video to watch, which cuts into your overall productivity. For relatively small tasks, this setup cost might outweigh the +50% bonus
Remember that the "Full Tech" check list on scenario editor don't remove any civ bonuses and unique techs. So maybe you can make a follow up episode about which civs that could go really broken without any tech tree restriction.
And also you can made follow up episode about what if every single civ bonuses and tech tree available are combine into a single most broken civs ever (Which is possible through triggers and Civ builders)
I also saw the AOE2 community on T90 channel doing the similar thing with the later in which we have 8 player game sharing each other civ bonuses and buff it 10 times. It creates some silly gameplays like Hindustanis Camel with Gurjaras buff that just destroy every building like nothing
I didn't thought about it that much, and I might be biased because I like archer civs, but just giving Chinese the Bombard Cannon and Siege Ingeniers sounds a bit crazy. Also, fully upgraded Champions and Stable Units... And of course, the discount on all technologies in a All techs civs is crazy.
There are definitly a few. Franks with bloodlines, Byzantines with bloodlines and the final attack upgrade, Teutons with bracer, Husars and siege rams, Vikings and Britons with Thumb Ring, Romans with most imperial age techs, spanish with siege engineers ...
I was just about to mention this! I knew this was a thing in SWGB, but didn't know for sure if it was true in AOE2 as well (though it's usually safe to assume if it is applied to one, it applies to both as same engine, same devs, kinda just new skin)
@@drakmendoa Sicilian Paladin that takes less damage from Halberdier and only take 1 damage from Arbalester. Also the Dravidian Cavalry which basically makes Teutonic Knight and Boyar main strength completely useless
LOVE the tiger coming in at 3:34 to defend their homeland. Rest well, sweet kitty.
Well spotted, I had to go back!
Do u have adhd? Just curious 😂
spanish conquistadors don't lose their faster attack speed, it isn't effected by the spanish bonus and just has a higher base attack speed
Some more ideas for videos like this:
-What civ would be best with a different civ's unique unit?
-What 2 civs combined into 1 (getting all the civ bonuses/unique units/techs of each constituent civ plus access to any tech either of them has access to) would be best?
-Same as the previous one, but instead of getting access to any tech either constituent civ has access to, they only have access to techs *both* constituent civs have access to individually. I.e. you're sort of doing the reverse of the all-tech mode, getting more civ bonuses in exchange for an even more limited tech tree than usual.
Imagine Gurjara Tarkans running under your castle or Malian Monaspa with Farimba... There are so many options with the unique units.
This is a great tournament idea - all techs or all techs + civ bonuses. I am sure both ideas when given enough time and crazy creative people can create some outstanding games.
All techs +civ bonuses would be pretty awesome. Overpowered for sure. Think goths with full armor tech trees, stone walls etc
Civs with big missing units/techs compensated with strong UTs and bonuses would be a monster. Imagine Polish paladins that cost -60% gold, or Dravidian paladins with wootz steel.
@@Duke_of_Lorraine Celt Eagles with +15% movespeed on top of squires, little racecars
@@maudiojunky laughs in cuman hussars with the cav speed tech on top of their bonus.
@@Duke_of_Lorraine oooo think French elephants, insane health
Let me guess. "It Depends"
"No, it'd be pretty awful"
The actual answer is "overall no"
In AOE2 civ bonuses are pretty much always better then tech tree at least without considering unique techs. The Byzantines have one of the most open tech trees in the game (I think the Saracens are ahead of them by 1 or 2 techs) and some of the worst civ bonuses in the game as a result they are an awful civ.
The Byzantines also have one of the worst pairs of unique techs in the game. I would also argue one of the worst team bonuses in the game.
@@doomdimensiondweller5627 who considers them an awful civ? I've never heard this and have seen them drafted plenty in pro tournaments, including Red Bull Wololo
@@doomdimensiondweller5627byzantines are definitely a weak civilization in several metric but saying there awful may be going too far
Remember that mod that let you make your own civilizations?
This is kind of a related question: How much would each technology and each bonuses worth taking in count the win rate of each civilization as their total value?
Could be interesting as a video and as a way to balance the civ making mechanic of that mod
Campaign idea for the All Tech CIV: They realize they are in a computer game and draw the ire of all other civs. Each level is fighting one expansion of civilizations, with the final level getting overwhelmed by all.
Or impossible combinations of unique units.
New civilization. Mercenaries. No team bonus aside from having access to all non unique units/techs. They have no unique unit and no unique techs.
Would be interesting to see this tested given this video's information. I could see them being underwhelming but good for newbies to learn the game.
What about having all shared units for a bonus?
@@zacariasdelalcazar8873 So Imperial Skirms, Condottieri and Genitours? Brutal, I'd love it
Edit: Question? Would they get the Cuman Mercenaries tech?
@@zacariasdelalcazar8873 This idea, sounds amazing! I love the idea, and honestly a Mercenary Civ seems pretty cool to me!
@@zacariasdelalcazar8873 was thing about a price and/or time reduction on techs buty yours is just as good
If they needed an early game boost, it might be interesting to start them with Spies already researched. Would fit thematically with Mercenaries and would not give any additional actual power, but would allow them to properly prepare for what their opponents would be throwing at them early game.
I remember doing full tech tree on AoE1 when I was little, but Age of Kings having unique units got me to actually start playing civs in AoE2. Fittingly, the Byzantines and their extensive looking tech tree were my original fav before getting more adventurous 😂
Spirit: Talks about non-existing unit combos. My Brain: Random Bs go!!!!
This all tech civ would be a scary water map civ, with a dangerous ship comp. It would just lack a wood bonus.
With all techs you've also got the necessary counters to anyone in a 1v1. You can go Infantry vs Gujaras, go with Light Cav against Bohemians etc.
Question is, how big of an eco advantage is it to use counter units
why is light cav a good idear against bohemians? they have really strong halbs. Gujaras only get spearman, maybe thats what you mean
@@timoflo369 Wagons and Monks.
going feudal scouts and being the only civ able to pivot to eagles against all their spears is insane tho
You don't pivot to eagles vs spears though. You add MAA, archers or skirms. All 3 deal with spears better
@@kartiksaraf4676 the worst unit comp u can have defending against eagle raids is spears
@@Rosiecringe Nah I think skirms do just as bad if not worse
With such a huge pivot of going from scouts or knights to eagles is much more expensive than going from spears/pikes to mma
@@kartiksaraf4676 MAA requires an upgrade, and archers or skirms require a third building. If you have scouts you already have a barracks and eagle scouts avalible, plus they could join your raiding, while costing the same food as a skirm.
You would probably do a combined scout cav + eagle first attack as you can train two eagle scouts with your starting gold and only set you back less than one scout. Not to mention the speed, You can queue the eagle scout as soon as you hit feudal, then two eagle scouts by the time you have your first scout cavalry.
I feel like siege is going to be one of the all techs strength. Because of how rare it is to have all the siege units and techs unlocked.
Siege is onlycore support.
So no.
Even the best siege civs cant go pure siege.
Nearly always, they are good due to a siege + unit combo.
And mainly because that combo includes units with bonuses.
@@ethribin4188 Would you be happy with Spanish if they also had Siege Engineers and SO late game?
Not really, but there are only a few civs who have bombard cannon + siege onager. So it’s not the worse thing ever, plus siege ram eating arrows could be nice.
And one of the few strengths of an all techs civ has is fully upgraded trash. And Siege + Trash is not bad for late game pushing.
@@EagleTopGamingthat's better than all techs, since spanish cannons fire faster
I would probably give the Alltech Civ some Chakram Throwers. Those can get quite oppressive, even though Gurjaras lack Blast Furnace and Squires. Imagine them being fully upgraded.....
And given the feudal Camel Scout and Shrivamsha (both being Blast Furnace enjoyers). Gurjaras are easily the most broken all-tech civ.
This was a really good overview of combat, but I would have liked to see some discussion on the eco side. An all tech civ would be at a disadvantage because it doesn't have any civ eco bonuses, but getting all eco upgrades might make up for that
I remember asking you this question via email years ago! Nice to see a video breaking it down
I remember playing all tech at an early age and never realizing that I got no Civ bonuses. Highly interested in a scenerio like this!
I literally ask myself this every time I watch a civ overview from you.
You didn't take into account the most broken all tech + unique unit combo, which would be Persian war elephant with heresy. Then just add some arbalest and siege onagers which they didn't have access to.
You didn't take into account that opponent is not a bot and will attack early too
Not broken at all.
War elephants are resource intensive.
And even with eagles or Hussars as support, heresy just makes a 100 gold unit kill your war elephant.
Not a big problem in general, but also keep in mind all tech civ has NO eco bonus to help.
full monastery + full siege might actually do a lot on its own.
Most interesting fact i got from this video:
Spanish is the only civ with fully teched trash xd
I was recently thinking about the best civ, if you can build your own civ out of all the existing castle techs, civ bonuses, "unit trees" and unique units.
Maybe an interesting idear for a video? Could be hard to come up with interesting combinations tho and maybe its not that interesting cause many civ bonuses actually have a good synergy with their units and unique units
When it's time to choose a UU for all tech civ, you only mentioned one (arambai) of the three UU that would be my top 3 candidates. Two others:
Chakram (my #1 choice): loses access to castle age unique tech (25% food, but expensive tech), but gain access to squires and blast furnace, which you want for other units anyway. The latter would have a dramatic effect, since chakram have low base attack but hit multiple target with 100% pass through damage.
Composite bowman: gains access to thumb ring, does not lose anything.
Imo the true strength of a full tech tree + no bonuses civ would be team games. It would allow you to fill any gaps from your flank/pocket, and never get hard-countered by civ compositions outside of timings.
But for this to work your allies must be ready to help you while your tech tree remains generic in DA/feudal
(Bonus points if someone plays berbers, for that sweet mounted skirms bonus)
Imagine an all-tech civ lacking all civ bonuses, but instead being able to research *all* unique civ castle and imperial age technologies
If the section between 05:07 to 05:50 was supposed to show Unique units that get weaker from All Techs in specifically Castle Age then Cataphracts shouldn't really be there. Byzantines' Logistica and lack of Blast Furnace only comes up in Imperial Age, so, if anything, Castle Age Cataphracts would be better for an All Techs civ.
The answer used to be a fairly unambiguous "no." The lack of economy bonus or UU/UT would've been crippling. I think they've added so many regionally exclusive generic units though that if you can survive to castle with no economy bonus, the world is kind of your oyster in terms of army comp.
One thing I think that could help a lot is the sheer unpredictability of an all techs civ. They get so many different unit choices that their opponent really has no idea what's coming and therefore will have a hard time coming up with an effective counter. Like, if you scout them and see 2 stables, what are they gonna send your way? The answer is you really don't know.
Some other things worth mentioning:
The best baste civ for all-tech would be Gurjara, with zero competition.
They would keep their Camel Scout in Feudal, which gives them hands-down the best early game. They get Shrivamshas, which gives them the best mid-game. And they would get Blast Furnace+Squires Chakrams, giving them easily the best late game. In general, Elephant Archers with Parthian Tactics, are a pretty interesting option. Siege pushes would be a bit more flexible, as you can either go Ram or Armored Elephant, depending on whether you have food or wood. Hitting Imp, you can insta-make Dromons and add Elite Canon Galleon later.
When I was a kid, byzantines was one of my favorite civilisations, for how many units they could make. Very interested in how this video turns out!
Cataphtacts with bloodlines AND blast furnace sounds terrifying
Yeah given the cost and time taken to pick up Logistica this sounds like a straight up upgrade in most situations.
when I hear All Techs, I think only of War Eles + E-Skirms/HCs + Heresy!
Now *this* is something I've always wondered.
I’ve been wondering this since I started playing galactic battlegrounds decades ago. Love your stuff spirit, keep it up
Could you imagine a Galactic Battlegrounds DE… 🥹
If they do a Definitive Edition, they BETTER NOT get outside the Legends continuity.
Would an "all tech" civ still benefit from teammates bonuses? I can imagine an all tech civ with access to imperial skirmishers or condottieri being quite scary
One thing about feudal that wasn't discussed is that there may be some rare situations when the game dictates you should make a unit to counter your opponent, but you don't because you won't have the upgrades later to improve it, so you instead try to make do with something else. For instance, someone playing with the Spanish might avoid making archers in response to a M@A rush because they won't want to invest in a unit they can't upgrade later. All techs solves that problem allowing you to make whatever unit you need at the time. It's probably not enough to make up for the missing bonuses in 99.9% of cases, but still, it's something.
This makes a lot of sense intuitively. You'd expect that in the late game, having all eco upgrades AND unit upgrades would give you great production of a lot of powerful units. Right now, the balance seems to be that you either have a super strong late game eco but are missing some powerful units, or vice versa. Having both would allow the benefit of all of the techs to eventually kick in. In early game though, having all of these techs is less important and thus the bonus is crucial
I guess if you think about the poles for example, they have an insane discount but don't get paladin. having all techs is sort of like you can get fully upgraded paladin, and also have a really strong eco as well, and the later the game goes the more this should kick in
I was literally thinking about this last week and here we are!
I feel like the unique unit would probably fit best as something that can take advantage of the wide open tech tree. You mentioned Arambai being potentially good because they would get access to extra upgrades (due to being a hybrid cav/archer unit), so maybe something like that. Or even something that gets like a small extra HP bonus or something for every blacksmith upgrade researched, even ones that don't otherwise affect them. Something that turns the breadth advantage into a depth one, basically.
I think the best way to play an All-Tech civ would be to focus on Battle Elephants 🐘. Every ele ciz has either an innate or UT bonus, BUT also glaring weakness from the Stable, Blacksmith, Monastary (counter-monk techs), or both. No Ele civ has all Smith techs AND Heresy+Faith. Then to deal with Ele's regular counters: Spear-line, Camels, Mangonel-line, and Monks (who can still kill your 'phants from long range) you could use Archer-line, Bombards with Siege Engineers, maybe a UU like Gbeto could work, or even Mangudai despite lower attack rate.
It wouldn't come online until partway through Castle Age at the earliest, but I love my big 🐘boys so much that I want to believe it would work.
Spirit I hate to say this but the eagle/hand cannon/bbc combo that you theorized... well it loses to all cavalry civs. I wouldn't be surprised if Eagles without any of the Unique techs struggle vs Hussars in even just a 1v1, and with their low rate of fire hand cannons aren't exactly great vs cavalry either.
The developer team should consider implementing a civ like that for some kind of temporary special event, for example have it available for two weeks... it would be interesting to see what would happen.
Personally, I believe it will do a bit better than the video implies, for two reasons:
- Since an All-Tech-Civ has a large amount of reasonable unit combos to choose from, the other side has to invest more into scouting to determine what is actually happening. Also, the All-Tech-Civ will be able to make an ok counter to basically everything the other side has. So, it is both quite adaptive and quite unpredictable
- It also might be more straightforward to play, since you "simply" have everything available, so it might do better than usual on a lower skill rating
The lack of dark age bonuses will still prevent it from doing really well, but ultimately, I would not expect it to have a below average win rate.
This used to be a very underwhelming thing and I totally forgot that steppe lancers and all elephants exist.
Weak Dark into Fuedal but potential dangerous if left alone in Castle into Imperial. I kinda figured it'd be something like that.
The unit combos are what I'm very interested in especially taking into consideration regional units like Steppe Lancers and Eagle Warriors.
I was thinking about Persians be good with War Elephants. Since they would get Heresy. (So they won't get converted by the enemy.) Maybe with archers to counter spears. You could probably throw in BBC to like you suggested. (That was the first thing that came to mind.) I'm sure there are other better ideas though... Edit: Oh right... You could have eagles to counter monks too. XD
I think missionary can still hard counter elephants. They are fast so run away from other units and still be able to kill elephants from range
Wonder if the opposite would even be playable.
All bonuses/ unique units with essentially no tech.
Early game would be rough since most unique things need a Castle at the minimum.
It sounds garbage at first but could create some silly stuff.
Militia with tueton and Malian bonus for armor. Viking and Armenians for hp. A few civs for cost reduction. A few other bonuses sprinkled in.
Unless you are an infantry civ, they might outclass. Unique tech cost would be pretty brutal though.
yes
On second thought, eco bonuses would screw up everything. You'd be a god if they could stack and still incredibly and unfairly OP if they didn't.
Dark age vils would be better at everything. Moving, building, any kind of gathering.
So a civ with only the techs that literally every other civ has , but with every eco bonus ever? That sounds OP, you start with more villagers, get more villagers each age, don't need houses, villagers are more efficient in multiple ways, etc. Someone playing this civ might win every game with a militia rush, though indeed they will lose it if gets to imperial.
When you throw in water, it might be even more interesting. A lot of good land civs have underwhelming navy and vice versa. Keeping in mind that this civ would also get the last wood and gold upgrades.
I had a propose for the original Civilization like Atlantis or Annunaquies...
This civ shouldn't have any passive bonus, no unique techs, instead will have the full tech tree unlocked. But this civ could be access and 5° age, after the research, the civ could be rich a huge catalog of techs which sould be the other civs bonuses (stacked and combined) plus the access of every each unique unit...
Idea maybe for this concept. What if you could only research so many techs before the rest get locked. You then still have options for anything but also maybe some generic eco based bonuses. Or your civ techs allow you to research more things after an initial cap.
OR- your techs cost X% more after a certain percentage of techs per age are researched. So you get, for example, 12 techs in Castle age at normal rates, but each over that adds 1-5% increased cost. Minus time I think.
This civ doesn't need nerfing lmao.
8:11 "A really hard time finding a good response to this"
Scorps and halbs.
full gunpowder is already specifically designed to absolutely annihilate halb siege so that doesn't work lol
unless you were thinking of the knight eagle combo?
The bombard cannons would kinda screw the scorps up but it can be done if played correctly. The goal would be trading the scorps with the hand cannons and try to make the opponent run out of hand cannons to defend against your halbs, once the bombard cannons go down, its over, their army falls apart.
@@flydrop8822 Well if it was just the gunpowder I could maaaaaybe see that happening but the eagles shown there (and realistically any meatshield unit) throws a massive wrench in that plan.
@@Wadusher scorps can handle eagles if you have enough of them, more easily than knights really.
@@flydrop8822 having been the gunpowder side of this matchup myself I only see the scorps winning if the gunpowder guy has some serious rookie numbers on the cannons (meaning, like 5 or so vs 40 scorps - I had way more vs said 40 scorps which ended about as badly for them as you'd expect)
And halbs are definitely NOT an appropriate choice of meatshield for this matchup, I usually prefer hussars as the scorp player here since they're way tankier vs the hand cannons.
Can't wait for your cabinetry business "Spirit of the Drawer"
There is little use in having 'all tech' when you just want to exploit 2-3 strong troops at any given time. Jack of all Trades. Master of none.
I kinda want to see an "all techs" with some reasonably balanced bonuses of some sort, or even a really powerful but lonely unique bonus.
Just something random, i think it would be cool if a new civ or if they add to an existing one where there is a new seige weapon. I feel like there are more medieval siege weapons that could be added and there really hasn't been anything unless you count like siege elephant or hussite wagon. And I'm not suggesting anything super OP or anything, just something to be added to a civ to mix it up.
There is only one way we can find out for sure - make a DLC with one such civ and check stats after a year.
SoTL once again answering the questions nobody had ever asked, but that we can't go without an answer to now that we are aware of them....
Something I would keep in mind is that you have the elephants to work with and heresy. Can’t have those elephants sent right back at you.
i personally feel like an ALL TECH civ should also have ALL unique TECHS. that would be really interesting. sure, many unique techs wouldnt be of much use, but there are likely some really cool combinations to give the all tech civ a huge power boost once it reaches castle age.
I feel like an "All Tech" civ would only have much of an advantage in a few situations. If the map was random, so you didn't know if you'd be getting a wide open or closed map, or a water or land map, then an All Tech civ could be ready to take advantage of whatever natural features the map presented. The other way I could see it being useful is in situations where you can completely hide your opening build from your opponents - something that happens more often in Starcraft than in AOE, as far as I can tell. Being able to do one of many different strategies competently can only outshine a civ than can do a few strategies really well if you can keep them in the dark for as long as possible before showing your hand.
Another thing that would be interesting would be to have a list of what civs would be the strongest if everyone received all techs and a list what civs would be the weakest.
Supposing they kept their bonuses and unique techs.
6:26 Let me stop you right there
When you play as the Incas with all techs enabled and you research Chemistry, the Slinger button is moved elsewhere in the Archery Range menu and you are able to create Hand Cannons
One other thing to note is that the Armenians and Georgians keep the Mule Cart with or without all techs enabled, but they do lose the Fortified Church with all techs enabled. All other civs lose their unique buildings with FTT enabled
I think a fun question is also, what nation would they be?
My first thought is either the Mongols or some sort of Persian/Arabian civ. The Mongols because they took the tech of the places they conquered and they basically went everywhere in Asia and Europe, and the Persians/Arabians because Baghdad was the centre of technology and trade for centuries.
Another contender is the Spanish/Philipines. The Phillipines has a crazy history of being fought over by people ranging from the Tlaxcala to the Ottomans, and the Spanish are responsible for bringing a lot of the parties together.
all tech civ sounds interesting and fun, Id think they would need a new unique unit and maybe a general bonus that only applies for dark age and a weaker version of that bonus for feudal age to make up for it
maybe something like -10% resource cost of everything in dark and -5% in feudal and once castle starts the bonus is over
My fav combo while playing All Tech is Huskarl surprise: filling 15 Siege Rams with Huskarls and sending them all off on the enemy buildings, each with a different target.
I love to see Gurjaras Disc throwers and Fully upgraded Battle Elephants. The natural counter to Battle Elephants are pikes/Halbs, but Chrackrum Throwers shred them so bad. 😃
Thinking about it... I think the main question here becomes "how much economic advantage do you get from having access to any civ's unit counters?"
Because that is your 1 advantage as an all tech civ.
And based on the byzanteens, who are effectivly a counter unit civ,this does not look great...
I would argue that the potential for an all-tech civ to be able to counter anything effectively is that each of those techs cost time and resources. Just because they can pivot to any strategy or unit composition doesn't mean that they can do so efficiently. In 1v1 games, an experienced player should be able to exploit their opponent's weaknesses by going hard into one unit combo. In team games, they would be very vulnerable simply because the smartest counter is for each opponent to take turns raiding them with completely different unit compositions. This would force the all-techs civ to completely retool their own unit selection and tech investments which would ultimately put them so far behind as to be irrelevant. However, if the all-techs civ received strong support from their allies to give them time to boom, then they would be a terrifying force to be reckoned with. And perhaps most importantly of all is the potential for team trade to offset the costs of all that research. Another way of looking at it would be to point out how rapidly any kind of eco-bonus could launch this all-tech civ into the stratosphere. Which then brings us back to team games and those team bonuses that provide eco-bonuses as being among the best allies they could have.
Honestly, I really wish that they would just give us Full Tech Tree with civ bonuses. I know it would be less balanced, but come on, who plays Full Tech Tree for the balance?
A game mode with all unique tech and civ bonuses enabled would be fun
Probably the best bet for the generic civ would be to stick with heavy eagle use in castle age, as well as using them in feudal with archer+eagle, a combo thats quite popular in the last year on arabia for meso. Another good argument for it is that Incas from few years ago after villager nerf were one of the most generic looking civs and yet still performed above average on Arabia due to having Eagles.
Except their eagles would be the worst possible eagles. Inca eagles armour is pretty notable loss for generic civ.
@@FFKonoko But that only comes in late imperial age. I am talking about feudal and castle age.
This is turbo nitpicking but I'd like to point out that Conquistadors are in fact not affected by the Spanish attack speed bonus, they just naturally have the same attack reload time that Spanish HCs have.
Now to have an All-Techs, All Civ-Bonuses, All Unique Units and buildings civ !
combining some of the fast moving infantry seems interesting such as
Gbeto and Eagle Warrior
RattanArcher and EagleWarrior
also SteppeLancer + Missionary would be pretty neat
I think the analysis should have focused more on the unique unit. Some UU are purposely missing certain upgrades, so having all techs makes them dominant: Chakrams with blast furnace, Arambai with all defenses, composite bowmen with thumb ring. Also, I think elephant archers with all upgrades and heresy become quite good too.
Hi Spirit, i hava an idea for a video, "most balanced civs overall", including win rate, how often the people play with it, etc. btw, nice video!
I LOVE YOU I ALWAYS WONDERED ABOUT THIS QUESTION
The full tech tree I don't think fully/wholly/inherently precludes you from EACH sort of civ bonus... that seems like a bit of a stretch.
But for Unique Unit, I'd try for either ***Genitour***... or would be creating a new one that's an archer focussed one. Something like a cheap Karambit, but at range. Would need that quick fast army to get something done against enemy civ bonuses!
When I was a kid I used to always enable all techs, because when I got to the Imperial age I would be annoyed when I realized that I picked a civ that couldn't just spam a million paladins.
The main strength of this civ would be flexibility and impredictability. You KNOW the Franks are going to rely on paladins. But this civ can, whoever it meets, focus on countering the opponent's strengths and being very good no matter the option. Or if it has initiative, you cannot predict what it will use.
Best civ to use as base might be Cumans or Hindustanis. With Cumans you would get Kipchak that are 5% slower than usual but with +1 attack/range which might make them really good. Hindustanis would get an even better version of the Ghulam and FU Imperial Camels, which would of course not have the attack rate increase but would still be a good unit.
All tech civ + Gbeto + Britons shepard bonus. I would dig that.
With All Techs only UUs can make a difference, so let's have a look at UUs that would profit:
- Huskarl (+last armour) - wouldn't make a big difference as 8+2 already keeps all PA reduced to 1 except some very few exceptions like Mangudai and +3 instead of +2 armour won't help much
- Composite Bowman gets Thumbring - doesn't make a huge difference but still something
- Coustillier gets Bloodlines, that's actually a pretty good one
- Arambai get a lot of additional armour (will end up at 3/6)
- Gurjara with Chakram Thrower will have +2 attack, this is again a big game changer (8 vs 6 melee is in many cases double or triple the damage!)
- Ghulam gets +2 armour and would become somewhat like a huskarl
- Persian Elephants get heresy ;)
However the overall winner in my opinion: Cumans Kipchaks with All Tech could be really strong in the late game as even missing Bracer they aren't a bad choice currently and do not benefit really from any upgrade. Also, the cav speed bonus will be replaced again with husbandry, so they end up being "just" 5% slower than currently.
At #2 I would put Gurjara and #3 Arambai, I would rate range units in general better than melee.
the problem with being a jack of all trades in a game like this is that playing the game forces you to pick something and specialize. unless you start in post imp you're investing chungus resources into your units, might as well give them civ bonuses
When i was a kid, i thought "full tech tree" are make 'tree' more lot than usual lol.
This is why in the Barrelgrounds, civs keep their UTs in all techs
Cumans all techs would be interesting. Kipchaks with max range and fully upgraded battle elephants with bombards/siege rams would be nuts. Jannissaries with paladins and siege onagers would also be OP in imp.
A civ that is pretty much generic but has a Castle age unique which reduce 33/50% cost of technologies, then an Imperial Age tech which unlockes all technologies in the game.
0:20 correction. If you pick it in the scenario editor you don't lose the civ bonuses. (At least it was like this unless they changed it)
Spanish used to be a great example of a generic civ, but their +20 gold/tech pushed them away from feeling generic - still, they weren't great early game before that bonus was added. I think Italians (on land maps) would be a better example of a generic civ (they still have age-up discounts, but otherwise have very little going for them in the early game - at least on land maps). Saracens are also somewhat generic, but their market bonuses improves them significantly. Byzantines have several bonuses to help them survive the early game (including cheaper trash and extra building hp), making them a bit of a poor example - the fact that they're still doing poorly despite these bonuses really tells just how bad an all-tech civ would be in Feudal age. The examples for imperial age comparisons also left somewhat to be desired (Chinese have several notable tech tree holes, despite their broad tech tree, and have tech cost discounts. Byzantines are missing bloodlines, but are otherwise a good example. Spanish are missing Xbow. Saracens are a good example though). Goths and Hindustanis do have strong late-games, but those late-games are rather dependent on their bonuses (Goths with their infantry discount, Hindustanis with +2 range hand cannons and imp camels)
I think that in imperial age, an all-tech civ would have solid options in some combos that do already exist: FU arbs and hussars is a great combo that most civs don't have (I believe it's just Magyars and Italians). They'd also have good FU siege, which is also extremely rare (as in, only Ethiopians have that). So they could go FU arbs (or hand cannons or CA) and siege and a trash frontline (either hussars or halbs). The expense of getting siege upgrades would be a bit tricky in 1v1, but still has potential use. They'd also have FU elephants with heresy (something most elephant civs lack). And of course, they have FU monks (which would be helpful in surviving castle age) and every eco tech (which would give them a good late-game economy, even if it's much harder to get there)
I don't think that the transitions would be too unpredictable in practice, but mainly because an all-techs civ would gravitate towards the combos that are hardest to deal with - predictability is only a flaw if they can counter what you're going to do. So against a Teutons player, an all-techs civ will often go cav archers - because what are they going to do about it? It's an exploitable weakness.
I'd still probably want to go cataphracts for the unique unit. IMHO trading logistica for More attack and HP is completely worth it. You still have your anti infantry bonus and resistance to anticav damage but now you don't lose as hard to opposing cavalry and archers.
nice new video!
toss this civ to Clowns and RF guys they will fighter it out very quickly
could be cool to see some matches with high-level players where they can pick this "generic civ" and see how it performs in various matchups and on various maps
All same building sprite share tech and units. That would be fun to explore
AoE4 is AoE with All Techs but civs have 10 bonuses specific to civ, more unique units per civ and more unique tech per civ, sometimes 15 unique techs per civ
i think it's cool to have basic tech the same so you don't have "i gotta upgrade my spearmen... oh wait i can't..."
7:51 i can see my gold stockpile evaporating just looking at that army😂
I think an all techs civ existing would be a good thing, even if the civ isn’t good. It would be a baseline power level they could use to benchmark other civs, different strats, etc. Tournament viable doesn’t have to matter for it, it could just give us more info and be worth it,
Now do "All bonuses but only the units every civilization has"
I mean, fully upgraded Camels + Knights + Skirmishers sounds like a *very* good time.
Pretty much Tatars