I was really happy to find the channel at first because of the quality of the videos. Then you mentioned your reddit user name and I got even happier! Got a lot of good insights from your comments on the sub. Cheers! Also, it's baffling to me that acid grip and hypnotize are seen as bad spells at all.
My witch has taken acid grip as an innate spell fron ancestry ad i was told it was a bad idea from rhe rest of the party due to low damage, until they saw me use it to brake a grapple and shoving an enemy wizard that was fireballing us across a 100ft pool of flaming tar, into said pool of flaming tar.
My party never questioned the “why” of me picking certain spells (they’ve gotten used to me trying my best to play the 500 IQ Wizard with niche spells), but my melee buddies slowly fell in love with it once they realized I’m usually just making them immune to Grabbed/Restrained. Also hah, that flaming tar example is exactly why the rule I discuss at 11:27 exists! I’m guessing your GM doesn’t restrict hazardous terrain movement to just push/pull (which is fair, I don’t either!)
@@9652769 Looking at the Grapple Action: 2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2376&Redirected=1, you’ll see that it says “unless you move” as a condition for the Restrained/Grabbed to end early. And looking at the monsters’ Grab ability (2e.aonprd.com/MonsterAbilities.aspx?ID=45&Redirected=1) it specifies that it uses the Grapple Action, so it inherits that wording. So forced movement is the most reliable way to end grapples!
I'd really like to see a video on niche uses for a utility/exploration focused spell like Pest Form or Phantasmal Minion. I find myself using Phantasmal Minion as a deluxe Telekinetic Hand far more often than I'd think. It's exceedingly useful to have a disposable set of dexterous hands that can operate things from a safe distance.
Great break down of this remastered spell. I really like the favor they've added with the new spells, almost all of them a rider effect even on a success that makes them strong for action economy.
rapid rake kills pcs- even if you go down midway the aurumvorax still has attacks left, so you most likely get double tapped. Also, your second example showed how flanking is NOT automatic in every circumstance. Anyone going out to flank would A-expose themselves to more punishment and B- expose the backline
@@Sequellbellhelmel good additions to consider! Flanking not being an automatic yes is a very big one. In my experience, the most dangerous fights are the ones where you’re least likely to have consistent flanking available, while also missing it the most. In the most extreme case, we had an enemy in AV whom the Fighters could only hit on a 17, Rogue only on a 19, and the Rogue would get nearly one shot if we tried to flank him. That was very much a corner case, but flanking still introduces downsides to your gameplay, even when they’re not that extreme.
Great video! There's a lot of this stuff for 5e but very little for Pathfinder. Please continue!! The only missed point i noticed was opportunity costs. Spell slots used v/s no resources used, and for prepared casters when one of these cases does NOT come up, slot taken with much less ROI.
7:21 i understand the point being raised here(and i for the most part agree with it), but, and i don't know if this is addressed later in the video: assuming the party has knowledge of these saves, the martial here should be trying to go for a trip or something else in most scenarios, and the spellcaster has to have either prepared or sacrificed a spell slot for acid grip, wherehas having access to athletics usually means you can do all maneuvers(even if that means having to drop your weapon for it in some cases) i still think acid grip is awesome and useful but i don't know if comparing it to a shove combat maneuver is really the way to go to prove it because for the most part people who build athletics aren't doing it for the ability to shove others, they're doing it for the versatility of the athletics skill and the sustainability of it that said, great channel, subscribed, watched every video. good stuff
@@ferrisffalcis I do explain this later in the video! Perhaps I should’ve led with that, I’ll keep that in mind for future videos. Basically, there are some situations where forced movement is more important than tripping an enemy. The three situations I mention later in the video are (in increasing order of importance): (a) comboing with an already-cast persisting AoE effect, (b) clearing out a chokepoint that an enemy is occupying that’s putting your friend in danger, and (c) pushing an enemy who has your friend grabbed or RESTRAINED. The argument isn’t that every Athletics user is always Shoving, it’s more that WHEN you need to move your target, Acid Grip will outperform basically anything a martial can even try from levels 1 till 14 ish. I could have tried to compare Trip or Grapple, but spells don’t really compare one to one with Trip the way Acid Grip and Shove, or Fear and Demoralize can be compared. Like Trip’s closest comparisons would be some combination of Agitate or Slow, and Grapple’s would probably be Containment, but both comparisons would need several caveats just to work.
@@Mathfinder-aaa absolutely agreed, then! due to the nature of pathfinder, it's very easy to keep these options in your pocket, especially as a spontaneous caster, when you can take all the "meta" choices of your tradition(heal, syn, slow, etc) and still have plenty of slots for the more "silver bullet" style spells for situations like that. kind of like how every bard should run around with a reaction disabling spell even if that's not what they want to be doing with their lives in most fights
I play an Occult caster with Gravitational Pull (good for pulling surrounded allies) and Kinetic Ram (not as great). When I saw Acid Grip (Primal) my jaw dropped.
Great video! Quick question At 13:07 couldn't the allies just step twice to get out of that room? Why does that diagonal movement not work but the diagonal movement post-spell does?
Relevant link: 2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2360&Redirected=1 Read the objects rules in the one I linked above! A lot of GMs (including myself) interpret this to mean that if you go -CC- (where - is walls, and C is creature), the creatures are blocking the doorway enough to block it. Moving the creature opens it up! Even if your GM wouldn’t rule this specific map this way though, the situation can still pop up with a thicker wall so the example works imo.
Typically speaking, diagonals past walls are not considered accepted movement, compared to diagonals past creatures. I think this is mostly because walls are borders between squares that block movement, while the creatures occupy squares and not "borders". I'm not sure if this is RAW, but it would otherwise make it *literally* impossible to block a door in a way you would assume *should* be possible.
Just a thing about athletics. It can be boosted much more easily over save DC. Or lowering saves. In the level 7 example, guidance is +1. A crit aid on a 7 or better is +3. Teamwork matters.
@@ColdNapalm42 Guidance adding a +1 to the numbers I gave would mean adding an Action from a second person for the Athletics user to still lose in reliability. Adding a crit success Aid on top of that Guidance for a +3 would mean adding an Action AND a Reaction from someone else who ALSO has Master Proficiency in their relevant stat, only to then be tied in reliability with Acid Grip: Athletics would win when Fort is lower but still lose when Ref is lower, and at this point you’re talking about 3 Actions + 1 Reaction from 3 different characters to still only be tied with JUST the forced movement part of this 2 Action spell (not even looking at 120 foot range, damage, speed penalty, lack of MAP, etc). I go over this in my latest video but reliability is only one of the axes of how to evaluate something. The full five axes are potency, reliability, efficiency, sustainability, and versatility. Acid Grip wins in potency, reliability, and versatility, while Athletics wins in efficiency and sustainability. Your suggestion of using Guidance + Aid is basically making the Athletics user lose their efficiency to gain reliability, which is definitely a viable way to make it more reliable if you absolutely need that Shove to land, but it doesn’t mean Athletics is naturally more reliable!
@Mathfinder-aaa guidance and aid are third actions generally speaking. Not all actions are equal. Doing those vs say casting shield from the back line or doing a 1d8 crossbow attack as a caster is a better option. So you really aren't losing efficiency.
@@ColdNapalm42 just because it’s a third Action, doesn’t mean it’s useless! The caster using Guidance could have used that third Action on Spellshape, Demoralize, Recall Knowledge, Sustaining a prior spell, casting a 3-Action spell, casting a 1-Action focus cantrip/spell, simply making a Strike with a bow, commanding an animal, or just Striding into a better place. And for the person using the Aid it took their third Action *and* a Reaction! And at the end of the day the Athletics user was still going to be less reliable than the caster overall if only one of those two things was done, and tied at *best* if both of those things were done
Wouldn't a more fair comparison be between two shoves and acid grip, since acid grip is two actions? Even with MAP, the Martial will have a similar chance of moving them 5 feet, and a good chance of only using one action to do so.
@@nowfocus577 I talk about this in my latest video but my goal isn’t to make the the comparison “fair”, more so than just clearly and transparently outline the upsides of each. Acid Grip is more reliable, more potent, and more versatile. You’re likelier to actually push them at all, you’re likelier to push them further, and you have more decision in where you push them. Shove/Trip is more efficient and more sustainable. It takes only 1 Action (though it incurs MAP) and costs no spell slot. If you were to attempt two Shoves instead of one, you trade away efficiency for a big increase to reliability. That’s a fair trade! If no one in your group has Acid Grip and someone is Reatrained, by all means you should do it. But it’s a trade nonetheless, whereas the character using Acid Grip is playing into their natural strengths.
I love how the "cramped dungeon" still has 15 ft corridors, as if will ever get anything other than 5ft corridors in an official module
This man is going to reclaim the Mathfinder insult into a goddamn virtue I feel it in me bones
Trying to reclaim math is arguably the most brown boi thing I could be doing.
My dude is about to make an essay on the most random spells ever and I am all here for it.
@@MatheusVinicius-eh1jl half of my spells are just gonna be “this is how I ruined Loks’s day”
Maybe next I’ll do Containment 👀
I was really happy to find the channel at first because of the quality of the videos. Then you mentioned your reddit user name and I got even happier! Got a lot of good insights from your comments on the sub. Cheers!
Also, it's baffling to me that acid grip and hypnotize are seen as bad spells at all.
My witch has taken acid grip as an innate spell fron ancestry ad i was told it was a bad idea from rhe rest of the party due to low damage, until they saw me use it to brake a grapple and shoving an enemy wizard that was fireballing us across a 100ft pool of flaming tar, into said pool of flaming tar.
My party never questioned the “why” of me picking certain spells (they’ve gotten used to me trying my best to play the 500 IQ Wizard with niche spells), but my melee buddies slowly fell in love with it once they realized I’m usually just making them immune to Grabbed/Restrained.
Also hah, that flaming tar example is exactly why the rule I discuss at 11:27 exists! I’m guessing your GM doesn’t restrict hazardous terrain movement to just push/pull (which is fair, I don’t either!)
How it removes the grapple?
@@9652769 Looking at the Grapple Action: 2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2376&Redirected=1, you’ll see that it says “unless you move” as a condition for the Restrained/Grabbed to end early.
And looking at the monsters’ Grab ability (2e.aonprd.com/MonsterAbilities.aspx?ID=45&Redirected=1) it specifies that it uses the Grapple Action, so it inherits that wording.
So forced movement is the most reliable way to end grapples!
At long last, the math has been found
@@LaurelMercier Plenty more where they came from!
I'd really like to see a video on niche uses for a utility/exploration focused spell like Pest Form or Phantasmal Minion. I find myself using Phantasmal Minion as a deluxe Telekinetic Hand far more often than I'd think. It's exceedingly useful to have a disposable set of dexterous hands that can operate things from a safe distance.
Great break down of this remastered spell. I really like the favor they've added with the new spells, almost all of them a rider effect even on a success that makes them strong for action economy.
rapid rake kills pcs- even if you go down midway the aurumvorax still has attacks left, so you most likely get double tapped. Also, your second example showed how flanking is NOT automatic in every circumstance. Anyone going out to flank would A-expose themselves to more punishment and B- expose the backline
@@Sequellbellhelmel good additions to consider! Flanking not being an automatic yes is a very big one. In my experience, the most dangerous fights are the ones where you’re least likely to have consistent flanking available, while also missing it the most.
In the most extreme case, we had an enemy in AV whom the Fighters could only hit on a 17, Rogue only on a 19, and the Rogue would get nearly one shot if we tried to flank him. That was very much a corner case, but flanking still introduces downsides to your gameplay, even when they’re not that extreme.
Great video! There's a lot of this stuff for 5e but very little for Pathfinder. Please continue!! The only missed point i noticed was opportunity costs. Spell slots used v/s no resources used, and for prepared casters when one of these cases does NOT come up, slot taken with much less ROI.
7:21 i understand the point being raised here(and i for the most part agree with it), but, and i don't know if this is addressed later in the video: assuming the party has knowledge of these saves, the martial here should be trying to go for a trip or something else in most scenarios, and the spellcaster has to have either prepared or sacrificed a spell slot for acid grip, wherehas having access to athletics usually means you can do all maneuvers(even if that means having to drop your weapon for it in some cases)
i still think acid grip is awesome and useful but i don't know if comparing it to a shove combat maneuver is really the way to go to prove it because for the most part people who build athletics aren't doing it for the ability to shove others, they're doing it for the versatility of the athletics skill and the sustainability of it
that said, great channel, subscribed, watched every video. good stuff
@@ferrisffalcis I do explain this later in the video! Perhaps I should’ve led with that, I’ll keep that in mind for future videos.
Basically, there are some situations where forced movement is more important than tripping an enemy. The three situations I mention later in the video are (in increasing order of importance): (a) comboing with an already-cast persisting AoE effect, (b) clearing out a chokepoint that an enemy is occupying that’s putting your friend in danger, and (c) pushing an enemy who has your friend grabbed or RESTRAINED.
The argument isn’t that every Athletics user is always Shoving, it’s more that WHEN you need to move your target, Acid Grip will outperform basically anything a martial can even try from levels 1 till 14 ish.
I could have tried to compare Trip or Grapple, but spells don’t really compare one to one with Trip the way Acid Grip and Shove, or Fear and Demoralize can be compared. Like Trip’s closest comparisons would be some combination of Agitate or Slow, and Grapple’s would probably be Containment, but both comparisons would need several caveats just to work.
@@Mathfinder-aaa absolutely agreed, then! due to the nature of pathfinder, it's very easy to keep these options in your pocket, especially as a spontaneous caster, when you can take all the "meta" choices of your tradition(heal, syn, slow, etc) and still have plenty of slots for the more "silver bullet" style spells for situations like that. kind of like how every bard should run around with a reaction disabling spell even if that's not what they want to be doing with their lives in most fights
I play an Occult caster with Gravitational Pull (good for pulling surrounded allies) and Kinetic Ram (not as great). When I saw Acid Grip (Primal) my jaw dropped.
As someone who is currently playing a Witch in a Strengths of Thousands game, I have one question.
Will this be on the test, professor?
Great video! Quick question
At 13:07 couldn't the allies just step twice to get out of that room? Why does that diagonal movement not work but the diagonal movement post-spell does?
Relevant link: 2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2360&Redirected=1
Read the objects rules in the one I linked above! A lot of GMs (including myself) interpret this to mean that if you go -CC- (where - is walls, and C is creature), the creatures are blocking the doorway enough to block it. Moving the creature opens it up!
Even if your GM wouldn’t rule this specific map this way though, the situation can still pop up with a thicker wall so the example works imo.
Typically speaking, diagonals past walls are not considered accepted movement, compared to diagonals past creatures. I think this is mostly because walls are borders between squares that block movement, while the creatures occupy squares and not "borders". I'm not sure if this is RAW, but it would otherwise make it *literally* impossible to block a door in a way you would assume *should* be possible.
Just a thing about athletics. It can be boosted much more easily over save DC. Or lowering saves. In the level 7 example, guidance is +1. A crit aid on a 7 or better is +3. Teamwork matters.
@@ColdNapalm42 Guidance adding a +1 to the numbers I gave would mean adding an Action from a second person for the Athletics user to still lose in reliability.
Adding a crit success Aid on top of that Guidance for a +3 would mean adding an Action AND a Reaction from someone else who ALSO has Master Proficiency in their relevant stat, only to then be tied in reliability with Acid Grip: Athletics would win when Fort is lower but still lose when Ref is lower, and at this point you’re talking about 3 Actions + 1 Reaction from 3 different characters to still only be tied with JUST the forced movement part of this 2 Action spell (not even looking at 120 foot range, damage, speed penalty, lack of MAP, etc).
I go over this in my latest video but reliability is only one of the axes of how to evaluate something. The full five axes are potency, reliability, efficiency, sustainability, and versatility. Acid Grip wins in potency, reliability, and versatility, while Athletics wins in efficiency and sustainability. Your suggestion of using Guidance + Aid is basically making the Athletics user lose their efficiency to gain reliability, which is definitely a viable way to make it more reliable if you absolutely need that Shove to land, but it doesn’t mean Athletics is naturally more reliable!
@Mathfinder-aaa guidance and aid are third actions generally speaking. Not all actions are equal. Doing those vs say casting shield from the back line or doing a 1d8 crossbow attack as a caster is a better option. So you really aren't losing efficiency.
@@ColdNapalm42 just because it’s a third Action, doesn’t mean it’s useless! The caster using Guidance could have used that third Action on Spellshape, Demoralize, Recall Knowledge, Sustaining a prior spell, casting a 3-Action spell, casting a 1-Action focus cantrip/spell, simply making a Strike with a bow, commanding an animal, or just Striding into a better place.
And for the person using the Aid it took their third Action *and* a Reaction!
And at the end of the day the Athletics user was still going to be less reliable than the caster overall if only one of those two things was done, and tied at *best* if both of those things were done
Wouldn't a more fair comparison be between two shoves and acid grip, since acid grip is two actions? Even with MAP, the Martial will have a similar chance of moving them 5 feet, and a good chance of only using one action to do so.
@@nowfocus577 I talk about this in my latest video but my goal isn’t to make the the comparison “fair”, more so than just clearly and transparently outline the upsides of each.
Acid Grip is more reliable, more potent, and more versatile. You’re likelier to actually push them at all, you’re likelier to push them further, and you have more decision in where you push them.
Shove/Trip is more efficient and more sustainable. It takes only 1 Action (though it incurs MAP) and costs no spell slot.
If you were to attempt two Shoves instead of one, you trade away efficiency for a big increase to reliability. That’s a fair trade! If no one in your group has Acid Grip and someone is Reatrained, by all means you should do it. But it’s a trade nonetheless, whereas the character using Acid Grip is playing into their natural strengths.
True strike + acid arrow was the play. I think that’s why people liked AA.
Comments and engagement are good for the algorithm 🫡