Shadowheart's Hidden Score | "Nightsong Points" Explained
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Let's dig into the script files of Baldur's Gate 3 to discover Shadowheart's deepest, darkest secrets and some of what makes her tick. We'll find hidden dialogue, bugs, quirks, and a little bit of math.
This was all tested and recorded on Patch 6, version 4.1.1.5022896 (just in case anything changes, in the future)
great discoveries, have you reported the bugs? hopefully they will fix them..
@@YellowCable I have not, but I may look into that
@@SlimXG Deleting my reply's wont score you any subs.... just so you know.
@@RFA_The-DuDe Hard to keep track of different user names, so not sure what you're talking about. I very rarely delete any comments
RUclips randomly deletes posts. Even ones from channel owners. There is no logic behind it. It could read „i like cats“ and just disappear.
I cannot even fathom how complicated this game was to script. So many flags, so many paths, it must have been a nightmare.
Agreed. Looking through the scripts makes it really impressive how many permutations they included
makes sense why they needed 2 years of beta, the amount of bug squashs and fixes must have been enough to fill multiple liner games
They truly hired all the right kinds of nerds for this.
it.. sounds like a fun endeavour, ngl. xD
This comment is accurate. I'm on act 3 on my Evil playthrough with Durge, Ascended Astarion and Sharr's Darkness Embrace Shadowheart and about 80% of cut scenes and other things have changed.
I had to click just for the thumbnail of Shadowheart calculating how badly guiding bolt will miss.
Same, lol, thought this would be a dive into her shite chances of hitting
I thought it was just me wtf
Guiding bolt is no problem, hitting with fire bolt having INT 8 is the real nightmare (even with High Ground or any other advantage)
@@genkureshima9834 because its stupidly encoded that you miss, the rng is set to give you low rolls + high enemy rolls and defence. Theres like 10% chance to hit it. Same with when enemy has 1 or 2 hp then every attack suddenly has like 10% chance to succeed. Just lazy coding to make game more difficult (frustrating)
@@plazmica0323
You say like you coded this shit yourself. Go spit your venom to someone who wants to listen, my dude. Your skill issues and lack of game development knowledge does not interest me.
Note that even without meeting the threshold for nightsong points, it still only takes 40 approval for her to spare the Nightsong on her own (ie going down the "say nothing" or "trust her" path).
Moral of the story: SH just needs moral support from someone she trusts, and she'll do something good for herself.
Although players can and will do what they want, I feel like this is the giveaway that the "correct" path is to let Shadowheart pull away from Shar. She likes kindness towards kids, animals, approves of many good deeds only to be punished by the wound and ultimately does not even choose to kill Nightsong. She is a good person that has been manipulated and controlled via brainwash and only realizes it after getting to spend time with others away from the influence of Shar's followers.
That’s what I realized too. She really is the worst Sharran ever lmao.
I was wondering about this. In my current game, she chose to spare the Nightsong. But as I was watching this video, I am pretty sure I only had 3 of the 6 points, but she was at max approval or very close to it.
@@christopherjohnson2171 That got her under my influence, and i like to help my friends. So i did encourage her, and also Astarion, and me, humble drow with few tentacles... Intentions were good but as i did look back after my first playthrough, one question had to be asked - are we the baddies? It didnt even occur to me, that she can be something else than mad zealot... I have to try this
probably why she always spared nightsong, even though i missed a bunch of these flags
@8:34 "Tav, why are you dropping the spear?"
"It's a surprise tool we won't need later"
THIS is why it was so much easier to convince her on my first run??? Damn, I couldn't figure out what I'd done differently, but now I'm fairly certain I got the bugged wound glitch in that second run
Figuring out that wound bug was what took the longest in putting this video together hahah
Same dude, also damn i got the same pfp on a nother social media. Pallas cats are awesome
I got this wound and I think I only got it three other times before that -- damn, too late
7:36 if you are a Selûnite, you get access to two other dialogue options. BOTH of them result in Shadowheart killing the Nightsong regardless of her approval or Nightsong points.
Source: I’ve romanced this woman as a Selûne cleric 10+ times.
There are those Selune-specific lines, but they lead to the same results, from the same number checks, as the normal versions.
Go outside bro
@@kittrialeviana3574why? That's not where Shadowheart is.
Based shadowheart enjoyer
@@dftpLmao
my first playthrough I let shadowheart decide whether to kill the nightsong or not. She choice not to. Did realize I had done so much to make outcome happen.
If you vacuum cleaning 100% of the content it usually happens
@@romanabanin2216 not necessary "all" content, just morally good choices for which will draw her to the light side. Though, it's important to bring her along in your party.
Every time I play I just trust her with high approval and she spares the nightsong
i always expected her to trust the nightsong and never kill her
Until one playthrough where i had never had her in the party and let her decide
I was like "wooooow holy shit shart"
@@EpicRenegade777 tbh baseline for me it just comes down to "was shart in my party a majority of the game? no? then dont bring her along" lol
@@ReunionMana my party is always girls and maybe if hes lucky, gale, so shart appears alot
@@EpicRenegade777gale is one of the girls just like karlach is one of the boys ❤
I trusted her in my honor run, shoudlnt have
Shart: "This is my sacred duty to shar i need that spear to become a dark justiciar!"
Me: Ok, ok, i gotchu
Also me: Oopsie poopsie butterfingers am i right haha.
And Nightsong even has new lines if you show up without the spear, but Shadowheart doesn't seem to care. Just, "Oh well, guess I'm a Selunite, now."
@@SlimXG booleans for behavior are real bummers ☺ (actually the web of possibilities spun open by all these options must be really hard to navigate - big kudos to their plotting team!)
@@ArneBab Agreed. Looking through the script files really made me appreciate how many permutations there are. And I've barely scratched the surface, so far.
Shart?
MINT!
This is a nice, detailed analysis. While you mention that you don't need to collect/trigger all of the points to work, AND the "ooops I might have misplaced that spear somewhere" cheese, I feel it needs to be emphasised that it's easier than it seems.
Her taking the shiny path is triggered by you playing nicely overall and being nice to her, which'll trigger her Selunite inheritance.
This seems to be true! I play the “shiny” path, as you so brilliantly named it, and haven’t seen most of these interactions. Yet when I get to that pivotal moment in the story, and she had the spear, she didn’t kill Nightsong!
It was partly inspired by my first playthrough, when I was being generally nice, and also romancing Shadowheart. But since I failed that passive Religion check, didn't think to tell her that it sounded like abuse, and burned up the Noblestalk (and wouldn't have thought to give it to her, anyway), I didn't get all 4 points, but had no idea I had missed anything, at that time.
@@SlimXG genereally is the important word here. In My first run I raided the grove for Minthara but after that was a good guy, I quicksaved to see how shadowheart would choose and she spared Aylin on her own. So I guess how you act towards her is more important than what choices you make in quests.
@@martinnolhaf3151 At the Nightsong confrontation, it mostly comes down to approval. If it's high, it's easy to get Shadowheart to spare her without doing much. Having the 4 Nightsong Points on top of that just makes it even easier.
On my first run I missed the opportunity to open the selunite chest, just couldn't figure it out. Then in the shadowfell I let her decide what to do and I somehow just had enough points with her for shadowheart to spare nightsong, even though I previously wasn't traveling with her in my party since sometime into act 1. I was playing a charisma class, but didn't make any rolls just let her choose lol. No idea how I got the approval required for her to make that decision, I wasn't going out of my way to be nice and respectful as I was a sort of chaotic neutral playstyle
Thanks, I was frustrated why Shadowheart didn't want to kill the Nightsong on her own in my evil playthrough. I told her how cool Shaar was and everything the entire game, but in the end, it's clearly not what actually determines her choice. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that Shadowheart will basically always do the right choice, even when we actively try to make her do the bad one, she is genuinely just a good aligned character, making it weird she even followed Shaar for more than a second.
In my honour mode run we basically did everything in act 1 and 2 but didn't primarily use Shart until act 2. We let her decide to do the right thing and she stabbed the Nightsong.
She was the turning point of it becoming an evil run
So I played a very stereotypical lawful good paladin, and ended up romancing Shadowheart. One funny thing though, is that, due to my irl lack of knowledge about the church of Shar, I just kinda took her word for it about how her faith in Shar makes her feel better and might be a noble thing. I was supportive with her doing her Shar thing all the way until we encounterred the Nightsong and then I was like, "I don't think this is the move." Passed the DC 21 persuasion check with a righteous nat 20 (I actually shouted irl at that lol). Will definitely take this video into encounter for future playthroughs, thanks for explaining all this!
SAME, reloaded my save countless times. I swear I needed to pass 30 and not 21
@amya_25 i thought i was going crazy i had such an insane dc to clear, it might be related to supporting her in her faith but her liking you. I'd be fucked if i wasnt a bard.
I also had no irl knowledge, however its set up in a way that you both get a suspicion very early on, aswell as you getting so many input on the horrible practices of the cult. The entire shadow cursed lands are filled to the brim with evidence of cruelties and fanatism. Every book you read is more horrible than the last. Worst thing are the surgeon and the "He who was" Quest, when the dead girl tells you what the dark justiciars have done to selunites
Actually these kind of In-depth analysis on how mechanics work in games interest me a lot.
It reminds me of Illusory wall's Darksouls analysis on its mechanics and how things function in general. Helps understand just how detailed and appreciate the work of development people put into games, be it in unconventional ways or just plainly obscure mechanics that almost no one understood for a long while.
I always figured she had more going on than just the influence points. Very cool. Throughout my playthroughways, I've noticed similar quirks with other characters as well. Very neat stuff,
Love code diving and checking internal flags like these. Always disliked how people say dialogue trees when in reality implementing them as trees would be horribly bloated, and pretty much all games do dynamic checks to enable and disable events. How did you find these, data mining guides somewhere?
I kept stumbling onto more files and tools over time. First, a full pack of the script files, then the tool to extract those files. Then the "Goals" list that has the more code-ish details (shown in the text editor bits in the video), then how to unpack a save file to check all your current flags. Using Cheat Engine to check and change flags on the fly, etc.
The tree doesn't have to be an instance of Tree, its nodes and parentage between such can be explicitly enumerated out over your code base
Although really its more of a graph
@@jameshughes6078Dialog directed graph
You can also pick up a Selunite necklace in the Blight Village for an advantage on the Religion check of the wolfdream conversation, Shadowheart will remark on it if you pick up.
Ah hah, so that's the necklace the script is referring to, here: ORI_Shadowheart_Knows_SeenNecklaceDesign
I hadn't been able to track down which necklace it meant, and I figured that the scroll passing the check for free was good enough. But if I had known, I definitely would have mentioned it. Thanks a lot for the info.
@@SlimXGthere's a house that starts the blacksmith quest, with web in the middle, either it or a house next door has Sailor Moon necklace in the table, and if you pick it up with Shartyfart in your party she gets all edgy about it.
She also has a funny line on the second Seirūn idol I found, in the owlbear cave Shadystalk is just wangsty but one later (in Underdark IIRC) has her ask "all right, if you need a paperweight".
She calls that necklace "Selunite trash." When I got that line for the first time (weirdly) in my 9th playthrough (it's Honour Mode so I've been a much bigger loot goblin than normal), I laughed for a while. And then immediately went and sold the thing to Dammon.
Do you know how big the bonus is? Just curious.
@@loganwhitlock9780 Finding the necklace gives you Advantage on the DC18 Religion check roll
Geez louise, with all these bugs it's a miracle I convinced her on my first playthrough.
Not really, 4 nightsong points is easy as hell. It's the wound points that are hard to get.
@@MichaelDavis-mk4me But, if I understand this, getting the bugs makes getting future points impossible.
@@RockR277 Listen, I got the bugs and got enough points to get Shadowheart to spare Nightsong while actively trying to make Shadowheart want to kill her on my second playthrough. He says it's bugged, maybe it bugged for him. Basically, if Shadowheart learns everything about Shaar and her own story, she will basically always spare Nightsong, even if you try to guide her towards embracing Shaar. With this guide, maybe I'll be able to get Shadowheart to be evil, but it's not easy at all.
@@RockR277 There are wound flares that are bugged, which can stop you from reaching four of those and getting the Nightsong Point for wound flares, but you can still get any of the other five Nightsong Points, even if the wound flares get stuck.
@@SlimXG Ah, my bad
3:26 Since I just happened to stumble onto this video, I thought I’d mention something I also happened to stumble into in blighted village. Because I’m an absolute incurable loot goblin, I found two books, one of them a journal, in a bookcase behind Lump the Enlightened. Reading it triggered something with Shadowheart similar to what triggers at the statue behind the windmill. But if that journal scene triggers, the scene behind the windmill doesn’t trigger. Not sure if that’s interesting or useful info in the slightest, just thought I’d pass it along. 😄
It is interesting! I saw that in the files, just like the statue one, but I couldn't seem to get it to trigger. Since the script also mentions a skeleton with a helmet as a trigger that I could find no sign of, I thought the journal might have also been changed somewhere along the way. It might have been just as you described, but in reverse; since I'd already been to the statue when I read the journal, nothing happened, so I thought it wasn't working. Thanks for the insight.
@@SlimXG could the skeleton trigger be the dark justiciar skeletons near the grymforge? on runs where i don't focus on shadowheart much but still have her in my party i tend to get a lot of exposition dumped on me there
@@hi2u670 Interesting thought, though the script file is specifically for the Blighted Village area, and only has branches for finding the journal or the statue. But the note at the top of the page says, "After finding Sharran crown on a skeleton, an old journal speaking of local disappearances or a defiled statue of Selune" and the Grymforge skeleton cutscene doesn't set the same flags. So it doesn't seem like it.
Ah, a fellow loot goblin 😂 I also found the journal first and was wondering why the statue didn't trigger until my second playthrough. Love the little bits and bobs like that to make each playthrough unique to people
@@SlimXGI have a vague memory of maybe getting Shar-related dialogue from a skeleton behind the smithy, between the building and the town wall? It only happened once, though. I'd have to go back and check on that.
I'm here to do Shadowcute research! Thanks for the video 😊
not enough feet in it tho, eh?
I see why she kills the night song in some playthroughs but doesn't in others i've played for seemingly no reason
8:34 "It's okay, Percy. I really only just want to hold your gun for a moment, you can trust me!"
Now give it back.
Give what back?
@@SlimXG Oh no, it's gone in the vat of acid!
Damn, this really put a lot into context. I was streaming my 2nd playthrough for a friend, and I was confused as to why we didn't see the same scenes of shadowheart being conflicted that I had in my 1st playthrough. Turns out accidentally missing the wolf memory scene had a huge impact. Good thing my bard with Persuasion expertise had no trouble convincing her still. Very well done video man!
I've always just trusted her to do the right thing and said nothing and she's never let me down. I guess I'm just too good a friend
Shadowheart approves.
This explains so much for my second playthrough! I decided to let Shart do whatever she wanted, ans I was shocked when she randomly spared the Nightsong. Turns out, I accidentally stumbled ass backwards into all 6 of her points
First time i played, i didnt realize what the spear was so i did what i always do with new gear and immediately send it to camp. It was considered having it "on me" so when we went to the Nightsong, Shadowheart immediately turned on Shar out of fear 😂
Hey, Shadowheart said you have to get it, not where it had to go after that.
Man, this is so convoluted my head hurts. I'll just swing it and hope for the best.
Hahah yeah, and it mostly tends to happen organically, anyway. It's just the required long rests and the potential bugged wound flares that can trip people up.
We finally get a reliable way of hearing the conversation about her doubts. I always thought it was just super rare and never got it to trigger. Though it does suck that the wound flare counter gets bugged if you open the selunite chest. I always love fighting her on it lol.
Right?
I've never understood her point there, before you persuade her, that is--
"Oh, my goddess doesn't like the goddess who is worshipped by the people who made that, so we can't touch it."
If a Nazi drops a gun in front of you in the middle of a war, are you going to refuse to pick it up because it's a nazi's gun? Or are you gonna use it to kill some nazis? Seems like a pretty easy choice to me. lmao
@@lyntonfleming I wanted to tell her ,"lets open it up and take a dump in it" but her reverence here might be a clue she's not as loyal to Shar as she thinks
There's a bunch of Minthara dialogue (everything under "I need to talk to you about a private matter") that locks you out similarly as soon as you trigger the first Act II Dark Urge scene at camp. It sucks, since that Durge scene triggers as soon as you visit Last Light... which tends to be before saving Minthara at Moonrise. There are ways to make it work, but it feels convoluted.
Not exactly relevant to this video, but I was reminded of this while watching so I figured I'd leave it here in case it can help anybody watching with that particular issue...
"...Whyyy am I dragging out this intro instead of getting to the point?" I've never heard a more beautiful thing 15 seconds into an informative youtube video.
I love videos that investigate inner workings of games. Invisible bugs, neat hidden things - I’m here for all of it
Peak bg3 content
I didn't know about any of this and played the whole game trying to be respectful of her devotion to Shar and always tried to pick the options that empower her and I let her choose whether to kill Nightsong or not and she didn't. I feel like I missed more than 2 of those Nightsong points, too, though I definitely wasn't keeping track. Such an interesting mechanic.
same, i'm actually?? shocked this is the "secret path" or whatever bc it just makes me feel like "okay so is it a secret or were y'all just abhorrently disrespectful of her faith and boundaries in previous playthroughs?" 💀
@@mavisanya6969 idk man i don't think Shar deserves any respect
@@justasaiyanfromearth5252Same. In this case, supporting her Shar worship in an unqualified way amounts to enabling her/her family's abuser. One of the things I feel this game explores so effectively is whether the player/player character is willing to challenge the delusions and worst impulses of some of their companions in order to help them grow as people, vs validating or being uncritical of their unhealthy rationalizations.
So THAT'S how all this works. Between playthroughs I was so confused about what exactly was deciding how she behaved. It didn't seem consistent so I had absolutely no idea what was going on. God I love this game being so overly complex to try and make the characters feel real
I knew right away this chick would be high care intensive.
This video just confirmed my initial impression.
Not yet reached Nightsong, but ready in Act 2: she told me about the wolf, but I have NO IDEA how many "Nightsong points" I have.
Guess I'll see how it goes when we finally reach Nightsong.
Tbh man, you really shouldn't concern yourself with it, just be a good companion to her, and make sure to have Inspiration points for Act 2.
Also, before you actually are ready to face Ketheric, do not use the buffs from the Shar Sanctuary until you are going to attack Moonrise and finish him.
These come from a statue you can find in the middle of the Reithwin Town itself, right in front of the cemetery. The statue has 3 plaques that are actually a puzzle, interacting with them in a certain order reveals another smaller room inside the statue with 3 *other* Shar statues that require checks to roll for if you aren't Shadowheart. Successful rolls grant a +5 Bonus to Int, Wis, and Charisma until Long Rest.
That way you can keep a +5 to Wis, Int, and Charisma to persuade her...just in case.
This is if you don't feel like throwing the spear in the Shadowfell as soon as you get there and want to test your luck on the rolls. If you just wanna do this whole situation naturally, simply being a decent, curious, and open minded companion beforehand will pretty much spare the Night song. I have only failed one time during that situation, killing Shadowheart was heartbreaking to me, and it was on an Honor Run. Which is why I suggest bringing Inspiration if you just don't feel like dropping The Spear. 😂
@@LaztheLax I play an half-orc barbarian, somewhere in the chaotic good spectrum: generally speaking he does the right thing, is something of a good companion, but has occasional bouts of assholery, especially if it something that test his patience 😆
A bit like Karlach I guess (generally speaking good natured and direct), but rougher around the edges.
So, to answer your question: no, he wasnt always patient and understanding with Shadowheart, even though so far she seemed to have opened up quite a bit regardless, and seems overall pretty satisfied with me, at least according to her approval bar
Wow, that's incredibly fiddly. There are triggers that I met, like getting enough Wolf Dream Points, but didn't complete because I didn't follow the right dialog path.
There are also dialog options I didn't take because they looked like they were re-hashing conversations we'd already had, like asking about the wound again.
Such a great video! I've done some research on this myself, but it was purely by in-game testing, no code diving, so I didn't get nearly as much info.
I'm especially thankful to you for pointing out the "enough Nightsong points but not enough approval" situation. I've seen mentions of situations like this several times on forums and it was always confusing to me how it's possible. What seems to happen is that there are two separate "She knows something about you" dialogues - one with Persuasion and one without, the former shows up at >40 approval but the latter shows up at
The weird 4NSP 20-40AP situation happens because of the order of checks, and that's what makes it seem like a mistake. Her asking you what she should do happens if you have 4NSP and over 20AP. But then the check to see if it should skip all Persuasion options happens below that, and requires 40AP.
And yeah, since I'd blanket covered that 40AP+ lets you convince her with no Persuasion needed, I didn't go into each individual scenario. I've always gotta balance my love of details with the risk of boring the audience hahah
Seems like a minefield of scores and bugs) Despite this, in my first playthrough, I got that heart-to-heart conversation about her doubts, and later, watched her throw the spear dramatically after I told her to do whatever she thought was right.
Oh thank god, FINALLY someone made this video. It was driving me insane how many differing opinions on Shadowheart’s decision with the Nightsong there was, and no one seemed to have a consistent answer. Thank you for this.
My only question at this point I guess is do you need to have looted the Selunite chest in act 1 by the time you get the wolf memory with Shadowheart in order to get the dialogue option?
If she tries to share the wolf memory with you and you're not ready yet, you can tell her to put it off, and it'll go into her regular list of options when you click on her from that point. That'd let you go read the scroll in the chest first, and then tell her you're ready to hear it. If that option doesn't show up in her choices, you'll need to long rest
Another fantastic video.
One time I did a 'Me and Shads vs the world' run and in it, I discovered that after she tells you to leave the chest in the owlbear cave, she leaves a small hidden camera on the chest, so that even if you send her to camp and open it away from her, you have to pass a Sleight of Hand check to open it without her disapproval :D
Hey, she's just looking out for your best interests. Doesn't want Selune gettin' in your head.
@@SlimXG My last run was Death Cleric of Tiamat (Arkhan RP). Selune is indeed quite wet
On my first playthrough, I tried to get her to turn away from Shar. Once we got to the Nightsong, I told her dont do it and she killed the nightsong anyway. I reloaded a save before that point and told her to choose what she thinks is best and she spared the nightsong.
I just thought Maybe telling her what to do made her choose the opposite choice out of spite but letting her choose made her choose whats genuine in her heart with taking what youve said into great consideration.
Sounds just like my ex lol.
@@jsealejandro06 reverse psychology. Ed, Ed, and Eddy had a whole episode about it. Doing the opposite thing to get the desired results...
My first time through I thought making her throw away the spear was a joke as afterwards the stars aligned and she pretty much looked directly into the camera like “I can’t believe I just did that”. Can almost hear the laugh track
I have triggered 5 wound flares, avoided the bugged ones, and she still doesn't have the dialogue option to tell her that her wound is a real bummer. This is incredibly frustrating.
There's a few things that might be the issue (though I can't tell for sure without looking at your save file). You might need to long rest. You might have hit one of the "fallback" wound flares that trigger out of conversation and cause the same bug as the two I mentioned. You also need to already know about her Shar worship for the conversation to go as I showed. It's pretty difficult to avoid that by the time you have 4+ wound flares, but it's technically possible.
I told shadowheart in my first playthrough that it was her choice and she chose to save the nightsong lol.
I'm realizing now how impressive it is that I just accidentally got to a point with shadowheart where I hit basically all of these checkboxes without even realizing it lmao.
I think that's why Astarion liked me so much too. Empathize and give them their freedom to do things makes a lot of their stories change drastically it seems.
One of the most devastating moments in my first playthrough was when my lawful good character failed the DC persuade on my romance interest Shadowheart, and she killed the Nightsong. I was genuinely gutted as last light goes out. There just wasn't an appropriately wretched dialogue option when Shadowheart debut's her new look.
Awesome video. I can't believe how deep this game's branching options go. I absolutely love it.
if you tell her that you don't like it, but she can kill nightsong if she must you will get the "she may know something" option for free, after Aylin says that she knows something about shadowheart. Instant save-the-nightsong without an ability check. Found it during my first run, still worked today on my throphy-hunting save.
Thank you so much ! Her arc felt a bit rushed to me cause I never saw her doubt Shar before Nightsong in my run. I had a very high approval and stayed silent during the dialogue and she spared her. Before it I always told her Shar seems awesome and she seemed very much pro Shar. I realize now that I had the double bug with the selunite chest and the noblestalk not counting so I didn't have the 4 points and didn't trigger the doubting scenes. I'm glad I found your explanation, her arc seems way more coherent that way !
Nice video. It's interesting to see the inner workings on this interaction.
I know that for a lot of players, SH will be a mainstay of their party (either because they're romancing her or because they feel they need a cleric), but it seems like these conditions are pretty difficult to trigger if she's not with you all the time.
I used to play with Shadowheart in my party at all times, so when i went for "female Tav male harem party" and I took Shadowheart only for Shadowfell adventure I was shocked that, left to her own choice she killed Nightsong... this vid really made my eyes open... so many little choices making so big impact in the end!
Thank you so much for figuring this out! This mystery has been plaguing me ever since the game came out and I managed to get that hesitation conversation for the first time, but noticed watching streams and other people's playthrougs that it's kinda rare to get, but had no idea what the mechanics behind it were.
I had never seen the conversation in one of my own playthroughs, since it's so easy to miss. It was even difficult to track it down in the script files, since unlike everything else I described in the video, the "IrregularBehavior" flag that is checked to see if she'll have the extra dialogue in camp is not set in a standard way, like most flags. It wasn't until I started examining the unpacked saved file that I was able to find it.
@@SlimXG That's interesting! Thank you again for figuring this all out! Any chance you would do a similar video about the things that affect Shadowheart's decision to sacrifice or spare her parents (if you let her choose on her own)? She seems to sacrifive them on default unless you trigger certain things beforehand. I've seen people claim there's these three things you need to find around Baldur's gate: a tombstone, a graffiti and finding these two should automatically prompt a third memory. Personally I've never managed to trigger this third memory, so I don't know if there is hidden mechanic behind this too or if it is just bugged.
@@shadow_risen Yep, Shadowheart does indeed have "ParentPoints" available in Act 3 which determine that result. The next video I'm working on is the Act 3 Honour Mode guide, so I'm going to figure out the parents stuff along the way. Might slip it into that video if it's quick enough, or make a separate video if there's enough to say about it.
@@SlimXG Thank you, I'll be looking forward to that!
@@shadow_risen Necroing this to share what others have found and may help in this investigaiton:
There are 3 triggers that determine what she will do (if you get them all she will save them if you don't she will moon motes them)
1. Interact with the grave of Shadowheart's past mentor.
2. Find a graffiti that was made by Shadowheart.
3. Shadowheart will remark about how she remembers the smells and the alleyways of the city.
Now form I've read the third one is bugged ;-; it is supposed to play after getting the first two ones but if you made her eat the noblestalk it won't trigger so yeah
Thank you, that's huge work you did!
So it's 4 Nightsong points required at least (out of 6). 4 can be earned in Act 1. Two during the dialog right after the wolf dream. 1 after 4 incurable pain events - persuade that wound is not ok (approval past 20 must have). 1 if convince to eat the Noblestalk mushroom.
3 wolf dream points are required at least plus long rest to see the wolf dream itself (save her from the pod, tell her it's fine to worship Sharr, ask if you can help with her hand pain, ask to share info about her personality, etc.).
4 incurable wound events (persuade or intimidate her to share she worships Shar, save Arabella, see Selune statue in the village, cure gnome Thulla, sharing wolf memory), others might be buggy.
Finally mistery resolved for those getting nightsong killed unintended telling they had high approval and such... maybe they didnt got 4 nightsong points and lied of high approval when not for even the persuade checks to appear to give them a chance. Else she defaults to kill or spare if thresholds are met or not.
The convo where she expresses doubts has been triggering for me after talking with Isobel at Last Light Inn. Also, you only need at least 40 approval for her to spare the Nightsong if you trust her and let her decide on her own.
Oh... That's why she chose to ruin my durge run. I picked "say nothing" option, but she decided to spare night song on her own
Download the mod that autosaves every 15 minutes. It makes moments like these much less frustrating.
@@ArDeeMee I played on honor mode tho
@@catgirluwu752 Oh well… ^^;
Same thing for me. Did multiple playthrough, do everything to make her kill nightsong on her own, (encourage her to go shar) and at the end, she always spars nightsong.
Same here.
Recruiting a whole evil party.
Shar worshiper? Check.
Vampire? Check.
Drow Cultist? Check
Wait, Shar worshipper, why are you saving the Selunite?! NO STAB HE-- Okay fine. New friend....
That's a great video. Before I've heard from a lot of people that she always chooses to spare the Nightsong on her own and those are also the only scenes that are availbe on youtube (I've never seen her choosing Shar) but in the same time some people were swearing they had low approval with her but still allowed her to choose because they were sure she would spare Aylin but she instead killed her. So I didn't know who to trust. In the end it does seem her decision depends partialy on approval, partially on doing certain things and partially and choosing different dialogue options. Very informative!
Great video on this mechanic! I like seeing how things work behind the scenes, and wouldn't mind more!
On my first run I tried the dc 21 persuasion check, but as a nerdy wizard with only +1 persuasion, I didnt stand a chance. I fully accepted her killing the nightsong but thankfully she spared even though I failed the persuasion. I didn't realise how much went into that, I figured I mustve just had high enough approval it didnt matter.
I can't say if something changed, since I'm only using the current patch files, but at least right now, if you reach the second set of choices and fail at either the DC14 Persuade or the DC21 Persuade, Shadowheart will always kill her.
The DC30 Persuade from the first set of choices is different. If you succeed at that one, she spares her, but if you fail it, Shadowheart just gets angry and you can still proceed to the second options. But that Persuade only shows up if you're over 40AP, anyway, so it doesn't matter much.
Good to know. I hope Larian is aware and planning to fix that bug with her wounds.
LMAO I didn't know about the "just drop the spear" thing. That's gold, I'm kinda surprised they didn't somehow prevent that or at least add specific dialogue for it or something
Hahah exactly. There's even a dialogue path during the confrontation that leads to Shadowheart attacking you, but just tossing the spear away doesn't make her angry at all . .
Hey, man! Just wanted to tell you I love watching your BG3 guides, how you explain game mechanics in-depth 😄 Can't wait to see your Act 3 Honor mode video! I'll be taking notes for when the time comes to tackle Honor mode myself (and hopefully I don't TPK once 😅) All the best 😊❤️
Thanks a bunch. And now that this one is done, I'll be starting work on Act 3 right away
Her wolf memory triggered for me after I went into an underground lair in act 1 that is near where the burning building is. There are some wolves inside that aren't hostile (depending on ur choices) and she gets tye frightened status and afterwards she explains it to you.
Super interesting video thanks for sharing. I love seeing all the hidden things they did for this game and having it broken down in such an easy to follow way was awesome. Would love to see more videos like this
Very glad to hear it. And I've been a big fan of your channel for quite a while.
A game where your choices truly matter. The amount of times I had to reload an old save because I didn't do XYZ
I really enjoy that you spent the time to dig into the BG3 code to give us the details that I don't see on any other source.
I love finding out how these work! I knew there had to be some very complicated dialogue chains because I've played through the game 13 times and I still see dialogue I've never seen before.
Great stuff. The code dive is excellent but it maybe be useful to post game version in a pinned comment in case larian changes something in the future. Something like "Code sourced from version X".
Also if you have access to the code I hope you could do a code dive on the permanent quasit (shovel) scroll conditions. A long debunked reddit post stated that you need to talk to the mirror with certain dialog options (as well as class restrictions) and I (as well as many others) have done it without ever interacting with the mirror. Every "guide" video parrots the misinformation without actually testing/diving. Although the actual flags/conditions are not have not been explored.
Sure, I can take a look around and see if I can dig up anything more conclusive
I think they may have made some changes to Shovel. The first time I tried to pact with Shovel, my background as a Draconic sorcerer interfered with the conversation. (I reloaded and tried every branch; I couldn't make it work.) This time I had zero problems. (Also, the scroll description now says 'permanent', and I'm 99% positive that wasn't there before.)
@@moonwatcher99 Certainly possible. A lot of info that gets passed around comes from older patches
Great video! I had no idea how complicated SH's hidden approval system was and you covered it excellently. Big help amigo
I don't know why Shadowheart is so broken... Currently having a big bug playing a romance with her with my Selûnite female Drow Dark Urge. Somehow I can't kiss her and it was as if I was open to other romances even though I hit all the milestones (I know the romance well, I've played it many times before). I'm guessing this has probably to do with those points as I maxed approval and gave her the noblestalk pretty early on.
There is definitely some wonkiness when it comes to some romance bits. Minthara is the queen of bugged romance, after all.
5:39 in my experience (not sure if this is consistent) the Noblestalk is actually slightly bugged. If it's in your camp when you talk to Shadowheart, you have the option to give it to her but it won't actually remove it, unlocking the sidequest and still letting you give it to Delyth. Strangely, the same doesn't apply in reverse.
Hahah nice. Someone else commented that you can put the Noblestalk in a bag to do this, but sending to camp is even easier.
Has anyone checked if Shadowheart loses her protection in the shadowlands if she doesn’t kill the nightsong? Maybe I’ll load up an old save later and try
Hah! That's an excellent question, and most wouldn't ever see it, since they're likely to have the blessing from Isobel or Dolly. I just checked it and, sure enough, Shadowheart loses her protection from the Shadow Curse if you spare the Nightsong (and keeps it if you kill her). Thanks for bringing this up.
Woah, I guess I am lucky because I got all of that on my first full release run!
On the other hand, This helps explain why my Gale was so adamant on taking power and using Karsus' crown - Which I only realised when I watched another player talk to Gale in a few scenes and him have a totally different demeanour.
This game surprises me all the time, I love it.
Yep, I'm planning to dig into Gale's crown/bomb attitude score in the future
@@SlimXG oh fantastic!
@@SuperLamarrio64DS Well that's a weird coincidence, since the Gale video is going up today hahah.
I was looking for this information when she spared the Nightsong to my chagrin in my ultra evil party durge run and next playthrough she murderalized her in my sweetest kindest redeemed durge playthrough. I was completely flabbergasted :-)) Couldn't find anything about those mechanics on wiki or forums or videos for that matter. Thank you, mate!
Nice! I've always wanted an in-depth explanation of the hidden story choices. And speaking of best girl.. would you consider making a similar video regarding Shadowheart's choice of sparing her parents or letting them die on her own? I know that certain actions can make her decide to spare them but I've never managed to get her to do that other than persuading her.
Absolutely. I already saw a bit about that in the scripts/code when making this one (yes, Shadowheart does have "ParentPoints"). Since I'll be playing through Act 3 next, for the Honour Mode guide, I'll make a few notes about that, along the way.
Thanks for this, it was really well explained. You're easy to listen to and understand. there's so much stuff buried in the game, I'm halfway through my second run and feel like I've barely scratched the surface.
Had a look at an old save to confirm, and I got lucky regarding the bugged wound flareup at the sealed chest, it seems.
If you don't know about shar yet and pick the insight check ("Why do you care so much?") when opening it, she does not get a flareup, neighther during the conversation or outside of it.
Annoying little bug though.... Was blissfully unaware of it until now, good find!
Yeah, that Insight check reveal is a weird one, since if you use Persuasion/Intimidation in one of the other situations to talk her into revealing her Shar worship, you do get a flare (in the conversation, so not bugged). But that Insight check bypasses the flare all together, just like the free reveal after the Absolute cutscene does.
@@SlimXGI tested this some more and SH did not get a speech bubble for me after feeding her the noblestalk (4th nightsong point), but I did get the unmarked camp scene where she doesn't seem like herself.
Reason I bring it up is I'm not sure what exactly you meant with "if she does not get a speech bubble, it's because her background flag is set", did you mean that that simply does not pop up when feeding her the noblestalk is the 4th point?
As a Sidenote, I also noticed that her "how are you faring?" dialogue when romanced, after that conversation, changes from the "maybe I should be content with my lot" line to "always good when I'm with you".
Not sure what causes that, did not happen previously.
@@loreofmetalenthusiast Certain dialogue events set a flag, "ORI_Shadowheart_State_BlockBackground" that prevents certain other dialogue from triggering while it's set. Feeding her the Noblestalk sets that flag and the "conflicted" dialogue won't trigger while that flag is set. So if feeding her the Noblestalk is your 4th Nightsong Point, you won't see the other dialogue pop up because it's blocked by that flag. The conversation in camp (where she's fidgeting nervously) is not blocked by that flag.
The other line change you mentioned, after, "How are you faring?" is due to the same flag being set.
@@SlimXG I see, so it was indeed caused by the 4th point then. Was wondering if it might be something bad. Thanks for the reply! Especially on an older video! 😁
Not sure if this is interesting or relevant btw, considering you explained the flag just now, if not, sorry for the textwall. But I tested some other things when I wrote my question.
I noticed that if you romance her at the tiefling party, before getting noblestalk etc, then ask her why she was intrigued by Halsins mention of dark justicuars, the same change happens in the "how are you faring" dialogue. So before getting 4 NS points. Also asking that seemed to lead to repeated dialogue (not the wolf flashback one, but the one before that) about the mother superior.
I also noticed that if you go to the underdark before the party, feed her the noblestalk, have the camp talk, then romance her (all before the party), the dialogue does not change. Not sure if the Halsin mentioning dark justiciar thing changes that, did not have time to test that.
@@loreofmetalenthusiast The same "content with my lot" line also checks for the "ORI_Shadowheart_Knows_BecomeJusticiar" flag in addition to the blockbackground flag
This is the first video I’ve seen of yours, and likely the most interested I’ve been in a baldurs gate video to date. This kind of mechanic examination is what makes me love the game even more, thank you so much
And thank you for watching it. I made this thinking it was probably too narrow of a niche to appeal to many people, but because it was interesting to me. I guess I was wrong hahah. But the game is full of all sorts of interesting interactions behind the scenes, including stuff that was cut from the release version but is still in the files (which can be enabled with the right tools/knowledge). So, there are plenty more videos of this sort that I could make, if people want to see them.
@@SlimXG I know for me at least since I can’t code this is something I never would’ve been able to find on my own, even with a ton of hours. Tips and tricks in general are interesting but there’s something to be said about helping people learn things they had no way of finding on their own.
Just my opinion, but it’s so cool
@@matthewfrack1227 Well I'm glad you enjoyed it and I hope you'll enjoy whatever stuff of this sort that I might come up with in the future.
things like this are why loading screens in this game are so long lol
No kidding . .
they're long? may i recommend playing on PC and use a SSD?
im playing with tons of mods and my loading screens are not long at all. And my rig isn't something super impressive
Been romancing Shadowheart since early access, and I didn't know most of this shit. Apparently I always bug her wound dialog, since I've always persuaded her to let me open the Selunite chest. I've genuinely never seen her dialog about her wound hurting her too much. Granted, it's never stopped me from completing her romance (nor has she ever killed the Nightsong in one of my playthroughs). Still, super cool info in this video! Thanks.
After the wolf dream I'm not getting the "No wonder you're so dedicated to Shar..." option. I can only comment on her part taking on a selunite rite. Any ideas why is this happening?
If you are a Selunite Cleric, that dialogue choice is omitted, for some reason.
@@SlimXG That explains it, thanks. I assume that 2nd Nightsong point is unavailable for Selunite Clerics then.
@@andrespolanco3182 As far as I can tell, yes
That scroll alowing you to make the connection without a check is so cool. Probably no-one notices it but they still coded it because it makes sense. Amazing how detailed the game is!
Wow, I had no idea about that. The wolf conversation was available for me only after we defeated Ketheric and the Nightsong was in our camp. In fact, it was the Nightsong who helped Shadowheart refresh her memory, and at that moment, my character saw Shadowheart's memories. Right after, the religion check happened to recognize the Selûne rite from the memory. I had no idea this could be triggered much earlier; maybe I did too few long rests, and the wolf conversation could't be triggered before. How did I convince her not to kill the Nightsong then? I had to succeed in the DC 30 persuasion check (with a -1 persuasion character, yes, I had to score a critical success) to convince her that "she was wrong, and her life's purpose wasn't Shar's will, but that her life could be whatever she wanted it to be". Just to clarify, I didn't miss a single check to learn more about her. Thanks for this video!
That DC30 Persuasion check only shows up if you have 40+ Approval with Shadowheart and try to immediately talk her out of killing Nightsong during the first set of dialogue options. If you just trust her at the first choice, then the second set of options will always let you spare Nightsong with no skill check, when you have 40+ Approval.
I covered that in my Act 2 guide, and at the time I made _this_ video, I thought it would just get a few views from people that had already watched that guide video, so I didn't go into specifics in this one. Whoops. >.>
@@SlimXG That's curious, I just tried to prevent her from doing something she could regret for the rest of her life, bearing in mind I wanted to romance her.
As for the wolf conversation, it's still pretty surprising for me that I "skipped" that conversation even when I tried to learn every single detail from her.
@@RevengerThunder A likely explanation for that one is just not long resting enough to trigger everything. The game seems to discourage you from long resting while locking many cutscenes behind long resting . .
So, TLDR, "just dump the spear on the ground lmao" is the way to stop shadowheart from killing nightsong.
Yep, if you just really wanna make sure Nightsong lives, no matter what, then just chuck that piece of junk in the trash before you start the conversation. Still works in Patch 7.
@@SlimXG I cant believe it. Love this game, thanks for sharing. Should prove really useful.
Would love more videos like this. Showing this type of thing to non-gamers helps get across how truly detailed this game is
I am still going through my first playthrough and I took an approach to let companions decide for themselves what to do in their moments, didn't realized there was so much tied to the different requirements that needed to be met for those outcomes to occur, it really gives you an even greater appreciation for what the devs did here.
P.S: Shadowheart spared the nightsong in mine. I did have max approval but I didn't date her.
P.S.2: I wish Wyll got the same treatment... If you are in Act 3 you know what moment I am talking about, wish he could decide for himself...
The moment she told me not to open a loot chest is the moment I decided she was out
PLEASE more of this! This is one of my fav bg3 videos I've seen so far
Well that's quite the praise. I'll see what I can come up with.
Agreed, I love this type of videos
thanks for the in-depth analysis. it's mind-blowing
something strange abt my 2nd playthru as Durge: initially I refused to take on any party members for fear of what might happen to them. then I recruited Shadowheart right before entering Act 3 but still soloed everything - therefore no approval to speak of (always neutral) and pro'bly no Nightsong points if any (I did express concern abt her curse when we chatted occasionally at camp) but during the Nightsong encounter (which I took her to, as the only exception) the "...she knows something abt you..." option was still available and I picked that (no disadvantage either) so I passed that
everyone's happy :)
Always loved vids that open the hood and show you how a game calculates and resolves checks, points, flags, etc. I can only imagine bg3 has a lot to untangle! Very clear video with good visuals and great explanations 👍
Great video! I'm fascinated by how complex this is and gonna be sharing this with my friends! You also explained something that happened on my first playthrough, I got that exact same issue (bug?) where the option to persuade her to not kill aylin just wasn't there. I'd love to see something like this around the math of what influences her choice in act 3 of what to do with her parents if you let her decide on her own.
I have most of the details on Shadowheart's Act 3 "ParentPoints" figured out, but need to do some in-game testing to put everything in place. Stay tuned.
That kind of bug or oversight shows up and so many games. You do all this work setting all these flags for all of these conversations and then you show up to the place where it all matters because of some kind of bug, none of it actually matters.
Oh! I was wondering what influences best girls decision.
I did rescue her from the pod. I gave her the noblestalk and night orchid. I also noticed the moonstone.
I don't recall much of my dialog beyond that. But I know she has four nightsong points.
It's funny that I did all this without knowing these details. The incredible thing about this game is all the possibilities it gives you.
2:46 You can also be a cleric of Selune, then you don't need to do anything for that to show up
That's true. Though if you do get that Selune Cleric-specific dialogue about the Moonstone, you are prevented from getting the "Abuse" point (the dialogue option doesn't even show up). Though the scroll from the chest flag is checked _before_ the Selune Cleric flag, so if a Selune Cleric reads the scroll, they'll get the same results as any other class and can still get both Nightsong Points in that conversation.
Your video came across my screen randomly and I am impressed with your work; very well done. New sub. As for the glitches I am wondering if and when Larian will address them considering how they are diligent about patching such things especially considering the popularity of Shawdowheart.
Thanks a bunch. And yeah, can always hope it might be fixed in the future. Patch 7 is still a ways off.
You made this video just in time, I’m doing the gauntlet of Shar rn on my second playthrough lol. My approval isn’t as high with her as it was in my first playthrough so I’m hoping I’m good this time around, I honestly don’t remember which options I chose but this will be very useful in the future. Thanks for this!
Happy to help!
It worked, thank you so much! I’m also curious, do any other companions have a similar system? Such as Astarion choosing to ascend or not ascend if you let him make his own decisions? I’ve heard some people say he’ll never refuse to do the ritual if you don’t talk him out of it, but others say he doesn’t always do it. Or Gale wanting the crown, Karlach choosing to go to Avernus or not, etc. Also whether or not SH will kill her parents. Obviously you are under no obligation to dig into the code like you did here, I don’t want to make it sound like that as you’ve already done a great job here. But I was just curious if you’ve heard of anything that affects these things. Thanks!
@@GabbyPlaysGames02 Shadowheart's parents video is already in the works! From what I've seen of the other characters, so far, there's nothing as complex as Shadowheart's various point counters. Gale is next closest, with a sliding scale between pushing him toward the crown or pushing him toward blowing himself up. Will also make a video detailing that one, at some point.
As for Karlach, she always goes to Avernus if you encourage her to, or always dies if you just say nothing or say Goodbye.
Astarion will always want to ascend, unless you pass a skill check to talk him out of it. The alternate where he stays a spawn with no check happens if you killed one or more of the ritual vampires during the fight with Cazador, since every one of them needs to be alive for Astarion to ascend.
Awesome, I’m looking forward to it! My first time around I let Shadowheart choose again and she chose to kill her parents, although she was still a Selunite and on a good arc. At the time I thought it was reasonable, her parents even told her to kill them as they’ve been suffering for so long and they want her to be free of Shar, but then it kind of seemed like the bad ending. That makes sense for Astarion, I can’t really see him making the choice not to ascend on his own but I’d heard otherwise. I wonder why Karlach chose to go to Avernus with Wyll in my first playthrough then. I could’ve sworn the whole time I told her to just make the most of what she had left, but then Wyll swooped in and I told her it was her choice and she went. I’m sure Wyll definitely has a big part in her decision too, since he can’t make the offer in the first place without becoming the Blade of Avernus. These videos really just make me appreciate just how complex each companion can be and how much every little dialogue option can matter. The game’s far from perfect but personally I’m still in awe at what Larian was able to accomplish. It just makes me sad that I jumped on the ship so late, as I got the game in late March. Still loving every minute of it though. Thanks again!
I'm playing BG3 for my first time and had heard about/read about the Nightsong points and knew I wanted to save the Nightsong, but I was afraid that by the time I learned about all of this it was already too late. I had already done something else with the mushroom, and I think I got the glitched out hand thing so I won't get that, and I didn't say it seemed like abuse. So I was worried about that. So hearing that even if I did miss the possibility to get 4 points that I can still just drop the spear before confronting her really sets my mind at ease! Thanks for the video.
this was super insightful, well done and thank you
No wonder the characters feel like real people, they're full of quirks and indescrepancies left over from their creation, just like the rest of us.
Dropping the Shar spear on purpose feels roughly equivalent to killing one of Astarion's spawn-siblings during Cazador's ritual so he definitely won't ascend/hold a grudge
At least doing that has a meaningful impact on the fight. Chucking Shadowheart's favorite spear on the ground is pure spite.
Wow this is crazy, thanks for showing just how complicated and in depth this game is!
In my first and second playthrough I always chose the „let her decide“ option and she always spared nightsong.
Explains why it felt so natural for me to allow shadowheart to make a decision for herself and still choose the selunite side.
I never pushed her anywhere and waited up to the end of act 1 until she finally spoke out herself that she's a Sharron.
If you don't do anything but give her time to ponder she will naturally decide against killing Nightsong.