Macbook Battery Replace with a thread - Part 2 of 2
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- This video will show you how to remove a glued battery from a Macbook Pro and easily save yourself $250. Also with this way, there is no risk to your touchpad cable like with the use of the alcohol dissolve method. This is part 2 of the video showing the center batteries removal, for the outer batteries, watch part 1 • Macbook Battery Replac...
NOTE* - The possibility of a fire hazard with li-ion batteries is very real. Keep a fire extinguisher ready and nearby just in case your laptop explodes and catches fire! Please wear proper safety equipment such as protective goggles, air filter mask, gloves etc. Ensure that you have a proper vented place as fumes from li-ion batteries may be toxic. Please read all the comments from everyone before you even begin to do anything.
DISCLAIMER* - I am in no way liable for any harm to anyone or damage to any property if you follow this procedure. This video is for educational purposes only. The procedure is EXTREMELY RISKY, and there is a chance that YOUR LAPTOP MAY CATCH FIRE OR YOUR BATTERIES MAY EXPLODE and YOU MAY BE INJURED, PERMANENTLY DISABLED and/or even "DIE". If you are going to follow this procedure, then you are doing so at your own risk and liability.
To summarize other comments and add some suggestions:-
If you're going for the brute force method then use some heavy duty gloves to save hurting your fingers. Or even better - tie the wire around 2 sticks/screwdrivers/spoons/keyrings.
As an alternative to nylon, dental floss, fishing wire and cheese cutting wire I would suggest using an individual strand of Paracord. As others have suggested soaking the string in alcohol helps too. I would avoid using anything metal.
Detach battery clip from rest of laptop before starting and hold down on the power button for 10 seconds to discharge. Running the battery to empty first might also be a sensible idea. Take your time and be careful not to damage or lean on any other parts of the laptop (the speaker clips are quite fragile at the sides).
Use Goo Gone / Sticky Off or equivalent (it's an orange-smelling liquid) to help remove the adhesive strips once you have taken out the batteries.
Prepare for a worst case scenario. Wear safety googles and have a fire extinguisher to hand as the batteries can easily be punctured and catch fire/explode.
I normally sellotape the case screws to a sheet of A4 paper with a rough drawing of the laptop, showing where I removed each screw from.
Thanks for the video, helped to visualize what was required and where the adhesive strips are. Someone should let iFixit know that total dissambly is not necessary.
Thanks for your method, worked great. A tip I don't see anyone saying is before doing the work, use the laptop and discharge the old batteries until your mac shutdown, so the old batteries have less energy and there is less of a chance of fire from the cells. Also is safer to dispose the old batteries.
he did mention that in part 1
Best solution - took me 5 minutes to remove battery, used nylon fishing line and a couple of rings as handles, Thanks
Did the same. Took 5 minutes. The trouble I have is that the system does not recognize the battery. Is there something wrong I did?
@@virtualinfluencer I know this is one month old, the same happened for a friend I did this. In his case, one of the battery connections was broken (the pins) so it would not recognize the battery, though the laptop booted. We got a new battery to not get in trouble with charging :(
Excellent idea. I knew when I saw your video I had the answer to all your struggles. I made a garrot out of .020 stainless steel wire and two, one inch, rings of steel. The key for me was to saw back and forth with the wire. The rings were perfect. They allowed me to apply a lot of pressure without any pain whatsoever. I'm certain that you could have done the same with your thin cord. The battery removal took only a few minutes. You paved the way and I just improved on your method. Thank you.
This is a good idea, but fishing line is a better option. It's generally worthwhile to avoid metal tools in electronics, and that's especially so when working with a powered device. It's easy to accidentally short electrical contacts and fry a component.
I just did my early 2013 MBP 2 days ago with this technique. I used a couple of 1/2" x 4" long galvanized carriage bolts as garrote handles, and about 18" of 24-gauge steel wire. My kid held the laptop, and I was able to quickly and easily slice through the adhesive pads to remove the original LiPO battery cells. It was nearly effortless.
If you don't disconnect the original battery first, well, you're foolish. The only thing I'd recommend is that you're very careful when using wire ... don't forget that it's bare steel and it's quite conductive (DUH)! I lit a small section of mine up like a lightbulb filament for a second - no damage, no burns, but it was glowing yellow hot and smoking nicely, and of course freaked us out. :) After that, things were uneventful and the old battery was out.
Great idea - thanks for the motivation to do this myself!
Awesome! My 12-yo son and I just did this and it worked great! I just had Teflon “Glide” floss around, didn’t feel like going to a Home Depot. It took several pieces (broke at least 10 times) but easy to slip behind the batteries. Slow and steady-let the floss do the work. Even left a minty-fresh smell when done! Thanks for posting-very helpful!
"It's surprisingly easy" - *struggles to catch breath*
It takes less time then using a plastic scraper…
Thank you!! You helped another person save several several hundred dollars and lots of concern over damaging systems with alcohol! My batteries were swollen to ridiculous sizes, and this method was perfect for the safe removal. Thanks for posting, and I love your honest and humble narration throughout the process. Much appreciated!
you are an absolute legend man, i mean thank god we have smart people like you out there, i watched your first video it was awsome thank you sooooooooooo much.
lol, i'm no genius and I know that ... necessity is the mother of invention my friend ... I didnt wanna lose my macbook pro over alcohol and I didnt wanna pay the apple store a freakin $250 for a new battery ... :)
This is probably the safest & quickest method out there. Just use the new battery's included screwdrivers as handles with the string ends wrapped-tied around them and you're good to go. Thanks man!
Today I just used this method to remove and re-install a new battery on my MacBook. I bought an adhesive remover and used a syringe to squirt the liquid in between and under each battery. Then used some string that you use to fly a kite to slither my way underneath them. Adhesive remover made it so much easier! I Used a plastic flat tool to pop each one out. Also, when I was removing the two middle ones I accidentally removed the plate with them. Be careful as that plate is easily bendable and the flex of the trackpad is under the plate. However, all went well and inserted my new battery. Remember to unplug the battery flex and remove the two screws that are part of the flex. Also, the bottom part of the two middle batteries was stuck tight under the two screw holders, so just be extra careful. If it wasn't for this video I would have had to remove the whole board.
Cheers!
awesome insight ... thanks :)
Thankyou Tarunpreet Ubhi. The shop a rang up to get mine replaced with told me it would take him 4 hours at a cost of £160.00 You Legend!
Tried this, ordered battery and 1.5mm nylon twisted thread. Took around 10 minutes maximum to get the old battery out. Broke the thread a few times and wore motorcycle gloves when pulling to avoid hand injury. Thanks for this tip. It's brilliant.
haha omg I am out of breath watching this!! thank you, I just got a mid 2014 mbp that needs a battery replacement, and I was debating on taking it into a shop or taking out the logic board, i'm so glad I don't have to do the long route anymore, thank you so much for this you are a hero
thank you so much Vinh :)
Great guide, I used thin metal hanging wire, cut straight through the adhesive easily. Guitar string would also work well. New battery cost £50, so I saved £150 from the Apple repair price of £200!
Nice! This is great, thank you! Worked fine for me. Just used a little nylon hanging wire and rubbed a bit of alcohol on it. Came right out, not much struggling. (Discharged battery first by running down to 0% and letting cool
off)
Thank you so much. You made this process so easy for so many people. Thanks again
You sir, are brilliant -- thanks for the innovative approach ^,-
Great video - thank you for being so brave! I'd never have dared just go for it like that but seeing the result I bought a new battery from Duracell Direct (fits well enough if not absolutely perfectly lined up to the screws by the plug). I used whipping twine from my sailing kit (stronger than floss and thinner than the cord you used). It took about 5 minutes to get the battery free and I avoided bending the screw lugs at the front of the case by being a bit less gung-ho! LOL. I used a bit of IPA to help clean the residual glue but was very careful around the trackpad.
Total cost £74.40. Total Time about 30 minutes. Total satisfaction at completing the job.
Compared to local computer bod £160 + machine away all day
Compared to Apple - £199 + 2 x 65 mile round trips but they had no appointments available anyway + machine away for at least a week
Compared to nearest Apple reseller - £297.42 + 2 x 10 mile round trips + machine away for 3 days
Compared to big city Apple reseller - £390 + 2 65 mile round trips because they insisted they needed to replace the entire top assemby including keyboard and trackpad!
So I am typing this on a newly flat Macbook pro. All working fine, battery calibrated and between us we've save a top assembly from landfill. Well done fella! Thank you so much!
I never knew so many people would watch this video and come up with so many better ways to do this same thing. Looking at all the different variants and enhancements everyone has done over the years, I feel such a fool. LOL ... thanks for your kind words. Enjoy the (almost new) MacBook with a working Trackpad ;)
The strongest, thinnest thread I have ever used is a polyester thread that is used for sailmaking. I will give this technique a go tomorrow. I will use a couple of sticks to hold the thread, seeing how much force you had to apply. I would suggest completely discharging the battery, working with gloves and a face shield, and being near a door so you can throw the mac outside if a cell catches on fire. You DO NOT want to breath the toxic fumes, especially Hydrogen Flouride (HF), Phosphorous PentaFlouride (PF5) and Phosphoryl Flouride (POF3), among others.
Love the simple and easy solution, This video should pop-up as the first way to remove a battery on the retina MacBooks. I followed the iFixit way and disassembled my complete logic board. With the bigger chance now that when reassembled it might not work.
A guitar b string wrapped around 2 bolts and some electrical wire did the job nicely! Thanks for the videos!
Nice video. The key is to use something non conductive (better safe than sorry), like fishing line , very thin and strong , the thinner the less force you apply. For thick lines like the video , soaking with alcohol also dissolves and lubes the path. Also put some rings as handles so it wont cut your skin :).
Thanks a lot for sharing this and putting it on video. I was going to follow the iFix guide, but didn’t want to as it basically was a full tear down to un glue the batteries. I had been putting it off repair for about a year before I swapped out batteries.
You sir, are a genius! Thank you so much for saving my MacBook Pro!
Thanks! it worked great! Folks, do remember calibrate your new batteries and dispose off your old batteries properly, there are videos on youtube.
Waxed dental floss works better as it cuts the glue but its a workout. You get a like buddy and deserve your beer. Lol
Such an obvious and simple solution once you see it. Someone should update the iFixit tutorial with this technique. My MBP battery just died, and this will save me a ton of work. Thank you for sharing this!
Fishing line would be good also. Nice idea
Excellent stuff, thanks! Lots of great addons in the comments here too like soaking the thread in alcohol etc.
Thanks!! Awesome video! Used a hair-dryer on hot to get stuck batteries out since I didn't have glue-remover.
Had changed my macbookpro 2012 too ,it takes so much effort to take of those glues
Thank you def wear gloves im about to do this myself
Thanks, worked like a charm. I used butcher's (cotton) twine and the battery was out in 5 minutes although I didn't seem to experience as much resistance as I saw in the video. I tried soaking the twine in rubbing alcohol for the last couple batteries based on some of the other comments but it didn't seem to make a difference.
Grab that beer and next time use grommets for hand protections and dental floss. Great 2 part video and thank you. I will be doing this soon. God Bless You.
thank you so much, I realized this after so many people commented.
I'm here because I just swapped out the battery on my Macbook Air mid 2012. There are literally 5 screws and no adhesive, it's a 10 minute job. This is purely done to make you pay apple. What a farce. I admire your courage to DIY though, 10/10.
Your cynicism is misguided.
Batteries can get very hot when charging, and heat is the enemy of electronics. (Heat is bad for batteries, too, but there's no avoiding it. Blame chemistry; battery charging is an exothermic process.)
The purpose of the adhesive (in those Macs that use it) is to improve thermal conductivity between the battery and the case. Itdissipation
To the commenters: floss isn't strong enough, and likely something like butchers twine isn't, either. It'll work, but you'll go through quite a bit of it. Bit of advice anyone with soldering experience will tell you: bust out the heat gun set on *LOW*. Will take two seconds to complete. Direct the heat *under* the battery as you begin to pull it away. You can also cover the top of the cells using something like tinfoil or better, kapton tape. A quick blast of heat should do the trick. Rule of Thumb: if it won't burn your hand, it's completely safe to direct onto your components. I found my way here from ifixit's battery replacement guide, which is total garbage because it has you disassembling the whole machine (obv. not the intent of Apple's engineers).
You can use a pure-wire guitar string, with each of the ends wrapped around a dowel of wood, to cut through the stickers under the battery blocks. more easily A strong nylon fishing line will work as well. Anything thick like this nylon cord is going to have a tougher time cutting through the adhesive pads, as deomnstrated.
Simply perfect ! Thank you very much indeed Tarunpreet Ubhi ! This for sure is astute !
Thank you for risking your laptop to make life easier for the rest of us LOL 😂 😂.. Just kidding... Very helpful video indeed especially when iFixit has 100's of steps to do just that ;-)
That’s the way I’ll do it. Thanks for the video!
I just bought a second hand MBP that has over 1750 battery cycles, the cost to replace the battery by an Apple service dept. is 300 euros, no way I would throw that money on top of the 1000 euros I already spent to purchase the laptop.
Your amazing video saves me 150 euros, I just removed the battery cells all by myself.
Did you install a fresh genuine Apple battery, if yes where did you buy it and how much did it cost.
Best.
So... what kind of battery did you buy for your macbook, and are you satisfied with the new one ? lasts as it should ?
Genius way of taking them off with thread.
Will be trying this out soon! Thanks!!
Worked like a champ
I tied a small screwdriver to each end of the string, saves your hands and makes it easy to use a sawing motion to cut the tape.
This worked really well for me!
Next time coil the rope on some pencils ✏️ or spoons 🥄 so it doesn’t cut into your fingers
I know ... i was such an idiot in hindsight :)
Bravo ! Thanks for sharing your work !
i am used dental floss, its better choice :)
I did too, it was surprisly easy.
brvoigt I plan to use floss as well
thanks for this
Great vid man. Wear some gloves next time though lol
I know ... my poor hands ! lol ... thanks :)
Excellent video, i've just got my new battery from ebay and will copy your method. Screw messing around will solvents, lets get this over with quickly!
Replaced the battery now using this method, it took about 15 to 20 minutes. Very simple and it is very unlikely that you can damage your macbook this way.
depends on what thread you use, if you use metal thread like some people have used, strong chance you're gonna burn up the house, but otherwise a very safe method :) ... glad to be of help !
wow, 3 dislikes ... what's there to dislike in this video ... trolls I tell you :P
I think people want the entire process because i think theres a certain order in which ur supposed to unplug the battery and other things(dont quote me) this video is for people who have already got the back panel off and are just at the stage where they remove the battery, plus no tutorial on how to put in the new battery
His impatience is one thing to dislike.
@@ryanjelinek3969 This is part 2
apple dislikes this
thanks, this method is workable.
Maybe alcohol could help smoother the glue? Or acetone if it doesn't damage other stuff
Nice idea bro.
That’s how they remove windshields in cars 🚗
Good info, I was afraid I would break anything important under there..
great video, thx. any idea where I can get a good quality replacement battery for MacBook 15" 2015?
Thx
Battery ordered. Fingers crossed it all goes well! I did notice there are two batteries for the 2012 mid Retina MacBook pro 15" which look identical, one with 6460mAh and 8460mAh. Not sure if both would work but I ordered the 8460mAh as it is the same one as in my laptop.
where did you order your battery? tips for shopping for one? Thanks!
Cash4Fruit hey I ordered it here in the Czech republic I don't think they dispatch worldwide though :(
I know this is probably a stupid question, but im just trying to get prepared before i try this. How do you install the new battery once you've taken out the old one? and are there any wires that need to be disconnected and reconnected to the batteries before removal and during installation of the new ones? My battery's on 1123 cycles and i kind of bought a new battery without realising that it was a hugely difficult task.
the new battery comes with double side tape. just peel and stick. watch the first part of the video to know how to do this the easy way. people have made many many comments to ease the pain :)
Is it possible to take the battery out without destroying it? I just need to replace the trackpad cable.
ojo3lo same question, I’ve been scanning comments.. not sure.
If you're going to the trouble of doing this job, just replace the battery. A new battery is $67.99 on Amazon at the time of this writing.
thanks so much, really helpful!
ur welcome :) ... i'm glad it's helping people out !
thx worked!
saved 200 € ^^ (now the battery just has to work)
I took some normal strings, took 4 of them together and then got myself a Little paper folded it into a small Long shape, and wrapped my strings around it.
so I had a grip to hold and sturdy strings because I used four of them
I would explain it better if english was my first language but I hope someone can make sense of it.
after that you can save the thread for eye brow threading
Some dental floss and a little 91% isopropyl Alcohol works well to get each battery out. No need for bigger string and you should have floss on hand.
Interesting method but it seems like you've bent the two screw holders upwards at the trackpad
what about Molybdenum Wire ??
I would not use that wire, it's metallic, might just cut into the batter and cause a fire :)
@@UbhiTS Dental floss soaked in acetone or alcohol?
Er, it would help if we saw the Macbook Pro with the new battery installed up and running and everything working as it should. I assume it was, but . . .
After watching several of these battery replacement videos, I'm starting to think:
1) It should be possible to remove the battery without destroying it. Any reason this is not possible? (for example if I just want to disassemble an aging machine, clean it, and reassemble, clean the track pad, etc.)
2) I like the idea of wearing gloves and using a cotton thread soaked in ISOpropyl, great idea.
3) I like the idea of not attempting it yourself and having a helper. And I like the idea of not allowing your touchpad to soak for 30 mins in alcohol.
1) totally possible
2) agree
3) totally agree
:)
Tarunpreet Ubhi thank you guys
You wouldnt have been so out of breath if you would have sawed more and less trying to pull it though the adhesive. Try fishing line too.
i know i know, this video is turning out to be "what not to do" kinda video ... lol, but i'm glad people are improving on this method and not paying the apple freakin store $300 for a new battery with 15 days repair time !!!
Tarunpreet Ubhi, Try $575 plus tax....
Was it ok after placing the new battery? Did it work well? Thank you
Yes, it's been working as good as new, I got more than 6 hours with the new battery :)
I got the battery from ebay ... the seller was "ayagroup" and this was the title of the item "OEM Apple Macbook Pro Retina 15" A1417 A1398 Mid 2012 Early 2013 Battery 95WH", but I dont see that item on their list anymore ... but you should be able to find an OEM battery for $51 ... I got mine at that price
Which t-shirt you put under your MacBook Pro is very very important. :)
Is the touchpad protected by a plate? Does this mean it is okay to put the IPA all over that area as long as its tilted down and not towards the motherboard?
O hhh man what a stressful video, im sweating ...... Nice method thank you, did the new battery work?
Yes, it worked for 3.5 years, then did a replacement again. But this time, I didn't sweat ... lol
really cool, i am gonna try this as well... might put on a pair of nice thick workinggloves though...... Where did you buy your new accu?
whoop, just discovered your answer about ebay
Just a silly question from a guy who's about to try this because the cell in his Mid--2014 are so swollen up the back cover can't really hold them anymore: why would I want to glue the new battery? I'm not even sure why the original one was glued in the first place!
Is it just me?
it's justy to ensure that once the battery is in there, it does not move even a millimeter and cause stress on the connection or the motherboard. I'll be honest, I've personally glued my batteries back since you need to do this only once in the lifetime of the macbook, or maybe twice in 4 to 7 years
@@UbhiTS Thanks for getting back to me on this but are you truly saying that they designed the battery and the only way for it not to move was to glue it and a set of four screws plus the fact that's locked on the bottom side because of its shape and everything is actually then kept in place by the back cover wasn't enough?
My Mac is mid2014 and it still rocks! Changing the battery could be incredibly easy and yet it's been made risky and difficult. I don't know if I'll have to replace the battery again (it could be, e.g. this battery I just bought could be not so performant as I'm expecting it to be) and I don't want to go this way one more time, not even the slightest chance.
You could have tied the ends of the string around a pencil to minimize the pain on your hands...
Use pieces of wood as handles for the thread.
I have exactly that model and am in need of a new battery. The Apple store wants to charge $478 to replace the battery, the track pad and the keyboard keys!! I told them no thanks... Any chance you'd replace mine? Thanks for the info...well done.
Maryanne Waugh no problems ... if you live near union city,ca I would do it for you free 😊
How I wish! Thanks for the offer. Happy New Year!
What apple store are you all going to charging you $250? They quoted me $750!!!!!!!!! and a 2 week turnaround time for it to be done.... WTF
LOL ... easier and cheaper to do it ourselves ... my MBP has been working like new ever since I changed the battery, 5 hours running time !
Had it not been the case of Apple, $750 could give you an impression of the quotation being for a new laptop instead !! LOL
Gloves my friend!
I know ... I feel kinda dumb !!!
:(
good idea
Success
so do u still think solvent will damage the track pad? since its under that plate ...
i'm no expert, but I think juggling the alcohol around can cause it to leak below the plate ... but I could be wrong
What did u use to glue ur new battery back in..?? I just did this to my rMBP but the new battery just slides around in there whenever i pickup my laptop.. Would like to secure it down, but don't see what people use to secure the new battery.. Thanks..
DaddyFatSackz you can you 3M double sided tape that you normally get in Home Depot or lowes
wear thick gloves when doing this....!
Where did you get your replacement battery?
I would also like to know this!
Ebay has plenty, try searching for a reputable seller an use terms like genuine or official.
After replacing battery does the cycle reset?
yes, it does
Hi. What macbook pro exactly is this? thanks
coolermaster looks like my a1398. The battery is an a1417
Any idea if that would work with a fishing string? It should cut easier through the adhesive. And also, it's easier to anchor around the corners.
That's a great idea. I'm about to try it on mine, probably use 20lbs test and just take it easy. I'm a little worried about cutting between the battery plate and the trackpad. From what I've seen online (or lack of), if I damage the trackpad I'm screwed.
Matt Bram i think (might be wrong though) the plate is supposed to stay with the trackpad. So if you cut between the plate and the battery, the trackpad flex cable should be ok.
Cool cool, thanks for the heads up.
So as I found out, this method is the safest for the trackpad as there is no chance of any alcohol getting behind the trackpad and the string only gets in between the plate and the battery, the cable is as safe as donald trump in a bunker or air force one ;)
It worked fine with a new battery?
Yes, it's been working as good as new, I got more than 6 hours with the new battery :)
Did the touchpad cable survive?
yes sir, alive and kicking. It's actually embedded beneath the metal plate, so totally safe to do this :)
@@UbhiTS Yeeehaw! Thanks for the tip.
Club Hotel Cantamar do i get a deal if i come to your hotel :) ... Lol
@@UbhiTS Of course! :) See you in La Paz, Mexico! :)
probably my accent I think :D
Lighter fluid and an old credit card
bad idea, lighter fluid, li-ion battery, bend or puncture, BOOM !
@@UbhiTS well... it didn't go boom and worked perfectly dissolving the adhesive. Much like the highly flammable liquid sold by iFixit. You're just as likely to make it go boom by puncturing any li-ion battery. Especially if you're not using anything to dissolve the adhesive.
@@MisterStuzy I'm really happy it worked for you. Personally I wont go anywhere near lighter fluid as I've seen li-ion batteries going up in flames by even just bending. And if you add lighter fluid to this scenario, results can be not good. But that said, however you can safely replace the battery is a job well done :)
@@UbhiTS I realise on the surface, the name. 'Lighter Fluid' does conjure up images of 'boom' and 'oh my god what is he doing!' haha. I did already know it's a good adhesive dissolving fluid. After reading the guide on iFixit and the fluid the sell is just as flammable for a much higher price, so, it seemed a risk worth taking. I'm a crazy guy! (I'm not really.. I've clearly gone crazy staying at home for so long). Anyway, as it dissolved the adhesive, I had a far easier job sliding a card beneath, the battery came away easily. If it's going to explode, the small amount of lighter fluid wouldn't make a huge difference. Of course, now, if anyone else does it - that's up to them, don't blame me when the house burns down ;) I think though I'd try some other suggestions if I do another, WD-40 or Acetone (nail varnish remover) are meant to be effective - and maybe less 'boom' :) Thanks for the reply and I hope i didn't sound too flippant. Cheers.
A word of advice: Do your best NOT to touch any of the printed circuitry on the Logic Board. The static electricity stored in your body can blow minuscule holes in the circuitry which you will not see. Your computer will probably work fine but you may have diminished its total life-span considerably without realising. That is why certified technicians must use anti-static procedures and why all printed circuit boards are transported in anti-static bags. It's very sensitive equipment. At the very least you should make sure the battery is completely flat before disconnecting it (to avoid possible fire by piercing a battery cell) and once disconnected, press the power button for approximately 10 seconds to discharge any power left in the system. Cheers.
fucking new macbook pro..to much separative battery hards to take out..
this could have been attached with coupe of screws fucking apple
Someone introduce apple to freaking screws... The only reason I stay away from Macs.
How the hell did we get to a point where this is normal and acceptable??
catch your breadth? really dude?
yup ... really ( pant, pant, gasp, gasp ... )