I'm a level 3 EV tech in Norway, and batteries catching on fire by themselves is extremely rare. Even in collisions it's quite rare. You can't put out a battery fire, but you can control it by cooling it (with water). We replace single modules every day. When you replace them you have to balance the voltage to match the old modules. Then you won't overload any of them.
Thank you! I was very confused as to why a supposed expert on EVs would claim that it isn't possible to replace only a single module with a new one. That is why battery balancing procedures exist! Battery packs are repaired all the time that way with no ill effects. If this Dirk guy is the best the US has to offer, well, Eric is definitely correct that we are wayyy behind Europe.
@@applehuggerIt can be true for some batteries that module swapping is not a permanent fix. It is entirely dependent on battery and BMS architecture. On classic Tesla batrery packs when doing module swaps it is bound to happen where the swapped modules will always drift at a different rate and after a couple of years the BMS can no longer keep up with the balancing of the swapped module. Then you get the main BMS saying no as the cells are too far away from each other and you are back to square one. Hence the only long lasting solutions are to cut fuses from the individual cells for all modules if you have one bad cell OR drill out the one bad cell from the module and replace it with a sufficiently cycled same kind of cell. With this method you are not replacing too much of the battery module's capacity for the BMS to not be able to balance the module in the future.
it feels like your energy is in a better place now. I recall your early videos and you weren't always in a great place but persevered. I hope for your continued growth, joy, and success in life.
Thanks, Eric. It's great to hear this from you. So many of us EV owners can't talk to 'car guys' or mechanics without stirring up some negative feelings one way or another. I've owned loud and fast cars that run on leaded 100 and E85 for years. I've printed a lot of speeding tickets. I probably still have a larger left leg from all the clutch work. I've turned wrenches, bled, and done some sketchy shit on cars. Lots of rubber left in the burnout box, lots of money left on the dyno. I get it. I consider myself a 'car guy'. But I lose that when talking to other 'car guys'. I'm on my second EV. I didn't get into one for green reasons, to make a 'statement', or anything like that. I got into it because when gas is $5/gallon, (my first) EV cost as much to drive as a gas car getting 120 MPG. Cheeeap. My parking spot is also my gas station. I plug it into my dryer outlet when I want to charge quick or just a 120V outlet when I just need to make up for the commute. My second EV is a Kia. And guess what, it hauls ass. With a full charge, this thing runs a low to mid 11 sec quarter mile around 120. 60 MPH comes in just over 3 seconds and it'll top out around 160. Right from the factory. And it only cost about as much as a fully spec'd out Rav4. The battery will take up to 200,000 watts of 800V power to charge from 20-80% in about 15 minutes on a road trip. It has AWD. I love it. It lacks soul, yes. And I do miss rowing through the gears. It's a heavy pig in the corners. But man, it still puts a hell of a smile on my face. You're dead on with following the money. MECHANICS. Look, nobody other than stealerships wants to touch these things. They're scared shitless of them. They still have ball joints, bearings, steering racks, A/C condensers, brakes, and 12V electrical systems. In many ways these things are the same cars you wrench on all day long. They're also wicked expensive to work on, as Eric pointed out. But if you can undercut the dealership on labor, which most independent shops do normally, you will have customers lined up. If you can source refurb or used parts, you're getting your customers a better deal than they usually get. Just put a sign out front saying you work on EVs and your phone will ring. I miss my local independent. I wish they would work on my car. But I know when this lease is up I'm not going to buy it because I'll be stuck taking it to the dealership for the inevitable maintenance. Also, if you sell tires, they print money. EVs are heavy as all hell, have gobs of torque, and take expensive tires. My summer tire set is $1,600 at the discount shop. I don't know what their margins are, but you fine folks need to get a piece of that action. Seriously. Take our money.
Great comment and true on all points. I miss the independent shop I trusted my VW to and am not looking forward to relying on Volvo for my maintenance. There is so much that can be done outside of the battery and electric motors and I feel shops are really missing out on this.
One of the fire suppression methods currently being researched that I really like involves setting an industry standard interface for a fire suppression device that would hook to a saline tank carried by firefighters. It takes a ludicrous amount of saline to begin suppressing a battery fire, and really you're not suppressing the fire so much as forcing a controlled rapid release of remaining energy within the battery's chemistry, but the fact that there's talk of an industry-wide standard is encouraging!
I am a mechanic. I work on a lot of stuff, from industrial deisle to some of the new GDI cars. I love and welcome the electric age of cars, and i do feel they may be the answer, but we have at least 50 years to perfect the tech, like we did with the internal combustion engines. Love the channel Eric, been a fan for years, and I'm glad you're back!
I got ev certified though nissan a while back now and i dont regret it at all, making bank on it and really i find them easier to work on then ice vehicles. I like both btw.
I've worked with battery banks for a long time. The big danger with an open battery pack is the high voltage and high current DC is alway present. You cannot turn off a battery. If you short something in a open pack it will melt it or outright vaporize what ever you shorted. Alway insulated tools, always gloves and no distractions. It is pretty much like working on live electrical panel, something electricians hate doing. Also DC arcs are hard to break 400 volts can pull a 1 foot arc. I'm not afraid to work batteries I just respect the battery and do everything to avoid mistakes.
I learned in the class that some of the contacts used in EVs are sealed with hydrogen to help mitigate that arc you mentioned. When the hydrogen leaks out, that contact, and possibly the entire system, is toast. Thanks for the comment.
As always I love your attitude Eric! Tech is tech and cars are cars, period. Tbh. I really never got or get the general antipathy towards new tech, like EVs. Why do boatloads of people feel the need to choose sides? It doesn't have to be either/or. There aren't any camps; It's all in your head! Intelligent peope adapt. No one will blame you for being an old school petrol head and be inspired by new tech like EVs at the same time. Rest assured. Just regard it as a nice opportunity to learn about new tech, be enlightened and enhance your skill set, hell maybe even make a few extra bucks on the side while doing so ;-)
Rivian has done a good job in the EV market. Tesla is an embarrassment. They tried to come out with “something new” but they had horrible quality control issues that don’t exist on any other vehicle such as the hoods flying off going down the highway. I think this has caused a lot of negative perception. As a mechanic, EV’s are a nightmare because the only things left to work on are repetitive, non rewarding jobs, the most likely will always be some sort of electrical fault within the wiring harnesses. Nobody wants to spend all day doing brakes and ball joints, it’s like living in hell.
My first ever EV repair was a battery on a 2017 Prius C. 4 hours later i made $350 for that job. There is good coin in it and most community colleges should be updating there curricululms for EV's, i know mine did. It was very helpful and has been beneficial in my time as a technician
Finally, a level-headed take. I do tires primarily on EVs and it's a wonderful business to be in right now. You're also getting a lot of EV-owning subscribers to finally comment and engage with this video. :-)
My great grandfather owned a hardware store and was Fire Chief in Weston Mass. When gasoline became available in the early 1900's it was stored in cans in the creek... Glad you are back... Stay safe, Tim in Texas
Great video. I live in Central Ohio and have driven EVs for the past 8 years. My first one was a Ford Focus Electric and it served me well. However, the one major issue with that car was the coolant hoses that ran through the battery pack would eventually leak. This never caused a fire, but it did put the EV system into fail safe mode and the car would basically brick. I asked around to numerous shops to see if I could get someone to open up the HV battery and check/reinforce the coolant hoses. Literally nobody would touch the car. The dealer would replace the battery if it failed (for $$$$) but wouldn't otherwise work on it. It's understandable that shops were hesitant, since there is clear danger if you don't know what you're doing. But they were also basically saying no to earning more revenue because they didn't have the time or motivation to learn a new skill. EVs are a HUGE opportunity for younger folks who aren't afraid to learn new things or set in their ways about how things "should" be.
The only thing you would learn if you added EV’s to your resume is electrical diagnosis on interior wiring. Batteries, inverters, three-phase motors, they have all been around a long time.
I’m level 2 certified on EV’s in the US there actually is a level 3 here as well and it’s for working on live circuits IE if the battery contact switch gets arc welded together those are the guys who can disconnect it. There are very few of those in the US I’m currently working with Freightliner to obtain mine. I’m a diesel tech by trade but the company I service has been acquiring a few EV tractors so will be nice to have. After having attended all these classes though I can attest that they are very safe to own and operate.
By coincidence, just yesterday I saw the best video that I've ever seen on the problem with ev's. It's titled: "The unpopular truth about electric vehicles", uploaded by Hillsdale college. Definitely worth a watch.
I recently started an independent EV repair shop in Portland Oregon called WattWorks (and worked at a shop in the San Diego area for about 7 years before moving back up here). I work on a little bit of everything from very common cars like the Nissan LEAF, and the various Tesla models, to low volume "compliance cars" like Smarts and Fiat 500es. Though my specialties tend to lie in the Tesla powered cars (including the Toyota RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED, both built under partnerships with Tesla). In my time at QC Charge in San Diego, we were one of the earliest pioneers in rebuilding the Tesla "Large Drive Unit", which is prone to a few different failure modes, though the biggest one these days is coolant intrusion through leaking rotor seals. That remains one of my big specialties at my new shop, but besides that, I also do all sort of other HV system and powertrain related repairs, including repairs to the battery packs. By the way, my daily driver is a 9 year old Tesla Model S with over 465k miles and counting!
@@rkan2 Module swaps are not generally considered to be a "long term viable repair" on Teslas, mainly because the battery management system (BMS) is very sensitive to even the slightest differences in capacity. Even Tesla themselves stopped doing module swapping on their in house remanufactured packs a couple years ago, because they typically didn't last more than 2 years before falling out of balance. Some other EVs are a lot less sensitive to these issues, or have a BMS that can perform heavier balancing to keep things in check. All that said, particularly on the "classic" Tesla models, a lot of the battery related issues aren't caused by cell failures, but rather moisture intrusion into the battery pack, which can lead to increased humidity and condensation, which creates corrosion in certain areas. On V1.5 packs, this condensation has a tendency to collect on a certain point on the battery monitoring broads on each module, which tends to rot out two of the surface mount capacitors (C26 and C27), which leads to incorrect voltage readings. Additionally, degraded HV isolation can be another issue associated with moisture intrusion. Generally speaking, these issues are usually fixable, as long as there isn't corrosion on the cells themselves. On V2 and up packs, the corrosion issues with the BMS electronics was largely fixed due to an updated design, and they tend to be better sealed, but they can still suffer from moisture intrusion as well. However, there have been a number of cases of separated wire bonds (they connect to the BMS for cell voltage measurements and balancing), which usually seems to coincide with vehicles that have been involved in accidents, but usually not until months or even a year later.
Yep been into them for years. Been to many classes on EV's. Professor John Kelly at Weber university does a great job explaining Ev's on his channel. Just love the technology.
If you have an ev battery module that is slightly different than the rest, sometimes you can slowly drain all cells down and recharge to level it out. It takes days to do it properly, but it has worked for me.
The internet is full of used Tesla 18650 batteries from old modules, sold in bulk. The only thing I've heard of people using them for (big quantities) is DIY solar systems. After purchase, people test and restore the cells, with many getting scrapped. I'm sure there are people using them for other things too.
3:46 You are talking about 18650 battery cells, electronic cigarettes use them, laptops use them, power tools use them, exit lights use them, electric cars use them and the list goes on and on. A really versatile battery cell. Maybe I didn't start to claim that the batteries of electric cigarettes are particularly fire-sensitive and at the same time praise the batteries of power tools or electric cars because they both use the same type. :D
Saves the manufacturer time, and gives technicians more and more headaches. Gotta love it. Can’t wait till nobody remembers how to drive a manual or even build an ICE. I suspect in the future people will even forget how to wire inverters as they become more and more common. Gonna be straight electrical diagnosis and garbage maintenance items. People don’t even want to pay a few hundred for a new timing chain so i doubt they can afford a new inverter or battery pack. Wait till they figure out about vehicles shutting off for the police and the built in trackers..
There's a good bit of money to be made, but I'm sure insurance companies will be asking about if you service EV's and adjusting your rates accordingly. Just like if they ask on your homeowner's if you have a dog and what breed it is. I'm glad you are bringing up this topic and discussing it but for me I'm not willing to risk my shop and tools, everything I've worked for over decades, to have it all burn because Musk is too busy trying to be in politics than run a company and its not like he runs a company well either nor is he an engineer in any way shape or form. For those of you who choose to work on these I'm guessing its going to be a specialty shop just like places that do Euro cars or rotarys. But for those who do EV you will have a completely different way of how the shop is built and set up. There will need to be isolations from other bays and ways to keep the toolboxes further back along with a rapid removal system should a fire occur. These are things the normal repair shop isn't designed for and it presents a danger to the techs who have to pull in an EV next to their toolbox and rack it just like a normal car. It isn't a normal car. I'll be hanging out with the rest of the dinosaurs helping people who want to keep ICE vehicles in service. If I was a young tech at a dealer I'd go for the EV certs heavy and start a profitable career, but I'm not.
I can appreciate the fact you are embracing the new technology. Stay Safe my friend! I had a lithium battery in my jump starter get too warm and it woke me up to that issue. But vape pens are more prevalent and getting them wet could be an everyday problem.
9:25 back in the early 90’s This company Tekin. Made there Speed controller for Rc car. That did that except. They called it High frequency regenerating. It’s Tekin 411-p2 to be exact. Kinda reminds me of that.
You don't need much water to put out a battery fire. But you do need a way to deliver that water directly INSIDE the battery housing under enough pressure to overcome any outgassing pressure that may be going on. The fancy way of doing so is using a waterjet lance. The low-tech version is to use a hollow spike and pound it into the battery while running water through it. You need three things for a fire: fuel, oxidizer and HEAT. Quenching the battery cells by injecting water inside the battery pack removes the heat in a few minutes using about one gallon of water per kWh.
I don't know much about these but I do know that some of the most dramatic explosions happen when elemental lithium or sodium is exposed to water. Presumably the lithium is bonded to something else to make it more stable?
@@spelunkerd There is little exposed elemental lithium in a lithium battery. It is either in oxidized form at the cathode, in lithium salt ion form while passing through the electrolyte or embedded in anode graphite. If you ripped the anode from a charged battery and dunked it in water, you would get a slow reaction since water molecules are too large to reach lithium atoms beyond the graphite's outer surface. The problem with NMC/NCA batteries is not the lithium. It is the electrolyte and separator's decomposition generating lots of oxydants during thermal runaway, hence the difficulty in snuffing them out through conventional means. You cannot put out a self-oxidizing fire by cutting the air supply when it doesn't need to keep going. LFP batteries need to get about 20C hotter before that happens and decomposition requires ~4X as much heat, making thermal runaway harder to trigger, harder to sustain and much slower. When LFP packs go thermal, they are far less exciting to watch, looking almost like a regular fire log.
@@ETCG1 Fire trucks already have lots of specialized equipment to deal with the most common fire and rescue situations. Having a 100L dewar flask filled with a cryogenic hazard that needs to get topped up at least once a week due to boil-off and all of the related equipment including personal protection wouldn't be practical. Nitrogen also displaces oxygen and would pose an asphyxiation hazard for people in the immediate area who don't have an oxygen mask while liquid nitrogen tanks are being dumped into the battery. The water injection spike on the other hand is just a fire hose attachment. Hang a pair (EV-on-EV action where both batteries go thermal) next to the axes used to drive them in. Can be added to the whole fleet for ~$100 per truck.
Wow...very interesting. With the inverters being aprox 10K, I can see why new EVs are so expensive. I'm not an EV fan, but realize I will have to give in at some point in the future. Thanks for the video.
Eric, look up a company called Form Energy. They are working on an Iron-Air rust battery that is supposed to have crazy capacity. The technology was researched by Honda back in the 70s. They found the batteries to work, however, they didn't know how to mass produce them.
This is the way it's going whether people like it or not, might as well embrace it. Gas vehicles aren't going to disappear in our lifetime though. It's just another thing they keep us fighting over in the culture war so we don't start a class war.
Jehugarcia has made a decent living from used batteries. On the battery fires the answer might be in finding a way to freeze the battery so the battery would lose its charge
Talked to our local mechanic and he said that, in the case of Teslas, the service centers just do software and electrical/electronics and don't touch mechanicals (tires, brakes, bearings, suspension..etc). And that are the mechanical parts are actually derived from existing parts from Cadillacs. As far as construction goes, they don't find the cars to be well built.
"You're welcome" 😂 Thanks, Eric 😅 My friend purchased Prius transmissions for nothing, disassembled them and sold copper few years back (in Russia). Because nobody needs these transmissions as they are, they don't break. But the copper inside them is a different story.
from what I've heard is fire departments are filling a large dumpster or dump truck with water and dropping in. Other departments are burying the cars in sand when the batteries are in thermal over load.
In most places in EU there are two different types of regulation which affects EV repair work: the vehicle or electrical code / law and employment law. Thus if you are self employed or privately doing stuff, often sky is the limit and you don't necessarily need any qualifications. However if you are employed, it is generally the employer's responsibility to make sure you are qualified to do the work, or otherwise they can be held liable. Obviously you'll still be liable if you do something wrong outside employment.
I’ve already started working on EV’s. Did you know that all of Tesla’s service manuals are online and available at no charge? Also you can buy 1 day or 1 month subscriptions to Tesla Toolbox 3? I’ve starting with simple things like replacing the Pyro fuses. You can charge a good rate and still make money over the dealership rate. If you’re a tech with some EE experience it’s pretty easy stuff. You just need to understand how to work around voltages that can be deadly. Some might need a cert. Also Eric those individual cells are called 18650 batteries. They are mass produced and ubiquitous among industry.
I work with fire crews and EV fires are a nightmare. Foam doesnt work because you simply can't get it inside the pack, and if you cant coat the cells foam is useless. Water only works because it cools everything enough to prevent flaming combustion but the moment you let up with the water, the fire will start back up again if all the energy hasnt been exhausted. They can re-ignite literally days later. If you can somehow submerge the battery for a period of time, that can work. But thats difficult to do with a whole car.
The problem of it re-igniting is caused by the pack not being full discharged. As long as there it still power in the pack there is chance of the now damaged pack shorting and starting a new thermal runaway.
@@ETCG1 It should have the same effect of freezing the cells and giving you a few minutes to move it and drop it in a dunk tank. It only works if you have direct access to the cells. Trying to instantly freeze a whole pack is not practical.
@@ETCG1 Probably but it has the same basic issue - the fire is only suppressed while the cells are cooled. Once you run out of liquid nitrogen and they heat back up, combustion will resume. Plus with the added complication of storing and transporting liquid nitrogen. That might be something to consider for like, a permanent fire suppression system built into a specialty structure.
Hi Eric, long term watcher from Vancouver BC 🇨🇦. Congrats to you for being open minded to explore the EV industry and the potential. My wife drives a Tesla and I love my ice engine cars so have real life experience and knowledge of both. Fires from EV's are extremely rare and the stats show that. The EV disruption is happening, and one can stick their head in the sand and be an EV hater or be mature enough to learn new innovations and appreciate the engineering technology. Facts; The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in 2023. YTD in 2024, its No 2 right behind the Toyota Rav and could be No 1 again.
All great points, but I don't think EV's are the way to "save" our future. Or to put a finer point on it, I don't think EVs are the solution to our environmental problems ATM. In fact, they may be making them worse. However, I do think there are places were EV is the best solution to the overall human transportation problem. Thanks for the comment.
@@bjm23vancity92- and the methods used to charge them are improving, by using methods which don’t pull stuff out of the ground (oil, natural gas, coal).
In places like Norway and many other countries with almost limitless hydropower or other countries similarly with solar EVs make a whole lot of sense. In places like Poland where most of the grid is based on fossil fuels you only get one of the biggest benefits of EVs which is no local pollution from an ICE.
BMW replaced the motor electronics and motor on my i3. It cost $20k..... By comparison, when Jag replaced the engine in my F-Pace (yeah, don't ask), it was $50k.... Speaking of fires, about a month ago, a container-size battery module caught fire when the truck rolled over near the port of LA. They closed the freeway for 24 hours before it was out..... There are a bunch of YT videos about - look for San Pedro battery fire
For module replacement - I know the guys in Ukraine do that. They buy some failed batteries for spare, try to revive client cars (there's a lot of points of failure in EV systems), and if the battery doesn't store the charge, replace failed banks with spare ones. Surely, cheap labor, different market. Not sure if that could work for the US.
Honda swaps are getting to the point where there are kits for electric motors, one of my gripes is making it easier to AWD swap without cutting the crap out of the thing, if electric could make this easier I'm interested. Also some of the engine bays look soooooo clean 👌 Just have to come up with some way to project a faux VTEC sound!! 😆🤣🙃
Your comment about the shoebox in a shoe store got me thinking, maybe similar to how some buildings have an external standpipe that first responders can hook a pumper up to and send water through the building sprinkler system, an EV battery pack could have a similar port that could be used to drench the modules from the inside, using water much more efficiently.
You mentioned the vape batteries. I use them with a TP4056 battery management board to power very low load items like led headlamps that use button batteries, or television remotes. They recharge nicely for many cycles when they're taken care of. But I don't charge them when I'm not around, for sure.
I had an Icecream cake. Replacing the full pack is wasteful, but from the manufacture POV, it is safer and all boxes are ticked. From a users POV, getting a module replaced is better some times it is just a faulty connection, or it could be just a cell, many have been fixed and still moving today.
EVs are going to need all kinds of work from suspension, tires, hvac to more complicated electronic fixes. Society will evolve with all this knowledge.
LG Chem has battery module manufacturing in Chna. One of the 2 factories there began to run out of the materials to make the insulation placed between the anode and cathode within the individual cells. What was the typical solution? For an entire month, they used less insulation! Of course, this caused battery pack fires. That quality control ethic caused a billion-dollar recall of all EVs with these cells in the battery packs. If your in the market for an EV, do your research! Question everything. I have a 2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV.
Like I said in the video, I'm an engineering nerd. I also love learning about engineering failures. Guess what? Most of those failures were the result of design changes made by non engineers to save cost. Thanks for the comment.
Some of those videos where they dismantle a tesla, those modules are foam-cemented into a unified battery body, and they run this coolant lines throughout the pack between the columns - I don't think those can be replaced since it's all glued together. Are you thinking of doing electric conversion therapy for some ICE vehicles?
Yes, some cases are glued together and are not meant to be 'serviceable', but if it was put together, it can come apart with some persuasion. I'm open to experiment. Like I said in the video, I've always been an engineering nerd at heart. I just fixed cars because it seemed like the best way to apply that curiosity without attending a 4 year college.
A problem with buying broken/salvage EVs is if the high voltage charging electronics are not working and the high voltage battery is dead, then it is probably a really heavy vehicle to move around. Lucky to have the low rolling resistance tires.
Battery cells are actually much larger than AA. Most common types are 2170 which means 21mm diameter and 70mm length. Tesla is experimenting with 4680 cells now. Smaller the battery higher the charge discharge rate u can achieve. Things get much more complicated with the chemistry and ratio of different metals but that is for battery engineers to determine based on use case
Great video-you really got me thinking! I completely agree that certification should be mandatory for anyone working on EVs, given the significant role electrical engineering plays in their design and maintenance. What are your thoughts on the cost of retooling for independent repair shops to service EVs? With the required investments in training, specialized tools, diagnostic computers, proprietary software, insurance, and more, it seems like the barrier to entry is becoming incredibly steep. Even with ICE vehicles, the complexity has skyrocketed, making it increasingly challenging for smaller shops to stay competitive. Some predict that many independent shops could be priced out of the market within the next decade. Reselling components might become a viable path for independent businesses, whether for ICE or EVs, but that shifts the focus from service to parts sales-essentially turning mechanics into parts distributors. A big shoutout to Professor Kelly for his sobering insights into the facilities, tooling, and expertise needed to service EVs effectively. For anyone interested in detailed reverse engineering and industry perspectives, Monro Live is another fantastic resource worth checking out.
Excellent question that I somewhat explored in this video. ruclips.net/video/8z2Euhw_gAo/видео.html Now that it's been a few years and I know more about EVs, I'm not really sure the direction that things will take. Thanks for the comment.
Interesting and informed perspective. It also seems to me a huge potential market would be portable EV test equipment. How will I know that junkyard inverter is still good before I pull it? And those battery modules, How can I tell without a multimeter and a spec sheet for each brand? Sounds to me like a wide-open market for any DIY Heathkit fans!
The part about inverters that I forgot to mention is that they use 6 transistors to operate. You could also just replace the transistors for about $20. 🤔
It is the current flowing through the body that will stop the heart, It depends on the resistance of the body contact point as to how much current flows through it at the time. It is for this reason to typical residual current devices are set at 30mA and must disconnect in less than 40 milliseconds when tested (@5X rated) as 30mA is considered survivable. Voltage is not a parameter in setting the safety limit, current in mA is. The higher the voltage contacted the easier the current will flow given the same body resistance which is why the risk increases as voltage rises. No two people will have the same resistance. The latest "safety" cut off fitted for EV batteries (now around 800V) disconnect in a few seconds and are present to protect the vehicle electrical/electronic components in the first instance, not human life as the above criteria is not met therefore the "safety" part refers to the vehicle per design. Charging cells in series requires individual cell balancing to prevent overcharging of cells with a high internal resistance to prevent such a cell breaking down and becoming unstable and leading to a potential thermal runaway situation. 800V is not considered safe or acceptable for domestic dwellings that have little comparable risk of mechanical damage impact. These are some things to consider and evaluate along with a personal individual attitude to risk. Don't accept something is "safe" just because someone says it is.
@Ifitwerks I think the reason why it's called "safe" is because a human is able to drop off the wires. When the voltage is higher people are unable to detach themselves and require external help. Maybe I'm wrong?
@@sergeymatpoc I think you are referring to DC Voltage and AC Voltage as DC Voltage presents the greatest danger of being unable to break contact for the reason you mentioned, the word safe has no place with any electrical contact, hope this helps.
Other income opportunities are tires and suspensions, which apparently have higher wear rates on EVs than on similarly-sized ICE vehicles due to battery weights and torque loads.
Brakes - in northern climates - need perhaps annual to every 2 year maintenance. Not because they wear out, but because they don’t get used as much as on an ICE car, and tend to get bound up.
*Will* you *really* see me later? I mean, I live on the west coast and you don't. I have my doubts. But hey, I'll at least see YOU in a later video, so that's nice. 😂
I always approach vehicles as to their purpose and how well they serve it, then factor in costs. So far my purposes for a work truck have not been met by any EV style truck. Specifically range and time to recharge issues. If that ever gets solved then fantastic, I would evaluate that vehicle for my purpose at that time Best of luck with the new EVenture
My concern is that fuel prices will reach an untenable point where we can no longer afford to drive our ICE vehicles, not that electric vehicles will be our only option. Thanks for the comment.
The biggest hurdle to overcome in the EV repair game is the massive depreciation of EVs. There comes a point where they’re not worth fixing, and that point comes much sooner than it would in an ICE vehicle.
An inverter, it does both conversions. I believe a rectifier just works in one direction, AC to DC. @.58 you're looking at a bridge rectifier that we made in class.
We all need to remember that we can't assume the same things are true for regular batteries [12v car batteries or consumer electronic lithium batteries] and electric motors. and the batteries and motors in electric cars. Your starter is usually hung off the low side of the engine block. with no seal on the shaft or the wiring, easily immersed in water. Still reliable. Your car battery is usually unmanaged, exposed to the heat of the engine bay, or under a fender, immersed in water at times [Dodge Journey et al 😂 ], doesn't last the 5-7 years promised, am I right? EV motors are far more sophisticated, battery packs are very well sealed, armored, and protected by structural cases, and their charging an use are very well protected by a myriad of electronics and these cool explosive fuses!🎉 ! to protect them too. and because of this they last far longer.
And about 70% of that is lost to heat during the combustion process. EVs are more energy efficient than ICE vehicles. Sorry. Doesn't mean I like them better BTW.
Well my thoughts are this, if you want to make a fortune, invest in the companies that make gaurd rails, all the guard rails in every country need to be either reinforced, or replaced, cause of the shear weight of an ev, cause they go right through today's guard rail......so they need to be fixed, or replace with stronger devices.
I call BS on that. The most popular vehicle sold in America is the F150, which weights about as much, if not more than an EV. I like the way you think though. Thanks for the comment.
@ETCG1 I agree... But it's what Washington is talking about to usher in all the evs coming.... They are already setting aside the money it's going to take, and you know what that means, more taxes.
I think a lot of the hate towards EVs is a byproduct of how awful new cars in general are becoming. With all the spying on you, heated seat subscriptions, less durability, while the price tag goes up and up. Not to mention the "you'll own nothing and be happy" dystopia of OBD3 if it comes to fruition. Because of all this coupled with the real limitations of EVs currently a lot of people like myself would rather just keep our old shitboxes going forever. But there's genuine fear that one day they might not allowed on the road. I'm not even against converting my truck to electric when the technology gets better. It's not EVs I'm against, its the feeling of ownership diminishing as manufactures lock you out of your own car more and more. Your car now becoming a vector to spy on you and use that data against you. Change isn't bad inherently but I have yet to see a good argument for why these changes I mention taking place are a good thing
I like the link you made between EVs and new cars. I think that might just be spot on. However, I don't think they will take ICE vehicles away from us, I think we'll be able to keep them as long as we want but, I think fuel prices will reach a point where owning an ICE vehicle is just too expensive. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 I don't think ICE cars being banned is very likely. It's just I'm from California and if anybody were to do it, it would be California. There's also zero emission zones popping up around the world and more will pop up over time. These zones prohibit the use of ICE vehicles within them. I don't think its likely to happen in the US and even if it did it would likely be in a few cities. But I don't think its entirely off the table for carb states.
I'm personally more on the side of hydrogen when it comes to alternative fuels since a gasoline engine can potentially be converted into a hydrogen engine. The issue is cost of making the fuel and storing it in a cool environment but if they were able to find a way to use Ocean water to make hydrogen and found better ways of storing it and transporting it to hydrogen gas stations and the cost came down to gasoline prices. That would be the way to go in my opinion. The problem that I have with electric vehicles is that The batteries use a lot of rare Earth materials are very harmful to the environment when it comes to mining and converting those materials into batteries and the batteries don't have that long of a lifespan, degrade over time, and when it does require changing after 10 years of use for example a lot of times to change the battery on a used electric vehicle costs more than the car is even worth. Plus at the moment we don't have the infrastructure to support electric an entire nation of electric vehicles
I think the biggest issues with hydrogen is the fuel itself. It's very flammable and hard to make 'clean'. Additionally, I think burning hydrogen still produces NOx, which is one of the worst greenhouse gasses. Thanks for the comment.
Great for you. But for me Ill stick to gas for now. No cord for me. no car shuffle to get to a charger my elec bill highest in nation, plus can have rolling blackouts to save electricity.reality life in ca.
Hang on Eric and push to the future because EV is the way. I bought a lame old 2013 EV for around town driving this spring. After 16k miles I am never driving a combustion vehicle again once I replace my current ones. I have been a gear-head and have Hot-Rodded vehicles from S-10 to Subaru STi. EV's will stay. LiFePO4 and commodity volume will solve most of the problems.
The energy density of gasoline is 33 kilowatt hours of energy per gallon & weighs 7 pounds, so 21 pounds of gasoline = 100 kWh energy. An average EV battery holds about 100 kWh of energy & weighs about 1200 pounds. EV is much more efficient but still you've got to lug around a 1200 pound battery which is not efficient. EV's are heavy because of the batteries, the bigger the battery the heavier the car. Tesla big rig is something 20000 pounds of battery alone. Crazy
@@ethimself5064 He's saying there are different types of EVs that have different battery capacities and configurations. Yes it's gonna be expensive but it's gonna vary.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm a level 3 EV tech in Norway, and batteries catching on fire by themselves is extremely rare. Even in collisions it's quite rare.
You can't put out a battery fire, but you can control it by cooling it (with water).
We replace single modules every day. When you replace them you have to balance the voltage to match the old modules. Then you won't overload any of them.
Thank you! I was very confused as to why a supposed expert on EVs would claim that it isn't possible to replace only a single module with a new one. That is why battery balancing procedures exist! Battery packs are repaired all the time that way with no ill effects. If this Dirk guy is the best the US has to offer, well, Eric is definitely correct that we are wayyy behind Europe.
@@applehuggerIt can be true for some batteries that module swapping is not a permanent fix. It is entirely dependent on battery and BMS architecture.
On classic Tesla batrery packs when doing module swaps it is bound to happen where the swapped modules will always drift at a different rate and after a couple of years the BMS can no longer keep up with the balancing of the swapped module. Then you get the main BMS saying no as the cells are too far away from each other and you are back to square one.
Hence the only long lasting solutions are to cut fuses from the individual cells for all modules if you have one bad cell OR drill out the one bad cell from the module and replace it with a sufficiently cycled same kind of cell. With this method you are not replacing too much of the battery module's capacity for the BMS to not be able to balance the module in the future.
It has a BMS for that are you doing Toyota Prius, the days for balancing are gone, the module will do that
Sure you can put them out but it takes 10x the amount of water. They're a nightmare.
it feels like your energy is in a better place now.
I recall your early videos and you weren't always in a great place but persevered.
I hope for your continued growth, joy, and success in life.
Thanks, Eric. It's great to hear this from you. So many of us EV owners can't talk to 'car guys' or mechanics without stirring up some negative feelings one way or another. I've owned loud and fast cars that run on leaded 100 and E85 for years. I've printed a lot of speeding tickets. I probably still have a larger left leg from all the clutch work. I've turned wrenches, bled, and done some sketchy shit on cars. Lots of rubber left in the burnout box, lots of money left on the dyno. I get it. I consider myself a 'car guy'. But I lose that when talking to other 'car guys'.
I'm on my second EV. I didn't get into one for green reasons, to make a 'statement', or anything like that. I got into it because when gas is $5/gallon, (my first) EV cost as much to drive as a gas car getting 120 MPG. Cheeeap. My parking spot is also my gas station. I plug it into my dryer outlet when I want to charge quick or just a 120V outlet when I just need to make up for the commute. My second EV is a Kia. And guess what, it hauls ass. With a full charge, this thing runs a low to mid 11 sec quarter mile around 120. 60 MPH comes in just over 3 seconds and it'll top out around 160. Right from the factory. And it only cost about as much as a fully spec'd out Rav4. The battery will take up to 200,000 watts of 800V power to charge from 20-80% in about 15 minutes on a road trip. It has AWD. I love it. It lacks soul, yes. And I do miss rowing through the gears. It's a heavy pig in the corners. But man, it still puts a hell of a smile on my face.
You're dead on with following the money. MECHANICS. Look, nobody other than stealerships wants to touch these things. They're scared shitless of them. They still have ball joints, bearings, steering racks, A/C condensers, brakes, and 12V electrical systems. In many ways these things are the same cars you wrench on all day long. They're also wicked expensive to work on, as Eric pointed out. But if you can undercut the dealership on labor, which most independent shops do normally, you will have customers lined up. If you can source refurb or used parts, you're getting your customers a better deal than they usually get. Just put a sign out front saying you work on EVs and your phone will ring. I miss my local independent. I wish they would work on my car. But I know when this lease is up I'm not going to buy it because I'll be stuck taking it to the dealership for the inevitable maintenance.
Also, if you sell tires, they print money. EVs are heavy as all hell, have gobs of torque, and take expensive tires. My summer tire set is $1,600 at the discount shop. I don't know what their margins are, but you fine folks need to get a piece of that action. Seriously. Take our money.
Great comment and true on all points. I miss the independent shop I trusted my VW to and am not looking forward to relying on Volvo for my maintenance. There is so much that can be done outside of the battery and electric motors and I feel shops are really missing out on this.
Thank you VERY much for that comment and insight.
One of the fire suppression methods currently being researched that I really like involves setting an industry standard interface for a fire suppression device that would hook to a saline tank carried by firefighters. It takes a ludicrous amount of saline to begin suppressing a battery fire, and really you're not suppressing the fire so much as forcing a controlled rapid release of remaining energy within the battery's chemistry, but the fact that there's talk of an industry-wide standard is encouraging!
I am a mechanic. I work on a lot of stuff, from industrial deisle to some of the new GDI cars. I love and welcome the electric age of cars, and i do feel they may be the answer, but we have at least 50 years to perfect the tech, like we did with the internal combustion engines. Love the channel Eric, been a fan for years, and I'm glad you're back!
I got ev certified though nissan a while back now and i dont regret it at all, making bank on it and really i find them easier to work on then ice vehicles. I like both btw.
I've worked with battery banks for a long time. The big danger with an open battery pack is the high voltage and high current DC is alway present. You cannot turn off a battery. If you short something in a open pack it will melt it or outright vaporize what ever you shorted. Alway insulated tools, always gloves and no distractions. It is pretty much like working on live electrical panel, something electricians hate doing. Also DC arcs are hard to break 400 volts can pull a 1 foot arc. I'm not afraid to work batteries I just respect the battery and do everything to avoid mistakes.
Yup, always take precautions just like when working on the fuel system on a combustion vehicle.
I learned in the class that some of the contacts used in EVs are sealed with hydrogen to help mitigate that arc you mentioned. When the hydrogen leaks out, that contact, and possibly the entire system, is toast. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 Yes, nitrogen, hydrogen or SF6. Though using hydrogen puzzles me, good thing I don't design contactors.
As always I love your attitude Eric! Tech is tech and cars are cars, period.
Tbh. I really never got or get the general antipathy towards new tech, like EVs. Why do boatloads of people feel the need to choose sides? It doesn't have to be either/or. There aren't any camps; It's all in your head! Intelligent peope adapt. No one will blame you for being an old school petrol head and be inspired by new tech like EVs at the same time. Rest assured. Just regard it as a nice opportunity to learn about new tech, be enlightened and enhance your skill set, hell maybe even make a few extra bucks on the side while doing so ;-)
Rivian has done a good job in the EV market. Tesla is an embarrassment. They tried to come out with “something new” but they had horrible quality control issues that don’t exist on any other vehicle such as the hoods flying off going down the highway.
I think this has caused a lot of negative perception.
As a mechanic, EV’s are a nightmare because the only things left to work on are repetitive, non rewarding jobs, the most likely will always be some sort of electrical fault within the wiring harnesses.
Nobody wants to spend all day doing brakes and ball joints, it’s like living in hell.
Glad to see you back…
I like the “Wizard Vibe”
My first ever EV repair was a battery on a 2017 Prius C. 4 hours later i made $350 for that job. There is good coin in it and most community colleges should be updating there curricululms for EV's, i know mine did. It was very helpful and has been beneficial in my time as a technician
Finally, a level-headed take. I do tires primarily on EVs and it's a wonderful business to be in right now.
You're also getting a lot of EV-owning subscribers to finally comment and engage with this video. :-)
My great grandfather owned a hardware store and was Fire Chief in Weston Mass. When gasoline became available in the early 1900's it was stored in cans in the creek... Glad you are back... Stay safe, Tim in Texas
Great video. I live in Central Ohio and have driven EVs for the past 8 years. My first one was a Ford Focus Electric and it served me well. However, the one major issue with that car was the coolant hoses that ran through the battery pack would eventually leak. This never caused a fire, but it did put the EV system into fail safe mode and the car would basically brick.
I asked around to numerous shops to see if I could get someone to open up the HV battery and check/reinforce the coolant hoses. Literally nobody would touch the car. The dealer would replace the battery if it failed (for $$$$) but wouldn't otherwise work on it.
It's understandable that shops were hesitant, since there is clear danger if you don't know what you're doing. But they were also basically saying no to earning more revenue because they didn't have the time or motivation to learn a new skill.
EVs are a HUGE opportunity for younger folks who aren't afraid to learn new things or set in their ways about how things "should" be.
The only thing you would learn if you added EV’s to your resume is electrical diagnosis on interior wiring.
Batteries, inverters, three-phase motors, they have all been around a long time.
I’m level 2 certified on EV’s in the US there actually is a level 3 here as well and it’s for working on live circuits IE if the battery contact switch gets arc welded together those are the guys who can disconnect it. There are very few of those in the US I’m currently working with Freightliner to obtain mine. I’m a diesel tech by trade but the company I service has been acquiring a few EV tractors so will be nice to have. After having attended all these classes though I can attest that they are very safe to own and operate.
Impedence and load characteristic matching when replacing battery cells is also a skill that has application in certain naval settings.
Your wisdom and temperament cause me to listen more and learn a lot. Thank you.
A cheap Chinese vape pen battery that my son had caught our house on fire 🔥. I can attest to thier danger first hand...
Gotta keep up with the times. Remember when there were 8 track repairmen? Yeah not needed anymore. Opportunities are out there!
By coincidence, just yesterday I saw the best video that I've ever seen on the problem with ev's. It's titled: "The unpopular truth about electric vehicles", uploaded by Hillsdale college. Definitely worth a watch.
Eric The Beard Guy! Thank you for this great intro/overview on EV servicing. Great to see you back in frame. Cheers!
I recently started an independent EV repair shop in Portland Oregon called WattWorks (and worked at a shop in the San Diego area for about 7 years before moving back up here). I work on a little bit of everything from very common cars like the Nissan LEAF, and the various Tesla models, to low volume "compliance cars" like Smarts and Fiat 500es. Though my specialties tend to lie in the Tesla powered cars (including the Toyota RAV4 EV and Mercedes B-Class ED, both built under partnerships with Tesla).
In my time at QC Charge in San Diego, we were one of the earliest pioneers in rebuilding the Tesla "Large Drive Unit", which is prone to a few different failure modes, though the biggest one these days is coolant intrusion through leaking rotor seals. That remains one of my big specialties at my new shop, but besides that, I also do all sort of other HV system and powertrain related repairs, including repairs to the battery packs.
By the way, my daily driver is a 9 year old Tesla Model S with over 465k miles and counting!
You subscribe to EVClinic? Do you do module swaps in classic Teslas?
I would love to visit you and your shop someday.
@@rkan2 Module swaps are not generally considered to be a "long term viable repair" on Teslas, mainly because the battery management system (BMS) is very sensitive to even the slightest differences in capacity. Even Tesla themselves stopped doing module swapping on their in house remanufactured packs a couple years ago, because they typically didn't last more than 2 years before falling out of balance. Some other EVs are a lot less sensitive to these issues, or have a BMS that can perform heavier balancing to keep things in check.
All that said, particularly on the "classic" Tesla models, a lot of the battery related issues aren't caused by cell failures, but rather moisture intrusion into the battery pack, which can lead to increased humidity and condensation, which creates corrosion in certain areas. On V1.5 packs, this condensation has a tendency to collect on a certain point on the battery monitoring broads on each module, which tends to rot out two of the surface mount capacitors (C26 and C27), which leads to incorrect voltage readings. Additionally, degraded HV isolation can be another issue associated with moisture intrusion. Generally speaking, these issues are usually fixable, as long as there isn't corrosion on the cells themselves.
On V2 and up packs, the corrosion issues with the BMS electronics was largely fixed due to an updated design, and they tend to be better sealed, but they can still suffer from moisture intrusion as well. However, there have been a number of cases of separated wire bonds (they connect to the BMS for cell voltage measurements and balancing), which usually seems to coincide with vehicles that have been involved in accidents, but usually not until months or even a year later.
@@AlexEVRepair Yeah, I am aware, hence you would've been saved from writing if you noted EVClinic ;)
Very interesting, thanks Eric 🙂
Yep been into them for years. Been to many classes on EV's. Professor John Kelly at Weber university does a great job explaining Ev's on his channel. Just love the technology.
👀
You still a full time mechanic?
@@TheRealEricO looky lou!
If you have an ev battery module that is slightly different than the rest, sometimes you can slowly drain all cells down and recharge to level it out. It takes days to do it properly, but it has worked for me.
HOLY SHIT. ETC!
Glad to see you are well, I love your content
I feel the same way with EV, and it's an exciting time to live to have innovation in the car industry.
but no support for cars, or lack there of.
The internet is full of used Tesla 18650 batteries from old modules, sold in bulk. The only thing I've heard of people using them for (big quantities) is DIY solar systems. After purchase, people test and restore the cells, with many getting scrapped. I'm sure there are people using them for other things too.
3:46 You are talking about 18650 battery cells, electronic cigarettes use them, laptops use them, power tools use them, exit lights use them, electric cars use them and the list goes on and on. A really versatile battery cell. Maybe I didn't start to claim that the batteries of electric cigarettes are particularly fire-sensitive and at the same time praise the batteries of power tools or electric cars because they both use the same type. :D
Saves the manufacturer time, and gives technicians more and more headaches. Gotta love it. Can’t wait till nobody remembers how to drive a manual or even build an ICE.
I suspect in the future people will even forget how to wire inverters as they become more and more common.
Gonna be straight electrical diagnosis and garbage maintenance items.
People don’t even want to pay a few hundred for a new timing chain so i doubt they can afford a new inverter or battery pack.
Wait till they figure out about vehicles shutting off for the police and the built in trackers..
There's a good bit of money to be made, but I'm sure insurance companies will be asking about if you service EV's and adjusting your rates accordingly. Just like if they ask on your homeowner's if you have a dog and what breed it is. I'm glad you are bringing up this topic and discussing it but for me I'm not willing to risk my shop and tools, everything I've worked for over decades, to have it all burn because Musk is too busy trying to be in politics than run a company and its not like he runs a company well either nor is he an engineer in any way shape or form.
For those of you who choose to work on these I'm guessing its going to be a specialty shop just like places that do Euro cars or rotarys. But for those who do EV you will have a completely different way of how the shop is built and set up. There will need to be isolations from other bays and ways to keep the toolboxes further back along with a rapid removal system should a fire occur. These are things the normal repair shop isn't designed for and it presents a danger to the techs who have to pull in an EV next to their toolbox and rack it just like a normal car. It isn't a normal car.
I'll be hanging out with the rest of the dinosaurs helping people who want to keep ICE vehicles in service. If I was a young tech at a dealer I'd go for the EV certs heavy and start a profitable career, but I'm not.
I really appreciate that insight, thank you for taking the time to comment.
Imagine the insurance on a premises that stores those battery units, youd need serious cover.
I can appreciate the fact you are embracing the new technology. Stay Safe my friend! I had a lithium battery in my jump starter get too warm and it woke me up to that issue. But vape pens are more prevalent and getting them wet could be an everyday problem.
9:25 back in the early 90’s This company Tekin. Made there Speed controller for Rc car. That did that except. They called it High frequency regenerating. It’s Tekin 411-p2 to be exact. Kinda reminds me of that.
You don't need much water to put out a battery fire. But you do need a way to deliver that water directly INSIDE the battery housing under enough pressure to overcome any outgassing pressure that may be going on. The fancy way of doing so is using a waterjet lance. The low-tech version is to use a hollow spike and pound it into the battery while running water through it.
You need three things for a fire: fuel, oxidizer and HEAT. Quenching the battery cells by injecting water inside the battery pack removes the heat in a few minutes using about one gallon of water per kWh.
I don't know much about these but I do know that some of the most dramatic explosions happen when elemental lithium or sodium is exposed to water. Presumably the lithium is bonded to something else to make it more stable?
I also thought of something, would liquid nitrogen work? I'm sure that would be expensive, but I was wondering.
@@spelunkerd There is little exposed elemental lithium in a lithium battery. It is either in oxidized form at the cathode, in lithium salt ion form while passing through the electrolyte or embedded in anode graphite.
If you ripped the anode from a charged battery and dunked it in water, you would get a slow reaction since water molecules are too large to reach lithium atoms beyond the graphite's outer surface.
The problem with NMC/NCA batteries is not the lithium. It is the electrolyte and separator's decomposition generating lots of oxydants during thermal runaway, hence the difficulty in snuffing them out through conventional means. You cannot put out a self-oxidizing fire by cutting the air supply when it doesn't need to keep going.
LFP batteries need to get about 20C hotter before that happens and decomposition requires ~4X as much heat, making thermal runaway harder to trigger, harder to sustain and much slower. When LFP packs go thermal, they are far less exciting to watch, looking almost like a regular fire log.
@@ETCG1 Fire trucks already have lots of specialized equipment to deal with the most common fire and rescue situations. Having a 100L dewar flask filled with a cryogenic hazard that needs to get topped up at least once a week due to boil-off and all of the related equipment including personal protection wouldn't be practical.
Nitrogen also displaces oxygen and would pose an asphyxiation hazard for people in the immediate area who don't have an oxygen mask while liquid nitrogen tanks are being dumped into the battery.
The water injection spike on the other hand is just a fire hose attachment. Hang a pair (EV-on-EV action where both batteries go thermal) next to the axes used to drive them in. Can be added to the whole fleet for ~$100 per truck.
@@teardowndan5364- also much better for the consumer who likes to “fill it up” everyday, since charging to 100% daily is an ok practice.
Wow...very interesting. With the inverters being aprox 10K, I can see why new EVs are so expensive. I'm not an EV fan, but realize I will have to give in at some point in the future. Thanks for the video.
Eric, look up a company called Form Energy. They are working on an Iron-Air rust battery that is supposed to have crazy capacity. The technology was researched by Honda back in the 70s. They found the batteries to work, however, they didn't know how to mass produce them.
This is the way it's going whether people like it or not, might as well embrace it. Gas vehicles aren't going to disappear in our lifetime though. It's just another thing they keep us fighting over in the culture war so we don't start a class war.
Jehugarcia has made a decent living from used batteries. On the battery fires the answer might be in finding a way to freeze the battery so the battery would lose its charge
Talked to our local mechanic and he said that, in the case of Teslas, the service centers just do software and electrical/electronics and don't touch mechanicals (tires, brakes, bearings, suspension..etc). And that are the mechanical parts are actually derived from existing parts from Cadillacs. As far as construction goes, they don't find the cars to be well built.
"You're welcome" 😂
Thanks, Eric 😅
My friend purchased Prius transmissions for nothing, disassembled them and sold copper few years back (in Russia). Because nobody needs these transmissions as they are, they don't break. But the copper inside them is a different story.
from what I've heard is fire departments are filling a large dumpster or dump truck with water and dropping in. Other departments are burying the cars in sand when the batteries are in thermal over load.
So good to see these on my notifications!!
Wow! Interesting video, learned something new today!
In most places in EU there are two different types of regulation which affects EV repair work: the vehicle or electrical code / law and employment law.
Thus if you are self employed or privately doing stuff, often sky is the limit and you don't necessarily need any qualifications. However if you are employed, it is generally the employer's responsibility to make sure you are qualified to do the work, or otherwise they can be held liable.
Obviously you'll still be liable if you do something wrong outside employment.
Very thought provoking! Another topic to cover would be pros and cons of EV vs Hybrid vehicles.
I’ve already started working on EV’s. Did you know that all of Tesla’s service manuals are online and available at no charge? Also you can buy 1 day or 1 month subscriptions to Tesla Toolbox 3? I’ve starting with simple things like replacing the Pyro fuses. You can charge a good rate and still make money over the dealership rate. If you’re a tech with some EE experience it’s pretty easy stuff. You just need to understand how to work around voltages that can be deadly. Some might need a cert.
Also Eric those individual cells are called 18650 batteries. They are mass produced and ubiquitous among industry.
I work with fire crews and EV fires are a nightmare. Foam doesnt work because you simply can't get it inside the pack, and if you cant coat the cells foam is useless. Water only works because it cools everything enough to prevent flaming combustion but the moment you let up with the water, the fire will start back up again if all the energy hasnt been exhausted. They can re-ignite literally days later.
If you can somehow submerge the battery for a period of time, that can work. But thats difficult to do with a whole car.
The problem of it re-igniting is caused by the pack not being full discharged. As long as there it still power in the pack there is chance of the now damaged pack shorting and starting a new thermal runaway.
I was wondering if liquid nitrogen could be used.
@@ETCG1 It should have the same effect of freezing the cells and giving you a few minutes to move it and drop it in a dunk tank. It only works if you have direct access to the cells. Trying to instantly freeze a whole pack is not practical.
@@ETCG1 Probably but it has the same basic issue - the fire is only suppressed while the cells are cooled. Once you run out of liquid nitrogen and they heat back up, combustion will resume. Plus with the added complication of storing and transporting liquid nitrogen.
That might be something to consider for like, a permanent fire suppression system built into a specialty structure.
Hi Eric, long term watcher from Vancouver BC 🇨🇦. Congrats to you for being open minded to explore the EV industry and the potential. My wife drives a Tesla and I love my ice engine cars so have real life experience and knowledge of both. Fires from EV's are extremely rare and the stats show that. The EV disruption is happening, and one can stick their head in the sand and be an EV hater or be mature enough to learn new innovations and appreciate the engineering technology. Facts; The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in 2023. YTD in 2024, its No 2 right behind the Toyota Rav and could be No 1 again.
All great points, but I don't think EV's are the way to "save" our future. Or to put a finer point on it, I don't think EVs are the solution to our environmental problems ATM. In fact, they may be making them worse. However, I do think there are places were EV is the best solution to the overall human transportation problem. Thanks for the comment.
@ Agree Eric, and I too don't see EV's as as solution to environment problems. However they do help and see them as a co-existing with other options.
@@bjm23vancity92- and the methods used to charge them are improving, by using methods which don’t pull stuff out of the ground (oil, natural gas, coal).
In places like Norway and many other countries with almost limitless hydropower or other countries similarly with solar EVs make a whole lot of sense. In places like Poland where most of the grid is based on fossil fuels you only get one of the biggest benefits of EVs which is no local pollution from an ICE.
Brake dust, tires. Still create local pollution and a lot at that. Look at studies of particulate. Brake dust is a huge contributor. Ev’s are heavy.
BMW replaced the motor electronics and motor on my i3. It cost $20k..... By comparison, when Jag replaced the engine in my F-Pace (yeah, don't ask), it was $50k.... Speaking of fires, about a month ago, a container-size battery module caught fire when the truck rolled over near the port of LA. They closed the freeway for 24 hours before it was out..... There are a bunch of YT videos about - look for San Pedro battery fire
The guy I mentioned in the video, Dirk Fuchs, was who they called to help investigate that fire.
"level 3" tech here too 😊
For module replacement - I know the guys in Ukraine do that. They buy some failed batteries for spare, try to revive client cars (there's a lot of points of failure in EV systems), and if the battery doesn't store the charge, replace failed banks with spare ones.
Surely, cheap labor, different market. Not sure if that could work for the US.
Thanks for the knowledge.
Fantastic information. Merry Christmas
I think that is a neat idea Eric.
Thank you sir !!!
Honda swaps are getting to the point where there are kits for electric motors, one of my gripes is making it easier to AWD swap without cutting the crap out of the thing, if electric could make this easier I'm interested. Also some of the engine bays look soooooo clean 👌 Just have to come up with some way to project a faux VTEC sound!! 😆🤣🙃
Your comment about the shoebox in a shoe store got me thinking, maybe similar to how some buildings have an external standpipe that first responders can hook a pumper up to and send water through the building sprinkler system, an EV battery pack could have a similar port that could be used to drench the modules from the inside, using water much more efficiently.
Or - to create a vacuum so the fire inside the battery has no oxygen?
Battery fires don't need O2 to burn.
My town just bought three special blankets/bags to prevent the smoke from getting everywhere. Evidently the smoke from an EV fire is toxic.
Anytime you burn a car, any car, it's toxic. Think of all the plastic, rubber, and other junk that shouldn't be burned. thanks for the comment.
Very interesting Eric I enjoy watching your videos watching from South Africa
You mentioned the vape batteries. I use them with a TP4056 battery management board to power very low load items like led headlamps that use button batteries, or television remotes.
They recharge nicely for many cycles when they're taken care of.
But I don't charge them when I'm not around, for sure.
Even more for finding a better way to put their fire out.
If you're into engineering you should love Tesla!
Love the vehicle, or the fact that it's an American vehicle, not so fond of the man. ruclips.net/video/KKkHFXmEmic/видео.html
I had an Icecream cake.
Replacing the full pack is wasteful, but from the manufacture POV, it is safer and all boxes are ticked.
From a users POV, getting a module replaced is better some times it is just a faulty connection, or it could be just a cell, many have been fixed and still moving today.
EVs are going to need all kinds of work from suspension, tires, hvac to more complicated electronic fixes. Society will evolve with all this knowledge.
Could you do a vid of your tools boxs n tools???
Volts jolt, AMPs kill.
Great info. Thanks.
Eric, good info thanks
LG Chem has battery module manufacturing in Chna.
One of the 2 factories there began to run out of the materials to make the insulation placed between the anode and cathode within the individual cells.
What was the typical solution?
For an entire month, they used less insulation!
Of course, this caused battery pack fires.
That quality control ethic caused a billion-dollar recall of all EVs with these cells in the battery packs.
If your in the market for an EV, do your research!
Question everything.
I have a 2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV.
Like I said in the video, I'm an engineering nerd. I also love learning about engineering failures. Guess what? Most of those failures were the result of design changes made by non engineers to save cost. Thanks for the comment.
Some of those videos where they dismantle a tesla, those modules are foam-cemented into a unified battery body, and they run this coolant lines throughout the pack between the columns - I don't think those can be replaced since it's all glued together.
Are you thinking of doing electric conversion therapy for some ICE vehicles?
Yes, some cases are glued together and are not meant to be 'serviceable', but if it was put together, it can come apart with some persuasion.
I'm open to experiment. Like I said in the video, I've always been an engineering nerd at heart. I just fixed cars because it seemed like the best way to apply that curiosity without attending a 4 year college.
This is true of newer Teslas; older S,X, and Roadster packs can be serviced.
@@jamesengland7461 Yep, and Nissan Leaf battery packs are also great to start out with if you want to delve into module replacement.
I remember the first time I saw a house fire, that involved a car. The tires go boom. Wonder what an EV would have done.
You would have gone home, gone to sleep, woke up the next day, and it would likely still be burning.
A problem with buying broken/salvage EVs is if the high voltage charging electronics are not working and the high voltage battery is dead, then it is probably a really heavy vehicle to move around. Lucky to have the low rolling resistance tires.
Battery cells are actually much larger than AA. Most common types are 2170 which means 21mm diameter and 70mm length. Tesla is experimenting with 4680 cells now. Smaller the battery higher the charge discharge rate u can achieve. Things get much more complicated with the chemistry and ratio of different metals but that is for battery engineers to determine based on use case
Yes, and so are the cells in power tools, but it's a good analog that many people are familiar with, which is why I used it. Thanks for the comment.
Great video-you really got me thinking! I completely agree that certification should be mandatory for anyone working on EVs, given the significant role electrical engineering plays in their design and maintenance.
What are your thoughts on the cost of retooling for independent repair shops to service EVs? With the required investments in training, specialized tools, diagnostic computers, proprietary software, insurance, and more, it seems like the barrier to entry is becoming incredibly steep. Even with ICE vehicles, the complexity has skyrocketed, making it increasingly challenging for smaller shops to stay competitive. Some predict that many independent shops could be priced out of the market within the next decade.
Reselling components might become a viable path for independent businesses, whether for ICE or EVs, but that shifts the focus from service to parts sales-essentially turning mechanics into parts distributors.
A big shoutout to Professor Kelly for his sobering insights into the facilities, tooling, and expertise needed to service EVs effectively. For anyone interested in detailed reverse engineering and industry perspectives, Monro Live is another fantastic resource worth checking out.
Excellent question that I somewhat explored in this video. ruclips.net/video/8z2Euhw_gAo/видео.html
Now that it's been a few years and I know more about EVs, I'm not really sure the direction that things will take. Thanks for the comment.
Interesting and informed perspective. It also seems to me a huge potential market would be portable EV test equipment. How will I know that junkyard inverter is still good before I pull it? And those battery modules, How can I tell without a multimeter and a spec sheet for each brand? Sounds to me like a wide-open market for any DIY Heathkit fans!
The part about inverters that I forgot to mention is that they use 6 transistors to operate. You could also just replace the transistors for about $20. 🤔
And this is the better way 😮
Fire fighters have experimented with fire blanks to smother the fire
Great video
Regarding "killing voltage" - I guess that's 50 dc and 120 ac. I used to know that back in the day, but maybe I'm wrong.
I think so , or maybe a little more dc. That's why the Cybertruck has a 48V chassis wiring system; it's the upper limit on safety.
It is not strictly about voltage regardless.
It is the current flowing through the body that will stop the heart, It depends on the resistance of the body contact point as to how much current flows through it at the time. It is for this reason to typical residual current devices are set at 30mA and must disconnect in less than 40 milliseconds when tested (@5X rated) as 30mA is considered survivable.
Voltage is not a parameter in setting the safety limit, current in mA is.
The higher the voltage contacted the easier the current will flow given the same body resistance which is why the risk increases as voltage rises.
No two people will have the same resistance.
The latest "safety" cut off fitted for EV batteries (now around 800V) disconnect in a few seconds and are present to protect the vehicle electrical/electronic components in the first instance, not human life as the above criteria is not met therefore the "safety" part refers to the vehicle per design.
Charging cells in series requires individual cell balancing to prevent overcharging of cells with a high internal resistance to prevent such a cell breaking down and becoming unstable and leading to a potential thermal runaway situation.
800V is not considered safe or acceptable for domestic dwellings that have little comparable risk of mechanical damage impact.
These are some things to consider and evaluate along with a personal individual attitude to risk.
Don't accept something is "safe" just because someone says it is.
@Ifitwerks I think the reason why it's called "safe" is because a human is able to drop off the wires. When the voltage is higher people are unable to detach themselves and require external help.
Maybe I'm wrong?
@@sergeymatpoc I think you are referring to DC Voltage and AC Voltage as DC Voltage presents the greatest danger of being unable to break contact for the reason you mentioned, the word safe has no place with any electrical contact, hope this helps.
Eric I sore on Midwest truck post there is a trayer that a ev goes in side it and gets water in it to contane the fire
Other income opportunities are tires and suspensions, which apparently have higher wear rates on EVs than on similarly-sized ICE vehicles due to battery weights and torque loads.
Brakes - in northern climates - need perhaps annual to every 2 year maintenance. Not because they wear out, but because they don’t get used as much as on an ICE car, and tend to get bound up.
Only slightly more tire wear, and suspensions should be built for the weight of the cars.
Still makes me want a ICE car.
*Will* you *really* see me later? I mean, I live on the west coast and you don't.
I have my doubts.
But hey, I'll at least see YOU in a later video, so that's nice. 😂
Did he just say EV Curious 😂🤣😂🤣
I always approach vehicles as to their purpose and how well they serve it, then factor in costs. So far my purposes for a work truck have not been met by any EV style truck. Specifically range and time to recharge issues. If that ever gets solved then fantastic, I would evaluate that vehicle for my purpose at that time Best of luck with the new EVenture
My concern is that fuel prices will reach an untenable point where we can no longer afford to drive our ICE vehicles, not that electric vehicles will be our only option. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1Anybody else holding out for the Jetson Model 1
Did you happen to check out the hydrogen powered car at SEMA?
Yes. ruclips.net/video/wA6luTe9bjw/видео.html
@ETCG1 sorry I did not realize I missed that
not gonna lie, I still prefer when 8+ pistons motivates a vehicle to go down the road :D
Have you even driven an ev? If not, please do
And it's waaaaay cleaner then ev bullshit
@@golfish8589 no, I know the torque is insane, but I need to hear sound from a combustion engine
You can fake the sound. You can't fake the torque and ease of maintenance
@@golfish8589 hahaha then it's not real lol, we normal people prefer reality...torque? Hahahha still less then a real car
Welcome back
yes I’m all in for EV’s thanks Eric appreciate it 😊
The biggest hurdle to overcome in the EV repair game is the massive depreciation of EVs. There comes a point where they’re not worth fixing, and that point comes much sooner than it would in an ICE vehicle.
ICE vehicle main components are getting REALLY expensive to repair as well. Transmission rebuild 5k, reman engine 10k.
I think the depreciation comes from the repair cost. If you were able to repair them cheaply and resell them, you could make serious bank.
@3:10: An inverter or a rectifier?
An inverter, it does both conversions. I believe a rectifier just works in one direction, AC to DC. @.58 you're looking at a bridge rectifier that we made in class.
We all need to remember that we can't assume the same things are true for regular batteries [12v car batteries or consumer electronic lithium batteries] and electric motors. and the batteries and motors in electric cars. Your starter is usually hung off the low side of the engine block. with no seal on the shaft or the wiring, easily immersed in water. Still reliable. Your car battery is usually unmanaged, exposed to the heat of the engine bay, or under a fender, immersed in water at times [Dodge Journey et al 😂 ], doesn't last the 5-7 years promised, am I right? EV motors are far more sophisticated, battery packs are very well sealed, armored, and protected by structural cases, and their charging an use are very well protected by a myriad of electronics and these cool explosive fuses!🎉 ! to protect them too. and because of this they last far longer.
Pound per pound, gas is much more energy dense than batteries.
And about 70% of that is lost to heat during the combustion process. EVs are more energy efficient than ICE vehicles. Sorry. Doesn't mean I like them better BTW.
Well my thoughts are this, if you want to make a fortune, invest in the companies that make gaurd rails, all the guard rails in every country need to be either reinforced, or replaced, cause of the shear weight of an ev, cause they go right through today's guard rail......so they need to be fixed, or replace with stronger devices.
I call BS on that. The most popular vehicle sold in America is the F150, which weights about as much, if not more than an EV. I like the way you think though. Thanks for the comment.
@ETCG1 I agree... But it's what Washington is talking about to usher in all the evs coming.... They are already setting aside the money it's going to take, and you know what that means, more taxes.
I think a lot of the hate towards EVs is a byproduct of how awful new cars in general are becoming. With all the spying on you, heated seat subscriptions, less durability, while the price tag goes up and up. Not to mention the "you'll own nothing and be happy" dystopia of OBD3 if it comes to fruition.
Because of all this coupled with the real limitations of EVs currently a lot of people like myself would rather just keep our old shitboxes going forever. But there's genuine fear that one day they might not allowed on the road. I'm not even against converting my truck to electric when the technology gets better. It's not EVs I'm against, its the feeling of ownership diminishing as manufactures lock you out of your own car more and more. Your car now becoming a vector to spy on you and use that data against you. Change isn't bad inherently but I have yet to see a good argument for why these changes I mention taking place are a good thing
I like the link you made between EVs and new cars. I think that might just be spot on. However, I don't think they will take ICE vehicles away from us, I think we'll be able to keep them as long as we want but, I think fuel prices will reach a point where owning an ICE vehicle is just too expensive. Thanks for the comment.
@@ETCG1 I don't think ICE cars being banned is very likely. It's just I'm from California and if anybody were to do it, it would be California. There's also zero emission zones popping up around the world and more will pop up over time. These zones prohibit the use of ICE vehicles within them. I don't think its likely to happen in the US and even if it did it would likely be in a few cities. But I don't think its entirely off the table for carb states.
I'm personally more on the side of hydrogen when it comes to alternative fuels since a gasoline engine can potentially be converted into a hydrogen engine. The issue is cost of making the fuel and storing it in a cool environment but if they were able to find a way to use Ocean water to make hydrogen and found better ways of storing it and transporting it to hydrogen gas stations and the cost came down to gasoline prices. That would be the way to go in my opinion.
The problem that I have with electric vehicles is that The batteries use a lot of rare Earth materials are very harmful to the environment when it comes to mining and converting those materials into batteries and the batteries don't have that long of a lifespan, degrade over time, and when it does require changing after 10 years of use for example a lot of times to change the battery on a used electric vehicle costs more than the car is even worth. Plus at the moment we don't have the infrastructure to support electric an entire nation of electric vehicles
I think the biggest issues with hydrogen is the fuel itself. It's very flammable and hard to make 'clean'. Additionally, I think burning hydrogen still produces NOx, which is one of the worst greenhouse gasses. Thanks for the comment.
Great for you. But for me Ill stick to gas for now. No cord for me. no car shuffle to get to a charger my elec bill highest in nation, plus can have rolling blackouts to save electricity.reality life in ca.
Well then California is your real problem.
Don't think Eric said he is switching to EVs.
Hang on Eric and push to the future because EV is the way. I bought a lame old 2013 EV for around town driving this spring. After 16k miles I am never driving a combustion vehicle again once I replace my current ones. I have been a gear-head and have Hot-Rodded vehicles from S-10 to Subaru STi. EV's will stay. LiFePO4 and commodity volume will solve most of the problems.
The energy density of gasoline is 33 kilowatt hours of energy per gallon & weighs 7 pounds, so 21 pounds of gasoline = 100 kWh energy.
An average EV battery holds about 100 kWh of energy & weighs about 1200 pounds. EV is much more efficient but still you've got to lug around a 1200 pound battery which is not efficient. EV's are heavy because of the batteries, the bigger the battery the heavier the car. Tesla big rig is something 20000 pounds of battery alone. Crazy
The person that invents the lightweight battery is the next Rockefeller.
EV battery replacement in Canada is $16,000 + CAN off of warranty
You can't logically make that statement considering the wide variety of EVs and battery packs out there
@@jamesengland7461 Sure can in Canadian Fullers
@@ethimself5064 He's saying there are different types of EVs that have different battery capacities and configurations. Yes it's gonna be expensive but it's gonna vary.
@@dmdx86 well I saw a 5 year old Hyundai just pf of warranty and the battery was $16,000 + installation.
Was all over the news up here
have you seen uncle tony's vids on EVs?