I got a lot out of this 5 minute video. This was great. I've always been especially attracted towards music that knows how to play with that fine line, almost stepping into the unsightly before taking a step back to comfort. Many of those songs create seemingly very personal experiences. Just sticking with the pretty tones, while possibly very beautiful, can often feel very unbudging and less lenient listening experiences. They might seem there's not much to add up, and interpretation doesn't wary as much between different ears. I'm heavily generalizing, of course. There's no iron rule for making great music, and there are countless fully tonal songs that makes you think.
OrangeVision totally on the same page. I love music that plays heavily with dissonance, complex rhythms etc that are difficult to grasp onto at first, and just enough moments of more easily understood patterns to bring you back to peace, and then again tearing it up with crazy shit. Math rock is a great example. Or even like dissonant ass hardcore music sometimes does this.
Fascinating! I think the ear can eventually get used to atonal sounds and ultimately find beauty in them. The first time I heard Strauss's 'Elektra' and Berg's 'Wozzeck,' I thought, "what the hell?!" Once I got used to the sounds, I thought they're among the most beautiful pieces I've ever heard.
Life and religion (sorta) explained via music, awesome and interesting! I don't know whether there's truly is order or just chaos in which we've found order for our sanity's sake, but I think like you said Id like to believe we need an equal balance of both which is the basis of certain religions huh
I'd like to see a "Does Equal Temperament Go Against Nature?" follow-up. I found it interesting that the time was taken to explain the overtone series but not the fact that equal temperament (which is what everyone tunes to these days) doesn't produce a single triad that is in tune. I agree that our ears do prefer simple ratios, but with the exception of the octave and fifth, we don't actually get them on the piano!
IMO, atonality is not against the nature because if atonality simply means dissonance, atonal realms are as orderly as tonal realms. As its indirect proof, it is by controlling atonal realms with the assist of my computer that I created this harmony-based twelve tone row, that is, 0,3,5,2,7,10,9,4,1,11,6,8. Here is my youtube video about how this sounds. ruclips.net/video/hyfYaqx9NZ0/видео.html I am pretty sure that this melody/harmonic progression sounds very consonant and supposing that atonality is chaotic, how can I create that tone row out of chaos? What I mean here is that the definition of atonality from a perspective of western music theory is wrong.
Ok, a pure fifth is 3/2. But, if the tuning is very slightly off, the numerical relationship becomes immensely complex. Yet we almost don’t even notice. On a piano, no interval is exactly 3/2, but slightly smaller. We still use it for playing tonal music compostions, and accept them even though the fractions are not simple at all. There must be something else going on than just the notion of «simple fractions».
You are right that tempered tuning does not have perfect mathematical relationships. However, the overtone series is based on the fundamental laws of physics, and the frequencies of the overtones are mathematically related to the frequency of the fundamental tone. This is true of most musical instruments such as French horn and flute.
it's an interesting question and I think it's a mix of both. But I'd say that nature is more "chaotic" to us humans. Of course there is an organization (or at least, what we think that is "organization") but this can't be always seen very clearly, because we're most used to human organization. "Organization" is much more obvious to us, because we feel much more comfortable in it. When you hear the sound of nature, it's atonal, it's not "tonal"/organized. If you take Olivier Messian, he tried to imitate the birds, and it's one of the most remarquable atonal pieces that you can find. When you see nature, for example grass or trees, it's "chaotic" to us because it's growing and full of "bad herbs". Human gardens are organized, like the royal gardens in France or England; but they're not natural at all. They're the fruit of human intervention, and personnally, that's one of the reasons why I don't like them = they cannot be what they would normally be without humans. I'd say that atonal music IS nature, and in the same time tonal music is like humans trying to control their space. But maybe at a final point, it's a little of both. Atonal music IS both natural and unnatural. Natural because it's much closer to the real natural sounds, and unnatural because human music is human. We can get as closer as we want from nature, but we will only imitate it.
These are just my thoughts: I personally incline more toward the Order philosophy. I don’t subscribe to chaos although I acknowledge its existence in certain aspects. But in life and consciousness .. it’s purely Order in my opinion. I’ve always interpreted a major scale (and the relative minor) as a rainbow 🌈 There are 7 colors .. just like in a major scale.. with the 8th being the same as 1 but an octave higher. I feel safe to say the majority of the people in the world find the colors of the rainbow visually pleasant. For this reason I feel just as safe to say the vast majority of people find diatonic music more pleasant than non-diatonic because the structure is closely bounded within the « rainbow ». I believe there might be a connection . A few licks here and there outside the « rainbow » are ok as long as they dont completely muddy it up .. like in atonal music.. which I can’t stand lol And so far from what it seems, the majority of people can’t either lol
One thing not spoken about is the nature of language. Music(art) is a language. One that has a vocabulary and is expressive. Even when speaking of chaos -that is a human concept in language,
Nature is what happens when the laws of science interact when humans don’t intervene. It simply doesn’t care weather music fallows one set of arbitrary man-made principles or another. Weather something is “orderly” or not is just a matter of human perception. Just play/compose/listen to what you like!
Atonality is either a constructed ordered system following strict arbitrary rules or just well intended chaos. Either way it will never be truly popular however clever the composer is because it is too diverse a system to become widely comprehensible to the general listener. At least tonal music has the saving grace of the harmonic series and the natural human instinct for rhythm. The perfect 5th is actually a 3/2 ratio by the way.
LOL this channel is always simply lying about everything. The harmonic series doesn't even correspond to the piano's keys! The 7th harmonic, which is the 4th most important interval in the series can't even be represented on a 12 tone piano! You can't ''play'' the harmonic series on a piano and just lie about what the tones are. Tonal music isn't ''natural'', it's just a cultural value that western music has made the norm, pretty much none of the other historical cultures music can be fairly represented by 12 tone equal temperament. Tonal music is simply a logical structure that communicates development of sound very well, 12 tone music does that too but usually has more mathematical dissonances because it's a more complex system. A lot of contemporary microtonal art music matches the harmonic series way better than any of them, 7-limit and 11-limit music are the most common but I think some systems such as the 205tet of the tonal plexus has gone up all the way to the 23rd harmonic!
Why are you equating the 12 tone equal temperament with tonality? Also, I don't know why people keep saying that key centres (tonality) is a western concept, functional harmony is a western concept, but key centres exist in non-western music Here's a Syriac Christmas hymn for example that has a key centre of C, the major third (E) is tuned lower than the 12 TET, but it still has a tonal centre ruclips.net/video/omr-_zJtxVU/видео.html Here's another example from the Syriac tradition that has a key centre of A, again it's not in 12 TET, the minor sixth (F) sounds a bit lower than the minor sixth equivalent in 12 TET, but it still has a tonal centre ruclips.net/video/-6tOmVcKS4s/видео.html I know your post is from 2 years ago, but I just want to know what having a discussion about this topic is like. Also, yes, the maker of this video didn't accurately talk about the harmonic series, but the harmonic series is key to understanding what makes a consonance (resolution) and a dissonance (tension).
None of those notes you played except the octaves and the fifths are overtones. Your playing on an equal tempered piano which is 'against nature' so you can't ask the question if atonal music goes against nature because it doesn't make any sense.
![Evolving Music into Atonality | Daniel Barenboim - Deconstructed [subtitulado]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VCODCJ3dERs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Evolving Music into Atonality | Daniel Barenboim - Deconstructed [subtitulado]](/img/tr.png)
I came here to know more about Atonality, but I think I found some answers to my life. Thank you.
I got a lot out of this 5 minute video. This was great.
I've always been especially attracted towards music that knows how to play with that fine line, almost stepping into the unsightly before taking a step back to comfort. Many of those songs create seemingly very personal experiences. Just sticking with the pretty tones, while possibly very beautiful, can often feel very unbudging and less lenient listening experiences. They might seem there's not much to add up, and interpretation doesn't wary as much between different ears.
I'm heavily generalizing, of course. There's no iron rule for making great music, and there are countless fully tonal songs that makes you think.
OrangeVision totally on the same page. I love music that plays heavily with dissonance, complex rhythms etc that are difficult to grasp onto at first, and just enough moments of more easily understood patterns to bring you back to peace, and then again tearing it up with crazy shit.
Math rock is a great example. Or even like dissonant ass hardcore music sometimes does this.
Fascinating! I think the ear can eventually get used to atonal sounds and ultimately find beauty in them. The first time I heard Strauss's 'Elektra' and Berg's 'Wozzeck,' I thought, "what the hell?!" Once I got used to the sounds, I thought they're among the most beautiful pieces I've ever heard.
I really enjoy how you make sense out of these concepts. Best explanations I've heard!
Well articulated and nuanced response; I look forward to more videos.
Life and religion (sorta) explained via music, awesome and interesting! I don't know whether there's truly is order or just chaos in which we've found order for our sanity's sake, but I think like you said Id like to believe we need an equal balance of both which is the basis of certain religions huh
Fascinating thoughts on music and life!
Though I kept getting distracted with the thought that he reminds me of the Sicilian from The Princess Bride 😜
thank you. that really exceeded the expectations with which i clicked on this video. really given my mind something to chew on! youre a great teacher.
+Viraj Circar Thanks for the kind words and thanks for watching.
I'd like to see a "Does Equal Temperament Go Against Nature?" follow-up. I found it interesting that the time was taken to explain the overtone series but not the fact that equal temperament (which is what everyone tunes to these days) doesn't produce a single triad that is in tune. I agree that our ears do prefer simple ratios, but with the exception of the octave and fifth, we don't actually get them on the piano!
You are absolutely right! Here is a video on this subject for you: ruclips.net/video/yOu9yzaiZ7g/видео.html
IMO, atonality is not against the nature because if atonality simply means dissonance, atonal realms are as orderly as tonal realms. As its indirect proof, it is by controlling atonal realms with the assist of my computer that I created this harmony-based twelve tone row, that is, 0,3,5,2,7,10,9,4,1,11,6,8. Here is my youtube video about how this sounds.
ruclips.net/video/hyfYaqx9NZ0/видео.html
I am pretty sure that this melody/harmonic progression sounds very consonant and supposing that atonality is chaotic, how can I create that tone row out of chaos? What I mean here is that the definition of atonality from a perspective of western music theory is wrong.
Ok, a pure fifth is 3/2. But, if the tuning is very slightly off, the numerical relationship becomes immensely complex. Yet we almost don’t even notice. On a piano, no interval is exactly 3/2, but slightly smaller. We still use it for playing tonal music compostions, and accept them even though the fractions are not simple at all. There must be something else going on than just the notion of «simple fractions».
You are right that tempered tuning does not have perfect mathematical relationships. However, the overtone series is based on the fundamental laws of physics, and the frequencies of the overtones are mathematically related to the frequency of the fundamental tone. This is true of most musical instruments such as French horn and flute.
it's an interesting question and I think it's a mix of both.
But I'd say that nature is more "chaotic" to us humans. Of course there is an organization (or at least, what we think that is "organization") but this can't be always seen very clearly, because we're most used to human organization. "Organization" is much more obvious to us, because we feel much more comfortable in it.
When you hear the sound of nature, it's atonal, it's not "tonal"/organized. If you take Olivier Messian, he tried to imitate the birds, and it's one of the most remarquable atonal pieces that you can find.
When you see nature, for example grass or trees, it's "chaotic" to us because it's growing and full of "bad herbs". Human gardens are organized, like the royal gardens in France or England; but they're not natural at all. They're the fruit of human intervention, and personnally, that's one of the reasons why I don't like them = they cannot be what they would normally be without humans.
I'd say that atonal music IS nature, and in the same time tonal music is like humans trying to control their space.
But maybe at a final point, it's a little of both. Atonal music IS both natural and unnatural. Natural because it's much closer to the real natural sounds, and unnatural because human music is human. We can get as closer as we want from nature, but we will only imitate it.
These are just my thoughts:
I personally incline more toward the Order philosophy. I don’t subscribe to chaos although I acknowledge its existence in certain aspects. But in life and consciousness .. it’s purely Order in my opinion.
I’ve always interpreted a major scale (and the relative minor) as a rainbow 🌈
There are 7 colors .. just like in a major scale.. with the 8th being the same as 1 but an octave higher.
I feel safe to say the majority of the people in the world find the colors of the rainbow visually pleasant. For this reason I feel just as safe to say the vast majority of people find diatonic music more pleasant than non-diatonic because the structure is closely bounded within the « rainbow ». I believe there might be a connection .
A few licks here and there outside the « rainbow » are ok as long as they dont completely muddy it up .. like in atonal music.. which I can’t stand lol And so far from what it seems, the majority of people can’t either lol
It upsets me and I'm trying to figure out why. I cry at quartets and piano concerts (good ones) but I can barely listen to this.
I like melodies and harmonies, and i dig melodic noodles and cabbage
One thing not spoken about is the nature of language. Music(art) is a language. One that has a vocabulary and is expressive. Even when speaking of chaos -that is a human concept in language,
excellent video
Nature is what happens when the laws of science interact when humans don’t intervene. It simply doesn’t care weather music fallows one set of arbitrary man-made principles or another. Weather something is “orderly” or not is just a matter of human perception. Just play/compose/listen to what you like!
Awesome!
Can you a video on the history of atonal music?
Thanks ,Very Good video
I just came here for a piano lesson, not philosophy though that's too say I didn't appreciate it. but I did :3
if you're interested in the mathematical justification check out this video: ruclips.net/video/cyW5z-M2yzw/видео.html
listen tto Michio Kaku: String Theory... lol.
Atonality is either a constructed ordered system following strict arbitrary rules or just well intended chaos. Either way it will never be truly popular however clever the composer is because it is too diverse a system to become widely comprehensible to the general listener. At least tonal music has the saving grace of the harmonic series and the natural human instinct for rhythm. The perfect 5th is actually a 3/2 ratio by the way.
LOL this channel is always simply lying about everything. The harmonic series doesn't even correspond to the piano's keys! The 7th harmonic, which is the 4th most important interval in the series can't even be represented on a 12 tone piano! You can't ''play'' the harmonic series on a piano and just lie about what the tones are. Tonal music isn't ''natural'', it's just a cultural value that western music has made the norm, pretty much none of the other historical cultures music can be fairly represented by 12 tone equal temperament. Tonal music is simply a logical structure that communicates development of sound very well, 12 tone music does that too but usually has more mathematical dissonances because it's a more complex system. A lot of contemporary microtonal art music matches the harmonic series way better than any of them, 7-limit and 11-limit music are the most common but I think some systems such as the 205tet of the tonal plexus has gone up all the way to the 23rd harmonic!
Why are you equating the 12 tone equal temperament with tonality?
Also, I don't know why people keep saying that key centres (tonality) is a western concept, functional harmony is a western concept, but key centres exist in non-western music
Here's a Syriac Christmas hymn for example that has a key centre of C, the major third (E) is tuned lower than the 12 TET, but it still has a tonal centre
ruclips.net/video/omr-_zJtxVU/видео.html
Here's another example from the Syriac tradition that has a key centre of A, again it's not in 12 TET, the minor sixth (F) sounds a bit lower than the minor sixth equivalent in 12 TET, but it still has a tonal centre
ruclips.net/video/-6tOmVcKS4s/видео.html
I know your post is from 2 years ago, but I just want to know what having a discussion about this topic is like. Also, yes, the maker of this video didn't accurately talk about the harmonic series, but the harmonic series is key to understanding what makes a consonance (resolution) and a dissonance (tension).
None of those notes you played except the octaves and the fifths are overtones. Your playing on an equal tempered piano which is 'against nature' so you can't ask the question if atonal music goes against nature because it doesn't make any sense.