Personally I liked the ending. The thing with the fake Donna was maybe a little underutilised in the grand scheme of things, but I think the point was to hammer home how close this episode was to having a tragic ending. The story, in the words of RTD, was about pushing the characters to their limits. Like, when the Doctor, after suppressing all of his emotions and trauma throughout Jodie's run, was finally open and honest about how guilty he feels for half the universe being destroyed. And then he realises he got it wrong and his one brief moment of vulnerability backfired on him and hurt him even more. Donna, meanwhile, was terrified that she'd never see her family again, she's stranded on the very edge of the universe, as far away as she could possibly be from them, and she is constantly getting separated from her *one* way home, the Doctor. She spends a lot of time wondering what they'll do without her, how Rose will move on, etc. And then finally the ending comes along, the Doctor makes the wrong choice *again* and almost lets yet another person die, while Donna, however briefly, gets left behind and believes that her worst fears are coming true after all. Even if the Doctor realised his mistake quickly, I don't think that's the point. He's gonna be thinking about how close he came to leaving his best friend behind for the rest of his life. That moment of the two of them sitting on the floor, hugging each other, was the point. The episode was incredibly traumatic for the both of them. The TARDIS just materialising out of nowhere to save the day is maybe a little lazy, but it was established it'd come back as soon as the danger was over early in the episode, so I don't reaallly have a problem with that part either. Either way, great commentary as always :)
I love it as a twist on the usual "spot the impostor" story, because normally a story with this setup would say that since they're such good friends and the Doctor is so smart he'd just know. But no, he gets it wrong, through no fault of his own. From front to back this story is a situation made to shake these characters specifically, something very challenging when it's with a companion as experienced as Donna. All in all the Doctor grabbing the wrong one and catching it with only a few seconds to spare is less of a major plot beat and more something to ensure that there is no sense of triumph in the end. They survived and they were lucky to.
I like some of the character changes, like Donna is much more mature and really motivated to get back to her family, whereas before she was happy to leave them behind.The Doctor actually said he WILL BE alright," rather than lying and saying "I'm always alright" as the Tenth Doctor would have done. And I like the acknowledgement of the Flux and the Timeless Child. I am curious to see how invoking superstition at the edge of the universe, (which The Doctor created during the Flux), affects events in the next episode and how it all affects the next regeneration.
The things from the void pretty directly mirror problem with AI, even the "I always get the arms wrong" (fingers). The fact that they were a reflection of the chaos and war and strife in the universe, like when chatbots end up racist within a few hours of being fed social media content, etc.
The switches between the Doctor-notDonna and the Donna-notDoctor first scenes at first could be us jumping around in time like that _Gilmore Girls_ episode with the tense dinner (just given different moments out of order). I actually would be okay with an episode where we do something like that. This was brilliant, though. One of my favorite episodes ever.
Aw, I love this episode! Although I could have done without the Newton opening, unless it is going to come into play later.... Both "gravity" and "mavity" were spoken on the space ship. Which survives? I need to rewatch.... Not sure I understand why the TARDIS was playing the Air Force Song. Donna previously called the Doctor a "Great big outer space dunce." Twelfth Doctor called himself "an idiot" KITTY CAT!! It did resolve very quickly. But the space ship was about to blow up, so..... Seeing Wilf made me teary.
The Doctor used both mavity and gravity because he's been established as being able to remember timelines that have been altered or erased. Donna didn't know what the word meant.
@@wendyheatherwood You keep repeating the obvious. If you re-read my post, by saying "unless it is going to come into play later," and wondering "which one survives," I was referring to the future and how the coming episodes might change things.
I adore your reviews! Your point that the state of the world is being reflected here through the darkness, hate, and viciousness depicted in the quasi-human monsters at the edge of the universe is spot on. Love letters don't travel as far. Free Palestine. 🍉
My favourite episode of Doctor Who since Midnight (unsurprising considering its similarities with Midnight). We get to explore the Doctor and Donna's interactions now they're back together, the trauma the Doctor has from the Moffat and Chibnall eras is handled 10 times better here than they were in those eras, the atmosphere is on-point, and getting David and Catherine to play the villains was a great call. Russell said he wanted a story making the most of David and Catherine, and he delivered there. I particularly love going back to the scenes where you don't know who's who because I keep noticing subtle differences which distinguish the not-things from the Doctor and Donna. As for the ending, while the Tardis just showing up would be a cop-out in a lot of episodes, it really makes sense here because the Tardis was only gone to avoid hostile action and it just makes so much sense for the Tardis to come back in time. We still get to see the Doctor need to work out how to stop the not-things so it's not like it was easy for him so it's not like the plot completely resolves itself. As for the Donna thing they can't kill her if they need her for the next episode. Maybe it would've been cool if we had an extra episode with the Doctor travelling with the not-thing and slowly realising it's not Donna, but an extra episode may of course have been a production issue and it has been established in the show before that the Doctor can't go back in time to save someone right before an explosion (and it would make the whole show too easy if they could). I just think it's funny having Russell troll people like that. And it still shows both the audience and the Doctor how close he was to losing someone else. With The Star Beast it definitely needed another 10-15 minutes, but this episode is perfect.
*Yes* , I was waiting for this before I actually rate this episode. Your opinion and insights always help so much to adjust or confirm my opinion on something... (watching your reaction *now* !)
I really enjoyed your thoughts, as always! But I wanted to mention that the sped up footage was a little anxiety inducing. Personally I'd prefer a watermark or text covering the screen if it's a copyright issue. The sped up footage made it feel like I was being told to hurry up rather than relax and enjoy your thoughts.
That's fair, I kinda scuffed the playback speed tbh. Watching it back in the edit, some parts were TOO sped up even though I never went above 2x (it was difficult to adjust this after a certain point). It's the first time I've used it so it was a little bit of a learning experience as it was purely for copyright. But thank you for the feedback. I enjoyed how it helped reduce the overall video length so I'll likely experiment with it more in future, but if you get the same feeling even despite that please do say 😊 I would be aiming more so for a balance of achieving what I want while alleviating the feeling you got (if that's possible), so I'll see if I can do that before forsaking it altogether. Truthfully, I didn't think about how it might impact the overall vibe, so that's helpful to know. It's difficult to say whether blurring sections would be an adequate alternative at this stage as my first cut of this got through copyright whereas various blurring took maybe 12 cuts of the last episode trial and error'ing' to get RUclips to play ball. Anyways, sorry for the anxiety 😅 I'll keep working on it!
My biggest issue with this episode, besides the ending effectively nullifying the episode and meaning it had no real effect, was that it missed the value of being an anniversary special. Previously, with the Flesh gangers for example, we have seen things trying to imitate the doctor struggle to process the concept of regenerations and they had experience of shape and the doctor trying to help. Here the entities were relying purely on thoughts to try and manifest themselves. Especially with the doctor looking back and regretting things, the entities should have showed the faces/companions/situations the doctor was thinking of. Imagine the power of the scene if we had had a version of the first doctor making the point about the doctor not knowing where he came from. Or Ecclestone with hia regret about Galifray still being missing/destroyed a second time. Or Adric/Harriet Jones talking about those who have died for the doctor.
I'd rather have an episode that's a masterpiece rather than having an episode with unnatural change of pace halfway through and an overcomplication of its otherwise simple-but-effective premise just to try and be like other anniversary specials. Donna making the point about Gallifrey is so much better because it brings out the Doctor's vulnerability.
yeah, that feels a lot more natural to me, and it makes way for more genuine character development that would make this episode stand out more. I really have been enjoying RTD's return. Now I can look at an episode and point out things disliked instead of trying so hard to enjoy Chris's run. the character writing is so much stronger now in my opinion. Your suggestion reminds me of an episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer where the town was cursed to sing themselves to death whilst also having them sing about their emotions, this made it so that they suppressed feelings were exposed. Great story tool
Would you prefer that Donna die and the Doctor return with her double? This is something that could be done with a longer series (cough-Angel-cough), but it would still be pretty cheap to bring Donna back, return her memories, only to kill her off (while keeping the actress). Or what would be your solution if that isn't what you were thinking? Thanks.
Endings are hard to write to begin with. When you have to write about truly brilliant alien, someone who is definitely smarter than any human being alive, as a human writer there are things you have to "yadda yadda", you know?
Always liked Stephen King on endings as necessarily unsatisfactory. Life doesn't have endings (we die but that isn't a narrative end, our story continues), so even endings we like feel sort of odd and lost. .
Even with excellent, brilliant actors you cant turn shit script into good episode/movie. Real world problems do not belong to fiction, not directly at least.
this one was about being stuck on a spaceship beyond the edge of the universe being menaced by mysterious entities who are copying your thoughts and your body to try to invade the universe. I struggle to see how your discomfort with using Doctor Who, or fantasy/sci-fi in general to make comment on real world problems works as a criticism of this episode in particular.
@@paulhammond6978 An awful lot of people comment without actually watching the show based on things they think they know about it because it serves their own purposes.
Personally I liked the ending. The thing with the fake Donna was maybe a little underutilised in the grand scheme of things, but I think the point was to hammer home how close this episode was to having a tragic ending. The story, in the words of RTD, was about pushing the characters to their limits.
Like, when the Doctor, after suppressing all of his emotions and trauma throughout Jodie's run, was finally open and honest about how guilty he feels for half the universe being destroyed. And then he realises he got it wrong and his one brief moment of vulnerability backfired on him and hurt him even more. Donna, meanwhile, was terrified that she'd never see her family again, she's stranded on the very edge of the universe, as far away as she could possibly be from them, and she is constantly getting separated from her *one* way home, the Doctor. She spends a lot of time wondering what they'll do without her, how Rose will move on, etc.
And then finally the ending comes along, the Doctor makes the wrong choice *again* and almost lets yet another person die, while Donna, however briefly, gets left behind and believes that her worst fears are coming true after all. Even if the Doctor realised his mistake quickly, I don't think that's the point. He's gonna be thinking about how close he came to leaving his best friend behind for the rest of his life. That moment of the two of them sitting on the floor, hugging each other, was the point. The episode was incredibly traumatic for the both of them.
The TARDIS just materialising out of nowhere to save the day is maybe a little lazy, but it was established it'd come back as soon as the danger was over early in the episode, so I don't reaallly have a problem with that part either.
Either way, great commentary as always :)
I love it as a twist on the usual "spot the impostor" story, because normally a story with this setup would say that since they're such good friends and the Doctor is so smart he'd just know. But no, he gets it wrong, through no fault of his own. From front to back this story is a situation made to shake these characters specifically, something very challenging when it's with a companion as experienced as Donna.
All in all the Doctor grabbing the wrong one and catching it with only a few seconds to spare is less of a major plot beat and more something to ensure that there is no sense of triumph in the end. They survived and they were lucky to.
I like some of the character changes, like Donna is much more mature and really motivated to get back to her family, whereas before she was happy to leave them behind.The Doctor actually said he WILL BE alright," rather than lying and saying "I'm always alright" as the Tenth Doctor would have done. And I like the acknowledgement of the Flux and the Timeless Child. I am curious to see how invoking superstition at the edge of the universe, (which The Doctor created during the Flux), affects events in the next episode and how it all affects the next regeneration.
The things from the void pretty directly mirror problem with AI, even the "I always get the arms wrong" (fingers). The fact that they were a reflection of the chaos and war and strife in the universe, like when chatbots end up racist within a few hours of being fed social media content, etc.
The switches between the Doctor-notDonna and the Donna-notDoctor first scenes at first could be us jumping around in time like that _Gilmore Girls_ episode with the tense dinner (just given different moments out of order). I actually would be okay with an episode where we do something like that. This was brilliant, though. One of my favorite episodes ever.
Aw, I love this episode! Although I could have done without the Newton opening, unless it is going to come into play later.... Both "gravity" and "mavity" were spoken on the space ship. Which survives?
I need to rewatch.... Not sure I understand why the TARDIS was playing the Air Force Song.
Donna previously called the Doctor a "Great big outer space dunce." Twelfth Doctor called himself "an idiot"
KITTY CAT!!
It did resolve very quickly. But the space ship was about to blow up, so.....
Seeing Wilf made me teary.
The Doctor used both mavity and gravity because he's been established as being able to remember timelines that have been altered or erased. Donna didn't know what the word meant.
@@wendyheatherwood Doesn't answer my question: which survives?
@sallyatticum at this point mavity. Humans can generally only remember the current reality. Timelords can remember multiple timelines at once.
@@wendyheatherwood You keep repeating the obvious. If you re-read my post, by saying "unless it is going to come into play later," and wondering "which one survives," I was referring to the future and how the coming episodes might change things.
And thus was born the "mavity" AU.
I adore your reviews! Your point that the state of the world is being reflected here through the darkness, hate, and viciousness depicted in the quasi-human monsters at the edge of the universe is spot on. Love letters don't travel as far.
Free Palestine. 🍉
My favourite episode of Doctor Who since Midnight (unsurprising considering its similarities with Midnight). We get to explore the Doctor and Donna's interactions now they're back together, the trauma the Doctor has from the Moffat and Chibnall eras is handled 10 times better here than they were in those eras, the atmosphere is on-point, and getting David and Catherine to play the villains was a great call. Russell said he wanted a story making the most of David and Catherine, and he delivered there. I particularly love going back to the scenes where you don't know who's who because I keep noticing subtle differences which distinguish the not-things from the Doctor and Donna.
As for the ending, while the Tardis just showing up would be a cop-out in a lot of episodes, it really makes sense here because the Tardis was only gone to avoid hostile action and it just makes so much sense for the Tardis to come back in time. We still get to see the Doctor need to work out how to stop the not-things so it's not like it was easy for him so it's not like the plot completely resolves itself.
As for the Donna thing they can't kill her if they need her for the next episode. Maybe it would've been cool if we had an extra episode with the Doctor travelling with the not-thing and slowly realising it's not Donna, but an extra episode may of course have been a production issue and it has been established in the show before that the Doctor can't go back in time to save someone right before an explosion (and it would make the whole show too easy if they could). I just think it's funny having Russell troll people like that. And it still shows both the audience and the Doctor how close he was to losing someone else. With The Star Beast it definitely needed another 10-15 minutes, but this episode is perfect.
*Yes* , I was waiting for this before I actually rate this episode. Your opinion and insights always help so much to adjust or confirm my opinion on something... (watching your reaction *now* !)
This episode knocked it out of the park.
Byooootyfooolll paintings you have there in the background 👌
I really enjoyed your thoughts, as always! But I wanted to mention that the sped up footage was a little anxiety inducing. Personally I'd prefer a watermark or text covering the screen if it's a copyright issue. The sped up footage made it feel like I was being told to hurry up rather than relax and enjoy your thoughts.
I'm okay with the speed of the footage but I find Tyler speaks rapidly enough that I play the episodes at .75 speed
That's fair, I kinda scuffed the playback speed tbh. Watching it back in the edit, some parts were TOO sped up even though I never went above 2x (it was difficult to adjust this after a certain point). It's the first time I've used it so it was a little bit of a learning experience as it was purely for copyright. But thank you for the feedback.
I enjoyed how it helped reduce the overall video length so I'll likely experiment with it more in future, but if you get the same feeling even despite that please do say 😊 I would be aiming more so for a balance of achieving what I want while alleviating the feeling you got (if that's possible), so I'll see if I can do that before forsaking it altogether. Truthfully, I didn't think about how it might impact the overall vibe, so that's helpful to know.
It's difficult to say whether blurring sections would be an adequate alternative at this stage as my first cut of this got through copyright whereas various blurring took maybe 12 cuts of the last episode trial and error'ing' to get RUclips to play ball. Anyways, sorry for the anxiety 😅 I'll keep working on it!
My biggest issue with this episode, besides the ending effectively nullifying the episode and meaning it had no real effect, was that it missed the value of being an anniversary special.
Previously, with the Flesh gangers for example, we have seen things trying to imitate the doctor struggle to process the concept of regenerations and they had experience of shape and the doctor trying to help. Here the entities were relying purely on thoughts to try and manifest themselves. Especially with the doctor looking back and regretting things, the entities should have showed the faces/companions/situations the doctor was thinking of.
Imagine the power of the scene if we had had a version of the first doctor making the point about the doctor not knowing where he came from. Or Ecclestone with hia regret about Galifray still being missing/destroyed a second time. Or Adric/Harriet Jones talking about those who have died for the doctor.
I'd rather have an episode that's a masterpiece rather than having an episode with unnatural change of pace halfway through and an overcomplication of its otherwise simple-but-effective premise just to try and be like other anniversary specials. Donna making the point about Gallifrey is so much better because it brings out the Doctor's vulnerability.
yeah, that feels a lot more natural to me, and it makes way for more genuine character development that would make this episode stand out more. I really have been enjoying RTD's return. Now I can look at an episode and point out things disliked instead of trying so hard to enjoy Chris's run. the character writing is so much stronger now in my opinion.
Your suggestion reminds me of an episode of Buffy The Vampire Slayer where the town was cursed to sing themselves to death whilst also having them sing about their emotions, this made it so that they suppressed feelings were exposed. Great story tool
Would you prefer that Donna die and the Doctor return with her double? This is something that could be done with a longer series (cough-Angel-cough), but it would still be pretty cheap to bring Donna back, return her memories, only to kill her off (while keeping the actress). Or what would be your solution if that isn't what you were thinking? Thanks.
Tyler, you have really really great hair too
THANK YOU ❤️ also, I will forever twist this into vaguely saying that people have compared my hair to David Tennant's 👀😂
@@TylerAlexanderand remember you have one up on the Doctor who is still not ginger 😂
One of the most unsettling episodes in a long while. Very effective.
I could see the Doctor having different sexualities depending on the incarnation.
Endings are hard to write to begin with. When you have to write about truly brilliant alien, someone who is definitely smarter than any human being alive, as a human writer there are things you have to "yadda yadda", you know?
It was generally done good with Data in Star Trek..without noteworthy yadayadayada^^
@@NashmanNash all of them have some yadda yadda
Always liked Stephen King on endings as necessarily unsatisfactory. Life doesn't have endings (we die but that isn't a narrative end, our story continues), so even endings we like feel sort of odd and lost. .
Why would the fake ones be trying to trick each other, though? Practicing?
Tyler's hands are too big at about 14:30 are you Tyler?
I'm often just listening while I work anyway :p
There's something called over analysis... This video is perfect example of that... 5hanks for your effort though...
I respectfully disagree. I feel that Tyler's review was extremely helpful in thinking about a flawed episode
but thanks for the condescension
Even with excellent, brilliant actors you cant turn shit script into good episode/movie.
Real world problems do not belong to fiction, not directly at least.
yes they should, wtf are you on about?
Huh?
what exactly do you propose writing about then? An argument over a sword between two elves on a fantasy world on a different planet?
this one was about being stuck on a spaceship beyond the edge of the universe being menaced by mysterious entities who are copying your thoughts and your body to try to invade the universe. I struggle to see how your discomfort with using Doctor Who, or fantasy/sci-fi in general to make comment on real world problems works as a criticism of this episode in particular.
@@paulhammond6978 An awful lot of people comment without actually watching the show based on things they think they know about it because it serves their own purposes.
Perfectly structured?! There was NO story there one hour of Tate and Tennant faffing around is not what I signed up for awful episode
bro what. did you even pay attention?? there absolutely is a well structured story in this episode 😂
@@fizzycolalizzie where ?! It's literally an hour long non event
@@JoshPinder92if you want story but you don’t listen to the dialogue and the characters at all you’re always going to be disappointed mate
@@fizzycolalizzie what you on about ?!. We have had two hours of no events so far
@@JoshPinder92then tell me an episode that has 'event'
NO, IT DOES NOT