You would need hand tracking and maybe voice commands I think and it would need to be fast. Like almost no leniency. If you are making a part or designing a home you want a tool that makes it faster not slower
@@answeris4217 I don't necessarily mean using it to design in CAD. I mean using it to display CAD models and make minor adjustments like changing a cabinet, blinds, wall paint etc. style or color, like a 3D demonstration for the final product or viewing your model in a 3D space. This could be useful for clients that are distant or even a team being able to view it together for added perspective. It's already something you can do with some VR headsets, I just like the format this is in with the pad and see through AR instead of VR .
@@luckyleprechaun420 most of the time when choosing cabinets and wall treatments a CAD isn't the tool for that. It's better to go see a sample of the actual treatment or cabinet. A CAD is great for layouts and general staging and creating plans. Like I build furniture and it allows me to show the basic shape and show me the joinery locations and weird angles that are hard to find on a drawing. It can't show how it looks with the wood. Like my avatar is something I will show to a client
I'm so excited for this, I have my backer unit that I purchased solely on hope that supporting the platform will make tabletop ar 3d models possible. Stl, ply obj please!
T5 fan here. Great review. You crammed a lot of hard-to-communicate info in, and your opinions and suggestions are, as I expected, very fair and well argued. Some factual corrections for people who read RUclips comments(?): The square LE board has been offered for sale separately for a few days (probably after this was filmed), but the board included with new kits is the XE shown in the video, rectangular with the extra bit on the back. You can extend the active area with silver retroreflective fabric, but not with RR paint or beads. RR paint does the same thing as silver fabric, but much less efficiently, and it would be too dim to be worth it. The glasses transmit about 40% of the light from the real world, just the same as a set of polarized sunglasses or theater polarizer glasses. No polarizer can theoretically pass more than 50% of unpolarized light, and real ones absorb another 10% in practice. The 85% number (or 15% loss) that T5 talks about is the amount of *light sent out* that passes back through the lens. This is by contrast with other optical AR systems that struggle for brightness because they have to pump out and throw away 80-90% of their light in their optics chain. There is absolutely a significant limit to the vertical FOV, but the cutoff you discussed, at the top particularly, can be an artifact of bad vertical position and angling due to the single default nosepiece supplied. Now that doesn't actually help you solve your problem; they ran into manufacturing difficulties molding the nosepiece variety pack in summer 2022 and there's been no serious word since then. You shouldn't have to, but you could bust out some Sugru...
@@gmsrki If you can find a quieter DC axial fan at that same size, I'm sure Tilt Five would love to hear from you. I've looked myself to no avail. Then again, maybe they could have gone with a different solution to move air around like Frore Systems' AirJet or Mide Technology's Piezoflo. Either of them would likely be quieter and less prone to breakage.
As long as the glasses see the tracking dots you can lay out as much material as you like. I've mainly done it as a back wall to add height. I have a few videos on my channel about it.
This would be perfect for virtual pinball tables. Also imagine a cockpit setup with retrorelfective sheets instead of windows.... you can see all your controls with your actual eyes. no passthrough required.
Ellsworth, the inventor and cofounder/CEO of the company, is a huge pinball fan and collector. She's tried hooking it up to VPE, the underway Unity port of Visual Pinball. Last word is she hit a weird problem where the projects compiled but physics didn't work. The lead developer of VPE dropped into the Discord and offered to help. Hopefully stuff's cranking away behind the scenes as people have time!
I'm glad to see you giving a very honest review. I have the Tilt Five (with the extended board). The other negative which you didn't mention, is that because the board folds up, you get thin black lines, where the projected image can't reflect. In most games it's not an issue, but in some - for me Figmin - the act of focusing your eyes makes those black lines cross over. I find it very distracting. But you have to take it for what it was invented for. That's sitting with friends around a table. I thought the speakers were terrible, but then I thought "you need to be able to speak to people beside you". There is definitely a sweet spot to getting the image very bright and very sharp. You have to sit pretty close to the board. The images are sometimes jerky, but T5 are releasing new drivers, and they're working on it all the time. Gabe Newell released a video saying "it's far more compelling than I thought it would be" and he's contacted developers for it. So at this stage, it's up to us - the users - to support what is a very small team, with limited resources and a very tight budget. What I've noticed about Tilt Five, is that every time I go back to it, I like it that little bit more. It's cute and good fun. It's a bit more of a gentle gaming experience..... I like your idea of not having to use the PC when you first turn it on. But you know? How lazy are we going to be? You can see your entire environment perfectly clearly, so just look at your pc and launch a game. And "setting the board up" - it's designed to be an experience for "game night", it takes roughly 10 seconds to unfold the board. But I'm a lazy person, so I shamefully agree with you. It is early days with it. But they've done so well to get it this far. It's taken a very intelligent person, 12 years to work out. She's created the technology to do it. It is the first of its kind. So I think even though it's not currently what everybody would like (Jeri included) the only way we have what we do want, is to keep supporting her. It's been a number of important steps, she's finally been able to get the units produced and shipped, so now it's the time to concentrate on improving stability and performance, software, features - all that. Well done for telling the truth, even though some of those truths aren't easy to say, towards a friend. ............ Like I said, what I come away with, is that the more I play on it, the more I like it. My favourite game is the zombie demo. I like how close the exploded zombies fly up towards your face 😁 Comfort is tricky for me, but that's because I wear glasses and have a little nose. As for the price, I think considering that it's a small team that's not going to sell millions of them, it's a good price. I want a board that's rolled up, so I can get rid of the lines - even though the build quality of the board, is lovely. In fact the quality all round is really nice. Really nice design, lovely box, nice feeling sturdy plastic on the headset and the wand. I've hit the board a few times, but the wand still stands ☺️ The buttons are a bit crap, but they're more than good enough for the job. The speakers are crap, but like I said after thinking about it, they're perfect for interacting with those around you (not her fault I don't have anybody). A headphone jack would have been good, but she's had a vision and that was to play with people beside you). The fans are too loud, but I agree with you that in game they don't bother you. It's a different monster. That's what I'm saying. You have to like it for what it is. And as I say, every time I play it, I like it that little bit more. Early days, but let's support Tilt Five.
For most use there is typically very little noticeable warping error. Only when the player's head translates in a sudden and unpredictable manner should an uncorrected warp error get introduced. There's a lot going on to ensure that the image remains registered and correct. The warping algorithm uses the tabletop plane equation as the depth function to reproject the image during the optical correction. Anything rendered that is above or below the plane, has a depth difference from the plane of the table that can introduce a warp error due to the parallax term arising from the height off the table and the difference between the tracked predicted view position and the correct eye position. In practice what this means is that during sudden head movements (translations not rotations) tall 3D objects can be seen to skew slightly off the vertical. Last I checked the prediction of future head poses was not finalized and this was the main tool left to mitigate this. Pixel level reprojection would be the next level solution however that requires more processing and has its own challenging artifacts (e.g. exposed de-occluded pixels behind silhouettes that need to be hallucinated or pulled from other frames). Many systems try this or some variation of it with questionable results. It's one of those frontier problems where lots of compute resources can be spent chasing diminishing returns and perhaps even make things worse before they get better depending on the tradeoffs made and the real-time power & compute resources available.
I'd love to see it compatible with game consoles. Especially the Nintendo Switch. If you could just plug it directly into the switch, or even better use a hub to plug multiple gasses into a switch then just play all or at least a large portion of their games would be awesome. A partnership with Nintendo or even PlayStation and XBox would really give TiltFive a great boost in the right direction. I'm loving mine so far. There is great potential for them. They just have to harness it.
Would love to get this but they really need to nail down the multi-player aspect. I can't justify buying this for just a couple of single player marble games etc. If they had full multi-player support for games, especially D&D type games, I would buy this in a heartbeat.
I'm a Kickstarter backer. I really like the system - so much impressive tech and hard work in there. It's very fun and novel but I haven't yet seen the really compelling apps to make it worth the setup a few days a week yet. Right now I set it up on the weekends once in a while and to show friends. But it's positioned well for that ultimate board gaming experience. I'm excited about Catan and I think perhaps a comprehensive multi-player D&D solution that really works where DMs can offer paid experiences or friend groups can regularly gather might be a great fit here. Anyway, I think it's getting there and Jerry and her team did a great job.
This seems like a great idea...10 years ago. LIke the bar for AR is much higher than just being restricted to a table. I hope they can fold all their R&D into a newer generation with less limitations. You can tell they put a lot of passion and love into this product.
@@baysidejr That's a perfectly reasonable feeling! He reaches pretty much that conclusion at the end, and though I am such an enthusiast, that doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to be. They're trying to chart a path through the market to a generation of software and hardware that can attract a general audience.
You are essentially saying that the oculus rift would have been a great idea in 2006, and it's true! Do you remember why 2016 was a better year for release? There were so many reasons, and I know just as many reasons why this needs to be out there before your dream glasses will become reality.
This combined with CAD/3D Modeling/Sculpting with hand gesture recogition would be amazing. PS also a full room with fileted corners & covered with retroreflective paint.
This. I don't know how to use Blender virtually at all, but I could see 3D object sculpting to be really effective cause of the depth with good control scheme.
This is super cool. An all-in-one HMD gaming system doesn't have to be the only way to do things. The fact that it can run on lower spec computers is a huge boon for the average person who can't afford a so-called “gaming PC” but who still want to play cool, fun, 3D games with whatever hardware they currently use. I could also see this being used at multi-genre sci-fi/gaming conventions such as Dragon Con as well as gaming stores that sell comic books or table-top games. You ought to try this out while also wearing ChromaDepth 3D glasses under the Tilt Five but over your own glasses. They pull warm colors (red, orange, yellow) to the foreground, making them appear to float off the image into real space. Green serves as a neutral middle ground color. Blue, indigo, violet are cool colors that get pushed into the background. This makes those colors look like they are deep below the image where you could reach into the display or whatever the carrier medium is to scoop up objects.
These are so versatile. 1 AR DnD or any tabletop game with friends 2 AR presentation of any type that involves 3D anything, just put the screen on the wall 3 See virtual art pieces in a museum or art gallery 4 AR museum guides 5 In theater you could make the audience wear these to show CGI stuff, CGI in theater is possible with these!!! 6 in schools for like everything, virtual dissections finally etc just from the top of my head, anyone else have other ideas?
Once there’s a good selection of board games with network support-so that we can have two players in one house and two others in another in a different city-and Mac or iPad support, I’ll be sold.
This has been so long in the making. I remember watching the first previews while holding my new born daughter thinking that she might never play a physical board game. I really hope that they can do some work to bring the initial cost down; it's a little steep at the moment, especially with the fairly limited catalog.
Using this to display 3d scans like with Polycam would be an awesome use case. Displaying 3D videos or possibly working with insta360 cameras somehow would be another. The virtual pinball community could have a field day with this too.
Ever since i first saw this product on Tested a while back, I've been wondering if this tech would work well in simulators and cockpits. Rather than finding a way to install and incorporate monitors or conventional projectors, could you just have the "windows" in aircraft, or the "displays" in mechs be that reflective material with tracking markers and essentially have 360 degree wrapped "displays" if desired, without actually having to have "displays" at all. Just that material and it's tracking markers incorporated into the interior of simulators, with the occupants wearing those headsets.
Yup! They actually prototyped that on real Navy aircraft way back at the start of the predecessor CastAR, just throwing fabric over the windows. I want to build a couple stowable, economical simpits with it. The tech does have a couple drawbacks to be aware of: It needs to see a board edge with its single fisheye camera to track, so there's no turning your head more than maybe 60-70 degrees - so no fighter jet dogfighting. The resolution isn't great for instrument panels, same as most VR headsets - pixels work out to about 1mm/meter distance on a side. But still, I think it's an enabling technology for the field.
@@HypoceeYT Fascinating. I'd bet the field of view for tracking is something future generations of the tech can develop further. Agreed it wouldn't be great for instrument panels, but I think practical / physical panels are more fun in simpits anyway. I'm mostly just thinking of the windows or screens through which the pilot sees the world outside the vehicle. Cool to hear this isn't such a far fetched application. :)
They need to accelerate the development of this into a local tabletop game hub. Single player AR is cool, but what's great is multiplayer AR with each player seeing their private cards/stash in hand while sharing a common table, just like a physical board game. This is what's unique about the tech - each player having their own private view - over say tablet gaming where everything's seen by everyone always.
I feel like two player experiences is where this would shine for like animated board games but at about $360 per headset this seems like a lot. Don't see this taking off til they can get like a two pack down to around $400-500.
I went to the site last year to make the purchase--but the games I want just aren't there. RPGs, even turn based action games (loving Midnight Suns right now) are what I want.
I do worry about the effect of the system on our eyes over time. People have had their hearing damaged by in ear headphones and I'd hate to see a similar trend happening with eyes as AR/VR really take off. Looks like these are very safe in terms of light level, but time will tell.
Norm, I was really hoping you'd talk about some of the original castAR-type uses and whether they still work. Such as using the glasses and game board as a TV/monitor to watch things and play normal 2D games. Can you display your computer desktop on it? Etc. For instance, it'd be cool to have a miniature version of the game board that you could take on a plane with you, to use as a screen to watch things without bothering anyone else (or them seeing what you're watching). But I don't actually know if any of this is possible, or not.
"Tom" elsewhere in the comments has whipped up a desktop streaming tool ruclips.net/video/0Y2c_JHiL3c/видео.html , and T5 has put an experimental tool in the SDK that lets you use different sized/oriented boards without applications knowing about it. You could combine those to pull off that scenario. Mind you, though I'm a fan of the tech, I don't think it would be worth the work.
@@KyoshoLP A certain platform around here absolutely loves to shadow can, so to speak, helpful, unique, informative...comets...while allowing 300 identical ones a second from 10-minute-old accounts. Typically about 1/3 of mine, with tone like my reply to you, stick around. I think the robots are leaving me alone here because I got some up thumbs. I'd guess his reply was turned to vapor by that party without his knowledge.
it is hard to know what you mean by the image being fuzzy.. I am wodering if that would mean that they would be in adequate for displaying 3d (stereoscopic movies?
A couple people have rigged 3D movie playback and said it looked good. (That said, for legal reasons there's unlikely to ever be software released to play them.) The fuzziness makes the system ill-suited to games with small text and icons.
@@manp1039 You need to pay a megacorp (in practice, overwhelmingly the MPEG Licensing Administration) a license fee to distribute software that uses its software patents, even if you make no money. VLC gets around this by being legally based in France where software patents are not a thing. Other free media player programs must have other tricks. But the risk of getting your legal bullshit wrong and getting crushed like a bug is a pretty real disincentive to just throwing together a toy to watch a niche format on a niche device. I myself low-key want to _piggyback_ off VLC someday, but doing 3D manipulations and GUI on video streams is pretty advanced, and writing VLC plugins doesn't look particularly easy.
@@HypoceeYT i think you are wrong.. first of all.. all that need to be done is to port in RUclips to view stereoscopic videos, for example. What i have suggested does not necesarily mean creating a brand new media viewer.. can merely port in existing viewers. and to get stereoscopic view just need to pass the right and left eye accordingly from a side by side video.
I'm surprised that there isn't more focus on just standard board games... Surely that would be the biggest draw card for something like this over gaming. People spend time setting up board games to play for an hour or so and then pack them away.
"People don't get sick using those" - well... no. 3 out of 5 members of my family felt sick after 3-8 minutes (marbles demo). We tried couple of times across a month of owning this thing, and it keeps happening. Not sure of the cause. If I had to guess - the glasses often lose tracking and "skip" or jitter (my whole family use VR daily, we got the vr legs). Every time you rotate your head like 15 degrees away from the board it looses tracking and the game view stops, skips, jitters, or disappears. You look back at the board and the picture appears, for example, upside down and then snaps back to place with some jittering. This is so annoying that after a few times nobody uses it, and - considering the low resolution and very "floaty" tracking - never will again, I think.
Since you specify having it for one month the answer is likely yes, but just checking that you were using driver 1.3.0 or later (released January 20) and software compiled with a 1.3.x SDK. The wobbling problem was a known issue as they entered development hell on 1.3, which eventually introduced pose prediction to greatly reduce it. 1.3 also made six months' worth of upgrades to the speed and stability of the tracking. Now, 1.3 is only sort of retroactive - it applies a compromise pose prediction to earlier software that doesn't know to ask for the info. The only programs I know of that should have fully up-to-date tracking are 1.3's pack-in Marbles, Figmin XR, Icosi-do, Takenoko, and soon the Demo Pack, Battle Planet, and Battle Map Studio. That's a whole other but legitimate issue.
@@HypoceeYT I just gave it one more try. One thing is in plus in 1.3.2 - the image blurs out and fades away when you turn away from the board rather than strobe and jitter, which is an improvement. But still... noisy fans, quite a lot of heat on your forehead, abysmal resolution (it's ok when you are 20cm from the board, but if you are 50cm away (most of the time) it's like the old Oculus DK1. Btw. in Unity SDK you can limit the FOV to get the resolution better - but... well, you have low FOV then. Like in Magic Leap (which I also have, just to note I know what I'm talking about). The AR still floats. It's not like the holograms are a part of your world, glued to your board, like, for example, in AR games on your smartphone. It's more like the board is a portal to a completely separate world, and the game world always "floats" +/-5cm when you move your head. It doesn't feel like the game is happening "on" the board, in your room. This is disappointing, I imagined the holograms will be more like "glued" to the board (not moving in relation to the board) - but they are not, they float quite a bit. Tracking is very sub-par in comparison to plain smartphone AR. Get a LEGO catalog and point your smartphone at it to see AR - the holograms are almost welded to the pages, the tracking is so good there. Now, why did I have such expectations before buying this? Because it looks like it would work that way from the videos, even in this Tested video, when they use this mixcast thing. But in reality, it is much, much different.
@@Kubold I based my expectations on physical through-the-lens videos and photos that have been taken for ten years, most of them not under TI/T5's control. This video includes three physical shots, visibly shot by Chan on the same setup/table/room as the rest of the video. They're at 8:58 - 9:18 10:24 - 10:53 11:03 - 11:19 and the latter two are seemingly at a typical use height and distance. If you crank the video to high res, does the resolution and tracking match your experience? Over the year or so T5's been shipping consumer units, I've seen six or seven people come through the Discord reporting badly miscalibrated projectors, which instead of being good out to "a few meters" as specced suddenly hit the end of their focal zone at 20-30cm. When people contact T5 support they generally stop reporting in the Discord, so I can't quite promise that yes this was the problem and doing an RMA got a unit without the problem. But it's sure suggestive to me that you report the same distance cutoff. Bad focus wouldn't cause bad tracking, so if you got hit by two independent problems that's remarkable - but stranger things have happened? A different unit is unlikely to do anything about the fan noise, and probably not about heat either. At a stretch, some people have got units with bad heatsinking which made them flaky. It's _possible_ that bad thermal contact could be both raising the temperature of the heatsink/ejected air and making the Movidius chip just barely not cut out leading to your fragile and laggy tracking. If you conclude you got a bad unit I hope you'll consider contacting support at tiltfive dot com with a report to start the RMA process. I've never heard of them turning one down. (Some other TTL videos and a couple photos of what the projection should look like, mostly at 1XX cm distance. Sorry this will definitely get shaded if I actually make them chain. youtube /user/p00ky76/videos twitter /tiltfive/status/1403441015797600256 twitter /tacolamp/status/1423239634868310019 twitter /tacolamp/status/1394881752791846914 twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1627251782463401984 (obviously low res depth video, but check the sharp edges/corners on the particles) twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1627095037921349633 (recent tracking example) twitter /iBrews/status/1506887634412400645/photo/1 twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1626173140354359296/photo/2 )
Great review; I feel like I've got a complete idea of what this thing is like to use 👍 Kudos to Ms Ellsworth for persevering and finally getting this thing to market.
People have done so. Right now in practice there's some conflict with SteamOS' Proton compatibility layer, so it's required installing Windows on the Deck. The Deck by itself also can't quite pump enough juice out its USB port to run the T5, so they needed to use a powered USB hub or extension. But it's a good partner, and getting the driver working with SteamOS is a priority. T5 hope to release their first public Linux driver Any Day Now, but that just affects the number of eyes on the problem. They've developed and tested their driver and software on Linux first from the start.
I think a mini drive in theater as a media player(kind of like Bigscreen VR) would be fun. You could watch a movie and have a bunch of tiny cars pulling in out of the drive-in.
Many thanks for this full review ! I have Tilt five in my radar for years waiting to have a review. I have 3 questions : - How do you compare with a Smart Table ? - How is the SDK ? Can you do easy ThreeJS without heavy coding on Unity? - What about phygital: mixing dice and pawn with virtuality ? The problem with Looking glass or TiltFive is the v2, v3 deprecate the v1 and it's not heaven hackable to do something ... Always my feeling is it's cool then what can I do other than a Indy games ?
- Smart tables in general aren't 3D if that matters. Most can't show a unique view for each user. Viewing angles can be very bad depending on the panel tech. They're higher resolution than T5, better for text, tagging, and dense information. You don't generally want to slide physical things around on either. These days a smart table is probably cheaper than equipping a few people with T5. T5 can be easily extended with cheap fabric to a data bowl, bench, or other large volume. - No. They're talking about getting OpenXR support into it someday, but even that is a layer or two removed from Three.js. In theory somebody could crank through and implement support using the so-called "Native Development Kit", but it would be a huge amount of work. Nobody in the fandom or at T5 is doing it. - That's been a goal of the technology from the beginning. You could do it for a year now if you supplied your own camera and/or sensors. In January they released the first driver that provides the video feed from the onboard "tangible tracker" camera, which is intended for the purpose. Almost all projects will run it through OpenCV.
@@HypoceeYT Thanks ! Very inetresting, all the tech you describe make me really think they need a v2 on the software part (may be hardware too) in order to get a better developer experience that would involve a larger community. My rule of thumb: if you start hacking a project to do regular stuff then later, you won't be able to do hack for disruptives ideas.
@@JeanPhilippeEncausse They're continually working on the software, it just takes time because they don't have money to hire up and throw bodies at it. They're a small company, recently described as about 25 people total across all departments. They had hoped in summer 2022 for the major update v1.3 - adding the last of the promised major features - to take 3 months. In the end it ran into problems like working around GPU driver bugs and took 6-8 months, releasing in late January. They since released 2 minor updates, one of them last week. They're targeting the next major update v1.4 - improving features in ways that need breaking changes - for late April. Hopefully 1.3 was a unique megaslip because of the outside factors it touched. Previous releases were within a month or two of timeline.
Unfortunately the images shown are not real but composited. You can tell because the images are above the board, I assume the black border can’t bounce the light back.
Skepticism about composited footage is reasonable. But. 1. There are physical through-the-lens shots taken by Chan at 8:58 - 9:18 10:24 - 10:53 11:03 - 11:19 2. There's been lots of TTL footage of this system and its predecessor over the ten years they've been trying to make it, including plenty not controlled by the manufacturer(s). Currently the greatest quantity and quality is arguably ruclips.net/user/p00ky76videos 3. MixCast don't want to calculate a fully accurate culling volume with every frame. Their rectangular prism culling volume is a truthful approximation of the volume a user in a reasonable position can see, except at the farthest edge of the board from the user where render height goes to zero - or to the height of the 'kickstand' portion in the configuration which tips it up. 4. 19:59 "One of the things they did work hard at is finding a way for gamers to stream that experience, 'cause AR, as immersive as it is, can be kind of isolating because people in the outside world have no idea what you're looking at. They can look at a flat-screen representation on your computer screen, but aside from wearing glasses, it's hard to see what AR is _about_. *MixCast is a company and a system that now works with Tilt Five. It's actually what I'm using to show a simulated view of what the Tilt Five experience looks like.* And, a system that works actually really well; I have a camera set up looking over my shoulder where it can see the tracking markers and then I tell the system I'm using Tilt Five glasses, it actually recognized the tracking markers. And games that support MixCast and Tilt Five then have a perspective that's oriented correctly over this calibrated camera view, which is how you can see these holograms on top of the game surface as I'm playing the game right now. But trust me, the games in 3D, in stereo, look even more immersive although the resolution I think is a little misleading 'cause it looks sharp to you on the screen and like I said that 720p projector's a little bit more fuzzy and aliased in headset."
@@HypoceeYT Good comment, I think the idea is great. I worked on 3D without glasses many years ago, the marketing department did the same thing, presenting photo’s that where compositet. 😬Chan is clear about how he recorded the footage.
I was looking at getting an arcade cabinet table for my living room, but as a dedicated VR geek, I think this is a little more apropos for me. My gaming laptop isn't getting much use anyways, so it can sit under the table and run this just fine as my party game furniture. Beats everyone sitting around playing Smash Bros on Switches. In fact, I'm surprised Nintendo isn't trying to acquire them, this is more on brand for them vs. doing VR like Sony.
1. Yes, you can use a hub, people do it routinely. 2. Usually yeah , more or less. To expand on 2, the first step depends on the bandwidth of the port (and hub, and cables). If you have a 10 or 20gbps chain, then completely yes. Worst case, if you're splitting a 5gbps port between two sets, then there isn't enough bandwidth. The video stream is the large majority of the data going up the wire, and it's not compressed. Simple arithmetic works out to 2.65gbps - slightly more than half, so there isn't enough for two. That's excluding other signals and overheads. So, you'd get choked bandwidth leading to some dropped frames. However, for most multiplayer games T5 is aimed at, even that sort of doesn't matter. There are probably some laptops which on some 3D games can crank out 180 or 240fps, but realistically you're going to be more render limited. And the onboard always-on 180Hz reprojection is designed to keep things smooth with dropped frames, regardless of the cause. You shouldn't envision playing air hockey with this, or some super twitchy technical Super Smash Bros Melee equivalent, but Mario Party or 3D World equivalents and arcade games are fine, and strategy games, boardgames, and RPGs just don't care.
Mirroring doesn't "render" multiple times, it's just an output copy which is generally instant and almost using no resources however depending on some setups, that copy could take a bit more resources if it has to go across different gpus etc..considering this isn't using DP, that likely means it "acts" as its own gpu display output meaning there could be some issues there (something like rendered on internal gpu/dgpu, copied to usb gpu, copied back to internal for mirroring) .. same kinda things you might see with a USB monitor or USB to hdmi kind of thing
Maybe I'm not understanding. What is the benefit to this vs traditional AR where one would use a large tracking pad and a camera enabled headset? Here, the game board is reflecting projected light back to the display, opposed to having a software impose the image on a tracking square. Why is this better?
- Light weight. - Brightness. So bright it can "draw black" which is proverbially impossible in optical AR. - (Not mentioned in this video, but in others) Lack of "Vergence-Accommodation Conflict" present in all previous and forecast devices whether optical or passthrough. Attendant comfort and possibly safety. - Field of view (Yes, it's limited in practice by the board and some pixels are typically wasted outside it. But they're free to choose their FOV unlike other techs, and they chose this balance carefully years ago.) It's about being able to look around a bit instead of having to keep your head riveted to a thing if you want it to not disappear. - World-first framebuffer reprojection decouples the frame rate, allowing comfortable use of low-power hosts or multiple sets on one stronger host. - Huge "eyebox", eliminating IPD and other adjustments, and distortions from near-eye lens effects. - Vision of the real world incomparable to any passthrough-based device and many optical ones. - Eyeglasses compatibility - Price parity in the first 10K units of the first product generation, sold at a profit, from a company of ~25 people, versus the cheapest fourth-ish generation device heavily subsidized by a gigacorp that burns billions a quarter. 1/10 to 1/5 the price of other optical AR. - Also has drawbacks, but openness. SDK is free for all to download, driver is hosted on Windows and soon Android and Linux. T5 can't stop you from doing what you want with your software. No platform with a custom OS, weird hardware architecture, or setting up an account and begging to be allowed to publish your thing. - Just plain looks good. Critics/journalists like Chan, Ang, Guttag, Hamilton, who get to try all these 4- and 5-digit devices and some of whom went in skeptics thinking Ellsworth was bullshitting, regularly come out calling it "the best ___ I've ever seen."
6:20 К сожалению просто краски не достаточно. Данная технология с напылением микроскопических капелек стекла. Только они могут отражать свет в том направлении, откуда он пришел.
i really like your shirt, it would be cool to have one that looks like a road map of silicon valley with all the tech companies are end points on the circuit.
Norm, that's cooling "fan", singular. The other grille is just a passive exhaust port. Also, you may be seeing the black bar cutoff at the top because you didn't change your board type in the driver configuration utility. Maybe in the future Tilt Five could make this change automatic by having the glasses scan a code printed on the board itself (possibly with invisible IR-absorbing ink!). The new v1.3.0 driver does allow for dual controllers and headsets now, so maybe more natural pinch-zoom gestures will be possible in the future? That Beat Saber mod already works with one controller. It would be trivial to support a second one for the full experience. In the meantime, you can just hold down some other button and physically move your wand closer or further away from the board to achieve the same thing. You can even rotate simultaneously while doing this because the controller incorporates an IMU.
No, they dropped that function even early in CastAR. It made some sense in 2013-2014 when the Oculus Rift was just a development kit, but today it would just be a Rokid or nReal but inferior in every way.
Cool yes - but dosn't it defeat the object of AR if its essentially projecting onto a screen? Its more like a clever 3d display than AR at this point. You're still tethered to the 'game board' 'display' thing
It does, it really focuses on the days (and they still exist) of people gaming together around a table. It's still AR, in the sense that it augments the world you see through the glasses.
Android support is promised, so that'll take away the tethering feel, since the computer will be in your pocket and you can walk around the board. (As long as you keep the right dots in view.) But yes, you're projecting onto a screen called a board. It works well though, and the boards, (the cheapest part of it) will get bigger and better fast, I think. And I'm sure much more use cases for it will be found than just tabletop gaming.
Konami should pay attention to this. Since it would be amazing for Yu-Gi-Oh since the show has had holograms for years and fans have wanted the monsters to fight
It uses a lot of space, but much less space than standard VR for sure. Maybe if mounted vertically it could be used a like an alternative to a monitor or TV if you dont have the space for a screen and still give you a 3D effect. The price is a little hard for 30 some odd games, but with time I could see the price drop and the tech improve and a lot potential in playing games besides those made for it. I was reminded of the VR game Moss where you are assisting a character remotely, you could probably map a lot of that interactivity to the wand controller. Also the old PS3 game, Eye of Judgment, that used AR cards and PSeye camera. Wouldn't mind being able to repurpose my cards.
Fortunately for us, vertical orientation tracking was just added to the latest version of the driver, so new game play styles might be in our future. The only drawback being that the 720p resolution really hurts clarity much further "into" the board than the comfortable sweet spot.
It is neat and all and huge props to Jerri for all her work on them but I can't stand the idea of using the matt with the fold lines being so visible like that. I would have to create my own custom smooth larger board if I owned 1.
A guy going by Dragon Magic Studio has set up a side business manufacturing seamless and rollable T5 mats. Not linking because of YT banbots, but the store is searchable.
Interesting product, like to see this evolve. Can be a good alternative to current VR experiences, especially with four people around the board all playing in the same world. I don't see space as a problem since a normal VR headset has the person using that much or more floor space. The price isn't bad considering the cost of some VR headsets.
That's pretty awesome for social gaming. I could see myself building a gaming table with usb connectivity to a laptop where a DM could control the overall experience. Or have gamers on their phones even controlling their experience. The price is too much but I can see how this tech can lower it's price point with modern mass manufacturing
In theory. A couple users have done it in Unity. However, they hard baked the video data into the projects. Setting up an application that can play the various, often proprietary and encrypted, file formats, for a marginally relevant medium, is a patent/licensing minefield for little visible potential gain. It's hard to imagine a good tool being made. Someday I hope to pick a bit at like a VLC plugin, where the fancy work would be already done upstream.
They definitely will if the first one sells well. All they really need to upgrade is the glasses, so they would support 4k. I think it's meaningless to go above that. Despite what people say, there is a limit where human eyes cannot tell the difference anymore regarding graphics. I personally believe that 4k 120 FPS is the last highmark games can reach. After that everything begins to be meaningless waste of resources that would be more useful in something like A.I development.
I love AR and this is amazing! But the main thing that really excites me is when these come down in price and I can pick up 4 to have for parties or game nights. Seems like even non-gamers could pick this up without an issue! So much fun to be had :D Just need some amogus.
A lot of the footage is faked right? Like at 13:17 there's an image displayed well off the retroreflective surface, and the blacks are darker than the uniluminated parts of the surface.
Chan chose to use the compositing software MixCast for most of his shots for convenience, and said so in the video. 19:59 "One of the things they did work hard at is finding a way for gamers to stream that experience, 'cause AR, as immersive as it is, can be kind of isolating because people in the outside world have no idea what you're looking at. They can look at a flat-screen representation on your computer screen, but aside from wearing glasses, it's hard to see what AR is _about_. MixCast is a company and a system that now works with Tilt Five. It's actually what I'm using to show a simulated view of what the Tilt Five experience looks like. And, a system that works actually really well; I have a camera set up looking over my shoulder where it can see the tracking markers and then I tell the system I'm using Tilt Five glasses, it actually recognized the tracking markers. And games that support MixCast and Tilt Five then have a perspective that's oriented correctly over this calibrated camera view, which is how you can see these holograms on top of the game surface as I'm playing the game right now. But trust me, the games in 3D, in stereo, look even more immersive although the resolution I think is a little misleading 'cause it looks sharp to you on the screen and like I said that 720p projector's a little bit more fuzzy and aliased in headset." T5 has chosen to work with MC because the core appeal of the tech is that things are 3D, and nobody's found a way to communicate that in a 2D picture or video without drawing stuff above the board. You'll see comments on this very video from people who have apparently never used a VR headset or seen a 3D movie, insisting that because there's a flat surface somewhere in the system the image can't possibly appear to be 3D. The height of MC's clipping box is carefully chosen to honestly represent the height above the center of the board that a user can see in a typical setup. There are physical through-the-lens shots visibly taken by Chan on the same setup at 8:58 - 9:18 10:24 - 10:53 11:03 - 11:19 The system is so bright that it is able to draw black areas by contrast with lighted ones. In use, unprojected areas of the mat appear black, not grey, but they can magically appear to be darker than something in the environment that's the same grey without the projection on.
I've had mine for months and it's a great piece of kit. Needs more software though. The one issue imo is the sound from the glasses, it's pretty bad. It's not a problem really as you can use headphones or your pc speakers, a little surprised it wasn't mentioned though.
It's designed to fit over glasses, yes. There's supposed to be a nosepiece designed to be good for that, but the alternate nosepieces hit manufacturing problems and haven't appeared.
Yes, two have. They've partnered from the start with Tabletopia, one of the two big licensed Web boardgame providers. TT updated their Steam client to work with T5 in early 2022. It's a bit functional and bare and has major limitations: Only plays with other Steam clients with a manually implemented 109-game subset of TT's library of thousands. TT also, as a matter of philosophy, leaves all rule interpretation up to players. It performs no automation or tracking of anything (although setup may be the exception, I think I read a guide to setting up a first turn). Then there's Asmodee, the megapublisher that's bought up every boardgame company that isn't Parker Brothers. In 2020 its digital side essentially quit in-house development, turning to licensing out games to studios. Two T5-exclusive adaptations of Asmodee games are announced. Takenoko released a few days ago and Settlers of Catan is coming later this spring, both developed by studio Blazing Griffin. Everybody involved hopes Blazing Griffin will establish an easy, profitable production pipeline and work their way up to things like Gloomhaven which are great but sort of a pain to actually play. Asmodee also now owns Boardgame Arena, the other online boardgame platform. The dream is that they would rig a good T5 client for that, even though the graphics would be 2D on the table. It all depends on a few different money situations. BGA can automate stuff if creators put in the work, although how much of it actually gets programmed and how much is correct, who's to say.
so originally they showed this working with RPG gamers like DandD so individuals could connect live in three d and get a game group .Seemed ideal to me, but it looks like its really not there yet?
They partnered with Fantasy Grounds at the time, who had bought up Tabletop Connect and were going to make a 3D version of their software. Fantasy Grounds subsequently backed out of doing 3D at all.
I was always imagining this as a party game type of thing, until you mentioned each pair of glasses needs a PC attached to it. Buying this kit and adding 4 gaming laptops or whatever into the mix is out of reach for what I would've used it for.
They have always intended to run multiple glasses off one computer, and released the first driver and SDK providing that function in January. Chan's saying the _software_ he used needed a computer per user. At the time he made this review, only three titles supported multiset and he only knew of two. One more has since updated literally today. T5 have talked about efforts to get their existing dev partners to go back and add multiset, but it's likely to be mostly new titles that implement it while they're adding support in the first place.
I was a Kickstarter backer for Tilt Five and unfortunately, given all of the delays and issues out of the box, I can't say I played it for more than a day after I got it and haven't picked it back up since... It didn't work out of the box for me, the USB-C to A adapter it came with didn't work, luckily I had my own adapter that finally worked. Also, I could not find any USB cable extender that worked, so I am forced to basically sit on the floor next to my Desktop PC to play the games....that's probably why I never really went back to it after a day of playing, who wants to play on the floor? I'm sure if I invested some time I can find workarounds for these issues, but 6 months ago when I received my table there were no workarounds I could find. Maybe things have changed a bit since I last looked, I really want to get excited about Tilt Five again
The inventor/leader of the tech is a big pinball nerd, and already working in her "spare" time on hooking it up to Visual Pinball Engine. A fan/developer - the same guy who set up manufacturing of the seamless/rollable boards Chan mentioned - is also making a couple games for it. One of them, Gooper Cooper, is a Pac-Man. Traincraft is also available for free on T5's "The Lab". It's a tough, brain-bending mashup of "The Train Game", Snake, and Pac-Man.
I love the concept, especially in relation to it's potential use for 3D pinball at some point in the future. I do feel that the image appearing outside of the reflective screen area at ruclips.net/video/DbjjCn1zJq8/видео.html is a little misleading and guessing this is not actually possible when viewed through the glasses. Is this some form of other capture method that the software supports purely for gameplay recording, based on overlaying the 3D image over the top of what the camera sees (in relation to the play surface)? Somewhat similar to how Quest 2 allows you to record augmented reality videos with an iPhone? Edit: Seems this is discussed at about 20 minutes into the video (they are using Mixcast) ruclips.net/video/DbjjCn1zJq8/видео.html
Perspective's been around 500 years or so and drawing a thing over a background is still the only way we have to communicate "it's 3D" in a 2D image or video. in all T5's composited shots and Chan's Mixcast footage here, Mixcast's chosen render volume is a good approximation of the volume _the person depicted using the system_ can see. T5 has a couple other niche features but comfy, non-blinded stereo 3D is _the_ reason somebody would buy and wear this device. Mixcast could cut off the projection as if the camera was physically wearing a set of the glasses, but that's arguably misleading in the other direction and unfairly not communicating the thing it does. On every video about T5, including this one, there are some comments by people who don't understand stereoscopic vision and have apparently never heard of a theater, 3DTV, or Magic Eye; they insist that because a flat surface is involved there's no way objects could appear to be above the board where you can "touch" them. How many more people would fail to understand the tech if Mixcast didn't render things where the user sees them? This video contains physical through-the-lens shots taken by Chan at 8:58 - 9:18 10:24 - 10:53 11:03 - 11:19
@@HypoceeYT Yeah I understand how 3D works including the ability to show objects in front of the screen/surface. My particular interest is 3D pinball having a reasonable level of experience with using Reshade/Superdepth3D (I wrote a superdepth3D/VPX tutorial at VPForums a year or so back). I've also been following the VPE developments and their interaction with T5 a while back, some great stuff ahead for us pinheads. I completely understand that objects can appear "above the board" but they cannot appear outside of the line of sight of the board edges with the T5 tech, only by way of Mixcast to show an approximation from a different angle to the original viewer. This is where I feel the video is a little misleading without immediate explanation. The through the lens shots are not shown until quite some time later in the video. I feel like the Mixcast explanation should have been included early in the video with the first use of Mixcast, rather than 20 minutes in. I also note that they mention Mixcast in the notes which is good, but I didn't notice that until after I watched the video. Regarding "Mixcast's chosen render volume", I feel like the users eye level would need to be quite high above the gaming surface in order to mimic the volume that Mixcast is showing. It would be good to see a real-time side by side comparison, through the lens vs mixcast. All that aside, I really do hope the T5 tech gets more traction, Jeri's story is pretty amazing and she is certainly someone I'd love to chat with if I ever got the chance. Lastly, I wonder if the T5 team have investigated using solid state fan tech, rather than traditional mechanical fans. ruclips.net/video/YGxTnGEAx3E/видео.html
Nope. They're picking away and apparently got it _working_ internally on the one Mac user's machine, but jumping through all Apple's cert hoops is going to take a lot of work at low priority. There's been one side remark about "maybe late this year" but that's probably absolute best case. Also, unlike MS, Linux, and Google's open application systems, there's a decent chance Apple could straight up deny them entry to their walled garden for not being sexy enough for the brand and having zero billion dollars to bribe their way in.
One potential issue I can see with using this is bad posture since you have to look down to use it. I imagine people would be getting neck pain after a while.
Ellsworth, the inventor/CEO/speaker, is a pinball nut and collector, and has prototyped that. The lead developer of VPE dropped by the Discord at one point too. They say that things are slowly happening on this front.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Hopefully they'll make it compatible with CAD. This could be really cool in the interior design, cabinet, remodel, and architecture worlds
You would need hand tracking and maybe voice commands I think and it would need to be fast. Like almost no leniency.
If you are making a part or designing a home you want a tool that makes it faster not slower
@@answeris4217 I don't necessarily mean using it to design in CAD. I mean using it to display CAD models and make minor adjustments like changing a cabinet, blinds, wall paint etc. style or color, like a 3D demonstration for the final product or viewing your model in a 3D space. This could be useful for clients that are distant or even a team being able to view it together for added perspective. It's already something you can do with some VR headsets, I just like the format this is in with the pad and see through AR instead of VR .
@@luckyleprechaun420 most of the time when choosing cabinets and wall treatments a CAD isn't the tool for that. It's better to go see a sample of the actual treatment or cabinet.
A CAD is great for layouts and general staging and creating plans. Like I build furniture and it allows me to show the basic shape and show me the joinery locations and weird angles that are hard to find on a drawing.
It can't show how it looks with the wood. Like my avatar is something I will show to a client
@@luckyleprechaun420 if a client wants changes to my design then I need a fully operational CAD program.
I'm so excited for this, I have my backer unit that I purchased solely on hope that supporting the platform will make tabletop ar 3d models possible. Stl, ply obj please!
T5 fan here. Great review. You crammed a lot of hard-to-communicate info in, and your opinions and suggestions are, as I expected, very fair and well argued.
Some factual corrections for people who read RUclips comments(?):
The square LE board has been offered for sale separately for a few days (probably after this was filmed), but the board included with new kits is the XE shown in the video, rectangular with the extra bit on the back.
You can extend the active area with silver retroreflective fabric, but not with RR paint or beads. RR paint does the same thing as silver fabric, but much less efficiently, and it would be too dim to be worth it.
The glasses transmit about 40% of the light from the real world, just the same as a set of polarized sunglasses or theater polarizer glasses. No polarizer can theoretically pass more than 50% of unpolarized light, and real ones absorb another 10% in practice. The 85% number (or 15% loss) that T5 talks about is the amount of *light sent out* that passes back through the lens. This is by contrast with other optical AR systems that struggle for brightness because they have to pump out and throw away 80-90% of their light in their optics chain.
There is absolutely a significant limit to the vertical FOV, but the cutoff you discussed, at the top particularly, can be an artifact of bad vertical position and angling due to the single default nosepiece supplied. Now that doesn't actually help you solve your problem; they ran into manufacturing difficulties molding the nosepiece variety pack in summer 2022 and there's been no serious word since then. You shouldn't have to, but you could bust out some Sugru...
Hey T5 fan, love your work, but could you spin a bit more quietly?
@@gmsrki Sorry no can do, too small and genkiiii
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@@gmsrki If you can find a quieter DC axial fan at that same size, I'm sure Tilt Five would love to hear from you. I've looked myself to no avail. Then again, maybe they could have gone with a different solution to move air around like Frore Systems' AirJet or Mide Technology's Piezoflo. Either of them would likely be quieter and less prone to breakage.
Jerry Ellsworth is a brilliant engineer and she's always created amazing UI.
Good review.
Imagine a tabletop that is 6x6 feet. That would be so cool
As long as the glasses see the tracking dots you can lay out as much material as you like. I've mainly done it as a back wall to add height. I have a few videos on my channel about it.
Maybe 3x6 or 2x5. Closer to the size of a kitchen table. There's no electronics on the board itself so people could eat and drink while gaming
@@answeris4217, people’d be losing their food and frontals though.
@@annyone3293 Is that a complaint with these??
This isn't like a VR headset where you are closed off from the world
This would be perfect for virtual pinball tables. Also imagine a cockpit setup with retrorelfective sheets instead of windows.... you can see all your controls with your actual eyes. no passthrough required.
An AR pinball or arcade place where you just bring a headset to plug into whatever you want to play would be cool!
I need someone to develop this
Ellsworth, the inventor and cofounder/CEO of the company, is a huge pinball fan and collector. She's tried hooking it up to VPE, the underway Unity port of Visual Pinball. Last word is she hit a weird problem where the projects compiled but physics didn't work. The lead developer of VPE dropped into the Discord and offered to help. Hopefully stuff's cranking away behind the scenes as people have time!
I don't know if I can say this... But I work on one of the games he show... So happy to see my work out in the wild
Well done, hope you mask your IP. People just sent this to head office.
@@X22GJP 👁👄👁
As a backer of the original castAR, really great to see this come to market. I'll be getting two.
I bought one to start out with, but now that the driver finally supports local multi-player, I'm gonna get a second one as well 😆
Norm needs his own channel, love the tech side of this channel!
I'm glad to see you giving a very honest review.
I have the Tilt Five (with the extended board).
The other negative which you didn't mention, is that because the board folds up, you get thin black lines, where the projected image can't reflect. In most games it's not an issue, but in some - for me Figmin - the act of focusing your eyes makes those black lines cross over. I find it very distracting.
But you have to take it for what it was invented for. That's sitting with friends around a table.
I thought the speakers were terrible, but then I thought "you need to be able to speak to people beside you".
There is definitely a sweet spot to getting the image very bright and very sharp. You have to sit pretty close to the board.
The images are sometimes jerky, but T5 are releasing new drivers, and they're working on it all the time.
Gabe Newell released a video saying "it's far more compelling than I thought it would be" and he's contacted developers for it.
So at this stage, it's up to us - the users - to support what is a very small team, with limited resources and a very tight budget.
What I've noticed about Tilt Five, is that every time I go back to it, I like it that little bit more.
It's cute and good fun.
It's a bit more of a gentle gaming experience.....
I like your idea of not having to use the PC when you first turn it on. But you know? How lazy are we going to be? You can see your entire environment perfectly clearly, so just look at your pc and launch a game.
And "setting the board up" - it's designed to be an experience for "game night", it takes roughly 10 seconds to unfold the board.
But I'm a lazy person, so I shamefully agree with you.
It is early days with it. But they've done so well to get it this far. It's taken a very intelligent person, 12 years to work out. She's created the technology to do it.
It is the first of its kind.
So I think even though it's not currently what everybody would like (Jeri included) the only way we have what we do want, is to keep supporting her.
It's been a number of important steps, she's finally been able to get the units produced and shipped, so now it's the time to concentrate on improving stability and performance, software, features - all that.
Well done for telling the truth, even though some of those truths aren't easy to say, towards a friend.
............
Like I said, what I come away with, is that the more I play on it, the more I like it.
My favourite game is the zombie demo. I like how close the exploded zombies fly up towards your face 😁
Comfort is tricky for me, but that's because I wear glasses and have a little nose.
As for the price, I think considering that it's a small team that's not going to sell millions of them, it's a good price.
I want a board that's rolled up, so I can get rid of the lines - even though the build quality of the board, is lovely.
In fact the quality all round is really nice. Really nice design, lovely box, nice feeling sturdy plastic on the headset and the wand. I've hit the board a few times, but the wand still stands ☺️
The buttons are a bit crap, but they're more than good enough for the job.
The speakers are crap, but like I said after thinking about it, they're perfect for interacting with those around you (not her fault I don't have anybody). A headphone jack would have been good, but she's had a vision and that was to play with people beside you).
The fans are too loud, but I agree with you that in game they don't bother you.
It's a different monster.
That's what I'm saying. You have to like it for what it is. And as I say, every time I play it, I like it that little bit more.
Early days, but let's support Tilt Five.
I got DMS' TPU rollable boards in LE and XE sizes. They're fantastic! You should totally get a pair for yourself 😁
This is the best AR concept I've ever seen. It works because it knows itself. Jeri owns the future of AR.
For most use there is typically very little noticeable warping error. Only when the player's head translates in a sudden and unpredictable manner should an uncorrected warp error get introduced. There's a lot going on to ensure that the image remains registered and correct. The warping algorithm uses the tabletop plane equation as the depth function to reproject the image during the optical correction. Anything rendered that is above or below the plane, has a depth difference from the plane of the table that can introduce a warp error due to the parallax term arising from the height off the table and the difference between the tracked predicted view position and the correct eye position. In practice what this means is that during sudden head movements (translations not rotations) tall 3D objects can be seen to skew slightly off the vertical. Last I checked the prediction of future head poses was not finalized and this was the main tool left to mitigate this. Pixel level reprojection would be the next level solution however that requires more processing and has its own challenging artifacts (e.g. exposed de-occluded pixels behind silhouettes that need to be hallucinated or pulled from other frames). Many systems try this or some variation of it with questionable results. It's one of those frontier problems where lots of compute resources can be spent chasing diminishing returns and perhaps even make things worse before they get better depending on the tradeoffs made and the real-time power & compute resources available.
I'd love to see it compatible with game consoles. Especially the Nintendo Switch. If you could just plug it directly into the switch, or even better use a hub to plug multiple gasses into a switch then just play all or at least a large portion of their games would be awesome. A partnership with Nintendo or even PlayStation and XBox would really give TiltFive a great boost in the right direction.
I'm loving mine so far. There is great potential for them. They just have to harness it.
Would love to get this but they really need to nail down the multi-player aspect. I can't justify buying this for just a couple of single player marble games etc. If they had full multi-player support for games, especially D&D type games, I would buy this in a heartbeat.
It's coming
So keep bugging the Demeo team 😏
I'm a Kickstarter backer. I really like the system - so much impressive tech and hard work in there. It's very fun and novel but I haven't yet seen the really compelling apps to make it worth the setup a few days a week yet. Right now I set it up on the weekends once in a while and to show friends. But it's positioned well for that ultimate board gaming experience. I'm excited about Catan and I think perhaps a comprehensive multi-player D&D solution that really works where DMs can offer paid experiences or friend groups can regularly gather might be a great fit here. Anyway, I think it's getting there and Jerry and her team did a great job.
This is the type of comment I have been looking for for this system. Thanks! Hope it continues to evolve!
This seems like a great idea...10 years ago. LIke the bar for AR is much higher than just being restricted to a table. I hope they can fold all their R&D into a newer generation with less limitations. You can tell they put a lot of passion and love into this product.
@@baysidejrit has a camera for hand tracking. Just no supported titles yet as it was just released in a recent SDK to developers 😊
@@baysidejr That's a perfectly reasonable feeling! He reaches pretty much that conclusion at the end, and though I am such an enthusiast, that doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to be. They're trying to chart a path through the market to a generation of software and hardware that can attract a general audience.
It's for tabletop gamers basically and for that specific niche, this is great
You are essentially saying that the oculus rift would have been a great idea in 2006, and it's true!
Do you remember why 2016 was a better year for release? There were so many reasons, and I know just as many reasons why this needs to be out there before your dream glasses will become reality.
Sorry Zack but it seems like you’re completely missing the point!
I’ve been following the development of this for a few years. Jeri is a genius for sure and I’m buying this at the weekend; thanks Norm.
Thank you for your review. Because of this video I’ve taken a closer look at the device and am quite impressed. I appreciate your work.
This combined with CAD/3D Modeling/Sculpting with hand gesture recogition would be amazing. PS also a full room with fileted corners & covered with retroreflective paint.
This. I don't know how to use Blender virtually at all, but I could see 3D object sculpting to be really effective cause of the depth with good control scheme.
This is super cool. An all-in-one HMD gaming system doesn't have to be the only way to do things. The fact that it can run on lower spec computers is a huge boon for the average person who can't afford a so-called “gaming PC” but who still want to play cool, fun, 3D games with whatever hardware they currently use. I could also see this being used at multi-genre sci-fi/gaming conventions such as Dragon Con as well as gaming stores that sell comic books or table-top games. You ought to try this out while also wearing ChromaDepth 3D glasses under the Tilt Five but over your own glasses. They pull warm colors (red, orange, yellow) to the foreground, making them appear to float off the image into real space. Green serves as a neutral middle ground color. Blue, indigo, violet are cool colors that get pushed into the background. This makes those colors look like they are deep below the image where you could reach into the display or whatever the carrier medium is to scoop up objects.
These are so versatile.
1 AR DnD or any tabletop game with friends
2 AR presentation of any type that involves 3D anything, just put the screen on the wall
3 See virtual art pieces in a museum or art gallery
4 AR museum guides
5 In theater you could make the audience wear these to show CGI stuff, CGI in theater is possible with these!!!
6 in schools for like everything, virtual dissections finally
etc
just from the top of my head, anyone else have other ideas?
Once there’s a good selection of board games with network support-so that we can have two players in one house and two others in another in a different city-and Mac or iPad support, I’ll be sold.
Heck yeah! Definitely want to pick this up soon. Thanks for sharing.
This has been so long in the making. I remember watching the first previews while holding my new born daughter thinking that she might never play a physical board game. I really hope that they can do some work to bring the initial cost down; it's a little steep at the moment, especially with the fairly limited catalog.
As opposed to an old born daughter?
The simplest solution to that problem is to get a physical board game and play it with her.
@@X22GJP Um ya... She is 9 now should I still call her my newborn?
@@CDRaff 9 is a little bit past newborn phase no offense
Using this to display 3d scans like with Polycam would be an awesome use case. Displaying 3D videos or possibly working with insta360 cameras somehow would be another. The virtual pinball community could have a field day with this too.
Ever since i first saw this product on Tested a while back, I've been wondering if this tech would work well in simulators and cockpits. Rather than finding a way to install and incorporate monitors or conventional projectors, could you just have the "windows" in aircraft, or the "displays" in mechs be that reflective material with tracking markers and essentially have 360 degree wrapped "displays" if desired, without actually having to have "displays" at all. Just that material and it's tracking markers incorporated into the interior of simulators, with the occupants wearing those headsets.
Yup! They actually prototyped that on real Navy aircraft way back at the start of the predecessor CastAR, just throwing fabric over the windows. I want to build a couple stowable, economical simpits with it.
The tech does have a couple drawbacks to be aware of:
It needs to see a board edge with its single fisheye camera to track, so there's no turning your head more than maybe 60-70 degrees - so no fighter jet dogfighting.
The resolution isn't great for instrument panels, same as most VR headsets - pixels work out to about 1mm/meter distance on a side.
But still, I think it's an enabling technology for the field.
@@HypoceeYT Fascinating. I'd bet the field of view for tracking is something future generations of the tech can develop further. Agreed it wouldn't be great for instrument panels, but I think practical / physical panels are more fun in simpits anyway. I'm mostly just thinking of the windows or screens through which the pilot sees the world outside the vehicle. Cool to hear this isn't such a far fetched application. :)
They need to accelerate the development of this into a local tabletop game hub. Single player AR is cool, but what's great is multiplayer AR with each player seeing their private cards/stash in hand while sharing a common table, just like a physical board game. This is what's unique about the tech - each player having their own private view - over say tablet gaming where everything's seen by everyone always.
What a fair and balanced review!
22:41 that's actually the BEST USE CASE right now!!! It would be a great Multiplayer experience to have that.
I feel like two player experiences is where this would shine for like animated board games but at about $360 per headset this seems like a lot. Don't see this taking off til they can get like a two pack down to around $400-500.
True, but it is a small company without a big users base, that alone makes it more expensive.
@@VincentGroenewold that's why kick starter... you hope you asked for enough to do the big production
Tilt Five is truly amazing. Great to see it covered by Tested.
I went to the site last year to make the purchase--but the games I want just aren't there. RPGs, even turn based action games (loving Midnight Suns right now) are what I want.
I do worry about the effect of the system on our eyes over time. People have had their hearing damaged by in ear headphones and I'd hate to see a similar trend happening with eyes as AR/VR really take off. Looks like these are very safe in terms of light level, but time will tell.
Can finally play that chess game thing they play on the Millenium Falcon in Star Wars.
Norm, I was really hoping you'd talk about some of the original castAR-type uses and whether they still work. Such as using the glasses and game board as a TV/monitor to watch things and play normal 2D games. Can you display your computer desktop on it? Etc. For instance, it'd be cool to have a miniature version of the game board that you could take on a plane with you, to use as a screen to watch things without bothering anyone else (or them seeing what you're watching). But I don't actually know if any of this is possible, or not.
"Tom" elsewhere in the comments has whipped up a desktop streaming tool ruclips.net/video/0Y2c_JHiL3c/видео.html , and T5 has put an experimental tool in the SDK that lets you use different sized/oriented boards without applications knowing about it. You could combine those to pull off that scenario. Mind you, though I'm a fan of the tech, I don't think it would be worth the work.
@@HypoceeYT It appears he responded to me earlier, and then deleted his comment. Odd. But, thanks for the link. Very cool.
@@KyoshoLP A certain platform around here absolutely loves to shadow can, so to speak, helpful, unique, informative...comets...while allowing 300 identical ones a second from 10-minute-old accounts. Typically about 1/3 of mine, with tone like my reply to you, stick around. I think the robots are leaving me alone here because I got some up thumbs. I'd guess his reply was turned to vapor by that party without his knowledge.
it is hard to know what you mean by the image being fuzzy.. I am wodering if that would mean that they would be in adequate for displaying 3d (stereoscopic movies?
A couple people have rigged 3D movie playback and said it looked good. (That said, for legal reasons there's unlikely to ever be software released to play them.) The fuzziness makes the system ill-suited to games with small text and icons.
@@HypoceeYT what legal reasons?
@@manp1039 You need to pay a megacorp (in practice, overwhelmingly the MPEG Licensing Administration) a license fee to distribute software that uses its software patents, even if you make no money.
VLC gets around this by being legally based in France where software patents are not a thing. Other free media player programs must have other tricks. But the risk of getting your legal bullshit wrong and getting crushed like a bug is a pretty real disincentive to just throwing together a toy to watch a niche format on a niche device. I myself low-key want to _piggyback_ off VLC someday, but doing 3D manipulations and GUI on video streams is pretty advanced, and writing VLC plugins doesn't look particularly easy.
@@HypoceeYT i think you are wrong.. first of all.. all that need to be done is to port in RUclips to view stereoscopic videos, for example. What i have suggested does not necesarily mean creating a brand new media viewer.. can merely port in existing viewers. and to get stereoscopic view just need to pass the right and left eye accordingly from a side by side video.
I'm surprised that there isn't more focus on just standard board games... Surely that would be the biggest draw card for something like this over gaming. People spend time setting up board games to play for an hour or so and then pack them away.
"People don't get sick using those" - well... no. 3 out of 5 members of my family felt sick after 3-8 minutes (marbles demo). We tried couple of times across a month of owning this thing, and it keeps happening. Not sure of the cause. If I had to guess - the glasses often lose tracking and "skip" or jitter (my whole family use VR daily, we got the vr legs).
Every time you rotate your head like 15 degrees away from the board it looses tracking and the game view stops, skips, jitters, or disappears. You look back at the board and the picture appears, for example, upside down and then snaps back to place with some jittering. This is so annoying that after a few times nobody uses it, and - considering the low resolution and very "floaty" tracking - never will again, I think.
Since you specify having it for one month the answer is likely yes, but just checking that you were using driver 1.3.0 or later (released January 20) and software compiled with a 1.3.x SDK. The wobbling problem was a known issue as they entered development hell on 1.3, which eventually introduced pose prediction to greatly reduce it. 1.3 also made six months' worth of upgrades to the speed and stability of the tracking.
Now, 1.3 is only sort of retroactive - it applies a compromise pose prediction to earlier software that doesn't know to ask for the info. The only programs I know of that should have fully up-to-date tracking are 1.3's pack-in Marbles, Figmin XR, Icosi-do, Takenoko, and soon the Demo Pack, Battle Planet, and Battle Map Studio. That's a whole other but legitimate issue.
@@HypoceeYT I just gave it one more try. One thing is in plus in 1.3.2 - the image blurs out and fades away when you turn away from the board rather than strobe and jitter, which is an improvement.
But still... noisy fans, quite a lot of heat on your forehead, abysmal resolution (it's ok when you are 20cm from the board, but if you are 50cm away (most of the time) it's like the old Oculus DK1. Btw. in Unity SDK you can limit the FOV to get the resolution better - but... well, you have low FOV then. Like in Magic Leap (which I also have, just to note I know what I'm talking about).
The AR still floats. It's not like the holograms are a part of your world, glued to your board, like, for example, in AR games on your smartphone. It's more like the board is a portal to a completely separate world, and the game world always "floats" +/-5cm when you move your head. It doesn't feel like the game is happening "on" the board, in your room. This is disappointing, I imagined the holograms will be more like "glued" to the board (not moving in relation to the board) - but they are not, they float quite a bit. Tracking is very sub-par in comparison to plain smartphone AR. Get a LEGO catalog and point your smartphone at it to see AR - the holograms are almost welded to the pages, the tracking is so good there.
Now, why did I have such expectations before buying this? Because it looks like it would work that way from the videos, even in this Tested video, when they use this mixcast thing. But in reality, it is much, much different.
@@Kubold I based my expectations on physical through-the-lens videos and photos that have been taken for ten years, most of them not under TI/T5's control. This video includes three physical shots, visibly shot by Chan on the same setup/table/room as the rest of the video. They're at
8:58 - 9:18
10:24 - 10:53
11:03 - 11:19
and the latter two are seemingly at a typical use height and distance. If you crank the video to high res, does the resolution and tracking match your experience?
Over the year or so T5's been shipping consumer units, I've seen six or seven people come through the Discord reporting badly miscalibrated projectors, which instead of being good out to "a few meters" as specced suddenly hit the end of their focal zone at 20-30cm. When people contact T5 support they generally stop reporting in the Discord, so I can't quite promise that yes this was the problem and doing an RMA got a unit without the problem. But it's sure suggestive to me that you report the same distance cutoff.
Bad focus wouldn't cause bad tracking, so if you got hit by two independent problems that's remarkable - but stranger things have happened? A different unit is unlikely to do anything about the fan noise, and probably not about heat either. At a stretch, some people have got units with bad heatsinking which made them flaky. It's _possible_ that bad thermal contact could be both raising the temperature of the heatsink/ejected air and making the Movidius chip just barely not cut out leading to your fragile and laggy tracking.
If you conclude you got a bad unit I hope you'll consider contacting support at tiltfive dot com with a report to start the RMA process. I've never heard of them turning one down.
(Some other TTL videos and a couple photos of what the projection should look like, mostly at 1XX cm distance. Sorry this will definitely get shaded if I actually make them chain.
youtube /user/p00ky76/videos
twitter /tiltfive/status/1403441015797600256
twitter /tacolamp/status/1423239634868310019
twitter /tacolamp/status/1394881752791846914
twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1627251782463401984 (obviously low res depth video, but check the sharp edges/corners on the particles)
twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1627095037921349633 (recent tracking example)
twitter /iBrews/status/1506887634412400645/photo/1
twitter /Taka_Yoshinaga/status/1626173140354359296/photo/2 )
I'm guessing it's not so sensitive to different IPD's (Inter-Pupillary Distance) as regular VR glasses?
Blimey, I remember when Jeri Ellsworth first talked about this tech 10 years ago!
Great review; I feel like I've got a complete idea of what this thing is like to use 👍
Kudos to Ms Ellsworth for persevering and finally getting this thing to market.
Could this run off a Steam Deck?
Users in the community have got it working by dual booting windows.
People have done so. Right now in practice there's some conflict with SteamOS' Proton compatibility layer, so it's required installing Windows on the Deck. The Deck by itself also can't quite pump enough juice out its USB port to run the T5, so they needed to use a powered USB hub or extension. But it's a good partner, and getting the driver working with SteamOS is a priority.
T5 hope to release their first public Linux driver Any Day Now, but that just affects the number of eyes on the problem. They've developed and tested their driver and software on Linux first from the start.
@@HypoceeYT Thanks, good to know
I think a mini drive in theater as a media player(kind of like Bigscreen VR) would be fun. You could watch a movie and have a bunch of tiny cars pulling in out of the drive-in.
Many thanks for this full review ! I have Tilt five in my radar for years waiting to have a review. I have 3 questions :
- How do you compare with a Smart Table ?
- How is the SDK ? Can you do easy ThreeJS without heavy coding on Unity?
- What about phygital: mixing dice and pawn with virtuality ?
The problem with Looking glass or TiltFive is the v2, v3 deprecate the v1 and it's not heaven hackable to do something ...
Always my feeling is it's cool then what can I do other than a Indy games ?
- Smart tables in general aren't 3D if that matters. Most can't show a unique view for each user. Viewing angles can be very bad depending on the panel tech. They're higher resolution than T5, better for text, tagging, and dense information. You don't generally want to slide physical things around on either. These days a smart table is probably cheaper than equipping a few people with T5. T5 can be easily extended with cheap fabric to a data bowl, bench, or other large volume.
- No. They're talking about getting OpenXR support into it someday, but even that is a layer or two removed from Three.js. In theory somebody could crank through and implement support using the so-called "Native Development Kit", but it would be a huge amount of work. Nobody in the fandom or at T5 is doing it.
- That's been a goal of the technology from the beginning. You could do it for a year now if you supplied your own camera and/or sensors. In January they released the first driver that provides the video feed from the onboard "tangible tracker" camera, which is intended for the purpose. Almost all projects will run it through OpenCV.
@@HypoceeYT Thanks ! Very inetresting, all the tech you describe make me really think they need a v2 on the software part (may be hardware too) in order to get a better developer experience that would involve a larger community.
My rule of thumb: if you start hacking a project to do regular stuff then later, you won't be able to do hack for disruptives ideas.
@@JeanPhilippeEncausse They're continually working on the software, it just takes time because they don't have money to hire up and throw bodies at it. They're a small company, recently described as about 25 people total across all departments.
They had hoped in summer 2022 for the major update v1.3 - adding the last of the promised major features - to take 3 months. In the end it ran into problems like working around GPU driver bugs and took 6-8 months, releasing in late January. They since released 2 minor updates, one of them last week. They're targeting the next major update v1.4 - improving features in ways that need breaking changes - for late April. Hopefully 1.3 was a unique megaslip because of the outside factors it touched. Previous releases were within a month or two of timeline.
Unfortunately the images shown are not real but composited. You can tell because the images are above the board, I assume the black border can’t bounce the light back.
Skepticism about composited footage is reasonable. But.
1. There are physical through-the-lens shots taken by Chan at
8:58 - 9:18
10:24 - 10:53
11:03 - 11:19
2. There's been lots of TTL footage of this system and its predecessor over the ten years they've been trying to make it, including plenty not controlled by the manufacturer(s). Currently the greatest quantity and quality is arguably ruclips.net/user/p00ky76videos
3. MixCast don't want to calculate a fully accurate culling volume with every frame. Their rectangular prism culling volume is a truthful approximation of the volume a user in a reasonable position can see, except at the farthest edge of the board from the user where render height goes to zero - or to the height of the 'kickstand' portion in the configuration which tips it up.
4. 19:59
"One of the things they did work hard at is finding a way for gamers to stream that experience, 'cause AR, as immersive as it is, can be kind of isolating because people in the outside world have no idea what you're looking at. They can look at a flat-screen representation on your computer screen, but aside from wearing glasses, it's hard to see what AR is _about_.
*MixCast is a company and a system that now works with Tilt Five. It's actually what I'm using to show a simulated view of what the Tilt Five experience looks like.* And, a system that works actually really well; I have a camera set up looking over my shoulder where it can see the tracking markers and then I tell the system I'm using Tilt Five glasses, it actually recognized the tracking markers. And games that support MixCast and Tilt Five then have a perspective that's oriented correctly over this calibrated camera view, which is how you can see these holograms on top of the game surface as I'm playing the game right now.
But trust me, the games in 3D, in stereo, look even more immersive although the resolution I think is a little misleading 'cause it looks sharp to you on the screen and like I said that 720p projector's a little bit more fuzzy and aliased in headset."
@@HypoceeYT Good comment, I think the idea is great. I worked on 3D without glasses many years ago, the marketing department did the same thing, presenting photo’s that where compositet. 😬Chan is clear about how he recorded the footage.
never played DnD, but this seems like the perfect tool for virtual DnD games, if thats a thing
From Google glass to Microsoft holo lens AR is still in the "gimmick" zone for me. We have a long way to go still before this sees average use.
D & D online multiplayer is the perfect use case for this. Can’t wait till that’s available.
This is so cool. I want hand detection! Come on future, get here now!
I was looking at getting an arcade cabinet table for my living room, but as a dedicated VR geek, I think this is a little more apropos for me. My gaming laptop isn't getting much use anyways, so it can sit under the table and run this just fine as my party game furniture. Beats everyone sitting around playing Smash Bros on Switches. In fact, I'm surprised Nintendo isn't trying to acquire them, this is more on brand for them vs. doing VR like Sony.
If you have a laptop with only 2 USB3 sockets, can you only use 2 sets of glasses of can you use a USB3 hub?
Is there enough bandwidth?
1. Yes, you can use a hub, people do it routinely.
2. Usually yeah , more or less.
To expand on 2, the first step depends on the bandwidth of the port (and hub, and cables). If you have a 10 or 20gbps chain, then completely yes. Worst case, if you're splitting a 5gbps port between two sets, then there isn't enough bandwidth. The video stream is the large majority of the data going up the wire, and it's not compressed. Simple arithmetic works out to 2.65gbps - slightly more than half, so there isn't enough for two. That's excluding other signals and overheads. So, you'd get choked bandwidth leading to some dropped frames.
However, for most multiplayer games T5 is aimed at, even that sort of doesn't matter. There are probably some laptops which on some 3D games can crank out 180 or 240fps, but realistically you're going to be more render limited. And the onboard always-on 180Hz reprojection is designed to keep things smooth with dropped frames, regardless of the cause. You shouldn't envision playing air hockey with this, or some super twitchy technical Super Smash Bros Melee equivalent, but Mario Party or 3D World equivalents and arcade games are fine, and strategy games, boardgames, and RPGs just don't care.
Mirroring doesn't "render" multiple times, it's just an output copy which is generally instant and almost using no resources however depending on some setups, that copy could take a bit more resources if it has to go across different gpus etc..considering this isn't using DP, that likely means it "acts" as its own gpu display output meaning there could be some issues there (something like rendered on internal gpu/dgpu, copied to usb gpu, copied back to internal for mirroring) .. same kinda things you might see with a USB monitor or USB to hdmi kind of thing
Maybe I'm not understanding. What is the benefit to this vs traditional AR where one would use a large tracking pad and a camera enabled headset? Here, the game board is reflecting projected light back to the display, opposed to having a software impose the image on a tracking square. Why is this better?
- Light weight.
- Brightness. So bright it can "draw black" which is proverbially impossible in optical AR.
- (Not mentioned in this video, but in others) Lack of "Vergence-Accommodation Conflict" present in all previous and forecast devices whether optical or passthrough. Attendant comfort and possibly safety.
- Field of view (Yes, it's limited in practice by the board and some pixels are typically wasted outside it. But they're free to choose their FOV unlike other techs, and they chose this balance carefully years ago.) It's about being able to look around a bit instead of having to keep your head riveted to a thing if you want it to not disappear.
- World-first framebuffer reprojection decouples the frame rate, allowing comfortable use of low-power hosts or multiple sets on one stronger host.
- Huge "eyebox", eliminating IPD and other adjustments, and distortions from near-eye lens effects.
- Vision of the real world incomparable to any passthrough-based device and many optical ones.
- Eyeglasses compatibility
- Price parity in the first 10K units of the first product generation, sold at a profit, from a company of ~25 people, versus the cheapest fourth-ish generation device heavily subsidized by a gigacorp that burns billions a quarter. 1/10 to 1/5 the price of other optical AR.
- Also has drawbacks, but openness. SDK is free for all to download, driver is hosted on Windows and soon Android and Linux. T5 can't stop you from doing what you want with your software. No platform with a custom OS, weird hardware architecture, or setting up an account and begging to be allowed to publish your thing.
- Just plain looks good. Critics/journalists like Chan, Ang, Guttag, Hamilton, who get to try all these 4- and 5-digit devices and some of whom went in skeptics thinking Ellsworth was bullshitting, regularly come out calling it "the best ___ I've ever seen."
One advantage is you know what's AR and what isn't! Virtual toilets will forever be an unsolved problem with 'traditional AR'. For instance... :)
6:20 К сожалению просто краски не достаточно. Данная технология с напылением микроскопических капелек стекла. Только они могут отражать свет в том направлении, откуда он пришел.
Can you play this with the board on the floor, as opposed to a table?
Imagine playing Civ games on these
i really like your shirt, it would be cool to have one that looks like a road map of silicon valley with all the tech companies are end points on the circuit.
Norm, that's cooling "fan", singular. The other grille is just a passive exhaust port. Also, you may be seeing the black bar cutoff at the top because you didn't change your board type in the driver configuration utility. Maybe in the future Tilt Five could make this change automatic by having the glasses scan a code printed on the board itself (possibly with invisible IR-absorbing ink!). The new v1.3.0 driver does allow for dual controllers and headsets now, so maybe more natural pinch-zoom gestures will be possible in the future? That Beat Saber mod already works with one controller. It would be trivial to support a second one for the full experience. In the meantime, you can just hold down some other button and physically move your wand closer or further away from the board to achieve the same thing. You can even rotate simultaneously while doing this because the controller incorporates an IMU.
will it have vr addon like castar , just a cover over the glasses?
No, they dropped that function even early in CastAR. It made some sense in 2013-2014 when the Oculus Rift was just a development kit, but today it would just be a Rokid or nReal but inferior in every way.
Awesome video norm sir
Cool yes - but dosn't it defeat the object of AR if its essentially projecting onto a screen?
Its more like a clever 3d display than AR at this point.
You're still tethered to the 'game board' 'display' thing
It does, it really focuses on the days (and they still exist) of people gaming together around a table. It's still AR, in the sense that it augments the world you see through the glasses.
Android support is promised, so that'll take away the tethering feel, since the computer will be in your pocket and you can walk around the board. (As long as you keep the right dots in view.) But yes, you're projecting onto a screen called a board. It works well though, and the boards, (the cheapest part of it) will get bigger and better fast, I think. And I'm sure much more use cases for it will be found than just tabletop gaming.
Konami should pay attention to this. Since it would be amazing for Yu-Gi-Oh since the show has had holograms for years and fans have wanted the monsters to fight
Cool tech.
I wish it didn't need the reflective surface though. Maybe just some stickers for position tracking.
In the early days they had talked about alternative tracking methods but I dont know if thats still in the works. It would be good if they did though.
It's a projector, it definitely requires these surfaces due to the light output being super low.
It uses a lot of space, but much less space than standard VR for sure. Maybe if mounted vertically it could be used a like an alternative to a monitor or TV if you dont have the space for a screen and still give you a 3D effect. The price is a little hard for 30 some odd games, but with time I could see the price drop and the tech improve and a lot potential in playing games besides those made for it. I was reminded of the VR game Moss where you are assisting a character remotely, you could probably map a lot of that interactivity to the wand controller. Also the old PS3 game, Eye of Judgment, that used AR cards and PSeye camera. Wouldn't mind being able to repurpose my cards.
Fortunately for us, vertical orientation tracking was just added to the latest version of the driver, so new game play styles might be in our future. The only drawback being that the 720p resolution really hurts clarity much further "into" the board than the comfortable sweet spot.
It is neat and all and huge props to Jerri for all her work on them but I can't stand the idea of using the matt with the fold lines being so visible like that. I would have to create my own custom smooth larger board if I owned 1.
A guy going by Dragon Magic Studio has set up a side business manufacturing seamless and rollable T5 mats. Not linking because of YT banbots, but the store is searchable.
Interesting product, like to see this evolve. Can be a good alternative to current VR experiences, especially with four people around the board all playing in the same world. I don't see space as a problem since a normal VR headset has the person using that much or more floor space. The price isn't bad considering the cost of some VR headsets.
And you can look at the people around you. Interact with them grab a drink eat chips. Because you see everything around you too
That's pretty awesome for social gaming. I could see myself building a gaming table with usb connectivity to a laptop where a DM could control the overall experience. Or have gamers on their phones even controlling their experience.
The price is too much but I can see how this tech can lower it's price point with modern mass manufacturing
Can this be used for viewing a 3D movie? I know this is a bit more mundane than playing a game, but it might be well suited for this.
In theory. A couple users have done it in Unity.
However, they hard baked the video data into the projects. Setting up an application that can play the various, often proprietary and encrypted, file formats, for a marginally relevant medium, is a patent/licensing minefield for little visible potential gain. It's hard to imagine a good tool being made. Someday I hope to pick a bit at like a VLC plugin, where the fancy work would be already done upstream.
Maybe have an AI automatically figure out the depth map for arbitrary movies and have them represented as holograms in Tilt Five?
I'm interested in seeing the next generation if they make one
They definitely will if the first one sells well. All they really need to upgrade is the glasses, so they would support 4k. I think it's meaningless to go above that. Despite what people say, there is a limit where human eyes cannot tell the difference anymore regarding graphics.
I personally believe that 4k 120 FPS is the last highmark games can reach. After that everything begins to be meaningless waste of resources that would be more useful in something like A.I development.
Still waiting for turn based and RPG games before i take the plunge. Being able to log into Steam and play my library on this would be perfect!
Thanks! I bought this. It's terrible and there are few games, they are mostly flash games. Plus one pair of glasses broke from static shock.
Thank you for your super thanks! We appreciate your support!
What's that game at 3:04?
Battle Planet: Judgment Day
@@HypoceeYT thanks :)
I love AR and this is amazing! But the main thing that really excites me is when these come down in price and I can pick up 4 to have for parties or game nights. Seems like even non-gamers could pick this up without an issue! So much fun to be had :D
Just need some amogus.
4 or 6 or whatever. If it's 200$ it's affordable to buy a pair and show up at a friend's. Or have a spare set
Super! I would love to play these in Subnautica and Sabnautica: Below Zero. Well, maybe also in Ruft Survival: Multiplayer.
That was great, thanks!
A lot of the footage is faked right? Like at 13:17 there's an image displayed well off the retroreflective surface, and the blacks are darker than the uniluminated parts of the surface.
Chan chose to use the compositing software MixCast for most of his shots for convenience, and said so in the video.
19:59
"One of the things they did work hard at is finding a way for gamers to stream that experience, 'cause AR, as immersive as it is, can be kind of isolating because people in the outside world have no idea what you're looking at. They can look at a flat-screen representation on your computer screen, but aside from wearing glasses, it's hard to see what AR is _about_.
MixCast is a company and a system that now works with Tilt Five. It's actually what I'm using to show a simulated view of what the Tilt Five experience looks like. And, a system that works actually really well; I have a camera set up looking over my shoulder where it can see the tracking markers and then I tell the system I'm using Tilt Five glasses, it actually recognized the tracking markers. And games that support MixCast and Tilt Five then have a perspective that's oriented correctly over this calibrated camera view, which is how you can see these holograms on top of the game surface as I'm playing the game right now.
But trust me, the games in 3D, in stereo, look even more immersive although the resolution I think is a little misleading 'cause it looks sharp to you on the screen and like I said that 720p projector's a little bit more fuzzy and aliased in headset."
T5 has chosen to work with MC because the core appeal of the tech is that things are 3D, and nobody's found a way to communicate that in a 2D picture or video without drawing stuff above the board. You'll see comments on this very video from people who have apparently never used a VR headset or seen a 3D movie, insisting that because there's a flat surface somewhere in the system the image can't possibly appear to be 3D. The height of MC's clipping box is carefully chosen to honestly represent the height above the center of the board that a user can see in a typical setup.
There are physical through-the-lens shots visibly taken by Chan on the same setup at
8:58 - 9:18
10:24 - 10:53
11:03 - 11:19
The system is so bright that it is able to draw black areas by contrast with lighted ones. In use, unprojected areas of the mat appear black, not grey, but they can magically appear to be darker than something in the environment that's the same grey without the projection on.
I've had mine for months and it's a great piece of kit. Needs more software though. The one issue imo is the sound from the glasses, it's pretty bad. It's not a problem really as you can use headphones or your pc speakers, a little surprised it wasn't mentioned though.
This could be pretty cool for d&d w/the right software and interfaces for DM
What is with glasses? is it possible to wear them too?
It's designed to fit over glasses, yes. There's supposed to be a nosepiece designed to be good for that, but the alternate nosepieces hit manufacturing problems and haven't appeared.
Have any tabletop game companies developed for this? Playing some games with lengthy setup on this seems cool
Yes, two have.
They've partnered from the start with Tabletopia, one of the two big licensed Web boardgame providers. TT updated their Steam client to work with T5 in early 2022. It's a bit functional and bare and has major limitations: Only plays with other Steam clients with a manually implemented 109-game subset of TT's library of thousands. TT also, as a matter of philosophy, leaves all rule interpretation up to players. It performs no automation or tracking of anything (although setup may be the exception, I think I read a guide to setting up a first turn).
Then there's Asmodee, the megapublisher that's bought up every boardgame company that isn't Parker Brothers. In 2020 its digital side essentially quit in-house development, turning to licensing out games to studios. Two T5-exclusive adaptations of Asmodee games are announced. Takenoko released a few days ago and Settlers of Catan is coming later this spring, both developed by studio Blazing Griffin. Everybody involved hopes Blazing Griffin will establish an easy, profitable production pipeline and work their way up to things like Gloomhaven which are great but sort of a pain to actually play.
Asmodee also now owns Boardgame Arena, the other online boardgame platform. The dream is that they would rig a good T5 client for that, even though the graphics would be 2D on the table. It all depends on a few different money situations. BGA can automate stuff if creators put in the work, although how much of it actually gets programmed and how much is correct, who's to say.
@@HypoceeYT wow! Thanks! This wouldn't replace my physical games but would be nice for some of the harder to set up ones!
If they could track your hands and you could input with gestures that would be pretty cool.
The glasses can't by itself, but there have been demos using an UltraLeap controller to activate commands using hand gestures. Totally doable now.
Imagine playing DnD on this with a group of friends....
This will be perfect in game houses like MOX Boarding House.
so originally they showed this working with RPG gamers like DandD so individuals could connect live in three d and get a game group .Seemed ideal to me, but it looks like its really not there yet?
They partnered with Fantasy Grounds at the time, who had bought up Tabletop Connect and were going to make a 3D version of their software. Fantasy Grounds subsequently backed out of doing 3D at all.
@@HypoceeYT was hoping this would be my answer to be a solo older person that would like to give it a try
At first I thought this was kind of stupid. Like you need board to see anything? And then I saw the price and it made a lot more sense
I want to see a pinball table sized Tilt 5 playmat
I was always imagining this as a party game type of thing, until you mentioned each pair of glasses needs a PC attached to it. Buying this kit and adding 4 gaming laptops or whatever into the mix is out of reach for what I would've used it for.
They have always intended to run multiple glasses off one computer, and released the first driver and SDK providing that function in January. Chan's saying the _software_ he used needed a computer per user. At the time he made this review, only three titles supported multiset and he only knew of two. One more has since updated literally today.
T5 have talked about efforts to get their existing dev partners to go back and add multiset, but it's likely to be mostly new titles that implement it while they're adding support in the first place.
I was a Kickstarter backer for Tilt Five and unfortunately, given all of the delays and issues out of the box, I can't say I played it for more than a day after I got it and haven't picked it back up since...
It didn't work out of the box for me, the USB-C to A adapter it came with didn't work, luckily I had my own adapter that finally worked.
Also, I could not find any USB cable extender that worked, so I am forced to basically sit on the floor next to my Desktop PC to play the games....that's probably why I never really went back to it after a day of playing, who wants to play on the floor?
I'm sure if I invested some time I can find workarounds for these issues, but 6 months ago when I received my table there were no workarounds I could find. Maybe things have changed a bit since I last looked, I really want to get excited about Tilt Five again
I play on my couch and coffee table 🤷♂️
The physics are confusing😅. It's not like the material reflects the image off the game board to your eye because of the angle. Pretty cool.
So when is this being hooked up to a duel disk so we can play Yu-Gi-Oh
A year ago, sort of. ruclips.net/video/fno_defC9SU/видео.html
Just looking at it, a pinball emulator program and a Pac-Man program would be pretty freaking sweet
The inventor/leader of the tech is a big pinball nerd, and already working in her "spare" time on hooking it up to Visual Pinball Engine.
A fan/developer - the same guy who set up manufacturing of the seamless/rollable boards Chan mentioned - is also making a couple games for it. One of them, Gooper Cooper, is a Pac-Man.
Traincraft is also available for free on T5's "The Lab". It's a tough, brain-bending mashup of "The Train Game", Snake, and Pac-Man.
I love the concept, especially in relation to it's potential use for 3D pinball at some point in the future. I do feel that the image appearing outside of the reflective screen area at ruclips.net/video/DbjjCn1zJq8/видео.html is a little misleading and guessing this is not actually possible when viewed through the glasses. Is this some form of other capture method that the software supports purely for gameplay recording, based on overlaying the 3D image over the top of what the camera sees (in relation to the play surface)? Somewhat similar to how Quest 2 allows you to record augmented reality videos with an iPhone?
Edit: Seems this is discussed at about 20 minutes into the video (they are using Mixcast) ruclips.net/video/DbjjCn1zJq8/видео.html
Perspective's been around 500 years or so and drawing a thing over a background is still the only way we have to communicate "it's 3D" in a 2D image or video. in all T5's composited shots and Chan's Mixcast footage here, Mixcast's chosen render volume is a good approximation of the volume _the person depicted using the system_ can see.
T5 has a couple other niche features but comfy, non-blinded stereo 3D is _the_ reason somebody would buy and wear this device. Mixcast could cut off the projection as if the camera was physically wearing a set of the glasses, but that's arguably misleading in the other direction and unfairly not communicating the thing it does. On every video about T5, including this one, there are some comments by people who don't understand stereoscopic vision and have apparently never heard of a theater, 3DTV, or Magic Eye; they insist that because a flat surface is involved there's no way objects could appear to be above the board where you can "touch" them. How many more people would fail to understand the tech if Mixcast didn't render things where the user sees them?
This video contains physical through-the-lens shots taken by Chan at
8:58 - 9:18
10:24 - 10:53
11:03 - 11:19
@@HypoceeYT Yeah I understand how 3D works including the ability to show objects in front of the screen/surface. My particular interest is 3D pinball having a reasonable level of experience with using Reshade/Superdepth3D (I wrote a superdepth3D/VPX tutorial at VPForums a year or so back). I've also been following the VPE developments and their interaction with T5 a while back, some great stuff ahead for us pinheads.
I completely understand that objects can appear "above the board" but they cannot appear outside of the line of sight of the board edges with the T5 tech, only by way of Mixcast to show an approximation from a different angle to the original viewer. This is where I feel the video is a little misleading without immediate explanation. The through the lens shots are not shown until quite some time later in the video.
I feel like the Mixcast explanation should have been included early in the video with the first use of Mixcast, rather than 20 minutes in. I also note that they mention Mixcast in the notes which is good, but I didn't notice that until after I watched the video.
Regarding "Mixcast's chosen render volume", I feel like the users eye level would need to be quite high above the gaming surface in order to mimic the volume that Mixcast is showing. It would be good to see a real-time side by side comparison, through the lens vs mixcast.
All that aside, I really do hope the T5 tech gets more traction, Jeri's story is pretty amazing and she is certainly someone I'd love to chat with if I ever got the chance.
Lastly, I wonder if the T5 team have investigated using solid state fan tech, rather than traditional mechanical fans. ruclips.net/video/YGxTnGEAx3E/видео.html
Literally like fighting/playing with one hand behind your back!😬
Controller is weak, but Visually is quite commendable!👍
Mike in San Diego.🌞🎸🚀🖖
22:10 I would totally be down with a Holochess experience at Disney.
Everyone who sees Tilt Five wants Dejarik 😄 I personally want to see a rendition of Star Trek's Tridimensional Chess 😁
@@MikeTrieu as long as we can also play Strategema.
Is it available on Mac?
Nope. They're picking away and apparently got it _working_ internally on the one Mac user's machine, but jumping through all Apple's cert hoops is going to take a lot of work at low priority. There's been one side remark about "maybe late this year" but that's probably absolute best case. Also, unlike MS, Linux, and Google's open application systems, there's a decent chance Apple could straight up deny them entry to their walled garden for not being sexy enough for the brand and having zero billion dollars to bribe their way in.
One potential issue I can see with using this is bad posture since you have to look down to use it. I imagine people would be getting neck pain after a while.
Do people already complain about neck pain when playing board games or TCGs?
They need to make that black stick slide into the controller or fold down into the back damn they really need a real designer on the team
Ellsworth is a legend, I've wanted a T5 for a while now... such a cool piece of tech
Table is cool, but what about wallpaper?😎
Nintendo should buy them. That’d be a perfect match!
Pinball would be amazing on this.
Ellsworth, the inventor/CEO/speaker, is a pinball nut and collector, and has prototyped that. The lead developer of VPE dropped by the Discord at one point too. They say that things are slowly happening on this front.