"Church of Christ" deny ORIGINAL SIN
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- Christ Rescued Me! ....from the "CoC"
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Imputation of Adam's Sin by John Murray
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The Great Christian doctrine of original sin defended by Jonathan Edwards
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Romans: Assurance, Exposition of Chapter 5 by Martyn Lloyd-Jones
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Church of Christ Exiles
This is a Facebook Group meant for people coming out of the Restoration Movement that are seeking community and help with receiving the Gospel of Grace.
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Thank you all for this immersion in scripture! God bless y'all!
So glad you all did this much needed podcast! Jeremiah the intro on here was especially helpful!! You really summed up the CoC in just a few seconds! Just a heads up....I hope to get that second book PDF to you sometime today or tomorrow!! I've been burning the midnight oil for multiple months now!!!! I desperately need a vacation soon!
I read the book 'evangelical heathenism' and that helped me as did the 'restoration movement' books by that old baptist debater. I may or may not have your book.
I cant wait! :)
The denial of original sin is the foundation of all manner of heresy
Still listening as I write this. I never had problem with doctrines such as Original Sin, Trinity, Eternal Security, Salvation by Faith Alone in Christ Alone ( Rom 3:25, 4:5, Eph 1:13 ) Got saved almost 50 years ago this summer 23AUG1974 through the witness of Lutheran Camp Counselor who spoke very Evangelical. Before that, raised in various mainline denominations ( UMC, PCUSA ) with some exposure to RC ( I was a few Non-RC in RC Sponsored BCUSA troop 1971-72 which I attended Mass a few times..No one tried to protolyze me into Catholism or any 'religion' in those days for everyone I knew in NW Indiana 'US Steel Territory' had some 'religious' background whether they practiced it or not )
Can't say I'm Pure 'Calvinist' or at least Five point . Can't say I'm Cessasionist nor Non Cessasionist , I would probably come closer to a light dispensational view, Free Grace , Pre Mill, Pre Trib position.
Having said all that, I have great grievance with Church of Christ ( Campellite ) view of Soteriology . My Crisis of Assurance ( Not Faith in Christ nor the Scripture itself) came by being challenged by UPCi Oneness Pentecostals concerning Water Baptism as a 'mystical' conduit of the Blood of Christ ( being applied through the waters of Baptism in 'Jesus' Name though one of 'annointed' UPCi ministers) Doctrine of Baptism was almost the same a CoC except the absence of Trinitarian formula ( Some of the influence of UPCI was my short experience in seeking a tongues experience sincerely believing it would draw me closer to Holy Spirit and practical daily living) Prior to that, I was influence by more Reformed churches and IVCF in college 1982.
Though I have an unshakeable FAITH in Scriptures (KJV AV1611 most accurate.. ), How any group or preacher may interpret and apply any one text of scripture is always up towards scrutiny in my mind.
I recon that I got Saved, sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT Upon FAITH IN CHRIST when I first Heard the Gospel ( 1 Cor 15 , Ep 1:13, Rom 4:5) as an individual at age 15 DESPITE being Tried, Tested, and myriads of life failures and sins. I DO appeal to experiences ( Unlike Most **Charismatic type... who focus more on 'This life Now' rather that Eternity) if I can test my experience with scriptures, primarily through the Pauline Epistles which I sincerely believe are the most accurate marching orders for the church today
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
1 Cor 1:17
**"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
Luke 10:20
Original sin is false. Jesus wasn’t born a sinner and for we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin. Jesus in “every way” was “tempted like we are”. Original sin is a leftover of Gnosticism from Augustine
you obviously didnt watch the video lol
@@TheApologeticDogwatching it right now. No one ever addressed that Jesus was in all ways tempted as we are (Hebrews 4:15). For your position to be true Jesus would have to experience total depravity. All means all. The only response I heard was sin travels by the father so Jesus wasn’t born a sinner but that doesn’t work with the common understanding of psalms 51:5 where David got original sin from his mother rather than his father
@@ClarkAboudaz 47:03
@@ClarkAboudaz I am not sure if you know how procreation works lol, but David was conceived in sin.....
@@TheApologeticDogthat’s the comment I’m referring too. He argues Jesus is different because he didn’t have a earthly father. He argues with Romans 5 but I would point him to verse 19 where it says “by one man's disobedience many were made sinners”. If your position is correct the passage would read “by one man’s disobedience all were made sinners”. Using Romans 5 to proof text for original sin is not good exegesis. Again I would ask you do you believe that Jesus is tempted in all ways as you experience or did he have an advantage
If you guys address this in the video my apologies for bringing it up. But this whole idea of original sin is blaming someone else for the reasons YOU chose to sin. You teach the same false proverb God calls out in Ezekiel 18. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father.
Original sin isn’t blaming someone else for our sin. We are guilty for our own sin, and we are all born with a fallen nature due to original sin. Original sin is 100% biblical and denying original sin leads to heresy 😊
@@SaltyApologist Ecclesiastes 7:29 God made man upright, and they sought out many schemes. “They” is modifying “man” making it mankind rather than Adam as some might say. Romans 3:25-26 is saying that the Blood of Jesus saves both forwards and backwards of the cross. We know the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t forgive sin, but the blood of Christ does. So I put forth Adam’s sin was forgiven, whether by the blood of Christ or any other way God saw fit. Now we have the case of God blaming all of mankind for the sin he forgave Adam of. Ezekiel 18 God says he doesn’t blame one for the sin of another, and calls that idea a false proverb. Too often people see the consequences of something and make that equal to guilt.
@@justinhuddleston9567 IMO, this is a misreading of the text. This doesn’t equate to all men being made upright. Adam was made upright, and I agree all mankind did seek out many schemes, because of the fall. Romans clearly expresses the federal headship of Adam. All men fall under the headship of Adam, the called and saved are under the headship of Christ. Nobody is claiming we are guilty for Adam’s sin, but, as you even indicated, there are consequences for this original sin. That consequence is a fallen nature that is unable to please God without that nature being changed. There is no concept in the Bible of each man being born completely autonomous with the ability to choose the things of God on their own. We are either in Adam or we are in Christ.
@@SaltyApologist apply Adam to chapter 7:5,14,& 20. It doesn’t fit. All of those verses include all of mankind. You’ve made the curse of Adam’s sin greater than the cure of Christs blood. Babies being born as sinners is guilt, being that man will die is a consequence. It’s as if you’re conflating the two together.
Excellent!! They follow several doctrines of Pelagian, the heretic.
They teach several extremely spurious doctrines...........on the Gospel, the Holy Spirit, Pattern Theology, and the Trinity.
Very twisted theologically!
So true! I was just writing about their pattern theology again this morning! Here's a sneak peak:
"The CoC’s “pattern theology” confounds the continuity and discontinuity between the two testaments, by superficially creating a concept of “patternism” (specific directions on how to do everything) based on O.T. patterns (e.g., Ex. 25:9, Heb. 8:5). By doing so, it confuses the difference between directions and directives (being guided by moral principles, rather than being given specific directions on exactly how to do everything).
As a dire consequence, it ends up confusing the New Covenant with the Old Covenant, which fatally mixes law and grace. So until clear category distinctions are adequately acknowledged in the CoC, it will continue to imply that there are different gospels for different dispensations. (Also see: Moth-Eaten Patterns, CRM, p. 39).
@@christrescuedme2182 Hi Lee Anne!!
I'm one of your die-hard fans and I recommend your excellent book continually!
I grew up CoC!!
John Mark Hicks wrote a book on their Pattern Theology.
Very good point that you make!! They want to make LAW out of everything!
I have an ongoing dialogue with a CoC cousin and he just cannot comprehend grace.............he just cannot "GET" it!
(His dad was a CoC preacher and was spiritually and emotionally abusive.......makes sense.)
@@christrescuedme2182 From my perspective. my Major, if not sole error, in CoC, is their Soteriological error on justification by faith vs Justification through water Baptism. Coc, as with Oneness UPCi both focus on Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38 as opposed to other scriptures ( Rom 3:25, 4:5, Ep 1:13, 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 ) as if they're guilt ridden by their fellow adherents if they question their 'religious' heritage. In other word, many are too weak to grasp GOD through Christ for fear of ridicule, or persecution as Galatians were by Judaizers of their day.
How do we deal with independent 'christian churches'? How can we tell if they are heretics?
@christrescuedme2182 how do we tell the difference between CoC as described and the 'independent' 'christian church' that has musical instruments and doesn't claim to be the 'one true church'? Are they heretical as well? Should they be cooperated with in regards to christian organizations such as schools?
I have a question. Since sin entered the world through Adam, how did sin enter the world of Adam and Eve since they were not born in sin. They weren't born at all, they had no spiritual depravity, and they did not inherit original sin. They were not made with an inclination toward sin, so how did they become sinners?
Adam and Eve became sinners when they transgressed God’s law….which is different now bc everyone is born with a sin-cursed nature born in Adam
They became sinners the same way anyone today does (I John 3:4).
@@brianyeager915 Actually all of humanity are sinners by nature being born in Adam
@@TheApologeticDog You know I will not argue with you. I will just say this, that is not true. Examples (Genesis 5:22-24, Genesis 6:8-9, Job 1:8, Job 2:3, Psalms 37:37, etc.). The person not blinded by the doctrines of men would, at the very least, seriously question your conclusion after reading those Scriptures.
@@brianyeager915 Of course, your position has no argument. That is why the COC have to beg the question and say “We speak where the Bible speaks” “No Creed but Christ”. And since you have no argument, you have to accuse all arguments and debates as “sinful”. To which you always break your own standard when you quote verses and say “Calvinism refuted” lol
Had the fella kept reading in Genesis 5 (@29 mins in) he would have not been able to continue saying, "he died, he died..." for long. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him... By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" (Genesis 5:22-24; Hebrews 11:5). Calvinism debunked - right there. Simple. Come out from among them and be separate, Jeremiah. Please!
How so? Reformed do believe that God grants the gift of faith in the Lord Jesus, and that by the Holy Spirit sinners can please God through the blood of Christ our Meditator.
@@truthisbeautiful7492 Enoch did not die.
So God can't make exceptions or do what He wants when He wants and with Whom He wants? Your point does not at all refute "Calvanism" nor does it prove there is no original sin. All it proves is that Enoch pleased God and God "took" him. This is a Logical Fallacy argument.
@@brianyeager915 “by faith” my guy lol
Great I think this is a huge problem that needs refuting. I wonder if Apologetic Dog has looked into John Owen on this? I know that Vermingli has a whole book on Original Sin as well and I've wondered if he has read it yet
I have not read Owen on this. However I listed a few books I read in the show notes of this video, that helped me prepare for this episode with Eli and Anthony :)