High voltage igniter teardown with schematic
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2022
- These seem to be a very common style of component on Aliexpress and sometimes on eBay too.
It's a spark ignitor for gas that could be used for cooker, ovens or other applications. Unlike oil igniters or larger scale gas units, it doesn't have a continuous hot spark, but just pulses low current sparks continuously until the gas/air ratio hits the sweet spot and ignition occurs.
The design is gloriously simple due to the use of a specialist component designed almost exclusively for generating high current pulses used to drive the transformer assembly.
The format of these varies. This one appears to have three separate high voltage secondaries, which raises the intriguing possibility of wiring them in series for a single higher voltage spark.
Other versions have a common ground connection and several outputs referenced to that.
If desired, the PCB could be removed for driving your own custom transformer or pulse coil. Or alternatively you could take inspiration from its design for your own PCB design. It's a classic circuit.
The very high value resistor is a discharge resistor designed to gently discharge the main capacitor to prevent a rogue unexpected spark due to retained charge, or possibly to avoid false triggering due to leakage current on the supply circuit causing the capacitor to gradually charge up until a spark occurs unexpectedly.
Supporting the channel with a dollar or two on Patreon helps keep it independent of RUclips's quirks, avoids intrusive mid-video adverts, gives early access, bonus footage and regular quiet Patreon live streams.
/ bigclive
#ElectronicsCreators 
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Anything that Clive describes as "Very sparky and poppy" has to be good !
So Clive got bored and dismantled his cooker..maybe next week when Clive stays at a local hotel we'll get a reverse engineered "Corby trouser press" 😁
Cool video. 👍
Hello Susan.....
@@terrymarky9996 ... lazy
I love the teardowns so much. This is total what I do when I change out appliance parts (I'm an appliance repair technician, I end up with lots of broken parts. 😂) so I can see how they work and how they failed.
You mentioned SIDACs in a previous "deconstruction" video - and they are useful for the purpose shown - dumping a large charge from a cap in series with an inductor. I've seen these being used in other applications (particularly mains bug zappers, where the HV output is used to charge a cap. bank for an "extra juicy" spark when an "undesireable" bridges the (usually wire mesh) contacts!
@GeorgiaRocketman 😁 😁 😁
I don't recall ever hearing of a SIDAC. Thanks for teaching me something new. Perhaps this can be part of a new Wiffle Machine?
It sounds like it acts like a solid state spark gap.
@@Sonny_McMacsson Yes exactly. It's a multilayer device in the thyristor family. It's basically a higher power diac.
It is a DIAC’s Lil’ brother.
How did you reply 3 weeks ago when the video is 2 hours old ?
@@jimmclay2353 Patreon members get early access.
Brilliant stuff, finally a circuit simple enough that I could follow the logic. Keep up the good work!
Hi Clive, Great news, because of your videos, I completely understand how that circuit works (not bad for a chemist). I suspected there was some learning going on while watching your other videos but this nice little circuit did it for me - good choice . Thanks Teach.
That module looks very similar to the Hotpoint HUG61X gas igniter module that failed on my old cooker. I managed to replace it with one of those cheap eBay igniter (stungun) modules, that surprisingly produced a much healthier spark from a single 18650 cell. Interesting video Clive, thanks for sharing.
My grandpa had a Vaillant gas boiler for hot water in his apartment which automagically ignited when you turned on the hot water tap or shower. It automagically turned on the gas supply and fired an igniter for 1-2 seconds that sounded similar to the one in this video. This was unlike any of those gas boilers that I've seen before, all of which had a manually ignited pilot flame and wasted gas all the time if you didn't turn them fully off. Was kinda jealous of his "deluxe" boiler, and with gas prices now exploding this automatic igniter version would make even more sense and not be as annoying as manually turning it fully off and reigniting the pilot every time you want hot water
Clive, I really appreciate the light and sound warnings you give. I typically watch in a dark room with headphones on. Your courtesy has prevented a few migraines. Thank you, Sir.
I found the snapping sound very satisfying actually.
SIDAC... Seemed familiar to me when described. Then I looked it up and learned it's similar to a DIAC only working at much higher breakdown voltages. Very interesting to learn about these devices as I am more of a T.V/Radio/Computer component level repair engineer. So I rarely get to deal with domestic white goods or industrial electronics.
Another absolute classic Clive. Keep them coming. Martin.
This is the best channel about electronics 😉
The only person I’ve ever seen, who tests if something will shock them, by touching the ends with his fingers. That is precisely why we love you Big C!
Just in time before bed time a new video! I love ignitor find them really interesting.
Ways to overclock it:
1- full bridge rectifier
2- bigger capacitor
3- higher frequency power suply
Higher frequency input will do nothing. DC input will feed the spark oscillator continuously instead of half the time, thus doubling the output speed.
4- Fire extinguisher
@@johndododoe1411 i said higher frequency, not dc. It would do the same, but faster
@@massriver (as far as i understood) it discharges at the top of the sine wave, and the sidac would just turn off close to 0v. So a full bridge recticfier would just make it do the same, twice as fast (i think)
@@dantevito1193 It won't spark until the LC circuit has been pumped with enough energy to create the spark. This energy apparently takes multiple 50Hz cycles to gather as it sparks less than 50 times per second. How do you think faster input cycles will speed up the energy build up beyond it's current speed?
Oh it's 2:40 in the morning, I'm watching big Clive again!
Not a bad solution for ignition, though I prefer piezo igniters. Push down against a stiff spring, trigger mechanism trips and dumps the energy stored in the spring into a hammer that bangs a piece of quartz, and the mechanical impact is converted by the quartz into a spark. (Almost sounds Rube Goldbergian when you spell out the entire process, but it's simple and effective. It works, it's neat, and it doesn't require any angry pixies in to get angry pixies out. It's almost alchemy.)
piezo is one of those pieces of equipment that have always fascinated me....
...what the hell you mean you smack a crystal and get electricity out of it?! Seriously?!
Piezo's great for cookers and the like but not so much for gas boilers or anything else that needs automated. I always figured it'd just be a flyback transformer for things like this
@@EddieTheH My most recent experience with a gas range still used pilot lights, and it wasn't terribly old. I can see how something like this would be more practical and reliable.
@@petersage5157 Yeah, it got me curious so I had a look in my combi boiler, it looks to be a similar thing to this.
I never knew about SIDACs, thank you for the explanation! Seriously nowhere in my education, even in engineering did they tell us about it.
The resin potting increases the voltage rating on the transformers. It would have to be way larger to meet the same voltage rating without being potted.
oh man, i'm totally hooked on your videos! you are such a treasure! big thankyou!
its so considerate he warns us about the lights and possible sounds
been in electronics for 40+ years. never ran across a SIDAC!
back in the 70s I built strobe lights using the same circuit for the trigger, how ever, we used an ne2 neon bulb instead of the sidac. if I remember it had around 90v breakdown.
I used to work at Plessey in the 1970s in next building to where they manufactured these type of ignitor coils. Long gone now. Used to have a drawer full of scrap ones but think I threw them.
Excellent as always!
very nice simple video and explaination of the igniter 🙂
8:52 "They're probably operating in their range." Yeah, isn't that where the sparker is build into in the first place? 😁 Sorry Clive, I couldn't resist!
Like the high voltage circuits 😀
I just found this chanel and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about but I like your voice so I think I'll stick around
thank you for all of the warnings. lol i do always wear headphones watching your vids
I knew they existed and what they did, but never seen it used this way.
Looked up the datasheet. There is a few good application examples there.
This one is more like Figure-14 of the datasheet from LittleFuse for Kxxxzy SIDAC.
Interesting video as always.
Thanks for providing this informative teardown. I have a cheap propane gas burner and am getting tired of flicking my Bic every time I go to brew my morning coffee.... Per the datasheet, the SIDAC used in this igniter has a breakdown voltage of ~220, but AC mains power where I live is ~117. Fortunately, Littelfuse manufactures a range of similar units with different ratings. Interested experimenters might wish to search for "Teccor® brand Thyristors/Standard Unidirectional SIDACs/KxxxzyU SIDAC Series 561" for more information.
You can get battery operated gas cooker igniter modules on eBay.
3:57 - You know that zooming down doesn't actually make it louder, right? ;-)
Merci! Very interesting schema.
Good video. Very interesting to see what's inside and how they work. I have one of these things in my Chef gas cooker. They don't have a very long life unfortunately. Mine went bad after 18 months.
Wow Clive, I never knew about the SIDAC, thanks.
SIDAC from AliExpress " could be unpredictable " . What an understatement 😆😆
I hope one day you get a chance to do a teardown of an on-sparkplug ignition coil.
I was looking at one of these just a few days ago. I couldn't understand how it worked without an earth reference connection on the generator, but I guess with a floating transformer the chassis is just a connection between the 2 sparks - whether grounded or not is unimportant. Clever!
Looks like a model train to me as well,so if you can, why not put wheels on and keep it as a background piece in your videos! A good video as per normal and I enjoy how you explain how the circuit works. Keep 'em coming Clive and thank ya.
Yea it looks like a little train :D
Great video
"One Moment Pleeease" My favorite part.
oh so that is how those work! I have one from somewhere, I knew it was an igniter but didn't know it could just be plugged in and work. Thanks for the video! maybe I will use it for something someday!
See if it has a voltage rating on it. Some may be for low voltage use.
@@bigclivedotcom thanks for the reply, it does have a voltage rating of 120-240 Vac 0.6 - 8.5VA
It has a model number of BK50064.51
So yea very similar to yours, I do see the primary wire coming back from the far end. 20.9 microHenry 0.02 ohms primary
2 microFarad capacitor
397 milliHenry 808 ohm secondary (1 out of 3 )
If i'm not mistaken, a Sidac acts almost like a bipolair TVS diode, except a TVS conducts constantly during clamping, while a Sidac disconnects during clamping again when the voltage is dropped below the threshold, almost like a neon bulb does on each cycle.
Never knew that these igniters where build with only a few components, you should think that a PWM IC or 555 is used. Nice video. Grtz
Watched your last night show and i'm here again - Addiction? 😁
Big Cliveoholics Anonymous.
4:29 "Embra" - Love it!!!!
Oh, I've heard about a SIDAC before. It's the grumpy orange pokemon.
Yessiree Bob ❤️✌️
I was sad you didn't try wheels on it before the "breakdown"....🤣. Thanks for the video Clive
Awesome Video big clive
Connect the secondary windings in series and pull a spark off that.
Very interesting I always wondered what triggered the pulse in the electricity, I am of the HVAC field so this would be a component in the main circuit board for a heater.
Big yin, you had me at "High Voltage".
Very interesting bit of kit. 2x👍
A SIDAC is silicon diode for alternating current. A SIDAC was used bc it has a higher breakover voltage and current handling capacities than DIACs.
as always sir Clive ty
I definitely saw these the other day, and probably threw them away, didn't think they were of much use
Pretty nifty little devices. I've managed to get the PCB out without destroying the casing by first desoldering the output wires and the input F2 (i think) connector plates - then with a little prying it came off.
11:25 we had this race car in our shop that didn’t have the ignition coil wired correctly to the main power cutoff switch, (many years ago, can’t remember the exact problem) so like half the time if you switched off the main switch shortly after stopping the engine with the ignition switch, it would unexpectedly fire one cylinder and crank the engine 1/4 turn. 😬
Nice. Now that I have bought one, I need to find a use for it.
Put some wheels under it, some metal chimneys, power it up and give it as a present to your little nephew.
Taser
@@MattyEngland would never do that, that would be illegal😖😳😆🤔
they look like Pulse transformers for triggering old scr 1,2,4 dc drives. Std and Regen. but the shielding UJT junction signal driver ckt, never really impressed me until Opto Isolaters, came into play. That was a lot of fun...late 70's.
Seems like the perfect accessory for a door knob!
That resin looks like those toy sculpture kits you could buy when we were kids where you'd chip away at the soft material to leave the hard premade statue inside.
Certainly does look like a model steam loco! Clive is a closet crank?!
SIDAC - maybe something like an overvoltage triggering of a thysistor. Or when a transistor is operated above the defined voltage and switches from C to E without using B
in fact, every diode junction can be made to conduct over a certain overvoltage. It depends on the manufacturer to do it in such a way that it is controlled.
A DIAC fires at about 30 volts. It was often used in dimmer circuits.
This triggered and ARCtivatede my interest in this device, so here is some more info. A Silicon Diode for Alternating Current (SIDAC) is a less commonly used device, electrically similar to the DIAC, but having, in general, a higher breakover voltage and greater current handling capacity.[citation needed]
The SIDAC is another member of the thyristor family. Also referred to as a SYDAC (silicon thyristor for alternating current), bi-directional thyristor breakover diode, or more simply a bi-directional thyristor diode, it is technically specified as a bilateral voltage triggered switch. Its operation is similar to that of the DIAC, but SIDAC is always a five-layer device with low-voltage drop in latched conducting state, more like a voltage triggered TRIAC without a gate. In general, SIDACs have higher breakover voltages and current handling capacities than DIACs, so they can be directly used for switching and not just for triggering of another switching device.
The operation of the SIDAC is functionally similar to that of a spark gap, but is unable to reach its higher temperature ratings. The SIDAC remains nonconducting until the applied voltage meets or exceeds its rated breakover voltage. Once entering this conductive state going through the negative dynamic resistance region, the SIDAC continues to conduct, regardless of voltage, until the applied current falls below its rated holding current. At this point, the SIDAC returns to its initial nonconductive state to begin the cycle once again.
Somewhat uncommon in most electronics, the SIDAC is relegated to the status of a special purpose device. However, where part-counts are to be kept low, simple relaxation oscillators are needed, and when the voltages are too low for practical operation of a spark gap, the SIDAC is an indispensable component. ⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡😏
I knew what a Diac was but a Sidac is new to me. Sort of makes me think of a solid state neon bulb.
Kind of missed an opportunity to beef it up a bit by reducing the input resistors and speeding it up.
Not going to do the SIDAC any good life wise, seeing as it is beinmg run here rather well past the ratings. Normally meant to be on for 10 seconds at most every 5 minutes, to ignite a burner. Otherwise you just blow up the sidac from overcurrent, though they are very cheap even retail, looked up by me and it is a 20p UK part. Rated for 0.9A continuous, 4A single pulse, so even here it is being run very hard. You would need to add in a decent SCR and a few more resistors to get it to run continuous, and then upgrade that 2u2 capacitor to one with a pulse rating that is useful. Will make it probably 5 times the volume, and 30 times the price.
i loved that when you said i may have to get destructive there now ! "that's not like you Clive " smash it to bit is what you meant he he he
This transformer is probably for use in a voltage multiplying circuit. A diode on each stage charging a capacitor in a stack of capacitors with output from ground to the final high voltage stage. Old TVs used these to make the CRT anode / cathode high differential voltage..Also called a voltage ladder.
It's for gas ignition.
You killed Thomas. 😆
Love how you touch it to see if you would get a shock from it. ⚡⚡🤣🤣
curious about the power dissipation in those resistors. turns out it is not as simple as I expected to calculate. With his 240 volt 50 Hz power it takes 5 cycles for the capacitor to charge and the thyristor to fire. first cycle it draws an average of 9mA yielding 0.4 Watts. 5th cycle 2.4mA 0.03 Watts. over all 5 4.85mA for about 1/8th Watt. the pulse shouldn't add much.
Thank you for interesting content:) Video suggestion: How headlight height adjuster works, how it knows multiple positions, not just one/off. Following voltage level somehow i think
Sometimes a motorised actuator.
I wonder if there is any high-frequency feedback into the mains from the impulse when the SIDAC discharges.
Interesting video!
I was wondering, is a SIDAC the same thing as a DIAC, which I know from triac dimmer circuits?
Those sparks were a bit underwhelming. But they'd do their job - ignite a stream of gas-air mix from a jet nozzle in a gas-powered device.
We have some households equipped with gas-powered continuous-flow heaters (for tap water) here in Austria, and I specifically remember the one "from my childhood". It had no electrical connections; to ignite the pilot flame, a single electric spark would be given by twisting the knob on a cylindrical gadget. Heavy resistance when turning, and it would suddenly give a very loud "click" that would be amplified by resonance in the flow heater's chassis. Scared the shirt off me the first time i did that! Years later I learned about the piezo-electric effect.
The last gas range we had used pilot lights. Everything we have now is electric. Even the home heating.
So. the sidac works like points in an old car ignition system? Making the primary on the coil suddenly collapse?
Am I the only person who went "WOOO WOOOOOO" at the beginning? 😂
Always wondered how these things worked
Love the tear downs. Done anything with spark modules for ovens or furnaces that have the REIG (re ignition) feature? Fascinating! The flame is detected by a (lowering of resistance of the flame)? itself which turns off sparking. MUCH more interesting
The flame rod system is interesting. It uses the conductivity of a flame.
Primaries may be in series so the first spark won't get all the energy.
It's not normal behaviour for a spark gap to spark at more than one place at a time unless in series.
"i don't think i can get a schock from that"
*Imidiatly touches bare wires to see if the assumption is correct*
XD that was quite funny to me
Very interesting, I’m sure there a few more useful things that could be used for
Vehicle anti theft system 😀
Got one kicking around in my lab, but it doesn't look so awesome. What scale is that - TT? haha
Gotta make a teeny tiny Jacob's ladder with that one.
Never ever heard of these SIDACs.
I guess a sidac, is like a normal diac on steroids! I've built this kind of circuit using a diac triggering a thyristor, but this is a much simpler way to do it. You can also use a ne2 neon, to trigger a thyristor. It does the same thing.
Yeah. It's like a power diac.
I wonder whether spark ignition would be any higher or lower reliability / life as the "hot surface ignitors" I keep replacing every five or six years.
You can simple double the frequency output, by replacing the 1N4007 with a full bridge rectifier and without a smoothing capacitor.
With the 1N4007 in place you get 50 or 60 pulses per second,or once during each cycle, but with a full bridge rectifier without a smoothing capacitor , you get 100 or 120 pulses per second. And i think if you remove the 1N4007 and use a pure DC voltage above 200V , the frequency will go even higher, because the circuit now works like a relay that is powered through the NC contacts.
The discharge frequency is limited by the time constant of the two 5.1K resistors and the 2.2uF capacitor.
You could totally kit-bash that to make it a model train....bonus points if you run the motor off the igniter coil.....
If the supply voltage happend to be below 220V, e.g. in a farmhouse at the far end of a long local distribution line, would the SIDAC fail to trigger? If so, you wouldn't be able to light your gas hob without matches 🙂It might have been more reliable if the SIDAC were set to trigger at around, say, 200V. Would there be any negative side-effect to doing this?
The effective voltage can be below 220v, as long as the peak of the sine wave is over 220v. Even in the worst case, it will still be plenty to trigger it - rectified mains is about 300v.
Is a SIDAC and a DIAC the same?
I remember dials in switch mode power supplies of old (Olivetti M24 Power supplies)
Wonder if the modern ignition coil work on a similar basis as I always fancied making a cattle fence out of one of those…
I thought you had a Hornby train there until I put my glasses on
Clive, put a white dot on your meter selector switch.
That's very interesting. Clive can you make a high voltage spark igniter and film the process?
Reminds me of the time I was still living in my Chinese apartment and the water heater was having HV issues. Each and every time the maintenance man showed up of course the d*mn thing worked only to stop doing so once I went to take a shower.
One day I simply tore the thing open, disconnected the HV ignitor and called the maintenance guy again. 2hrs later I had a new heater.
I have a very similar one of these I salvaged from a 90's gas cooker, with 'Sarico' on it as the brand name.
The six spark output leads go to six separate ceramic insulated ends.
Two outputs have metal mounting brackets and attached to the bracket is a solid wire for the spark to jump to.
These two would have been to ignite the oven and grill, and the other four outputs for the four pot burners.
I assume they would've used the cooker chasis ground connection as the return path of each spark output?
Can you possibly confirm my theory please Big Clive🤔
It’s more likely that each circuit is jumping two spark gaps in series and the appliance chassis just completes the circuit between two of the igniter tips.
@@paulmccoy2908 Thanks Paul. Ah yes, that makes sense, given the way Big Clive just added the wire links to each output terminal pair (either end of each individual transformer output winding) and clipped them to provide a spark gap, and that also jives perfectly with the schematic Clive showed too👌👍
I work in appliances, we call that the train spark module lol.
Subtitles think it's a Psyduck. Like a Pokemon.
Wonder if that can output enough energy to fire one of those aforementioned xenon flash tubes.
I might just get one and try it myself.
Only to strike it, not much intensity directly.