Clever tube igniter circuit with schematic
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- On one hand this cheaply made light is impressive because of how they've managed to strike the tube with the same component that limits current through it. The tube is also run on AC which is also good.
But as always with these types of mini-light, they start the tube cold-cathode style which causes rapid electrode damage. And any loose connection causes arcing and instantly visible electrode sputtering stains inside the tube. This is made somewhat worse by the very sloppy electrical construction which ensures bad connections.
Very interesting to see how they cut corners and got a low component count with standard parts though.
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I love the Big Clive patented capacitor-discharge tester, dab hand on input pins.
Not just for measuring capacitive state of charge, but also to determine if the circuit even has a capacitor. Of course you might have to plug it a few times to get a good point in the sine wave...
1:20 testing with fingers
2:52 "Quite a big capacitor here I should be careful."
Just a bit late for safety thoughts
pretty safe so long as the thing is unplugged and you only use one hand
@@scriptonite2182 "Safety third" is what I normally hear (from AvE, maybe? :-)
Clive finds a random electronic device in his house “ Let’s take it to bits!”
Post it note on fridge ‐> do not take to bits agian.
that standart operation procedure when i was 10y old im opened walkietalkie looking for peoples inside now im oppening for electrocity 🤫
I was JUST thinking, Clive's flat must be FULL of electronic devices made by OTHERS that DON'T work because he took them to bits, and a bunch of devices made by HIM that work perfectly, since he's a great Designer/Constructor! lol
"Let's take it to bits"... the reason I love Clive.
Don't turn it on... TAKE IT APART!!!!!
@@slightlyevolved well, OK. That too. 😊
I love the fact that you have soo much stuff, that you are still surprised when you rummage through it.
There's something very nostalgic about seeing a 20mm fuse in a device.
Not only that, but it’s glass, too.
These "Lampi" lights are quite common in Germany, I know the from the 80s and 90s with fluorescent tubes in them.
i agree...
The Lampi fluorescent fixtures are also common in America, usually found with F20T12 or F30T12 tubes intended for general lighting purposes.
Lampi is a German company and manufactures lots of different lights, like office lights, kitchen lights, halogen spotlights and many more.
A brand, rather than a company, I think.
A German trade magazine says it was from a company called Korte AG, from the former West Germany, until bankruptcy in 2004.
The brand was aquired by Lite-Licht GmbH in 2008, and used in their "StarLicht" range.
I saw that plug and said "that's a German lamp, Euro Plug with no earth connection"...
@@ann_onn see also web.archive.org/web/20030812130233/www.lampi.com/Home/Company/About.html
@@ann_onn it was odd to see this lamp in my subscription box... my dad worked at Lamptronic (closely related to Lampi) for years and we had a few of these lamps at home :D
@@ann_onn You're absolutely right! But it started as a company Lampi Korte GmbH, founded by Henry Korte, and later also Lampi Corp. in the U.S. if I remember correctly.
Lampi became a brand of the later Korte AG. Now it all belongs to Globaltronics, I believe...
(lamp clearly has an EU style plug) Clive: I tried it on 110volts and it didn’t light 🤦♂️
American? Someone's had too many soda stream fizzy wines today :-P
That's cool, basically it starts out as a voltage multiplier/doubler then "switches gears" using 2 active components, one of which is the non linear behavior of the bulb itself.
I do think that an introduction to electronics course would do well as a second channel. You did a video way back, but it would be great to follow along with these videos
Go check out Dave at EEVBlog. He has tutorials on just about everything from beginners DC theory all the way up to FPGAs.
Yay! I've watched enough of your videos to be able to say "that would work as a voltage doubler" before you explained it. I must be learning something. Thanks Clive.
If I'm not mistaking, that big yellow capacitor has manufacturer logo on it, and it was made by famous Iskra electronic component maker from Kranj, Slovenia, former Yugoslavia. So, this lamp is most probably a Yugoslavian product, made by FEP (Factory of Electric Products) from Donji Milanovac - factory known to produce many iron ballasts for lighting back in the time, as well as small electric motors and the like. It very likely is an imported design, Thorn UK, Ilesa Italy, or the like, as well as the tube, which was (if I remember well) not produced locally, although slightly bigger 6W and I think 8w T5 tubes were made by Tesla lamp factory in Yugoslavia. These lights continued to be made in the 1990's as well, and were often given as promotional giveaway items of domestic brands, often with printed logo on the side.
I always click when I see a new Bigclive teardown video! 🤗
I'm weird but sometimes come back to the videos on the shelf for fun.
Here I'm noticing your comment about it possibly lasting longer than some of the LEDs. Guessing it's because of the tendency to overdrive them? I've already "hacked" many of the bulbs in my house with modifying the on board resistors dropping them to a quarter of their original draw.
So GREAT! It's just like you say with the light output being much more than you'd think at the lower wattages.
You're a lifesaver Big Clive! LOL We need to chip in and get you a cape!
Loved the LED comment at the end. True though!
Gas discharge lamps intrigue me. I've got an old soviet xenon tube that was designed to run directly off of mains voltages, a 4kw long-arc xenon tube, and I haven't had the chance to mess with it yet, but it's on my todo list.
Definitely 1980's technology. I have one of those in brown without the starter button (110vac). And yes, the fluorescent tube ends are blackened.
I had a similar one of these back in the 90's, but the American version. it put out so little light, I just used it for a nightlight in my kitchen, so if I felt like a midnight snack I could work my way to the kitchen without turning on a lamp, and avoid cracking a toe on furniture.
i remember having one of those as a night light in the late '80s... greetings from germany ;)
If u encounter something like that cover again wedge things in along the edge as it lifts so it can’t clip back in
Toothpicks would work on this but u got it to cooperate without
You can replace the diode and 22k resistor with a 200v sidac (K2000G for example) to have a nice preheat start. In fact the 110V version of this light used a sidac as even with the doubler the tube couldn't starts reliably with cold cathodes.
Perfect system for traveling and neading some light in room or bathroom for the time. Would last for many small trips probably. In the EU...
You can get black light tubes
They are made by TranSylvania and are vampire safe. 🔥
I never noticed that the battery operated camping lanterns that I have had with these smaller fluorescent light bulbs didn't come with a small replaceable igniter. They must all have had a built-in igniter like this one. The fluorescent light bulbs were replaceable on them. Strange that they didn't use a cob led strip or some other kind of led light in the light you have got there. Maybe it was made before the led lights were invented.
It was made before white LEDs got cheap enough to make it to consumer devices.
@@acmefixer1 Or even bright enough, I remember a lot of early LED flashlights and house lights and they were extremely dim. I think I've got an early LED GU10 bulb around here somewhere for installing in ceiling fixtures and it maybe puts off the equivalent of a 5w incandescent in a sickly cold white color.
2:27 this camera angle has trained me to immediately expect a cement rock with sharpie on it to be the next step to opening a device after realizing there are no screws
Possibly it will last longer than many of this cheap LED lamps. :-P
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed is king or something
they get a little over-zealous with the planned obsolescence.
Round mains pegs on an American plug? Sir, this is a Wendy's...
I had a 1000 watt Mercury Vapor lamp that in addition to the probe-start resistor, it also had a resistor and diode inside the glass envelope! I finally figured out that as with this circuit, the resistor and diode would charge up the power-factor capacitor that was in series between the lamp and the ballast to help obtain the voltage needed to strike the probe in the lamp and start conduction.
If the capacitor is in series with the lamp, then it would be part of the ballast and not just simply power factor correction (at least that's the case with North American CWA/CWI ballasts), but it does have the benefit of power factor correction.
PF is 0.16 for this lamp, so the (in-series cap dropper) cap seems to be doing the opposite of PF correction :-)
Remember, I am talking about a high power CWA transformer based ballast such as the M47 which includes a PF capacitor in series with the lamp, and usually scores a PF of .9 or 90% Such a circuit is not a capacitor dropper circuit, the cap is there to correct the PF which typically scores a .47 if the cap is not used (such as the old 175MV lamps.) Old MV and some Metal Halide lamps do not use an ignitor, but instead are "probe start" and in cold weather may need a bit higher of a voltage to get going.
@@JDfromWitness I am aware of that, but with CWA ballasts (unlike older HX ballasts) the capacitor also doubles as part of the ballast (like with the lamp being taken apart in this video, except in that case, the capacitor is the ballast), so removing it could end up damaging the ballast and/or lamp (improper power regulation beyond what a mercury vapor lamp can tolerate). Now, some HX ballasts have a capacitor, but with those, the capacitor is solely for power factor correction and nothing more. Another thing is you can't expect something in series with something else to not affect what's in series with it, so even if the capacitor is relatively large in capacity, that will still have an impact on the lamp, even if you don't seem to think it does.
At the end of the day, I really don't want to see you or anyone else accidentally kill their lamps/gear due to something that can be avoidable, as right now, anyone who reads your comment who has a similar ballast with say, a dead capacitor, will think that they can bypass it, and it will do no harm to the ballast or lamp, and with gear and lamps that are becoming less common by the day thanks to the rise or LEDs, and the fact that mercury vapor ballasts have been banned since 2008 (banned as in new ones can't be imported or distributed, not possessed), means that whatever few that still exists because someone found it neat and decided to keep it for that reason need to take good care of it to ensure it lasts a long time.
I have a bunch of Lampi lamps that should be like 20 to 30 years old. They were very cheap but still work perfectly.
Edit: Wow, thats a clever circuit. Ive never seen a fluorescent tube driven by a capacitive dropper.
Nice to see something other than LED's
Really fascinating what can be done with a few passive components running on AC.
You can replace this resistor-diode ignitor with standard glow tube fluorescent starter. 4-22W one should work
Nope. Standard starter needs choke to generate starting high voltage peak (due induction discharge).
@@adamw.8579
Nope. For this size and wattage inductive kick is not required
@@mikigry9838 Maybe this shortest tubes should lit without kick. In my practice always was standard circuit (ballast and starter) or electronic ballast with starting function. Latest fluorescent lamp enclosures had electronic driven by integrated circuit (no flicker lighting) suitable for workshops with moving machines (without stroboscope effect).
We had exactly the same light. Also no idea where it came from. But as the cathode was dying and the whole thing felt dodgy, I was happy to finally toss it out.
How true, florescent do outlast most LED's. Need to do a led vs. Gas discharge lamp comparison.
Metal-halogen discharge lamps are way more durable... and expensive too. Cheap consumer LED lamps have same shitty RC powering circuit and are quick destroyed by poor cooling and high current peaks. Good brand and more expensive LEDs have constant current switching supply and last tens of thousands hours.
Now I'm curious what the peak current through the tube is with and without the current limiting resistors. It's a simple enough thing, maybe I'll build one and see.
It would be a series of spikes limited mainly by the capacitor impedance.
Wow, that’s super clever simple circuitry. It does a great job of (poorly) accomplishing a complicated task.
... boss? This sounds like my last performance review.
"I'll show you..""
gives way
"there we go."
👌👍
It has a European plug on it and Clive thinks it's american 🤣🤣 come on Clive, i hope that was a joke 🙂
Some florescent lamps have weird plugs like that.
European but not british.
Yeah, that surprised me too
Who's supposed to be more offended by this, Euros or Yanks? 😂
@@tmmtmm I like your rakishly-angled pins.
Apparently, that design was originally an American 120v plug, which didn't catch on in the states.
It's pretty amazing how simple things become the closer you get to a Dollar Tree.
Lampi!! Years ago I had a roommate who was an electrician, and he was so heartbroken that the only fixture he could get for a particular professional application was called "Lampi". To this day I call any cheap fixture Lampi in his honor.
hate to admit you reeled me in with "fartacular"
I would LOVE to found one of these tiny cfl lights with ballast and everything 😍…anyway have a nice day 🙂
always loved flourscent lamps, the luminace , the way they function & everything else,now almost impossible to find cause being replaced by leds clever circuit elimating the ballsat.
DO HAVE one new in package made for US 120v/60hz. Used another one that did not last long at all. INTERNAL components are: 33 ohm 10 watt resistor (ceramic) , large orange cap marked 275J 250v , diode, rocker switch . SO the 120v ac lead goes though CAp, tube end1a. the filament1, end1b then diode, then tube end2a, filament, end2b then 33 ohm, rocker switch, then power lead. Less circuitry than one shown. The tube has no pins, it has leads. Case held together with clips. "Liberty Lights" mini Fluorescent Night light. US-PAR Enterprises INC Chino California 91710-5149. . Model ML-400 120v 60hz 3.5 watt UPC code 0 25066 00400 7.
"I should be careful here, I can see that big capacitor" (puts fingers on both plug strips)
same tube type that micromark used on their 3 in one torches problem with those was the batteries went flat in no time & the tube burned out quickly too
Nice explanation. You forgot to mention that this device when plugged in but not turned on it doubles as a power corrector (with the capacitor over the input terminals). (;-) The marketeers forgot to mention that big selling point...
Clive goes back in time to the 1930s and the heyday of fluorescent lights. Except they didn't have solid state diodes back then. They didn't have film capacitors that small, either. I think the circuits used in the CFLs would be better.
Or best, just use LEDs. 🤗🤗
I see asymetric starting wear, so when it won't strike you can flip the tube around and get some more life out of it.
Congratulations on the point eight megasubs!
The short tubes have a low ignition voltage. Once ignited, the current must be limited.
With the small values you do this with a capacitor.
These lamps were popular in Germany in the 1990s.
That is the same circuit that used to be in flourescent tube inspection lamps for cars.
Called the "pracdes" circuit.
Congrats on 800K subs.
Many older flourescents need a grounded reflector nearby to light. A hand on the bulb can also start them. This one has the long circuit board nearby which is probably enough.
Man I love gas discharge lamps... I've gone on some kind of spree purchasing neon bulbs and indicators, and other gas bulbs/lights because they are fuckin awesome and it sucks seeing them go away. I have gas bulbs older than me no joke that still run just fine (I'm only thirty but still) last year I stocked up on a ton of incandescent bulbs of various voltage and size and now gas bulb/tubes. It's weird seeing everything get killed off for "better" things. I have several or a lot 🤔 of crt tubes and tvs because they are awesome but shh my fiance will roll her eyes 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I know they're so amazing! I love the different colors and glows you can get from different phosphors, and I like the high voltage that sometimes comes with them.
I've started collecting CRTs lately. I had some friends come over and she was going on about it in that 'sigh.. what are you gonna do' kind of way.. "What do you have now, like.. 20 CRTs?" My immediate thought was.. sweet, if that's what she thinks I'm up to, I can go get a few more CRTs! 🤣
@@nickwallette6201 LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣 that's how my fiance is haha she only knows of 3/4 of the large ones and one small one haha. I have maybe 24 with screens the size of my hand or smaller and a few larger hidden away. Nobody makes them anymore and most people don't seem to give a crap about them anymore. So I figured why not use them for various things and keep the rest in case anyone is ever looking for one. I'm lucky though because I've come across a lot of them by working with TV stations and a few from radio stations locally.
Man, I really wanted to see the induction lamp take off, but I don't think it will...Since LEDs have taken over instead. 😥
@@bryan8735 That would be awesome, I guess you're right they seem to have become a thing in the wrong time. Light is awesome and I'll collect and use any odd light I can 🤣
Yeesh...that is an _awful_ circuit. "We don't need no stinking switching circuit!" 🙄
It'd have been much better if it were a "manual start" type, like one used to see on older fluorescent desk lamps, where there's a start button you hold in for a second or two, let go, and the tube(s) ignite. Better for tube life, and minimal cost difference.
I bought a "modern" high end magnifier lamp that had that, and it confused me at first. I actually bought it as a customer returned faulty, for a good price and I found nothing wrong with it. I can only assume the original purchaser could not work out how to turn it on
The tube gets DC even when running which is really bad news for mercury migration.
@@ianhosier4042 turn the tube around after a few months...
@@eDoc2020 even the smallest DC component will cause mercury migration over time but the biggest problem will be sputtering due to lack of cathode heating. Those small tubes had a notoriously short life, of course at the time I owned one of those things I didn't know why they rapidly blackened especially with cheap batteries inserted. Things are too easy these days with white LEDs!
I just replaced manual start fluorescents with LED bulbs with zero regrets. The old bulbs would light up when I walked by (static electricity), they'd buzz, and I had to hold the ON button to get it to go and pound the OFF button to get it to turn off. All problems gone with the LED bulbs, but I did have to put a PIC microprocessor in there to work with the old fashioned switch. Crazy switch, with momentary contacts only (one set of NC, one set of NO).
This video is going to my RUclips favourite.
This circuit can be used for 4W UV-C fluorescent tube.
Since those tubes aren't cheap, using a cheap circuit like this that reduces their life is a false economy.
I have a slightly older one. Same brand, brown case, no switch, no slots to easily replace the lamp. I think it uses a resistive dropper folded up in the bottom casing, but I' not sure now. Once I find it, I hope to remember to post a link.
This is the first time in ages I've noticed you saying "I'm not really sure" ;o)
Has European plug and carries the CE-mark. Must be American. :-P
Taking apart old electric grass trimmers and watching some clive today, really felt the pain of the diffuser putting itself back!
I didn't read all the comments, but nobody noticed the switch in the schematic is in the wrong place? It should be in serie with the diode, right?
Like now, the tube itself is disconnected from mains.
This lamp was sold in various German hardware stores in the 1990s. The manufacturer was the company Korte Licht:
Lampi Korte GmbH
Großwolder Strasse 60-68
26810 Ihrhove
Im German born in 1995. Those were pretty common as night lights when I was a small Kid. The 20 year old one from my parents still works.
I didn't think the really small length tubes like these were a standard part. Surprised to see a Sylvania lamp in there.
Yep, thats a quality tube. Might be an exchanged one for the blackened oe type.
This old style T5 came in 4W, 6W, 8W and 13W, if I remember correctly. That is before every size of fluorescent tube went to T5 before being phased out for LED.
They were hard to find in big box stores, but i could always find them in smaller hardware stores. The lamps were common in camping lanterns, and other small electronics. I have some old document cameras that powered the lamp assembly from 12v. Perfect for a small solar system, but I never got around to installing them on my system.
My dad had the exact same one for years, I think he got it from Germany or Switzerland. One day he asked me to fix it and I found the main capacitor to be faulty (after many years of service and at least the fluorescent tube replaced 2 or 3 times over the years) Unfortunately I was unable to find a capacitor with a similar value and a compatible form factor. I'm guessing they have been manufactured specifically for Lampi.
Merci 👈
I've seen newer hopi meters on ebay by the hundreds, might be fun looking into
Can you make a video about a induction lamp? I really wanna know how the ballast/lamp works!!
Clivey! Here for the Beard!
I'm working on my Clivetea, his funnel as a template trick works like a charm.
Good Monday afternoon to you sir from Wellington Somerset
i kinda have something like that but its just a more standard to 6volt dc type as well runs on battery. though i like florescent light tubes the tube was a horrible cool white and was is cause ends did burnt up after a many uses. i wish i could find some new tubes like warm white rather of this size but it seems harder to come across now.
Can you find some warm-white 5V LED strip? Should be an easy conversion, if so.
probably something i could see just for fun
If the fuse blows could the 33nF capacitor be left holding a charge?
Yes, but only with the cover off and it's a low value.
Also, if the fuse blows there's likely a short circuit that would discharge the capacitor anyways :)
So the peak reverse voltage reaches 650V (2V-peak), and what if it still not able to cause breakdown.
I guess that's the reason it didn't turn-on on 120V supply.
And if the cathodes were heated, there's a fair chance it'd have worked on 120V.
@@theskett For sure. According to ANSI C78.81 this type of tube, when heated, will strike at between 108 and 210 volts, well below the ~320 volts the circuit would provide.
Try a tear down video of 'Life in Motion'(LIM) UV-C Honey motion light.
It's a puck light for cupboards that switches from white light to UV-C after no movement for 10 seconds and eluminates for 2 minutes with UV-C.
Lol did you accidentally bag a hotel night light 😂😆
It just... fell onto the towels in his bag.
Never noticed this before, but the Hopi apparently measures "frequence"! lol
Congratulations on 800k subscribers.
BC: I thought it was one I bought in America...
Me: Not likely - not with that plug.
Big Clive!
I wonder how much longer it will be possible to buy the tubes for these lamps?
I expect no one will be making them soon due to no more demand for them. Sad.
there is a quite high demand on these small 4 and 8W tubes as they are used in many older emergency exit signs/lights at least here in Germany
i can't find this exact tube at a decent price, i found it locally and it was like 7€, online it was kinda the same and the cheap china doesn't seem to stock it... this is the 15cm one, the 20cm one costs like 1.5€ instead... but they still can be found... there was a shortage of the UV germicidal ones during the last months, you know why
American plugs have flat, parallel pins, which makes them easy to identify.
And easy to bend, and easy to get shocked when you grip around a stuck plug...
@@Iosens Yeah, but cheap to make.
_shrug_
Would be great to take down a Wi-Fi power line & explain how it works. Thanks Clive
That switching mechanism, that's pretty, erm, well, it's janky, but I guess it works... :P
And most euro sockets have no switch on them = you would have to unplug it to turn it off 😐
Janky is another word I'll have to investigate.
That's is an Italian plug,simple/small electronic has only 2 pin (L and N) and more complex device 3 pin (Earth) in the middle :)
(We have 220-240V 50hz here)
also here on Brazil, but we also have 120V
...isn't it the same for most of mainland europe?
@@Okurka. yep - for double isolated low power (2.5A max) items only. Partially sleeved pins for touch protection when used in full sized round Shuko sockets (the recessed nature of the socket and tight fit with the full size plug eliminates the need for sleeves on the pins of the full size plug.)
So, the heating elements never get heated from the circuit, right?
No proper heating.
Most remarkably, it says 49.92Hz. That's quite off from 50Hz.
Seems people are using up a lot of power.
@@ZacabebOTG Andy from Photonicinduction is back in the UK.... so there will be some losses in the powergrid 🤣🤣🤣
Oh, Big Clive... please be harsh! ;-)
They're on to you BC. With the new labelling system out now, you will start to see this on the packaging "大克萊夫證明" You passed this test (eventually) but they're just seeing how far you'll go?
How to check if a device with a capacitative dropper has a discharge resistor for safety the Clive way.
1) Unplug the device
2) Immediately touch the pins
3) If you don't wake up on the floor or in the hospital, the device has a discharge resistor and the pins are safe to touch
Although I have seen many other "starter" circuits on magazines over the years this one is the first I see using only pathetic elements (i.e. no triac)...
You know I'm a sucker for clever!
Is it possible to have an even worse power factor?
Isn't it fun when you get old enough that you can buy surprises for yourself and hide them for later?
I’ve got a battery powered T5 fluorescent light from the 80’s must of got it with tiger tokens from esso. Seem to remember the ends started to go black after a while
Might be time to replace the tube and inverter, with a couple pieces of LED strip; cheaper than a new tube? :-)
Not sure where this would be useful. If I plug this into any of my outlets, I'll get illumination behind my dresser, under my workbench, behind the curtains, in that gap between the fridge and the wall... etc.
Also hallways, and near the bathroom sink
Back lighting my fridge, dresser, and shelves sounds kinda fun 🤣 might have to try it just to see
You could use a multi-socket extension cord hanged up on the wall
Outlets in the hallway and in every room about 30cm from the floor are common in GER. (For vacuuming).
So you can have a dimly illuminated way to the toilet. Enough to take a pee and get back to bed without broken toes and screaming your partner awake. Not really a longlife design but clever to use.
Haha.. I also found mine a few weeks ago. It is the exact same model just in black. And I also have no Idea where I have it from.
Why didn't they put the switch before the fuse,? it's taking power when off
hmm, do they still sell 2 prong ddevices in .uk?thought everything went 3 prong?
It seems to be aimed at Europe.