Please don't take this video down. I'll be sharing it around, because it is something that more people desperately need to hear. Thank you so much for your work.
@@dansaber4427 Totally agree, I would never argue against that. That's why cultural shift within Christian circles and reinvigoration of what it means to be Christian in the material world is crucial to progress.
I really appreciate your perspective! As a gay person who tried to "pray away the gay" in my youth (to no avail). If more people knew that being gay doesn't mean you're going to hell then we'd have a larger swath of people making the conversion to believing in Christ.
I do believe being gay is a sin but Lgb people still should be treated with respect because it’s not like they’re worse than everyone else. Everyone commits sin even if they don’t want to.
You can't bend the rules. You're gay and you're loved, but maybe, you're not a Christian... Yet. To be a true Christian you must resign to the homosexual intercourse and lifestyle. I know it'll be your biggest struggle but our Father is holding you, he's got your back so you won't fight alone. Yet you have to make a decision.
Thanks for all your videos on this topic, So many look to scripture without thinking twice, Peace be with you in Jesus name, This topic cannot be talked about enough.
I would add one more reason why these beliefs still have a strong hold over people is a desire not to have to say "We were wrong." If people believe that their moral teachings are divinely revealed, immutable decrees for all time and all people, then saying they were wrong calls into question that whole system.
Agreed. It reminds me of how the Bible was used as a means to enslave black people. The Bible was also used to prove that the Earth was the center of the universe. Calling those prevailing theories of their time into question would render many to have to reexamine their faith and question tenets they held in high esteem. Not everyone can handle that type of rumbling to their faith.
I would also add that a faith that hasn’t been tested for its validity is a flimsy faith. So many of our Bible heroes stories are about facing the testing of their faith. Is God real? Can I trust what I believe He told me? What if He isn’t real? That is a necessary part of the journey. That uncertainty is what allows the God of the universe to prove (not because He has to) to the person He is who He is
@endswithme555 Don't you mean gods depicted in religious texts: the transposing of a ruling elite or religious leadership's rational to support their methods? Markers, such as gaslighting, threat, fables with examples of outcomes for disobedience, reward for compliance and cover stories to assert credibility, are all there.
Every time I watch one of Dan's videos, even when I know what information he is going to present, I am still mind blown from how well articulated his arguments are.
Work on Saturday? That does not compute. Gentiles are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was only given to the Israelites. The Sabbath command does not apply to Gentiles.
@@Chomper750 Shabbat is in Laws of Torah from Sinai. True it does not apply to gentiles. No does kosher and many other laws. No rabbis made up Sabbath on 7th day.. Mosaic laws ? The seven Noachide laws apply to gentiles. As per Torah Tanakh Talmud. So you pick and choose what laws you like or reject.. Your man God idol trinity human sacrifice calvary died to replace all the laws your church fathers claim.. Another bizarre theology. Then came Quran .. תודה רבה שלום Oy vey
“It’s not bigoted because…” Reminds me of someone telling me he was not transphobic because he was “Not afraid of trans people, and phobia means fear.” 😒
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 phobia is fairly often used to describe an irrational aversion to something, so I would say that particular shoe still fits 🤷♂️
Isn’t it more bigoted to tell someone they are a bigot simply for holding a Christian viewpoint on behavioral guidelines for members of their church? When Muslims tell me it is a sin to eat pork or drink alcohol in their culture, I don’t get upset and tell them to deny their faith. All organizations have rules that prohibit those unwilling to follow them.
@@genotriana3882 *//"Isn’t it more bigoted to tell someone they are a bigot simply for holding a Christian viewpoint on behavioral guidelines for members of their church?"//* Not if they Actually Are Bigoted for it, by virtue of them continually attempting to Force such ideals onto Society At-Large, onto the People, into Law, and into Education; utterly Outside of their own personal little congregation. *//"When Muslims tell me it is a sin to eat pork or drink alcohol in their culture, I don’t get upset and tell them to deny their faith."//* Muslims in the U.S. aren't Trying to Write, Enact, and Pass Legislation that would Limit, Stifle, or Prevent everyone else (of every Non-Muslim Worldview) from eating pork or drinking alcohol. So, blatantly false analogy, as we actively have Large Groups of Christians trying to do just such things to bring the Nation closer to a Theocratic Dictatorship.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 False. The notion of homophobia or transphobia refers not just to Literal Direct Fear of OTHER, External, Homosexuals and Trans individuals; but it Also refers to the person's Own Internalized Irrational FEAR of the possibilities that they IMAGINE as a result of such individuals (i.e. "What if find out that * *I* * Like Penis?!?" or "What if I start thinking that * *I* * am Mentally Feminine?!?", and other similar-such examples, etc). Just as someone with Arachnaphobia need not necessarily just Only be irrationally frightened by the Literal Sight of Spiders, but can even be by the mere Thought of them too. By these measures, most of them Right-Wing Evangelicals (who are Very Anti-LGBTQ+) are EXTREMELY Phobic.
Nicely said. I have no problem with starting with dictionary definitions if the intent is to get everyone on the same page with an agreement on what a word means. But it shouldn’t be taken as some kind of unassailable authority. The Bible is like a Rorschach test. An individual’s interpretation of the Bible says more about that individual’s psychology than it does about the Bible, although the Bible is so vague and conflicting in spots that it lends itself easily to that. If the owner’s manual of my car, where as unclear and open to interpretation as the Bible, then Subaru would’ve been sued out of existence years ago.
Thank you, Dan. As a former evangelical pastor, now out and queer, this is very, very meaningful to hear spoken with such clarity, precision, and authority.
You want God AND you also want your deviant desires satisfied. You can't have both. It's either your D**k or the Lord. Is God not worth the sacrifice?? Do not sleep at night comfortably thinking that your homosexual acts are embraced by God. Sorry, but you are deluded. The only authority is God and it is he who speaks with clarity and precision. Dan McClellan won't be there to save you from God's wrath should you choose to adopt him as "authority."
@@zoebirss9944what made you finally accept that part of yourself and live that part of who you were while leaving your pastoral profession? Was it your own revelation? Study? Did you read anything that gave you an aha moment?
Any time someone says “the purpose of sex is procreation” I just automatically assume they don’t have a very pleasurable sex life and it makes me sad for them and the people they have sex with
@@edmundsishange3608 main i mean not as the most often. if it’s like that then you’re right. but main as in the most important. well if we don’t procreate humanity ends lol
@@GustavoMaldonado42 humanity is going to end at some point. Ending because we didn’t procreate is probably the least violent and horrific way for humanity to end
I do realize and understand this. But, I also realize this means those who don't will receive the condemnation of Hell. So, I'm going to keep spreading the Gospel. Because of love.
@@eurech I'll agree with the indoctrination, as people should put in good doctrine, but delusion? We'll start with the fact that even secular scholars believe Jesus lived and was crucified. His followers also believed He was resurrected and ascended to heaven(as all of them were persecuted and most were killed and no one dies for a lie they know is a lie) add in the high improbability of a mass hallucination event such as what His followers claimed to have seen and Luke's account showing someone who is close up to the facts and tries to get even minor details correct... Paul's vision of Jesus as someone who would have no reason to have a hallucination of a person he had never met and thought said person was a heretic... and then the cosmological argument(all things with a beginning have something that began them, the universe and time both have beginnings, thus requiring a timeless, spaceless, immaterial being to start them, all of which applies to God)... but with all that lined up and more can be added... is it really all that delusional?
@@christsdisciple3105some people pick and choose things out of the Bible to live by. Not everyone lives EXACTLY how the Bible tells us to. Therefore? We won’t all die sin free. We still need to accept Jesus Christ as our lord and savior, and live as closely as we can to his light, but none of us will ever be 100% deserving of heaven and be 100% clean. We will all die with sins still, because that’s human nature and why we are deserving to go to Hell. But staying as close to God’s light as we can will save us, even if we aren’t completely clean..
I exclaimed a spontaneous, "Wow!" when he started down the path of, "Sex outside of marriage is wrong because there isn't the premeditation for creating offspring."
Talking about this so called sin’, I wish I could remember who it was that said “What makes you think that someone else’s sin is greater than yours?” I used that line one time and was unfriended.
Well, if you see a guy punch an innocent civilian to d e a t h at the front of your eyes and you claim never having done something that could compete with this action, we can argue about your sins equivalencies....
Can you debate other Christian’s that disagree with you on this topic? I only see you respond to tic tok videos and never have a face to face conversation with someone who disagrees with this. But I think I know why that conversation will never take place.
Bro are you okay What would you win if he sat by the table with people who claim certain things to be wrong bc they are wrong? I dont see you sitting and conversating with anyone face to face. Practice what you preach, dude.
"It's not a sin to be homosexual, it's a sin to engage in homosexual activity". Oh, so I'm ok just as long as I pretend to be someone else and deny my own feelings. Glad to hear it. That makes it so much better
There’s those who would say turn to Jesus as he will create you a new being. I’m female and I’m with a woman, I’ve prayed time and time again. People just want me to “pray the gay away.”
@@SuicideboysGrey59I’ve been praying for 30 years…it hasn’t gone anywhere. In fact it’s gotten stronger!! People who aren’t experiencing this but yet still want to legislate against it, preach against it or create videos or lead campaigns against it baffle me?
@@strawberriesstar That seems to be what it is in the Bible, innit; yet most Christians at least the conservative ones can't stand the very ideas of gay romance and lesbian romance either. They think everything that has to do with being LGBTQ+ is sinful, even the basic urges are because they're "thought crimes". 🙄
I love how you absolutely dismantle bigoted views with proper evidence. So many people don't think and just follow the bigoted interpretations or jump through hoops to justify their beliefs instead of just... not being bigoted. As if it's so hard to just let other people love who they love.
What evidence? He did nothing in this video but ignore other passages denouncing homosexuality while telling others they are using fallacies. Dude did literally nothing but pander to folks like yourself.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 He literally did no such thing. He pointed out how Several biblical authors, especially of the New Testament, absolutely weren't against homosexuality Because of the notion that it's "non-procreative" (Evidenced Rebuttal). He Addressed how Biblical Authors, of their differing time periods, saw homosexuality and Why they most likely saw it that way, as they were against it for the sake of it seeming to favor Male Submissiveness (the Opposite of ignoring other passages). He refuted the notion that it was "Non-Natural". And he further pointed out how the Only Real Reason the anti-homosexual view is held to Religiously in the Modern day is because it favors their geopolitical and/or ideological Agendas. So, it could be argued that your Only problem with it is that it didn't Pander and Kowtow to Your Personal Ideological and/or Geopolitical Biases... and you Hate that... because you WANT to hold to Religious Views that are Faulty, Unjustified, and Bigoted... OR because you already Do hold to such views, and have invested into them for a Long Time.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 another ignoramus telling a biblical scholar saying he’s wrong when you can’t even read the original texts in Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek.
@@TechySeven .....Call me a "bigot"...I hate the "community" of PEDOPHILES too ( NOT the people ) and the "community" of MURDERERS as well .....poor me .
Indeed. It would also mean that a man or woman who suffered some sort of injury or illness or infirmity like simple aging that prevented them from having children through no fault of their own would be sinning even if they were married. Yeah, good luck with trying to get that one past fellow believers. "Sorry, your wife has entered menopause. Yes, I'm aware it's early for her, and she's an astounding good looking woman who looks like a cover model a decade younger, but no more sex for you."
If you saw an amputee, you wouldn't think "this disproves that the nature of humans is to have 2 legs!" You would automatically know something went wrong with this person because people have 2 legs. Likewise, the fact that some couples can't have children doesn't disprove the fact that it is the nature of man/woman sex to produce children. It is the nature of any other corrupted form of sexuality to not possibly produce children. This does show the damage to society as a whole should homosexuality run rampant and it's a strong argument to prove homosexuality is contrary to the law of nature.
Im so happy I found your channel Dan! I consider myself a gay christian and refuse to put myself around people who make me feel like I’m an abomination or I should be ashamed of who I am. Can you do some videos on witchcraft, how to move through the world if the people you love dabble in divination but you still care about them and want them in your life being a Christian? If you have made those videos already, please direct me to them. Thank you again for all of your efforts and explanations ❤ it is truly refreshing to see someone with CREDENTIALS speak about things such as this.
This apologetic argument is like some sort of abstraction bait-and-switch. On the one hand, they defensively say that they aren't targeting any group of people -- which is suggesting that they don't want to use abstraction, but instead focus on the concrete alone. But then they target that same group using a classification system which is entirely abstract and not in the least bit concrete.
I get that you are against bigotry and that's great... but why do you feel the need to proclaim that the bible isn't explicitly against homosexuality when it clearly is?
Not at all. The concept of homoxesuality did not exist back then. They did not classify people according to who they were attracted but to suitability to role based on social hierarchy. So you hear "males with males" and think "homoxesuality". They heard "males with males" and thought "sucks for the guy on bottom". The issue in the Bible is that because women were assumed inferior, it denigrated a male to be put in the woman's role. It had nothing to do with it being "the same secs", much less homoxesuality which they knew little about.
@@MusicalRaichuThe Bible states that any sex outside of the marriage between a man and a woman is sin. Homosexual acts are therefore sinful You may say different societies had no concept of homosexuality but these societies didn't make the Bible, God did the Bible is God's word and God is all knowing therefore he knows all concepts.
@@bittuhgenious9236 The Bible spans many centuries and cultures and contains no consistent marital or secs ethics. The predominant view of in the OT is one man and as many women and secs slaivs as he can afford. Marriage involved a business transaction between a man and a girl's father - that's girl as in child. "Biblical marriage" is illegal today. The Bible says nothing against premarital secs, particularly by men, although it was a problem when it made girls unsellable. The Bible was written by human beings using the brains God gave them. Some (including me) believe there is divine influence, but what is written is limited to the concepts the human authors had at the time. If you understand the texts you think are about homoxesuality using the original authors' concepts, they actually make sense. The NT references don't even describe homoxesuality, yet judgemental people enjoy condeming innocent victims using texts that don't even describe them. It's a disgrace.
@@Trotoloko There's things in the Bible we disagree with now. But an obsolete Israelite taboo against a particular way of having secs, a stereotypical exposition of pagan excesses and a word of unknown meaning do not constitute "explicitly against homoxesuality". It only became that since in the 70s when a mistranslation became viral.
Dictionaries are great for defining one's terms. They are definitely _not_ great at measuring the reasonableness of one's arguments. It's a list of words and meanings, not a debate judge. Well done to point this out, Dr. McLellan.
Dictionaries aren't actually great for defining terms because all they can capture is general usage. Terms in biblical criticism should be scholarly and specific. Defining your terms is indeed step one, but the resources you use to construct said definition have to be relevant to the field.
@@SethRGray I disagree. In any debate, we have to define our terms. If we're to avoid arguments over the definitions of our terms, we need to use a definition for our words that isn't reasonably contested. And yes, using the definition most relevant to the field, (for example, calf for a podiatrist means something different than it does for a rancher), is appropriate. Otherwise it's kind of a false equivocation. I think you and I are trying to make different points though.
The arguments that homosexual sex is a sin because the acts don't produce children would have to mean that an infertile straight couple would be committing sin if they had sex.
Those who use this argument are mistaken. The design may reflect the capacity for producing children in a way that homosexuality doesn't, but the idea that sex has to produce children to be approved by God is contrary to scripture.
No. Because a man and woman got married to produce life, to Respect and Provide and to LOVE each other, in spite of all. If they cannot produce life, it is a circumstance. Marriage is an institution with principles, if one of those principles, by natural circumstances is not happening, the Institution does not fall apart, because there are the other 2 principles still supporting the Marriage.
@@nenabaez5915 I mean...nice try, but the logic is sound in the original person's comment. What you've presented is just apologetics attempting to get around the problem.
Always speak so intelligently and well versed but I can never seem to figure out where you stand. I know you're simply educating the masses but I'd like to take a deeper dive.
I thought "Woe unto those who have children during the second coming" meant that since their will be so many calamities and power-abuse by humankind during the last days, humans would be exposed to painful natural earth elements, abuse of power by men, and would have to endure extremely hard outer-world stuff. Not that it would be wrong to have the kids, just that it would be hard to watch your kids suffer, it would be hard to have to take care of your children when it's hard to take care of your self, and all that jazz. I didn't think that had anything to do with Paul's assertion that singleness can be more holy than being married.
"Woe unto those who..." isn't a statement of condition as in "those who...will be filled with woe." It's an exhortation, as in "those who...are meant to suffer woe as a consequence." The phrase "woe unto" is a directive, not a statement. Compare that phrase with the phrase "Blessed are the...," which IS a statement of condition. The corresponding statement of condition using the term "woe" would be something like "Filled with woe are those who..."
Excellent reaction video! Yes, ancient morals & beliefs - even when accurately stated - are no grounds for modern ones when there is so much evidence to refute them. Sadly, your 2 main reasons for homophobia & bigotry today are powerful, with identity politics really dangerous & damaging.
Wow! You went in much deeper than what I thought. I just assumed that "Sexual Immorality" was sinful (regardless of Gender-preference). Jesus even spoke about a man that even "looks at a woman to LUST for her, has already committed adultery in his heart". With that said, anybody who looks for a sexual outlet, other than for the purposes of marriage with his wife or procreation as a holy act, would be considered sinful.
@@hrv4908 Can you do that without sex? I want to live a sexless life as a lesbian and have adopted children and maybe get married although I’m unsure that’s be possible..
Quick question: What do you expect us to do? I didn’t ask to be homosexual. I wish I wasn’t and there isn’t a way to change it. Edit: I don’t wish I wasn’t. This is the way God made me so go be useless somewhere else.
Their ideal solution would be for you to not only “convert” / abstain from sex / pretend to be heterosexual, but ALSO condemn other homosexuals. They’d have their cake and eat it, too. This is why gays shouldn’t waste their lives trying to appease Christians
And the next best solution would be for us to “keep it to ourselves” aka they want to regress back to when homosexuals lived on the fringes of society and everyone pretended like we didn’t exist.
@@mikemathewson1825 See, my point exactly. You expect us to "control our lusts" aka live celibate lives and die alone. That's why we don't listen to you lol
Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. "Sin" is a concept religions created to "other" and oppress people. It has no place in reality. Good video!
The few scriptures in The Bible condemning homosexual relations are based on the prohibition in Levitical Law, BUT Christ actually goes against Levitical Law on several occasions. On one of those occasions, when the Pharisees complain about His disciples not washing their hands in the prescribed manner, Christ tells them that it doesn't matter if you are clean on the outside...only on the inside. He then turns to His disciples and says, "In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments OF MEN". In other words, the cultural laws were written by men (the Jewish priests), and not by God. As far as the story of Sodom, The Bible actually states what the "sin" of Sodom is (Ezekiel 16:49), and the verse begins "Now THIS was the sin of your sister Sodom..." The sin being the wealthy ignoring the poor and needy. Christ does not address the issue, and Paul (who was NOT Christ), based his views on Levitical Law.
If the sin of Sodom was that wealthy people ignoring the poor, than what makes Sodom different than any other place on the earth at that time or any time in human history? Sodom was destroy was not because of a specific sin it committed. Usually wicked people commit a variety of sins. Jude mentions that that sexual immorality was a problem in Sodom. The reason Sodom was singled out and destroyed is that the people were so wicked and unrepentant that God could not find even 10 righteous people there. God chapter 18 God and Abraham have a conversation. God plans to destroy the city but Abraham is worried that righteous people will be killed. Verse 24 "Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?" In verse 26 it says "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes." The conversation continues until they get to where if God find even 10 righteous people, the city will be spared in verse 32 "And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake." When a city or nation becomes so rot with sin and wickedness that they will not repent, will not turn to righteousness and reject God completely, there is no value for that city or nation to continue. It becomes rotten to the core and God will destroy it. Gay people lived in Sodom and their sins contributed to the wickedness of Sodom but there was a lot of heterosexual sins that also was a part of the problem. The wickedness went beyond sexual sins. As I said, wicked people don't just commit one kind of sin and are righteous in every other aspects of their lives. They tend to commit a lot of different kinds of sin like neglecting the poor ect. {For LDS viewers as I suppose there are a few here, research the issues of "ripening in iniquity" or something being fully rip in iniquity. Similar conditions that got Sodom destroyed is what got the people in Noah day destroyed andis what got cities in the Book of Mormon destroyed and similar conditions will occur before Christ comes again. The principles that got Sodom destroyed still apply today and will happen again at some point in the future. When a society as a whole becomes so wicked that it loves sin, rejects God, and will not repent, God then clears the board as there is no use for that society to continue.]
@@shootergavin3541 The point however is that The Bible states that the wealthy ignoring the poor was the chief "sin", not homosexuality, as many people wrongly believe. But I would agree with you that there were almost certainly other sins the people were committing. Many Christians have a very limited, myopic view of The Bible, like their ignorance of Levitical Law (and it's total invalidity) or this weird concept that St.Paul's opinions were equivalent to Christ's doctrines. A lot of this comes from the "doctrine" of biblical infallibility, which in essence says that The Bible IS God, because ONLY God is infallible. The "Word of God" is also clearly defined in The Bible (John 1:1), and it's not a what, but a WHO. Good post, by the way.
Thank you Dr. Dan for explaining how changes in societal norms show that God and the Bible were wrong and should be altered and re-interpreted to meet the new progressive standards of society.
"Progressive standards of society" Ha ha ha how's that working out? To follow your your and Dan's view is to watch society continue and accelerate in its degeneracy and ultimate failure. Yes, I know this is going to stir up the hateful bigots on this thread who want every imaginable deviant sex act, which perverts their bodies, to not only be accepted, but demand celebration.
I completely agree but I would like to point out that a literal reading of the Bible would not exclude all homosexual acts, sex, between two woman is completely tolerable within the context of this law. So would homoromantic relationships between two men. The law is less strict than people today often think.
So if men having sex is considered immoral and ‘dehumanizing’ because they can’t procreate, is a woman born without the ability to procreate also no longer human since they can’t have kids?
No, because the woman has a medical condition that keeps her from a pregnancy that would normally happen naturally. A healthy male and a healthy female can produce offspring naturally. Healthy same sex partners would still be unable to produce offspring.
@imgay8996 it's isn't a sin, but the possibility is still there between two healthy individuals of the opposite sex. There is no possibility for people of the same sex.
If sex was about procreation, that would mean my grandparents had to have had sex at least twice. My intuitive revulsion to things I find icky is telling me otherwise…
If what you say is true, then having children would not matter, and no one would exist. pleasure is a byproduct for procreation, an incentive. Any child understands this....
@@harrymurray9702it don't matter if it would not be anymore people born , you don't decide for each individualist biological males , we are living in that time where each biological male decide for himself only
Dan argues that reading any text at all, you use your own sort of dictionary and is therefore, subjective and of your own opinion. Does Dan deny prophets/apostles from having authority from God or do they just simply speak from their own opinion as well?
Furthermore, Dan ironically explains what HIS version of the definition of the words chosen of these texts mean. Thanks for your opinion Dan, but it directly contradicts the Spirit and what God has said through His servants.
But even as you yourself argue, _all_ sexual relations are - according to the Bible - inherently unclean, and it is in any case sinful to have sex outside marriage. Unless you can find Biblical support for gay marriage, that means all homosexual relations are sinful by default.
Which is inherently bigoted and homphobe. It's baffling the mental gymnastics people make in order to make the Bible better than it is, even atheists fall for that!
Hmm, I'm not sure I'm understanding Dan's framing of Paul's perspective. In 1 Cor 7, I see Paul acknowledging desire and prohibiting sexual neglect, and that people should have sex to prevent Satan from tempting. The only time he suggests should they should explicitly be "apart" is for prayer. Where does he say sex should "not be with the passion of desire" like the Gentiles, or that people should ONLY have JUST enough sex to suppress desire? I feel like I'm missing something.
@@leahunverferth8247 It seems I missed 1 Thess 1:3-5. There it speaks about taking a vessel with holiness and honor, not with lustful passion like the gentiles.
Yeah, there's definitely the contrast between using sexuality in a holy/honorable way vs. the inordinate passion of the gentiles in chapter 4. But interpreting this as limiting sex in a lawful context (marriage) to as little as possible is false. The gentle world is full of adultery, homosexuality, even bestiality and other acts of fornication. Don't be like them who will satisfy themselves with whatever they can. Act in a controlled, lawful way. No premarital sex, no adultery, etc. Many more applications could be made but none of this limits the lawful expression of sexuality in marriage (except as concerns the needs of the man or woman - did the woman just have a baby? Is someone sick?, Etc).
@@leahunverferth8247 Yeah, there are various ways to read it. "Not with passionate lust" insofar as it infringes on decency, or "not with passionate lust" insofar as it is passionate. Unfortunately early church fathers were prone to the total exclusionary interpretation, it seems. Augustine was lamentably mechanical in how he saw marriage duties.
the law he mentions only applied to the israelis, since they were the only ones offered the sinai covenant and were the only ones who could/did say "all these things we will do" in response to God's offer.
I am a heterosexual Christian but do not condemn same sex intercourse either homosexuality or lesbianism. Our sexuality is a choice we make before we are born. Part of the blueprint for our life here. Now as the decision is made on Heaven, this means that it has Gods blessing, therefore it is not a sin. As we are all merely mortal humans, who are we to decide what is a sin in Gods eyes?
Is that biblical marriage, i.e.entering a woman and paying the father or capturing an enemy, going into them and claiming them in marriage, or extra biblical marriage such as legal by contract or common marriage by mutual partnership of consenting adults?
For the life of me, I don't the distinction between "being" homosexual vs. "acting" homosexual. On paper, I suppose this fine line exists, but not in human reality or living. For example, what if it was moral to be Jewish as long as you never did anything that was Jewish. Or: you can be a woman as long as you never act like a woman. Or: it's moral to be heterosexual, as long as you never engaged in heterosexual acts. Kinda crazy and unrealistic, isn't it?
Most things that’s what ppl don’t get. You can stop being gay and you would still be viewed by god as a sinner the difference is a beliver in Christ his sins are blinded to god because of Jesus blood but a non believer is in trouble because there’s no one (Jesus) to cover your sins.
I'm not convinced of the technical point that “opposing x” is prejudicial towards members _on the basis of_ their membership in a particular group, when the group prosed as the target is “those who x”, because that's a tautology. If we accept that, then opposing murder (for example) is bigotry, since it prejudicial towards those who murder. In general, we can _always_ construct the group against whom _anything_ is bigoted, and that voids the term of any expressiveness or utility. So unless we want to give up on the word “bigotry”, I think this argument _as stated_ should be dismissed. More concerning is the possibility that the x being opposed is constructed _backwards_ from the group in order to exploit this logical subtlety-and as becomes clear when we compare these two viewpoints, yup, that's (when stripped to its core) probably what's going on here. I can do nothing but cheer for the rest of the presentation, though-not least for the admission into the discussion of the “ick” reaction and the reaction _to_ that reaction, which I think is a substantial and under-discussed part of the puzzle of where we are.
I think the key qualifier is obstinant and unreasonable. Is it unreasonable to prejudge other based on their behaviors? That's fundamentally a values question. We all prejudge people based on certain behaviors like theft, violence, dishonesty, etc., etc. There are plenty of sexual acts that get you prejudged as well, depending on the person doing the judging. I *don't* think it's reasonable to equate judging people on their behaviors with judging people based on the color of skin that they were born with.
A desire for something, even when born with it, does not mean it's part of the natural order. Desires may be right or wrong, good or evil, whether born with them or not. In the case of homosexuality, the light or law of nature is obvious: a man and a woman's body go together; a man and a man or a woman and a woman do not. Desires don't change this.
So then what then? What does someone who is saved who realizes their gay do? That should be the question. At the end of the day, the verses in Leviticus and countless in the New Testament have been proven to be speaking on manifestations of homosexual sex. With the common Adam and Eve argument, what about intersex people who are quite literally in between. That is also a 3rd sex as well. Would their whole existence be against "nature" because God created only male and female? Life isn't binary or black and white. We are complex creatures made by a complex God.
@@earth2sageee A person who is saved and has temptations towards homosexuality must repent and fight that temptation just like we must fight and repent of every other sin. Exceptions to the normal genetic makeup of man or woman are rare only prove the rule that there is only a man or a woman. You don't look at someone whose missing an arm and say "oh I guess human nature is not to have arms. It's not black and white like I thought." Of course human nature is to have arms; when that's different we know something went wrong. This matter is black and white or we could say xx and xy.
@@leahunverferth8247 okay but then when fighting temptation, what does this person do? is it like oh your celibate now! good luck with that! ? also exceptions to male and female prove there is more than just male and female just by their existence as they tend to not have a dominant sex. it's much more common than we think it is. their chromosomal variations make them who they are. XXY, XXX, XO, 45, 47, etc.
@@earth2sageee That person does not need to be celibate. A man can marry a woman and a woman can marry a man. However, it wouldn't be wise to do this when struggling with homosexual temptations. The answer is to be much in prayer, much in the Word, and accountable to a godly church that exercises biblical discipline. God has strength to conquer every temptation. Human nature very obviously has either male or female. The strategy of deceit is to obfuscate that which is clear and obvious.
@@leahunverferth8247 "a godly church that exercises biblical discipline." There is no "biblical discipline," because the Bible is not univocal. "God has strength to conquer every temptation." One's orientation, straight or gay or in-between, has been proven to be innate and immutable. There are no verified cases of anyone ever having been able to change their orientation, whether through prayer or any other means.
I think the internet is giving people the other side now. Society can change. National opinion on gay marriage changed. It's a slow process though. I don't know if when I opposed gay marriage decades ago I was a bigot. I can barely remember why I even though it was wrong. I was going through a religious phase, thats part. So culturally and religiously brainwashed I guess.
@@joecheffo5942 fair enough. I suppose I was being a little hyperbolic for rhetorical effect. You're right, society can and does change - but it's difficult. People need to be willing to change though, and that's the problem. they don't like change being forced upon them, it needs to come from within.
@@joecheffo5942that’s fair! I was against my own sexuality because I was taught(indoctrinated) from a young age that it was wrong and sinful. The deeper into religion I went the more I fought it. The less “religious” and freer in my faith I became, the more accepting I became of my sexuality
@@joecheffo5942 i used to think it was wrong but only because of the two references in the bible in 1 cor 6.9 and 1 tim 1.10. i just without thinking presumed there must be some reason for it, and like dan says it felt icky. when i discovered that those verses were mistranslated, i changed my mind pretty quickly.
Saying that it no longer matters is a slippery slope. When we can see that grace leads us to realize that marriage, adoption, and hygiene makes it so homosexual sex is no longer a sin. Not just doesn't matter anymore, but not a sin.
Hey I’m a Christian! I don’t think you will read this or anything but if you do that would be great. Your ability to formulate an argument is phenomenal, you have a good structural thesis. But it’s oddly political which isn’t Biblically accurate or right to assume. I don’t think the person you are debating is making a good argument, the procreation argument isn’t the best, but I don’t think your points are the best formulated responses as you seem to also be rationalising your own beliefs with cherry picking parts of the Bible or context. No hate towards you whatsoever, I admire your amazing ability to debate such a topic, but your argument isn’t as structurally sound as the overwhelmingly pleasing comments make it out to be. I would so love to see a sit down conversation about this with a Christian who’s understanding and kind. Hope you have a lovely day.
A "dictionary fallacy"? What is he talking about?? He wasn't using the dictionary to make an argument, it was to define terms. This response seems lazy I think the argument is based on natural law theory. It's not necessarily about procreation as much as it's about the sex oriented towards procreation.
@trapd00rspider The dictionary will give several definitions. Some will even trace the word back to its origin. I don't think there is such a thing as a dictionary fallacy
this video's a little hard to watch casually on a phone, for example, because of the mis-matched volume levels between your clips and his. this is an old video, but it'd be appreciated if you'd keep a more careful eye to audio mixing on the future ♥️
Does the rule of not lying with a man as with a woman apply to their slaves? So far, my understanding of biblical laws is that they applied to Isrealites while foreign slaves were possessions, not people.
I was already convinced of all your arguments, but I really like the succinct and scholarly way you present this. Unfortunately, these arguments will only be convincing to people who are educated enough to understand the words and open-minded enough to consider them. It is clear to me that God condemns the lusts of the flesh and infidelity, and upholds chastity and fidelity or marriage without regard to the gender of their partner.
Paul is so brilliant, saying that a husband and his wife should come together for intercourse so that they won't have sexual desire!! 😂 In this one line in 1st Corinthians 7 the germ of the Catholic theory of the transmission of Original Sin is present. 😠😡🤬
I'm bigoted against people who commit crimes, not because I can see that their acts are wrong in our socially constructed idea of wrong, but because my intuition tells me murder and traffic violations are icky
Indeed, the line needs to be empathy. Murder hurts people on every way. A guy being born gay and wanting to live with another gay guy doesn’t hurt my heterosexuality at all.
@@b.l.8755 I agree with you 100%, in fact it is because of our empathy, that we are obligated to hold people who commit murder accountable. Being empathetic does not negate or remove accountability, it actually requires it. It is your empathy for the child murdered, or even more personal, the empathy for yourself understanding how much it would hurt you to be murdered. This, despite attempting to have empathy and understanding the attacker, also demands accountability to prevent such hurt being inflicted again. You are right much of our interaction is a social construct, and what could better guide the further construction or even removal of past constructs, than empathy. Empathy should be the guide we use to make social decisions, and it’s that reason I would never condemn or judge someone gay. They are not hurting me or my family at all.
@@tripleraze321 it seems they receive nothing but complete support or complete condemnation. Where is the gay married pastor that preaches to gay Christians against the obvious harms they do to each other in the gay sexual community?
@@b.l.8755 The "harm" done by those in the LGBT community is no different from the "harm" done by the straight community. Both communities have the capacity for abuse of all types, and both can commit any crime. As for where the gay, married pastors are, I'm sure you realize the difficulty of finding that subset. The amount of people fitting the category of Christian[Married[LGBT-friendly church[Gay[Desire to preach[Church in need of a preacher[Church allowing of LGBT leadership]]]]]] is, I'd wager, an incredibly small community to say the least. Also I'm sure that pastor would still be preaching to a primarily straight audience, considering demographics.
The whole schtick of caring about whether or not other people are reproducing is so weird. You don't look at a straight couple and say "gee I sure hope they're pumping her full of babies". You know what really brings goodness to humanity? Not being bigoted.
Buddy. Old AND New Testament- Hebrews 13:4. Mark 7:20-23. Ephesians 5:5. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20. 1 Corinthians 7:1-2. Galatians 5:19-21. Colossians 3:5. Jude 1:7. Ephesians 5:3. I could go on. And Matthew 19:4-6 says homosexual marriage is no bueno, so literally any homosexual sex must be outside of marriage and therefore fornication. There is no rationalizing, fornication is prohibited and condemned many times throughout the Bible. There is no reality in which fornication is not sinful per the Bible. If you're not going to pay attention to something as basic as that, don't even bother pretending Christian faith. Just pick another faith that has less rules, since you clearly don't like rules and don't believe that the Bible is true-if you did, you'd have some proper fear about the spiritual consequences of intentionally spreading misinformation about Christianity.
Matthew 19:4-6 is talking about divorce, not gay marriage. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because if sexual assault, not same sex relationships. Not to mention, the NT doesn't explain exactly what fornication is. Remember, Christianity was a doomsday cult, so most of the teachings found in the NT do not apply today.
@@jackcimino8822 Jesus explicitly defines marriage as one man and one woman before he addresses divorce. I didn't mention Sodom and Gomorrah, but every reference to it states that it was destroyed for sexual immorality-them being rapists was just a cherry on top. And hey if you don't think the NT applies today, you clearly don't believe in Christianity, so you don't have a dog in this fight-so why are you even commenting on this?
Yeah I'm surprised his argument came down to interpreting the Bible as written by the societies of the time and not divinely inspired. The truth is the bible is clearly against homosexual acts, even in the new testament..
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true.
Yes, I read an article several years ago on the “ick” factor. I think that still exists. The ick factor plays into the aversion to same-sex sex, particularly between men.
The thing as people’s consciences become warped through habitual sin, our ability to discern how gross are sexual perversions goes away. If you don’t find it abhorrent, all that means is that you're not in a state of grace, and you’ve lost the ability to discern that natural order of things-which doesn’t mean as Dan believes according to nature, but according to the proper teleology of a thing.
@@JudeMalachiSo I guess all of those giraffes, and ducks, and dolphins, and salamanders, and dogs, and hundreds of other species that engage in homosexual sex are also fallen from grace, right? So sad that all of these wild animals are going against the natural order.
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true. We need to remember the bible was written by man
We have no idea how marriage began as a social institution, and religion does not own marriage. Marriage predates the beginning of Hebrew social structures as a formalized religious and political state, as well as their reformation into a monotheistic system. It existed in isolated societies, including tribes. Yet the guy makes his assertion of what marriage is for/why it started, as if he were there. That’s what I call “a lie”. And that was not his first lie. Making up stuff so you can support your existing belief is lying. It’s not just being mistaken, it is promoting falsehoods for self aggrandizing purposes. It amuses me that atheists are more concerned with factual information and being truthful than are the people who claim the liar is the devil and the enemy, and who then proceed to lie like…well…their professed enemy. Of all the stunning hypocrisy they demonstrate, that one has to be the most staggering.
Nice equivocation fallacy around the 5:30 mark. The natural order doesn’t mean according to nature in Aristotle. It means some more akin to the proper teleology of something.
I think that it is probably not our best approach to try to support gay people by debating over what the Bible really means to say, as if the original, "real" Bible would have been something wonderful, wise and inspired by "God". This is giving too much credence to Bible mythology. Why not speak the real truth, that the Bible is not a credible source of moral authority, that there are no such real things as sacred texts that were inspired from a magical, invisible realm and written by specially anointed men?
*Equivocation on sin:* The apologist should have combined his two sources on sin and admitted that the “mark” sin misses is bibical dictates, not the good of humanity. Instead, he goes against his first citation and claims sin is about not doing good for people. We don’t need a lot of babies. We would do better with fewer babies and less oppression, so ending homophobia would be good for humanity.
@trapd00rspider Overpopulation comes across in multiple ways. Rainforests are steadily disappearing to make houses, and grow food. We need them to breathe well. We have global warming due to excess CO2 production, which is in part of function of population. About 3 billion birds are killed annually by house cats. We could manage these issues more easily if there were fewer people. Did you assume that immediate food supply is the only issue?
My post was about the good of humanity. Denigrating people for how they were born goes against that. More gay families means a lower population growth, since a higher percentage of them adopt children.
What about Leviticus 20:13 that says If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them? I personally don't subscribe with the whole concept of sin in Christianity, but could you address this?
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
@@Dieg0xCl0utin this context, sexual immorality also includes having sex to have children, rather than just satiating desire with one's woman. Paul and Jesus were both against further procreation at that time.
It's the same logic found here, the act of men laying with each other as "they would with women" was considered sinful because it went against the hierarchy of "men should always be on top".
Also this left me curious, where are you getting your morals from? You clearly do not trust God to tell you what is right or wrong so divine command theory is off the table. You also reject natural law so what exactly is good to you? Because I have seen you enact moral judgement upon people so you should demonstrate why your moral claims are true.
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true.
Interesting they thought Jesus was coming back quickly, forward to today and there's still people that think he's coming back imminently... hope they're not holding their breath
Please don't take this video down. I'll be sharing it around, because it is something that more people desperately need to hear. Thank you so much for your work.
As will I. This is exceptionally useful information.
As will I!
Brilliant analysis.
Bravo 👏
You can be LGBT and Christian 👨❤️👨
@@dansaber4427 Totally agree, I would never argue against that. That's why cultural shift within Christian circles and reinvigoration of what it means to be Christian in the material world is crucial to progress.
Would St. John 10:1 be applicable here?
I really appreciate your perspective! As a gay person who tried to "pray away the gay" in my youth (to no avail). If more people knew that being gay doesn't mean you're going to hell then we'd have a larger swath of people making the conversion to believing in Christ.
Dude, if Jesus were from today, he wouldn't be any different than Ben Shapiro or someone worse.
I do believe being gay is a sin but Lgb people still should be treated with respect because it’s not like they’re worse than everyone else. Everyone commits sin even if they don’t want to.
You can't bend the rules. You're gay and you're loved, but maybe, you're not a Christian... Yet.
To be a true Christian you must resign to the homosexual intercourse and lifestyle.
I know it'll be your biggest struggle but our Father is holding you, he's got your back so you won't fight alone.
Yet you have to make a decision.
@@nenabaez5915 Lifestyle? Being gay isn't a style
@@Trotoloko it is when you choose not to obey God.
Thanks for all your videos on this topic, So many look to scripture without thinking twice,
Peace be with you in Jesus name, This topic cannot be talked about enough.
It's not that the arguments used by Paul and others aren't relevant for today, it's that they're wrong now and have always been wrong.
Nope
You're a solid human being. I'm glad I found your channel.
No he isn’t. Sexuality isn’t a choice. It’s not that difficult.
@@Camille-Saint-Saens did you even watch the full video?
@@Camille-Saint-Saens he says in this video that sexuality isn't a choice.
I would add one more reason why these beliefs still have a strong hold over people is a desire not to have to say "We were wrong." If people believe that their moral teachings are divinely revealed, immutable decrees for all time and all people, then saying they were wrong calls into question that whole system.
Agreed.
It reminds me of how the Bible was used as a means to enslave black people. The Bible was also used to prove that the Earth was the center of the universe. Calling those prevailing theories of their time into question would render many to have to reexamine their faith and question tenets they held in high esteem. Not everyone can handle that type of rumbling to their faith.
religion is wrong
I would also add that a faith that hasn’t been tested for its validity is a flimsy faith. So many of our Bible heroes stories are about facing the testing of their faith. Is God real? Can I trust what I believe He told me? What if He isn’t real?
That is a necessary part of the journey. That uncertainty is what allows the God of the universe to prove (not because He has to) to the person He is who He is
@endswithme555 Don't you mean gods depicted in religious texts:
the transposing of a ruling elite or religious leadership's rational to support their methods?
Markers, such as gaslighting, threat, fables with examples of outcomes for disobedience, reward for compliance and cover stories to assert credibility, are all there.
Every time I watch one of Dan's videos, even when I know what information he is going to present, I am still mind blown from how well articulated his arguments are.
What arguments?
Odd how Christians pick on gays but ignore all other laws from Bible like Adultery,work on Saturday , Idolatry trinity etc etc
Disgusting, isn’t it?
Christians need people to look down and hate on while calling it Christian love.
Work on Saturday? That does not compute. Gentiles are not under the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was only given to the Israelites. The Sabbath command does not apply to Gentiles.
@@Chomper750 Shabbat is in Laws of Torah from Sinai.
True it does not apply to gentiles.
No does kosher and many other laws.
No rabbis made up Sabbath on 7th day..
Mosaic laws ?
The seven Noachide laws apply to gentiles.
As per Torah Tanakh Talmud.
So you pick and choose what laws you like or reject..
Your man God idol trinity human sacrifice calvary died to replace all the laws your church fathers claim..
Another bizarre theology.
Then came Quran ..
תודה רבה שלום
Oy vey
@@Nudnik1 The Sabbath was given to Jews at Sinai. The Bible never mentions anyone before this moment, following the Sabbath.
“It’s not bigoted because…”
Reminds me of someone telling me he was not transphobic because he was “Not afraid of trans people, and phobia means fear.” 😒
Absolutely. You seem to be mixing up the words repulsion with fear.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 phobia is fairly often used to describe an irrational aversion to something, so I would say that particular shoe still fits 🤷♂️
Isn’t it more bigoted to tell someone they are a bigot simply for holding a Christian viewpoint on behavioral guidelines for members of their church?
When Muslims tell me it is a sin to eat pork or drink alcohol in their culture, I don’t get upset and tell them to deny their faith. All organizations have rules that prohibit those unwilling to follow them.
@@genotriana3882 *//"Isn’t it more bigoted to tell someone they are a bigot simply for holding a Christian viewpoint on behavioral guidelines for members of their church?"//*
Not if they Actually Are Bigoted for it, by virtue of them continually attempting to Force such ideals onto Society At-Large, onto the People, into Law, and into Education; utterly Outside of their own personal little congregation.
*//"When Muslims tell me it is a sin to eat pork or drink alcohol in their culture, I don’t get upset and tell them to deny their faith."//*
Muslims in the U.S. aren't Trying to Write, Enact, and Pass Legislation that would Limit, Stifle, or Prevent everyone else (of every Non-Muslim Worldview) from eating pork or drinking alcohol. So, blatantly false analogy, as we actively have Large Groups of Christians trying to do just such things to bring the Nation closer to a Theocratic Dictatorship.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 False. The notion of homophobia or transphobia refers not just to Literal Direct Fear of OTHER, External, Homosexuals and Trans individuals; but it Also refers to the person's Own Internalized Irrational FEAR of the possibilities that they IMAGINE as a result of such individuals (i.e. "What if find out that * *I* * Like Penis?!?" or "What if I start thinking that * *I* * am Mentally Feminine?!?", and other similar-such examples, etc). Just as someone with Arachnaphobia need not necessarily just Only be irrationally frightened by the Literal Sight of Spiders, but can even be by the mere Thought of them too. By these measures, most of them Right-Wing Evangelicals (who are Very Anti-LGBTQ+) are EXTREMELY Phobic.
Nicely said. I have no problem with starting with dictionary definitions if the intent is to get everyone on the same page with an agreement on what a word means. But it shouldn’t be taken as some kind of unassailable authority.
The Bible is like a Rorschach test. An individual’s interpretation of the Bible says more about that individual’s psychology than it does about the Bible, although the Bible is so vague and conflicting in spots that it lends itself easily to that.
If the owner’s manual of my car, where as unclear and open to interpretation as the Bible, then Subaru would’ve been sued out of existence years ago.
Thank you, Dan. As a former evangelical pastor, now out and queer, this is very, very meaningful to hear spoken with such clarity, precision, and authority.
Out of curiosity, were you anti-homosexuality while you were a pastor?
@@Pyromaniac77777 I believed that sex between people of the same gender was always sinful, yes.
You want God AND you also want your deviant desires satisfied. You can't have both. It's either your D**k or the Lord. Is God not worth the sacrifice?? Do not sleep at night comfortably thinking that your homosexual acts are embraced by God. Sorry, but you are deluded. The only authority is God and it is he who speaks with clarity and precision. Dan McClellan won't be there to save you from God's wrath should you choose to adopt him as "authority."
@TiMMY2PH0NE5 The second
@@zoebirss9944what made you finally accept that part of yourself and live that part of who you were while leaving your pastoral profession? Was it your own revelation? Study? Did you read anything that gave you an aha moment?
Any time someone says “the purpose of sex is procreation” I just automatically assume they don’t have a very pleasurable sex life and it makes me sad for them and the people they have sex with
it might not be the onlt purpose but its the main one dont you think? though its a weak argument i must agree
@paulomaldonado6934 hardly the main one, most people have sex primarily for pleasure
@@edmundsishange3608 main i mean not as the most often. if it’s like that then you’re right. but main as in the most important. well if we don’t procreate humanity ends lol
@@GustavoMaldonado42 humanity is going to end at some point. Ending because we didn’t procreate is probably the least violent and horrific way for humanity to end
@@ufpride83 do you want humanity to end?
Christians need to realize and understand that not everyone is obligated to believe in their holy book.
I do realize and understand this. But, I also realize this means those who don't will receive the condemnation of Hell. So, I'm going to keep spreading the Gospel. Because of love.
@@christsdisciple3105 There is no love in that, its just delusion and indoctrination. We don't want that.
@@eurech I'll agree with the indoctrination, as people should put in good doctrine, but delusion? We'll start with the fact that even secular scholars believe Jesus lived and was crucified. His followers also believed He was resurrected and ascended to heaven(as all of them were persecuted and most were killed and no one dies for a lie they know is a lie) add in the high improbability of a mass hallucination event such as what His followers claimed to have seen and Luke's account showing someone who is close up to the facts and tries to get even minor details correct... Paul's vision of Jesus as someone who would have no reason to have a hallucination of a person he had never met and thought said person was a heretic... and then the cosmological argument(all things with a beginning have something that began them, the universe and time both have beginnings, thus requiring a timeless, spaceless, immaterial being to start them, all of which applies to God)... but with all that lined up and more can be added... is it really all that delusional?
I think that's kind of what spreading the gospel is tho...
@@christsdisciple3105some people pick and choose things out of the Bible to live by. Not everyone lives EXACTLY how the Bible tells us to. Therefore? We won’t all die sin free. We still need to accept Jesus Christ as our lord and savior, and live as closely as we can to his light, but none of us will ever be 100% deserving of heaven and be 100% clean. We will all die with sins still, because that’s human nature and why we are deserving to go to Hell. But staying as close to God’s light as we can will save us, even if we aren’t completely clean..
"It is not something that people are able to choose, so it is 100% a part of the natural order."
Bravo.
I exclaimed a spontaneous, "Wow!" when he started down the path of, "Sex outside of marriage is wrong because there isn't the premeditation for creating offspring."
Because you need a bureaucratic permit to be biologically able to procreate 😂
This people is beyond hope
Talking about this so called sin’, I wish I could remember who it was that said “What makes you think that someone else’s sin is greater than yours?” I used that line one time and was unfriended.
Well, if you see a guy punch an innocent civilian to d e a t h at the front of your eyes and you claim never having done something that could compete with this action, we can argue about your sins equivalencies....
Can you debate other Christian’s that disagree with you on this topic? I only see you respond to tic tok videos and never have a face to face conversation with someone who disagrees with this. But I think I know why that conversation will never take place.
I want to see him discuss with Jeff durbun and James White on apologia studious
@@nicholashendricks9740 Cliff Knechtle
Why is this subject so important to you? Why do you so strongly have the need to “win”?
Bro are you okay
What would you win if he sat by the table with people who claim certain things to be wrong bc they are wrong?
I dont see you sitting and conversating with anyone face to face. Practice what you preach, dude.
I love the sound of your voice and could listen to you for hours.
"It's not a sin to be homosexual, it's a sin to engage in homosexual activity". Oh, so I'm ok just as long as I pretend to be someone else and deny my own feelings. Glad to hear it. That makes it so much better
There’s those who would say turn to Jesus as he will create you a new being. I’m female and I’m with a woman, I’ve prayed time and time again. People just want me to “pray the gay away.”
@@SuicideboysGrey59I’ve been praying for 30 years…it hasn’t gone anywhere. In fact it’s gotten stronger!! People who aren’t experiencing this but yet still want to legislate against it, preach against it or create videos or lead campaigns against it baffle me?
I think it's, be romantic, not sexual typa thing
@@strawberriesstar That seems to be what it is in the Bible, innit; yet most Christians at least the conservative ones can't stand the very ideas of gay romance and lesbian romance either. They think everything that has to do with being LGBTQ+ is sinful, even the basic urges are because they're "thought crimes". 🙄
Yes, it does make it better. Your body is not your own.
I love how you absolutely dismantle bigoted views with proper evidence.
So many people don't think and just follow the bigoted interpretations or jump through hoops to justify their beliefs instead of just... not being bigoted.
As if it's so hard to just let other people love who they love.
What evidence? He did nothing in this video but ignore other passages denouncing homosexuality while telling others they are using fallacies. Dude did literally nothing but pander to folks like yourself.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202Check out previous videos.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 He literally did no such thing. He pointed out how Several biblical authors, especially of the New Testament, absolutely weren't against homosexuality Because of the notion that it's "non-procreative" (Evidenced Rebuttal). He Addressed how Biblical Authors, of their differing time periods, saw homosexuality and Why they most likely saw it that way, as they were against it for the sake of it seeming to favor Male Submissiveness (the Opposite of ignoring other passages). He refuted the notion that it was "Non-Natural". And he further pointed out how the Only Real Reason the anti-homosexual view is held to Religiously in the Modern day is because it favors their geopolitical and/or ideological Agendas.
So, it could be argued that your Only problem with it is that it didn't Pander and Kowtow to Your Personal Ideological and/or Geopolitical Biases... and you Hate that... because you WANT to hold to Religious Views that are Faulty, Unjustified, and Bigoted... OR because you already Do hold to such views, and have invested into them for a Long Time.
@@capitalizingcapitalist1202 another ignoramus telling a biblical scholar saying he’s wrong when you can’t even read the original texts in Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek.
@@TechySeven .....Call me a "bigot"...I hate the "community" of PEDOPHILES too ( NOT the people )
and the "community" of MURDERERS as well .....poor me .
I adopted kids with my wife. Have we been sinning since we couldn’t have kids? 😏
Indeed. It would also mean that a man or woman who suffered some sort of injury or illness or infirmity like simple aging that prevented them from having children through no fault of their own would be sinning even if they were married. Yeah, good luck with trying to get that one past fellow believers. "Sorry, your wife has entered menopause. Yes, I'm aware it's early for her, and she's an astounding good looking woman who looks like a cover model a decade younger, but no more sex for you."
If you saw an amputee, you wouldn't think "this disproves that the nature of humans is to have 2 legs!" You would automatically know something went wrong with this person because people have 2 legs. Likewise, the fact that some couples can't have children doesn't disprove the fact that it is the nature of man/woman sex to produce children. It is the nature of any other corrupted form of sexuality to not possibly produce children. This does show the damage to society as a whole should homosexuality run rampant and it's a strong argument to prove homosexuality is contrary to the law of nature.
People who hold to this procreation argument as to why homosexuality is sinful need to talk to couples like yourself…
@@keith6706it’s not like that’ not all Christians, or even catholiques, think like that
@@jujuoof174 I believe I pointed that out in that same comment.
I will have to listen many many more times to your discourse on this subject it is very intelligent !
What more can I say !
This is one of your best videos yet!
Im so happy I found your channel Dan! I consider myself a gay christian and refuse to put myself around people who make me feel like I’m an abomination or I should be ashamed of who I am.
Can you do some videos on witchcraft, how to move through the world if the people you love dabble in divination but you still care about them and want them in your life being a Christian?
If you have made those videos already, please direct me to them. Thank you again for all of your efforts and explanations ❤ it is truly refreshing to see someone with CREDENTIALS speak about things such as this.
Please keep up the great work Dan!
Please DONT.
@@Camille-Saint-Saens When someone tears down your house it’s traumatic, even if it’s a shack.
This apologetic argument is like some sort of abstraction bait-and-switch.
On the one hand, they defensively say that they aren't targeting any group of people -- which is suggesting that they don't want to use abstraction, but instead focus on the concrete alone.
But then they target that same group using a classification system which is entirely abstract and not in the least bit concrete.
I get that you are against bigotry and that's great... but why do you feel the need to proclaim that the bible isn't explicitly against homosexuality when it clearly is?
Not at all. The concept of homoxesuality did not exist back then. They did not classify people according to who they were attracted but to suitability to role based on social hierarchy. So you hear "males with males" and think "homoxesuality". They heard "males with males" and thought "sucks for the guy on bottom". The issue in the Bible is that because women were assumed inferior, it denigrated a male to be put in the woman's role. It had nothing to do with it being "the same secs", much less homoxesuality which they knew little about.
@@MusicalRaichuThe Bible states that any sex outside of the marriage between a man and a woman is sin. Homosexual acts are therefore sinful You may say different societies had no concept of homosexuality but these societies didn't make the Bible, God did the Bible is God's word and God is all knowing therefore he knows all concepts.
@@bittuhgenious9236 The Bible spans many centuries and cultures and contains no consistent marital or secs ethics.
The predominant view of in the OT is one man and as many women and secs slaivs as he can afford. Marriage involved a business transaction between a man and a girl's father - that's girl as in child. "Biblical marriage" is illegal today.
The Bible says nothing against premarital secs, particularly by men, although it was a problem when it made girls unsellable.
The Bible was written by human beings using the brains God gave them. Some (including me) believe there is divine influence, but what is written is limited to the concepts the human authors had at the time.
If you understand the texts you think are about homoxesuality using the original authors' concepts, they actually make sense. The NT references don't even describe homoxesuality, yet judgemental people enjoy condeming innocent victims using texts that don't even describe them. It's a disgrace.
OP is right. Portraying the Bible as something better than it is only feeds Theocracists, it doesn't help us at all.
@@Trotoloko There's things in the Bible we disagree with now. But an obsolete Israelite taboo against a particular way of having secs, a stereotypical exposition of pagan excesses and a word of unknown meaning do not constitute "explicitly against homoxesuality". It only became that since in the 70s when a mistranslation became viral.
Dictionaries are great for defining one's terms. They are definitely _not_ great at measuring the reasonableness of one's arguments. It's a list of words and meanings, not a debate judge. Well done to point this out, Dr. McLellan.
Dictionaries aren't actually great for defining terms because all they can capture is general usage. Terms in biblical criticism should be scholarly and specific. Defining your terms is indeed step one, but the resources you use to construct said definition have to be relevant to the field.
@@SethRGray I disagree. In any debate, we have to define our terms. If we're to avoid arguments over the definitions of our terms, we need to use a definition for our words that isn't reasonably contested.
And yes, using the definition most relevant to the field, (for example, calf for a podiatrist means something different than it does for a rancher), is appropriate. Otherwise it's kind of a false equivocation.
I think you and I are trying to make different points though.
The arguments that homosexual sex is a sin because the acts don't produce children would have to mean that an infertile straight couple would be committing sin if they had sex.
Those who use this argument are mistaken. The design may reflect the capacity for producing children in a way that homosexuality doesn't, but the idea that sex has to produce children to be approved by God is contrary to scripture.
And that marriage is a contract between families were women have nothing to say beyond being baby-making machines.
...
Wait...🤔
No. Because a man and woman got married to produce life, to Respect and Provide and to LOVE each other, in spite of all. If they cannot produce life, it is a circumstance. Marriage is an institution with principles, if one of those principles, by natural circumstances is not happening, the Institution does not fall apart, because there are the other 2 principles still supporting the Marriage.
@@nenabaez5915 So, gay people are hated because arbitrary reasons
@@nenabaez5915 I mean...nice try, but the logic is sound in the original person's comment. What you've presented is just apologetics attempting to get around the problem.
Dr. Dan McClellan drinking game: take a shot every time he says, "Alright, let's see it."
“Data”. Some videos can get you absolutely shattered.
@@deviouskris3012 RIP liver
I think I'd be in the hospital by the end of the challenge.
Always speak so intelligently and well versed but I can never seem to figure out where you stand. I know you're simply educating the masses but I'd like to take a deeper dive.
Like your uneducated opinion would make any difference
As an addendum to the comment I wrote below, since when did love ever come with a list of conditions? Love is love in whatever form
I thought "Woe unto those who have children during the second coming" meant that since their will be so many calamities and power-abuse by humankind during the last days, humans would be exposed to painful natural earth elements, abuse of power by men, and would have to endure extremely hard outer-world stuff. Not that it would be wrong to have the kids, just that it would be hard to watch your kids suffer, it would be hard to have to take care of your children when it's hard to take care of your self, and all that jazz. I didn't think that had anything to do with Paul's assertion that singleness can be more holy than being married.
"Woe unto those who..." isn't a statement of condition as in "those who...will be filled with woe." It's an exhortation, as in "those who...are meant to suffer woe as a consequence." The phrase "woe unto" is a directive, not a statement. Compare that phrase with the phrase "Blessed are the...," which IS a statement of condition. The corresponding statement of condition using the term "woe" would be something like "Filled with woe are those who..."
Excellent reaction video! Yes, ancient morals & beliefs - even when accurately stated - are no grounds for modern ones when there is so much evidence to refute them. Sadly, your 2 main reasons for homophobia & bigotry today are powerful, with identity politics really dangerous & damaging.
“Ancient” … man y’all are perishing without even realizing it
@@daekwonrose3160 shut up ya bigot
Wow! You went in much deeper than what I thought. I just assumed that "Sexual Immorality" was sinful (regardless of Gender-preference). Jesus even spoke about a man that even "looks at a woman to LUST for her, has already committed adultery in his heart". With that said, anybody who looks for a sexual outlet, other than for the purposes of marriage with his wife or procreation as a holy act, would be considered sinful.
You assumed correctly, but you should remember that sexually intimacy is a way in which spouses bond to each other -- they become one.
@@hrv4908 Can you do that without sex? I want to live a sexless life as a lesbian and have adopted children and maybe get married although I’m unsure that’s be possible..
Quick question: What do you expect us to do? I didn’t ask to be homosexual. I wish I wasn’t and there isn’t a way to change it.
Edit: I don’t wish I wasn’t. This is the way God made me so go be useless somewhere else.
Their ideal solution would be for you to not only “convert” / abstain from sex / pretend to be heterosexual, but ALSO condemn other homosexuals. They’d have their cake and eat it, too. This is why gays shouldn’t waste their lives trying to appease Christians
And the next best solution would be for us to “keep it to ourselves” aka they want to regress back to when homosexuals lived on the fringes of society and everyone pretended like we didn’t exist.
@@kodirawr Exactly. And they look to Russia on how to enforce that.
What would you expect someone to do if they were sexually attracted to your partner (if you were married)?
@@mikemathewson1825 See, my point exactly. You expect us to "control our lusts" aka live celibate lives and die alone. That's why we don't listen to you lol
Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive.
"Sin" is a concept religions created to "other" and oppress people. It has no place in reality.
Good video!
Than you very, very much for this. I wish you, and RUclips had been around 30 years ago.
The few scriptures in The Bible condemning homosexual relations are based on the prohibition in Levitical Law, BUT Christ actually goes against Levitical Law on several occasions. On one of those occasions, when the Pharisees complain about His disciples not washing their hands in the prescribed manner, Christ tells them that it doesn't matter if you are clean on the outside...only on the inside. He then turns to His disciples and says, "In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments OF MEN". In other words, the cultural laws were written by men (the Jewish priests), and not by God. As far as the story of Sodom, The Bible actually states what the "sin" of Sodom is (Ezekiel 16:49), and the verse begins "Now THIS was the sin of your sister Sodom..." The sin being the wealthy ignoring the poor and needy. Christ does not address the issue, and Paul (who was NOT Christ), based his views on Levitical Law.
If the sin of Sodom was that wealthy people ignoring the poor, than what makes Sodom different than any other place on the earth at that time or any time in human history? Sodom was destroy was not because of a specific sin it committed. Usually wicked people commit a variety of sins. Jude mentions that that sexual immorality was a problem in Sodom.
The reason Sodom was singled out and destroyed is that the people were so wicked and unrepentant that God could not find even 10 righteous people there. God chapter 18 God and Abraham have a conversation. God plans to destroy the city but Abraham is worried that righteous people will be killed. Verse 24
"Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?" In verse 26 it says
"And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
The conversation continues until they get to where if God find even 10 righteous people, the city will be spared in verse 32
"And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
When a city or nation becomes so rot with sin and wickedness that they will not repent, will not turn to righteousness and reject God completely, there is no value for that city or nation to continue. It becomes rotten to the core and God will destroy it. Gay people lived in Sodom and their sins contributed to the wickedness of Sodom but there was a lot of heterosexual sins that also was a part of the problem. The wickedness went beyond sexual sins. As I said, wicked people don't just commit one kind of sin and are righteous in every other aspects of their lives. They tend to commit a lot of different kinds of sin like neglecting the poor ect.
{For LDS viewers as I suppose there are a few here, research the issues of "ripening in iniquity" or something being fully rip in iniquity. Similar conditions that got Sodom destroyed is what got the people in Noah day destroyed andis what got cities in the Book of Mormon destroyed and similar conditions will occur before Christ comes again. The principles that got Sodom destroyed still apply today and will happen again at some point in the future. When a society as a whole becomes so wicked that it loves sin, rejects God, and will not repent, God then clears the board as there is no use for that society to continue.]
@@shootergavin3541 The point however is that The Bible states that the wealthy ignoring the poor was the chief "sin", not homosexuality, as many people wrongly believe. But I would agree with you that there were almost certainly other sins the people were committing. Many Christians have a very limited, myopic view of The Bible, like their ignorance of Levitical Law (and it's total invalidity) or this weird concept that St.Paul's opinions were equivalent to Christ's doctrines. A lot of this comes from the "doctrine" of biblical infallibility, which in essence says that The Bible IS God, because ONLY God is infallible. The "Word of God" is also clearly defined in The Bible (John 1:1), and it's not a what, but a WHO. Good post, by the way.
Exactly Jesus rejected all law and said believe in ME ! Your faith is counted as righteousness!
You were my hero after the interview that you had last week. Now I don’t know because I don’t know enough about you.
Thank you Dr. Dan for explaining how changes in societal norms show that God and the Bible were wrong and should be altered and re-interpreted to meet the new progressive standards of society.
"Progressive standards of society" Ha ha ha how's that working out? To follow your your and Dan's view is to watch society continue and accelerate in its degeneracy and ultimate failure.
Yes, I know this is going to stir up the hateful bigots on this thread who want every imaginable deviant sex act, which perverts their bodies, to not only be accepted, but demand celebration.
I completely agree but I would like to point out that a literal reading of the Bible would not exclude all homosexual acts, sex, between two woman is completely tolerable within the context of this law. So would homoromantic relationships between two men. The law is less strict than people today often think.
So Awesomely Explained, Thank you, Dan!
So if men having sex is considered immoral and ‘dehumanizing’ because they can’t procreate, is a woman born without the ability to procreate also no longer human since they can’t have kids?
No, because the woman has a medical condition that keeps her from a pregnancy that would normally happen naturally. A healthy male and a healthy female can produce offspring naturally. Healthy same sex partners would still be unable to produce offspring.
@@thomassandoval8025 you didnt watch the vid, he said that having or not having kids is not a sin
@imgay8996 it's isn't a sin, but the possibility is still there between two healthy individuals of the opposite sex. There is no possibility for people of the same sex.
@@thomassandoval8025 okay so?
If sex was about procreation, that would mean my grandparents had to have had sex at least twice. My intuitive revulsion to things I find icky is telling me otherwise…
If what you say is true, then having children would not matter, and no one would exist. pleasure is a byproduct for procreation, an incentive. Any child understands this....
@@harrymurray9702biological males have sex for pleasure not for procreation ,
@@harrymurray9702it don't matter if it would not be anymore people born , you don't decide for each individualist biological males , we are living in that time where each biological male decide for himself only
Dan argues that reading any text at all, you use your own sort of dictionary and is therefore, subjective and of your own opinion. Does Dan deny prophets/apostles from having authority from God or do they just simply speak from their own opinion as well?
Furthermore, Dan ironically explains what HIS version of the definition of the words chosen of these texts mean. Thanks for your opinion Dan, but it directly contradicts the Spirit and what God has said through His servants.
But even as you yourself argue, _all_ sexual relations are - according to the Bible - inherently unclean, and it is in any case sinful to have sex outside marriage. Unless you can find Biblical support for gay marriage, that means all homosexual relations are sinful by default.
Which is inherently bigoted and homphobe. It's baffling the mental gymnastics people make in order to make the Bible better than it is, even atheists fall for that!
Succinct, to the point, clear. Exceptional pedagogy. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Only if you delusional, lol.
Well done, Dan.
I get that. I feel ickiness when there is a reference to hetero intercourse.
Hmm, I'm not sure I'm understanding Dan's framing of Paul's perspective. In 1 Cor 7, I see Paul acknowledging desire and prohibiting sexual neglect, and that people should have sex to prevent Satan from tempting. The only time he suggests should they should explicitly be "apart" is for prayer. Where does he say sex should "not be with the passion of desire" like the Gentiles, or that people should ONLY have JUST enough sex to suppress desire? I feel like I'm missing something.
You're not missing anything. Dan is wrong
@@leahunverferth8247 It seems I missed 1 Thess 1:3-5. There it speaks about taking a vessel with holiness and honor, not with lustful passion like the gentiles.
Yeah, there's definitely the contrast between using sexuality in a holy/honorable way vs. the inordinate passion of the gentiles in chapter 4. But interpreting this as limiting sex in a lawful context (marriage) to as little as possible is false. The gentle world is full of adultery, homosexuality, even bestiality and other acts of fornication. Don't be like them who will satisfy themselves with whatever they can. Act in a controlled, lawful way. No premarital sex, no adultery, etc. Many more applications could be made but none of this limits the lawful expression of sexuality in marriage (except as concerns the needs of the man or woman - did the woman just have a baby? Is someone sick?, Etc).
@@leahunverferth8247 Yeah, there are various ways to read it. "Not with passionate lust" insofar as it infringes on decency, or "not with passionate lust" insofar as it is passionate. Unfortunately early church fathers were prone to the total exclusionary interpretation, it seems. Augustine was lamentably mechanical in how he saw marriage duties.
the law he mentions only applied to the israelis, since they were the only ones offered the sinai covenant and were the only ones who could/did say "all these things we will do" in response to God's offer.
I am a heterosexual Christian but do not condemn same sex intercourse either homosexuality or lesbianism. Our sexuality is a choice we make before we are born. Part of the blueprint for our life here. Now as the decision is made on Heaven, this means that it has Gods blessing, therefore it is not a sin. As we are all merely mortal humans, who are we to decide what is a sin in Gods eyes?
What are your believes on sex before marriage, outside of marriage?
Why does it matter?
The same as my beliefs on sex after and inside marriage. If both parties are enthusiastically consenting adults, go for it.
Is that biblical marriage, i.e.entering a woman and paying the father or capturing an enemy, going into them and claiming them in marriage, or extra biblical marriage such as legal by contract or common marriage by mutual partnership of consenting adults?
Marriage is a social construct and has been around way before Christianity.
For the life of me, I don't the distinction between "being" homosexual vs. "acting" homosexual. On paper, I suppose this fine line exists, but not in human reality or living. For example, what if it was moral to be Jewish as long as you never did anything that was Jewish. Or: you can be a woman as long as you never act like a woman. Or: it's moral to be heterosexual, as long as you never engaged in heterosexual acts. Kinda crazy and unrealistic, isn't it?
What even is sin at this point
Most things that’s what ppl don’t get. You can stop being gay and you would still be viewed by god as a sinner the difference is a beliver in Christ his sins are blinded to god because of Jesus blood but a non believer is in trouble because there’s no one (Jesus) to cover your sins.
Tell the truth Dan love you my brother King 👑🌹👑👑
So no reverse cow girl?
Absolutely not, sinner
Is throwing it back at terminal velocity seen as ok is the real question.
No, instead we'll have reverse cowboy ;-)
I'm not convinced of the technical point that “opposing x” is prejudicial towards members _on the basis of_ their membership in a particular group, when the group prosed as the target is “those who x”, because that's a tautology. If we accept that, then opposing murder (for example) is bigotry, since it prejudicial towards those who murder. In general, we can _always_ construct the group against whom _anything_ is bigoted, and that voids the term of any expressiveness or utility. So unless we want to give up on the word “bigotry”, I think this argument _as stated_ should be dismissed. More concerning is the possibility that the x being opposed is constructed _backwards_ from the group in order to exploit this logical subtlety-and as becomes clear when we compare these two viewpoints, yup, that's (when stripped to its core) probably what's going on here.
I can do nothing but cheer for the rest of the presentation, though-not least for the admission into the discussion of the “ick” reaction and the reaction _to_ that reaction, which I think is a substantial and under-discussed part of the puzzle of where we are.
Thank you for your service. :)
I think the key qualifier is obstinant and unreasonable. Is it unreasonable to prejudge other based on their behaviors? That's fundamentally a values question. We all prejudge people based on certain behaviors like theft, violence, dishonesty, etc., etc. There are plenty of sexual acts that get you prejudged as well, depending on the person doing the judging. I *don't* think it's reasonable to equate judging people on their behaviors with judging people based on the color of skin that they were born with.
Who are you to adjudicate what is an “unreasonably” held belief?
Dan, thank you. The points you shared and elucidated is phenomenally enlightening and curative.
Also, phenomenally wrong, lol.
Yeah I've been researching the issue for ages and I've come to similar conclusions as Dan. He's done a great job.
A desire for something, even when born with it, does not mean it's part of the natural order. Desires may be right or wrong, good or evil, whether born with them or not. In the case of homosexuality, the light or law of nature is obvious: a man and a woman's body go together; a man and a man or a woman and a woman do not. Desires don't change this.
So then what then? What does someone who is saved who realizes their gay do? That should be the question. At the end of the day, the verses in Leviticus and countless in the New Testament have been proven to be speaking on manifestations of homosexual sex. With the common Adam and Eve argument, what about intersex people who are quite literally in between. That is also a 3rd sex as well. Would their whole existence be against "nature" because God created only male and female? Life isn't binary or black and white. We are complex creatures made by a complex God.
@@earth2sageee A person who is saved and has temptations towards homosexuality must repent and fight that temptation just like we must fight and repent of every other sin.
Exceptions to the normal genetic makeup of man or woman are rare only prove the rule that there is only a man or a woman. You don't look at someone whose missing an arm and say "oh I guess human nature is not to have arms. It's not black and white like I thought." Of course human nature is to have arms; when that's different we know something went wrong. This matter is black and white or we could say xx and xy.
@@leahunverferth8247 okay but then when fighting temptation, what does this person do? is it like oh your celibate now! good luck with that! ? also exceptions to male and female prove there is more than just male and female just by their existence as they tend to not have a dominant sex. it's much more common than we think it is. their chromosomal variations make them who they are. XXY, XXX, XO, 45, 47, etc.
@@earth2sageee That person does not need to be celibate. A man can marry a woman and a woman can marry a man. However, it wouldn't be wise to do this when struggling with homosexual temptations. The answer is to be much in prayer, much in the Word, and accountable to a godly church that exercises biblical discipline. God has strength to conquer every temptation.
Human nature very obviously has either male or female. The strategy of deceit is to obfuscate that which is clear and obvious.
@@leahunverferth8247 "a godly church that exercises biblical discipline."
There is no "biblical discipline," because the Bible is not univocal.
"God has strength to conquer every temptation."
One's orientation, straight or gay or in-between, has been proven to be innate and immutable. There are no verified cases of anyone ever having been able to change their orientation, whether through prayer or any other means.
Than you, Dan- excellent
unfortunately, an intelligent response is always going to fail with bigots.
But you have to keep trying.
I think the internet is giving people the other side now. Society can change. National opinion on gay marriage changed. It's a slow process though. I don't know if when I opposed gay marriage decades ago I was a bigot. I can barely remember why I even though it was wrong. I was going through a religious phase, thats part. So culturally and religiously brainwashed I guess.
@@joecheffo5942
fair enough. I suppose I was being a little hyperbolic for rhetorical effect. You're right, society can and does change - but it's difficult. People need to be willing to change though, and that's the problem. they don't like change being forced upon them, it needs to come from within.
@@joecheffo5942that’s fair! I was against my own sexuality because I was taught(indoctrinated) from a young age that it was wrong and sinful. The deeper into religion I went the more I fought it. The less “religious” and freer in my faith I became, the more accepting I became of my sexuality
@@joecheffo5942 i used to think it was wrong but only because of the two references in the bible in 1 cor 6.9 and 1 tim 1.10. i just without thinking presumed there must be some reason for it, and like dan says it felt icky. when i discovered that those verses were mistranslated, i changed my mind pretty quickly.
Saying that it no longer matters is a slippery slope. When we can see that grace leads us to realize that marriage, adoption, and hygiene makes it so homosexual sex is no longer a sin. Not just doesn't matter anymore, but not a sin.
but marriage, adoption and hygiene all existed then too, gays weren't allow to marry but still couples lived as they were married in hiding
Perfectly done!
Wow thank you for this video may god bless you ❤️
In the racy Song of Solomon there is no mention of procreation
Hey I’m a Christian! I don’t think you will read this or anything but if you do that would be great. Your ability to formulate an argument is phenomenal, you have a good structural thesis. But it’s oddly political which isn’t Biblically accurate or right to assume. I don’t think the person you are debating is making a good argument, the procreation argument isn’t the best, but I don’t think your points are the best formulated responses as you seem to also be rationalising your own beliefs with cherry picking parts of the Bible or context. No hate towards you whatsoever, I admire your amazing ability to debate such a topic, but your argument isn’t as structurally sound as the overwhelmingly pleasing comments make it out to be. I would so love to see a sit down conversation about this with a Christian who’s understanding and kind. Hope you have a lovely day.
A "dictionary fallacy"? What is he talking about?? He wasn't using the dictionary to make an argument, it was to define terms. This response seems lazy
I think the argument is based on natural law theory. It's not necessarily about procreation as much as it's about the sex oriented towards procreation.
@trapd00rspider
The dictionary will give several definitions. Some will even trace the word back to its origin.
I don't think there is such a thing as a dictionary fallacy
this video's a little hard to watch casually on a phone, for example, because of the mis-matched volume levels between your clips and his. this is an old video, but it'd be appreciated if you'd keep a more careful eye to audio mixing on the future ♥️
but isn't the natural world a fallen world?
Does the rule of not lying with a man as with a woman apply to their slaves? So far, my understanding of biblical laws is that they applied to Isrealites while foreign slaves were possessions, not people.
I was already convinced of all your arguments, but I really like the succinct and scholarly way you present this. Unfortunately, these arguments will only be convincing to people who are educated enough to understand the words and open-minded enough to consider them. It is clear to me that God condemns the lusts of the flesh and infidelity, and upholds chastity and fidelity or marriage without regard to the gender of their partner.
I feel like you should be an attorney
Oh, there's that archery again. Sheesh.
Paul is so brilliant, saying that a husband and his wife should come together for intercourse so that they won't have sexual desire!! 😂
In this one line in 1st Corinthians 7 the germ of the Catholic theory of the transmission of Original Sin is present. 😠😡🤬
I'm bigoted against people who commit crimes, not because I can see that their acts are wrong in our socially constructed idea of wrong, but because my intuition tells me murder and traffic violations are icky
Indeed, the line needs to be empathy. Murder hurts people on every way. A guy being born gay and wanting to live with another gay guy doesn’t hurt my heterosexuality at all.
@@tripleraze321 Neither of us are better than convicted murderers. The imprisoned deserve just as much empathy as our mothers.
@@b.l.8755 I agree with you 100%, in fact it is because of our empathy, that we are obligated to hold people who commit murder accountable. Being empathetic does not negate or remove accountability, it actually requires it. It is your empathy for the child murdered, or even more personal, the empathy for yourself understanding how much it would hurt you to be murdered. This, despite attempting to have empathy and understanding the attacker, also demands accountability to prevent such hurt being inflicted again. You are right much of our interaction is a social construct, and what could better guide the further construction or even removal of past constructs, than empathy. Empathy should be the guide we use to make social decisions, and it’s that reason I would never condemn or judge someone gay. They are not hurting me or my family at all.
@@tripleraze321 it seems they receive nothing but complete support or complete condemnation. Where is the gay married pastor that preaches to gay Christians against the obvious harms they do to each other in the gay sexual community?
@@b.l.8755 The "harm" done by those in the LGBT community is no different from the "harm" done by the straight community. Both communities have the capacity for abuse of all types, and both can commit any crime.
As for where the gay, married pastors are, I'm sure you realize the difficulty of finding that subset. The amount of people fitting the category of Christian[Married[LGBT-friendly church[Gay[Desire to preach[Church in need of a preacher[Church allowing of LGBT leadership]]]]]] is, I'd wager, an incredibly small community to say the least. Also I'm sure that pastor would still be preaching to a primarily straight audience, considering demographics.
The whole schtick of caring about whether or not other people are reproducing is so weird. You don't look at a straight couple and say "gee I sure hope they're pumping her full of babies".
You know what really brings goodness to humanity? Not being bigoted.
Buddy. Old AND New Testament- Hebrews 13:4. Mark 7:20-23. Ephesians 5:5. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20. 1 Corinthians 7:1-2. Galatians 5:19-21. Colossians 3:5. Jude 1:7. Ephesians 5:3. I could go on. And Matthew 19:4-6 says homosexual marriage is no bueno, so literally any homosexual sex must be outside of marriage and therefore fornication.
There is no rationalizing, fornication is prohibited and condemned many times throughout the Bible. There is no reality in which fornication is not sinful per the Bible. If you're not going to pay attention to something as basic as that, don't even bother pretending Christian faith. Just pick another faith that has less rules, since you clearly don't like rules and don't believe that the Bible is true-if you did, you'd have some proper fear about the spiritual consequences of intentionally spreading misinformation about Christianity.
Matthew 19:4-6 is talking about divorce, not gay marriage. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because if sexual assault, not same sex relationships. Not to mention, the NT doesn't explain exactly what fornication is. Remember, Christianity was a doomsday cult, so most of the teachings found in the NT do not apply today.
@@jackcimino8822 Jesus explicitly defines marriage as one man and one woman before he addresses divorce. I didn't mention Sodom and Gomorrah, but every reference to it states that it was destroyed for sexual immorality-them being rapists was just a cherry on top.
And hey if you don't think the NT applies today, you clearly don't believe in Christianity, so you don't have a dog in this fight-so why are you even commenting on this?
Yeah I'm surprised his argument came down to interpreting the Bible as written by the societies of the time and not divinely inspired. The truth is the bible is clearly against homosexual acts, even in the new testament..
@@kenrodriguez5570 Well, after browsing the rest of this guy's videos I have yet to see a good take on anything, so not surprising.
@@jadedandbitterso true
Funny how so many people funnel their dysfunctional ideas into their interpretations of the Bible.
That's true , and Dan, as well as some of the Christophobe bigots on here are really good at that
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true.
Yes, I read an article several years ago on the “ick” factor. I think that still exists. The ick factor plays into the aversion to same-sex sex, particularly between men.
The thing as people’s consciences become warped through habitual sin, our ability to discern how gross are sexual perversions goes away. If you don’t find it abhorrent, all that means is that you're not in a state of grace, and you’ve lost the ability to discern that natural order of things-which doesn’t mean as Dan believes according to nature, but according to the proper teleology of a thing.
@@JudeMalachiSo I guess all of those giraffes, and ducks, and dolphins, and salamanders, and dogs, and hundreds of other species that engage in homosexual sex are also fallen from grace, right? So sad that all of these wild animals are going against the natural order.
Ye gods, I need to save this video to show anyone who try to tell me it's a sin.
OK, so your new God is Dan I see.
So is everyone going to ignore explicit teaching against homosexual acts in the bible? In the NT?
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true. We need to remember the bible was written by man
We have no idea how marriage began as a social institution, and religion does not own marriage. Marriage predates the beginning of Hebrew social structures as a formalized religious and political state, as well as their reformation into a monotheistic system. It existed in isolated societies, including tribes.
Yet the guy makes his assertion of what marriage is for/why it started, as if he were there.
That’s what I call “a lie”.
And that was not his first lie. Making up stuff so you can support your existing belief is lying.
It’s not just being mistaken, it is promoting falsehoods for self aggrandizing purposes.
It amuses me that atheists are more concerned with factual information and being truthful than are the people who claim the liar is the devil and the enemy, and who then proceed to lie like…well…their professed enemy.
Of all the stunning hypocrisy they demonstrate, that one has to be the most staggering.
Nice equivocation fallacy around the 5:30 mark. The natural order doesn’t mean according to nature in Aristotle. It means some more akin to the proper teleology of something.
This is SO good.
Thank you.
Nothing wrong with being homosexual.
Sex is a gift from God. Some Christian churches seem really confused about it. I had a SBC father and boy was that confusing!
“It’s not something that people are able to choose”…Yeah definitely a Mormon.
lol wat
I think that it is probably not our best approach to try to support gay people by debating over what the Bible really means to say, as if the original, "real" Bible would have been something wonderful, wise and inspired by "God". This is giving too much credence to Bible mythology. Why not speak the real truth, that the Bible is not a credible source of moral authority, that there are no such real things as sacred texts that were inspired from a magical, invisible realm and written by specially anointed men?
*Equivocation on sin:* The apologist should have combined his two sources on sin and admitted that the “mark” sin misses is bibical dictates, not the good of humanity. Instead, he goes against his first citation and claims sin is about not doing good for people.
We don’t need a lot of babies. We would do better with fewer babies and less oppression, so ending homophobia would be good for humanity.
@trapd00rspider Overpopulation comes across in multiple ways. Rainforests are steadily disappearing to make houses, and grow food. We need them to breathe well. We have global warming due to excess CO2 production, which is in part of function of population. About 3 billion birds are killed annually by house cats. We could manage these issues more easily if there were fewer people. Did you assume that immediate food supply is the only issue?
My post was about the good of humanity.
Denigrating people for how they were born goes against that.
More gay families means a lower population growth, since a higher percentage of them adopt children.
What about Leviticus 20:13 that says If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them? I personally don't subscribe with the whole concept of sin in Christianity, but could you address this?
Unless you are from Isreael these rules don't apply.
Don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God's kingdom.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
@@Dieg0xCl0utin this context, sexual immorality also includes having sex to have children, rather than just satiating desire with one's woman. Paul and Jesus were both against further procreation at that time.
It's the same logic found here, the act of men laying with each other as "they would with women" was considered sinful because it went against the hierarchy of "men should always be on top".
How is trusting the judgement of the Most High unreasonable?
Also this left me curious, where are you getting your morals from? You clearly do not trust God to tell you what is right or wrong so divine command theory is off the table. You also reject natural law so what exactly is good to you? Because I have seen you enact moral judgement upon people so you should demonstrate why your moral claims are true.
Have you ever read the Bible from back to front. I suggest you do. I suggest you look particularly at the parts of the Bible we are all so swift to gloss over. Look at Deutronomy 22: 28-29 if you need somewhere to start. Then tell me everything in the Bible is true.
Interesting they thought Jesus was coming back quickly, forward to today and there's still people that think he's coming back imminently... hope they're not holding their breath
Say it louder for the fundies in the back👏🙌
By the way love your videos.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,