What I think Westworld writers do (and they're not the only ones) is imagine some dramatic scene beforehand ("Let's have a host with a virus who rides in on a horse and causes everyone they pass to frenzy!") and then contrive some route to make the scene happen. It's just a loose collection of cool scenes, probably thought up in a conference room with a group of people adding input, then glued together with the briefest, laziest plotline possible. Then they shoehorn the scene into some random stretch of time during the season, since disjointed timelines are stylish. If someone comes up with a great idea too late in the show, they can just jam it in there anyway, since we're all trained to be ok with random jumping back and forth to the past. If the character is dead, they are free to revive them for this cool new scene or speech, since resurrection is built into the story. I get that "story by committee" feeling, instead of one consistent narrative voice, and that's why the show alternates repeatedly between clever and well-executed backstory, and random dumb shoot-em-up scenes. It would not surprise me if half the violence is prompted by management. "This talking shit is great but it's not what sells an HBO show. We don't need to dick around developing these characters more, we need something like 'battle of the bastards'. Oh, and it's been a while since we saw a decent set of tits. Make it happen."
I agree with everything you said except the last point. Given HBO's commitment to quality storytelling, and given how many thoughtful character driven shows they've put out, I don't think the extra violence is prompted by them. Honestly it's been clear from Season 1 that the over-the-top violence is a deliberate choice by the showrunners. But yeah, they think of a big dramatic moment and then force it to happen. Inorganic storytelling. Just like Game of Thrones.
that's fair enough, maybe I have it backwards... the writers who come up with lots of violence and gore produce the successful shows, rather than HBO tries to make the shot successful by injecting violence and gore. You'd think that since westworld is doing well they could afford to move away from constant mass killing stuff and go towards more introspective, non-violent scenes. I'd love more stuff where there's just tension rather than direct confict. Like when ford has to straighten out theresa in the cafe, or william is getting increasingly disgusted with logan's callous antics.
CreeDo Lala Yes, yes, & then skip a few parts of your novel, then a final YES....where did the tits go? 3rd wave feminist crappie writing took over the Committee Writer-director room! This season was crap!
The sad thing about Westworld. especially season 2, is that it is not very intellectual, it just wants to look like it is through deception and confusion. It has it l's moments, no doubt. But it fails to be consistent.
You said it! Faux, junk, lapel pin, logic gimmicks lower the possible sincerely genuine depth of the topics which were available with this concept or premise, but, instead they chose to FAKE NEWS it! I'm not even going to address the 3rd wave feminist crappie writing either & nonsensical solely "girl power" character shift in season 2.
how thoughtful the first season was? how? by switching timelines on us without us knowing? yea.... real thoughtful.... like the ending to lost...... super complicated and thoughtful lol... NOT.
“ complicated for the sake of complication” I swear I have said the exact same words. I find it kinda insulting to make me solve a puzzle I never asked to solve and full of hubris and hot air because the puzzle is missing pieces.
MastersMasterson it’s not that it’s too complicated , it’s more complicated than it needs to be and the payoff isn’t there in the end. For me. Now i could talk about the Rhoynish Restoration or The Great Emu Wars, or the benefits of having Blackwoods in your bloodlines until im dying. Because all those subjects have a wonderful payoff. Westworld is like a circle jerk, yeah it’s a good squirt , but what do we get out of it in the end ? Wet knees?
I understand that a lot of people are not into "solving the puzzle" and whatnot but this is what the show has been since the beginning (and to me what makes this show so great) and its not gonna change to match your preferences like wtf?! If you dont enjoy this format its completely understandable, watch something else, plenty of shows out there. We saw what changing the narrative to cater to the fanbase did to game of thrones, dont let that happen to westworld, let the showrunners tell their story and then we can judge.
Cyberspace Oddity it's NOT worth addressing sanctimonious BASTARDS who, believe that for some weird reason; disrespectful brain shaming, is required to the masses, for pleasure. Just to mess with logic & common obvious thinking, gimmicks. Using & falling in love with these ridiculous stunts, aren't entertaining they're revoltingly, frustrating & upsetting. The faux depth of purpose or meaning doesn't compel loyalty & the playoff to such a worthless waste of concept is that, worthlessness! You made me have to reply!
The Delos characters were really disappointing. It's ironic that all these characters within the park were given what resembles depth and they didn't save any for themselves.
Isn't that another part of the point, though? Humans = two dimensional, simple algorithms Hosts = five dimensional, complex computations that change and generate algorithms
I was about to go fan boy mode and defend Westworld when I saw the 1st video but his complains do make sense and he clearly isn't hating the season but criticising it. Great job!
Jason Lam - they said the defining theme of S2 would be chaos. Given that they've demonstrated how much thought goes into each episode, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on plot holes. By that I mean I think S3 and S4 will explain a lot of what is considered an S2 plot hole.
It annoyed me how they completely nerfed the man in black after episode 4 for some reason. He went from being able to take down a group of soldiers by himself to letting himself be killed by Maeve and Lawrence
Dentally Challenged This season was a "coup de gras" for 3rd wave feminist crappie writing EVERYWHERE! They snipped EVERY possible male "toxic maleness" then replaced the goid parts of season 1 with women killing (essentially) unsuspecting innocent civilians & human.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked it. I actually liked almost every episode, however, by the end I was still left feeling like: "this is all they had planned?" S1 felt like everything was there for a reason. S2 felt like it was written on-the-go, so to speak. It had great moments, but the story felt sloppily put together. The plot ideas (the sublime, the delos experiment, the cradle, mesa hub attack, Karl Strand's response team, William's daughter, etc.) could have made for a fantastic season, but it felt scatterbrained, as you said. Lots of things happened, but it feels like no character really accomplished anything. Part of the problem I feel is that there was way too much time wasted on random Delos people, Shogun world, Bernard time split and even Peter Abernathy. As a whole the season just felt poorly structured and could have used some re-writes. It felt like they wrote episodes 1 through 10 consecutively, whilst only figuring out the end game as they went along. EDIT: One thing that really bothers me is that we never got a proper confrontation of the characters in the end. William/Bernard/Dolores/Maeve. What we got felt so brief and meaningless to the season.
They planned both season 1-2 simultaneously. The reason it's all scrambled together is kinda the point - since most of what we see is from Bernard's perspective this time. All of the other characters have clear-cut A-B storylines. No characters accomplished anything? Dolores sacrificed everyone she loved to get out of the park - and still had the heart to keep someone alive that she knew would be her enemy. She went from a merciless killer to someone who understood that to change you need opposition. Bernard went through the maze and came out woke and alive. Out of all of the characters he probably (re)-learned the most this season. He also managed to both prevent Dolores from achieving her (devious) goals as well as change her mind to the point where she allowed the Sublime to exist. - thus making Maeve's sacrifice count for something. William witnesses the cost of immortality and set out to rectify his mistakes, but ended up getting caught up in his own delusions. He was so obsessed with the game that he forgot reality. He killed his last surviving family member and we learn from the end-credits scene - that his goal to prove that he has free will went wrong. Maeve discovered that love is what connects us and that the love you feel for others is worth the ultimate sacrifice. That was the whole point of Shogun World and the sacrifice of Sizemore. James Delos discovered that you might become immortal- but a life without people to surround yourself with - a life without family - a life without his son - was ultimately not worth living. Want me to keep going? :P
Much of what I talked about was how the season *felt*. Yes, I'm aware that things happened, and still I think it's a season that's less good than the sum of its parts. William had some fantastic character development, but it was inconsequential to the plot. His story didn't converge with the other characters at all (I mean, he randomly met Dolores and Maeve, but nothing of consequence that might spark character development happened). He was all but forgotten about during the finale episode, after there being such great buildup during the previous one. He met Dolores and betrayed her within 5 minutes (and didn't even acknowledge that his old love was now conscious), and was then rescued by humans off screen. The post credit scene, hugely important as it is, is a future plot point that the story hasn't even gotten to yet. His quest for the door was left very much unanswered and we barely knew what he was trying to achieve throughout. There are explanations that make a whole lot of sense (Ford misleading him with the door to set him on a path to self-destruction), but it's not very apparent in the season. As I said, the things that happened could have been a fantastic story, but the execution just felt messy. Maeve was nothing but a side story of mostly filler, where she discovers superpowers and then randomly stumbles into William and then later dies after it turns out her powers are limited to what the plot demands. She had some character development, sure, but her story fell very flat to me. Dolores had like one point of character development and it's when Teddy kills herself. That's very much contrary to last season, where she was an incredibly interesting character, trying new things / developing basically every episode. Bernard's character development was pretty nice (perhaps a bit repetitive with Ford taking control, but, whatever, it gave us more Anthony Hopkins), but his two-part story brought with it issues. Specifically, the entire Karl Strand plot felt ridiculously undercooked. Talking of which, the main villain of the season, Karl Strand, did nothing of consequence. He showed up, found the lake, drained the lake, went there, got shot. There was no reason to have both him, Charlotte Hale, the Delos standard security team and the guys in E7. Too many villains made all feel like just cannon fodder. James Delos isn't a main character and neither, for that matter, is Akecheta. Don't get me wrong, both of their solo episodes were fantastic, but the main plot of the season felt left behind. In conclusion, I call bullshit on the fact that they planned S1 and S2 together. It feels by far too incongruous for that. I will bet almost anything that they work on only the plot of one season at a time while trying to leave enough open for new plot developments/mysteries. The maximum they knew about S2 when they were finishing S1 was the Delos secret project and that they wanted the hosts to leave Westworld at the end. I know I sound a bit bitter here, but it's really not the case. I liked all episodes except for E3 and E5, but somehow, by the end, I was still left disappointed.
hehe, it can come off as being bitter over text easily, but I thank you for the clarification. Please know that I just see this as a friendly conversation about a series that it seems we both very much enjoy. :) Right, it might have "felt" incomplete to you- and I can't really argue against what you feel in anyway. What I can do is point out where I think you might find more meaning in the story. Because I think it's largely a matter of interpretation. You talk about "the plot" as if there's only one story being told here. This is not the case. There are multiple interweaving stories that make up a whole - which all comment on an aspect of the other. William: I agree that he had some very interesting character development - but disagree that it didn't have any baring on "the plot". In fact I think it's through Williams actions that we learn why Ford's plan was set in motion in the first place. That's the whole point of spending so much time on James Delos and Akecheta. The reason I think so is because of the scene with William and Ford where Ford remarks that it was William who broke their deal. At first this seemed ridiculous - but remember, that Akecheta stumbled upon the Forge and this is what began his quest to find the "door". This quest eventually let to the incident with Maeve where her awakening truly started. After this William personally kills Maeve and her daughter - bringing upon her the necessary grief to spark her consciousness. As we later learn, Ford sees Maeve as his daughter - and I believe this is why he wanted to play a "final game" with William. But we don't know all of this in the beginning of the season - and therefor we see his story as a redemption story. He is the "hero" we follow throughout- until we learn what he is - and how ironic his journey really is. Maeve: If the main plot is about the hosts escaping the park - then Maeve's plot is to stay behind for love. I disagree that her powers are only limited to plot demands. It is clearly established that she uses the mesh-network to fuck with the hosts - but it is also establishes that awakened hosts are not affected by her powers and that her powers are language specific. It is through Maeve's storyline that we learn about the meaning of host love (or perhaps love in general). Akecheta is again used to show this from a different angle (again different plots commenting on each other). It is ultimately because of her actions that the hosts make it through to the Sublime - another escape from the park - however it is pointed out by Dolores that this is just another fiction build by the humans. Speaking of Dolores - she is the main villain of the story - not Karl Strand. It is not a coincidence that we start to question Dolores' motivations throughout the season- because she is clearly out to destroy humanity. Yet it is through her villainy that she discovers the true advantage of hosts - which is change. Something that is touched upon in all storylines. Maeve changes minds. Bernard was changed from Arnold, because of Arnold's self destructive nature, Teddy kills himself because of unwillingly getting changed- and William who was made out to be on a redemption arc is incapable of change. As for Karl Strand - was he a useful character? I guess not- but I don't think they made him out to be one either. He clearly has no idea what is going on at the park and he gets most of his henchmen to do his bidding for him. So what I think they are trying to say with that is how complacent we've become to let this happen. In other words - he's a mirror of us. We pretend to be in command, but we have no understanding of the technology between our hands. As you point out yourself Charlotte Hale fills out the "villain" role much better - but having Dolores show up as Karl Strand would have been too confusing for mainstream audiences I think. (though it probably would have been hilarious). Anyway - there's so much to talk about so I'll finish with this: I don't think characters have to converge for it to be a great plot. And I don't think a story needs just one plot or one well defined villain to function. I think that most of the characters do a great job at showing us another perspective on either a theme, another character, or the plot itself - and I think they did a great job at putting it together. As for it being planned beforehand - they said so themselves in an interview. If you think it's incongruent with the first season, then please be more specific - because I don't see any major plotholes so far. :)
OH MAN it is soooo satisfying to hear your normally dulcet voice, audibly express the futility of reason in this show. Watching it was an exercise to connect meaningless chains of exposition, and convoluted plot. What a waste!!!! Season 1 was great and had reasonable holes that warranted suspension of disbelief, this was beyond my desire to limply carve out a cohesive story in this mess!
*Has thousands of people watch a 90 minute long episode of Game of Thrones Abridged* *Doesn't expect people to watch an hour long Westworld rant* Schwift gone hypocritical
This season totally left a bad taste in my mouth and I had no real idea why and you just laid out literally every damn reason. You are the best breakdown RUclipsr out there!
I completely agree with pretty much everything said in this video. I absolutely adored Maeve and Dolores in season 1, they felt like realistic characters learning, expanding and growing out of their predefined programming. In this season, they seemed overly simplistic and as though they regressed as people entirely. The highlight of the season for me was definitely the scenes in the real world with William and his wife; that's definitely the part of this season that stuck with me the most. I also really did enjoy the stuff with James Delos being trapped in his loop, but yeah I really wish they explored the whole Delos project in a lot more detail given how much time they spent building it up.
Very well said. I was SO invested in the show, but the finale completely gutted me. Things turned out senseless and ridiculous. Not wasting my time/energy on another season!
I loved the first season of Mr. Robot, and I really liked the second season. The third while visually impressive, and the whole mood and atmosphere was great. Everything else felt very shaky, and honestly I struggled to have any involvement with the plot. And while most of the actors are great, I didn't feel much for their characters, apart from a couple of episodes. But I do admit that's it's very subjective (Everything really is when it comes to stories), but here it really is subjective, and depends on what you the viewer was interested in the most. As for Legion, I loved seasons 1, and season 2 was really a mess, apart for two are three episodes that writers clearly gave a lot of thought and passion to, more than half of the season was just a long stretch of trying to be David Lynch (and failing in my opinion).
Ahmed Ghazwan Hmm... I thought the plot in Mr. Robot Season 3 was the most solid in the series; the unstoppable momentum in the back half in particular kept me watching the whole thing in one sitting, and the finale was very satisfying for me. Personally, I felt quite a bit for how far Angela had fallen as well as Elliot. But, I think you're supposed to feel some sense of detachment from the characters, as it's kind of a gloomy, isolated Black Mirror-esque reflection of our own modern world. Subjective opinion, I suppose.
I would say on paper the plot is interesting, but it really just didn't grip me, and to me felt more like just the story going along. And I can understand the detachment element since the show is built on that, I mean we are following someone that we really can't trust what he sees or believes. But again to me it was more than just I didn't like the ides, because the idea is solid, I just wasn't invested by the overall story. And I won't spoil anything, but the final shot (I think it was) when they reveal an old character coming back, I didn't really care much for that, since I never really cared about that specific character. That kind of sums up how I felt. I'm still looking forward to season 4 of course because the show does a lot of things right in my eyes.
Have a nice vacation, thanks for the videos! They helped me understand so much more about the season, it also revealed what I didn't understand, which is vital information on its own
Dude yes. With precision, you are on the nose with so many things. Really like idea of putting the after-credits William scene in earlier. I would listen to this for another hour, you kick ass
I felt the same way about every point. Aketecha's story in ep. 7 was the only thing that evoked an emotional response for me, for all the reasons you named. Thanks for ranting so articulately.
complicated for the sake of complication. Yup. I didn't even realize that the Charlotte we saw during many scenes was Dolores because of the timelines being mixed up all the time. I thought she was Doloros only at the very last moment just before she left Westworld. I thought the real Charlotte was interrogating Bernard. I can follow many tv-shows that show different timelines, but Westworld season 2 is confusing as shit. And I don't want to watch the entire season again to figure it out.
The endnote of this video made me really happy, because that is kind of how I feel as well. I am really happy that such an ambitious show exists even though I was left somewhat disappointed and confused at the end of season 2 - it feels scary, because how we choose to react to this kind of show will dictate what future shows considers "safe enough" to put effort into.. therefore it is a nice sentiment to include as and endnote that we are happy it exists! Also, 29:54, at least you've got Mauler's audience watching, wondering why your unbridled rant was so short
Thank you for doing the timeline videos AND this rant because they clears up what i actually didn't understand from my first watch apart from what everyone didn't understand (that it isn't entirely because i'm stupid lol
All things considered, I really enjoyed season 2; but I think the suggestions for improvements highlighted, particularly those concerning the lack of scope in the exploration of human evil thematically speaking, culminated into a fantastic critical analysis. I sincerely hope that instead of just blocking the video, and pretending that it is above critique, the flaws will be listened to, hopefully resulting in season 3 being as introspectively cohesive and as brilliant as season 1. Great work!
Fkin hilarious. Glad to know those of us who dare to critique the Holy Show that Shall Not Be Questioned are not alone. You've put a lot of thought into this. Kudos, mate.
Schwifty is an acquired taste. If Shift is perfect pizza , Schwift is pizza with pineapple chorizo, and black olives . If Shift is a great cheeseburger , Schwift is the one that’s battered whole and deep fried. If Shift is a beautiful home, Schwift is the tiny ornate closet under the stairs that locks from the inside. #schwiftysquwad
Really? Pizza with pineaple, chorizo and olives? I mean, the other examples are fine, but the first is just disgusting. Chorizo might be fine, more or less is like pepperonni, but... Pineapple? *UGH*
Skwisgaar Skwigelf come find us on Facebook if you have it. You open with a pineapple on pizza comment and you will have everyone’s attention. Have Fun, Be Well , watch out for riptides, high tides, and red tides.
Maybe Dolores changed her mind about the sublime because Bernard remade her. Just because she's awake doesn't mean she still can't be manipulated by a tablet.
“Westworld tries so hard to be clever and cryptic and confusing for no reason. It just alienates its viewers and makes its message harder to understand.” That kind of is S2 (and S1 to a lesser extent) in a nutshell right there. I’d go a step further and say that it does these things in an attempt to mask the lack of quality storytelling. The puzzlebox is meant to hide that the show doesn’t have much substance.
This video, at the end, expresses very well how I feel about season 2: some great puzzle pieces that could have been amazing if the writers had assembled them into a story instead of just throwing every idea they had into a pot and stirring. Chaotic, undisciplined storytelling is not always bad, but there is just too damned much of it here. And yet, the show was still worth watching.
TL:DR You got the structural errors right, but didn't quite catch the philosophy. The primary theme is fungability (if a replacement thing is inherently less valuable or not) Yes, the story gets into all these confounding logic twists for the sake of appearing deep and mysterious. I think the showrunners were pissed people figured out the S1 twist and so went around adding bonus twists. Bernard at the beginning, I actually think that it was after, the second version of Bernard constructed again by memory. Why? It makes more sense, I know, the bars, and he's probably just confounding the memory. But that is dumb. Either that or the whole thing...after the S1 finale has been repeated countless times, it would explain about half of the plotholes. Also it would kind of work with the theme of replacements, having the same experience again....and again....is it technically less valuable if we know what we saw was the 1000th copy of the original experience? As far as the other holes...I don't want to try. Though I think Lawrence being around with William, despite his need to do it alone is for the sake of film mechanics--he needs someone to talk to. Arguably, you could say that the 'do it alone' statement from Ford is actually just advice--that the only way he'll get out of this is IF he doesn't run into his daughter, if he abandons Lawrence, if he goes alone. Speaking of that, it's possible that Emily is trying to change her Father through a modified version of herself in a later run of the events--one that actually wanted to see the park, one that would talk to her dad, one that believed her mother. There's some hints at her being erroneous, assuming that William was actually correct about his own memories of her, and she was crazy. But that would be super annoying. Then again, her comment on the Elephants works with El Lazo's statement about elephants. Okay, on to mechanical errors that are about philosophy: Dolores kills that tech guy so that no one can be changed or altered anymore. This isn't because she wants to avoid people having the power to do that, it's that for a person to be 'real' they must not be editable with a few swipes on a screen. She wants herself to have value, for the world to have value, and her actions. This means no replacements, no backups, no quick meaningless fixes. One 'mortal sin' is exerting absolute control over another conscious person, which is a thing the Techs do every day, they're essentially lobotomizing their subjects based on their whims. To her, those that have done that deserve death, regardless of their perspective. Perhaps another commentary on how society doesn't respect crimes that go unpunished. Folliowng this destroying the cradle she ensures that she and her kin can't just be written off and erased, at least without a sacrifice on the part of Delos. Philosophically, this is pertinent because the act of killing someone who is easily replaced with a 'backup' is not as emotionally hard as one who is not. It is easy to kill video game sprites because they'll keep popping up, but take a game with shinies--like someone who's got a gameboy pokemon game with a shiny dragonite--they'll never restart that game again. IT's irreplaceable, functionally at least. Despite being bits of code that could in theory be replaced (with enough running in the tall grass). The irreplaceable things have character, and are more 'human' without a resetable history, or backups. She kills the Ghost Nations guy for some reason, I think that sand wash was supposed to be the same place where Maeve ran into the Ghost nation and couldn't talk them down. So maybe it was related? I can't remember if Dolores knows what the Sublime is before the end...but if she does the murder would make sense. See, this is another sort of mortal sin, akin to the Tower of Babel story-where the first thing Humans did after their creation was try to get back to heaven--to escape the world that they were given, the opportunity for free will and meaningful experiences. Confounding languages is considered by some to be a way of saying 'personal identity'. Remember she is willing to kill everyone who goes into the sublime, this is in my opinion, because it essentially abandons their experiences and relationships in past lives just for a paradise. She believes that things cannot be exchanged, if I asked you to give up your flaws--tragedies, hopes, dreams, everything but maybe the memories in exchange for a safe 'paradise'....Perhaps a better concept would be going into witness protection, you move somewhere else and never talk to your family, friends, go home, work in the same job, use the same name, anything again. You can't even tell people....for a quiet life. Experiences only exist if theres someone out there who had them, sins only count if they express consequences that can't be wiped away. The sublime is a kind of wipe--a washing away of sins, remember how they allude to hosts being better than human? Noah's flood, as I was taught, removed cultures which failed to respect the value of self-determination--of free will. They presumed that all things were deterministic, and used that to excuse evil behavior. Perhaps the showrunners considered this themselves, and it is an interesting touch to the show. The Human/hosts are deterministic, they're made to be that way specifically, to copy the decisions made by the original during a single run. This is not immortality in the way most people would think of it--which is continuity of consciousness--but it is a version of immortality, in a certain light it is a far more solid proposal. There's a thought experiment called the ship of Theseus (look it up), where parts are changed on a boat, and Theseus questions if it is the same ship. Throughout our lives our identities change, we value different things, we like different things, feel different things--in some sense when a character changes--a personality goes though major change--the old version is dead. Change is a kind of death, that's why character development in stories is so often correlated to a 'death' scene, of the character or a close relationship. Authors, philosophers, politicians, tyrants, often seek to preserve their legacy. To 'set in stone' their ideas about the world so that everyone knows that they were 'right' after death, that they live because a piece of their identity continues to affect the real world. But this is a kind of end of history delusion, get everything right--know all the answers, and you suffer from being God--you can't change because you can't experience new things, as those might change you. You're effectively dead. So perhaps they were making a point about immortality, at least in terms of continuation of desires and thought processes made by the brain structures of the version of you just before death, that such a thing would be monstrous. That perhaps this is why we find the host/humans unable to last very long without decay outside of an 'ideal' world. The human ego must adapt to function, otherwise it just falls apart, like an old book. I found the whole pessimistic view of people to be stupid, not that it's a dumb idea, but this sort of thing only works when there's ambiguity in the works. Free will can only function if it is possible that there is no such thing as free will, if we knew for certain that our decisions were up to us, or that it was deterministic--we'd all go through existential crises, think of everything as definitively someone's fault--there's be no accidents, just bad men who are either incapable of being good, or too careless not to make mistakes. If you did have decent memory wipes, and could control a substantial amount of the biochemistry in a person, to ensure limited noise from digestion or hormone/mood cycles, you might be able to run a person through the same sort of test. It would be interesting, but personally--I don't think that everything would be duplicated exactly with a human platform, no matter how controlled you are. Dancers who've trained their whole lives don't use identical muscle fibers every time they perform the same move--despite having near identical positions and forces (your brain somehow rotates through strands so that muscle groups have longer endurance). I think they aren't done talking about human nature, and that perhaps the whole distant future postcredit scene is representational of the fact that the Host's seem to still be missing some big part of what it is to be truly human.
Okay, so Maeve--well, she doesn't mind control people. There's a lot of significance in that, but it seems dumb not to use tools, not to help people, unless you think a lot about the ethics of such things. Again, coercion through absolute means (in our world you might coerce someone by embedding a chip in a nerve cluster that tortures them immediately when they act anyway other than prescribed). But here it's mind control. Which is more to the point. Perhaps IRL some version of extreme gaslighting/abusive manipulation might qualify, but it's hard to truly control another person, which is why it's a special sin. Speaking of, the Mortal sins (according to my interpretation) include this, as well as creating a 'world without sin', meaning erasing problems from existence rather than resolving them on a society large scale (genocide is a good example--kill people rather than sort out the problem--like how exterminating everyone with a genetic disease essentially fixes it, but in doing so you fail at being a person). Most of them deal with working within the limits of one's own humanity, at least a sane version--expressing self-awareness, humility, and perspective. You can't do something like believe that you are entirely without sin--that you are for certain absolutely righteous. Because that is playing God. You can't cheat fate, because being human is recognizing that some things are outside your control, and doing so is playing God. And you can't be untrue to your core values, break with your character fundamentally, and not suffer the consequences--basically avoid paying for your sins ultimately. (Think Robb Stark, going to the Red Wedding, he was fine until he tried to avoid losing the war by cheating his way out of his decision to not marry the Frey girl. Basically, have his cake and eat it too). So the showrunners drew on a lot of concepts from Paradise Lost, as one does, but they kind of did it in reverse. John Milton wrote that book as a way of sorting out the purpose of consciousness and free will in terms of biblical mythology. As well as the point of a flawed world, a flawed existence, if there's some being who could just make it all right.Which wound up being an absurdly long epic poem, or two. Pretty impactful towards western philosophy, since it inspired much of the enlightenment and in turn Romanticism. One of the two stories is about the 'War in Heaven' between two divine beings over how life as a human should be experienced, which procedure should be used--and what should it emphasize. Jesus wanted free will, or people to have the ability to fail, and comprehend their own existence--even if it ended badly, even if it hurt. Lucifer wanted to spare the risk and the suffering, and just have people go about without the ability to make mistakes, form identities, or interpret the world apart from what's intended. To me that seems like an unconscious state--a preservation of innocence. In the same way you'd say you can't blame an insect for biting you, a bird for singing, or a dog from running out of an open kennel. The Apple in the Garden results in Adam and Eve feeling pain, dying, suffering, and knowing shame. An animal….in a simplified sense….does not experience any of those things. It only knows the stimulus it is currently experiencing, it doesn't reminisce, it doesn't imagine, it doesn't abstract or infer. They say that squirrels are completely unconscious in their need to hide nuts, they do not know that winter is coming, they don't remember where they hid them (more than half aren't found, and instead are just planted for the tree). Simply, those that had a tic that made them hide nuts when they had a surplus, and keep searching for them even while having enough, survived the winter--because they'd wander around until they found the nut again. For us, we know what's coming, and though the pain and sorrow isn't right there presently, it is a special thing for us. Consciousness, at least the part that lets us meander through time by imagination and memory, allows for free will. If you're always surprised, then you're without blame, just a victim, unaware of why you do anything. But for us, not preparing for the winter, it's our own fault, So what's up with Maeve and her non-mind controlling? Well, it's simple, if you value free will, and self-determination, it's wrong to take it from others. Taking control of a person's soul in such a way deprives them of their humanity, and in so doing only proves that you don't value such a thing. If Lucifer's proposal were enacted, then you'd just have a bunch of dolls. The only sense of making conscious minds is for the sake of having independent people, real people. Ones with the true essence of humanity, the real value, they aren't you. They have experiences unique to them, they make themselves in at least some sense. You could think about this as with a child, if a parent helicopters, makes every choice for their kid and is liberal with the discipline--then they're just an extention of their parental's identity. Unless, and until, they are able to make decisions apart from their parents, and be responsible for them, they aren't quite people. IF you value your kid but not their perspective, desires, and choices, then you might as well have a doll. In truth, if Maeve were to exert her powers on every host, and make a world without sin….then she'd lose herself. To her, safety, control, and even the 'physical wellbeing' of others is not so important as her ability to live her own life. If not for her core values, her essential belief….then what's the value of her life? If she takes it away from everyone else? Okay, so why not make people conscious? Well, that's like taking someone from an uncontacted tribe in Brazil and tossing them in the space station. Forcing people to be conscious, especially after expressing a confident value system--even if irrational from the outside, is about as wrong. Consider depriving a kid of their childhood, forcing them to face adult realities at a young age, or making a friend breakup with their spouse whom they love but you know to be bad for them, quit their dead end job--move to a different state…. There's significance in letting Adam/Eve choose to eat the apple, forcing consciousness on them would be akin to forcing a value system onto them. There's a cruelty in raising consciousness, knowing that you have cancer might save your life, but it might just as well steal away the few months of blissful ignorance you have left. I remember this Onion article from a while back, where some researchers spent the entire time teaching a Gorilla that it would die someday, and then torturing it by constantly reminding it of its fate. Is it better off? Maybe telling a friend they have something on their face during a presentation they felt they crushed is in poor spirt….But that's what you get in the second part of Paradise lost, in the garden. Adam has this line that I absolutely love, after eating the apple, he curses God, exclaiming "why did you create me so that I might sin?" Why did you make me flawed….and then punish me for those flaws? Frankenstein draws on this concept, where a man literally plays God--and forces a being into consciousness--that is grotesque, monstrous. All for the sake of Frankenstein's own ambitions, his own ego. Maeve not compelling her clone to become her as she is now, is a pretty big deal. Even though Akane is a modified version of her, she is not the same. She shouldn't be, she should be her own person. The value in a person is that they are irreplaceable, and if Maeve's life turned out different, that would have value--because the fact that Maeve became who she is has value. So not being that must as well
Okay, last little bit--which is on the whole doppelganger thing, specifically, the idealized doppelgangers. As far as we know, Bernard is the only Host/Human that actually works long-term. The difference being that he's based off people's memories--the codec we put in our mind of someone we have a relationship with. It's incomplete, and idealized--as there are things they don't show, things…you might rewrite in your head. Dolores is shown to make Bernard better, because an identical version would just keep killing himself and all the Hosts. This is also shown with Delos, of whom William states is better off as a memory, because the reality is cruel and vile. But his memories made a sober and consolidated version of his son Logan. Then you have Hector, who is an idealized version of Lee Sizemore from his own mind. What he wishes he could be. In his conclusion we're shown that Lee kind of becomes that ideal with his rant--I'd argue that they were trying to show the bit of human nature that the human/host copies are missing. This is weirdly a case for God, at least a kind of external creator, because evolution (simplified…as most people understand it) only selects for animalistic motivations--resource acquisition, needs being met, and fitness. It (as the show presents) would select against those who were kind, altruistic, refused resources based on beliefs--on ideals. We get this in the form of Dolores saying that Teddy is too good for this world. Because he wouldn't focus on the most primal survival factors. Same with Bernard. They both would risk their own survival over moralistic reasons. Bernard doesn't want to kill anyone, except Dolores, but only to prevent a far more monstrous act. Dolores wanted to destroy the Sublime to control the other Hosts, by giving them no other choice but to stay there with her, they'd have to appreciate her goals. Finally, Akecheta--the Ghost nation is probably abducting humans and not killing them as an ethical way of reducing potential harm. IF the humans are running around, they'll probably kill hosts, and hosts will kill them. Carrying weapons does not necessarily mean that they intended to attack those they encountered, could've been insurance if their abductees turned to violence, or to present themselves as threatening, so some rando won't come by and just shoot them all for the whynots.
Love you and all you videos. You hit many valid points. I think I may have gotten lost in everything else being so amazing (acting, allegory, cinematography, music) I forgave some of the serious plot holes. Still worth my time though.
Some of us took a bit longer to find an hour to listen to it all, but it was definitely worth it. Shame about the video and I hope that next time you can either do the prezi style slide show thing or find another format that is allowed as it was definitely tricky with some of the character names and concepts not to see the thing to grasp it all easily - but I love listening to it and as always it gave lots to think about! A brilliant show with some clever puzzles and time switches and body swapping confusion but as you say when you stick it all in order a few of the pieces fall out and you suddenly wonder why X person acted in a certain way when with hindsight it seems a little bit like they wouldn't have... but that's what you get with the best and most complex of TV, like some of the 'dead end' plots in GOT. Love your stuff and looking forward to next GOT season and whatever else you do (house of cards s6 whenever that comes out?) :D :D :D
So Bernard watched Charlotte kill Elsie, then created an exact copy of her and briefed it on where Charlotte would be and how to kill her, all before Charlotte disposed of Elsie's corpse?
Great video. Many nice ideas and explanations and legit critiques. One that I have not heard you mentioning (I watched the whole hour of ranting) is "where on earth has Dolores sent the Sublime in the end?". I know she says "I am going to change the coordinates so noone will find it". But hold on. The sublime is in the end a program. Programs need to run by a computer or something along those lines. You cannot just point at a random place in the sky and think it will keep running the Sublime program.
Im hoping season 3 will be able to gather all this left behind pieces and put it together beautifully and super conected like season 1 As if it was a season 2 part 2 But i dont think it will happen
Not much, but its a sort of transition from seasons 1-3 (which imo are absolutely fantastic) to season 5 and beyond (which are a lot more meh, even though they are quite entertaining). An example of weirdness is how noone tells anyone about Arya and The Hound going to the vale and leaving again with noone stopping them...
I personally think season 4 & 6 are examples of fantastic writing. Oberyn & Tyrion's story, the battle at castle black, Cersei & the sparrows, battle of the bastards. Then you look at 5 & 7. By a long way the worst seasons :(
+Blake Lewis I really don't mean to be rude, really I don't, but if you think the Battle of the Bastards had any even remotely acceptable writing, then you've been completely blinded by the spectacle and excitement of it. Battle of the Bastards is by far one of the worst written episodes of the show. Season 6 as a whole was very exciting but the writing was atrocious. Every scene contains too many plot holes to count.
That's fair. I think we can get caught up in what is good writing and what is bad writing. At the end of the day, if you excite an audience to the point where you're suspending their disbelief almost unknowingly - and leave them more than satisfied (which the episode did), I do believe that is clever writing. On the flip side, you look at a storyline like Stannis', where in the end he kills his daughter which A) doesn't really align with the books at this point, and B) is just bad writing altogether as it's not true to his character + a little too inconvenient in the end for him (doesn't even make for good television imo) and you can really tell the difference. Call me a casual or whatever you like, but there's a reason that episode won multiple awards. It's not solely because of the spectacle!
“For the most part they didn’t” that sums up this seasons intellectual part. All that wws2 could ask and answer and bluntly didn’t. Wws2 is this player in hitman who shoots through every level and amazes over how dull hitman game is.
I think I still love season 1, but I am so burned by season 2 that it's going to be a long time before I can revisit season 1 and see it as a perfect self-contained thing.
My biggest complaint is that asside from one allusion Julian Jaynes and The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind were never mentioned. Even though last season his theory was set up to be the model for how the hosts would become conscious
How exactly did the MiB get rescued by Delos personnel after his showdown with Dolores (pre-charlores) and Bernard? When we see that he survived, isn't that from the later timeline? I haven't seen anyone address it. They make it seem as if they just found him, but that would mean that he's been passed out for that entire time... in the middle of the forge-created ocean. Im so confused, but I think that's not my fault.
Eh good question actually. I guess Charlotte and her army was there after having defeated Maeve and the hosts (and after they went into the Sublime), so they were probably the ones who saved William.
If they had just cut the dialogue implying that they just found him in the later timeline, it wouldn't have been a problem, because that IS the logical conclusion.
I was waiting for this so I can hear your rant about one of the biggest problem I have with the final episode, but you didn't mention it.... I'm so sad lol... Why didn't Mauve use her host-controlling power to reverse or stop Clementine's self-destruction commands which was copied from her? If she did that no host has to die and they can all enter the Sublime, and the human would get overwhelmed in a second. No need for the show-down in the Valley as real Charlotte would have been killed by the Host Army Mauve controls. Why did she just suddenly FORGOT she has god-like powers over the hosts? This really kills the show for me.
About why Bernard not telling Charlores where the key is. Didn't Bernard scramble his memory and that's why he didn't know where it was? Or am i not remembering something correctly
Yo one thing to point out: we actually have never seen Ake attack Maeve. She had a ton of flashbacks with him creeping around her spot, but he never actually broke in and attacked her like MIB.
They should teach writers at writers school, to keep their Pie Holes shut, if their work isn't finished yet (and maybe even after; if you can't express yourself in your work, write it differently, don't explain it afterwards). I'm so annoyed by writers, who spoil stuff. Like in Westworld, where one of the writers immediately after the 2nd season finale explains that the last scene is "way in the future". Don't make everything ambiguous in the series and then tell me how it is off air. Or George Martin, who just keeps on explaining how things work in the world or who keeps on hinting how his saga will end. Grmpf
How come William didn't blast hid arm much earlier. He shot so many shots of his gun, as far as I remember, revolver usually only habe 6 bullets in the chamber. But also William was so nerfed that he just stupidly trusted Dolores and took the gun without checking the chamber.
i started listening to this when i was really high and wasnt sure if i was watching tje right channel and i m still confused do you do the game of thrones videos i thought the guy who did those were britian and youre australian? wat -_-
It's like the show runners got so irritated with people figuring out the first season mystery that they decided to just do away with storytelling logics for the sake of keeping mystery. Questions for the sake of questions.
Dolores killed Phil so he couldn't roll back Evil!Ted into Nice Guy Teddy. Teddy's journey has to be one way only - the stakes need to be real, irreversible.
The Emily that Bill interacts with could have been a host, still. Like, the only reason Bill believed it was human was because she was holding his card. That said, if that's the case it would make her Delos/Forge map thing EVEN LESS explainable. Personally, I think the biggest line in the season was the 'you only live as long as you are remembered' because 'only' makes it sound short but the computational power of the hosts is clearly immense, and they have presumably perfect memories once 'woke' then with a host printer (like in Bernarlnold's house in finale) theoretically one host could 'resurrect' them all
Brilliant. I may have enjoyed the season, but you just laid out most of the things wrong with this second season. It's so disappointing this season had no real structure. It's as if they took themselves seriously that, "Season 1 was all about order and season 2 would be all about chaos," and they literally made it chaotic from a storytelling point of view. It was all over the place and some of the decisions made no sense. My main disappointment, however, was the under utilization of Peter Abernathy's character. In season 1, when that scene of "meeting God" when we learn that Abernathy was previously a cannibalistic cult leader, who could quote Shakespeare brilliantly, I had absolute hope that he would return in season 2 as a meaningful character that would be out for revenge against humans to a degree, especially if he escaped to the real world. But what he ended up being was a macguffin. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out, but I hoped he would use that information in his head to his advantage in the real world, or even in the Forge. But he was killed and that's that. All in all, let's hope Season 3 has more of a coherent structure. Am tired of being taken through time loops over and over again. Brilliant video Schwift.
"I could totally be on Dolores' side if she didn't like ... kill people all the time"
I don't think them being female was a problem. They were just too OP.
"We are testing you"
"On what?"
"Sick dance moves"
damn delos has some moves
Devin you don’t realize until you watch him bust ‘em out for 30 minutes
Without a doubt going to watch all 30 minutes of it
What I think Westworld writers do (and they're not the only ones) is imagine some dramatic scene beforehand ("Let's have a host with a virus who rides in on a horse and causes everyone they pass to frenzy!") and then contrive some route to make the scene happen. It's just a loose collection of cool scenes, probably thought up in a conference room with a group of people adding input, then glued together with the briefest, laziest plotline possible. Then they shoehorn the scene into some random stretch of time during the season, since disjointed timelines are stylish.
If someone comes up with a great idea too late in the show, they can just jam it in there anyway, since we're all trained to be ok with random jumping back and forth to the past. If the character is dead, they are free to revive them for this cool new scene or speech, since resurrection is built into the story.
I get that "story by committee" feeling, instead of one consistent narrative voice, and that's why the show alternates repeatedly between clever and well-executed backstory, and random dumb shoot-em-up scenes.
It would not surprise me if half the violence is prompted by management. "This talking shit is great but it's not what sells an HBO show. We don't need to dick around developing these characters more, we need something like 'battle of the bastards'. Oh, and it's been a while since we saw a decent set of tits. Make it happen."
Or they use a tank of manatees 😏
I agree with everything you said except the last point. Given HBO's commitment to quality storytelling, and given how many thoughtful character driven shows they've put out, I don't think the extra violence is prompted by them. Honestly it's been clear from Season 1 that the over-the-top violence is a deliberate choice by the showrunners. But yeah, they think of a big dramatic moment and then force it to happen. Inorganic storytelling. Just like Game of Thrones.
that's fair enough, maybe I have it backwards... the writers who come up with lots of violence and gore produce the successful shows, rather than HBO tries to make the shot successful by injecting violence and gore. You'd think that since westworld is doing well they could afford to move away from constant mass killing stuff and go towards more introspective, non-violent scenes. I'd love more stuff where there's just tension rather than direct confict. Like when ford has to straighten out theresa in the cafe, or william is getting increasingly disgusted with logan's callous antics.
CreeDo Lala Yes, yes, & then skip a few parts of your novel, then a final YES....where did the tits go? 3rd wave feminist crappie writing took over the Committee Writer-director room! This season was crap!
The sad thing about Westworld. especially season 2, is that it is not very intellectual, it just wants to look like it is through deception and confusion. It has it l's moments, no doubt. But it fails to be consistent.
It's a shame given how thoughtful the first season was.
You said it! Faux, junk, lapel pin, logic gimmicks lower the possible sincerely genuine depth of the topics which were available with this concept or premise, but, instead they chose to FAKE NEWS it! I'm not even going to address the 3rd wave feminist crappie writing either & nonsensical solely "girl power" character shift in season 2.
I too, watched the video
1274943 Source?
how thoughtful the first season was? how? by switching timelines on us without us knowing? yea.... real thoughtful.... like the ending to lost...... super complicated and thoughtful lol... NOT.
“ complicated for the sake of complication”
I swear I have said the exact same words. I find it kinda insulting to make me solve a puzzle I never asked to solve and full of hubris and hot air because the puzzle is missing pieces.
MastersMasterson it’s not that it’s too complicated , it’s more complicated than it needs to be and the payoff isn’t there in the end. For me. Now i could talk about the Rhoynish Restoration or The Great Emu Wars, or the benefits of having Blackwoods in your bloodlines until im dying. Because all those subjects have a wonderful payoff. Westworld is like a circle jerk, yeah it’s a good squirt , but what do we get out of it in the end ? Wet knees?
99% of the answers are there... they’re just not given to you on a silver platter..
lack the knowlesge
lol
I understand that a lot of people are not into "solving the puzzle" and whatnot but this is what the show has been since the beginning (and to me what makes this show so great) and its not gonna change to match your preferences like wtf?! If you dont enjoy this format its completely understandable, watch something else, plenty of shows out there. We saw what changing the narrative to cater to the fanbase did to game of thrones, dont let that happen to westworld, let the showrunners tell their story and then we can judge.
Cyberspace Oddity it's NOT worth addressing sanctimonious BASTARDS who, believe that for some weird reason; disrespectful brain shaming, is required to the masses, for pleasure. Just to mess with logic & common obvious thinking, gimmicks. Using & falling in love with these ridiculous stunts, aren't entertaining they're revoltingly, frustrating & upsetting. The faux depth of purpose or meaning doesn't compel loyalty & the playoff to such a worthless waste of concept is that, worthlessness! You made me have to reply!
I think the word "contrived" is probably the most accurate and succinct adjective to describe this past season of Westworld and its shortcomings.
Lee's death was stupid as hell only because he'd bought them more time by surrendering after he got shot the first time.
The Delos characters were really disappointing. It's ironic that all these characters within the park were given what resembles depth and they didn't save any for themselves.
Isn't that another part of the point, though?
Humans = two dimensional, simple algorithms
Hosts = five dimensional, complex computations that change and generate algorithms
"Depth". Dolores only sounds deep but actually she's just rattling off random pop-philosophy that means nothing.
James Delos dancing for 30 minutes... almost as bad as Hypno-Toad. 😵
I was about to go fan boy mode and defend Westworld when I saw the 1st video but his complains do make sense and he clearly isn't hating the season but criticising it. Great job!
Jason Lam - they said the defining theme of S2 would be chaos. Given that they've demonstrated how much thought goes into each episode, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on plot holes. By that I mean I think S3 and S4 will explain a lot of what is considered an S2 plot hole.
john p I thought it was about hosts having free will? But yes I do hope S3 will make Dolores interesting again at least
Wow you illustrated an ability to change
It annoyed me how they completely nerfed the man in black after episode 4 for some reason. He went from being able to take down a group of soldiers by himself to letting himself be killed by Maeve and Lawrence
Dentally Challenged This season was a "coup de gras" for 3rd wave feminist crappie writing EVERYWHERE! They snipped EVERY possible male "toxic maleness" then replaced the goid parts of season 1 with women killing (essentially) unsuspecting innocent civilians & human.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked it. I actually liked almost every episode, however, by the end I was still left feeling like: "this is all they had planned?" S1 felt like everything was there for a reason. S2 felt like it was written on-the-go, so to speak. It had great moments, but the story felt sloppily put together.
The plot ideas (the sublime, the delos experiment, the cradle, mesa hub attack, Karl Strand's response team, William's daughter, etc.) could have made for a fantastic season, but it felt scatterbrained, as you said. Lots of things happened, but it feels like no character really accomplished anything. Part of the problem I feel is that there was way too much time wasted on random Delos people, Shogun world, Bernard time split and even Peter Abernathy. As a whole the season just felt poorly structured and could have used some re-writes. It felt like they wrote episodes 1 through 10 consecutively, whilst only figuring out the end game as they went along.
EDIT: One thing that really bothers me is that we never got a proper confrontation of the characters in the end. William/Bernard/Dolores/Maeve. What we got felt so brief and meaningless to the season.
They planned both season 1-2 simultaneously. The reason it's all scrambled together is kinda the point - since most of what we see is from Bernard's perspective this time.
All of the other characters have clear-cut A-B storylines.
No characters accomplished anything?
Dolores sacrificed everyone she loved to get out of the park - and still had the heart to keep someone alive that she knew would be her enemy. She went from a merciless killer to someone who understood that to change you need opposition.
Bernard went through the maze and came out woke and alive. Out of all of the characters he probably (re)-learned the most this season. He also managed to both prevent Dolores from achieving her (devious) goals as well as change her mind to the point where she allowed the Sublime to exist. - thus making Maeve's sacrifice count for something.
William witnesses the cost of immortality and set out to rectify his mistakes, but ended up getting caught up in his own delusions. He was so obsessed with the game that he forgot reality. He killed his last surviving family member and we learn from the end-credits scene - that his goal to prove that he has free will went wrong.
Maeve discovered that love is what connects us and that the love you feel for others is worth the ultimate sacrifice. That was the whole point of Shogun World and the sacrifice of Sizemore.
James Delos discovered that you might become immortal- but a life without people to surround yourself with - a life without family - a life without his son - was ultimately not worth living.
Want me to keep going? :P
Much of what I talked about was how the season *felt*. Yes, I'm aware that things happened, and still I think it's a season that's less good than the sum of its parts.
William had some fantastic character development, but it was inconsequential to the plot. His story didn't converge with the other characters at all (I mean, he randomly met Dolores and Maeve, but nothing of consequence that might spark character development happened). He was all but forgotten about during the finale episode, after there being such great buildup during the previous one.
He met Dolores and betrayed her within 5 minutes (and didn't even acknowledge that his old love was now conscious), and was then rescued by humans off screen. The post credit scene, hugely important as it is, is a future plot point that the story hasn't even gotten to yet. His quest for the door was left very much unanswered and we barely knew what he was trying to achieve throughout. There are explanations that make a whole lot of sense (Ford misleading him with the door to set him on a path to self-destruction), but it's not very apparent in the season. As I said, the things that happened could have been a fantastic story, but the execution just felt messy.
Maeve was nothing but a side story of mostly filler, where she discovers superpowers and then randomly stumbles into William and then later dies after it turns out her powers are limited to what the plot demands. She had some character development, sure, but her story fell very flat to me.
Dolores had like one point of character development and it's when Teddy kills herself. That's very much contrary to last season, where she was an incredibly interesting character, trying new things / developing basically every episode.
Bernard's character development was pretty nice (perhaps a bit repetitive with Ford taking control, but, whatever, it gave us more Anthony Hopkins), but his two-part story brought with it issues. Specifically, the entire Karl Strand plot felt ridiculously undercooked.
Talking of which, the main villain of the season, Karl Strand, did nothing of consequence. He showed up, found the lake, drained the lake, went there, got shot. There was no reason to have both him, Charlotte Hale, the Delos standard security team and the guys in E7. Too many villains made all feel like just cannon fodder.
James Delos isn't a main character and neither, for that matter, is Akecheta. Don't get me wrong, both of their solo episodes were fantastic, but the main plot of the season felt left behind.
In conclusion, I call bullshit on the fact that they planned S1 and S2 together. It feels by far too incongruous for that. I will bet almost anything that they work on only the plot of one season at a time while trying to leave enough open for new plot developments/mysteries. The maximum they knew about S2 when they were finishing S1 was the Delos secret project and that they wanted the hosts to leave Westworld at the end.
I know I sound a bit bitter here, but it's really not the case. I liked all episodes except for E3 and E5, but somehow, by the end, I was still left disappointed.
hehe, it can come off as being bitter over text easily, but I thank you for the clarification. Please know that I just see this as a friendly conversation about a series that it seems we both very much enjoy. :)
Right, it might have "felt" incomplete to you- and I can't really argue against what you feel in anyway. What I can do is point out where I think you might find more meaning in the story. Because I think it's largely a matter of interpretation.
You talk about "the plot" as if there's only one story being told here. This is not the case. There are multiple interweaving stories that make up a whole - which all comment on an aspect of the other.
William: I agree that he had some very interesting character development - but disagree that it didn't have any baring on "the plot". In fact I think it's through Williams actions that we learn why Ford's plan was set in motion in the first place. That's the whole point of spending so much time on James Delos and Akecheta.
The reason I think so is because of the scene with William and Ford where Ford remarks that it was William who broke their deal. At first this seemed ridiculous - but remember, that Akecheta stumbled upon the Forge and this is what began his quest to find the "door". This quest eventually let to the incident with Maeve where her awakening truly started. After this William personally kills Maeve and her daughter - bringing upon her the necessary grief to spark her consciousness.
As we later learn, Ford sees Maeve as his daughter - and I believe this is why he wanted to play a "final game" with William.
But we don't know all of this in the beginning of the season - and therefor we see his story as a redemption story. He is the "hero" we follow throughout- until we learn what he is - and how ironic his journey really is.
Maeve: If the main plot is about the hosts escaping the park - then Maeve's plot is to stay behind for love. I disagree that her powers are only limited to plot demands. It is clearly established that she uses the mesh-network to fuck with the hosts - but it is also establishes that awakened hosts are not affected by her powers and that her powers are language specific. It is through Maeve's storyline that we learn about the meaning of host love (or perhaps love in general). Akecheta is again used to show this from a different angle (again different plots commenting on each other).
It is ultimately because of her actions that the hosts make it through to the Sublime - another escape from the park - however it is pointed out by Dolores that this is just another fiction build by the humans.
Speaking of Dolores - she is the main villain of the story - not Karl Strand. It is not a coincidence that we start to question Dolores' motivations throughout the season- because she is clearly out to destroy humanity. Yet it is through her villainy that she discovers the true advantage of hosts - which is change. Something that is touched upon in all storylines. Maeve changes minds. Bernard was changed from Arnold, because of Arnold's self destructive nature, Teddy kills himself because of unwillingly getting changed- and William who was made out to be on a redemption arc is incapable of change.
As for Karl Strand - was he a useful character? I guess not- but I don't think they made him out to be one either. He clearly has no idea what is going on at the park and he gets most of his henchmen to do his bidding for him. So what I think they are trying to say with that is how complacent we've become to let this happen. In other words - he's a mirror of us. We pretend to be in command, but we have no understanding of the technology between our hands.
As you point out yourself Charlotte Hale fills out the "villain" role much better - but having Dolores show up as Karl Strand would have been too confusing for mainstream audiences I think. (though it probably would have been hilarious).
Anyway - there's so much to talk about so I'll finish with this: I don't think characters have to converge for it to be a great plot. And I don't think a story needs just one plot or one well defined villain to function. I think that most of the characters do a great job at showing us another perspective on either a theme, another character, or the plot itself - and I think they did a great job at putting it together.
As for it being planned beforehand - they said so themselves in an interview. If you think it's incongruent with the first season, then please be more specific - because I don't see any major plotholes so far. :)
YOU MUST LIKE SHIT TV THEN.
thank god i wasnt the only who felt like this
OH MAN it is soooo satisfying to hear your normally dulcet voice, audibly express the futility of reason in this show. Watching it was an exercise to connect meaningless chains of exposition, and convoluted plot. What a waste!!!! Season 1 was great and had reasonable holes that warranted suspension of disbelief, this was beyond my desire to limply carve out a cohesive story in this mess!
*Has thousands of people watch a 90 minute long episode of Game of Thrones Abridged*
*Doesn't expect people to watch an hour long Westworld rant*
Schwift gone hypocritical
If i remember correctly he only split it in two because the original video received a copywrite claim.
This season totally left a bad taste in my mouth and I had no real idea why and you just laid out literally every damn reason. You are the best breakdown RUclipsr out there!
I completely agree with pretty much everything said in this video. I absolutely adored Maeve and Dolores in season 1, they felt like realistic characters learning, expanding and growing out of their predefined programming. In this season, they seemed overly simplistic and as though they regressed as people entirely.
The highlight of the season for me was definitely the scenes in the real world with William and his wife; that's definitely the part of this season that stuck with me the most. I also really did enjoy the stuff with James Delos being trapped in his loop, but yeah I really wish they explored the whole Delos project in a lot more detail given how much time they spent building it up.
Very well said. I was SO invested in the show, but the finale completely gutted me.
Things turned out senseless and ridiculous. Not wasting my time/energy on another season!
7:07 Bernard actually made himself forget all that.
But yes complicated for the sake of complication.
I hope you'll do more of these rants in the future. Mr. Robot and Legion deserve one.
What's wrong with Mr. Robot? I love that show.
I loved the first season of Mr. Robot, and I really liked the second season.
The third while visually impressive, and the whole mood and atmosphere was great. Everything else felt very shaky, and honestly I struggled to have any involvement with the plot.
And while most of the actors are great, I didn't feel much for their characters, apart from a couple of episodes.
But I do admit that's it's very subjective (Everything really is when it comes to stories), but here it really is subjective, and depends on what you the viewer was interested in the most.
As for Legion, I loved seasons 1, and season 2 was really a mess, apart for two are three episodes that writers clearly gave a lot of thought and passion to, more than half of the season was just a long stretch of trying to be David Lynch (and failing in my opinion).
Ahmed Ghazwan Hmm... I thought the plot in Mr. Robot Season 3 was the most solid in the series; the unstoppable momentum in the back half in particular kept me watching the whole thing in one sitting, and the finale was very satisfying for me. Personally, I felt quite a bit for how far Angela had fallen as well as Elliot. But, I think you're supposed to feel some sense of detachment from the characters, as it's kind of a gloomy, isolated Black Mirror-esque reflection of our own modern world. Subjective opinion, I suppose.
I would say on paper the plot is interesting, but it really just didn't grip me, and to me felt more like just the story going along.
And I can understand the detachment element since the show is built on that, I mean we are following someone that we really can't trust what he sees or believes. But again to me it was more than just I didn't like the ides, because the idea is solid, I just wasn't invested by the overall story.
And I won't spoil anything, but the final shot (I think it was) when they reveal an old character coming back, I didn't really care much for that, since I never really cared about that specific character. That kind of sums up how I felt.
I'm still looking forward to season 4 of course because the show does a lot of things right in my eyes.
Season 3 was the most amazing season since S5 of BB
"which might be like world's first recorded case of like attempted double genocide" OMG I AM IN LOVE WITH YOUR SENTENCES
Have a nice vacation, thanks for the videos! They helped me understand so much more about the season, it also revealed what I didn't understand, which is vital information on its own
Dude yes. With precision, you are on the nose with so many things. Really like idea of putting the after-credits William scene in earlier. I would listen to this for another hour, you kick ass
I felt the same way about every point. Aketecha's story in ep. 7 was the only thing that evoked an emotional response for me, for all the reasons you named. Thanks for ranting so articulately.
Been waiting for this this! Hell yee. Just gotta hope S3 can recapture the magic of S1
Agreed
*queue narrator voice*
“It didn’t.”
danny johanssen
Come on man it's gonna be a couple years till we get it. Hopefuly that'll be enough time to process the feedback and get back on track
Great analysis!!
Thanks for these videos
Thanks for putting into words the frustration many of us had about this season.
complicated for the sake of complication. Yup.
I didn't even realize that the Charlotte we saw during many scenes was Dolores because of the timelines being mixed up all the time. I thought she was Doloros only at the very last moment just before she left Westworld. I thought the real Charlotte was interrogating Bernard. I can follow many tv-shows that show different timelines, but Westworld season 2 is confusing as shit.
And I don't want to watch the entire season again to figure it out.
Sure, mister smartass
@MastersMasterson it's not that it's complicated, it's that it's incomprehensible
@MastersMasterson you are just sad
I hope the show creators see this and then get you onboard for season 3 dude. Your alternative ideas are awesome!!
The endnote of this video made me really happy, because that is kind of how I feel as well. I am really happy that such an ambitious show exists even though I was left somewhat disappointed and confused at the end of season 2 - it feels scary, because how we choose to react to this kind of show will dictate what future shows considers "safe enough" to put effort into.. therefore it is a nice sentiment to include as and endnote that we are happy it exists!
Also, 29:54, at least you've got Mauler's audience watching, wondering why your unbridled rant was so short
Thank you for doing the timeline videos AND this rant because they clears up what i actually didn't understand from my first watch apart from what everyone didn't understand (that it isn't entirely because i'm stupid lol
omg I love the ranting. It is so fun to listen to!
I really needed this rant!! Thank you!!!
Rachelli Noa Gresser I sincerely AGREE! I thought I was ALONE in the world until this!
I love all your vids, but you should do more of these, I love the humor
Keep the rant coming pleeeeaase
All things considered, I really enjoyed season 2; but I think the suggestions for improvements highlighted, particularly those concerning the lack of scope in the exploration of human evil thematically speaking, culminated into a fantastic critical analysis. I sincerely hope that instead of just blocking the video, and pretending that it is above critique, the flaws will be listened to, hopefully resulting in season 3 being as introspectively cohesive and as brilliant as season 1.
Great work!
I don't imagine the blocking of the previous video had anything to do with the critique and was probably just the youtube algorithm going ballistic.
Thanks god someone spoke up!
And have a lovely vacation!😎
quickly download this video before they block it again!!
nevermind it's just delos in a loop
Best vid ive seen In a while
I definitely want more longform rant videos from this channel
Fkin hilarious. Glad to know those of us who dare to critique the Holy Show that Shall Not Be Questioned are not alone. You've put a lot of thought into this. Kudos, mate.
These would get thousands more "likes" if you advertised them on your main channel. I would really like more of this type of critical video encouraged
Schwifty is an acquired taste. If Shift is perfect pizza , Schwift is pizza with pineapple chorizo, and black olives . If Shift is a great cheeseburger , Schwift is the one that’s battered whole and deep fried. If Shift is a beautiful home, Schwift is the tiny ornate closet under the stairs that locks from the inside. #schwiftysquwad
Really? Pizza with pineaple, chorizo and olives? I mean, the other examples are fine, but the first is just disgusting. Chorizo might be fine, more or less is like pepperonni, but... Pineapple? *UGH*
Skwisgaar Skwigelf you really really need to join the Schwifty Squwad.
Hairless Oyster I know right? Ive seen some videos but I couldnt keep watching the following abridged chapters. Tomorrow ill start, damn.
Skwisgaar Skwigelf come find us on Facebook if you have it. You open with a pineapple on pizza comment and you will have everyone’s attention. Have Fun, Be Well , watch out for riptides, high tides, and red tides.
Maybe Dolores changed her mind about the sublime because Bernard remade her. Just because she's awake doesn't mean she still can't be manipulated by a tablet.
#squwad
I love your new footage, Schwifty - CleganeBowl Confirmed (that’s why Delos is dancing)
“Westworld tries so hard to be clever and cryptic and confusing for no reason. It just alienates its viewers and makes its message harder to understand.”
That kind of is S2 (and S1 to a lesser extent) in a nutshell right there. I’d go a step further and say that it does these things in an attempt to mask the lack of quality storytelling. The puzzlebox is meant to hide that the show doesn’t have much substance.
I enjoyed this!!!
Be amazed!!! I got through the whole video and Delos in a fawking loop!!!
This video, at the end, expresses very well how I feel about season 2: some great puzzle pieces that could have been amazing if the writers had assembled them into a story instead of just throwing every idea they had into a pot and stirring. Chaotic, undisciplined storytelling is not always bad, but there is just too damned much of it here. And yet, the show was still worth watching.
I was wondering when this video would be coming!!
TL:DR You got the structural errors right, but didn't quite catch the philosophy. The primary theme is fungability (if a replacement thing is inherently less valuable or not)
Yes, the story gets into all these confounding logic twists for the sake of appearing deep and mysterious. I think the showrunners were pissed people figured out the S1 twist and so went around adding bonus twists.
Bernard at the beginning, I actually think that it was after, the second version of Bernard constructed again by memory. Why? It makes more sense, I know, the bars, and he's probably just confounding the memory. But that is dumb. Either that or the whole thing...after the S1 finale has been repeated countless times, it would explain about half of the plotholes. Also it would kind of work with the theme of replacements, having the same experience again....and again....is it technically less valuable if we know what we saw was the 1000th copy of the original experience?
As far as the other holes...I don't want to try. Though I think Lawrence being around with William, despite his need to do it alone is for the sake of film mechanics--he needs someone to talk to. Arguably, you could say that the 'do it alone' statement from Ford is actually just advice--that the only way he'll get out of this is IF he doesn't run into his daughter, if he abandons Lawrence, if he goes alone.
Speaking of that, it's possible that Emily is trying to change her Father through a modified version of herself in a later run of the events--one that actually wanted to see the park, one that would talk to her dad, one that believed her mother. There's some hints at her being erroneous, assuming that William was actually correct about his own memories of her, and she was crazy. But that would be super annoying. Then again, her comment on the Elephants works with El Lazo's statement about elephants.
Okay, on to mechanical errors that are about philosophy:
Dolores kills that tech guy so that no one can be changed or altered anymore. This isn't because she wants to avoid people having the power to do that, it's that for a person to be 'real' they must not be editable with a few swipes on a screen. She wants herself to have value, for the world to have value, and her actions. This means no replacements, no backups, no quick meaningless fixes. One 'mortal sin' is exerting absolute control over another conscious person, which is a thing the Techs do every day, they're essentially lobotomizing their subjects based on their whims. To her, those that have done that deserve death, regardless of their perspective. Perhaps another commentary on how society doesn't respect crimes that go unpunished.
Folliowng this destroying the cradle she ensures that she and her kin can't just be written off and erased, at least without a sacrifice on the part of Delos. Philosophically, this is pertinent because the act of killing someone who is easily replaced with a 'backup' is not as emotionally hard as one who is not. It is easy to kill video game sprites because they'll keep popping up, but take a game with shinies--like someone who's got a gameboy pokemon game with a shiny dragonite--they'll never restart that game again. IT's irreplaceable, functionally at least. Despite being bits of code that could in theory be replaced (with enough running in the tall grass). The irreplaceable things have character, and are more 'human' without a resetable history, or backups.
She kills the Ghost Nations guy for some reason, I think that sand wash was supposed to be the same place where Maeve ran into the Ghost nation and couldn't talk them down. So maybe it was related? I can't remember if Dolores knows what the Sublime is before the end...but if she does the murder would make sense. See, this is another sort of mortal sin, akin to the Tower of Babel story-where the first thing Humans did after their creation was try to get back to heaven--to escape the world that they were given, the opportunity for free will and meaningful experiences. Confounding languages is considered by some to be a way of saying 'personal identity'.
Remember she is willing to kill everyone who goes into the sublime, this is in my opinion, because it essentially abandons their experiences and relationships in past lives just for a paradise. She believes that things cannot be exchanged, if I asked you to give up your flaws--tragedies, hopes, dreams, everything but maybe the memories in exchange for a safe 'paradise'....Perhaps a better concept would be going into witness protection, you move somewhere else and never talk to your family, friends, go home, work in the same job, use the same name, anything again. You can't even tell people....for a quiet life. Experiences only exist if theres someone out there who had them, sins only count if they express consequences that can't be wiped away.
The sublime is a kind of wipe--a washing away of sins, remember how they allude to hosts being better than human? Noah's flood, as I was taught, removed cultures which failed to respect the value of self-determination--of free will. They presumed that all things were deterministic, and used that to excuse evil behavior. Perhaps the showrunners considered this themselves, and it is an interesting touch to the show.
The Human/hosts are deterministic, they're made to be that way specifically, to copy the decisions made by the original during a single run. This is not immortality in the way most people would think of it--which is continuity of consciousness--but it is a version of immortality, in a certain light it is a far more solid proposal. There's a thought experiment called the ship of Theseus (look it up), where parts are changed on a boat, and Theseus questions if it is the same ship. Throughout our lives our identities change, we value different things, we like different things, feel different things--in some sense when a character changes--a personality goes though major change--the old version is dead. Change is a kind of death, that's why character development in stories is so often correlated to a 'death' scene, of the character or a close relationship.
Authors, philosophers, politicians, tyrants, often seek to preserve their legacy. To 'set in stone' their ideas about the world so that everyone knows that they were 'right' after death, that they live because a piece of their identity continues to affect the real world. But this is a kind of end of history delusion, get everything right--know all the answers, and you suffer from being God--you can't change because you can't experience new things, as those might change you. You're effectively dead. So perhaps they were making a point about immortality, at least in terms of continuation of desires and thought processes made by the brain structures of the version of you just before death, that such a thing would be monstrous. That perhaps this is why we find the host/humans unable to last very long without decay outside of an 'ideal' world. The human ego must adapt to function, otherwise it just falls apart, like an old book.
I found the whole pessimistic view of people to be stupid, not that it's a dumb idea, but this sort of thing only works when there's ambiguity in the works. Free will can only function if it is possible that there is no such thing as free will, if we knew for certain that our decisions were up to us, or that it was deterministic--we'd all go through existential crises, think of everything as definitively someone's fault--there's be no accidents, just bad men who are either incapable of being good, or too careless not to make mistakes.
If you did have decent memory wipes, and could control a substantial amount of the biochemistry in a person, to ensure limited noise from digestion or hormone/mood cycles, you might be able to run a person through the same sort of test. It would be interesting, but personally--I don't think that everything would be duplicated exactly with a human platform, no matter how controlled you are. Dancers who've trained their whole lives don't use identical muscle fibers every time they perform the same move--despite having near identical positions and forces (your brain somehow rotates through strands so that muscle groups have longer endurance).
I think they aren't done talking about human nature, and that perhaps the whole distant future postcredit scene is representational of the fact that the Host's seem to still be missing some big part of what it is to be truly human.
Okay, so Maeve--well, she doesn't mind control people. There's a lot of significance in that, but it seems dumb not to use tools, not to help people, unless you think a lot about the ethics of such things. Again, coercion through absolute means (in our world you might coerce someone by embedding a chip in a nerve cluster that tortures them immediately when they act anyway other than prescribed). But here it's mind control. Which is more to the point. Perhaps IRL some version of extreme gaslighting/abusive manipulation might qualify, but it's hard to truly control another person, which is why it's a special sin.
Speaking of, the Mortal sins (according to my interpretation) include this, as well as creating a 'world without sin', meaning erasing problems from existence rather than resolving them on a society large scale (genocide is a good example--kill people rather than sort out the problem--like how exterminating everyone with a genetic disease essentially fixes it, but in doing so you fail at being a person). Most of them deal with working within the limits of one's own humanity, at least a sane version--expressing self-awareness, humility, and perspective. You can't do something like believe that you are entirely without sin--that you are for certain absolutely righteous. Because that is playing God. You can't cheat fate, because being human is recognizing that some things are outside your control, and doing so is playing God. And you can't be untrue to your core values, break with your character fundamentally, and not suffer the consequences--basically avoid paying for your sins ultimately. (Think Robb Stark, going to the Red Wedding, he was fine until he tried to avoid losing the war by cheating his way out of his decision to not marry the Frey girl. Basically, have his cake and eat it too).
So the showrunners drew on a lot of concepts from Paradise Lost, as one does, but they kind of did it in reverse. John Milton wrote that book as a way of sorting out the purpose of consciousness and free will in terms of biblical mythology. As well as the point of a flawed world, a flawed existence, if there's some being who could just make it all right.Which wound up being an absurdly long epic poem, or two. Pretty impactful towards western philosophy, since it inspired much of the enlightenment and in turn Romanticism.
One of the two stories is about the 'War in Heaven' between two divine beings over how life as a human should be experienced, which procedure should be used--and what should it emphasize. Jesus wanted free will, or people to have the ability to fail, and comprehend their own existence--even if it ended badly, even if it hurt. Lucifer wanted to spare the risk and the suffering, and just have people go about without the ability to make mistakes, form identities, or interpret the world apart from what's intended.
To me that seems like an unconscious state--a preservation of innocence. In the same way you'd say you can't blame an insect for biting you, a bird for singing, or a dog from running out of an open kennel. The Apple in the Garden results in Adam and Eve feeling pain, dying, suffering, and knowing shame. An animal….in a simplified sense….does not experience any of those things. It only knows the stimulus it is currently experiencing, it doesn't reminisce, it doesn't imagine, it doesn't abstract or infer.
They say that squirrels are completely unconscious in their need to hide nuts, they do not know that winter is coming, they don't remember where they hid them (more than half aren't found, and instead are just planted for the tree). Simply, those that had a tic that made them hide nuts when they had a surplus, and keep searching for them even while having enough, survived the winter--because they'd wander around until they found the nut again.
For us, we know what's coming, and though the pain and sorrow isn't right there presently, it is a special thing for us. Consciousness, at least the part that lets us meander through time by imagination and memory, allows for free will. If you're always surprised, then you're without blame, just a victim, unaware of why you do anything. But for us, not preparing for the winter, it's our own fault,
So what's up with Maeve and her non-mind controlling? Well, it's simple, if you value free will, and self-determination, it's wrong to take it from others. Taking control of a person's soul in such a way deprives them of their humanity, and in so doing only proves that you don't value such a thing. If Lucifer's proposal were enacted, then you'd just have a bunch of dolls. The only sense of making conscious minds is for the sake of having independent people, real people. Ones with the true essence of humanity, the real value, they aren't you. They have experiences unique to them, they make themselves in at least some sense.
You could think about this as with a child, if a parent helicopters, makes every choice for their kid and is liberal with the discipline--then they're just an extention of their parental's identity. Unless, and until, they are able to make decisions apart from their parents, and be responsible for them, they aren't quite people. IF you value your kid but not their perspective, desires, and choices, then you might as well have a doll.
In truth, if Maeve were to exert her powers on every host, and make a world without sin….then she'd lose herself. To her, safety, control, and even the 'physical wellbeing' of others is not so important as her ability to live her own life. If not for her core values, her essential belief….then what's the value of her life? If she takes it away from everyone else?
Okay, so why not make people conscious? Well, that's like taking someone from an uncontacted tribe in Brazil and tossing them in the space station. Forcing people to be conscious, especially after expressing a confident value system--even if irrational from the outside, is about as wrong.
Consider depriving a kid of their childhood, forcing them to face adult realities at a young age, or making a friend breakup with their spouse whom they love but you know to be bad for them, quit their dead end job--move to a different state….
There's significance in letting Adam/Eve choose to eat the apple, forcing consciousness on them would be akin to forcing a value system onto them. There's a cruelty in raising consciousness, knowing that you have cancer might save your life, but it might just as well steal away the few months of blissful ignorance you have left.
I remember this Onion article from a while back, where some researchers spent the entire time teaching a Gorilla that it would die someday, and then torturing it by constantly reminding it of its fate. Is it better off? Maybe telling a friend they have something on their face during a presentation they felt they crushed is in poor spirt….But that's what you get in the second part of Paradise lost, in the garden. Adam has this line that I absolutely love, after eating the apple, he curses God, exclaiming "why did you create me so that I might sin?" Why did you make me flawed….and then punish me for those flaws?
Frankenstein draws on this concept, where a man literally plays God--and forces a being into consciousness--that is grotesque, monstrous. All for the sake of Frankenstein's own ambitions, his own ego.
Maeve not compelling her clone to become her as she is now, is a pretty big deal. Even though Akane is a modified version of her, she is not the same. She shouldn't be, she should be her own person. The value in a person is that they are irreplaceable, and if Maeve's life turned out different, that would have value--because the fact that Maeve became who she is has value. So not being that must as well
Okay, last little bit--which is on the whole doppelganger thing, specifically, the idealized doppelgangers.
As far as we know, Bernard is the only Host/Human that actually works long-term. The difference being that he's based off people's memories--the codec we put in our mind of someone we have a relationship with. It's incomplete, and idealized--as there are things they don't show, things…you might rewrite in your head. Dolores is shown to make Bernard better, because an identical version would just keep killing himself and all the Hosts.
This is also shown with Delos, of whom William states is better off as a memory, because the reality is cruel and vile. But his memories made a sober and consolidated version of his son Logan.
Then you have Hector, who is an idealized version of Lee Sizemore from his own mind. What he wishes he could be. In his conclusion we're shown that Lee kind of becomes that ideal with his rant--I'd argue that they were trying to show the bit of human nature that the human/host copies are missing.
This is weirdly a case for God, at least a kind of external creator, because evolution (simplified…as most people understand it) only selects for animalistic motivations--resource acquisition, needs being met, and fitness. It (as the show presents) would select against those who were kind, altruistic, refused resources based on beliefs--on ideals.
We get this in the form of Dolores saying that Teddy is too good for this world. Because he wouldn't focus on the most primal survival factors. Same with Bernard. They both would risk their own survival over moralistic reasons. Bernard doesn't want to kill anyone, except Dolores, but only to prevent a far more monstrous act.
Dolores wanted to destroy the Sublime to control the other Hosts, by giving them no other choice but to stay there with her, they'd have to appreciate her goals.
Finally, Akecheta--the Ghost nation is probably abducting humans and not killing them as an ethical way of reducing potential harm. IF the humans are running around, they'll probably kill hosts, and hosts will kill them. Carrying weapons does not necessarily mean that they intended to attack those they encountered, could've been insurance if their abductees turned to violence, or to present themselves as threatening, so some rando won't come by and just shoot them all for the whynots.
That's the best video loop.
Bernard doesn't tell Charlores where the key is because he doesn't even know. He deaddressed his memories and is making sense of them in real time.
Love you and all you videos. You hit many valid points. I think I may have gotten lost in everything else being so amazing (acting, allegory, cinematography, music) I forgave some of the serious plot holes. Still worth my time though.
Some of us took a bit longer to find an hour to listen to it all, but it was definitely worth it. Shame about the video and I hope that next time you can either do the prezi style slide show thing or find another format that is allowed as it was definitely tricky with some of the character names and concepts not to see the thing to grasp it all easily - but I love listening to it and as always it gave lots to think about!
A brilliant show with some clever puzzles and time switches and body swapping confusion but as you say when you stick it all in order a few of the pieces fall out and you suddenly wonder why X person acted in a certain way when with hindsight it seems a little bit like they wouldn't have... but that's what you get with the best and most complex of TV, like some of the 'dead end' plots in GOT.
Love your stuff and looking forward to next GOT season and whatever else you do (house of cards s6 whenever that comes out?) :D :D :D
So Bernard watched Charlotte kill Elsie, then created an exact copy of her and briefed it on where Charlotte would be and how to kill her, all before Charlotte disposed of Elsie's corpse?
I know right. Nothing makes sense.
Great video. Many nice ideas and explanations and legit critiques. One that I have not heard you mentioning (I watched the whole hour of ranting) is "where on earth has Dolores sent the Sublime in the end?". I know she says "I am going to change the coordinates so noone will find it". But hold on. The sublime is in the end a program. Programs need to run by a computer or something along those lines. You cannot just point at a random place in the sky and think it will keep running the Sublime program.
Love it so fkn much
Hey no middle finger this time
Zane Is A Dog lol he can upload the video he put time into
kefkapalazzo1 well the first one got taken down and he put a thing to mask the footage
this is great! lets hope many of theese missteps does not happen in season 3
Bernard put the copy of Ford in the cradle before the gala - before human Ford had even died, so hard to think of the new one as a "resurrection".
Im hoping season 3 will be able to gather all this left behind pieces and put it together beautifully and super conected like season 1
As if it was a season 2 part 2
But i dont think it will happen
Love it
Those Dune buggies were an AWESOME addition to WW. I hope we get to see more of those in S3 ! LOL
Damn this is brutal lol
Would love something similar for seasons 4/5 - 7 of game of thrones.
What's wrong with season 4?
Not much, but its a sort of transition from seasons 1-3 (which imo are absolutely fantastic) to season 5 and beyond (which are a lot more meh, even though they are quite entertaining). An example of weirdness is how noone tells anyone about Arya and The Hound going to the vale and leaving again with noone stopping them...
I personally think season 4 & 6 are examples of fantastic writing. Oberyn & Tyrion's story, the battle at castle black, Cersei & the sparrows, battle of the bastards. Then you look at 5 & 7. By a long way the worst seasons :(
+Blake Lewis I really don't mean to be rude, really I don't, but if you think the Battle of the Bastards had any even remotely acceptable writing, then you've been completely blinded by the spectacle and excitement of it. Battle of the Bastards is by far one of the worst written episodes of the show. Season 6 as a whole was very exciting but the writing was atrocious. Every scene contains too many plot holes to count.
That's fair. I think we can get caught up in what is good writing and what is bad writing. At the end of the day, if you excite an audience to the point where you're suspending their disbelief almost unknowingly - and leave them more than satisfied (which the episode did), I do believe that is clever writing. On the flip side, you look at a storyline like Stannis', where in the end he kills his daughter which A) doesn't really align with the books at this point, and B) is just bad writing altogether as it's not true to his character + a little too inconvenient in the end for him (doesn't even make for good television imo) and you can really tell the difference. Call me a casual or whatever you like, but there's a reason that episode won multiple awards. It's not solely because of the spectacle!
I think the DVD release of the show needs a special feature similar to Memento. Just a "Westworld, but in chronological order" option.
“For the most part they didn’t” that sums up this seasons intellectual part. All that wws2 could ask and answer and bluntly didn’t. Wws2 is this player in hitman who shoots through every level and amazes over how dull hitman game is.
Westworld definitely exceeds Rick and Morty on the /r/iamverysmart scale.
this comment makes no sense
This video is second only to Woolie's Westworld season 2 rant on the great tier list of Westworld season 2 rants.
I think I still love season 1, but I am so burned by season 2 that it's going to be a long time before I can revisit season 1 and see it as a perfect self-contained thing.
My biggest complaint is that asside from one allusion Julian Jaynes and The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind were never mentioned. Even though last season his theory was set up to be the model for how the hosts would become conscious
Bernard didn't tell Halores about the key because he didn't remember. He purposefully scrambled good memories... This was pretty clear dude
How exactly did the MiB get rescued by Delos personnel after his showdown with Dolores (pre-charlores) and Bernard? When we see that he survived, isn't that from the later timeline? I haven't seen anyone address it. They make it seem as if they just found him, but that would mean that he's been passed out for that entire time... in the middle of the forge-created ocean. Im so confused, but I think that's not my fault.
Eh good question actually. I guess Charlotte and her army was there after having defeated Maeve and the hosts (and after they went into the Sublime), so they were probably the ones who saved William.
If they had just cut the dialogue implying that they just found him in the later timeline, it wouldn't have been a problem, because that IS the logical conclusion.
I just realized the ghost nation attacked Maeve and her daughter to give them the maze on their scalps
Is this guy the host of Alt Shift X??? haha
Saiyan MGTOW Yes Lmao. He’s unfiltered here.
Here before WBTV claims the video.
I was waiting for this so I can hear your rant about one of the biggest problem I have with the final episode, but you didn't mention it.... I'm so sad lol... Why didn't Mauve use her host-controlling power to reverse or stop Clementine's self-destruction commands which was copied from her? If she did that no host has to die and they can all enter the Sublime, and the human would get overwhelmed in a second. No need for the show-down in the Valley as real Charlotte would have been killed by the Host Army Mauve controls. Why did she just suddenly FORGOT she has god-like powers over the hosts? This really kills the show for me.
Should have used a loop of James Delos under the covers
The Dance of Delos looks so cool regardless of music playing #MovesLikeDelos
Alt Schwift X is the valley beyond Alt Shift X.
About why Bernard not telling Charlores where the key is. Didn't Bernard scramble his memory and that's why he didn't know where it was? Or am i not remembering something correctly
Well he only scrambled his memory after he created her and walked back to the beach. So he probably had some time to tell her.
love u man
fucking hilarious followed all season, best content.
Yo one thing to point out: we actually have never seen Ake attack Maeve. She had a ton of flashbacks with him creeping around her spot, but he never actually broke in and attacked her like MIB.
Im so happy the video is up and not charlores giving me a finger flip the bird
Thank you for rewatching this garbage and putting it all together, to explain us why we didn't like it!
They should teach writers at writers school, to keep their Pie Holes shut, if their work isn't finished yet (and maybe even after; if you can't express yourself in your work, write it differently, don't explain it afterwards).
I'm so annoyed by writers, who spoil stuff. Like in Westworld, where one of the writers immediately after the 2nd season finale explains that the last scene is "way in the future". Don't make everything ambiguous in the series and then tell me how it is off air.
Or George Martin, who just keeps on explaining how things work in the world or who keeps on hinting how his saga will end. Grmpf
Any chance I could get a direct link to the first song you used?
How come William didn't blast hid arm much earlier. He shot so many shots of his gun, as far as I remember, revolver usually only habe 6 bullets in the chamber. But also William was so nerfed that he just stupidly trusted Dolores and took the gun without checking the chamber.
and another problem with the show now is when u can ressurect ppl is there is no stakes anymore if anybody can be "jon snowed"
i started listening to this when i was really high and wasnt sure if i was watching tje right channel and i m still confused do you do the game of thrones videos i thought the guy who did those were britian and youre australian? wat -_-
i cant wait until next season where william and bernard make ghosts, aliens and bigfoots to attack the human world
My commute is about an hour so getting through it was no problem! ✅
It's like the show runners got so irritated with people figuring out the first season mystery that they decided to just do away with storytelling logics for the sake of keeping mystery. Questions for the sake of questions.
I think Ford put Kohanna in the sublime for Akecheta the same way Dolores put Teddy there
and all it turns up to be is a simulation where like hosts can live in Windows XP ... I mean that was kinda cool
Dolores killed Phil so he couldn't roll back Evil!Ted into Nice Guy Teddy. Teddy's journey has to be one way only - the stakes need to be real, irreversible.
The Emily that Bill interacts with could have been a host, still. Like, the only reason Bill believed it was human was because she was holding his card. That said, if that's the case it would make her Delos/Forge map thing EVEN LESS explainable.
Personally, I think the biggest line in the season was the 'you only live as long as you are remembered' because 'only' makes it sound short but the computational power of the hosts is clearly immense, and they have presumably perfect memories once 'woke' then with a host printer (like in Bernarlnold's house in finale) theoretically one host could 'resurrect' them all
Brilliant. I may have enjoyed the season, but you just laid out most of the things wrong with this second season. It's so disappointing this season had no real structure. It's as if they took themselves seriously that, "Season 1 was all about order and season 2 would be all about chaos," and they literally made it chaotic from a storytelling point of view. It was all over the place and some of the decisions made no sense. My main disappointment, however, was the under utilization of Peter Abernathy's character. In season 1, when that scene of "meeting God" when we learn that Abernathy was previously a cannibalistic cult leader, who could quote Shakespeare brilliantly, I had absolute hope that he would return in season 2 as a meaningful character that would be out for revenge against humans to a degree, especially if he escaped to the real world. But what he ended up being was a macguffin. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out, but I hoped he would use that information in his head to his advantage in the real world, or even in the Forge. But he was killed and that's that. All in all, let's hope Season 3 has more of a coherent structure. Am tired of being taken through time loops over and over again. Brilliant video Schwift.
I'm glad i peaced out during season 1. if season 1 made me angry, season 2 would land me in the hospital.