As a previous sister missionary placed in numerous dangerous situations on my mission i loved this movie . If it makes the church take more care of their young people its working . Love the panel but the comnents show that members continue to fear anything that appears to critize the church .
It's not fear, but rather love for our sister's that such a film can cause concern. Considering how Hollywood has a history of exploiting the innocent.
16:45 Benjamin touched on how LDS do not appreciate the difference between a heretic and an apostate. It's true that we don't use the word in LDS life very much, but a heretic is not an apostate. A heretic is someone who remains in the faith but holds radical views (in the eye of the mainstream group). We use apostate to mean anyone who has left the fold, either by ideology or sin, but really is means anyone who disavows beliefs previously held.
Steven is so right about Robert Duvall's betrayal of his character in the Apostle. I'm fifth generation classical Pentecostal and it's the best portrayal of that culture that I have ever seen in film. I'm headed to see Heretic tonight. The conversation has me excited.
❤️🧡💛💚💙💜💙💚💛🧡❤️🧡💛 We are ALL the SAME PERSON experiencing life in a BUNCH OF DIFFERENT BODIES!!! which means that EVERY PERSON that you meet, is really just YOU... LIVING IN ANOTHER BODY!! you see..you are INTERACTING with YOURSELF at ALL TIMES!!! & once you understand this,you can achieve unity! I and my father are one Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself 💜💙💚💛🧡❤️🧡💛💚💙💜💙💚
I thought the film was a criticism of all religion with the LDS faith just used as a vehicle to make the point. I frankly walked out thinking it was silly. With time and watching various reviews I’ve come to appreciate the thought provoking nature of the movie. I may even see it again.
@Zeett09 - I too thought the movie was silly. At one point I even laughed out loud. For a brief moment the movie became a comedy instead of a horror flick. It was the moment when the missionaries decide on the secret phrase they will use to signal to each other. No Latter-day Saint would ever say that and I couldn't figure out if was meant to be hilarious, mocking, or if the script writers thought missionaries would actually suggest it.
@theuniversejumper - Yes, but that phrase choice was hilarious because most Latter-day Saints would never even think of that as an option in a serious situation. Most Latter-day Saints never use that as part of our vocabulary, so it's not going to pop into our head in an emergency.
I am LDS and I don’t ever judge anybody who leaves the church I have 11 brothers and sisters we’re in and out of the church. I love everyone of them no matter where they are in life. I have friends who left the church. I still love them. I don’t know what he’s talking about. I don’t know anybody who thinks that people who leave the church are dangerous. That is just total bull crap!
I was surprised to learn this week that many Latter-day Saints apparently shy away from horror. I've been LDS my whole life, and horror-when it's done well-is my favorite genre. This aversion to horror has never been part of my experience with Mormonism. Growing up, our ward fully embraced Halloween-we even had a 'haunted house' in the church every year. From what I’ve gathered, it seems many Latter-day Saints conflate being scared or uncomfortable with a "loss of the Spirit." To me, writing off horror feels a bit like Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec writing off travel to Europe because he's so "American." His eventual reluctant trip to Scotland brings him to tears of joy. I liked Heretic for its LDS representation, but it’s funny to me that some Latter-day Saints are coming out of Heretic saying it’s an amazing horror movie. I don’t think that’s true-I think they just haven’t been exposed to many genuinely great horror films.
I like the horror genre as well. I think much of the reluctance may be because of the content of many horror movies: nudity, sex, graphic violence, gore, etc. Basically, much of what was common in horror films of the 70s and 80s. For me, good horror goes beyond that.
I find it extremely ironic that the same week Heretic with Elder Kennedy gets released, the church announces single men over 40 can now serve missions (and won't have companions)...lol
After being Mormon for my whole life and attending BYU, I found Secret Lives to be extremely accurate. Pressure to get married young and lack of knowledge about contraceptives (enjoying sex without deciding to spend the rest of your life with someone at 17 is not an option, but a huge impact on all the girls, especially the 3 who are single), hyper focus on appearance, association with people who are more wealthy being "blessed" for their righteousness (fun fact, area authorities use tithing records when deciding who call as bishops/stake presidents which totally correlates to my wards. I haven't had any teacher bishops for example, but plenty of dentists and business owners), shaming and judging people for perceived sins, women taking a back seat in every decision, etc. Some of these aren't unique to Mormonism but are more emphasized, others are unique. There's also something to be said for cliques existing within each community, and the people in that series are more of the Utah County/BYU/preppy crowd, and slightly less similar to my Washington state hometown community. So the degree that you might consider it "accurate" can vary, but it resonated a ton with my lived experiences.
@alextemus I went to Rick's College in the 90s, and that was not my experience. The Secret lives women seem to be suffering from affluenza, and are a really inaccurate depiction of the lives of the vast majority of LDS women
@@DesertPrimrose For sure, I think a few of the topics in the show are more regional or "clique" based, but I think you'll acknowlege that several aspects are universal
It was interesting to hear multiple perspectives. I felt the Evangelical was less edgy/harsh than the others. I didn't feel the spirit or lifted by the conversation. It felt like those who were learned thinking they're wise. I love humble and pure I love the gospel and am uplifted by words of truth. I don't feel that this production is vital or needed to bring people closer to Christ. A friend at work finding her way out of a faith crisis was brought back down again after this movie. It might make you think but if that thinking is not bringing you closer to God there are better vessels.
In many ways, you're right. It's just a movie, not as great or terrible as many would have it. There are much better ways to deal with a crisis of faith.
Awesome discussion and movie. Both gave me a ton to think about. I don’t agree that the anti religious arguments Mr Reed made can be just dismissed so easily. But instead, in the movie I think both sides mirrored the other. In real life, missionaries present an intriguing but simple version of their belief. Upon examination you realize that many of their claims can be easily argued that they are misleading (first vision, apostasy, how BoM came about, prophets, etc.). Some would call their teachings a shallow version of that faith. Others would call it the best possible spin or even deceiving. However, their overarching story is one that helps make sense of what people feel about their lives. (Oh, that’s why I’m here, that’s why bad things can happen because this life is just one act, etc.). Likewise, Mr. Reed presented a simple version of a case against religion. Upon examination one can find problems (all these other deities born on the 25th and from virgins?). Some would find his version shallow and even deceiving. However, it provides an answer to what we see (so many faiths from different cultures that share many similar themes and they seem to cross pollinate over time). Both sides are offering one simplified version of their claim. Mr. Reed even says something like, “we’re having a transaction here, a transaction of ideology”. I think both are mirrors of the other. Problematic explanations that are an attempt to answer deep instinctual hunches that people have. Both sides could claim that the overarching point they make is compelling, even if the details get muddy.
Excellent synopsis. Thankyou. I found it a very interesting film with great acting. I no longer believe but found it a compelling argument for the human need to believe (something); though not compelling enough to encourage me to revisit religiosity.
But many of the details he mentions about various gods are false; he's creating similarities that just don't exist. Or should I say, the writers made much of it up to give Mr. Reed a basis for his argument. Comparing Christ to Horus is odd and certainly fringe; Osiris is a better connection as he was killed by his brother, resurrected, and became the god of the afterlife. However, there certainly are legitimate comparisons between Christ in the New Testament and gods of other cultures and atheists like to point this out. Interestingly, LDS theology is in a better position than much of Christianity to answer these questions .
I thought heretic was a great piece of art because, like an ink blot, people reveal more about themselves in the analysis than the movie itself. It's obvious this movie wasn't about Mormonism, but about "certainty" in general - questioning "why we believe" and Mormonism is a great template in that regard - as it has a rather liberal theological standard of "worshipping within the dictates of your own conscience." A case could be made that it even questions "reality". The entire movie leading to the surviving missionary (that's still in her journey of faith discovery) to the "butterfly dream" analogy - which, in that regard, is an exploration humanity and the roles we choose to play in trying to "control" others and why. Why do missionaries go on missions? Why do people want to prove other religions wrong? It's almost as if the "war in heaven" never ended and is ongoing. "Magic underwear" is symbolic of the "assault" and violation of one's faith. (The central focus of the prank at the beginning, the 'keyword' when someone was sent to their death later in their movie.) The temple garments is identified as "a shield of faith" within thr mormon religion, and a sense of identity that separates us from the world. And yet, in that regard, the movie isn't even about religion, but about societal systems and free will. This, the movie shares the same theme as "the Matrix" trilogy. Nobody has free will, all our choices are influenced to lead us one way or another, and we're living out our programming. Why do we wear the clothes we do? Why do women put on make up? We each wear our own "garments" that if we think about it, challenges our ideas of "control" in our lives and our true self-identity.
23 minute mark here is wild. Having a fundamentalist mormon talking about control of women 😅😅😅. And the dude follows him up, not really realizing what a sociopath obsessed with the study of religious control would experiment with.
The purpose of the simulation nonsense was to show that if something is not able to be falsified then it can be easily dismissed. Religion that retreats to unfalsifiability are on shaky grounds for demanding compliance and obedience because you can't substantiate it. This is a good reason to pushback against harmful aspects of religion that aren't grounded in reality
if religion is more humble in not knowing ultimate reality and defers to history and science, then those are more grounded in reality. Atheism is likely the most defensible position but often lacks community and meaning. @@vfxtutswithdan1893
I just thought they could have done so much more with it. So many missed opportunities. Also found moments nonsensical in a believing context like feeling the spirit from p*rn and reincarnation. I’d give it a 6/10.
After a lifetime of Fast and Testimony meetings and General Conferences I'm totally certain Latter-day Saints are capable of turning literally any scenario into a faith promoting spiritual experience. I've heard it all. Surely you have too?... That was the point being made by those scenes.
@ After a lifetime of fast and testimonies. I have never heard p*rn represented in a positive light in any way. The % of individuals in the church who have had a “spiritual” experience with p*rn are likely extremely small. So the narrative in my opinion is nonsensical and unrealistic. If they wanted a more realistic demonstration of turning anything into something faith promoting, I would have chosen the finding the lost keys story. That one I have heard in many many testimonies.
@@youcanknow4yourself Jeffrey Holland in General Conference gave a whole talk about praying to know which road to take at a fork and it turned out to be the wrong road .....and still turned that into a faith promoting experience! Getting the wrong answer to prayer, or mistaking his own ideas for revelation. Others go for having the faith not to be healed when priesthood blessings donlt save your life as faith promoting. The General Conference Death March as Radio Free Mormon calls it added several more bodies to the death toll in October. Ther is a long track record of making totally inappropriate or irrelevant things into . testimony food. And I've heard several over the years regarding sexual situations. People will attach spiritual significance to every aspect of huiman experience.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 I’m well aware of the talk and the critique on it. What I’m saying is they missed an opportunity at a more realistic example of turning something into a faith promoting message. A “spiritual” experience with p*rn is just not very realistic in my opinion when compared to other options. I would have found other options more though provoking.
@@youcanknow4yourself That's what you get when you have non-members (sorry for that term) researching LDS beliefs and practices and then trying to recreate them to tell their story; it just doesn't feel right. The funny thing is that the creators of this movie just don't get that point. No LDS writer would have come up with such a spiritual experience. It might have been something dumb, but it wouldn't have been what was in the movie. Of course almost nothing is impossible, just beyond unlikely.
Uhhhhh, Exmo ENM and Mormon polygamy are far from the same thing. I agree with most of these assessments. Hugh Grant's character is basically a dark vision of me or what most Mormons think that I am as an Exmormon Atheist. (Frankly, undersold it a little).
Please share how he or other prophets forsaw and warned people of the first or second war, the holocaust, 911, etc and saved countless of lives. Please show videos of him or other prophets warning people of these events
Please show how President Hinkley used the Holy Ghost or power of discernment to know Larry Hoffman was a fraud and prevent him from using sacred funds to by fraudulent documents……
Ok. Sed was leaving. But. Remember girlfriend in college who proudly wore button which proclaimed thank God I'm an atheist. Today she is a Moorish American. Ok.
That should have been unpacked more... there wasn't enough time for that to be unpacked. If man is made in the image of God... Then woman is made in the image of... Goddess. But because we don't have a Goddess in the forefront... it often hard to find models for feminine characteristics. Some may say those characteristics are nurturance, creation, teaching, etc....
I guess the answer to that depends upon 1) whether you believe binary gender is eternal and 2) how far you are willing to imagine God in the image of humanity. The Hebrew Scriptures say that God created man in his own image and that male and female are manifestations of that image. But the Hebrews believed that although God is referred to in the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, and the Prophets with masculine imagery and grammatical forms, traditional Jewish philosophy does not attribute gender to God. Gendered language in Jewish literature and mystical writing was never understood by Jews to imply that God is gender-specific. Building selectively on the old theological foundation, Joseph Smith veered away from it and developed a fully anthropomorphic view of God, using the created (humankind) to define the Creator. In this view if God is male then there must be Goddess who is female. Yet apart from a few confidences shared with his spiritual wives, Smith never bothered to develop a theology of the Heavenly Mother, leaving a vacuum. No modern prophet has dared to receive revelation that might fill that vacuum, abandoning Mormon women to an anthropomorphized male Deity as their spiritual role model. How far should this anthropomorphic model go? Do we infer that just as mortal men and women have emotional differences that cause their spirituality to be manifest in different ways, so too do Father and Mother God have differences that complement and complete the Divine Image? Or is there no spiritual dimorphism at all between Heavenly Father and Mother - just different celestial bodies with different genitalia? If the latter is true where does that leave the eternal purpose of gender in non-reproductive beings? What would be the point of unmarried male or female "servants" in the afterlife? In their case gender would only be a relic of mortality, and if there is no use for it, gender is not likely to be the universal and eternal condition for humanity that we imagine. My view is that both Mormon theology and traditional Hebrew theology have failed women in significant ways. There is not space to elaborate on that idea here, but suffice it to note that the creation story in Genesis in addition to the one the Book of Moses seem to have it backwards. In reality the genesis of every human being in utero would seem to tell a very different story about our Creator's actual starting point. It turns out that we all begin life as a single cell that is female - an X chromosome - with which another X or a Y may combine to produce gendered individuals. Why then should it be Adam who was created first and Eve elaborated from one of his ribs? This theological incongruity is more evidence that where men and women are concerned, "masculine spirituality" tends to play up its superiority at the expense of its feminine counterpart.
The episode comes across as if y’all are making fun of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! I am GLAD that the church stood up against this movie and the tv show recently! It doesn’t represent the ppl of this church! It represents a prideful few.
Another ckevercway to attack not just religion, but specifically Christianity. Another anti- mormon film. I find it unfortunate that people that call themselves Christians would gind yhis to be anything remotely close to being a good movie.
Don't do horror movies but ❤d Alfred Hitchcock. 😮😮😮😮hmm hated Psycho. Ok am Gemini.sue me. Point I meant to make was as convert alwayd felt if you believe in creator must have adversary.😮😮😮
As a previous sister missionary placed in numerous dangerous situations on my mission i loved this movie . If it makes the church take more care of their young people its working . Love the panel but the comnents show that members continue to fear anything that appears to critize the church .
It's not fear, but rather love for our sister's that such a film can cause concern. Considering how Hollywood has a history of exploiting the innocent.
Favourite commentary on the movie I've heard so far! Brilliant panel.
16:45 Benjamin touched on how LDS do not appreciate the difference between a heretic and an apostate. It's true that we don't use the word in LDS life very much, but a heretic is not an apostate. A heretic is someone who remains in the faith but holds radical views (in the eye of the mainstream group). We use apostate to mean anyone who has left the fold, either by ideology or sin, but really is means anyone who disavows beliefs previously held.
Steven is so right about Robert Duvall's betrayal of his character in the Apostle. I'm fifth generation classical Pentecostal and it's the best portrayal of that culture that I have ever seen in film. I'm headed to see Heretic tonight. The conversation has me excited.
As an exmo atheist I would love to see a mixed panel to discuss
I agree!
❤️🧡💛💚💙💜💙💚💛🧡❤️🧡💛
We are ALL the SAME PERSON experiencing life in a BUNCH
OF DIFFERENT BODIES!!! which
means that EVERY PERSON
that you meet, is really just YOU...
LIVING IN ANOTHER BODY!!
you see..you are INTERACTING with YOURSELF at ALL TIMES!!! & once you understand this,you can achieve unity!
I and my father are one
Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself
💜💙💚💛🧡❤️🧡💛💚💙💜💙💚
I thought the film was a criticism of all religion with the LDS faith just used as a vehicle to make the point. I frankly walked out thinking it was silly. With time and watching various reviews I’ve come to appreciate the thought provoking nature of the movie. I may even see it again.
@Zeett09 - I too thought the movie was silly. At one point I even laughed out loud. For a brief moment the movie became a comedy instead of a horror flick. It was the moment when the missionaries decide on the secret phrase they will use to signal to each other. No Latter-day Saint would ever say that and I couldn't figure out if was meant to be hilarious, mocking, or if the script writers thought missionaries would actually suggest it.
@@micheleh3851 I mean if I ever was in a situation where I needed a code word, I would try to choose a word I wouldn't usually say otherwise.
@theuniversejumper - Yes, but that phrase choice was hilarious because most Latter-day Saints would never even think of that as an option in a serious situation. Most Latter-day Saints never use that as part of our vocabulary, so it's not going to pop into our head in an emergency.
Another movie with complex religious characters is “First Reform” with Ethan Hawke
I agree!
I am LDS and I don’t ever judge anybody who leaves the church I have 11 brothers and sisters we’re in and out of the church. I love everyone of them no matter where they are in life. I have friends who left the church. I still love them. I don’t know what he’s talking about. I don’t know anybody who thinks that people who leave the church are dangerous. That is just total bull crap!
Great comment here. Thanks for sharing it.
I was surprised to learn this week that many Latter-day Saints apparently shy away from horror. I've been LDS my whole life, and horror-when it's done well-is my favorite genre. This aversion to horror has never been part of my experience with Mormonism. Growing up, our ward fully embraced Halloween-we even had a 'haunted house' in the church every year.
From what I’ve gathered, it seems many Latter-day Saints conflate being scared or uncomfortable with a "loss of the Spirit." To me, writing off horror feels a bit like Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec writing off travel to Europe because he's so "American." His eventual reluctant trip to Scotland brings him to tears of joy.
I liked Heretic for its LDS representation, but it’s funny to me that some Latter-day Saints are coming out of Heretic saying it’s an amazing horror movie. I don’t think that’s true-I think they just haven’t been exposed to many genuinely great horror films.
Thank you. Found this food 4 thouhht🎉🎉🎉🎉5🎉 um thought...😮😮🎉🎉🎉😂😂
Really ❤ this thought provoking comment.
Depends what scares you. This movie gets 🌟🌟🌟 from many of those who saw it. I don't watch horror movies but my grandkids do.
I like the horror genre as well. I think much of the reluctance may be because of the content of many horror movies: nudity, sex, graphic violence, gore, etc. Basically, much of what was common in horror films of the 70s and 80s. For me, good horror goes beyond that.
Holy smokes super powerful truth from Jasmine about polygamy and the value of women!
Been watching Jim Bennet for ages. Still can't figure out who he reminds me of. ❤ him though.🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
"The word does not come back void." 😊
The Heretic movie's "holy rolling" shouting & theatrical antics is how our LDS Mormon Church was in the Prophet Joseph Smith's day. :.
I find it extremely ironic that the same week Heretic with Elder Kennedy gets released, the church announces single men over 40 can now serve missions (and won't have companions)...lol
Glad you r feeling better Steve. ❤ 2 u. ❤ 2 Mom.
The Mormon Wives show is not actually accurate 🤷♀️
Agreed! I am GLAD the church stands up!
After being Mormon for my whole life and attending BYU, I found Secret Lives to be extremely accurate.
Pressure to get married young and lack of knowledge about contraceptives (enjoying sex without deciding to spend the rest of your life with someone at 17 is not an option, but a huge impact on all the girls, especially the 3 who are single), hyper focus on appearance, association with people who are more wealthy being "blessed" for their righteousness (fun fact, area authorities use tithing records when deciding who call as bishops/stake presidents which totally correlates to my wards. I haven't had any teacher bishops for example, but plenty of dentists and business owners), shaming and judging people for perceived sins, women taking a back seat in every decision, etc.
Some of these aren't unique to Mormonism but are more emphasized, others are unique.
There's also something to be said for cliques existing within each community, and the people in that series are more of the Utah County/BYU/preppy crowd, and slightly less similar to my Washington state hometown community. So the degree that you might consider it "accurate" can vary, but it resonated a ton with my lived experiences.
@alextemus I went to Rick's College in the 90s, and that was not my experience. The Secret lives women seem to be suffering from affluenza, and are a really inaccurate depiction of the lives of the vast majority of LDS women
@alextemus my last bishop was a teacher, and current bishop is an elementary principal.
@@DesertPrimrose For sure, I think a few of the topics in the show are more regional or "clique" based, but I think you'll acknowlege that several aspects are universal
1:03:59 they actually have Heretic rated PG-13 in Utah
I thought the fun in Mormon fundamentalism comes from the wives. 😂
Thought it was cool the credits song was sung by the Sister Barnes actress.
It was interesting to hear multiple perspectives. I felt the Evangelical was less edgy/harsh than the others. I didn't feel the spirit or lifted by the conversation. It felt like those who were learned thinking they're wise. I love humble and pure I love the gospel and am uplifted by words of truth. I don't feel that this production is vital or needed to bring people closer to Christ. A friend at work finding her way out of a faith crisis was brought back down again after this movie. It might make you think but if that thinking is not bringing you closer to God there are better vessels.
In many ways, you're right. It's just a movie, not as great or terrible as many would have it. There are much better ways to deal with a crisis of faith.
Awesome discussion and movie. Both gave me a ton to think about.
I don’t agree that the anti religious arguments Mr Reed made can be just dismissed so easily. But instead, in the movie I think both sides mirrored the other.
In real life, missionaries present an intriguing but simple version of their belief. Upon examination you realize that many of their claims can be easily argued that they are misleading (first vision, apostasy, how BoM came about, prophets, etc.). Some would call their teachings a shallow version of that faith. Others would call it the best possible spin or even deceiving. However, their overarching story is one that helps make sense of what people feel about their lives. (Oh, that’s why I’m here, that’s why bad things can happen because this life is just one act, etc.).
Likewise, Mr. Reed presented a simple version of a case against religion. Upon examination one can find problems (all these other deities born on the 25th and from virgins?). Some would find his version shallow and even deceiving. However, it provides an answer to what we see (so many faiths from different cultures that share many similar themes and they seem to cross pollinate over time).
Both sides are offering one simplified version of their claim.
Mr. Reed even says something like, “we’re having a transaction here, a transaction of ideology”.
I think both are mirrors of the other. Problematic explanations that are an attempt to answer deep instinctual hunches that people have.
Both sides could claim that the overarching point they make is compelling, even if the details get muddy.
Excellent synopsis. Thankyou.
I found it a very interesting film with great acting.
I no longer believe but found it a compelling argument for the human need to believe (something); though not compelling enough to encourage me to revisit religiosity.
But many of the details he mentions about various gods are false; he's creating similarities that just don't exist. Or should I say, the writers made much of it up to give Mr. Reed a basis for his argument. Comparing Christ to Horus is odd and certainly fringe; Osiris is a better connection as he was killed by his brother, resurrected, and became the god of the afterlife. However, there certainly are legitimate comparisons between Christ in the New Testament and gods of other cultures and atheists like to point this out. Interestingly, LDS theology is in a better position than much of Christianity to answer these questions .
Um am over it. Love it. Thanx 4 spoilers. Ok. One died. Now I may Have to go see movie. 😮😮😮😮
I thought heretic was a great piece of art because, like an ink blot, people reveal more about themselves in the analysis than the movie itself. It's obvious this movie wasn't about Mormonism, but about "certainty" in general - questioning "why we believe" and Mormonism is a great template in that regard - as it has a rather liberal theological standard of "worshipping within the dictates of your own conscience."
A case could be made that it even questions "reality". The entire movie leading to the surviving missionary (that's still in her journey of faith discovery) to the "butterfly dream" analogy - which, in that regard, is an exploration humanity and the roles we choose to play in trying to "control" others and why. Why do missionaries go on missions? Why do people want to prove other religions wrong? It's almost as if the "war in heaven" never ended and is ongoing.
"Magic underwear" is symbolic of the "assault" and violation of one's faith. (The central focus of the prank at the beginning, the 'keyword' when someone was sent to their death later in their movie.) The temple garments is identified as "a shield of faith" within thr mormon religion, and a sense of identity that separates us from the world. And yet, in that regard, the movie isn't even about religion, but about societal systems and free will. This, the movie shares the same theme as "the Matrix" trilogy. Nobody has free will, all our choices are influenced to lead us one way or another, and we're living out our programming.
Why do we wear the clothes we do? Why do women put on make up? We each wear our own "garments" that if we think about it, challenges our ideas of "control" in our lives and our true self-identity.
23 minute mark here is wild. Having a fundamentalist mormon talking about control of women 😅😅😅. And the dude follows him up, not really realizing what a sociopath obsessed with the study of religious control would experiment with.
Hello loves
❤d this. People çritical thin̈king 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂yay
The purpose of the simulation nonsense was to show that if something is not able to be falsified then it can be easily dismissed.
Religion that retreats to unfalsifiability are on shaky grounds for demanding compliance and obedience because you can't substantiate it. This is a good reason to pushback against harmful aspects of religion that aren't grounded in reality
Are any religions grounded in reality, in your view?
if religion is more humble in not knowing ultimate reality and defers to history and science, then those are more grounded in reality.
Atheism is likely the most defensible position but often lacks community and meaning.
@@vfxtutswithdan1893
Oh dear. Remember real life case like dungeon scene. Creepy for real forever. Am 76. Like was 17 18 or so. Okay.praise God. Peace out...
Could not disagree more. It really did portray members of the church as naïve. Not sure what Kyle is talking about
So it's accurate.
@@thelastgoonie6555 So all Mormons are the same. Got it.
Mr Reed was wearing a wedding band so maybe one of the women was his wife
Pretty sure this was just part of his scheme
Great panel discussion. If only Jacob Hansen would have joined in the discussion. 😂😂😂
I'm hoping he watches the movie and talks with me about it!
Ugh...his takes are too predictable to bother.
I just thought they could have done so much more with it. So many missed opportunities.
Also found moments nonsensical in a believing context like feeling the spirit from p*rn and reincarnation. I’d give it a 6/10.
After a lifetime of Fast and Testimony meetings and General Conferences I'm totally certain Latter-day Saints are capable of turning literally any scenario into a faith promoting spiritual experience. I've heard it all. Surely you have too?... That was the point being made by those scenes.
@ After a lifetime of fast and testimonies. I have never heard p*rn represented in a positive light in any way. The % of individuals in the church who have had a “spiritual” experience with p*rn are likely extremely small. So the narrative in my opinion is nonsensical and unrealistic. If they wanted a more realistic demonstration of turning anything into something faith promoting, I would have chosen the finding the lost keys story. That one I have heard in many many testimonies.
@@youcanknow4yourself Jeffrey Holland in General Conference gave a whole talk about praying to know which road to take at a fork and it turned out to be the wrong road .....and still turned that into a faith promoting experience! Getting the wrong answer to prayer, or mistaking his own ideas for revelation. Others go for having the faith not to be healed when priesthood blessings donlt save your life as faith promoting. The General Conference Death March as Radio Free Mormon calls it added several more bodies to the death toll in October. Ther is a long track record of making totally inappropriate or irrelevant things into . testimony food. And I've heard several over the years regarding sexual situations. People will attach spiritual significance to every aspect of huiman experience.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 I’m well aware of the talk and the critique on it. What I’m saying is they missed an opportunity at a more realistic example of turning something into a faith promoting message. A “spiritual” experience with p*rn is just not very realistic in my opinion when compared to other options. I would have found other options more though provoking.
@@youcanknow4yourself That's what you get when you have non-members (sorry for that term) researching LDS beliefs and practices and then trying to recreate them to tell their story; it just doesn't feel right. The funny thing is that the creators of this movie just don't get that point. No LDS writer would have come up with such a spiritual experience. It might have been something dumb, but it wouldn't have been what was in the movie. Of course almost nothing is impossible, just beyond unlikely.
Uhhhhh, Exmo ENM and Mormon polygamy are far from the same thing. I agree with most of these assessments. Hugh Grant's character is basically a dark vision of me or what most Mormons think that I am as an Exmormon Atheist. (Frankly, undersold it a little).
Maybe you think that of yourself?
@@kennabruno7465 think what exactly?
You really think that's how active Mormons see you?
Anyone who can criticize the prophet Gordon B Hinkley isn’t worth listening to!! Do you think you know more than he does Benjamin Shaffer?! You don’t!
Joseph Smith was a con boy…everyone that followed are too.
Please share how he or other prophets forsaw and warned people of the first or second war, the holocaust, 911, etc and saved countless of lives. Please show videos of him or other prophets warning people of these events
Please show how President Hinkley used the Holy Ghost or power of discernment to know Larry Hoffman was a fraud and prevent him from using sacred funds to by fraudulent documents……
@@JDPrimeFit You mean Mark Hoffman?
Got it. Will Never see this film.
Ok. Sed was leaving. But. Remember girlfriend in college who proudly wore button which proclaimed thank God I'm an atheist. Today she is a Moorish American. Ok.
Hmm beam in my eye but see splinter in yours
Also what the heck is masculine spirituality? 😂
😂😂😂😂😂 not being disrespectful 🎉Patriarchy the answer to all man's mistakes. Like Noah forgot one nail...😮😮😮😮
That should have been unpacked more... there wasn't enough time for that to be unpacked. If man is made in the image of God... Then woman is made in the image of... Goddess. But because we don't have a Goddess in the forefront... it often hard to find models for feminine characteristics. Some may say those characteristics are nurturance, creation, teaching, etc....
I guess the answer to that depends upon 1) whether you believe binary gender is eternal and 2) how far you are willing to imagine God in the image of humanity. The Hebrew Scriptures say that God created man in his own image and that male and female are manifestations of that image. But the Hebrews believed that although God is referred to in the Hebrew Bible, the Torah, and the Prophets with masculine imagery and grammatical forms, traditional Jewish philosophy does not attribute gender to God. Gendered language in Jewish literature and mystical writing was never understood by Jews to imply that God is gender-specific. Building selectively on the old theological foundation, Joseph Smith veered away from it and developed a fully anthropomorphic view of God, using the created (humankind) to define the Creator. In this view if God is male then there must be Goddess who is female. Yet apart from a few confidences shared with his spiritual wives, Smith never bothered to develop a theology of the Heavenly Mother, leaving a vacuum.
No modern prophet has dared to receive revelation that might fill that vacuum, abandoning Mormon women to an anthropomorphized male Deity as their spiritual role model. How far should this anthropomorphic model go? Do we infer that just as mortal men and women have emotional differences that cause their spirituality to be manifest in different ways, so too do Father and Mother God have differences that complement and complete the Divine Image? Or is there no spiritual dimorphism at all between Heavenly Father and Mother - just different celestial bodies with different genitalia? If the latter is true where does that leave the eternal purpose of gender in non-reproductive beings? What would be the point of unmarried male or female "servants" in the afterlife? In their case gender would only be a relic of mortality, and if there is no use for it, gender is not likely to be the universal and eternal condition for humanity that we imagine.
My view is that both Mormon theology and traditional Hebrew theology have failed women in significant ways. There is not space to elaborate on that idea here, but suffice it to note that the creation story in Genesis in addition to the one the Book of Moses seem to have it backwards. In reality the genesis of every human being in utero would seem to tell a very different story about our Creator's actual starting point. It turns out that we all begin life as a single cell that is female - an X chromosome - with which another X or a Y may combine to produce gendered individuals. Why then should it be Adam who was created first and Eve elaborated from one of his ribs? This theological incongruity is more evidence that where men and women are concerned, "masculine spirituality" tends to play up its superiority at the expense of its feminine counterpart.
The episode comes across as if y’all are making fun of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! I am GLAD that the church stood up against this movie and the tv show recently! It doesn’t represent the ppl of this church! It represents a prideful few.
There's a lot of people that call themselves LDS or pretend to be so they can critique the church and have credibility... shameful
Jessica why would you EVER make a snide comment about a sign or a token?! Do you not see how that came across?? Are you an ex-mo?
Probably
Weird, also considering how young she appears to be.
Another ckevercway to attack not just religion, but specifically Christianity. Another anti- mormon film. I find it unfortunate that people that call themselves Christians would gind yhis to be anything remotely close to being a good movie.
Don't do horror movies but ❤d Alfred Hitchcock. 😮😮😮😮hmm hated Psycho. Ok am Gemini.sue me. Point I meant to make was as convert alwayd felt if you believe in creator must have adversary.😮😮😮