I use the analogy that one d and d is basically turning the game into windows or photoshop. It will be a perpetual subscription edition that is updated periodically. It will probably also have micro transactions for things like cosmetic upgrades. Somehow there will be a battlepass. I'm not really focused on the rules updates. I think the talk of the game being undermonetized is the real canary in the coalmine. A lot of other entertainment industries have already done this.
Your right I do believe this will end up ruining D&D beyond. From a business stand point yes it is under monetized. Though that has never been it’s model or reasoning for success. I will be happy sticking to the medium I use for D&D which will probably be against this for sometime.
AD&D had some great high level modules for their campaign settings! The proper High Level adventure is extra dimensional, where many spells don't work the same, summons don't work, weapons lose +'s and Clerics have limited connections to their gods!
That’s how space is supposed to work. Like spell jammer is supposed to rock out with that stuff. I really like that a lot. Travel to a distant world lose connection to your god. Try to connect with some other planer entity to make that contact or help to restore your power.
10:25 - Having been in several high (15th+) and epic (around 30th or so) games in the 3.5 era, I find the pure allergy to high-level play that everyone seemingly has to be super frustrating. Those are the levels where you can go nuts, both as a player and as a GM, and they're so damned FUN. I have significantly less experience with 5E (highest level char I've played in that was 10th, and I've never run that game), so I'm sure that it has some unique issues when compared with 3.x/PF1E, but the sentiments against high/epic level seem to be the same ones that I always hear.
It’s what the community wants. I really do believe having a module that lays it out will break that barrier and once people see it tangibly it will open doors.
That's interesting because I usually hear the opposite; I'm a (ex) player and DM for 5e, and high level play, as much fun as it could be, it just feels... well boring to play and frustrating to run is the quick and dirty description I would give. There's little to no support for it, even less so than the rest of the game, so while it CAN be tons of fun (my first PC was a 15th level half-elf Dragonic Sorcerer for a 14 hour one shot with 25 people), it can be an absolute bear of a task to try and pull off
There is a reason people don't get to level 20 and it's because it takes a long time. I had a pretty consistent group and our 1-11 campaign took around a year to complete. If you want a level 20 campaign you gotta start at level 13 or something. The range of levels give options and its up to us to use them. If you want level 20 and high power you have that option but you also have the option for level 1 low power. I imagine their are less level 20 campaigns probably cause most people want to play levels 5-10. At the end of the day they are a business and are gonna make things they know will sell.
You are correct. Your analysis is very accurate I once played lost mines and it took us about a year. We did like everything and caused a lot of trouble lol but yes it can be time consuming. Starting at higher levels is fine when I played to level 20 we started at 5 and it took about 1 year and 11 months. It was a commitment yes but it was so worth it.
@@TheSinisterheroes a 2 year campaign sounds amazing its so hard to find a group to commit to that. Ours was curse of strahd, I had fun with that one cause intentionally gave they players game breaking abilities they got from pacts with barovias dark powers. And upgraded strahd to an op vampire lord surrounded by his circle of full vampire wives. They might as well have been level 20. That was easily my favorite campaign.
There are third party high level campaigns and modules that are pretty cool. Just have to search for them. I think there are so many modules etc that are early to mid game because that's how 5e is made. You get your prestige class at level 3 instead of working to become that class by multiclassing, or building a character for a certain role within it class with feats etc, to meet the requirements like that had in 3rd and 3.5. Also, I'm guessing that they expect most people to come up with a story of their own that meshes the char backgrounds etc? So that level 20 final boss might be the hidden king of whispers (some lichen or very powerful spirit) and not the giants and orcs you've been waging war on since level 1. There are a few high end third party ones that I have seen as well but have not looking into them myself yet.
Also, paizo the pathfinder company is also going to make their campaigns and modules for 5e as all from what I have seen and heard. Which if you have never looked into pathfinder a lot of their modules/campaigns go from 1 to 20 and are reallllly good
Path finder has a long history and from what I know it has been pretty cool all around. I would definitely be into that. To circle back onto the third party stuff I feel like most people stay pretty far away from it for fear of it just being totally unbalanced, or having so much new content that it might deter some people, unless there familiar with it like the dungeon dudes and drakkenheim, or critical role and Alexandria.
@@TheSinisterheroes which is odd cause most third party stuff I assume starts off as homebrew then gets published somewhere. In the end that's mostly how your high end game play should be though is homebrew
You are right it dose hear everything high level to become homebrew. It’s a really good observation. I just know I loved that experience, I just wish it was easier to have other people feel that
Let me just introduce myself right quick 🤣😂🤣. I think of D&D a lot like going to the dentist. You go and you get told how filthy you are and then you endure pain and leave feeling really great about yourself……. I like my DM’s to hurt and punish all the people close to my character and have combats that bring me to the brink of death. So yes😂🤣😂
The problem is this is all unearthed arcana at this point. It could all change. Though I will most likely give it a shot. Also if it’s backwards compatible is it really not 5e? I guess that will come down to the changes. As I believe it to be just a patch.
@@TheSinisterheroes you are pretty on point with all of it. From a dm stand point i don’t get to use 2/3 of the monsters released in 5e because there is only one module that actually goes high enough to use em and its very much locked in the encounters after 15th level so even then I can’t use em without changing the tail end of the module drastically.
I used to love D&D. I hate it now. I got rid of my books and went to a different system. I couldn't play the character I wanted to play in D&D. The lack of people willing to try something new is horrifying. If I wanted to play Frodo in Lord of the Rings, I would. If I wanted to copy Critical Role down to the characters, I would. That's not who I am, nor is it something I find fun. I like new and interesting characters being friends on an adventure.
It sucks that it got so unbearable for you, it is trying when people aren’t willing to at least try something new. What system did you go to ? Are you enjoying it ?
@@TheSinisterheroes I play GURPS. I really enjoy it. I have also played Rifts, Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, Fate, and other games. I like Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e, but find the same issues as D&D.
The reason why WotC will ‘maybe’ never make a lvl 20 campaign, is because around 2013, WotC did a survey asking players how many times they had reached level 15 or greater, and other such questions to that effect and they found that most campaign petered out by level 13, and the sweet spot was levels 7-10. Plus, this is D&D, you don’t need an official campaign module, a DM should be creating their own. I’ve been DM/GM for +20 years and I think the prefab campaigns usually are just full of wasted filler and not enough substance. Anything you create with your imagination will be infinitely better, I have faith in you.
Credit to you man 20+ !!!! Your experience probably make’s creating a high level campaign pretty easy. Which I imagine makes your players pretty excited. The questionnaire you mentioned I think is skewed. Simply because all the modules released usually end around 11-13. That being said yes DM’s with experience even 1/4 of yours can absolutely in my mind make a high level campaign. A lot of DM’s I speak to don’t want to even attempt it because they fear balancing issues. Killing pc’s all the time. How to give out magic items to compensate at that level. They don’t want pc’s to be that strong. I really feel so much of that would be set to rest if they had a module that really outlined that. Seeing it spelled out once in an outline, that also explains how the world would see characters at that level would really help out a lot. Don’t get me wrong high level dosent mean running from 1-20 it can start at 15 or what ever.
@@TheSinisterheroes Matt Colville, of MCDM renown, has a great and I mean GREAT, series on his channel (the Matt Colville one and not the MCDM one) called: Running the Game, which is an incredible tool for newer and middle-experienced GM's and old farts like me alike. I hear you about the lack of official high-level campaigns. They tried that when I was a kid, with the Bloodstone Path box set (Ad&D Forgotten Realms, but we played it in 2e) written by the legendary Douglas Niles, it took characters starting at level 15 to 25, its an incredibly difficult campaign, my group back then got through the first two modules and then I moved (army brat life), but I do know that by the end of the campaign in the last of the four modules, The Bloodstone Throne, you actually face off against Orcus, an Evil god. The problem was it wasn't a big seller. Sadly, I seriously doubt WotC will ever create a Campaign like that again, but it would be easy for anyone to just adapt the encounters (monsters and villains) from 2e to 5e stats by just using the monster manual. The campaign is trully EPIC and really well written. I'm sure you can get PDF's for cheap on DMSguild of it or even buy original copies from online stores like NobleKnight.com. Maybe you could do an episode on converting and running that campaign for 5e. Good luck friend and happy new year.
@@TheSinisterheroes Also, I know Pathfinder does high-level adventures, once again, you could convert the encounters to 5e stats. Its something... until WotC makes their own high level adventures/campaigns.
@@gonzo529 thank you so much and happy new year to you as!!!!! all the best for you and yours. maybe i will look into that sounds like something id love!!!
@@gonzo529 pathfinder i have to imagine is real easy to convert from 5e. that is a good strong point. though it may help me i am hoping that wotc dose try and help out alot of us out there.
A patch is much better then a new edition. 5e is great and this is just ment to improve on a great framework. You also don't need to buff monsters is you buff classes. Class power level remains close to the same, so far weak things are getting buffed and strong things getting nerfed. If rangers are weaker then the other classes it doesn't mater if you buff them as long as they aren't stronger then the classes people actually play.
Exactly!!!! It’s just balancing everything. Making all the classes get there subclass abilities at 3 making the ranger more in league with fighters and paladins. It really would be marketed better if they implemented it as a revision or a patch as opposed to one D&D.
D&D is that game that only still exists because of marketing...like Magic the Gathering, VASTLY superior systems have come and gone while unimaginative and lazy fans prop up the inferior game because the company told them to.
Which system do you prefer? I won’t lie D&D has a lot of different ventures out in the world. The books the video games, even the terrible movies. Those ventures definitely helped to keep them relevant, and with critical role it has seen a massive jump.
But marketing is everything to get new players, if you are the hardcore rpg enjoyer that it's on the lookout for other systems and the rest of the group like D&D or are mostly there to play with friends the task to learn and try a new system they never heard off is a stiff hill to climb. Unless you are the DM and you are fine with running the game without your player knowing the rules it's not laziness
Could D&D market better, absolutely. That’s a given the issue I believe we’re facing is what it will look like with micro transactions and battle pass like set ups. In truth it’s a board game really, so how can you accomplish that? I am hopping what ever it is isn’t as bad as I fear.
@@TheSinisterheroes Personally I don't believe they are going to make something like that because, as you said, is a TTRPG and you can't make a battlepass for a board game. The more probable thing they are going to do is just to treat D&D as an IP like DC and Marvel with their superheros, and not like just a tabletop game.
I’d be down for a D&D Netflix series! Or more movies or games. If they threw out a new D&D mmo I’d be down. I already have early access Baldurs gate 3 LETS GO!!!!
I use the analogy that one d and d is basically turning the game into windows or photoshop. It will be a perpetual subscription edition that is updated periodically. It will probably also have micro transactions for things like cosmetic upgrades. Somehow there will be a battlepass. I'm not really focused on the rules updates. I think the talk of the game being undermonetized is the real canary in the coalmine. A lot of other entertainment industries have already done this.
Your right I do believe this will end up ruining D&D beyond. From a business stand point yes it is under monetized. Though that has never been it’s model or reasoning for success. I will be happy sticking to the medium I use for D&D which will probably be against this for sometime.
I was really hoping spalljammer was going to be the high-level campaign I've been waiting for
I have been hoping for a high level campaign since before Tasha’s
I'm seeing 999 subscribers right now, lol! COME ON 1,000!
I have been screaming all day !!!!!
What was it like for you when you were here?
@@TheSinisterheroes I was checking it like every 10 minutes, haha
If there is one thing fans can agree on, it is how much we hate the thing that we love.
🤣😂🤣
Great points and words at the end!
Thanks for sticking through till the ends that really means a lot to us
I like the ole grognard style over the theater kid style
I can see that.
AD&D had some great high level modules for their campaign settings!
The proper High Level adventure is extra dimensional, where many spells don't work the same, summons don't work, weapons lose +'s and Clerics have limited connections to their gods!
That’s how space is supposed to work. Like spell jammer is supposed to rock out with that stuff. I really like that a lot. Travel to a distant world lose connection to your god. Try to connect with some other planer entity to make that contact or help to restore your power.
10:25 - Having been in several high (15th+) and epic (around 30th or so) games in the 3.5 era, I find the pure allergy to high-level play that everyone seemingly has to be super frustrating. Those are the levels where you can go nuts, both as a player and as a GM, and they're so damned FUN. I have significantly less experience with 5E (highest level char I've played in that was 10th, and I've never run that game), so I'm sure that it has some unique issues when compared with 3.x/PF1E, but the sentiments against high/epic level seem to be the same ones that I always hear.
It’s what the community wants. I really do believe having a module that lays it out will break that barrier and once people see it tangibly it will open doors.
That’s awesome that you have had that experience I only got to play high level once and I love it
That's interesting because I usually hear the opposite; I'm a (ex) player and DM for 5e, and high level play, as much fun as it could be, it just feels... well boring to play and frustrating to run is the quick and dirty description I would give. There's little to no support for it, even less so than the rest of the game, so while it CAN be tons of fun (my first PC was a 15th level half-elf Dragonic Sorcerer for a 14 hour one shot with 25 people), it can be an absolute bear of a task to try and pull off
That’s kinda my point. If you had a few supports for high level combat it would be easier and less of a an endeavor.
There is a reason people don't get to level 20 and it's because it takes a long time.
I had a pretty consistent group and our 1-11 campaign took around a year to complete.
If you want a level 20 campaign you gotta start at level 13 or something.
The range of levels give options and its up to us to use them. If you want level 20 and high power you have that option but you also have the option for level 1 low power.
I imagine their are less level 20 campaigns probably cause most people want to play levels 5-10.
At the end of the day they are a business and are gonna make things they know will sell.
You are correct. Your analysis is very accurate I once played lost mines and it took us about a year. We did like everything and caused a lot of trouble lol but yes it can be time consuming. Starting at higher levels is fine when I played to level 20 we started at 5 and it took about 1 year and 11 months. It was a commitment yes but it was so worth it.
@@TheSinisterheroes a 2 year campaign sounds amazing its so hard to find a group to commit to that.
Ours was curse of strahd, I had fun with that one cause intentionally gave they players game breaking abilities they got from pacts with barovias dark powers.
And upgraded strahd to an op vampire lord surrounded by his circle of full vampire wives.
They might as well have been level 20.
That was easily my favorite campaign.
Easily Strahd could of been a level 20 end boss
There are third party high level campaigns and modules that are pretty cool. Just have to search for them. I think there are so many modules etc that are early to mid game because that's how 5e is made. You get your prestige class at level 3 instead of working to become that class by multiclassing, or building a character for a certain role within it class with feats etc, to meet the requirements like that had in 3rd and 3.5.
Also, I'm guessing that they expect most people to come up with a story of their own that meshes the char backgrounds etc? So that level 20 final boss might be the hidden king of whispers (some lichen or very powerful spirit) and not the giants and orcs you've been waging war on since level 1.
There are a few high end third party ones that I have seen as well but have not looking into them myself yet.
Also, paizo the pathfinder company is also going to make their campaigns and modules for 5e as all from what I have seen and heard. Which if you have never looked into pathfinder a lot of their modules/campaigns go from 1 to 20 and are reallllly good
Path finder has a long history and from what I know it has been pretty cool all around. I would definitely be into that.
To circle back onto the third party stuff I feel like most people stay pretty far away from it for fear of it just being totally unbalanced, or having so much new content that it might deter some people, unless there familiar with it like the dungeon dudes and drakkenheim, or critical role and Alexandria.
@@TheSinisterheroes which is odd cause most third party stuff I assume starts off as homebrew then gets published somewhere. In the end that's mostly how your high end game play should be though is homebrew
You are right it dose hear everything high level to become homebrew. It’s a really good observation. I just know I loved that experience, I just wish it was easier to have other people feel that
The ranger in the core book is unplayable unless you're a masochist.
Let me just introduce myself right quick 🤣😂🤣. I think of D&D a lot like going to the dentist. You go and you get told how filthy you are and then you endure pain and leave feeling really great about yourself……. I like my DM’s to hurt and punish all the people close to my character and have combats that bring me to the brink of death. So yes😂🤣😂
I see it as a better Eldritch Knight.
1D&D is one o the reasons why my group is moving to the TinyD6 system & to CoC
Coc??
@@TheSinisterheroes Call of Cthulhu. we ain't gutter-minded here
I promise I just had no idea that was the abbreviation
I’m sticking to 5e I have no plan on switching to oned&d
The problem is this is all unearthed arcana at this point. It could all change. Though I will most likely give it a shot. Also if it’s backwards compatible is it really not 5e? I guess that will come down to the changes. As I believe it to be just a patch.
Ive been waiting for this video
LOL am I wrong ?
Im still watching the video
@@TheSinisterheroes you are pretty on point with all of it. From a dm stand point i don’t get to use 2/3 of the monsters released in 5e because there is only one module that actually goes high enough to use em and its very much locked in the encounters after 15th level so even then I can’t use em without changing the tail end of the module drastically.
One dnd is just patch notes that seem to be testing random concepts.
Yes it’s just an attempt to make a big patch!
You are completely wrong! It is totally another addition.
Am I? I really don’t get that feeling. If I am wrong I am happy to admit it
I used to love D&D. I hate it now. I got rid of my books and went to a different system. I couldn't play the character I wanted to play in D&D. The lack of people willing to try something new is horrifying. If I wanted to play Frodo in Lord of the Rings, I would. If I wanted to copy Critical Role down to the characters, I would. That's not who I am, nor is it something I find fun. I like new and interesting characters being friends on an adventure.
It sucks that it got so unbearable for you, it is trying when people aren’t willing to at least try something new. What system did you go to ? Are you enjoying it ?
@@TheSinisterheroes I play GURPS. I really enjoy it. I have also played Rifts, Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, Fate, and other games. I like Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e, but find the same issues as D&D.
I am not to familiar with the abbreviation what’s is GURPS? The others I have heard of.
@@TheSinisterheroes Generic Universal Role Playing System by Steve Jackson Games.
Honestly I have never heard of it
The reason why WotC will ‘maybe’ never make a lvl 20 campaign, is because around 2013, WotC did a survey asking players how many times they had reached level 15 or greater, and other such questions to that effect and they found that most campaign petered out by level 13, and the sweet spot was levels 7-10. Plus, this is D&D, you don’t need an official campaign module, a DM should be creating their own. I’ve been DM/GM for +20 years and I think the prefab campaigns usually are just full of wasted filler and not enough substance. Anything you create with your imagination will be infinitely better, I have faith in you.
Credit to you man 20+ !!!! Your experience probably make’s creating a high level campaign pretty easy. Which I imagine makes your players pretty excited.
The questionnaire you mentioned I think is skewed. Simply because all the modules released usually end around 11-13.
That being said yes DM’s with experience even 1/4 of yours can absolutely in my mind make a high level campaign. A lot of DM’s I speak to don’t want to even attempt it because they fear balancing issues. Killing pc’s all the time. How to give out magic items to compensate at that level. They don’t want pc’s to be that strong.
I really feel so much of that would be set to rest if they had a module that really outlined that. Seeing it spelled out once in an outline, that also explains how the world would see characters at that level would really help out a lot.
Don’t get me wrong high level dosent mean running from 1-20 it can start at 15 or what ever.
@@TheSinisterheroes Matt Colville, of MCDM renown, has a great and I mean GREAT, series on his channel (the Matt Colville one and not the MCDM one) called: Running the Game, which is an incredible tool for newer and middle-experienced GM's and old farts like me alike. I hear you about the lack of official high-level campaigns. They tried that when I was a kid, with the Bloodstone Path box set (Ad&D Forgotten Realms, but we played it in 2e) written by the legendary Douglas Niles, it took characters starting at level 15 to 25, its an incredibly difficult campaign, my group back then got through the first two modules and then I moved (army brat life), but I do know that by the end of the campaign in the last of the four modules, The Bloodstone Throne, you actually face off against Orcus, an Evil god. The problem was it wasn't a big seller. Sadly, I seriously doubt WotC will ever create a Campaign like that again, but it would be easy for anyone to just adapt the encounters (monsters and villains) from 2e to 5e stats by just using the monster manual. The campaign is trully EPIC and really well written. I'm sure you can get PDF's for cheap on DMSguild of it or even buy original copies from online stores like NobleKnight.com. Maybe you could do an episode on converting and running that campaign for 5e. Good luck friend and happy new year.
@@TheSinisterheroes Also, I know Pathfinder does high-level adventures, once again, you could convert the encounters to 5e stats. Its something... until WotC makes their own high level adventures/campaigns.
@@gonzo529 thank you so much and happy new year to you as!!!!! all the best for you and yours. maybe i will look into that sounds like something id love!!!
@@gonzo529 pathfinder i have to imagine is real easy to convert from 5e. that is a good strong point. though it may help me i am hoping that wotc dose try and help out alot of us out there.
A patch is much better then a new edition.
5e is great and this is just ment to improve on a great framework.
You also don't need to buff monsters is you buff classes.
Class power level remains close to the same, so far weak things are getting buffed and strong things getting nerfed.
If rangers are weaker then the other classes it doesn't mater if you buff them as long as they aren't stronger then the classes people actually play.
Exactly!!!! It’s just balancing everything. Making all the classes get there subclass abilities at 3 making the ranger more in league with fighters and paladins.
It really would be marketed better if they implemented it as a revision or a patch as opposed to one D&D.
I'd rather play 1st edition D&D then 1 D&D.
Oooh strong words
D&D is that game that only still exists because of marketing...like Magic the Gathering, VASTLY superior systems have come and gone while unimaginative and lazy fans prop up the inferior game because the company told them to.
Which system do you prefer? I won’t lie D&D has a lot of different ventures out in the world. The books the video games, even the terrible movies. Those ventures definitely helped to keep them relevant, and with critical role it has seen a massive jump.
But marketing is everything to get new players, if you are the hardcore rpg enjoyer that it's on the lookout for other systems and the rest of the group like D&D or are mostly there to play with friends the task to learn and try a new system they never heard off is a stiff hill to climb.
Unless you are the DM and you are fine with running the game without your player knowing the rules it's not laziness
Could D&D market better, absolutely. That’s a given the issue I believe we’re facing is what it will look like with micro transactions and battle pass like set ups. In truth it’s a board game really, so how can you accomplish that? I am hopping what ever it is isn’t as bad as I fear.
@@TheSinisterheroes Personally I don't believe they are going to make something like that because, as you said, is a TTRPG and you can't make a battlepass for a board game.
The more probable thing they are going to do is just to treat D&D as an IP like DC and Marvel with their superheros, and not like just a tabletop game.
I’d be down for a D&D Netflix series! Or more movies or games. If they threw out a new D&D mmo I’d be down. I already have early access Baldurs gate 3 LETS GO!!!!