I think you should have the SSD in the gateway. I would suggest maybe trying to find a way to get around that “bottleneck” so that it does what’s intended. I did notice that it was a little snappy with loading using the SSD. Maybe you should try to play some games on it and do a comparison from the old HDD to what it will do on the SSD. My question is, would XP behave the same way? Or it is all down to the hardware itself?
"Your virus protection is 7733 days old. You may not be protected against newly discovered viruses" I feel like this was the same pop up that we all got at the beginning of 2020.
I think those benchmarks are pretty bad even without DMA. I did a new install on my SSD and I ran DM prior to enabling DMA to see what the performance is. I was getting 7-8 MB/s before I even enabled DMA
A few other things to try which can be set in some BIOS menus are: - 32bit Transfer Mode. - IDE Prefetch Mode - IDE HDD Block Mode - PCI IDE Bus Mastering - PCI Delay Transaction Looks like the the IDE cable is a 40 conductor in this video. An 80 conductor should improve signal quality and allow the interface to use modes above UDMA 2 if supported.
3.3MB/s is an indicator that the drives are only running in Pio Mode 0, which is the maximum transfer rate for this mode. Either bios problem that wrongly addresses these drives, or chipset driver installed by gateway has some bug.
Try benchmarking again using an 80-pin IDE cable, having the SSD plugged in by itself as the only drive on the cable, and making sure in Windows hardware manager, system BIOS, etc., that the fastest possible transfer mode (probably DMA) is set for the IDE controller.
I was thinking about the same when I see the figures that crystal thing gives. DMA is probably not ticked in proprieties of the sdd of the device manager.
@@RubberGopher i810 chipset have only ATA66. Even then will benefit from enabling DMA and maybe using a 80 wires cable. The default mode is PIO4 for IDE in Win9x, DMA was optional to activate. MJD said that it was single drive, the optical drive also, so one drive/channel.
Have you people thought about what a true hero the spinning drive in the 5$ W98 PC is? The amount of software and complete OS installation thrown at it these last years on this channel is certainly no slouch, and it was already an old part to begin with! It deserves a memorial (as well as being used somehow as long as it will endure).
@@Entrepid83 Yes, it did, and I've done the same thing myself with SSDs a few times, I was just pointing out that one of the adapters would have made for a better permanent solution, since Michael made a point of stating how the SSD didn't fit correctly.
Even without the proper adapter you can still drill a few holes in the sheet metal. Just be sure not to do this when hardware is installed and to vacuum it after. You can probably guess how I know hidden metal particles can cause problems.
You really should be getting higher transfer rates. Make sure DMA is enabled in Windows or else you're stuck with PIO transfer rates. And if both motherboard and hard disk support ATA 66 or higher, you need an 80 pin cable to make it work.
The low speed could be caused by DMA not being enable. I would check and see if the newest/latest chipset drivers are installed first , especially for the IDE Controller. Then make sure DMA is enabled in the BIOS and Driver. PhilsComputerLab has a video called --> How to enable DMA mode in Windows 95 or 98.
Make sure you religiously backup your WD Blue ssd. The 512GB one I bought for my laptop bricked itself with absolutely no warning signs. Could never do a data recovery on it since it became aabsolutely undetectable. Replaced it with a Samsung 1TB.
Probably. Intel had chipset drivers for win98 I think ... 6.3 something. There are drivers for NT4 (intel application accelerator) that I used to install and that would enable dma under NT4, that would make the system to load a lot faster. I also think it's just a matter of thinking DMA under the hdd's properties, win9x wouldn't enable it by default.
Intel810 has ata 100 but you are using 40pin ata33 cable and it limits performance. On ata 100 there should be a diffirence, access time of ssd make a lot, but with such tranfers its totally limited. Edit : btw my 32MB sdcard @SD to IDE has transfers around 25MB/s and windows 98 and XP are much more reponsive and load faster (xp more) if I compare to propably the same 80GB seagate. Windows 10 could not boot on W98 pc cause propably you was using uefi boot, gpt partition table etc :)
@@pawe3839 Yep. 80 wire cable will give more performance. Even so, the 40 wire cable should allow udma2 and give better performance than the figures shown.
@@pawe3839 Windows 10 (even 32-bit) won’t boot on anything that doesn’t support the NX/XD bit. So that excludes anything older than (some) Prescott Pentium 4s and Athlon 64s.
Pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. A single drive on a single ide channel will be faster than any pci card version. These cards were meant to add extra storage to a maxed out machine.
Things to speed up the drive, make sure DMA is enabled in the disk controller in device manager, move to a 80 wire IDE cable or just find a PCI SATA card. Those are your only options really.
@@stonent pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. Pcie is not pci.
@@LeoInterVir I think you are repeating facts without actually absorbing the information here. You see how your second comment contradicts your first after stonent reminds you of how you're wrong. if you don't know what you talking about then DON'T
Good video! The bottleneck might be in the IDE cable, which looks like a 40-conductor. Have you tried an 80-conductor (still 40 pin) ribbon cable? I found myself using an old 40-conductor where an 80-conductor was supported, and learned the 80-conductor allows the motherboard to use better protocols for communicating to/from disks. It went from something like ATA/66 to ATA/166 protocol, or something along those lines. Throughput increased significantly without changing any disks
I do actually still have a Windows 98 PC, its actually a Toshiba Satellite 330cds from 1998. Still works fine today after almost 23 years and with its original 4 gb hard drive.
What I absolutely enjoy about your videos is whenever there's a time lapse. The music definitely reminds me of Boneworks because of how it's played. As much as I enjoy Murphy's Law bombing your attempts the time lapse is just as amazing.
@Robert Pirlot Uh.. I'm fully aware of 2.5 inch to 3.5 inch adapters. Just because it isn't mentioned in the video doesn't mean I don't know about it. Don't jump to conclusions.
Up to a hypothetical 133MB/s (shared across all PCI devices). But I am not aware of any PCI storage devices, so the best you could hope for would be a PCI PATA controller with a higher throughput than the motherboard interface. Not really worth it I would say.
9:44 woah that Linux installation is pretty good for formatting drives I just boot my computer from the windows 7 setup dvd and format it from there lol
Do you have the UltraDMA patch installed? That could be what's holding back performance both on the HDD and the SSD. Plus, your IDE cable seems to be 40-pin 40-wire, not 40-pin 80-wire. That could also be at play here? Cheers!
80-wire matters for anything at or above ATA/66 (UDMA/66). But ie found best results using the 80-wire with any STATA to IDE adapter.. so UDMA/33 & slower is fine for 40-wire
@@BrianMartin2007 And if you think about it, old hard drives used to run up against the rotational speed of the platters and the speed of movement of the heads and the read-write speed of the sector. SSD-flash drives will still have higher speed and read speed will be linear throughout the entire space. and yes - the hard drive will "rest" on the cable transmission speed, but still it will be much higher than the one that the hard drive itself gave
did you enable DMA in the device manager? that made a huge difference back in the day on 9x machines when it came to drive transfer speeds and cpu utilization when hitting the drive
Did you check the "DMA" setting in the device manager->disk drives->generic ide disk blah blah. Coincidentally I installed Windows 98 on an old computer on Saturday and as I was slowly copying some large files to the hard disk, I suddenly remembered the DMA setting was always off by default and it always made an insanely big difference in speed when I switched it on.
YES MJD! *THIS* is THE VIDEO I've been waiting for, _for actual years_ to be done with this PC. Biggups to you! 👍😬 EDIT: What to do next with the SSD? Well, of course the answer is --> Install *Windows 95* on the SSD! [It _can_ be done, and would make for a great video!]
I think I recognize you from Drauga1's channel. Are you frequently a top commenter on his videos or do I recognize you from his Windows 9x multiboot stream chat? It could very well be both, either way it's great to see a fellow Druaga1 viewer, I hope you have a great day!
I got the Dell Optiplex 170L for 5$. "The 5$ Windows XP PC". Also it runs Windows 7 and last Ubuntu 32 bit releases very nicely. Now it has Android x86 KitKat
Back in the early 2000, i was repairing computers at our school and at the part of the restart process, I saw a ghost lady at the reflection in the monitor standing behind my back and hair at the back of my started to rise. I quickly ran outside and meet up with other staff and when we went back the E-library was so cold. Never went there at night. Great video dude! Made me remember my tech service days.
@@santelite5935 I've had an OCZ and two Kingston SSDs fail. I've had one Seagate HDD fail. The SSDs failed in my workstation with very high read/write cycles. OCZ was circa 2012, Kingstons were both in the last 4 years. They weren't used for passive storage which lead to their failure. Seagate HDD failure was late 90's and never bought one again, never had a WD HDD fail to date. That was in a "normal" desktop PC.
@@kevin46942 I'm sorry if you think what I've experienced in the real world is impossible, but like I mentioned, I've had three SSDs fail since I started using them and only one HDD. I'm a computer systems engineer, not a "noob".
Make sure you've selected the DMA check box on the hard drive in device manager, and check the performance tab in the system control panel to enable 32bit disk access and 32bit file access. Then re-run the test. It will certainly be faster. The Intel 810 chip supports UDMA 33 or 66 depending on the implementation Gateway went with.
Michael, have you enabled Ultra DMA on the IDE controller's settings? AFAIK, the Windows 98's default setting for IDE cards is to use Programmed I/O, which uses the CPU to control all the I/O operations. In this case, the CPU can be the real bottleneck.
(if no or no more slots for 2.5 ssd available) Just put the drive vertical, draw a marker on straight where the holes are, measure distance between holes and mark same distance between inital mark and measured distance for each hole, drill and vile for best method. (use anti-statics between hole and screw ofc) Use double sided tape for the lazy way more accessible if you dont have anitstatics for case. Mash it anywhere for the extreme lazy way I use all, depending on user input ':)
The cables you used seemed to be UDMA66 only.. I can be wrong, but look for the 80wire ones, and also you can enable UltraDMA mode in windows 98 which is not the default, philllabs did a video with ssd and was having a great performance with win98 overthere..
Heya, nice demonstration of what's possible nowadays, if not just using CF cards (but those won't be accessible in some years I guess, photographers have like CD express and SD now I think, if not internal UFS). It's enchanting to see good old systems being used again. You have a very calm and clear voice, good to hear. Some hints/questions: - I won't pull off the protective cover of the adapter. If the glue may get loose, it can destroy the controller, maybe even the SSD in some years. I'd have tried a simple plastics strap. - In GPartEd you don't even need to delete the partitions, if just making a new MBR partition table layout. This will overwrite the partition table anyways. Unformat and Data Rescue 3 can still recover files. - I think the BIOS limit for late 9x machines is 128 GiB / 137 GB. Some older BIOS had like 32 GiB limits (there's f.e. late IDE drives with 32 GiB jumpers). Even older ones like 512 MiB, but we could partition drives bigger in those, some did use Seagate Tools or similar back then with 1.2 GiB. - Btw., I found out that f.e. Pentium III-M 1200, Core2Duo U7600 and Core i7-9xxM laptops all can't boot Ventoy with no extra partition, if using a 160 GB HDD or 256 GB Samsung FIT USB 3.0 stick. But it can, if you add a partition at 128 GiB / 137 GB position using the Ventoy tool. The Ventoy boot partition is in the middle. If old PCs can't boot from USB, then Plop Boot Manager booted from 1st or 2nd? stage boot from Floppy/CD/PCI ROM, may be able to boot the old PC via USB from 2nd? or 3rd boot stage. This would be worth a try. I won't flash Plop into my PCI cards ROMs, tho, may be too risky. But Pentium III and 4 mobile hardware I could boot from USB using the Plop boot CD. It doesn't always work, but sometimes. Another cool thing with that data partition is, I put some portable Linux AppImage/Flatpak like new Firefox version or OpenRA and Windows PortableApps and extracted folders like Lemmings95 onto it, so any live distro can use those instantly from Linux live or HBCD, Strelec live and so on. UBCD, HBCD and Ventoy changed my life like VMs did. Those tools made things so much easier. - I found a minimal 12 MB W98 live iso on archive org, but haven't tried to alter it adding some apps and games. It would be very interesting, because anything I knew of earlier was Linux and Win PE live based and newer. Drivers will miss ofc., but for some 2D games it's enough I think. - What we always have donewas to copy the W98 CD's content to the disk to make later installation of drivers way faster and never need the CD again. You could copy it even before the setup to save some time. - Which system is this PC using? I remember we had like 10 MB/s back then w/ AMD K6-2/III? 380 and Pentium III 700 and 1000B, later 30 MB/s with a faster HDD and I think UDMA33. - Is this due to not using DMA mode? You have to enable that in Windows to make it wayyy faster, even with HDDs. Expect like 10 or 30 MB/s at least. This 850 EVO SSD can reach 30 MB/s at 4k in a fast dualcore PC, cheap SSD will reach like 10 MB/s, but still are way faster than HDDs ofc. 2nd thought is to use a 80 pin cable ofc. UDMA66 and later versions were such an improvement back then. - Our AMD K6-2/III? 380 MHz PC needed exactly 5 s to boot W95 and 30 s to boot W98 or 98 SE with I think a 10 MB/s HDD. We thought those 30 s were slowwww. Interestingly W10 is even slower on such an SSD, when disabling the hybrid boot mode (because of file integrity reasons, if it crashes, you won't have access to NTFS and even a 2nd W8.1/10 installation will damage your copied files, if you use hybrid boot mode. That's why I always turn that off and be on the secure side.
Pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. Pcie is not pci. A single drive on a single ide channel will be faster than any pci card version.
@@LeoInterVir And to think we used to do RAID 0 with PCI IDE cards with great effectiveness back in the early 2000's (like the Promise FastTrack 100). PCI bus can handle it. Might get some slow downs if using all 100 megabits (12.5 MegaBytes) of the ethernet, but even then it will be much faster than ATA-33 speeds he is getting now. PCI bus can handle 133MB/s. Looked like an AGP video card, so that shouldn't be an issue. I've had success with PCI SATA RAID cards in comparison to onboard ATA100 IDE on my old Abit KT7-E Athlon machine (I really do miss that awesome old blue motherboard I spent WAY too much time overclocking and modding). This was done in Win98 SE, as I didn't change OS's until I bought XP close to 2003. I highly doubt what he has on the PCI bus would use enough throughput to cause the PCI bus to be slower than an onboard ATA-66 IDE slot.
@@Skligmund I didn't say it wouldn't work or be effective at all. His bad adapter, cable, drive or settings does not change max speeds of pci or ide. Pci slots share bandwidth to the Southbridge. IDE channels go direct to Southbridge. Any on-board audio, networking, or video on older motherboards would have likely shared the pci bus in addition to user add-in cards. The primary purpose of those cards beeing mentioning is to add additional storage or redundancy to a system that is otherwise populated on ide. If speed is wanted then scsi on the motherboard would sure be the fastest.
Using a compact flash card makes way more sense. You can easily remove it from the PC to image it as a backup. You can even mount it for external access.
You may need a sperate UltraATA PCI card, to really get those drives the speed they deserve. I put one in my Powermac G4 (mainly because of its drive size limitation) and it works great. Im pretty sure I saw more of those that supported Windows than mac, so you should be able to find plenty.
Booting off a fresh install on a HDD is going to have all the files in a concentrated and defragmented way. But I imagine the seek times for very spread out/fragmented files on the HDD will start to show much larger differences than on the SSD.
As I have stated and many others, activate DMA, but try it on the harddrive too as that will probably up the speed on the HDD too. And it will reduce the boot time with abou 90% too. Also try a 32 bit Linux like Debian ;)
Черт возьми, прошла целая вечность с тех пор, как я в последний раз использовал windows 95. Спасибо, парень, что вернул старые воспоминания из детства.
Did you activate DMA transfer for the drive? In 9x, you have to do it manually after a fresh installation or when adding a new drive. Look for the checkbox in the drive's properties in Device Manager. It essentially removes the CPU bottleneck from harddisk transfers.
If you benchmark with HDtune you'd see the the "access time" (lag) is near zero on an SSD. It's this "lack of lag" that makes a big difference between an SSD and an HDD. A low buck solution (compared to buying an SSD) is to "short stroke" an HDD with a small partition, this can be measured with HDtune Pro to see the reduction in "access time" (lag) by making a different size small partitions on a HDD.
Recently installed an SD adapter in my free Windows 98 PC. No idea if its any faster since the original HDD didn't work, but its nice being able to easily swap out the card.
Well, if you are low on mounting holes for your SATA SSDs, what I do is just attach the SATA data and power connectors and just keep it inside the case simply. It doesn’t have any moving parts so it’s very safe to keep one like this.
Parted Magic has a secure erase option that's used for SSDs. It's best to wipe the drive this way so it resets the entire drive instead of rewriting over the old data which is what happens when you just deleted the partitions.
3 года назад
That will just short the life of the ssd needlessly
How you mounted the SSD totally reminded me of a 486 PC I installed a 1.2 GB HDD in back in early 1996. It was in a Packard Bell desktop PC that was only meant to have 1 HDD installed in it. I ended up installing the 2nd HDD in it using double sided tape. The 2nd HDD ended up being taped to the top of the PSU. It was janky as heck but it worked like a charm!
the white sitcky thing you removed is there to stop the adapter from possibly touching a 3.5" drive you might have installed and having it short out on the adapter and the hdd when it flops around
Nice! Fyi, there are cheap adapter brackets available to mount these 2,5inch discs on a 3.5 or even 5.25inch slots. Including those kind of top/bottom screws!
Even super old PATA (IDE) UDMA2 (UDMA/33) ports handle 30MB per second just fine, most Pentium 4 boards support even ATA133 (133MB/sec). Hence PATA was never a bottleneck for HDD from that timeframe. Ensure that UDMA is enabled. I use for some Windows 98 Pentium 1 laptop a CF -> IDE adapter and get 25MB/sec average with some old 4GB Sandisk Ultra CF card. It boots up within 3 seconds.
I bought a gateway with the same case in 1999. I was a P3 500mhz with 512MB of ram, 13 GB HDD, and a DVD / CDR drive, my first PC when i was 18, was 1400 bucks then, but came w monitor keyboard mouse, and boston speakers w sub. Man I thought it was awsome back then
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Here's the poll I mentioned towards the end of the video: ruclips.net/user/postUgwwqSBEeQ59RfIvseh4AaABCQ
Hi.
@TurboSoftware ok? we already know
I'm waiting for it to become "Installing life on the 5$ Windows 98 PC"
@TurboSoftware IKR stands for I Know Right
I think you should have the SSD in the gateway. I would suggest maybe trying to find a way to get around that “bottleneck” so that it does what’s intended. I did notice that it was a little snappy with loading using the SSD. Maybe you should try to play some games on it and do a comparison from the old HDD to what it will do on the SSD. My question is, would XP behave the same way? Or it is all down to the hardware itself?
"Your virus protection is 7733 days old. You may not be protected against newly discovered viruses"
I feel like this was the same pop up that we all got at the beginning of 2020.
:D
lol
The virus definitions are roughly more than 21 years old 😂😂 new viruses will not be compatible 😂😂
14:54
When I do have a pc first thing I do is uninstall vira protection and disable uac completely and remove everything from load on startup
Make sure you enable DMA on the SSD in the device manager. That will speed things up considerably
I think those benchmarks are pretty bad even without DMA. I did a new install on my SSD and I ran DM prior to enabling DMA to see what the performance is. I was getting 7-8 MB/s before I even enabled DMA
A few other things to try which can be set in some BIOS menus are:
- 32bit Transfer Mode.
- IDE Prefetch Mode
- IDE HDD Block Mode
- PCI IDE Bus Mastering
- PCI Delay Transaction
Looks like the the IDE cable is a 40 conductor in this video. An 80 conductor should improve signal quality and allow the interface to use modes above UDMA 2 if supported.
Yeah we had like 10 MB/s in our early W9x PCs, later 30 MB/s, using HDDs ofc.
Fun fact: The 5 dollar 98 PC is worth way more than 5 dollars now
Indeed
Yess
6 ?
@Alex Routhorn yea
I want to know how much it is worth, because I have one that I am pretty sure is still in working condition.
3.3MB/s is an indicator that the drives are only running in Pio Mode 0, which is the maximum transfer rate for this mode. Either bios problem that wrongly addresses these drives, or chipset driver installed by gateway has some bug.
Thanks, I was wondering why it was less than 33 MB/s :)
PIO Mode 0 = 3.3MB/sec
PIO Mode 1 = 5.2MB/sec
PIO Mode 2 = 8.3MB/sec
PIO Mode 3 = 11.1MB/sec
PIO Mode 4 = 16.6MB/sec
DMA Single-word Mode 0 = 2.1MB/sec
DMA Single-word Mode 1 = 4.2MB/sec
DMA Single-word Mode 2 = 8.3MB/sec
DMA Multi-word Mode 0 = 4.2MB/sec
DMA Multi-word Mode 1 = 13.3MB/sec
DMA Multi-word Mode 2 = 16.7MB/sec
Ultra DMA Mode 0 = 16.7MB/sec
Ultra DMA Mode 1 = 25MB/sec
Ultra DMA Mode 2 (aka UDMA/33, ATA-33) = 33.3MB/sec
Ultra DMA Mode 3 = 44.4MB/sec
Ultra DMA Mode 4 (aka UDMA/66, ATA-66, Ultra ATA/66)
66.7MB/sec with an 80-pin UDMA cable and compatible controller, 33.3MB/sec otherwise
Ultra DMA Mode 5 (aka UDMA/100, ATA-100, Ultra ATA/100)
100MB/sec with an 80-pin UDMA cable and compatible controller, 33.3MB/sec otherwise
Ultra DMA Mode 6 (aka UDMA/133, ATA-133, Ultra ATA/133, SATA/150)
133MB/sec with an 80-pin UDMA cable and compatible controller, 150MB/sec with a Serial ATA cable and compatible controller, 33.3MB/sec otherwise
Try benchmarking again using an 80-pin IDE cable, having the SSD plugged in by itself as the only drive on the cable, and making sure in Windows hardware manager, system BIOS, etc., that the fastest possible transfer mode (probably DMA) is set for the IDE controller.
I was thinking about the same when I see the figures that crystal thing gives. DMA is probably not ticked in proprieties of the sdd of the device manager.
@@RubberGopher i810 chipset have only ATA66. Even then will benefit from enabling DMA and maybe using a 80 wires cable. The default mode is PIO4 for IDE in Win9x, DMA was optional to activate.
MJD said that it was single drive, the optical drive also, so one drive/channel.
^ what WInston said! the BIOS settings alone could be whats bottlenecking, but the cable and sharing with the DVD drive absolutely make it worse
@@RubberGopher that’s 80-wire, not pin. 80-pin is SCSI ONLY!
@@sebastian19745 810-L is ATA33 only. But yes, his board should be 810E which is ATA66.
Have you people thought about what a true hero the spinning drive in the 5$ W98 PC is? The amount of software and complete OS installation thrown at it these last years on this channel is certainly no slouch, and it was already an old part to begin with! It deserves a memorial (as well as being used somehow as long as it will endure).
There are adapters you can buy (or even 3D print) to adapt a 2.5" drive to mount in a 3.5" bay. That would have made this a lot easier.
My computer is full of 3d printed adapters, 2.5" drives in 3.5" slots and 3.5" hdds in 5.25" slots. :D
I'd say the impromptu sticky tape method worked wonderfully.
@@Entrepid83 Yes, it did, and I've done the same thing myself with SSDs a few times, I was just pointing out that one of the adapters would have made for a better permanent solution, since Michael made a point of stating how the SSD didn't fit correctly.
Even without the proper adapter you can still drill a few holes in the sheet metal. Just be sure not to do this when hardware is installed and to vacuum it after. You can probably guess how I know hidden metal particles can cause problems.
Michael you've become my comfort RUclipsr recently, I love your voice and your content, these videos are pure bliss.
Thank you so much! Glad you like the videos : )
You really should be getting higher transfer rates. Make sure DMA is enabled in Windows or else you're stuck with PIO transfer rates. And if both motherboard and hard disk support ATA 66 or higher, you need an 80 pin cable to make it work.
It seems to be the worst-case PIO 0 or PIO 1 which provides the speed of an 80s computer. I'm confident that his PC can handle UDMA2 (UDMA/33).
Exactly my thinking
@@InfCloud Calm down, not everyone is as old and geeky as we are :D
@@cptcrogge playing with an windows 98 PC in 2021 is a proof of beeing a geek ;-)
@@WorkerBeeEurope True.
The low speed could be caused by DMA not being enable. I would check and see if the newest/latest chipset drivers are installed first , especially for the IDE Controller. Then make sure DMA is enabled in the BIOS and Driver. PhilsComputerLab has a video called --> How to enable DMA mode in Windows 95 or 98.
Druaga1 would be proud of you!
Just needed to open with Hey Smokers
@@Krutonium I don't think I'm ready for that level of crossover just yet.
@@Krutonium Hey Smokers, Michael here.
he just needs to start cussing and making 1 hour vids.
Yes, but MJD cuts out the parts where things go wrong and he tries to fix it which is essentilaly the best parts of the video ;/
Make sure you religiously backup your WD Blue ssd. The 512GB one I bought for my laptop bricked itself with absolutely no warning signs. Could never do a data recovery on it since it became aabsolutely undetectable. Replaced it with a Samsung 1TB.
"This drive currently has an installation of Windows 10 on it"
$5 Windows 10 PC
This channel is such a refreshing blend of nerdy, creativity, and exploration
You probably need to enable UDMA, there should be a driver for Win98.
What he said.... back in the day this made a difference.
Probably. Intel had chipset drivers for win98 I think ... 6.3 something. There are drivers for NT4 (intel application accelerator) that I used to install and that would enable dma under NT4, that would make the system to load a lot faster. I also think it's just a matter of thinking DMA under the hdd's properties, win9x wouldn't enable it by default.
Intel810 has ata 100 but you are using 40pin ata33 cable and it limits performance. On ata 100 there should be a diffirence, access time of ssd make a lot, but with such tranfers its totally limited.
Edit : btw my 32MB sdcard @SD to IDE has transfers around 25MB/s and windows 98 and XP are much more reponsive and load faster (xp more) if I compare to propably the same 80GB seagate.
Windows 10 could not boot on W98 pc cause propably you was using uefi boot, gpt partition table etc :)
@@pawe3839 Yep. 80 wire cable will give more performance. Even so, the 40 wire cable should allow udma2 and give better performance than the figures shown.
@@pawe3839 Windows 10 (even 32-bit) won’t boot on anything that doesn’t support the NX/XD bit. So that excludes anything older than (some) Prescott Pentium 4s and Athlon 64s.
*applies for a job* ''what are your qualities?" "well yes i watched michael MJD's videos so i know what not to do"
There are PCI addon cards with SATA ports that could enable you to use the SSD more efficiently. Either way, should keep the ssd.
Pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. A single drive on a single ide channel will be faster than any pci card version. These cards were meant to add extra storage to a maxed out machine.
Things to speed up the drive, make sure DMA is enabled in the disk controller in device manager, move to a 80 wire IDE cable or just find a PCI SATA card.
Those are your only options really.
Michael MJD with another banger of a video! i love watching these tech videos all the time, keep up with the great work!
Thanks so much!
You should redo it with a pci to SATA card like a promise S150
Pci would be slower I believe. Pci shares bus speed with other cards. Ide is dedicated 133 bus.
That's what I was thinking, however others say it would actually be slower, not sure here.
@@LeoInterVir IDE still runs over the PCI bus.
@@stonent pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. Pcie is not pci.
@@LeoInterVir I think you are repeating facts without actually absorbing the information here. You see how your second comment contradicts your first after stonent reminds you of how you're wrong. if you don't know what you talking about then DON'T
Yay I’ve been really looking forward to this Video
I take it grandpa 98's feeling better
I am watching this video at the moment on you
same
I really miss you bro...
My boy Microsoft did u dirty, u were the best OS THEY COULD HAVE RE MADE U FOR 2021 but we got windows 10 instead WE LOVE U XP
"7733 days old" - Norton 2000
I was thinking when you're going to post this video :)
2:34 You can search to buy 3.5 to 2.5 hdd/ssd bracket. More easy to fix it in place.
There is an enable DMA checkbox option on the device manager for the disk drive. Turn that on if not already and run the test again.
He's like Druaga1 but he (MJD) still uploads consistently :flushed:
This comment reminds me of "r/JonTron". Basically the members and moderators took over the subreddit and changed it to Scott the Woz subreddit.
:flushed:
:flushed:
Hey smokers...
What's flushed you zoomers?
I actually have an adapter so I can put a sata ssd in my windows 98 build too! Keep up the good videos!!
Make sure DMA transfers are enabled in device manager. otherwise you're going to have a bad bad time
Good video! The bottleneck might be in the IDE cable, which looks like a 40-conductor. Have you tried an 80-conductor (still 40 pin) ribbon cable? I found myself using an old 40-conductor where an 80-conductor was supported, and learned the 80-conductor allows the motherboard to use better protocols for communicating to/from disks. It went from something like ATA/66 to ATA/166 protocol, or something along those lines. Throughput increased significantly without changing any disks
I do actually still have a Windows 98 PC, its actually a Toshiba Satellite 330cds from 1998. Still works fine today after almost 23 years and with its original 4 gb hard drive.
i have been waiting for this for such a long time
Thanks :D
What I absolutely enjoy about your videos is whenever there's a time lapse. The music definitely reminds me of Boneworks because of how it's played. As much as I enjoy Murphy's Law bombing your attempts the time lapse is just as amazing.
There are adapters to mount SSDs to so they can get mounted into a larger drive bay. Some SSDs came with them, one of the ones I bought did anyway.
It's funny that he knows there is a SATA adapter but doesn't know about the SSD adapter. Guess he doesn't use google?
@Robert Pirlot Uh.. I'm fully aware of 2.5 inch to 3.5 inch adapters. Just because it isn't mentioned in the video doesn't mean I don't know about it. Don't jump to conclusions.
Well considering how tight the drives are ATM I think that a 3'5 drive adapter would probably not fit or get way too close to the other drive
This project has some Druaga1 vibes! 🔥
needs more weed
Could you get hold of a SATA -> PCI adapter? I think PCI should be faster than the PATA interface. Worth a try at least?
Up to a hypothetical 133MB/s (shared across all PCI devices). But I am not aware of any PCI storage devices, so the best you could hope for would be a PCI PATA controller with a higher throughput than the motherboard interface. Not really worth it I would say.
PCI is slower than IDE running at 133.
If it was pci-e then you would be correct.
You really think a drive can boot from PCI?... never heard of it.
@@garyr7027 Si, podrías hacerlo con una SATA Raid Array Card Sil3114, tiene controladores para Windows 98.
@@garyr7027 Pretty sure it did in the old SCSI days (think Intel servers), so why not IDE?
9:44 woah that Linux installation is pretty good for formatting drives
I just boot my computer from the windows 7 setup dvd and format it from there lol
Do you have the UltraDMA patch installed? That could be what's holding back performance both on the HDD and the SSD.
Plus, your IDE cable seems to be 40-pin 40-wire, not 40-pin 80-wire. That could also be at play here?
Cheers!
80-wire matters for anything at or above ATA/66 (UDMA/66). But ie found best results using the 80-wire with any STATA to IDE adapter.. so UDMA/33 & slower is fine for 40-wire
also need the Rom-Bios patch for 200Gigs limit
@@BrianMartin2007 And if you think about it, old hard drives used to run up against the rotational speed of the platters and the speed of movement of the heads and the read-write speed of the sector. SSD-flash drives will still have higher speed and read speed will be linear throughout the entire space.
and yes - the hard drive will "rest" on the cable transmission speed, but still it will be much higher than the one that the hard drive itself gave
did you enable DMA in the device manager? that made a huge difference back in the day on 9x machines when it came to drive transfer speeds and cpu utilization when hitting the drive
IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS
Did you check the "DMA" setting in the device manager->disk drives->generic ide disk blah blah. Coincidentally I installed Windows 98 on an old computer on Saturday and as I was slowly copying some large files to the hard disk, I suddenly remembered the DMA setting was always off by default and it always made an insanely big difference in speed when I switched it on.
Yess an update on the 5$ Windows 98 PC! Imaging replacing the parts with modern pc parts. That'd be cool.
then it won't be a 98 pc though
@@Gmodfan750 did I ask?
@@Gmodfan750 look I get that you are in kindergarten but you can take out and reput those parts. It's not permanent 🙄
@@Gmodfan750 also use some common sense
You should keep a roll of Velcro Tape on hand for moments like this. lol
I think you copied my comment because I commented That first.
@@bloxycola8272 I didn't look at other comments. I guess we think alike.
@@Tall_Order iddkk,kk
YES MJD! *THIS* is THE VIDEO I've been waiting for, _for actual years_ to be done with this PC.
Biggups to you!
👍😬
EDIT: What to do next with the SSD? Well, of course the answer is --> Install *Windows 95* on the SSD!
[It _can_ be done, and would make for a great video!]
I think I recognize you from Drauga1's channel. Are you frequently a top commenter on his videos or do I recognize you from his Windows 9x multiboot stream chat?
It could very well be both, either way it's great to see a fellow Druaga1 viewer, I hope you have a great day!
With a compatible conversion PCB you can use an SSD with any OS. It's not even a question.
And then windows 3.1!
This is an amazing step forward for the Windows 98 Boot speedrun community. I dare say SSDs will become the new meta.
You need to enable DMA access to get faster speeds.
I think in 98 it was disabled by standard.
I got the Dell Optiplex 170L for 5$. "The 5$ Windows XP PC". Also it runs Windows 7 and last Ubuntu 32 bit releases very nicely. Now it has Android x86 KitKat
Those speeds I get when it fallbacks to PIO Mode 0. Try setting it as DMA, it makes a huge difference.
i thought the same this looks like a PIO bottleneck .Because PIO uses cpu u get same transfer speeds
Wait I didn't know that was possible? I'm watching a video about a topic i didn't know was possible. Awesome video, Michael!
Back in the early 2000, i was repairing computers at our school and at the part of the restart process, I saw a ghost lady at the reflection in the monitor standing behind my back and hair at the back of my started to rise. I quickly ran outside and meet up with other staff and when we went back the E-library was so cold. Never went there at night. Great video dude! Made me remember my tech service days.
Wow. I'm pretty sure I have that same type of SSD in my desktop computer with Windows 11 installed!
Hi micheal
keep the SSD because you will never have to replace it again.
I've personally had more SSDs fail than HDDs over the last 4 decades.
@@----.__
Inpossable
@@----.__ were they like early 10 dollar chinese ssd's? if so, makes sense.
@@santelite5935 I've had an OCZ and two Kingston SSDs fail. I've had one Seagate HDD fail.
The SSDs failed in my workstation with very high read/write cycles. OCZ was circa 2012, Kingstons were both in the last 4 years. They weren't used for passive storage which lead to their failure.
Seagate HDD failure was late 90's and never bought one again, never had a WD HDD fail to date. That was in a "normal" desktop PC.
@@kevin46942 I'm sorry if you think what I've experienced in the real world is impossible, but like I mentioned, I've had three SSDs fail since I started using them and only one HDD.
I'm a computer systems engineer, not a "noob".
Make sure you've selected the DMA check box on the hard drive in device manager, and check the performance tab in the system control panel to enable 32bit disk access and 32bit file access. Then re-run the test. It will certainly be faster. The Intel 810 chip supports UDMA 33 or 66 depending on the implementation Gateway went with.
Michael, have you enabled Ultra DMA on the IDE controller's settings? AFAIK, the Windows 98's default setting for IDE cards is to use Programmed I/O, which uses the CPU to control all the I/O operations. In this case, the CPU can be the real bottleneck.
(if no or no more slots for 2.5 ssd available)
Just put the drive vertical, draw a marker on straight where the holes are, measure distance between holes and mark same distance between inital mark and measured distance for each hole, drill and vile for best method. (use anti-statics between hole and screw ofc)
Use double sided tape for the lazy way more accessible if you dont have anitstatics for case.
Mash it anywhere for the extreme lazy way
I use all, depending on user input ':)
The cables you used seemed to be UDMA66 only.. I can be wrong, but look for the 80wire ones, and also you can enable UltraDMA mode in windows 98 which is not the default, philllabs did a video with ssd and was having a great performance with win98 overthere..
OK! That was FUN! Speed is astonishing!
I had soooo many flashbacks during this video. I may have had that exact Gateway PC as my first "real" computer back in 1997.
That moment when you notice this SSD could be faster than the ram of this computer...
Heya, nice demonstration of what's possible nowadays, if not just using CF cards (but those won't be accessible in some years I guess, photographers have like CD express and SD now I think, if not internal UFS).
It's enchanting to see good old systems being used again.
You have a very calm and clear voice, good to hear.
Some hints/questions:
- I won't pull off the protective cover of the adapter. If the glue may get loose, it can destroy the controller, maybe even the SSD in some years.
I'd have tried a simple plastics strap.
- In GPartEd you don't even need to delete the partitions, if just making a new MBR partition table layout. This will overwrite the partition table anyways.
Unformat and Data Rescue 3 can still recover files.
- I think the BIOS limit for late 9x machines is 128 GiB / 137 GB. Some older BIOS had like 32 GiB limits (there's f.e. late IDE drives with 32 GiB jumpers). Even older ones like 512 MiB, but we could partition drives bigger in those, some did use Seagate Tools or similar back then with 1.2 GiB.
- Btw., I found out that f.e. Pentium III-M 1200, Core2Duo U7600 and Core i7-9xxM laptops all can't boot Ventoy with no extra partition, if using a 160 GB HDD or 256 GB Samsung FIT USB 3.0 stick.
But it can, if you add a partition at 128 GiB / 137 GB position using the Ventoy tool. The Ventoy boot partition is in the middle.
If old PCs can't boot from USB, then Plop Boot Manager booted from 1st or 2nd? stage boot from Floppy/CD/PCI ROM, may be able to boot the old PC via USB from 2nd? or 3rd boot stage.
This would be worth a try. I won't flash Plop into my PCI cards ROMs, tho, may be too risky. But Pentium III and 4 mobile hardware I could boot from USB using the Plop boot CD.
It doesn't always work, but sometimes.
Another cool thing with that data partition is, I put some portable Linux AppImage/Flatpak like new Firefox version or OpenRA and Windows PortableApps and extracted folders like Lemmings95 onto it, so any live distro can use those instantly from Linux live or HBCD, Strelec live and so on.
UBCD, HBCD and Ventoy changed my life like VMs did. Those tools made things so much easier.
- I found a minimal 12 MB W98 live iso on archive org, but haven't tried to alter it adding some apps and games. It would be very interesting, because anything I knew of earlier was Linux and Win PE live based and newer. Drivers will miss ofc., but for some 2D games it's enough I think.
- What we always have donewas to copy the W98 CD's content to the disk to make later installation of drivers way faster and never need the CD again.
You could copy it even before the setup to save some time.
- Which system is this PC using? I remember we had like 10 MB/s back then w/ AMD K6-2/III? 380 and Pentium III 700 and 1000B, later 30 MB/s with a faster HDD and I think UDMA33.
- Is this due to not using DMA mode? You have to enable that in Windows to make it wayyy faster, even with HDDs. Expect like 10 or 30 MB/s at least.
This 850 EVO SSD can reach 30 MB/s at 4k in a fast dualcore PC, cheap SSD will reach like 10 MB/s, but still are way faster than HDDs ofc.
2nd thought is to use a 80 pin cable ofc. UDMA66 and later versions were such an improvement back then.
- Our AMD K6-2/III? 380 MHz PC needed exactly 5 s to boot W95 and 30 s to boot W98 or 98 SE with I think a 10 MB/s HDD. We thought those 30 s were slowwww.
Interestingly W10 is even slower on such an SSD, when disabling the hybrid boot mode (because of file integrity reasons, if it crashes, you won't have access to NTFS and even a 2nd W8.1/10 installation will damage your copied files, if you use hybrid boot mode. That's why I always turn that off and be on the secure side.
thought this was druaga1 and was confused when i heard Michael start talking lol! Great video tho!
Your content lately has been reaally good! Really starting to like this channel!!
fInAlLy
but seriously, this is what i was thinking of when you posted this video!
You need to adjust the PATA/IDE UDMA bios settings, and install chipset drivers, ensure the drive is set to PATA/IDE UDMA and not PIO
I forgot all about that little drum animation.... mindblown.
You could put in a Sata PCI card if that would work. (Wild idea dont know what the mobo is havent watched much)
You need a decent card with BIOS else it wont be bootable
Pci is connected to a bus where it's speed is shared amongst all pci slots. Having a pci sata card will have diminished max speed if any pci slot is populated. Both ide and pci are connected to the Southbridge. Pcie is not pci. A single drive on a single ide channel will be faster than any pci card version.
@@LeoInterVir And to think we used to do RAID 0 with PCI IDE cards with great effectiveness back in the early 2000's (like the Promise FastTrack 100). PCI bus can handle it. Might get some slow downs if using all 100 megabits (12.5 MegaBytes) of the ethernet, but even then it will be much faster than ATA-33 speeds he is getting now. PCI bus can handle 133MB/s. Looked like an AGP video card, so that shouldn't be an issue. I've had success with PCI SATA RAID cards in comparison to onboard ATA100 IDE on my old Abit KT7-E Athlon machine (I really do miss that awesome old blue motherboard I spent WAY too much time overclocking and modding). This was done in Win98 SE, as I didn't change OS's until I bought XP close to 2003. I highly doubt what he has on the PCI bus would use enough throughput to cause the PCI bus to be slower than an onboard ATA-66 IDE slot.
@@Skligmund
I didn't say it wouldn't work or be effective at all.
His bad adapter, cable, drive or settings does not change max speeds of pci or ide.
Pci slots share bandwidth to the Southbridge.
IDE channels go direct to Southbridge.
Any on-board audio, networking, or video on older motherboards would have likely shared the pci bus in addition to user add-in cards.
The primary purpose of those cards beeing mentioning is to add additional storage or redundancy to a system that is otherwise populated on ide.
If speed is wanted then scsi on the motherboard would sure be the fastest.
Using a compact flash card makes way more sense. You can easily remove it from the PC to image it as a backup. You can even mount it for external access.
You should get a PCIe to SATA card for the $5 windows 98 pc
You mean PCI, right? The 98 PC is too old for PCIe
You may need a sperate UltraATA PCI card, to really get those drives the speed they deserve. I put one in my Powermac G4 (mainly because of its drive size limitation) and it works great. Im pretty sure I saw more of those that supported Windows than mac, so you should be able to find plenty.
I think that “sticky” was a thermal pad for the chips on that adapter, also they do sell 2.5 to 3.5 adapters for cheap online.
There is a rack adapter for 2.5” to 3.5” so you can keep the board protection in place
Yup, that was my first thought.
Expected this video to start with "Hey smokers" ngl
Booting off a fresh install on a HDD is going to have all the files in a concentrated and defragmented way. But I imagine the seek times for very spread out/fragmented files on the HDD will start to show much larger differences than on the SSD.
As I have stated and many others, activate DMA, but try it on the harddrive too as that will probably up the speed on the HDD too.
And it will reduce the boot time with abou 90% too.
Also try a 32 bit Linux like Debian ;)
I remember installing a Tekram IDE PCI cache controller and did absolute wonders for my 486.
please make a video about the history of windows 2000 development
Had a lot of good time on my 98 computer. The Gateway logo - haven't seen that in years!
would enabling DMA make anything faster? it's something you always have to manually enable
Черт возьми, прошла целая вечность с тех пор, как я в последний раз использовал windows 95. Спасибо, парень, что вернул старые воспоминания из детства.
Next video: "Installing an Intel Core i3 in the $5 Windows 98 PC!"
Did you activate DMA transfer for the drive? In 9x, you have to do it manually after a fresh installation or when adding a new drive. Look for the checkbox in the drive's properties in Device Manager. It essentially removes the CPU bottleneck from harddisk transfers.
When you apply a legendary upgrade to a common item
the song that plays on timelapses makes my head Bob everytime
@MJD, you’re stuck in PIO Mode 4. Need to enable DMA in bios or Windows
If you benchmark with HDtune you'd see the the "access time" (lag) is near zero on an SSD. It's this "lack of lag" that makes a big difference between an SSD and an HDD. A low buck solution (compared to buying an SSD) is to "short stroke" an HDD with a small partition, this can be measured with HDtune Pro to see the reduction in "access time" (lag) by making a different size small partitions on a HDD.
Recently installed an SD adapter in my free Windows 98 PC. No idea if its any faster since the original HDD didn't work, but its nice being able to easily swap out the card.
Well, if you are low on mounting holes for your SATA SSDs, what I do is just attach the SATA data and power connectors and just keep it inside the case simply. It doesn’t have any moving parts so it’s very safe to keep one like this.
I bought a set of hard drive caddy's thinking they were standard size ones, but turns out they were 2.5" to standard adapters. Skills.
Ive always loved those drums microsoft used when Windows 98 updates system settings on these installs.
Me too! Me too..
That inner pain in my heart seeing you create an 8000mb partition >.
Parted Magic has a secure erase option that's used for SSDs. It's best to wipe the drive this way so it resets the entire drive instead of rewriting over the old data which is what happens when you just deleted the partitions.
That will just short the life of the ssd needlessly
How you mounted the SSD totally reminded me of a 486 PC I installed a 1.2 GB HDD in back in early 1996. It was in a Packard Bell desktop PC that was only meant to have 1 HDD installed in it. I ended up installing the 2nd HDD in it using double sided tape. The 2nd HDD ended up being taped to the top of the PSU. It was janky as heck but it worked like a charm!
That's cool, but it would have been pretty easy to drill new holes in the top of the case to mount the drive, right?
the white sitcky thing you removed is there to stop the adapter from possibly touching a 3.5" drive you might have installed and having it short out on the adapter and the hdd when it flops around
Nice!
Fyi, there are cheap adapter brackets available to mount these 2,5inch discs on a 3.5 or even 5.25inch slots.
Including those kind of top/bottom screws!
Awesome video, Michael!
I would insulate that IDE to SATA bridge board with electrical tape to prevent it shorting out against the computer case
The part we all wanted to see was the real-time speed of install and first boot.
Easy to fix the screwhole issue with a drill tbh, but awesome either way!
Even super old PATA (IDE) UDMA2 (UDMA/33) ports handle 30MB per second just fine, most Pentium 4 boards support even ATA133 (133MB/sec). Hence PATA was never a bottleneck for HDD from that timeframe. Ensure that UDMA is enabled.
I use for some Windows 98 Pentium 1 laptop a CF -> IDE adapter and get 25MB/sec average with some old 4GB Sandisk Ultra CF card. It boots up within 3 seconds.
I bought a gateway with the same case in 1999. I was a P3 500mhz with 512MB of ram, 13 GB HDD, and a DVD / CDR drive, my first PC when i was 18, was 1400 bucks then, but came w monitor keyboard mouse, and boston speakers w sub. Man I thought it was awsome back then